Qantas loses $860 million last year.

[Icarus2001]

Results are out.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-25/qantas-profit-loss-2022-annual-results-alan-joyce/101369872


https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/qantas-reports-1-9b-loss-plots-400m-buyback-20220825-p5bckz (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-25/qantas-profit-loss-2022-annual-results-alan-joyce/101369872)

Planning a share buy back. Revenue around half of FY 2019.

[brokenagain]

Can guarantee that this will be spun as to why they need to have ongoing wage freezes……..except for the executives.

[Ollie Onion]

Bonuses all round for the executives given they have met their transformation targets.

[RealSatoshi]

Can guarantee that this will be spun as to why they need to have ongoing wage freezes……..except for the executives.
...and then this...

Qantas CEO paid 72 times more than workers: Australian chief executives' 'obscene' wages revealed - NCA NewsWire via news.com.au (25 August 2022)

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Except that the average ASX 100 CEO earns 140 times the average wage. Qantas staff mustn't be doing too bad:
The report shows that Woolworths chief executive Brad Banducci was paid between 213 and 239 times more than one of his average employees
AMCOR CEO Ron Delia earned $11.32 million, 256 times more than the average AMCOR worker worldwide.

[neville_nobody]

They'll be pumping up their bonuses too with a share buy back. I remember an article about how philanthropic senior management were because they took their salary in shares during the pandemic.

[PoppaJo]

Lol.
https://www.betootaadvocate.com/breaking-news/airline-posting-massive-losses-can-somehow-still-afford-giant-salaries-and-bonuses-for-executives/

[help me jebus]

$400 million dollar on-market share buyback. Lucky all those employees took a second round of 2 year pay freezes.

[Paragraph377]

Joyce, David, Gissing, Wirth, Evans, Hudson and other associated bottom dwellers will hit paydirt with this deal, it will top up their troughs nicely. Viva le revolution.

[SHVC]

$400 million dollar on-market share buyback. Lucky all those employees took a second round of 2 year pay freezes.

Not all! still two groups to go. Will be interesting 12months.

[tail wheel]

Great to see Qantas has apologised to its long suffering passengers and extended a very generous offer to all Qantas Frequent Flyers:

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1680x2000/qantas_frequent_flyer_offer_4adaa95370be9557809a5760d4c2b673 5bd5ed95.jpg
Bravo Alan!!! :ok:

[blubak]

Joyce, David, Gissing, Wirth, Evans, Hudson and other associated bottom dwellers will hit paydirt with this deal, it will top up their troughs nicely. Viva le revolution.
No doubt there will be a company paid for get together so they can tell each other what a great job they have all done.

[Seabreeze]

Looks like AJ has been following the excellent management lead of our former PM. Communicating with honesty and clarity; respecting the contributions and needs of the general public, and showing appropriate humility. I am sure other posters can think of additional common attributes.

Seabreeze

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

I would have thought the signature would / should have read 'Alan R'..........

Makes as much $'s as..... well almost.

p.s. Just Lurve 'The Shovel'......

p.p.s. -
Can only hope that the ATO is aware and scrutinizes accordingly....seeing as to how I've 'chipped in'....as a lowly taxpayer.......
A 'Great Unwashed Taxpayer'......

[PoppaJo]

4 Corners’ Stephen Long made an unexpected appearance at the media presser today asking some uncomfortable questions, topic changed quick smart when it was starting to get interesting. Probably a episode on the Roo approaching.

[tail wheel]

They'll be pumping up their bonuses too with a share buy back. I remember an article about how philanthropic senior management were because they took their salary in shares during the pandemic.

Joyce has 2,728,924 Qantas Shares and is the 19th largest Qantas share holder.

[smiling monkey]

Joyce has 2,728,924 Qantas Shares and is the 19th largest Qantas share holder.

Good to see the boss has faith in his product and his employees to deliver the goods despite all the back stabbers.

[C441]

Good to see the boss has faith in his product and his employees to deliver the goods despite all the back stabbers.
I'd have that many too if I could 'influence' the price at which I could acquire and dispose of them! Bring on the buyback.

[Trevor the lover]

.....................and if I never paid a single cent for any of them!

[Australopithecus]

Good to see the boss has faith in his product and his employees to deliver the goods despite all the back stabbers.

Boy I'll say. At least Allan stabs you right in the front. Every chance he gets.

[dr dre]

Share price went up almost 8% on results day. Overall it has climbed 1.4% in the last year, not too impressive, but easily outperforming the ASX 200 which fell 6%.

The Qantas share price just flew 8% higher on $400 million share buyback (https://www.fool.com.au/2022/08/25/the-qantas-share-price-just-flew-8-higher-on-400-million-share-buyback/)

[Lapon]

Good to see the boss has faith in his product and his employees to deliver the goods despite all the back stabbers.

Enough faith to have purchased on market, or were they simply given to him?

[Paragraph377]

Enough faith to have purchased on market, or were they simply given to him?
Most of those shares have been gifted to Joyce. These companies are filled with executive grifters and shysters. Buybacks are another invention of the Wall Street white shoe brigade. Of course the share price rose upon the announcement of the buyback. The same way that markets rally and rise when the US guvmint announces things like quantitative easing or a bond buyback. Sharemarkets and their prices are rigged, the entire system is a rigged game. The global Ponzi scheme can only last so long.

[RealSatoshi]

Share price went up almost 8% on results day. Overall it has climbed 1.4% in the last year, not too impressive, but easily outperforming the ASX 200 which fell 6%.
...and UP an insignificant *cough* 35% since July 2020 when the Executive 'Shares for Deferred Salary' scheme was first mentioned.

[43Inches]

I'm still trying to understand how the statutory loss is $1billion less than the underlying loss of $1.86B, which is $100M worse than last year.... With EBITDA 32% worse than last year. Also key to add the net tangible assets per share is significantly worse than last year. QF is sitting at NAT -.51cps, compared to REX at +1.36. Loss per share QF at -.45- (.79 Underlying) cps vs Rex on -.45 cps.

[MickG0105]

I'm still trying to understand how the statutory loss is $1billion less than the underlying loss of $1.86B,...
The underlying result is before tax and doesn't include one-offs. Statutory is after tax and includes all costs and revenues. There's a $300 million tax benefit, together with one-off benefits of $692 million from asset sales and $22 million in fuel hedges.

[43Inches]

That's what I thought, so they have sold more of the farm to prop up the luxury yatch. Hence why asset to share ratio fell significantly. I don't see anything in that result that reads well for the company for future operations, let alone its turning around in a year. The only thing profitable was the 'loyalty program' for the suckers that keep paying for it. Even J* made half a billion loss and they have been full to the hilt. Not sure where AJ thinks he's getting $1 billion in savings from, very much sounds like VA during the final years, selling everything to lessen losses and make marginal profits. Oh but you need those things to operate, so then lease them back at stupid rates.

[MickG0105]

That's what I thought, so they have sold more of the farm to prop up the luxury yatch. Hence why asset to share ratio fell significantly.
No. The asset-to-share ratio dive was driven off the back of increased liabilities not a decline in assets. Assets actually went up by nearly $2 billion.

[Superman1]

Hahah yes I remember all those ‘Roadshows’ with JB… saying it was ‘“”just a tough environment for aviation of late””…..(despite all other airlines booming and the market being the best in years)……. “but don’t you worry we are the best airline around …..look at all these graphs 📈, next year we are going to be so profitable….!!” And all the happy clappers rejoiced!

Think I heard that 5 years in row … he must have thought everyone couldn’t remember the prior years roadshow…each year the graph just got steeper and steeper and more ambitious… and it was always next year things would be better……he truly was a fraud.

I know most of you won’t like this but at least AJ can make the tough decisions, has proven to be a very successful CEO and can actually turn the airline around.

[Paragraph377]

Hahah yes I remember all those ‘Roadshows’ with JB… saying it was ‘“”just a tough environment for aviation of late””…..(despite all other airlines booming and the market being the best in years)……. “but don’t you worry we are the best airline around …..look at all these graphs 📈, next year we are going to be so profitable….!!” And all the happy clappers rejoiced!

Think I heard that 5 years in row … he must have thought everyone couldn’t remember the prior years roadshow…each year the graph just got steeper and steeper and more ambitious… and it was always next year things would be better……he truly was a fraud.

I know most of you won’t like this but at least AJ can make the tough decisions, has proven to be a very successful CEO and can actually turn the airline around.

And Brett Godfrey in the early days preceded the Borg when they floated the VB lemon. It had no assets as all aircraft were leased, except for a couple of ****boxes including CZQ. Virgin hasn’t owned airport terminals or infrastructure at all as far as I’m aware, at least not in the early days. Alan still has some wriggle room with assets he can sell to prop up the balance sheet. Maybe he will keep doing that until the bucket of assets is empty, he has maximised the share price as high as possible, and then he will pull the pin, leaving behind a skinned carcass?

[AerialPerspective]

Hahah yes I remember all those ‘Roadshows’ with JB… saying it was ‘“”just a tough environment for aviation of late””…..(despite all other airlines booming and the market being the best in years)……. “but don’t you worry we are the best airline around …..look at all these graphs 📈, next year we are going to be so profitable….!!” And all the happy clappers rejoiced!

Think I heard that 5 years in row … he must have thought everyone couldn’t remember the prior years roadshow…each year the graph just got steeper and steeper and more ambitious… and it was always next year things would be better……he truly was a fraud.

I know most of you won’t like this but at least AJ can make the tough decisions, has proven to be a very successful CEO and can actually turn the airline around.

Spot on Superman1 - a total and complete Bullsh*t artiste that apparently spent his time when not ensconced in a premium seat that no one else, not even positioning crew were allowed to occupy, on one occasion demonstrating just how so completely out of touch he was, allegedly having a discussion with Cabin Crew about what colour they thought he should order his new Ferrari in - I mean, talking to crew who had not had their EBA concluded for 3-4 years because, well, an incompetent CEO surrounds himself with incompetent management, about what colour he should choose for his 3/4 of a $M car FFS.

I also heard a lot of reasons why VA wouldn't participate in standard industry norms for exchange of passengers because "John said it costs us money" - anyone with 6 months experience in a real airline and a functioning brain knew that was utter nonsense, along with the other crap that he went around spouting, such as when every, ever-larger, loss was announced "Oh, but we're 'cash flow positive" - heard that one at every roadshow - and at the end of the day, he bails before the collapse with millions of dollars (no one may like Joyce but he is on record as turning down bonuses in some years and working for no pay, not this bloke, never took a cent less than was offered, the annual reports would seem to indicate), then collects an AO and takes up several Board positions, choo-choo, on the management-weasel-word-speaker to Board junkie - mostly on Boards that he couldn't possibly know anything about. As for the former Chair's obtuse statement that "Oh, well, he did build a good airline" - NO, V-Australia had done all that so the same teams worked on the Domestic Premium cabins, he did nothing, just spend billions on leases that were over market - I mean how does someone spend all that time at QF, where while not perfect, know how to negotiate leases and fuel-hedging, etc. and NEVER pay full price for an aeroplane, then go to be the CEO of another company and spend through the nose??

This bloke had sh*t on the liver about losing out to AJ and took that to VA where he put all his effort into trying to replicate it so he could satisfy his ego that he ran a big airline too. To anyone who has had any experience with narcissism, the behaviours certainly raise eyebrows.

I was once told by an ex QF employee who had spent time working with some of the divisional leadership that "You know in Qantas Centre they call him 'Mini Me' "

[AerialPerspective]

And Brett Godfrey in the early days preceded the Borg when they floated the VB lemon. It had no assets as all aircraft were leased, except for a couple of ****boxes including CZQ. Virgin hasn’t owned airport terminals or infrastructure at all as far as I’m aware, at least not in the early days. Alan still has some wriggle room with assets he can sell to prop up the balance sheet. Maybe he will keep doing that until the bucket of assets is empty, he has maximised the share price as high as possible, and then he will pull the pin, leaving behind a skinned carcass?

Except that Godfrey ran a profitable airline for his entire time there. He's as good as said that what happened afterward, the billions spent was not what should have been done (he put it in a very diplomatic manner).

Also, it depends what type of leases. If the original 737s were on finance leases then some of them would be owned - in fact, one of the fears when Bain took over was that they would sell the airframes that were owned and lease them back to VA to recoup their investment (i.e. as with Toys-R-Us, make the takeover target pay for it's own takeover). So, VA must have owned several dozen of their airframes and it is entirely unreasonable to expect a start up CEO to have dozens of assets, especially aeroplanes, against an airline that by that time had been in business for nearly 80 years. I'm sure Q.A.N.T.A.S. Ltd. didn't have any assets on the 16th of November, 1920 when it was registered in Queensland, only 1000 Pounds paid-up-capital.

Qantas has plenty of assets and over $3bn in the bank. It went down to something like $1.5-2.0bn during the pandemic and is now back up at over $3bn. That's hardly emptying the coffers. Yes, they sold land, which they'd owned since the 40s or 50s and never done anything with and that was an exceptionally good move because when SWZ opens and traffic moves there, that land around the airport won't be worth sh-t.

Not saying Joyce is perfect, not by a long shot, but I find it very difficult to fault Godfrey having known how highly he was regarded by the staff, in absolute stark contrast to his successor, who was by all accounts, an egotistical popinjay and a wastrel.

The only mistake that Godfrey made, but I can see what would have led him to do so, was refusing the offer to buy the Ansett terminals in SYD and MEL for an extremely low price. Then again, Qantas never 'really' owned their terminals either, they were the beneficiary of 100 year or 50 year peppercorn leases offered to TN and AN decades ago to give them tenure. ALL of the airports are pushing to resume control when the leases end and QF quite cleverly enticed them to buy them out of the leases for hundreds of millions of dollars. That's not selling 'assets', that's no different to selling a 747 that you're going to retire anyway and leasing a new aircraft. Had QF kept the leases, they would have continued to have to pay out to maintain the buildings and then lose them in the end anyway. Now, if there's ever any major problem such as flooding or storm damage, it's SACL or APAM's problem.

[43Inches]

Except that Godfrey ran a profitable airline for his entire time there. He's as good as said that what happened afterward, the billions spent was not what should have been done (he put it in a very diplomatic manner).

Not sure which multiverse your BG comes from but in this one he started the rot with the war vs Rex in the E-Jets, which marked the entry into highly unprofitable routes for the type. It was well known that VB was floundering which is why JB got the lease to spend billions to try to align it with foreign carriers so that they would show some interest and offer capital injections, which eventuated and extended the life of VA probably another 8 years at least. Had JB not secured that alignment VA/VB would have folded probably as far back as 2012, we have to remember how much capital SQ, AirNZ and EQ pumped into VA to prop it up. Two things signaled the end for the VA life extension to me, one was AirNZ pulling the pin and second was the sale of the head office for cash to support operations.

Qantas has plenty of assets and over $3bn in the bank. It went down to something like $1.5-2.0bn during the pandemic and is now back up at over $3bn. That's hardly emptying the coffers. Yes, they sold land, which they'd owned since the 40s or 50s and never done anything with and that was an exceptionally good move because when SWZ opens and traffic moves there, that land around the airport won't be worth sh-t.


QF had assets, they have pretty much sold all the king assets off in the last 20 years and are leasing back key infrastructure. The sale of the land at SY was a big mistake in the longrun for short term gain, pft mascot land losing value??? again what multiverse are you living in. And the cash in the bank enigma, it not 'spare' cash its required cash to prove to debtors that they have the capability to maintain liquidity and service debts in short term disasters. They don't hold that cash for S&G they hold it because its contractually required, to keep the wolves at bey. Companies only carry such large cash reserves if it is a requirement of operation. It should give you an idea of the debt position they are in. I think a key difference between Rex and QF is that QF has been selling assets to prop up revenue, Rex has been investing revenue into assets that assist operations. Which is why the value of the company per share is so high and QF is so low. If you bought all rex shares and sold the company for parts you would get roughly your money back, of you did the same with QF you would be paying more out again to satisfy debtors and contracts after the sale of assets.

[Paragraph377]

43;
“Not sure which multiverse your BG comes from but in this one he started the rot with the war vs Rex in the E-Jets, which marked the entry into highly unprofitable routes for the type. It was well known that VB was floundering which is why JB got the lease to spend billions to try to align it with foreign carriers so that they would show some interest and offer capital injections, which eventuated and extended the life of VA probably another 8 years at least. Had JB not secured that alignment VA/VB would have folded probably as far back as 2012, we have to remember how much capital SQ, AirNZ and EQ pumped into VA to prop it up. Two things signaled the end for the VA life extension to me, one was AirNZ pulling the pin and second was the sale of the head office for cash to support operations.”
So true. Godfrey is good at running relatively small size businesses. Once VB started to grow significantly he was out of his league, hence the reason he got pushed. That’s why he has spent his later years tinkering with eco tourism and small enterprises. As for the Borg and Scurrah they made huge mistakes with multiple aircraft types and then pushing the stupid frigging hybrid customer service model of not being a full top tier airline and not being an LCC, more of an ‘in between’ airline and it simply doesn’t work.

[Icarus2001]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x490/virgin_australia_profits_1024x490_61fc2ba7e806c2c421b2b05bb6 15ad1738866547.png

I do apologise for inserting more Virgin talk in to a Qantas thread but it does make a change from the other way around. Useful graph.

[AerialPerspective]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x490/virgin_australia_profits_1024x490_61fc2ba7e806c2c421b2b05bb6 15ad1738866547.png

I do apologise for inserting more Virgin talk in to a Qantas thread but it does make a change from the other way around. Useful graph.

And someone asked what universe I am living in, looks pretty damn straightforward to me. One left and the profit went with him. Not much ambiguity there and the big airlines only poured money in because JB was going through it like a drunken sailor.

[AerialPerspective]

Not sure which multiverse your BG comes from but in this one he started the rot with the war vs Rex in the E-Jets, which marked the entry into highly unprofitable routes for the type. It was well known that VB was floundering which is why JB got the lease to spend billions to try to align it with foreign carriers so that they would show some interest and offer capital injections, which eventuated and extended the life of VA probably another 8 years at least. Had JB not secured that alignment VA/VB would have folded probably as far back as 2012, we have to remember how much capital SQ, AirNZ and EQ pumped into VA to prop it up. Two things signaled the end for the VA life extension to me, one was AirNZ pulling the pin and second was the sale of the head office for cash to support operations.



QF had assets, they have pretty much sold all the king assets off in the last 20 years and are leasing back key infrastructure. The sale of the land at SY was a big mistake in the longrun for short term gain, pft mascot land losing value??? again what multiverse are you living in. And the cash in the bank enigma, it not 'spare' cash its required cash to prove to debtors that they have the capability to maintain liquidity and service debts in short term disasters. They don't hold that cash for S&G they hold it because its contractually required, to keep the wolves at bey. Companies only carry such large cash reserves if it is a requirement of operation. It should give you an idea of the debt position they are in. I think a key difference between Rex and QF is that QF has been selling assets to prop up revenue, Rex has been investing revenue into assets that assist operations. Which is why the value of the company per share is so high and QF is so low. If you bought all rex shares and sold the company for parts you would get roughly your money back, of you did the same with QF you would be paying more out again to satisfy debtors and contracts after the sale of assets.

And yet they have an investment grade credit rating. Must be smoke and mirrors as well.

[43Inches]

And someone asked what universe I am living in, looks pretty damn straightforward to me. One left and the profit went with him. Not much ambiguity there and the big airlines only poured money in because JB was going through it like a drunken sailor.

Profits are a lagging indicator with regards to who generated them, policies in place years before dictate the long term profitability of a corporation. Only outside factors like the GFC and Pandemic can change that in general unless a board is completely incompetent to spend so much in one year it sinks the ship. So the first three years of JB losses are leftover headaches from the previous years. Or are you someone who believes politicians who claim economic changes are their doing 3 months after entering office. BG generated profits at a time you could put a cat in the chair and the company would earn fist fulls of cash, very little competition, Jetstar in its infancy, a massive gap left by Ansett. The GFC sorted out who was successfully running businesses and who was lost at the helm when it got tough. There are very few ways to generate instant profit in business, not many are good for the long term health of the company, things like selling high value assets come to mind or sacking a wad of critical staff.

And yet they have an investment grade credit rating. Must be smoke and mirrors as well.

I have a few bridges you might be interested in, you sound the type that knows a good deal when you see it... Or maybe a train tunnel in Melbourne?

[AerialPerspective]

Profits are a lagging indicator with regards to who generated them, policies in place years before dictate the long term profitability of a corporation. Only outside factors like the GFC and Pandemic can change that in general unless a board is completely incompetent to spend so much in one year it sinks the ship. So the first three years of JB losses are leftover headaches from the previous years. Or are you someone who believes politicians who claim economic changes are their doing 3 months after entering office. BG generated profits at a time you could put a cat in the chair and the company would earn fist fulls of cash, very little competition, Jetstar in its infancy, a massive gap left by Ansett. The GFC sorted out who was successfully running businesses and who was lost at the helm when it got tough. There are very few ways to generate instant profit in business, not many are good for the long term health of the company, things like selling high value assets come to mind or sacking a wad of critical staff.

That's simply not true except in circumstances of overwhelming neglect. Here's a history lesson for you. When that clown with the bow tie took over at QF, coincident to BA paying nearly 80c more per share than the float, they demanded that they would not buy into a capital starved company. Qantas had about $1b in the bank then, $967M to be exact, from retained profits during its 45 or so years of government ownership. During those 45 or so years, it ALWAYS paid a dividend to the Commonwealth, ALWAYS. You'll find a struggle to find many, if any years, it did not make a profit. The Commonwealth failed Qantas in many ways because it never hardly put any capital in. At the time of the sale announcement, the total injected capital by the Commonwealth in 45 years of ownership was $147M. Yes, $147M - AND, $80M of that was in 1984 after John Menadue successfully used every lever he had from his time in government to embarrass the government into putting its hands in its pockets to enable the basis for loans to buy 6 747-300s and 7 767-200ERs. So, Keating, true to his promise to BA, injected $1.1b I believe it was, into Qantas as a capital injection. Mr bow tie then announced the following year that he had 'turned the company around' after it posted a profit 2-3 times previous. Well, OF COURSE, when you don't have to service as much debt, profit is going to increase.

It might also surprise you to know that Qantas often sold assets during the 70s and 80s. Buildings, hotels and other assets. There were a few hairy years of international downturn in the 70s where asset sales kept the company in a, albeit, small profit territory.

So, I reject that it is a lag from previous years, except in the case of someone like Pan Am where management was hopeless for the better part of two decades.

There is one clear reason why profits dropped at VA. Because someone started spending BILLIONS of dollars. Did VA really need 'The Club'?? An outlandishly expensive piece of real-estate that sucked dollars like a damn bursting and generated virtually no revenue. Not to mention the absolutely ridiculous 'nazi-style' treatment of its own staff who knocked on the door to ask a question and were often told "DO NOT COME IN, STAY THERE". This was all a manifestation of the ego of the person running the joint. The 'Club' was far bigger than any Chairman's Lounge and it, along with an A330 trans-continental operation that I suspect never may a single dollar in profit, was all waste, waste and more waste.

The contribution of the offshore airlines was FAR outstripped by what was spent.

I have a few bridges you might be interested in, you sound the type that knows a good deal when you see it... Or maybe a train tunnel in Melbourne?

You should instead build a bridge and get over it, he was a BAD CEO and no leader. Full stop.

As for sacking critical staff. Which planet are you living on?? The same one where European airlines are cancelling flights wholesale, they haven't contracted out their ramp and baggage because it's been contracted out for decades. So, Qantas got rid of a work group that had caused continual industrial mayhem for decades. Even the 'good old days' they were on strike every five minutes and had working conditions that were over-the-top by any reasonable standard. The same union at Ansett had overtime 'guarantees' for goodness sake. Now how would things like that be achieved without militant flexing of industrial muscle and constantly putting a gun to the company's head, usually just before Easter or similar.

BTW, VA when they were bought by Bain, sacked something like 9000 staff, a far greater proportion of people than QF has - VA's workforce more than halved. They seem to be doing OK now without 'The Club', the fancy and unprofitable 'The Business' and all the rest of the nonsense that sucked up billions. I flew on VA in 'The Business', yes, it was a great product, but so was Ansett's international first and business class, along with being completely unprofitable.

In case you've missed it, the entire industry is struggling, not just Qantas. In some cases, the delay problems are worse overseas. To blame the entire thing on sacking staff is just a perfect case of assuming post hoc ergo propter hoc.

I believe you mentioned Rex. Haha, did you forget the $100-200M they were 'gifted' to save their regional routes by the previous government, which they then used to launch a 737 operation?? All this nonsense about Qantas being a Job-Keeper 'recipient'. They didn't pocket that money, it was paid on to the staff. It's not like the staff went with no pay and the JobKeeper was just put in a Swiss Bank Account........... I know of people that were terminated after JobKeeper started who the companies could have happily kept employing but they decided to downsize on the basis that there was not going to be a prospect of that work for some time.

Do you really think airlines and other companies should just keep paying people and go bankrupt?? The other 'support' was in reduced or waived fees but you had to be operating to be eligible to save by not paying them and everyone got them.

I will however concede that the offshore call centres are a cock up, training obviously wasn't up to scratch.

[43Inches]

No one said JB was a good CEO, but you were claiming that BG was. Which was completely against what most working at VA towards the end of his tenure thought.

And seriously wrt to QF we are talking about now, not 50 years ago. QF is operating under completely different conditions today. Selling a hotel is not selling key infrastructure and leasing back, like HQs or the terminals you operate from. Its quite easy to see from this years financials why the equity partners are all joining the fray and pumping cash into competitors. They see a market dominated by a failing encumbent ripe for the picking.

I believe you mentioned Rex. Haha, did you forget the $100-200M they were 'gifted' to save their regional routes by the previous government, which they then used to launch a 737 operation??

I also think your universe forgot that QF passed $2billion in government subsidies earlier in the year.

As for sacking critical staff. Which planet are you living on?? The same one where European airlines are cancelling flights wholesale, they haven't contracted out their ramp and baggage because it's been contracted out for decades.

Works in Europe as some countries have 20-30% unemployment so cheap labor is not an issue. In Australia its far cheaper to negotiate your own conditions with employees than put your company in the hands of third parties that have a profit margin on top of employee wage costs. as those contractors are just as likely to strike or move companies and leave the contractor short of labor. Again Australia is a very different labor market and aviation market to the rest of the world.

BTW, VA when they were bought by Bain, sacked something like 9000 staff, a far greater proportion of people than QF has

Not sure you understand that VA was in administration. It was resurrected from the dead by cutting back to the bone and then restructuring and renegotiating, it was that or be broken up and the entire workforce put off. QF can afford to maintain its workforce, its previous profits showed it could, but AJ in his infinite quest for more fake profits and bonuses is bleeding the rock to its core. Lay off a huge chunk of workers, remove a huge chunk of liability on paper, forget the issues it causes and possible increase in operational costs...

[Ladloy]

I believe you mentioned Rex. Haha, did you forget the $100-200M they were 'gifted' to save their regional routes by the previous government, which they then used to launch a 737 operation?? All this nonsense about Qantas being a Job-Keeper 'recipient'. They didn't pocket that money, it was paid on to the staff. It's not like the staff went with no pay and the JobKeeper was just put in a Swiss Bank Account........... I know of people that were terminated after JobKeeper started who the companies could have happily kept employing but they decided to downsize on the basis that there was not going to be a prospect of that work for some time.

Do you really think airlines and other companies should just keep paying people and go bankrupt?? The other 'support' was in reduced or waived fees but you had to be operating to be eligible to save by not paying them and everyone got them.
In Rex's instance they had two states with government subsidised routes which were virtually untouched by covid, so yes the company pocketed the difference in their wages. In the other states Rex worked the pilots to the sum of jobkeeper. For example a captain would work 3 shifts in a fortnight when JK was 1200, their wages were cost free to the company. Demand was outstripping supply with full flights. As JK was reduced so was the frequency of flights to ensure wages were free. Ticket prices were upwards of $500 but the flights ran near full. The company also made pilots 'request/beg' to have a second job to allow them to live above the poverty line. During this time the board gave themselves 20% payrises and the company posted a net positive cash flow for the 20/21 FY.

[43Inches]

From what I understand of subsidised routes they only 'top up' costs to ensure there is no losses on the route. The same applied for the DANS/RANS program you were given cash on the basis of falling below the quoted level on the route, ie airline puts in a cost for the route to be operated, funds were allocated to fund that route based on cost submitted and then paid on any shortfall for any particular flight. WA routes are non subsidised they are just controlled to only allow a single operator. How Rex handled JK funds I have no idea, that's secret squirrel business, same as what QF did with the funds, QF also operating a lot of DANS, and government charters at inflated rates during the pandemic, not to mention profitable freight operations.

It also has to be said that AJ rejected the notion of subsidies directly to kill off VA, there is no other reason he would have done so. Once VA fell over QF put out the hat and dug into the trough as everyone else did. At the same time Rex took the $60m handout on offer, and why not, gov offers, take it, its good corporate governance. Not use a pandemic to sink the opposition and then secretly take three times the amount afterwards. A lot is made of the subsidies, they were asked for/offered and the government accepted, at least the rex numbers were out there in public for all to see. Its quite obvious QF has hidden those numbers because of the issues at the start where they claimed VA and QF would not need subsidies.

Who is the worse operator here, the one that has done everything in public? Or the one that got caught out by the press passing $2billion in assistance calling out the others for dipping?

One thing that will be interesting is that Labour said they would have bailed out airlines in need such as VA. So they might just be challenged by that within their term.

[Deano969]

On the plus side, with QF/JQ losing so much money in the past couple of years I cant see $1 in tax for the next decade or so.......

[Icarus2001]

One thing that will be interesting is that Labour said they would have bailed out airlines in need such as VA. So they might just be challenged by that within their term.

So to be absolutely clear, you believe Qantas will require government assistance to prevent its failure during this term of government?

[43Inches]

Only a remote possibility based on what the economy does etc... pretty much all players have the ability to go south in the next few years if things don't go as planned. QF seems to me to be in a very precarious position with not a lot needing to go wrong to push it into the abyss. First and foremost it has no equity partner, so unless the gov caves in to ownership rules it has to generate all its own cash and savings. If it did go free of restraint to the market you might see a lot of interest and that would change things significantly, at present no one really wants 10% of a flooded pie with no real control. I cant see J* receiving much interest in sell off either at present, its high loss and reliance on QF infrastructure would make many large investors wary.

[43Inches]

A few telling things in the regional operations, the Dash-8s in particular have hit a huge reliability wall, what is causing it is not clear, whether its lack of spend on spares, or the aircraft themselves are past the magic airframe time or just a fleet spread too thin, who knows. But it is severely affecting them in the regional market. A lot of cash and possibly fleet replacement is on the cards. Again comparing to Rex which has a whole setup aimed at keeping the SAAB flying and keeps them pretty reliable for the age, the QF Dashes are looking and feeling old and breeaking down far too regularly. At least the domestic product is OK, although the Melbourne terminal being a perpetual construction site compared to T4 at the moment is not helping. Still huge cancellations and delays at times, but at least VA is not doing a lot better on that front, and Rex is too small to make a dent yet,

[Deano969]

So to be absolutely clear, you believe Qantas will require government assistance to prevent its failure during this term of government?
10-20% fare increase
Reduction in domestic capacity to attain 95% loads

Either leaves it vulnerable to competition from VA, REX, Bonza etc
Or
It will generate a ton of profit to bring it back from the brink

Perhaps they should have a look at REX for some answers as well
Aside from throwing metal at routes that lose money to try to hurt REX, which they should pull out of today...
Aside from trying to compete with REX jet and discounting seats around REX jet flights
Both of the above will be costing a bomb

REX recently withdrew from some unviable routes and redeployed SAABs to QLink routes to fight back, ending up a good win for REX
Pelican stepped in to many of these vacated routes
QLink could easily walk away from or cut back on over serviced loss making regional routes and let them trickle down to other operators, redeploying Q400 to more suitable routes, or selling off the frames and training up the crews for mainline, addressing the crew shortages

Make no mistake, there will be no bail out
QF/JQ are aiming for 70% market share, nowhere in the world in a similar domestic market does this exist
If I were PM I would let QF/JQ fall over and you would see a bunch of new airlines step in and take over
It would be a bloodbath for a few years until stuff sorted itself out, but you would be left with 6-8 survivors all with 10-30% market share, great competition with keen pricing
VA, REX Bonza and perhaps a re-focused Alliance would be the 4 top dogs with 3 or so more surviving newbies
VA would quickly step in and take over international routes and likely become more focused on international routes

A world without QF/JQ IMO would be a much better place
More work choices
More choices for passengers
Much better than we have now a QF/JQ wanting 70% (really 100%) of the market to satisfy shareholders with VA along for the ride for perceived competition / opposition when the pair of them would much prefer that the 2 airline agreement was brought back so they could fix prices and go back to the work practises of the 70s

[Mr_App]

So what you are saying is you want all airlines here foreign owned and funded?

[dr dre]

Sorry to burst your bubble Deano, QF is looking quite rosy at the moment. Lowest debt level since GFC, cash flow almost as good as 2019, there’s a reason why shares have jumped 12% since FY results announcement on Thursday.

No accounting for Qantas crying poor, not with its solid cash flow and $3.3bn in the bank (https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/finance-news/2022/08/26/no-accounting-for-qantas/)

Is the Qantas share price a buy following the airline’s latest results? (https://www.fool.com.au/2022/08/26/is-the-qantas-share-price-a-buy-following-the-airlines-latest-results/)

[Deano969]

So what you are saying is you want all airlines here foreign owned and funded?
Does it really matter where the profits go?
So long as they pay tax here, who gives a toss....
A taxable profit is far better than QF/JQ are paying, or have been paying over the past decade
Isn't QF like 49% foreign owned anyway
Isn't VA fully foreign owned
What's the difference, the tax payer is unlikely to bail out a foreign owned airline plus, with 6 or so players, there would be no need to if one fell over

[SHVC]

You really hate QF Deano. Did you bomb out on an interview or something?! Then left with only Rex to work for!
Wanting such a large group to keel over so more $hit carriers could enter are pretty savage comments to make!

[Deano969]

Sorry to burst your bubble Deano, QF is looking quite rosy at the moment. Lowest debt level since GFC, cash flow almost as good as 2019, there’s a reason why shares have jumped 12% since FY results announcement on Thursday.

No accounting for Qantas crying poor, not with its solid cash flow and $3.3bn in the bank (https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/finance-news/2022/08/26/no-accounting-for-qantas/)

Is the Qantas share price a buy following the airline’s latest results? (https://www.fool.com.au/2022/08/26/is-the-qantas-share-price-a-buy-following-the-airlines-latest-results/)

Isn't money in the bank all the poor punters not able to get their money back when flights were cancelled during covid and a ton of $50 vouchers, QF/JQ must regard this as payment in advance for future flights, this money in the band will soon disappear

As for the share price
Pre pandemic it was between $5.50 and $7.30 where as now it is still at a tad over $5.15
So for a speculator a 6 month gain may look attractive on the HOPE that everything goes right
I'd be more willing to have a punt on REX though at around $1.40 pre covid and pretty much the same today, REX is kicking goals and winning plenty of battles against QF/JQ

QF/JQ needs to get
Their OTP up to scratch
Luggage to it's destinations
QLink and their Q400s sorted
Pilots and cabin crew into their birds
Their fares to a realistic level as their exorbitant fares are pizzing travellers off
Their fuel hedging right
Their call centres (customer service) right
Stop with the attitude, you paid for a ticket, oh you cant fly or we cancelled the flight, here is cents in the dollar voucher that you can use on like 5% of available seats

QF/JQ have a ton of work to do.....

Again there may be a quick dollar to be made on buy-sell shares, but you'd do better buying crypto

[Deano969]

You really hate QF Deano. Did you bomb out on an interview or something?! Then left with only Rex to work for!
Wanting such a large group to keel over so more $hit carriers could enter are pretty savage comments to make!

Last I saw REX don't outsource 30% of their flying
Last I saw REX don't crew their international flying with foreign workers
It is QF/JQ treating their staff like a cost that is easily outsourced

And not just kneel over, I would like this bullying dinosaur monopoly to go the same way as AN

[Deano969]

Sorry to burst your bubble Deano, QF is looking quite rosy at the moment. Lowest debt level since GFC, cash flow almost as good as 2019, there’s a reason why shares have jumped 12% since FY results announcement on Thursday.

No accounting for Qantas crying poor, not with its solid cash flow and $3.3bn in the bank (https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/finance-news/2022/08/26/no-accounting-for-qantas/)

Is the Qantas share price a buy following the airline’s latest results? (https://www.fool.com.au/2022/08/26/is-the-qantas-share-price-a-buy-following-the-airlines-latest-results/)

A quote from your article aboveWhile Qantas isn’t a business I’d make one of my biggest portfolio (https://www.fool.com.au/ideal-number-stocks/) positions, I’d be happy to buy some shares at the current Qantas share price thanks to the strong and improving outlook.
Should you invest $1,000 in Qantas Airways Limited right now? (https://au.foolpitches.com/r?e=eyJ2IjoiMS4xMCIsImF2IjoxOTk5MTU4LCJhdCI6MTYsImJ0IjowLCJj bSI6NzYxMTI2NzUsImNoIjo1ODA3OSwiY2siOnt9LCJjciI6OTQ1NTY4NDAs ImRpIjoiZjUzNjMxMjI1ZWU4NGVjNmIxOTQzZjA3ZTEwZjljODkiLCJkaiI6 MCwiaWkiOiJlNWFiY2U0NWM3MjI0NjhkYmEwYjVmMjY0ZTBiODFlMSIsImRt IjozLCJmYyI6MjQwOTk4NDUwLCJmbCI6MjI3ODY5MjIyLCJpcCI6IjIwMy4y MTkuOTAuMTUwIiwia3ciOiJjYXRlZ29yeTpvcGluaW9ucyxjYXRlZ29yeTp0 cmF2ZWwtc2hhcmVzLHRpY2tlcnNfZ2xvYmFsOmFzeC1xYW4scGFydG5lci1m ZWVkczptc24tOSxwYXJ0bmVyLWZlZWRzOnNoYXJlc2lnaHQiLCJudyI6MTA5 MjAsInBjIjowLCJvcCI6MCwiZWMiOjAsImdtIjowLCJlcCI6bnVsbCwicHIi OjIzMDkyNywicnQiOjEsInJzIjo1MDAsInNhIjoiOCIsInNiIjoiaS0wYTc5 NzA5ZTQwZmU1YzViMiIsInNwIjo0MDIxNjc4LCJzdCI6MTE3ODk0OCwidHIi OnRydWUsInVrIjoiYzk1MWIyOTItNWM4NC00ZTM5LWEzMjgtNmI5OGNmYjI5 ZDAxIiwiem4iOjI1ODc0NCwidHMiOjE2NjE2NTAxMTE1MTcsInBuIjoia2V2 ZWwtYWN0aW9uLTIiLCJnYyI6dHJ1ZSwiZ0MiOnRydWUsImdzIjoibm9uZSIs InR6IjoiVVRDIiwidXIiOiJodHRwczovL3d3dy5mb29sLmNvbS5hdS9mcmVl LXN0b2NrLXJlcG9ydC81LXN0b2Nrcy1iZXR0ZXItdGhhbi1zaG9ydC1lY2Fw Lz9zb3VyY2U9aWF1c3BwNzQxMDAwMDA2MyZhZG5hbWU9QVVfU0FfNV9CZXR0 ZXJfVGhhbiZwbGFjZW1lbnQ9cGl0Y2gmcGlkPUFVX1NBXzVfQmV0dGVyX1Ro YW4mY29udj0lY29udmVyc2lvbmlkJSJ9&s=d9pnXZvb2D7Kxn9OFBrKBWOeZfg)

Before you consider Qantas Airways Limited, you'll want to hear this. Motley Fool Investing expert Scott Phillips just revealed what he believes are the 5 best stocks for investors to buy right now... and Qantas Airways Limited wasn't one of them

[SHVC]

Last I saw REX don't outsource 30% of their flying
Last I saw REX don't crew their international flying with foreign workers
It is QF/JQ treating their staff like a cost that is easily outsourced

And not just kneel over, I would like this bullying dinosaur monopoly to go the same way as AN

Ah definitely a disgruntled interviewee that couldn’t pass. Don’t worry Rex have their issues they’re bad if not worse in some aspects on how they treat their staff remember that nasty letter, oh how you pick and choose. .

but hey, I don’t mind Rex, I just hate JS and his BS I wish he would fade away as he has had his time. To wish they go by the way AN, never in a million yrs would I ever wish that on a company that employees ppl in my country. You are a sorry sad person to have the thoughts you do. I hate to break it to you tho, QF/JQ and rest of the group you hate so much will not be going anywhere anytime soon, they will fix the issues get back to where they need to be and will still be around in 10-20 or even 100yrs.

Keep doing those SHL and practice interviews you will get there one day, I wish you to succeed.

[Deano969]

Ah definitely a disgruntled interviewee that couldn’t pass. Don’t worry Rex have their issues they’re bad if not worse in some aspects on how they treat their staff remember that nasty letter, oh how you pick and choose. .

but hey, I don’t mind Rex, I just hate JS and his BS I wish he would fade away as he has had his time. To wish they go by the way AN, never in a million yrs would I ever wish that on a company that employees ppl in my country. You are a sorry sad person to have the thoughts you do. I hate to break it to you though, QF/JQ and rest of the group you hate so much will not be going anywhere anytime soon, they will fix the issues get back to where they need to be and will still be around in 10-20 or even 100yrs.

Keep doing those SHL and practice interviews you will get there one day, I wish you to succeed.

In 10-20 years QF/JQ will be an airline in name only, if they survive
Mainline and international will eventually be outsourced along with admin
Network will end up with the 320/1 and it will become Q City Link
NJS will get the 220s
Unsure about international, but this will be the last to go, but in the short term you will see more and more foreign crews, like their new AKL JFK route
Engineering can't even get 3% over the line when we have 5% minimum inflation, so kiss them goodbye shortly as well
Ground staff already gonski
You'd have to be Irish to know your job is secure

PS fixed your spelling

[Ladloy]

Last I saw REX don't outsource 30% of their flying
Last I saw REX don't crew their international flying with foreign workers
It is QF/JQ treating their staff like a cost that is easily outsourced

And not just kneel over, I would like this bullying dinosaur monopoly to go the same way as AN
They have used 457 Visas before. 10% of the saab pilots quit in one week less than a month ago. They'll be doing roadshows overseas again soon and begging the government for immigrants. You'll also find a fair few Singaporean apprentices in Wagga. LKH literally threatened to shut down all the east coast Saab bases because of a measly request for matching pilots pay to CPI.

[onezeroonethree]

A world without QF/JQ IMO would be a much better place
More work choices
More choices for passengers
Much better than we have now a QF/JQ wanting 70% (really 100%) of the market to satisfy shareholders with VA along for the ride for perceived competition / opposition when the pair of them would much prefer that the 2 airline agreement was brought back so they could fix prices and go back to the work practises of the 70s

Good one. Let’s take away the last carrier in the country with legacy conditions. Let Rex and Alliance pay become the new norm to aim for.

Rather drive a bus for that money.

[neville_nobody]

Not sure I'd be investing in a business that has negative equity right now.

[dr dre]

Not sure I'd be predicting the victory of a company with $42m cash in the bank vs one with $3.3b either.

Or have a gander at their FY investor presentations. QF's is quite professional, detailed and in depth (https://cdn-api.markitdigital.com/apiman-gateway/ASX/asx-research/1.0/file/2924-02557909-2A1393200?access_token=83ff96335c2d45a094df02a206a39ff4). Rex's looks like it was put together by some high school students (https://cdn-api.markitdigital.com/apiman-gateway/ASX/asx-research/1.0/file/2924-02557574-2A1393046?access_token=83ff96335c2d45a094df02a206a39ff4), is very bare and barely mentions the company's financial status.

[neville_nobody]

Not sure I'd be predicting the victory of a company with $42m cash in the bank vs one with $3.3b either.

Depends if the $3.3B is unencumbered. That we will never know. It might be security for some loans.

If you want full accounts they are available from the ASX. Plenty of share market programs will give you access

[Deano969]

Good one. Let’s take away the last carrier in the country with legacy conditions. Let Rex and Alliance pay become the new norm to aim for.

Rather drive a bus for that money.

Legacy carriers are only surviving
When propped by a government
If merged into super airlines
Are owned by the workers

They are failing around the planet

Points in case
Ethiopian massive government support
ME3 see above
SQ see above
China see above

Or Asian gobbled up by Korean
Or the super groups of Europe IAG and AF/KLM
Or the US super mergers, never by choice, only out of desperation

But QF/JQ don't fall into any of the above
Better compared to mmmm
South African or Alitalia or Sabina or Swiss or Mexicana or Malev or soon to be Cathey
Shouldn't keep propping up these national dinosaurs and plenty have failed already

QF/JQ is a dinosaur attempting to morph into something that can survive, but just can't seem to find the right path
They are trying to reduce costs by outsourcing everything
They are trying to get cashflow by selling tickets in advance, cancelling services, then offering play money vouchers
They are trying to hold market share by trying to bully other carriers into submission
They are trying to increase load factors by cutting services by 10%
They are trying to increase revenue by hiking fares by 20%
They are placing headline grabbing orders for hundreds of new birds then having tens only delivered (initial order for 787s was like 60 odd firm + options to 120 and less than 25 delivered and A320s what is it now nearly 200?)
They receive handouts and concessions from the taxpayers into the billions and still post consecutive billion dollar losses
They launch new routes to India, Korea, JFK, Rome and Project Sunrise, yet can't even run on time or service the routes the already have

Can you not smell the desperation regarding all of these decisions
There is no clear path from the Irishman, it's clearly all a desperate attempt to stave off bankruptcy
And being a private company, they should expect the same treatment VA got when the axe swung on them along with AN

So sure take it while it's there, but be prepared to move to the Middle East or Asia if you seek similar conditions when QF/JQ either folds or outsources its flying

[das Uber Soldat]

OK fess up, which Qantas group pilot slept with this guys wife?

[Deano969]

OOps forgot to mention
Look over there, yep don't look at our losses or OTP, forget about our call centre issues they have all been fixed NOT

Quick look or you may miss it
Hey we are flying to JFK again
Project Sunrise is coming
New A320s and A321s have been ordered
A220s as well

But hey look over there, now we want tenders to replace our A330s cos they are getting on a bit
Yea I know we own plenty of them, but we can sell em for cash and lease new ones, that'll get more cash in the bank
Yea I know we got a ton of 321s and 787s on order and these will end up being the replacements anyways but hey seriously its better to look over there
Na don't worry who's gunna fly em, Network, NJS, JQ or foreign workers, it's still Qantas right....

[Deano969]

Aw crap am I gunna get banned by mods?
Or does PoppaJo or MickyG have my address and gunna pay me a visit
Sundys fa drinkin fellas

:E

[Stationair8]

OK fess up, which Qantas group pilot slept with this guys wife?
With this much dedication to Pprune, the poor bloke doesn’t have a life or a wife!

[Mr_App]

Can I play too?

They are trying to get cashflow by selling tickets in advance, cancelling services, then offering play money vouchers
I had my flight cancelled, the choice was from a dozen other options same day, or a refund.

They are trying to increase load factors by cutting services by 10%
Find me an airline on earth that is not cutting services to grow revenue to offset surging fuel prices? It’s not about making headline load numbers look pretty on financial reports my friend.

They are trying to increase revenue by hiking fares by 20%
Coles and Woolworths about 9%. Kmart 12%. Qantas 20% Rex 11% Your point?

They launch new routes to India, Korea, JFK, Rome and Project Sunrise, yet can't even run on time or service the routes the already have
Seems to be in the 90% range for departures today.

So sure take it while it's there, but be prepared to move to the Middle East or Asia if you seek similar conditions when QF/JQ either folds or outsources its flying
I would hardly call Jetstar conditions legacy. Also did you miss the SH Qantas EBA getting up? Bonza seems to be having challenges getting numbers for its payscale, times that by a few hundred other positions, seems laughable.

Can you not smell the desperation regarding all of these decisions
No, I can’t.

So essentially, what your saying is you want Qantas and Jetstar to fold because it’s good for the industry? (or as above some FO is seeing your misses?)

[dr dre]

Na don't worry who's gunna fly em, Network, NJS, JQ or foreign workers, it's still Qantas right....

Not sure if you're aware Deano but the A321 will be flown by mainline SH pilots, the 350 and the eventual 330 replacement (my guess is more 787s) will be flown by mainline LH pilots. None of that flying will be outsourced. This has already been announced and signed into EBA variations that have been lodged with FWA.

The rest of your comment is quite accurate:



Hey we are flying to JFK again
Project Sunrise is coming
New A320s and A321s have been ordered
A220s as well

But hey look over there, now we want tenders to replace our A330s cos they are getting on a bit
Yea I know we own plenty of them, but we can sell em for cash and lease new ones, that'll get more cash in the bank
Yea I know we got a ton of 321s and 787s on order and these will end up being the replacements anyways but hey seriously its better to look over there


You're quite correct. Qantas is in a strong financial position, a big profit will be made next FY, lots of expansion on the horizon, plenty of new planes on order, lots of pilot recruitment planned for the next few years. Anyone who joins the mainline seniority list in the next few months is going to be in a really good position for the rest of their career.

On the other hand Rex, with it's supposed "much superior" financial position, had 10% of it's pilots resign in a week last month, and I'm going to guess a lot of them to come to mainline. They don't share your rosy assessment of Rex and bleak assessment of QF. It would be unheard of for 10% of mainline pilots (220 odd) to resign in one week to go to other pastures.

[MickG0105]

Depends if the $3.3B is unencumbered. That we will never know.
You can't include "restricted cash" (viz cash being held for a specific purpose such that it is not available for current general business use) as a current asset such as cash and cash equivalents unless it is declared. The preliminary final financial report released the other day notes that $201 million of the $2.787 billion being held as short-term money market securities is pledged as collateral against certain loans.

[Icarus2001]

They are trying to get cashflow by selling tickets in advance,

Unheard of in the aviation world.

And being a private company, they should expect the same treatment VA got when the axe swung on them along with AN
Qantas is a public company, not a private one, do try to keep up.

[Paragraph377]

And not just kneel over, I would like this bullying dinosaur monopoly to go the same way as AN
That’s a pretty fu#ked up thing to say mate. In my day pilots were a strong group, even when working for opposing airlines. We never wished for the opposition to go bust and for people to become unemployed. Sure, there were some strong egos and shenanigans on the ramp, but that’s as far as it went. Deano, probably time to take a break and chill mate, it’s not cool to wish bad karma on others.

[dr dre]

Qantas is a public company, not a private one, do try to keep up.

Even thought it’s a publicly listed company (or as I think Deano means a non government owned one) QF is unique in the fact it’s governed by a piece of legislation, the Qantas Sale Act. It straight up ensures QF will be majority Australian owned. When the last amendments to the act were proposed then shadow transport minister now Prime Minister Albo said that he wouldn’t completely abandon the national carrier to foreign interests.

So if QF found itself in the position that AN did in 2001 and VA in 2020 (although there’s no hint of that happening currently) the position of the airline as enshrined in legislation would see it treated differently to the other carriers.

[teiemka]

The roo will be swimming in dollars this time next year, and pay no tax due to the great stewardship of handouts by AJ. The only advice I have for long term shareholders an opportunity will present at that time to exit the stock at top of the market.

Do not let sentiment sway you, QF has cashed in all its goodwill with the public, in future it will not be too big to fail.

I really feel for the employees who are in this toxic battered wife relationship with their boss. Heard Tony Boyd(AFR Chanticleer) on ABC the other day saying that AJ could be gone end of calendar year 2023.

[dr dre]

Heard Tony Boyd(AFR Chanticleer) on ABC the other day saying that AJ could be gone end of calendar year 2023.

Why? He’s just provided a better than expected annual result and the share price has risen as a consequence. He may be loathed but he’s delivering exactly what the investors and board want.

Here’s the interview with Tony Boyd:

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/saturdayextra/what-s-behind-qantas-losses-/101379090

He actually doesn’t say Joyce could be gone by end calendar year 2023, he says Joyce will probably stay til at least end calendar year 2023. From that interview I don’t think he knows too much about the aviation industry, for instance QF has always had higher fares than its competitors, this didn’t prevent them making billion dollar profits from 2016-2019. I’d also question his description of this current w as the most difficult crisis QF has ever faced, the GFC, the capacity war with VA and Covid were worse.

[MickG0105]

Heard Tony Boyd(AFR Chanticleer) on ABC the other day saying that AJ could be gone end of calendar year 2023.
Hardly prescient. Will be gone before the end of calendar year 2023 is almost a certainty. In 2020 the Board signed him up to oversee a three year strategy. They'll almost certainly be looking to announce his replacement around the end of FY23.

[dr dre]

Hardly prescient. Will be gone before the end of calendar year 2023 is almost a certainty. In 2020 the Board signed him up to oversee a three year strategy. They'll almost certainly be looking to announce his replacement around the end of FY23.

I personally think he’ll stay until 2025 after the first Sunrise flight. He could’ve bailed out in 18/19 after returning the airline to profitability but stayed because they had the Sunrise plan coming up. He doesn’t need more money but wants the legacy to have introduced the longest flight route in existence.

Perhaps the successor will work alongside him for the next few years until he departs in 25 after the inaugural Sunrise flight?

[MickG0105]

I personally think he’ll stay until 2025 after the first Sunrise flight. He could’ve bailed out in 18/19 after returning the airline to profitability but stayed because they had the Sunrise plan coming up. He doesn’t need more money but wants the legacy to have introduced the longest flight route in existence.

Perhaps the successor will work alongside him for the next few years until he departs in 25 after the inaugural Sunrise flight?
As the Zen Master was fond of saying, 'We'll see.'

[teiemka]

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/saturdayextra/what-s-behind-qantas-losses-/101379090

He actually doesn’t say Joyce could be gone by end calendar year 2023, he says Joyce will probably stay til at least end calendar year 2023. From that interview I don’t think he knows too much about the aviation industry, for instance QF has always had higher fares than its competitors, this didn’t prevent them making billion dollar profits from 2016-2019. .

Yep, sorry messed that up on succession.

Regarding the higher airfares, you charge what you can get away with.

From the results presentation seems most media outlets focused on the fare increases to recoup higher fuel costs (10% Domestic, 20% INT). AJ was supremely confident that it would be absorbed by customers without affecting demand irrespective of the wider economic environment. I tend to agree with him in this regard for domestic flying,it’s not like the competitors get a cheaper fuel price, or have more fuel efficient aircraft as percentage of fleet.

[teiemka]

As the Zen Master was fond of saying, 'We'll see.'


Yes, we will, but is that person currently in the QF GMC?

......would it be possible for a successful internal candidate to change the current toxic relationship between management and employees?

[C441]

1. Yes, we will, but is that person currently in the QF GMC?

2. .....would it be possible for a successful internal candidate to change the current toxic relationship between management and employees?

1. Almost certainly.
2. No.

[Paragraph377]

Yes, we will, but is that person currently in the QF GMC?

......would it be possible for a successful internal candidate to change the current toxic relationship between management and employees?
1. Yes. Qantas has a habit of mentoring internal candidates from being virtual plebs to C-suite executive. My money is on Hudson as the most likely candidate. Ms Wirth can’t be ruled out, but Hudson the most likely successor as she has the stronger financial skills.
2. Not likely. The C-suite view the grunt workers as a drain on finances and a unionised pain in the ass. Ms Wirth has a particular dislike for ‘overpaid’ flight crew, as does Alan and Co. It would take a CEO like former suit James Strong to change the QF culture. Dixon passed on the hatred of staff to Alan, who in turn has passed that down to his acolytes. It’s now ingrained.

[RealSatoshi]

......would it be possible for a successful internal candidate to change the current toxic relationship between management and employees?
It is known as the Upton Sinclair argument - "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it."

[teiemka]

I personally think he’ll stay until 2025 after the first Sunrise flight. He could’ve bailed out in 18/19 after returning the airline to profitability but stayed because they had the Sunrise plan coming up. He doesn’t need more money but wants the legacy to have introduced the longest flight route in existence.


AJ’s Legacy is a lot different when he can’t threaten to pull advertising spend.....anything missing(including embedded articles)?

https://michaelwest.com.au/another-milestone-in-joyces-disastrous-stewardship-of-qantas/

​​​​​​​

[Australopithecus]

And this in the ABC:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-29/brief-history-of-qantas-ceo-alan-joyce/101381056

[hoss58]

Last I saw REX don't outsource 30% of their flying
Last I saw REX don't crew their international flying with foreign workers
It is QF/JQ treating their staff like a cost that is easily outsourced

And not just kneel over, I would like this bullying dinosaur monopoly to go the same way as AN

Deano I don't know how old you are and I don't care, Maybe you were around when AN fell over, I was and I was there when it happened. You may or may not be aware that several pilots (and possibly other staff ) departed this life at their own hand after AN fell over.

To wish another airline or any company for that matter to go completely belly up and run the risk of these scenarios happening again shows a sick mind at work.

I don't work for QF.

Deano up til now you comments haven't bothered me one iota but this type of statement tells me you are a poor excuse for a human being.

Hoss 58

[neville_nobody]

Deano I don't know how old you are and I don't care, Maybe you were around when AN fell over, I was and I was there when it happened. You may or may not be aware that several pilots (and possibly other staff ) departed this life at their own hand after AN fell over.

To wish another airline or any company for that matter to go completely belly up and run the risk of these scenarios happening again shows a sick mind at work.

However that is how capitalism works. Bankruptcy is ultimately a cleansing mechanism that keeps cleaning out the dead wood and enables new innovative entrants to come in. It also stops companies getting lazy. Just look what happens in industries when there is no real competition. The 737 is one very good example.

If your whole identity is tied up in one company and or your job then you have bigger issues that probably need to be dealt with by a professional.

That said even if QF did go broke I would be betting folding money that they will be nicely bailed out by the Labor government. They will fire the CEO and the board and recapitalise the airline with tax payers money. The management will walk away with the 10's of millions they have made and the public will be happy that QF still exist. Albanese will be hailed a hero for saving jobs etc etc.

[Deano969]

Deano I don't know how old you are and I don't care, Maybe you were around when AN fell over, I was and I was there when it happened. You may or may not be aware that several pilots (and possibly other staff ) departed this life at their own hand after AN fell over.

To wish another airline or any company for that matter to go completely belly up and run the risk of these scenarios happening again shows a sick mind at work.

I don't work for QF.

Deano up til now you comments haven't bothered me one iota but this type of statement tells me you are a poor excuse for a human being.

Hoss 58

Hoss I was around when AN collapsed and am aware of those that decided to end it all and obviously wish no person that outcome and was in no way referring to that side of things
I will however stand behind my post in saying that I truly wish QF/JQ would fail
It has been a toxic place to work under its current structure, it puts shareholder return above everything, AJ is plugging just holes in dykes ATM
Outsourcing, wet leasing, foreign crews, massive corporate pays, share buy backs, loss after loss and hundreds of new jets on order
Something will give very shortly
Yes there will be short term pain, but long term, this needs to happen
REX will eat away at their market share, AJ will lose this battle, the shareholders will revolt
The JQ Asian experiment was a disaster
JQ Darwin hub a disaster
Emirates deal another disaster
A380s a disaster
Post covid restart another disaster
And the list goes on

We need new blood in this industry not an old dinosaur

[Paragraph377]

Hoss I was around when AN collapsed and am aware of those that decided to end it all and obviously wish no person that outcome and was in no way referring to that side of things
I will however stand behind my post in saying that I truly wish QF/JQ would fail
It has been a toxic place to work under its current structure, it puts shareholder return above everything, AJ is plugging just holes in dykes ATM
Outsourcing, wet leasing, foreign crews, massive corporate pays, share buy backs, loss after loss and hundreds of new jets on order
Something will give very shortly
Yes there will be short term pain, but long term, this needs to happen
REX will eat away at their market share, AJ will lose this battle, the shareholders will revolt
The JQ Asian experiment was a disaster
JQ Darwin hub a disaster
Emirates deal another disaster
A380s a disaster
Post covid restart another disaster
And the list goes on

We need new blood in this industry not an old dinosaur
John Sharp is that you?

[Mr_App]

Will the new airlines replacing the now perished Jetstar and Qantas be more or less safe? Does Safety matter to you Deano? Have you seen the insides of Qantas and Jetstar check and training vs say Bonza or Rex?

[aussieflyboy]

Will the new airlines replacing the now perished Jetstar and Qantas be more or less safe? Does Safety matter to you Deano? Have you seen the insides of Qantas and Jetstar check and training vs say Bonza or Rex?

Having seen the inside of Network, NJS and Alliance who fly a large percentage of Qantas flights I can tell you there is little difference. They all do the absolute minimum to meet CASA requirements of holding their AOC.

[Deano969]

Will the new airlines replacing the now perished Jetstar and Qantas be more or less safe? Does Safety matter to you Deano? Have you seen the insides of Qantas and Jetstar check and training vs say Bonza or Rex?
So are you calling REX and the yet to fly Bonza unsafe?
It would seem to me that there have been plenty of maintenance issues for Qantas

Search results for "Qantas" AvHerald

Incident Qantas B738 at Queenstown on Aug 8th 2022, engine shut down in flight
Accident Qantas A332 at Sydney on Dec 15th 2019, hydraulic leak prompts evacuation
Incident Sunstate DH8D at Tamworth on May 29th 2022, hydraulic failure
Report Qantas B789 at Melbourne and Los Angeles on Sep 22nd 2021, flew across Pacific with fan cowl static port covers on
Report Express Freighters B733 at Melbourne on Jul 6th 2021, uncontrolled pressurization change
Incident Eastern Australia DH8C near Mildura on Jan 30th 2022, loss of cabin pressure
Incident Qantas B789 at Sydney on Jun 21st 2021, gear problem on departure
Incident Qantas B738 near Kalgoorlie on Oct 25th 2021, fuel imbalance and engine shut down in flight
Incident Sunstate DH8D at Port Moresby on Mar 16th 2020, smoke in cockpit
Accident Express Freighters B733 near Canberra on Aug 15th 2018, loss of cabin pressure, first officer incapacitated
Incident Sunstate DH8D at Brisbane on May 13th 2021, unsafe gear
Incident Qantas A332 near Adelaide on Feb 4th 2021, loss of cabin pressure
Incident Qantas B789 at London on Feb 9th 2020, tail strike indication on departure
Report Sunstate DH8D near Brisbane on Jun 26th 2018, uncommanded engine shut down in flight due to confusing maintenance procedures, prop did not feather
Incident Qantas A333 at Sydney on Jun 1st 2018, engine shut down in flight
Incident Qantas A332 near Brisbane on Apr 15th 2018, loss of thrust
Incident Qantas A332 near Broome on May 13th 2019, electrical fault
Report Eastern Australia DH8C near Whyalla on Aug 8th 2019, inflight deployment of ditching dam
Incident Qantas A332 at Sydney on Feb 12th 2020, hydraulic failure on touch down
Incident Qantas A332 at Melbourne on Jan 26th 2020, could not retract gear
Incident Qantas A332 at Perth on Jan 16th 2020, hydraulic failure
Incident Qantas A332 at Brisbane on Dec 8th 2019, rejected takeoff due to electrical problems
Incident Qantas B738 near Christchurch on ov 18th 2019, problem with navigation computer
Incident Qantas B738 at Wellington on Nov 16th 2019, asymmetric flaps
Incident Sunstate DH8D at Brisbane on Sep 29th 2019, blew tyre on departure
Incident Sunstate DH8D at Cairns on Sep 23rd 2019, engine shut down in flight
Incident Qantas B744 over Pacific on May 12th 2019, engine shut down in flight
Accident Qantas B744 near Hong Kong on Apr 7th 2017, stick shaker activation in holding pattern injures 15 passengers
Incident Qantas B738 near Adelaide on Mar 5th 2019, cabin pressure problems
Incident Qantas B738 near Cairns on Feb 10th 2019, burning odour in the flight deck
Incident Qantas A388 at London on Feb 7th 2019, cargo door indication
Incident Qantas B744 over Tasman Sea on Nov 6th 2018, engine trouble
Incident Qantas A388 over Pacific on May 20th 2017, engine shut down in flight
Incident Qantas B744 near Perth on Oct 6th 2018, fuel pump issue
Incident Qantas A388 near Sydney on Sep 26th 2018, crushed phone and burnt smell on board
Incident Qantas A388 near Sydney on Aug 28th 2018, oh happy door
Accident Rovos Rail CVLP at Pretoria on Jul 10th 2018, engine problem
Incident Alliance F100 near Longreach on Jul 16th 2018, engine failure
Incident Qantas A388 near Astrakhan on Jul 8th 2018, low engine oil quantity
Report Qantas B744 at Hong Kong on Oct 5th 2016, engine pylon cracks detected

[Deano969]

To be fair here are the results for REX



Report REX SF34 at Perth on Jul 6th 2021, stick shaker activation
Incident REX SF34 at Adelaide on Aug 20th 2019, wheel fracture
Incident REX SF34 near Merimbula on Aug 29th 2019, engine fire indication
Report REX SF34 at Esperance on May 26th 2018, de-icing boot failure
Incident REX SF34 near Sydney on Mar 17th 2017, propeller detached in flight
Incident Rex SF34 at Adelaide on May 12th 2018, hydraulic failure
Incident REX SF34 near Cairns on Feb 1st 2018, engine problems
Incident REX SF34 at Dubbo on Mar 23rd 2017, engine shut down in flight
Incident REX SF34 at Ballina on Aug 23rd 2016, engine shut down in flight
Incident REX SF34 at Dubbo on Jul 24th 2015, electrical problems
Incident REX SF34 enroute on May 20th 2015, hydraulic problem
Incident REX SF34 near Orange on Jan 12th 2015, suspected fuel leak, smell of fuel on board
Incident REX SF34 near Moruya on Mar 9th 2012, engine shut down in flight
Incident REX SF34 near Griffith on Jan 1st 2011, engine shut down in flight
Incident REX SF34 at Wagga Wagga on Oct 4th 2009, engine failure
Incident REX SF34 at Sydney on Feb 6th 2009, left main gear wheel failure
Report REX SF34 at Orange on Jul 6th 2008, lost wheel on takeoff
Incident REX SF34 near Griffith on Jun 9th 2009, hydraulics failure
Incident REX SF34 at Sydney on Feb 6th 2009, left main gear wheel failure
Incident Rex SF34 near Cobar on Nov 13th 2008, avionics went blank
Report Rex SF34 at Sydney on Aug 5th 2007, curry fumes in cabin and cockpit
Incident Rex SF34 at Orange on Jul 6th 2008, lost wheel after takeoff
Incident REX SF34 near Wagga Wagga on June 22nd 2008, engine inflight shut down

Note going back to 2007 where as Qantas had so many only could search to 2016

[Deano969]

Jetstar

Incident Jetstar A320 at Sydney on Aug 1st 2019, landing gear trouble after departure
Incident Jetstar A320 at Brisbane on Oct 23rd 2020, rejected takeoff due to engine failure
Incident Jetstar A320 at Proserpine on Mar 5th 2020, damage to hydraulic line and landing gear
Incident Jetstar B788 near Osaka on Mar 29th 2019, both engines temporarily rolled back
Incident Jetstar A320 near Mildura on Mar 17th 2020, cargo smoke indication
Incident Jetstar NZ DH8C near Auckland on Oct 13th 2019, engine shut down in flight
Incident Jetstar A320 at Coolangatta on Dec 18th 2017, failure of thrust reverser
Incident Jetstar A320 near Brisbane on Mar 29th 2019, electrical problems
Report Jetstar A320 at Sydney on Sep 20th 2018, thrust reversers did not deploy
Incident Jetstar B788 over Pacific on Jan 6th 2019, anti-ice failure
Accident Jetstar A320 at Melbourne on Oct 20th 2018, odour sickens two flight attendants
Incident Jetstar A320 at Melbourne on May 5th 2018, gear problem after departure
Incident Jetstar A320 at Hobart on Apr 14th 2018, altitude discrepancy after landing
Incident Jetstar A321 at Melbourne on Apr 11th 2018, hydraulic leak
Incident Jetstar A320 over Tasman Sea on Oct 28th 2017, spitting engine
Accident Jetstar A320 near Coolangatta on Dec 20th 2017, fumes on board
Incident Jetstar B788 near Darwin on Dec 21st 2015, airspeed fluctuations and difficulties to maintain altitude
Incident Jetstar A320 near Brisbane on Sep 22nd 2016, haze in cabin, engine shut down in flight
Incident Jetstar A320 at Launceston on Jan 15th 2017, nose gear steering problem
Incident Jetstar B788 near Guam on Aug 6th 2016, engine shut down in flight
Incident Jetstar A321 at Sydney on Jun 19th 2016, unusual odour
Incident Jetstar A320 at Darwin on Feb 16th 2016, haze in cabin
Incident Jetstar A320 at Auckland on Dec 12th 2015, engine problem
Incident Jetstar A320 enroute on Dec 11th 2015, hydraulic failure
Incident Jetstar A320 at Sydney on Dec 3rd 2015, enlightened oven
Incident Jetstar A320 at Perth on Oct 16th 2015, brakes problem
Incident Jetstar Japan A320 near Tokyo on Sep 20th 2015, burning odour in cockpit
Incident Jetstar A321 near Newcastle on Jun 22nd 2015, odour in cabin
Incident Jetstar A320 near Rockhampton on Jun 8th 2015, fumes in cabin
Incident Jetstar A320 near Solomon on Jun 2nd 2015, fumes in cabin
Incident Jetstar A320 at Coolangatta on Feb 3rd 2015, engine problems
Incident Jetstar B788 over Pacific on Dec 2nd 2014, oil quantity indication
Report Jetstar A320 at Auckland on Sep 7th 2013, alpha floor activation

[Mr_App]

It was more a question vs a statement. Anyway, I get your point.

Deano, so who would replace QF and JQ? Does VA and ZL plug the holes? Pretty big networks to try and cover. Would take years and years.

[dr dre]

obviously wish no person that outcome and was in no way referring to that side of things

Yet you want the airline group to fail and put 70% of current Australian airline pilots out of a job.

It has been a toxic place to work

So why do very few pilots (mainline) resign for greener pastures? To me a toxic place is one where 10% of pilots resign in a week.

REX will eat away at their market share, AJ will lose this battle, the shareholders will revolt

Really? Shares up 16% since last week’s results, Rex up 0%.

The JQ Asian experiment was a disaster

Vietnam and HK yes, SIN and JPN not so


A380s a disaster

Whilst in hindsight they probably wouldn’t have bought them as of today they’d wish they’d had all A380 capacity already back. It would be making money for them if they did.

Post covid restart another disaster

Not worse than VA’s restart.

And the list goes on


You missed:
Consecutive multi year billion dollar profits from 16-19, which no Australian airline could match.

[dr dre]

Note going back to 2007 where as Qantas had so many only could search to 2016

Are you serious? Almost 300 A/C in QF group vs 50 in Rex. If you’re going to troll you need to improve

[SHVC]

You have so much spare time JS, don’t you have a jet fleet to grow!

[das Uber Soldat]

Hoss I was around when AN collapsed and am aware of those that decided to end it all and obviously wish no person that outcome and was in no way referring to that side of things
I will however stand behind my post in saying that I truly wish QF/JQ would fail
So its pointed out to you that a large scale airline failure will without question lead to the deaths of fellow pilots, with evidence to back up that assertion via the AN collapse. You acknowledge the reality of this, and then double down wishing for 70% of Australian pilots to lose their jobs anyway, and who knows how many to die, because "It has been a toxic place to work under its current structure"

Have you ever even worked for JQ or QF?

Honestly, what is wrong with you?

You don't like Qantas. Ok mate, "cool". Don't fly them, problem solved. The rest is absolute drivel that I've no doubt you'd rapidly fail to parrot in the physical presence of any of the people who would be affected by your malicious little fantasy.

Most people when they get the 'try again in 6 months letter' just get over it mate. This is spiteful, puerile nonsense.

[43Inches]

I do find the QF egotists funny though, anyone that disagrees with the roo loyalists is somehow a failed applicant. I can say I don't like QF in its current iteration and you wont find me down the back of a J* dumpster any time soon, but I definitely don't wish them broke or such. My comments are purely observations of the operation and management. 10 years ago I was much more in favor of QF over VA, now I'd rather catch the train, QF service is rock bottom now, barely a feed and all 4 domestics about the same offerings and cost and if QF and VA actually have a schedule I'm yet to see it work.

[das Uber Soldat]

I do find the QF egotists funny though, anyone that disagrees with the roo loyalists is somehow a failed applicant. I can say I don't like QF in its current iteration and you wont find me down the back of a J* dumpster any time soon, but I definitely don't wish them broke or such. My comments are purely observations of the operation and management. 10 years ago I was much more in favor of QF over VA, now I'd rather catch the train, QF service is rock bottom now, barely a feed and all 4 domestics about the same offerings and cost and if QF and VA actually have a schedule I'm yet to see it work.
Who are you replying to? You haven't posted in pages and suddenly this?

Why do I get the feeling you just accidently logged into the wrong account and are actually this Deano muppet?

[43Inches]

Oops I said something nasty about the roo, I must be one of someones multiple accounts, poor me. Odd thing is the only company stooges actually caught out for doing that was Qantas, many years ago in the VB vs QF threads.... Now they seem to be trying to imply everyone else does it. Maybe AJ has caught onto Dixons antics.

PS This thread went to the dogs, but I feel pulling out the schoolyard 'you must be a failed applicant' on someone just wreaks of elitism, so I decided to come back and sling some mud gently.

[das Uber Soldat]

Oops I said something nasty about the roo, I must be one of someones multiple accounts, poor me. Odd thing is the only company stooges actually caught out for doing that was Qantas, many years ago in the VB vs QF threads.... Now they seem to be trying to imply everyone else does it. Maybe AJ has caught onto Dixons antics.
Didn't answer my question. Who were you replying to? What 'comments' of yours are you referring?

You want to insult Qantas, fill your boots. Poking fun at quantas muppets is one of my favourite sports. I do draw the line at calling for all of them to lose their jobs however, that is something that would cause enormous harm and as discussed, likely take the lives of some
Not something to joke about. Do you not agree?

[43Inches]

Its a bulletin board, I don't have to reply to anyone. A few have swung the old failed applicant sword and I made a general quip back. I already stated I don't want anyone to go broke. That's different from saying that they are headed down that path and as others have stated their opinions on whether that's realistic or not I'm not going to harp on about it. As for quoting seats filled, bookings, LFs, and accident history means what? Sounds like my dog is better than your cat white noise. QF sucks at the moment, even AJ admitted it, that's why he's so generously handing out $50 vouchers to somebody.

[das Uber Soldat]

Its a bulletin board, I don't have to reply to anyone. A few have swung the old failed applicant sword and I made a general quip back. I already stated I don't want anyone to go broke. That's different from saying that they are headed down that path and as others have stated their opinions on whether that's realistic or not I'm not going to harp on about it. As for quoting seats filled, bookings, LFs, and accident history means what? Sounds like my dog is better than your cat white noise. QF sucks at the moment, even AJ admitted it, that's why he's so generously handing out $50 vouchers to somebody.
You haven't written a thing in 58 posts, then expect me to believe that you randomly pop in with

"My comments are purely observations of the operation and management."

... What comments?!

Your post only makes sense if you forgot you were logged in under a different account. What a crackup. :D

As for this nonsense about 'elitism'. I'm not accusing Deano/You of being a reject because of criticism of Qantas. The thread is filled with criticism and I haven't said squat to any of those posters. You/Deano however, have demonstrated a bizarre, obsessive, neurotic hatred of Qantas, wishing harm not only on the company, but on everyone who works there, even if that means some may literally die as a result. That kind of warped vitriol is in my experience at least, founded in a rejection of some kind, so I'd wager I'm not far from the truth.

If I really wanted to go for elitism, I'd make some kind of vapid comment like calling JQ a dumpster. Ah wait, that you you.

My bad.

Now, make sure you login with the right account this time kiddo. Says which one you're using in the top right. PM me if you need a hand. Computers are hard.

[43Inches]

I think this thread has lost its mind.

And yes I was referring to my comments from 58 post ago if that's how many it was. The point being that I have no wish for any company to follow that path, but QF is tracking that way (IMO).

[dr dre]

The point being that I have no wish for any company to follow that path, but QF is tracking that way (IMO).

Is it though?

I remember (before he went insane) Clive Palmer talking about the Qantas issues in 2014. He said something along the lines of “there’s not too much wrong with Qantas, their fundamentals are strong and if I was the CEO I’d fix em up”.

I think he’s right. The fundamentals of QF are very strong. Big cash reserves, big market share, debt lowest since GFC, very strong FF program, share price on the way up (some forecasts show it heading for mid-$6), FY results better than expected, travel demand coming back strongly. I believe the recent handouts to FF were quite enticing (website crashed as a result of demand). Fleet renewal program underway (mainline aircraft ordered for the first time under Joyce).

Yes there are issues, no doubt about it. But the same was said (QF about to collapse) in 2020 with Covid, in 2014 after the capacity war, in 2011 with the PIA, in 2008 with the GFC. The company is now heading into supposed oblivion for the 5th time in 15 years…..

[Deano969]

So its pointed out to you that a large scale airline failure will without question lead to the deaths of fellow pilots, with evidence to back up that assertion via the AN collapse. You acknowledge the reality of this, and then double down wishing for 70% of Australian pilots to lose their jobs anyway, and who knows how many to die, because "It has been a toxic place to work under its current structure"

Have you ever even worked for JQ or QF?

Honestly, what is wrong with you?

You don't like Qantas. Ok mate, "cool". Don't fly them, problem solved. The rest is absolute drivel that I've no doubt you'd rapidly fail to parrot in the physical presence of any of the people who would be affected by your malicious little fantasy.

Most people when they get the 'try again in 6 months letter' just get over it mate. This is spiteful, puerile nonsense.

A business that goes bust doesn't lead to suicide, poor financials of the employed may
No different to the 9-11, GFC etc if you just got a massive mortgage and got laid off, yea it's tough, but the strong find a way
How's about if your job gets outsourced, or if the Irishman grounds the airline, would this not have the same effect?
If a company goes bust, people don't stop flying, as with AN, VB and QF stepped in, AN mark 2 ran for a short while with 320s and a short time later capacity matched demand, so who flew these birds?

Uber please stop playing the death card

[Australopithecus]

Where is the “ignore user” button again?

never mind, found it.

Bye Deano, you toxic child.

[SHVC]

I am perplex as to why another human would want to see another human loose their job just because they think a company is to big. I bet you’re a treat around the dinner table.

[transition_alt]

I am perplex as to why another human would want to see another human loose their job just because they think a company is to big. I bet you’re a treat around the dinner table.

Sounds similar to the people wishing to see Rex and Bonza fail on other threads, just because they don’t like the management or what the airline is.

As soon as QF is on the attack, it’s all defensive.

[PoppaJo]

Is a difference between ‘wishing to fail’ and ‘destined to fail’.

Dr Tony Weber has a good analysis on why Bonza is doomed. Digging into data around population and market sizes. If the numbers don’t stack up, they don’t stack up.

Time will tell.

[1A_Please]

REX will eat away at their market share, AJ will lose this battle, the shareholders will revolt

Sorry but this is delusional. As at today QF has a mainline domestic fleet of around 20,000 seats. This is only the A332s, 738s and 717s and does not include the jet fleet principally but not exclusively concentrated on FIFO as well as ignoring the A333s can also operate domestically. Even after allowing for the 4, as yet, undelivered 738s, REX has a domestic jet capacity of just 1760 seats. We know QF domestic jet operations were profitable in FY22 Q4 as they announced it to the ASX. REX did not make a similar comment because it isn't and if it said it was the directors would be committing a crime.

Emirates deal another disaster
How so? The EK deal has enabled QF to offer one-stop services to Europe and Africa that it could never profitably operate using its own metal.

A380s a disaster
and yet QF would love to have them all operational as we speak.

We need new blood in this industry not an old dinosaur
What exactly about REX's jet operations constitute new blood? The are flying old jets rejected by their competitor who instead took newer leased 738s that were available. They have the same hard product that VA operated the jets with so not any innovation there. They are flying no unique routes but instead flying a few trunk routes that they only partly fill when selling the seats at stupidly low prices. They pay under-the-odds so much that staff quickly resign when they find out they are eligible for re-employment back at QF or VA.

[43Inches]

I think the same people were up in arms years ago when I was saying VA was on shaky ground while JB was pumping up the debt. The foreign investment from EQ, SQ and AirNZ being the only reason they lasted abnormally long, otherwise they would have been doomed probably 5 or so years ago. You can only sell so many assets and lease back, or blame worker conditions before you have to face reality that the numbers are against you and too many sharks are taking chunks of your revenue.

What did we find out about VA at the end? That the reported losses were the tip of the iceberg not the worst case bet. Of course thats what all share listed companies do, its all rosy until an alarm bell sounds 5 minutes to the bankrupt deadline.

[C441]

A380s a disaster
Not according to many of the pax that fly on them…...

[Deano969]

Sorry but this is delusional. As at today QF has a mainline domestic fleet of around 20,000 seats. This is only the A332s, 738s and 717s and does not include the jet fleet principally but not exclusively concentrated on FIFO as well as ignoring the A333s can also operate domestically. Even after allowing for the 4, as yet, undelivered 738s, REX has a domestic jet capacity of just 1760 seats. We know QF domestic jet operations were profitable in FY22 Q4 as they announced it to the ASX. REX did not make a similar comment because it isn't and if it said it was the directors would be committing a crime.


How so? The EK deal has enabled QF to offer one-stop services to Europe and Africa that it could never profitably operate using its own metal.


and yet QF would love to have them all operational as we speak.


What exactly about REX's jet operations constitute new blood? The are flying old jets rejected by their competitor who instead took newer leased 738s that were available. They have the same hard product that VA operated the jets with so not any innovation there. They are flying no unique routes but instead flying a few trunk routes that they only partly fill when selling the seats at stupidly low prices. They pay under-the-odds so much that staff quickly resign when they find out they are eligible for re-employment back at QF or VA.

Really?

1) So if QF have a domestic seat capacity of 20,000 and REX will have 1,760, this is getting close to 9% assuming REX has 10 738s and stops growing, assuming QF/JQ has 70% market share and REXs jets are going out at 85% then YES REX is eating away at QF/JQ market share by around 5%
With nothing else factoring in QF/JQ market share going from 70% to 65% would on it's own see a shareholder revolt

2) Prior to EK QF had more 1 stop options on its own metal and just as many via Asia

3) Even AJ said better to run 2 x 787s than 1 x A388, again 1 disaster to the next, QF needs the 788s only to fill a capacity gap, they are very slow coming back as they were initially stored with the intention of never coming back, AJ many times predicted a surge in demand post covid but did nothing about it, now there is talk about wet leases 787s coming (hey they may well be permanent!!!)

4) New blood does not mean new routes of frames, it means a new way of doing things, like being a lower cost base as JS said cheaper that JQ for example or how about offering old fashioned and value for money to their customers or even getting luggage to the destination

[Mr_App]

assuming REX has 10 738s and stops growing,
Hold on, won’t Rex’ market share go backwards?

Virgin will throw another 30 in, Bonza 5-10, Jetstar say about 10.

Whilst I agree that QF market share might trend backwards in the short term, but that’s largely due to Virgin and a lack of QF Mainline orders rolling in at the moment.

[aussieflyboy]

Not according to many of the pax that fly on them…...

Its a pax aeroplane not a business managers aeroplane. The fact is the Dash 8s or 717s will fly more passengers per aeroplane and make more money for the group then the 380s ever will.

[neville_nobody]

Its a pax aeroplane not a business managers aeroplane. The fact is the Dash 8s or 717s will fly more passengers per aeroplane and make more money for the group then the 380s ever will.

Whilst there is some truth in that, yield management has a lot to do with how much money an aircraft makes. If it is truly a passenger's aircraft they will pay a premium. It also has premium cabins which don't exist on a Dash 8 or 717.
The Concorde would be the extreme example of all that in practice. It even had it's own lounge for one aircraft type, however the offering was so compelling that people paid the money.

[1A_Please]

So if QF have a domestic seat capacity of 20,000 and REX will have 1,760, this is getting close to 9% assuming REX has 10 738s and stops growing, assuming QF/JQ has 70% market share and REXs jets are going out at 85% then YES REX is eating away at QF/JQ market share by around 5%
With nothing else factoring in QF/JQ market share going from 70% to 65% would on it's own see a shareholder revolt
I don't think anyone other than you believes REX is getting anywhere near an average of 85% load factor. In addition, REX is only getting any sort of loads by selling seats far less than QF would ever countenance. QF's RASK is far better than REX.

Prior to EK QF had more 1 stop options on its own metal and just as many via Asia
Prior to the EK alliance, QF could only fly you to LHR or FRA with one stop. Now with EK it can fly you to PRG, WAW, BUD, CDG, MUC, DUS, GLA, DUB, MAD with full recognition of status etc.
Even AJ said better to run 2 x 787s than 1 x A388, again 1 disaster to the next, QF needs the 788s only to fill a capacity gap, they are very slow coming back as they were initially stored with the intention of never coming back, AJ many times predicted a surge in demand post covid but did nothing about it, now there is talk about wet leases 787s coming (hey they may well be permanent!!!)
So you are saying QF has bounced back so well they need more capacity which they do. Yes, they could have planned the bounceback better but then again no one really knew what would happen.
New blood does not mean new routes of frames, it means a new way of doing things, like being a lower cost base as JS said cheaper that JQ for example or how about offering old fashioned and value for money to their customers or even getting luggage to the destination
What does REX do that is new? It flies the same planes but on average way older with a frequency that makes it pointless for business travellers on the same routes. Your impeccable source for their supposed cost advantage is John Sharp who has proved himself nothing but incompetent over the past year. I'm sure the Singaporeans only kept him around because he said he knew people in the federal government and that's not even true anymore.

I notice you didn't comment on the respective profitability of the domestic operations. QF made a statement to ASX that domestic was profitable in FY22 Q4. REX didn't because it isn't and for JS etc to make a statement like that would be a crime. In fact, REX's amateurish report on its results did not even break out its results between its legacy regional services and its probably doomed mainline folly.

[C441]

Its a pax aeroplane not a business managers aeroplane.
….that was regularly full or nearly full of premium pax paying commercial fares in both Business and First Class. Maybe that's changed post-Covid but I doubt it judging by how difficult it is to get a seat. For example, there are less than 2 seats in any premium class on any of the next 5 days between SIN and LHR, including none on 3 of those 5 days. At the fares that are being charged, I highly doubt they are running at a loss.

[1A_Please]

The fact is the Dash 8s or 717s will fly more passengers per aeroplane
A meaningless statistic given different stage lengths. The correct measure is RPKs and it is likely an A380 would easily beat a Dash 8 with this measure.

[Deano969]

[QUOTE=1A_Please;11288158]I don't think anyone other than you believes REX is getting anywhere near an average of 85% load factor. In addition, REX is only getting any sort of loads by selling seats far less than QF would ever countenance. QF's RASK is far better than REX.
/QUOTE]

I can guarantee you that QF/JQ are indeed selling seats cheaper than REX and you can lock this in as well, they are selling far more than REX at these low prices
That's where REX has an advantage with minimal daily flights on the triangle, as QF/JQ discount around REX's schedule they discount same time departure where they can as well as flights departing within an hour, this can be up to 5 flights with discounted seats to stifle REX's 1 flight, bet that's great for the bottom line...

[MickG0105]

I don't think anyone other than you believes REX is getting anywhere near an average of 85% load factor. ...

For the last three weeks of this month to and including Sunday 28 August, Rex has managed a 70 percent load factor across their jet network. Sydney-Melbourne loads ran at 68.7 percent for that period.

... In addition, REX is only getting any sort of loads by selling seats far less than QF would ever countenance. QF's RASK is far better than REX.
Thanks to Rex spruiking their revenue for July in an ASX release on 2 August, you can calculate their RASK for jet ops. It comes in at about $0.1125. On the basis that that revenue was meant to have been off the back of 86 percent loads, less than 12 cents per ASK is most assuredly nothing to write home about (unless, of course, you've only been pulling down 5-6 cents/ASK previously). Back of the napkin, RASK over the past three weeks has been around 9.4 cents.

[Paragraph377]

Gareth Evans sent out a nice ‘farewell Gerry’ email yesterday as it was Gerry Turners last day at JQ. Although a fairly easy individual to get along with, Turner leaves with a nice bundle of QF shares and the legacy of having financially benefited from being one of Alan’s protected species. The ‘still wet behind the ears’ safety kid Franzi has some big shoes to fill, that’s for sure.

[RickNRoll]

[QUOTE=1A_Please;11288158]I don't think anyone other than you believes REX is getting anywhere near an average of 85% load factor. In addition, REX is only getting any sort of loads by selling seats far less than QF would ever countenance. QF's RASK is far better than REX.
/QUOTE]

I can guarantee you that QF/JQ are indeed selling seats cheaper than REX and you can lock this in as well, they are selling far more than REX at these low prices
That's where REX has an advantage with minimal daily flights on the triangle, as QF/JQ discount around REX's schedule they discount same time departure where they can as well as flights departing within an hour, this can be up to 5 flights with discounted seats to stifle REX's 1 flight, bet that's great for the bottom line...

You have to wonder if that's legal behaviour from the airlines competing against Rex.

[RickNRoll]

https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/jetstar-grounds-half-its-long-haul-fleet-as-thousands-stuck-abroad-20220906-p5bfpf.html?btis
maintenance woes ground half of JQ long haul fleet.

[SHVC]

This mess has been in the news cycle all morning! JQ CP even fronted the media as the CEO has already packed his desk up. Next CEO will inherit a mess and massive PR disaster. JQ has had its issues but nothing like this.

[Icarus2001]

Bloody Covid now affecting B787 aircraft.