RAF to deploy to civvy airports

[Finningley Boy]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/technology/raf-to-move-in-to-regional-airports-in-first-time-since-ww2-as-russia-tensions-mount/ar-

I think it could be argued despite this that the RAF has lost far too much real estate over the years.

FB

[GeeRam]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/technology/raf-to-move-in-to-regional-airports-in-first-time-since-ww2-as-russia-tensions-mount/ar-

I think it could be argued despite this that the RAF has lost far too much real estate over the years.

FB

Indeed....its quite shocking really how many front lines bases have closed in the past 30 years, 10 isn't it...?????
Plus, must be close to that number of second line bases gone as well, as well as the RAFG ones. That's an astonishingly high percentage in past 30 years.

[Asturias56]

Why do they need so may bases when the number of aircraft and people has plummeted?

A lot of the estate is still based on fighting WW2

[dctyke]

Why do they need so may bases when the number of aircraft and people has plummeted?

A lot of the estate is still based on fighting WW2

so they can try to justify so many air ranks?

[Diff Tail Shim]

Why do they need so may bases when the number of aircraft and people has plummeted?

A lot of the estate is still based on fighting WW2
Most Civvy airfields are WWII RAF airfields using the same runways!

[Finningley Boy]

Why do they need so may bases when the number of aircraft and people has plummeted?

A lot of the estate is still based on fighting WW2
You might just be missing the point, put it another way then, the RAF is too small. Supposedly the idea of utilizing civilian airports and airfields is a practical decision, there simply isn't enough airfield space to disperse, that's what the exercise is about.

FB

[Herod]

All very well, but what about the civilian infrastructure that is being placed in harm's way? Certain "others" might decide that obliterating the main terminal is justified because there are "enemy forces" There.

On the plus side, I suppose it would at least show the public that there is an Air Force.

[pr00ne]

Most Civvy airfields are WWII RAF airfields using the same runways!

No they are not!

[Finningley Boy]

All very well, but what about the civilian infrastructure that is being placed in harm's way? Certain "others" might decide that obliterating the main terminal is justified because there are "enemy forces" There.

On the plus side, I suppose it would at least show the public that there is an Air Force.
The first point you raise is surely a result of the afore mentioned loss of infrastructure? I imagine this may be the start of a long game, the problem is, how are we going to pay for any amount of retrenchment, digging in or even expansion by what ever degree.

FB

[Akrotiri bad boy]

As mentioned by Herod: "On the plus side, I suppose it would at least show the public that there is an Air Force".

I was shocked to discover our RAF is still a 24/7 operation. Last night Akro towers was left thrumming by the sound of an A400 Grizzly heading west from Leeming followed shortly by a Wokka heading north. All this military action on a Sunday night, a Bank Holiday Sunday at that!

[Finningley Boy]

No they are not!

Quite, no RAF Stations surviving from world war 2 are using the same runways!

FB

[serf]

Can’t open the link….are they coming to Turnhouse, Abbotsinch or Dyce?

[chevvron]

Quite, no RAF Stations surviving from world war 2 are using the same runways!

FB
Except Marham

[chevvron]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/technology/raf-to-move-in-to-regional-airports-in-first-time-since-ww2-as-russia-tensions-mount/ar-

I think it could be argued despite this that the RAF has lost far too much real estate over the years.

FB
Is it just me or does anyone else find the link won't open?

[El Grifo]

Won't open !

El Grifo

[ZH875]

RAF Woodvale hasn't changed much since WW2.

[papa_sierra]

Time for Finningley to be taken back into the fold !

[mopardave]

As mentioned by Herod: "On the plus side, I suppose it would at least show the public that there is an Air Force".

I was shocked to discover our RAF is still a 24/7 operation. Last night Akro towers was left thrumming by the sound of an A400 Grizzly heading west from Leeming followed shortly by a Wokka heading north. All this military action on a Sunday night, a Bank Holiday Sunday at that!
Not to mention the 5.15 am express (Globemaster) headed S.E. above Mopar Mansion on Saturday morning!! Imagine my surprise whilst gazing up through my velux whilst I was taking my obligatory old man's visit to the toilet........closely followed by an Atlas and two Chinooks!

[MPN11]

Except Marham
... and Northolt ...

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1416x936/northolt_1945_307e61cfa97e6e9e8c027b6827bdb5a2afbe87d5.jpg

[Chugalug2]

Different link, but possibly same story :-

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1661469/raf-jets-uk-airports-russia-ukraine-war

[Finningley Boy]

Except Marham

In so far as they use or have The runways which continue/continued were usually one, or perhaps two, or in the case of Marham, three, which were picked to be extended, sometimes doubled in length, usually as close to a 90/270 orientation as possible, but always an existing runway. There were usually three at least to pick from, but that became the main runway if it was 3,000' before, it was 6,000' or even 7,500' after. The V-Bomber stations had theirs' extended to 9,000'. All of this usually meant claiming more farmland. The main runway at Scampton required the A15 to be routed around it from its original north/south straight line, hence the bulge. But I'm not revealing anything new.:O

FB

[oldmansquipper]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1661469/raf-jets-uk-airports-russia-ukraine-war?fbclid=IwAR3zaLVw7xx6OzrcYN8ZKgjOtm7WeQk5nb2C3z7SsYFl1Dn 9PBZxdReBw6M

4kinell! 😱Heralding the return of Exercise Micky Finn? Ohhh errr missus!

Hey guys, you’ve got to be seriously ancient to remember them….

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x288/57b9e537_ff34_4475_bc2f_5e0d326473f1_e5ab3bf51f4e7580bb04ec1 b699ca676c421a373.jpeg
Not Mickey Finn but 50 Sqn on Ex Sunspot - I’m there in the ‘0’ somewhere...along with that nice Mr Stacey and a few others.

[Wetstart Dryrun]

I recall many of my colleagues deployed to civil airfields.

They also were allocated civil aeroplanes
And civil wonga.

They seemed happy

[ROC man]

... and Northolt ...

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1416x936/northolt_1945_307e61cfa97e6e9e8c027b6827bdb5a2afbe87d5.jpg
Barkston Heath?

[Shackman]

Chetwynd hasn't changed much!

[MPN11]

Barkston Heath?No, that’s definitely Northolt! 😎

[Herod]

Chetwynd hasn't changed much!

True, and it's still got the same runways!! :ok:

[air pig]

All very well, but what about the civilian infrastructure that is being placed in harm's way? Certain "others" might decide that obliterating the main terminal is justified because there are "enemy forces" There.

On the plus side, I suppose it would at least show the public that there is an Air Force.

If you get to the point of dispersing the force, there won't be any civi flying.

[MPN11]

If you get to the point of dispersing the force, there won't be any civi flying.… just commandeered civil ac moving personnel and equipment? Oh, and all that Reforger stuff that has to go somewhere.

[Flyhighfirst]

All very well, but what about the civilian infrastructure that is being placed in harm's way? Certain "others" might decide that obliterating the main terminal is justified because there are "enemy forces" There.

On the plus side, I suppose it would at least show the public that there is an Air Force.

Quite a lot of small countries have military and civilian airports mixed. The UK ceased to be a major player decades ago. Just waking up to reality.

[The Oberon]

Quite a lot of small countries have military and civilian airports mixed. The UK ceased to be a major player decades ago. Just waking up to reality.

Went to Palermo a few times with the Tanker Fleet, stayed in a Thompsons hotel. Always a good trip.

[FantomZorbin]

... and Newquay aka St Mawgan

[pr00ne]

Quite a lot of small countries have military and civilian airports mixed. The UK ceased to be a major player decades ago. Just waking up to reality.

What? An indigenous nuclear power, 65,000 ton aircraft carriers for 5th generation combat aircraft, nuclear powered hunter killer submarines, armed with cruise missiles, 9 Typhoon Squadrons, 3 F-35B Squadrons with more to come, developing Tempest, RC-135W Squadron, Shadow Squadron, 2 P-8A Posiedon Squadrons, 3 Chinook Squadrons, 2 Puma Squadrons, 2 Voyager AT/AAR Squadrons, 3 A400M Atlas Squadrons, C-17A Squadron, 3 Hawk T2 Squadrons, 2 Reaper Squadrons, Type 45 AAW Destroyers, Type 23 Frigates, developing and building Type 31 and 32 Frigates, autonomous Mine Countermeasures capability, Merlin MHA2, Wildcat MH2, Merlin HC4, Royal Marines, AH-64E Apache, SAS, Parachute Regiment, SBS, Challenger 3, Boxer, GMLRS, Sky Sabre, Ajax (!). UK forces deployed worldwide, on operations constantly for the last 30+ years, key NATO member, permanent member of the UN Security Council, key and leading European supporter to Ukraine providing lethal military hardware, military training and support...

Ceased to be a major player decades ago?

You are having a laugh and spouting utter nonsense.

[vascodegama]

Whether or not we are a major player is not the point. Having so few runways available is the problem so the idea of dispersal and operations from civilian airfields makes sense. Why not also take a leaf from the Swedish (and others) book and look at road bases.

I guess the reason we have 2 aircraft carriers is the hope that at least one will work.

[trim it out]

What? An indigenous nuclear power, 65,000 ton aircraft carriers for 5th generation combat aircraft, nuclear powered hunter killer submarines, armed with cruise missiles, 9 Typhoon Squadrons, 3 F-35B Squadrons with more to come, developing Tempest, RC-135W Squadron, Shadow Squadron, 2 P-8A Posiedon Squadrons, 3 Chinook Squadrons, 2 Puma Squadrons, 2 Voyager AT/AAR Squadrons, 3 A400M Atlas Squadrons, C-17A Squadron, 3 Hawk T2 Squadrons, 2 Reaper Squadrons, Type 45 AAW Destroyers, Type 23 Frigates, developing and building Type 31 and 32 Frigates, autonomous Mine Countermeasures capability, Merlin MHA2, Wildcat MH2, Merlin HC4, Royal Marines, AH-64E Apache, SAS, Parachute Regiment, SBS, Challenger 3, Boxer, GMLRS, Sky Sabre, Ajax (!). UK forces deployed worldwide, on operations constantly for the last 30+ years, key NATO member, permanent member of the UN Security Council, key and leading European supporter to Ukraine providing lethal military hardware, military training and support...

Ceased to be a major player decades ago?

You are having a laugh and spouting utter nonsense.
Personally, I would argue that we are a player on the big table, but not a major one. Spread thinly in tiny footprints coupled with some poor serviceability across many fleets means our ability to force project globally is limited. We don't have much of a reserve either, that's for sure.

[ZH875]

Whether or not we are a major player is not the point. Having so few runways available is the problem so the idea of dispersal and operations from civilian airfields makes sense. Why not also take a leaf from the Swedish (and others) book and look at road bases.

I guess the reason we have 2 aircraft carriers is the hope that at least one will work.

Well the one that works isn't the Prince Of Wales


The Royal Navy aircraft carrier HMS Prince of Wales is limping back to shore after breaking down shortly after embarking for exercises in the US.The carrier left from Portsmouth Naval Base on Saturday before an "emerging mechanical issue" occurred.
On Monday, the warship was moving slowly from the south east of the Isle of Wight towards Stokes Bay, Gosport.
It is understood the sheltered area will make it easier for divers to examine the damage.

[Krystal n chips]

Great news for the profits of all the junk food brands at the chosen airports then !

[Doctor Cruces]

Great news for the profits of all the junk food brands at the chosen airports then !
Not to mention the airports themselves, they're going to charge a fortune.

[pr00ne]

Whether or not we are a major player is not the point. Having so few runways available is the problem so the idea of dispersal and operations from civilian airfields makes sense. Why not also take a leaf from the Swedish (and others) book and look at road bases.

I guess the reason we have 2 aircraft carriers is the hope that at least one will work.

Who are you to decide what is and isn't the point? We have loads of runways available in this country. Apart from the existing RAF frontline airfields, there are all of the 22 Group airfields and relief landing grounds, the RN and AAC airfields, and then, before you even get anywhere near civilian airfields, are the existing MoD airfields not in current active aviation use such as Dishforth, Topcliffe, Cottesmore, Chivenor, Honington, Kinloss, Colerne, Hullavington, Little Rissington, Brawdy, Linton On Ouse, Scampton, Lyneham, etc etc etc. All of these could be dispersal runways used in a genuine emergency before you even start to consider the numerous civilian airfields up and down the land. This would complicate massively any possible (and extremely unlikely) Russian cruise missile/ballistic missile barrage against existing RAF and USAF airfields in this country.

In the days of the recent Cold War, we had on average 2 squadrons/OCU's per station, (Wattisham, Binbrook, Coningsby, Leuchars, Wittering) whereas the current RAF has large numbers of squadrons on a station, take Lossiemouth and Coningsby as typical examples. This was a cost saving measure when there was no perceived threat to the Homebase whatsoever. That has all changed since 2014 and 24th February 2022, but we simply do not need oodles and oodles of newly opened RAF airfields.

[vascodegama]

proone

I am entitled to my view as much as you I would say.

Have you checked the status of the numerous airfields that you mentioned? The chances of them all being available as airfields is debateable , not only that but is the runway length sufficient for large ac anyway. Add to that fuel supplies etc and the problems get worse.

Why did the system even look at the dispersal to civilian airfields in the first place?

[pr00ne]

proone

I am entitled to my view as much as you I would say.

Have you checked the status of the numerous airfields that you mentioned? The chances of them all being available as airfields is debateable , not only that but is the runway length sufficient for large ac anyway. Add to that fuel supplies etc and the problems get worse.

Why did the system even look at the dispersal to civilian airfields in the first place?

You certainly are entitled to your view, what you are not entitled to is to decide what is, and what isn't, the point of other posters! The status of the MoD owned sites obviously varies, but we are talking about emergency use. I imagine the system looked at dispersal to civilian airfields for the same reasons that the RAF did the same thing in 1940, they are not on any existing target list, and there are far more of them!

[chevvron]

Who are you to decide what is and isn't the point? We have loads of runways available in this country. Apart from the existing RAF frontline airfields, there are all of the 22 Group airfields and relief landing grounds, the RN and AAC airfields, and then, before you even get anywhere near civilian airfields, are the existing MoD airfields not in current active aviation use such as Dishforth, Topcliffe, Cottesmore, Chivenor, Honington, Kinloss, Colerne, Hullavington, Little Rissington, Brawdy, Linton On Ouse, Scampton, Lyneham, etc etc etc. All of these could be dispersal runways used in a genuine emergency before you even start to consider the numerous civilian airfields up and down the land. This would complicate massively any possible (and extremely unlikely) Russian cruise missile/ballistic missile barrage against existing RAF and USAF airfields in this country.

Delete Hullavington add Wyton and Ternhill.
Turnhouse used to have barriers when Leuchars was active but I don't think the equipment is still there.
Upper Heyford and Thurleigh could be cleared.
There are aslo several grass airfields like Halton and Henlow but probably too short for most deployments.

[vascodegama]

I am guessing (and hoping) that the staff Officers have examined the options of MOD stock and consider dispersal to civilian airfields as a better option- particularly for large ac.

[biscuit74]

'pr00ne' : That is an impressive looking list, however 'nine Typhoon squadrons'?
Actually there are five 'front line' , plus OCU, test & eval, aggressor trg provision and a joint sqn helping another nation work up on type.

The Hawk T2 is a very capable machine, but its role in the RAF is clearly stated as a training one only.

I understand the overall point you were making, but over-egging the pudding really doesn't help it!

[Finningley Boy]

Every Defence review since the end of the Cold War has sought to contract the existing defence posture. The SDSR of 2010 was driven by the austerity measures I don't think that actual defence and security considerations have ever prevailed in any review since, it didn't in many conducted through the cold war. Each one arrives at the same conclusion, less means more, rather than the obvious less means less.

FB

[pr00ne]

'pr00ne' : That is an impressive looking list, however 'nine Typhoon squadrons'?
Actually there are five 'front line' , plus OCU, test & eval, aggressor trg provision and a joint sqn helping another nation work up on type.

The Hawk T2 is a very capable machine, but its role in the RAF is clearly stated as a training one only.

I understand the overall point you were making, but over-egging the pudding really doesn't help it!

It’s not over egging! There ARE 7 front line Typhoon Squadrons (1,2,3,6 9,11 and 12), 1 OCU squadron (29) and 1 OEU Squadron (41).
You try telling the OC and crews of those squadrons you mention that they are not front line operational!

I agree totally that the Hawk T2 Squadrons are certainly training, but I never claimed any different. In point of fact I should really add 1 Hawk T1 Squadron, with an Aerobatic Display, Trials Support and Aviation Medicine role.

[downsizer]

Hmmmm...

I'm not sure we can class 12 Sqn as front line - are we really going to deploy what is basically a Qatari training Sqn anywhere other than Qatar for this world cup?

And 9 Sqn are "red air" and slated to disband aren't they - they don't fit in the Ops plot so arguably aren't first line either!

[Background Noise]

Isn't this old news?

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/641738-raf-fast-jets-practice-dispersal-off-mobs.html?highlight=civvy

[MPN11]

News or not, the challenge will be providing (pre-positioned!) all those techy bits and pieces that make the whole thing work. Do we have enough Typhoon cockpit ladders to distribute around UK, for example?

I would hope the trials/exercises will focus on such little essentials, otherwise “for want of a nail etc etc”.

[chopper2004]

Quite a lot of small countries have military and civilian airports mixed. The UK ceased to be a major player decades ago. Just waking up to reality.

How about RAF Gibralter?

Aeronavale
Brest or Britanny //GA airfield with pair of AS565F Panther

Bundesheer
Linz-Horsching (C-130K and AB-212)


RNEthAF
Eindhoven A330 MRTT/ C-130H / Gulfstream IV

RNoAF /USAFE

Stavanger ...AW101 SArQueen NAWSARH and 426th ABS, 423rd ABG, 501sr Combat Support Wing USAFE.

USN
NAples/Capodicinio : C-26D and detachment MH-60S

and theres many more

also states wise with Air Force Reserve, Air National Guard, Army National Guard/Reserve, Navy and marine corps reserves

cheers

[NickB]

Not quite the same, but a few years ago, RNAS Culdrose was looked at as a base in the SW for deploying Typhoons to in times of need.
However nothing ever happened - I heard rumours as to why, but never heard a definitive reason as to why it didn't happen.

St Mawgan (Newquay to kids), has a fantastic HAS site that is now only separated from the active airfield by a fence - surely this could be dusted off and made operational again?

[SASless]

MPN,

Improvisation is a concept known to the Infantry....and helicopter units.

No Typhoon Ladders....get some old fashioned Irish Scaffolding, a fork lift, a portalift from you local builders....this ain't rocket science.



https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/590x506/image_378ae011a2b983608b5a14f64ed910c9b11661a0.png

[biscuit74]

'Proone' - 'downsizer;' has it right.

12 Sqn is not frontline4, it is involved in training the Qatari crews Bit of a comedown for Shiny Twelve, but maybe later it will return.
9 Sqn acts as an aggressor unit - yes it could return to an operational role fairly quickly if required, but that is not where it concentrates its work.

I do recall there being pictures of the Arrows with Sidewinders and gun pods on their machines long ago, but let's not push the boundaries of absurd. Again, things COULD be done if necessary, but that would take time, money and equipment pre- prepared.

[Addlepate]

whilst I was taking my obligatory old man's visit to the toilet........closely followed by an Atlas and two Chinooks!

You were followed to the loo by an Atlas and two Chinooks? Must have left the landing light on ...

I'll get my coat.

[pr00ne]

Hmmmm...

I'm not sure we can class 12 Sqn as front line - are we really going to deploy what is basically a Qatari training Sqn anywhere other than Qatar for this world cup?

And 9 Sqn are "red air" and slated to disband aren't they - they don't fit in the Ops plot so arguably aren't first line either!

Well, 12 Squadron's Qatari commitment is described as 'temporary,' and 9 squadron have recently deployed 4 Typhoons to Romania on operational NATO air defence tasking, so I don't think that you can get any more front line than that!

[rattman]

Quite a lot of small countries have military and civilian airports mixed. The UK ceased to be a major player decades ago. Just waking up to reality.

Doesn't even have to be small RAAF has full time military airbases, civilian airbases with dispersal and hangers for visiting military aircraft and bare bone bases that have a very small terminal for civilian use and civilian part keeps the airbase maintained for military use

[downsizer]

Well, 12 Squadron's Qatari commitment is described as 'temporary,' and 9 squadron have recently deployed 4 Typhoons to Romania on operational NATO air defence tasking, so I don't think that you can get any more front line than that!

They were plundered as a source of manpower and airframes - exactly the same as when they sent people to Shader earlier this year. They don't sit in the Ops plot.

Hey ho, I'm not going to die in a ditch over this but you are swallowing the propaganda if you think 12 and 9 are true front line Sqns.

[bobward]

MPN,
The Typhoon does have a built-in ladder, similar to the one the F4 had, or at least the 29Sqn T1 that was on static display at a RIAT years ago did!

I'm sure there must be an airframe professional on the system that can confirm or refute this.

[MPN11]

MPN,
The Typhoon does have a built-in ladder, similar to the one the F4 had, or at least the 29Sqn T1 that was on static display at a RIAT years ago did!

I'm sure there must be an airframe professional on the system that can confirm or refute this.Oh, it was just a generalised GSE availability observation, rather than type-specific.

It's the little bits that can screw the plot, including suitable accommodation!

[The Helpful Stacker]

Great news for the profits of all the junk food brands at the chosen airports then !

You're joking right? Some jobsworth would no doubt say military personnel aren't adaquately security cleared to go near a civil apron or terminal.

The best the RAF will likely see is a couple of hastily dragged in Portacabins at the far end of the airport, a flaky piece of concrete to park the a/c on and horror bags driven in from the closest MOB by a contracted in taxi driver.

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

You're joking right? Some jobsworth would no doubt say military personnel aren't adaquately security cleared to go near a civil apron or terminal.

The best the RAF will likely see is a couple of hastily dragged in Portacabins at the far end of the airport, a flaky piece of concrete to park the a/c on and horror bags driven in from the closest MOB by a contracted in taxi driver.
Horribly, horribly far too near to the truth I regret to say....

[HershamBoys]

I'm afraid it's not a jobsworth, it is the law. There is no way a UK airport operator can compromise the integrity of the Critical Part of its Security Restricted Area by enabling the kind of flexibility that would support a military operation. No liquids or gels (exactly what is a yoghurt...?), permitted tools only, no weapons, explosives or pyrotechnics, personnel screening inbound, long waiting times for security pass issue..... As alluded to above, a potential airport would need to provide a dedicated enclave with its own access that could be completely segregated from the airport operation....a flaky bit of concrete that is not earning money as a car park, probably.

[meleagertoo]

The best the RAF will likely see is a couple of hastily dragged in Portacabins at the far end of the airport, a flaky piece of concrete to park the a/c on and horror bags driven in from the closest MOB by a contracted in taxi driver.

And not a scintilla of real security around it's perimeter present or possible. Unlike the airliners across the apron, fat, dumb and happy under total immunity from hostile yoghurt, mineral water and cold rice pudding.

[SASless]

Jobsworth at a civil airport....oh please do go on!

While towing a Huey Helicopter...Tug with flashing lights, Head Lights, and two of us assisting the driver.....me holding the Tail Stinger of the helicopter to prevent the tail end of the skid landing gear from dragging.....the Airport Plod accosted me for not having a Hi-Vis Vest about my person.

The explanation that there would scant chance of me gietting hit due to that small thing I was holding in my hands first getting in the way did not sit well with Plod who insisted the operation stop immediately....smack in the center of the Ramp until I was suitably attired....posing a much greater risk meant nothing to him.

He got very perplexed when I asked how I was to go fetch said Hi-Vis Vest....walk without one to the hangar to fetch one.....drop the tow bar and ride the Tug leaving the helicopter in the middle of the ramp and stopping airplane traffic until we could return and move it....me stay beside the aircraft and send the Tug and the other guy.....or just use some commonsense and continue what we were doing and swear on my Sainted Mother's Grave never to commit such a similar sin ever again. Watching him ponder those options with wrinkled brow and his finger to his lip....and not knowing what to say was a pleasure I shall have to atone for one day. Finally, a radio call to him from some voice....asking him why the helicopter was not moving stirred him to tell us to continue as is....and off he strode.

They do live among us!

[PICKS135]

You're joking right? Some jobsworth would no doubt say military personnel aren't adaquately security cleared to go near a civil apron or terminal.

The best the RAF will likely see is a couple of hastily dragged in Portacabins at the far end of the airport, a flaky piece of concrete to park the a/c on and horror bags driven in from the closest MOB by a contracted in taxi driver.

If its good enough to drive sandwiches from London to Leeds then on to a famous golf resort near EGQL, just for the staff lunches [ lower rank staff of course] Then its good enough for groundcrew :E

[kintyred]

I diverted to Newcastle in a Chinook while on exercise. We were all tooled up with SA80 and pistols. We went into the terminal to speak to the handling agent, our gats carefully concealed to avoid alarming the public. All went well until we wanted to return to the cab. The security guy insisted that that we put all our bags and anything metallic through the scanner. His face was a picture as we piled our little arsenal onto his conveyor belt!

[SKOJB]

Can only imagine the likes of St Mawgan, Boscombe Down, Leuchars and Leeming would be utilised. All have HAS and fuel depots on site!

[The Helpful Stacker]

Can only imagine the likes of St Mawgan, Boscombe Down, Leuchars and Leeming would be utilised. All have HAS and fuel depots on site!

As far as I know the F34 BFI at Leuchars still isn't back in use and, given my experience of how much thought is given to the potential re-commissioning of BFIs during the rush to abandon RAF stations/give them to the Army, I very much doubt it'll be a quick, cheap or easy process to sort.

This goes equally for all the other 'mothballed' airfields folks seem to think could be used.

Yes it's possible to deploy various tankers and/or EBFI assets to such airfields but, for many reasons, these are far from desirable options.

[Whenurhappy]

You're joking right? Some jobsworth would no doubt say military personnel aren't adaquately security cleared to go near a civil apron or terminal.

The best the RAF will likely see is a couple of hastily dragged in Portacabins at the far end of the airport, a flaky piece of concrete to park the a/c on and horror bags driven in from the closest MOB by a contracted in taxi driver.


You make a very good point. Earlier this year, the Home Office introduced enhanced background checks on ALL airport staff in the UK because of very real concerns about the insider threat. This has, unfortunately, compounded the workforce problems at major airports as some returning staff and new recruits either did not pass background checks or, indeed, refused to undertake them (working different jobs under assumed names, fibbing to HMRC, outstanding warrants in other jurisdictions, etc). It would be interesting to see if CTC and SC checks - typically applied to SP - are adequate to meet HO requirements (without getting into vetting discussions in open forum, vetting standards across government, along with transferability, remains a challenge).

[Asturias56]

What sort of scenario are we looking at here?

A strike that takes out current UK military airfields but leaves civi ones working?

Seems unlikely..............................

[Diff Tail Shim]

What sort of scenario are we looking at here?

A strike that takes out current UK military airfields but leaves civi ones working?

Seems unlikely..............................
Ideas from those that never tried hard at school. That is being diplomatic. Never watched Threads I bet as they were in the NAFFI getting hammered.

[Chugalug2]

What sort of scenario are we looking at here?

A strike that takes out current UK military airfields but leaves civi ones working?

Seems unlikely..............................

Despite being very very close to Gatwick and its single runway, Crawley Borough Council ensured its survival in the Cold War by erecting signs on the town's outskirts proclaiming it to be a nuclear free zone. One has to admit that it worked, though whether that be counted as success or not depends on your point of view of course (and your post code).

[lightonthewater]

Am not military and not a pilot, but, having recently flown from Belfast International Airport, I noticed a military base (presumably RAF?) and number of military aircraft sited on the other side of the airfield plus the landing of a large military transport plane. So it seems that the RAF can manage to coexist with civilian air transport, at least in Northern Ireland. But perhaps someone more qualified than I can shed more light on this?

[Chugalug2]

Am not military and not a pilot, but, having recently flown from Belfast International Airport, I noticed a military base (presumably RAF?) and number of military aircraft sited on the other side of the airfield plus the landing of a large military transport plane. So it seems that the RAF can manage to coexist with civilian air transport, at least in Northern Ireland. But perhaps someone more qualified than I can shed more light on this?

T'other way around lotw, it has been a military base since 1917 with civilian operations joining in 1922, later temporarily diverted to Nutts Corner. See Wiki :-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belfast_International_Airport

[lightonthewater]

T'other way around lotw, it has been a military base since 1917 with civilian operations joining in 1922, later temporarily diverted to Nutts Corner. See Wiki :-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belfast_International_Airport

So if the RAF ops can coexist with easyJet in Belfast, maybe elsewhere? (would make sense, but probably too much to hope).

[NicolaJayne]

Quite, no RAF Stations surviving from world war 2 are using the same runways!

FB
so your assertions is no airport or RAF base has a runway which follows the alignment of WW2 runway ?

or is this some kind of semantic- pargmatic language disorder appendange waving competition ?

obviously the runways will have been resurfaced and likely extended ( see the Bow at Scampton) and theirunway numbers are likely to have changed due to the magnetic polar drift ...

[GeeRam]

Delete Hullavington add Wyton and Ternhill.
Turnhouse used to have barriers when Leuchars was active but I don't think the equipment is still there.
Upper Heyford and Thurleigh could be cleared.


Thurleigh couldn't because of the proximity to the old main runway of the Bedford Autodrome circuit, plus the fact that the car auctions and car sales companies have modified and fenced a lot of the site including across the old runway.
Wyton is the same with fences and other obstructions although probably less hassle to return to an operational base than Thurleigh, as a lot of it is still MOD.
Wattisham being AAC would be the easiest one to get back into a fit state you would have thought if push came to shove, and probably Leuchars??

[HershamBoys]

So if the RAF ops can coexist with easyJet in Belfast, maybe elsewhere? (would make sense, but probably too much to hope).

Flying operations could co-exist, albeit in the case of civil airports the military RTF phraseology and circuit SOPs are very different to their civilian equivalents, and it is likely that civil ATC would have had little exposure to, knowledge of, or training in military procedures. I'm not sure how the commercials would react to having their arrivals and departures impacted by the military doing their run and breaks.
In the case of Belfast, because the civil and military infrastructures are on different sides of the airfield, they can be adequately segregated.

[Mogwi]

In Germany many moons ago, the Harriers operated very effectively from a grass strip owned by the local model aircraft club. I seem to recall that it was around 250m long and was quite adequate - no security problems either!! Unfortunately JL had a donk stop on takeoff, which rather ruined the maize crop in the overshoot. 🙂

Mog

[PlasticCabDriver]

Jobsworth at a civil airport....oh please do go on!

While towing a Huey Helicopter...Tug with flashing lights, Head Lights, and two of us assisting the driver.....me holding the Tail Stinger of the helicopter to prevent the tail end of the skid landing gear from dragging.....the Airport Plod accosted me for not having a Hi-Vis Vest about my person.

The explanation that there would scant chance of me gietting hit due to that small thing I was holding in my hands first getting in the way did not sit well with Plod who insisted the operation stop immediately....smack in the center of the Ramp until I was suitably attired....posing a much greater risk meant nothing to him.

He got very perplexed when I asked how I was to go fetch said Hi-Vis Vest....walk without one to the hangar to fetch one.....drop the tow bar and ride the Tug leaving the helicopter in the middle of the ramp and stopping airplane traffic until we could return and move it....me stay beside the aircraft and send the Tug and the other guy.....or just use some commonsense and continue what we were doing and swear on my Sainted Mother's Grave never to commit such a similar sin ever again. Watching him ponder those options with wrinkled brow and his finger to his lip....and not knowing what to say was a pleasure I shall have to atone for one day. Finally, a radio call to him from some voice....asking him why the helicopter was not moving stirred him to tell us to continue as is....and off he strode.

They do live among us!

Sounds like Sumburgh in the Shetlands. Divert in tech, pax unloaded to terminal. Aircraft is shutdown, but unknowingly INSIDE THE RED LINE OF DEATH, where company base is outside. I walk up to base to use phone, walk back down again, grabbed by the Dragon Lady, what do I think I am doing, I can’t just walk over a red line on the ground like that, I have to go to be searched. Once that’s done, she asks how the engineers are going to get to the aircraft. Er walk? It’s about 30 yds.

No no, they have to be searched, and all their kit and tools too. They bring them out and are “searched” there and then, by the search manny who has been summoned. They walk the 30 yds, one of them realises he’s left a bag on the ground, and steps back over the line to get it. You’d think he’s trying to penetrate the cordon around Air Force One the way she went off. She made him wait while not only this bag, which had already just been searched, was searched again, but he had to be searched again too.

Then one had to go back for another tool. Stuff this, aircraft is pushed over the red line on to the sane side so they can work on it without this nonsense. I need to go talk to my pax, but I have unwittingly strayed over the line. I have to be searched again, but search manny has wandered off, and she can’t do it so we have to wait for him to come back, then she escorts me into the terminal via some labyrinth route that avoids the single door between airside and the passenger lounge*, then threatens me with all sorts of retribution if I were to try to go back airside without going to see her highness first. No dramas says I, I’ll just go outside up the road. After the third degree about how thoroughly the company staff will inspect my ID and search my body cavities on arrival in our own company base, this is permitted (not sure how she was going to stop me).

Aircraft deemed totally tech, new aircraft dispatched to pick up passengers, but how are we going to get their bags from aircraft #1 to aircraft #2. Apparently, the pax must walk up to our company base, retrieve bags from aircraft #1, carry them back down to terminal and go through security again. Like f*ck they are, passengers were boarded there, aircraft taxied 20 yds further up the apron, but most importantly OVER THE RED LINE, where we moved the bags from #1 to #2, smiling at her while she stood there shaking with impotent rage.

All this at a small airport in the Shetlands, which was protected on all sides by an impenetrable barrier comprising a 3 foot wooden fence. Later, she tried to get entry to company base to complain about our seeming insouciance for her security empire. The staff there demanded her ID before they would even let her through the door. She didn’t have it. They threw her off company property. Excellent.

* if you went at the weekend when she wasn’t on, you could go from airside to lounge just by opening the door. To come the other way, you just knocked, and the staff would let you through..

[Ken Scott]

Some years ago I flew to Exeter in a C130 and was parked on the disused runway. Even longer ago I had flown with Exeter Flying Club when I first had my PPL and for old times sake wandered over to their clubhouse to say hello. My old CFI, who was pretty aged when I had flown there, was still the CFI and he asked if he could see my aircraft to which I happily agreed. We wandered back over along with another club instructor and I had just started the tour when an airport security vehicle arrived and said ‘they aren’t allowed here!’ I replied that it was my aircraft and I had invited them so it was all right but security insisted that I wasn’t allowed to invite them.

The old CFI then told security to ‘stop being a silly jobsworth’ and promptly was arrested, along with the other FI for good measure. At which point I decided we were task complete and should really be getting back to EGDL.

As an aside although Exeter Flying Club folded some years ago the CFI was only grounded by the CAA at around the age of 90 having worked for another club at the airport.

[HershamBoys]

I'm sorry, but this is the world that civilian airfields that handle commercial passengers have to live in. The security companies have to be internally audited for compliance by their own management and externally by airport management; security provision is then subject to regulatory oversight, which will pick up on the slightest infringement, reviewing documentary records, bodycam recordings, and CCTV. This results in airports having to provide a corrective action plan for any infringement or lapse, and could cost the security provider a 'fine' under the T&Cs of its contract with the airport. Given that the contract price will have been driven down to minimum by airports striving to make money and security providers desperate to obtain the contract. Common sense or convenient workarounds are not an option.

[RichardJones]

Would deploying Military to civilian locations, make those locations valid military targets?
I guess when the next war starts, it won't make any difference. Putin has no respect for civilians as he has so aptly demonstrated.

[vascodegama]

It would increase the targeting problems for the other side. The Ukrainians didn't sit on a small number of airfields and managed to keep in the fight.

[Imagegear]

A400 doing circuits at Finningley yesterday and considering the fact that Doncaster/Sheffield Airport is on the verge of closure due to lack of flights.

With an increased budget for defense perhaps it's time to reconsider recovering some of these old bases.

IG

[chevvron]

Flying operations could co-exist, albeit in the case of civil airports the military RTF phraseology and circuit SOPs are very different to their civilian equivalents, and it is likely that civil ATC would have had little exposure to, knowledge of, or training in military procedures. I'm not sure how the commercials would react to having their arrivals and departures impacted by the military doing their run and breaks.
In the case of Belfast, because the civil and military infrastructures are on different sides of the airfield, they can be adequately segregated.
In the case of phraseology, this was all 'harmonised' by mutual agreement some years ago (about 2010 I think) and all controllers were briefed on 'differences'.

[chevvron]

A400 doing circuits at Finningley yesterday and considering the fact that Doncaster/Sheffield Airport is on the verge of closure due to lack of flights.

With an increased budget for defense perhaps it's time to reconsider recovering some of these old bases.

IG
Aircraft occasionally use Sculthorpe for exercises too.
(NB: I did post a more detailed explanation about Sculthorpe yesterday but it would appear I was censored - or is the word nowadays 'redacted'?)

[JT Eagle]

As there are a pair of bombed-up Typhoons in at Prestwick at the moment, presumably some of these difficulties can be overcome.

[Asturias56]

Would deploying Military to civilian locations, make those locations valid military targets?
I guess when the next war starts, it won't make any difference. Putin has no respect for civilians as he has so aptly demonstrated.


IIRC from the Cold War UK planning always assumed that Heathrow would be hit early. Of course these days you wouldn't bother - its so screwed up nothing could operate from it anyway

[rattman]

So many pearl clutchers in this thread, guess what combined military and civilian airports exist. I have actually worked at one, I had both a civilian "airside security pass" and a military identification. The reason military just cant walk around free in the sterile part of an airport is that is that military are considered to have the same level of criminality as civiians. Hell there are posters here in this forum smugging about how they imported cigarettes and possibly other illegal **** into the UK, 'back in the day'. Thats why getting my airside security pass for sterile civilian areas was way more difficult that my military security pass

[pr00ne]

IIRC from the Cold War UK planning always assumed that Heathrow would be hit early. Of course these days you wouldn't bother - its so screwed up nothing could operate from it anyway

Hhmmm…,

So what exactly are those hundreds of departures and arrivals doing soaring over my head 7 days a week then?

[throwaway1]

Emulating the civvies is probably why it’s rumoured that crews will have to go through security screening with the pax for Strat lifts at RAF Melton Runway (Brize).

[Asturias56]

"So what exactly are those hundreds of departures and arrivals doing soaring over my head 7 days a week then?"

the sad remnant of a great plan - there should be THOUSANDS, darkening the sky. BA keep mailing me with offers while cancelling flights I actually might want to take...............

[chevvron]

Just thought of another; the runway at Woodbridge is kept in good nick by the Army although some of the other bits are a bit overgrown.

[bobward]

Bentwaters is also looking quite good. As many will remember it was used at least once by the Harrier force for a dispersed base exercise, as was St Mawgan.

They could also use Norwich, although, if wanting fuel, would have to give way to the offshore helicopters, who seem to get priority!

[chevvron]

Looking at it the other way, don't forget that civil flying at Farnborough started in a fenced off enclave at Farnborough in 1989 whilst MOD test flying was still in operation.
We had remote controlled gates (operated from the control tower a mile away) to keep these civvies penned in to their own security cordon on the south side of the airfield, only opening them to allow aircraft to go in and out. This meant that if the airfield was closed, the civil traffic could not operate which rather annoyed a certain Mr R Maxwell who often wanted to just fly off somewhere on a whim at weekends so the aircraft had to moved to another airfield during these periods.
Course when we were able to extend our operating hours, this didn't matter as much and eventually when MOD flying moved out, it was a free for all with the civil operators quickly getting permission to use other parts of the airfield such as West Area.

[tommee_hawk]

You're joking right? Some jobsworth would no doubt say military personnel aren't adaquately security cleared to go near a civil apron or terminal.
I remember landing at Newcastle in a GR1 in 1991; a security officer escorted us to a combination-locked door leading to the apron, but walked off without opening it. He was about five yards away when he realised, turned and shouted "The access number is **** - it's **** in all UK civvy airports".....

I never got the chance to check that out....

[The Helpful Stacker]

I remember landing at Newcastle in a GR1 in 1991; a security officer escorted us to a combination-locked door leading to the apron, but walked off without opening it. He was about five yards away when he realised, turned and shouted "The access number is **** - it's **** in all UK civvy airports".....

I never got the chance to check that out....

Funnily enough there is a certain combination number that was very common within the RAF (with those 5 digit door locks that seem to be used everywhere) that is also very commonly used in the NHS.

It's always worth a punt.

[OJ 72]

Funnily enough there is a certain combination number that was very common within the RAF (with those 5 digit door locks that seem to be used everywhere) that is also very commonly used in the NHS.

It's always worth a punt.

When I first started on 72 Sqn when I was dropping my flying kit off with the Squippers for acceptance and any additional servicing, my Dad (a joiner with absolutely no aviation knowledge) came with me to give me a hand!

I had been at the Sqn a few days before to complete the joining procedures so I knew that the combination for the main entrance was, as ‘The Helpful Stacker’ stated ***. Strangely enough, this was the same combination at nearly every flying station that I had been at!

As I was unloading the second part of the kit, my old man went on ahead, tapped in ***, and opened the door! ‘How the ‘flip’ did you do that?!? His reply, *** is the factory setting! He had fitted enough of them in his day to know that the factory code was rarely changed!

In my, and undoubtedly other aircrew’s naïveté, we all thought that *** had been selected as it was a ‘well remembered and useful’ radio frequency!!! Obviously not!!!

[JulieAndrews]

Factory setting - that is edging funny !

[langleybaston]

As for RAF safe combination locks ........ in Met we used the Met station ID numbers, and as an aide-memoire wrote, for example, "Waddington" or [sophisticated] "Waddington minus one" in plain sight.
When an incumbent was posted, it might become Machrihanish plus 2 ................
Secure, sure.

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

Langley, dear chap, please refrain from reference to the 'M' place...... 45 yrs ago and memory flashbacks remain the stuff of nightmares! 🤯