Im an FAA ATP pilot, and I hate the JAA.need your comments!

[ronchonner]

Hello,
I ve just passed my ATP license in the USA after 7 years of flying.(I start in 94, and the aviation market was not so good than now)
After 7 years of hard working, I have the opportunity to fly some small turboprop like Caravan or twin Otter.
I m not considering to come back to Europe for an expensive validation but I want to continue to fly and make money.
I m a european citizen, stuck outside of europe without work permit, but I bet you, than when they market will need pilots, I will be the first one to be hired because I possess an ICAO FAA.
Have you checked the magazines? airlines ask now for a FAA ATP or JAR Frozen ATP...
I spend 30'000$ for my 1500hours and I ve flown worlwide.Do you think really than guys like me, will come back to europe to pay crap european schools when we can fly turboprop or jet?
I would prefer to pay a type rating on A320 or B737 than to pass some stupid JAR tests?

I would like to read your comments, guys!

[EggBeta]

Ok, you are considering going back to Europe, or you are not considering going back to Europe?
If you go back to Europe, I'm afraid your FAA qualifications mean diddly squat, what does mean alot is that you have extensive flying experience which will stand you in very good stead for an airline job when you finish the JAR ground and flight exams!

[JJflyer]

Oh yes...

I know what you mean. I was in the same situation that you are. My workpermit expired and I was out of luck , no chance of reneval.
How about an JAA validation, surely 1000 hours of multi-engine P1 ( PIC ) and an FAA ATP is worth something. Well it is not as I have learned.

I lucked out though. Did manage to get a job flying with FAA licence in Europe. But as this is no job to make a career out of I am facing either a 6 month groundschool and all the checkrides in order to obtain a full JAA ATPL required for most European jobs.

Other option is to have over 1500 hours of FAR/JAR 25 time after the issuance of FAA ATP. No problem since I am flying a B727. But with the current rate of flying it will take me 10 years to get to the requirment... hahahahahahahahah.

Yes indeed it sucks. So I drank the bitter drink and decided to go the hard way.First Commercial validation and then the groundschools.


JJ

[Flare_you_fool!]

JJ,
If you would be so kind could you explain the 1500 hours FAR 25 comment.
What will this give you as far as a JAA licence
Thanks
FYF

[JJflyer]

I'll clarify a little...
When I went for a JAA licence I was told that the requirment for a full ATPL validation is 1500 FAR/JAR 25 time. This has to be obtained after the issuance of the original ATP whether US ,Canadian or South African.
What would that give... Well a validation that is valid a year at the time. Still you have to pass a type rating checkride.

JJ

[ronchonner]

hello
i m the guy who posted the:"I ma faa pilot and i hate..."
ok, to clarify some points:to obtain a ATP JAR validation from an foreingn atp.you must have an ATP+500 hours of B737,a320,ATR42...(jar25)
actually, the market is not so good, but in the time, IF there is a pilot shortage, I m sure, it will be:"ATP and t/rating (no hours)."for a validation.
A validation is valid for 1 year to 2 years (actually), during these 2 yaears you will have to pass ground school an flight tests, if you want to continue to fly in europe after these 2 years of "probation".
but, heh!!!who has the time to fly for an airline and pass all the atp written tests in same time?that s the catch!
I will be soon 35 years old with an ATP.
do you really think I will go back to europe in a JAR ground schools to spend thousand of dollars (convert in your national money) without a guarantee to get a job after?
EU schoools are just interested by money, and it s scandalous to see all these advertises like the one from Oxford:"we don t train you for a license , but for a career!!!"showing a guy with 4 strips epaulettes (I ve 4 strips cuz i fly a turboprop as a capt and no I do nt come from Oxford, but i followed the US basic training FAA cpl,ifr,cfi,skydivers,freight transport...
now, My advise: If you want be a pilot,make your baggages and go in a country where you can fly in a free sky like US, canada...
log time, take the jobs, even the small one on cessna 152(be a contractor if no work permit), you will not probably fly a Boeing right after your training, but I can guarantee you, you will fly and learn what be a pilot means.(fly night in a 0/0 visibilite, shooting ILS or VOR with minimums ceiling,surrounded by thunderstorm (I ve radar weather equipped),I ve to deal with the company cuz they force me to fly in icing condition...)
if you want fly a boeing or an A320, yes, go spend all your money in one of these crapt schools like Oxford, i will have a yellow tatoo:JAR approved, no money , no experience,no hours, and maybe the chance to be hired by an airline...
oh! one thing i would to say:if there is a shortage of pilots:EU airline will hire US or australian pilot because they fly, and they have the experience(i saw my ex CFI on embraer 145!...
guys with JAR 250 hours, your resume will be the last one...
yes, this situation makes me VOMIT!!!!
i wish you good luck and take care of your money...keep it for the basics:food,house...and fly safe!

[davere van leatherboot]

How did you pass you atp exams mate you can't even type or spell.Mind you thats why the Caa would only give you a ppl.

Stop moaning and sit the exams and do the flying like the rest of us.. after all we don't get a free ride in the states.

[ronchonner]

I m french, it s why i do nt spell correctly in english!i speak better than i write...
I passed my atp in the USA,1600h,300 multi,150 turbine.who give a s... of your written tests, I ma pilot , not an JAA answer machine...JAR written tests is for people who can not fly a plane and prefer to stay with momy at home!

an ICAO ATP pilot

[TipTop]

ronchonner, If the CAA and Europe made it easy to convert foreign licenses, everybody would do it because it's cheaper and easier, resulting in the CAA having no control over the standards of training.
Whether you agree or not, there is a difference in training between the FAA & the CAA. I'm not even going to bother to discuss which one I feel is better.
However, I do feel that there should be a more realistic medium on license conversions, but certainly not handed to you on a plate just because you have commercial experience.
I don't think for a minute that the CAA & Europe will drop it requirements if there becomes a shortage of Professional Pilots, in fact, the airlines will recognize this possible shortfall and start recruiting for sponsored cadets.
I can't help but mention the fact that there sounds a lot of resentment in your postings, as davere van leatherboo said, like the rest of us your going to have to get on and do it and chill.
I hope you work it out…….

[ronchonner]

if airline sponsore cadets, so why do you think you will get a job in an airline??
Airline prefer guys with 0 hours, 20-24 years old.
and what all the schools in europe do? they train pilots,ok!!! and then what??
I know few guys who found a flying job after their FAA to JAR convertion .and they found jobs in the worse airlines.
a convertion, ok! but not from the begining!
why do i have to do the same convertion like a guy with 250 hours and no commercial flight experience.
by the way:CAA is for the civil aviation authorithy, i do nt care of the CAA...if i have to convert,I would prefer to go to Ireland, but for now, I could have jobs worldwide because I m an ICAO ATP pilot!

[JJflyer]

Hey there Davere Van ledersomething...

Your automatic assumption that a person has inferior intellectual capabilities if he makes mistakes in his written english is in one word, retarded.
If you where trying to prove a point you managed to do it.
Again I have to apologise for any mistakes in this post as english is not my mothertongue and I am less that perfect in it.
Still I am willing to bet that you would not be able to read nor write a word let alone a sentence in my language.
So why don't we try to keep this thread as " civilised " as possible and stick to the facts.

Fact is that JAA is also less than perfect... If the intention is to supporrt pilot training within EU they are failing miserably.
Cost for flight training is increasing as well as fuel prices. Also we must not forget all the " Noise sensitive areas" that where build near airports that had been there for years. How about all those big international airports that do not want GA airplanes on their ramps... At the same time smaller airports are being "Redeveloped " into industrial parks and/or residential areas.

This is a very common EU problem. Left hand does not have a clue what right hand is doing. If the idea is to keep money and people in EU approach they are using now is wrong.
General Aviation is still a big supplier of pilots to the airline industry. It needs to be supported rather than the present attempt to kill it alltogether.

JJ

[ronchonner]

i agree with you JJ flyer...
in fact europe is killing general aviation.
they make the schools happy and now i m thinking to open a school and to be approved JAA.
I will give only ground school, it costs:tables, chairs, and 1 board and i will charge my students a fortune to get their :JAA approved stamp!you know, the small yellow star with the JAA aproved inscription...
they SS did the same thing during the 2nd war!!!

[AMEX]

Ronchonner (moaning): Je ne saisis pas le but de ton post. Si tu ne veux pas travailler en europe alors pourquoi t'interresser aux licences euro. En revanche, si tu le veux alors tu devras te conformer a la regle. J'ai comme beaucoup d'autres une licence FAA en plus d'une CAA. DCA et la seule qui compte est celle qui me donne du boulot. Stop ronchonner an make your mind. TRANSLATION [ Ronchonner (-moaning-), I don't get your point, If you don't want to work in Europe why bother with Euro licences ?? In the contrary if you want to get a job here then you will have to comply with the rule. I, like you and many others, have an FAA licence,a CAA and a DCA one and the only one that matter is the one which will give you a job. Stop moaning and make up your mind. ]

------------------
If you can't save the engine...save the airframe :D

[ronchonner]

oui je ronchonne, mais en fait jattendss et je vole ailleurs...si il y a une reprise reel dans laviation, elle va se faire partout.
je vois que la situation est meilleure aux usa et je pense qu il y aura plus de place pour des pilotes qui ont des heures de vole.
Si les compagnies ont reellement besoin de pilotes, les pilote europeens a letranger seront les bienvenus pour voler en europe.
ce qui menerve cest de voire des gars avec 250h de vol, voler des jets parce que papa a payer.et cest celui qui paye le plus qui a le job...et vous etes tous en train de vous bouffer les uns les autres pour avoir un job minable de "gear and flaps operator" ou en train de sucer les feeses de votre instructeur pour qu il vous fassent une place dans une compagnie...jai envie de rentrer en europe mais je veux rester puceau du cul!!!

ATP pilot

[AMEX]

Sorry "Ronchonner" but you are getting quite rude. Obviously no argument. As far as eating each others bum (tranlating your expression), it ain't true since I am actually running the show in my company. Only a 10 to 15 K increase in salary will make me leave. Don't get me wrong, I love flying in the US but you aren't the only one with a good job (disappointing I am sure).

------------------
If you can't save the engine...save the airframe :D

[JJflyer]

Didn't want to see this thread deteriorate into a p.ssing contest.

To answer the question in the first post. You have 2 options: Either you accept the present situation and get through a groundschool, do the checkride and get your JAA licence. Or stay where you are and quit moaning about it.

Unfortunately the current way of affairs affects thousands of European pilots working on a non JAA licence and is a very big issue to these people. Not just a timeconsuming, but a big financial issue as well.

Even if JAA and FAA where talking at this time it would take a long time to get any solutions to this situation. However it needs to be addressed.

It does not make it any easier that most of officials have their own " Correct " way of enforcing these rules.

JJ

[ronchonner]

amex, i flew as a cfi too, and i know it s hard...but in switzerland, CFIs work in the airlines and it s hard to find an available cfi.in the USA, you have full time CFIs.i do nt know how it is in england...but to fly in switzerland just one hour, it took me 4 weeks to be on the agenda of an instructor (Scandalous!), **** , i gave up!too slow and i found a job on turboprop few weeks later.

as for the convertion, i prefer to wait and see what s going on outside of europe and in europe, I guess to many people just "panic" and pay big bucks to get a job before it s too late...(too late,whats too late???)
yes i m rude by my comments but i m not the guy who will take your house,car because you did nt find a job to reimburse your loan!!!

[TipTop]

JJFlyer, how could this thread not turn into a pi**ing contest. 'I'm a FAA ATP pilot, and I hate the JAA.....'
I find that offensive, he will solve nothing until he can communicate in a civil way!

TipTop out...........