City University - Is this for real?

[Piper Warrior Pilot]

I have just visited the City University, London and noticed that they offer an Msc In Air Transport Operations with an Airline Transport Pilot Licence being awarded at the end of it. This all sounded good until i noticed the prices.

'The programme has been set up as a self-financing, full-fee course, through UCAS. Tuition fees for the ATPL at Year 2 will be in the region of £40,000 – £65,000. The City University tuition fee for entry in October 2002 will be £9,000 at Year 1 and £6,000 at Year 3.'

Where on earth do they expect students to obtain, possibly 80,000 pounds?

Is it just me, or is this slightly impossible to do.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Well, that only makes it 20 - 25% more expensive than a regular ATPL course that scores of people do every year.

What is so impossible about that?

[Piper Warrior Pilot]

Where do they expect people to get 80,000 pounds from. It is hard enough as it is trying to finance an ATPL course. Most people struggle to get even half to three quarters of the money required for an ATPL course. Surely you can just walk into your local bank and say

'Can you loan me 80,000 pounds please'

[foghorn]

There are plenty of people with access to this kind of money, however those who do not have rich relatives usually are slightly older.

The South-East's house market means that it is not unusual for people to own a house with £100,000 of equity. This can be borrowed against.

The recent IT and investment banking booms (both now sadly over:(), mean that there are plenty of otherwise ordinary people with £50,000+ in cash burning a hole in their pockets.

These factors, plus the fact that integrated courses are in real terms cheaper than they were a decade ago, have lowered the barrier to entry in the airline jobs market.

This is exactly why so many people on here recommend to those desperate youngsters who are trying to remortgage their parent's house at 17 to pay for an Oxford fATPL, to step back, see the world, build up some savings and a good credit rating, then come back to aviation in 5-10 years time.

cheers!
foggy.

[Don Stirling]

As the Course Director for City University's BSc (Honours) course in Air Transport Operations (ATOps) with ATPL I feel I must respond tp Piper Warrior Pilot's comments. I hope the moderators will not feel this is open advertising.

Yes, the degree is expensive - but training to be an airline pilot is expensive. We use three FTOs - BAE Systems, Cabair and OATS - to provide the full integrated ATPL course which makes up the second year of the degree. We have no control over this cost - it is between the individual student and the FTO to negotiate the cost.

The University fee of £15000 may seem high. However this is the true cost of a University education. Most readers of this forum will be aware of the Government's attitude to flying as an occupation. Hence when the degree was set up HEFCE refused to provide any funding for the course. When you enrol on most dgeree courses and pay your £1000 pa tuition fee the university will normally receive about £7000 per student per annum from HEFCE. They will not pay this for an ATOps student, hence the ATOps student has to pay it himself. Unfortunate, but take it up with the Government. We did not have much success.

Students on the course HAVE found the money - and they do not all have rich parents. Some of them have shown great ingenuity and perseverance obtaining loans and grants from various different organisations to fund the total.

City Universiity did not initiate the course. We were approached by FTOs as prospective students were worried that, after spending £50000 on an ATPL and no job at the end (nothing is guaranteed) they had no other qualification to tide them over. We then used input from the CAA, GAPAN and BA to decide on the course content. Now, when you finish you have a "frozen" ATPL and an Honours degree. By the way the third year (after the ATPL) can be taken part-time so if you are exceptionally lucky and do get a flying job straight after the ATPL you can still finish the degree as well.

Apologies for the long post but Piper Warrior Pilot's comments were a bit strong to let go without a response.

[Piper Warrior Pilot]

I didnt mean for my comments to sound offensive to City University. Thankyou very much for your response, i have taken into account the fact that City University has a very good reputation as well as the fact that it uses some of the best FTO's in the country and technically speaking, the course is not that expensive when i take into account the fact that i will have a ATPL(f) and an honours degree.

Sorry if my comments were taken as offensive and once again thankyou very much Don for your replie.

regards

[PPRuNe Towers]

....and Danny was a speaker for prospective students and their families when they visited the campus. The costs may well be out of reach for most of you but it is a very well thought through and constructed course. Don's explanation is both accurate and welcome.

rob

[laurie]

From Piper Warrior Pilot:

"thankyou very much Don for your replie."

What are you trieing to insinuate, PWP? :)

Regards,


Laurie

[patience]

merely pointing out untold facts..

th UK College of Aeronautics, at Cranfield University was established in 1945 and is possibly one of the leading best Universities in the world. In aeronautical terms it has few rivals. They have a part time MSc in Air Transport Management that a number of pilots were on when I visited. It is more for hardnose airline managers than the City Uni course, a bit harder to get to get to (by road or air), and although you need a good degree to get to (ahem).. it is (bizarrely) cheaper than the alternative..

and there's plenty of cheap flying on the the airfield.. I'm not knocking the purpose-built City course (-marketed to a different audience).. but I would not want the home of UK aeronautical science overlooked in favour of 'conveniently placed alternatives'

Non? Patience.

[Piper Warrior Pilot]

Is the course at Cranfield and City University only for those who already have a degree in their posession?

Also, does anyone know how it is possible to obtain the amount of money required for the course at City. This is because i do not come from a rich family and i would love to do the course if i could obtain that amount of money.

[Airbus Girl]

patience, I think you will find that City Uni also run an MSc in Air Transport Management, which as a stand alone is obviously going to be much cheaper than a course that includes an ATPL.

The course gives the same qualification as the one at Cranfield but the modular system at City is aimed at people who are currently working full time and is particularly suitable for current line pilots as the modular system fits in easily with airline style rosters.

So its up to the individual as to which course fits them best. Costs are very similar and the content is virtually the same at both Unis. Both Unis are well respected.

City also have a new MSc in Safety Management, and for those who do the original MSc in ATM they may add the Safety Management modules at reduced cost to give them a Diploma in Safety Management in addition to their MSc in Air Transport Management.

I don't think the MSc is really aimed at people who are already "hard nosed managers" but more at those pilots who are looking to the future and want to equip themselves with management skills, should the opportunity arise in an airline, or to "insure" themselves with skills should they ever lose their medical.

The majority of those on the MSc course at City are current line pilots, plus there are some engineers, ATCers and a few others.

The entry for the MSc is an ATPL or a degree.

[Don Stirling]

A bit of confusion has crept in here.

The Bsc (Honours) in Air Transport Operations at City is a three year undergraduate course which includes an ATPL at year 2.

The MSc in Air Transport Management offered by City is a post-graduate course. One entry qualification is prior possession of an ATPL.

The MSc in Air Transport Management at Cranfield is also post-grad.

Only the BSc ATOps includes the ATPL in the course.

[patience]

Aye, none of the MSc courses has an ATPL thrown in. But Cranfield is home to Bonus and Cabair who both do ATPL courses (sorry if I missed any other reputable school out). Do you honestly think that integrating a BSc with flying will yield any discount for the lot?

The course in London (re Roger Wootton et al) is structured for maximum flexibility (ie for those with rosters that shift like sand), which is absolutely brilliant for those of us working for ‘not quite so supportive companies’ –and bravo to that –I know GAPAN had a lot to do with the initiation of the course. The idea is absolutely essential to companies (particularly larger companies like BA etc) that recognise the innate potential in each of its pilots, to contribute to the airline (inc outside operations).

But here is where the debate on reputability begins: Assuming Pilots are intelligent (a debate for another thread, ho), and this training is necessary/desirable. So what level of academic study do you place a course award? BTEC, HND/C, Diploma, Certificate? Where? MSc? The academic training we are talking about is decreed to be at the same level as post–grad classroom study.. so fine call it an MSc..

On making my decision on where to go for my MSc, it was odds on certain for City due to (mainly) the core skills being aimed at pilots (ie moi), the flying fraternity there, and lastly the flexibility. Cranfield is an airfield in the middle of nowhere..

However, what changed my mind was that the basic entrance requirement was my ATPL (akin to a very very long A-Level course), leaving my shiny degree irrelevant. Horrified at what appeared like an appalling abandonment of institutional self-respect–and cheapening of the name of a British education, I looked elsewhere.. Flame away.. but its this continual lowering of the bar, tactical pricing, overseas marketing and businesslike way of what were the bastions of global technology and management that is ultimately weakening our economy (flame that as twaddle, and you’ll give your alma mata away). The corrosion won’t be undone. The Cranfield course is not aimed at pilots, its aimed at people aspiring to top airline management (yes, not me- diplomat, I am not), and the materials are rather different I was assured by a gentleman who may well have been Professor of ATM on both courses, no name necessary. Endaxi.

Forgive me if this is a stir, I will bring my uncooked BK Whoppers out for the responses…

Patience; I have.
;)

[Airbus Girl]

patience, I don't think I totally understand your post.

However, if you are saying that you think the course is no good because you don't need a degree to get in (if you have an ATPL), then can I add a couple of thoughts.

The CAA say that the ATPL is equivalent to first year degree level.

When City started its MSc, BSc in a similar subject were only just starting, at least, I don't think anyone had graduated at that time.

So they set the entry as degree or ATPL with experience.

Are you saying that if someone had a degree in, say, Social Sciences, or History, then that would be worth more, and be more appropriate, than someone with an ATPL and experience in the industry?

You can't get through an ATPL if you are stupid. Surely the point of having a degree as an entry to an MSc course is to prove that the person is capable of study at a higher level? For some courses also you need relevant experience of the subject, which in many cases would be an undergraduate degree in the same subject. But as there was not a BSc in Air Transport Management, they chose to accept people with an ATPL and experience as an option.

I don't think you can say the course is dumbed down in any way, the lecturers are the top people in their field. You may be surprised at the quality of the people who come in to "teach" the modules. This is what makes the course expensive. Of course, they could just get academics in who have no "real world" experience, but they choose not to.

The modules cover standard management subjects such as Financial Accounting and Marketing, as well as more specific subjects such as Airline Operations, Airline Economics and Air Accident Management.

And a good course it is too.

Now, back to the subject....

[patience]

Airbus Girl,

No no, pardon for the bigoted rant, I retract most of the nonsense I have already purported, and indeed I did wander form the subject –Greatest Apologies.

The idea of a one stop shop for completing a degree and having an integrated flying element would be brilliant, as far as I know only City have this scheme, although as a home student, it would be quite mad to sign up unless you have a hallmarked spoon in your mouth, and money conservation isn’t an issue. The course is, I suspect aimed at another market.

Doing the course at Embry –Riddle (http://www.erau.edu/) or any of the other larger, well known US/Canadian/etc establishments is an option. However, staying in UK and using your summer months for a big chunk of progress would be a lot more cost effective). You could keep current while studying (hence the convenience of Cranfield).

Any road, as has been said before, the ATPL is the only relevant standard in the pilot’s world, and no supplementary degree will overshadow it. Its better to do well at what you do do (eg Sociology) and enjoy it, than plough through a career augmenting course that you don’t enjoy. As long as you enjoy the flying, la vita will be good. As I guess will be apparent soon anyway.

Patience
:)

[Pilot16]

Would it not be so much better and convenient for people if the pilot training could be done else where other then at expensive training establishments such as Oxford and Cabair? That way the Air Transport Operations course would be easier to afford. Id say...a residentioan ATPL at Oxford costs £5,495, where as at places like Guildhall University (now Metropolitan University) it is less than £2,500, what a neat price with quality teaching.

P16