If you're scud-running, don't follow rising terrain.

[Robbiee]

https://youtu.be/V5M4JLKKepA

[[email protected]]

Rule # 1 of trying to cross a ridge in poor weather - climb enough to see what's on the other side before committing to crossing so you have an escape route back the way you came in. If you can't get high enough to see the other side then turn round.

Judging by the audio, they were lucky enough to escape alive but only through luck since there was no judgement there at all.

[treadigraph]

This one it would appear...

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/281350

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-62494931A presidential candidate in Panama posted a dramatic plea for help on social media after his helicopter crashed into the country's jungle.

Dimitri Flores, a independent candidate seeking to stand in elections in 2024, posted the video from the scene after his aircraft crashed in a mountainous area in western Panama.

The helicopter was carrying six people, including Mr Flores, all of whom have since been rescued.

[Cornish Jack]

Apart from scud-running being generally 'unhealthy', the titling of that clip is wrong - it should read 'deliberately' , not 'inadvertently' !! :ugh:
Shades of the NZ glider clip !

[Two's in]

If only there were some way to slow a helicopter down, so you could take a cautious peek over the other side of the ridge line, instead of barrelling into IMC...

[Hughes500]

Always taught to fly at 45 degrees to theridge so if one doesnt like what one see over the other side just a 90 degree turn.

[SASless]

Hughes is right....I always eased up to the ridge top so I could see what was on the other side...and if it was ok...over and down.....if not slide back off down from where I had come from....always slow enough to stop and turn around or being able to maneuver to maintain visual contact with the ground.

While flying a 500E in the Pacific Northwest....know for its beautiful clear rain and snow free weather in the Summer.....I was asked by my Passengers one day why I did not just fly high and direct to our destinations.

I explained that come the Fall and Winter....we would not be able to do the high and direct thing and I wanted to know what my inclement weather routes were and know them by landmarks that would be above the snow pack.

Once they got to enjoying seeing Deer,Elk, Bears, and the occasion Cougar....they got to enjoying it instead of a boring cramped ride fighting airsickness....and come the rain, fog, snow, sleet, and low cloud....and we continued making our regular runs without problems....they embraced what we were doing.

Helicopters have unique capabilities but you use them with due care and circumspection.

Most Rules exist because someone did not.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

I really think the title of this thread is at fault
"If you are Scud Running..."

Nobody should be scud running! Its inherently dangerous as this video graphically indicates. There are limits, fly to them! Any other advice is superfluous.
How many helicopters, military and civil have ended up in a heap through this sheer folly.

Darwinism at it most basic form.

[Robbiee]

I really think the title of this thread is at fault
"If you are Scud Running..."

Nobody should be scud running! Its inherently dangerous as this video graphically indicates. There are limits, fly to them! Any other advice is superfluous.
How many helicopters, military and civil have ended up in a heap through this sheer folly.

Darwinism at it most basic form.

Lmao,... I'm just being a realist. We're never gonna stop scudd-running!

[ShyTorque]

Always taught to fly at 45 degrees to theridge so if one doesnt like what one see over the other side just a 90 degree turn.

Yes, precisely. Always have an escape plan…..and a route.

[Torquetalk]

If only there were some way to slow a helicopter down, so you could take a cautious peek over the other side of the ridge line, instead of barrelling into IMC...

Well quite. He just charged on into that big bowl of grey. Fixated on clearing the ridge and assumed if that was clear, the bases on the other side would be higher. Bad assumption.

[Scattercat]

I'd also add that depending on the type you're flying (left seat / right seat?) ... I would always try to have my escape route on my side. Just helps with SA when you need it most.

[Hueymeister]

Ducking idiot....

[Flying Bull]

Yeah, you shouldn't do it.
Darwin Award was promptly awarded...

But I'm wondering, to the left there was much more light - so obviously less cloud.
If I would have been in that situation - I would have gone left first instead pushing into the grey....
So if you ever get caught out - and can't put the helicopter safely down - don't go to fast, keep the option of turning around and look for low ground and less clouds.....

[[email protected]]

And don't cross a ridge unless you can see clear ground/sky the other side.

[Kulwin Park]

Watch the side slip string on windscreen prior to the impact. pause and play as it goes up the mountain.
Interesting as the helicopter is yawing at the top of the peak.

[EEngr]

Not a pilot. But I have spent quite a bit of time hiking in the local mountains (Pacific Northwest Cascades). I've seen quite a few clouds passing over a ridge with what might be sufficient clearance to fit underneath. And then the wind pattern shifts and the clouds pour down the leeward side, hugging the ground.

[blind pew]

Around 20 years ago at the pre worlds flown out of St Aubin one of the top pilots crossed a col in the alps maritime into orographic cloud and lost it. It was probably a lee side phenomena. Unfortunately the french insisted on his gyro instruments being covered or removed for the comp which might have saved him.
I was once engulfed in orographic cloud low down after flying off the beach in Kerry..fortunately I had a sensitive gps which helped me keep my wings level which allowed me to clear the mountain behind. I had replaced the turn and bank with an artificial horizon but didn’t have the time for it to erect.
It was a flash over with a lump of moist air condensing as it lifted. I had been at least 100 yds in front of the cloud which I thought was safe.
Since then I’ve spent many hours parawaiting in and out of cloud on mountains..it’s unpredictable…

[[email protected]]

Not a pilot. But I have spent quite a bit of time hiking in the local mountains (Pacific Northwest Cascades). I've seen quite a few clouds passing over a ridge with what might be sufficient clearance to fit underneath. And then the wind pattern shifts and the clouds pour down the leeward side, hugging the ground. that's exactly why you get high enough to see the other side before you commit.

[SASless]

We used to routinely hover up the downwind side of the mountain to get to the resupply pad on top.....as there seemed to always be some clear air underneath the curling cloud coming from the upwind side which had solid cloud being blown into the upwind side of the mountain.

Combat Rules applied....not peace time Rules.

[[email protected]]

Combat Rules applied....not peace time Rules. Or SAR rules for lifesaving - any other type of helicopter operation shouldn't be flying in anything like this sort of weather, certainly not with fare-paying passengers on board.

[the coyote]

Or SAR rules for lifesaving - any other type of helicopter operation shouldn't be flying in anything like this sort of weather, certainly not with fare-paying passengers on board.

Surely even SAR/EMS in the UK must abide by some kind of defined VMC minima?

[luckyrat]

Surely even SAR/EMS in the UK must abide by some kind of defined VMC minima?
In my old military days VMC was simply “clear of cloud and in sight of the surface “
Afterwards flying military helicopter support as a civilian, we originally had limitations of a minimum 100 foot cloud base above a ridge line, and at least 1000m visibility.
I returned to base on more than one occasion because I felt we didn’t have safe weather conditions.
All ways better to discuss the weather back in the crew room, than in a big snotty heap on the side of a hill!

[[email protected]]

I can only comment on what we did on UK Mil SAR - I don't know what limits are in the Bristow Ops manual - but as luckyrat says, if you could see the surface you were legal and on SAR didn't actually have to be clear of cloud. It had to be justified though - normally lifesaving.

HEMS will have higher minima but again, those will be in their ops manual.

I have operated in mountainous terrain day and night in crap weather and it isn't a place to be if you don't know what you are doing and don't have a really good reason to be there.

The pilot in the video didn't really have a clue and should have found a different route - at least he survived to learn the lesson, plenty don't.

[Cornish Jack]

The 'play-it-by-ear' limits we used on S&R were tempered by experiences gained/endured by our fellow operators. The Thorney 4-in-a-day callouts which were conducted throughout on Decca and eye-balls-on-stalks lookout, or the Leconfield tragedy of the Whirlwind attempting to climb out of a 'valley trap' and entering a Cb, leaving in pieces at 12000'. While you can train the techniques for S&R, each situation is different and is dealt with individually.

[jimf671]

I can only comment on what we did on UK Mil SAR - I don't know what limits are in the Bristow Ops manual - but as luckyrat says, if you could see the surface you were legal and on SAR didn't actually have to be clear of cloud. It had to be justified though - normally lifesaving.

HEMS will have higher minima but again, those will be in their ops manual.

I have operated in mountainous terrain day and night in crap weather and it isn't a place to be if you don't know what you are doing and don't have a really good reason to be there.

The pilot in the video didn't really have a clue and should have found a different route - at least he survived to learn the lesson, plenty don't.


ORS4 Nos 1070 & 1081 apply for UK SAR. These are exemptions and not specific so, yes, the actual limits, and associated mitigations, will be in the contractor's Ops Manual.

[SASless]

Memory serves me that in the mid-70's the BHL Ops Manual said "Day- Clear of Cloud"....and maybe 500M Vis but that was what was printed on the parchment.....Reality was a bit different.

Trundling out to the Ekofisk from Teeside one morning with a very senior Bristow Pilot.....I asked for any advice he could offer as I was brand new to the North Sea.

His one admonition was never lose sight of the surface be it dirt or water.

I reminded him that we had not seen either for almost two hours and his reply was ....."Monsieur Sasless.....do as I say do....not as I do!".

He was a joy to fly with and more fun to share a Pint with.

One of his other tricks of the trade was to use ATT Mode on the 212, Force Trim ON....and set the datum for Five Degrees Nose Up during the Hover Check prior to takeoff.....and fly against the Stick Trim so that the aircraft would always want to pitch up....not down.

Were it Scud Running we were doing or just IMC in uncontrolled airspace at low altitude....the difference is more legal than real I am thinking.

[Mogwi]

[QUOTE= Whirlwind attempting to climb out of a 'valley trap' and entering a Cb, leaving in pieces at 12000'.[/QUOTE]

Yes, heard him on the way down. WRAF girl in the back for a jolly, as I recall. Very sad.

Mog

[Mogwi]

I also remember someone hover-taxiing in cloud up Black Mountain in Norn Iron, to resupply a rebro, when he was caught by a sudden gust of wind and knocked the tailwheel off the Walter. I was asked to find the geographic location for the incident report which read something like “ Blah blah operational risk, blah blah, no forecast of gusty conditions etc”. Unfortunately the grid ref given for the mountain strike was a place called Windy Gap!

How I did larf! :)

Mog

[[email protected]]

hover-taxiing in cloud up Black Mountain in Norn Iron, not entirely an unusual event - fair few got the t-shirt for that one:ok: and plenty of others.

[Cornish Jack]

Yes, heard him on the way down. WRAF girl in the back for a jolly, as I recall. Very sad.

Mog
Deep sympathy for what, I suspect, must run very deep !
I was on the 'other' Sqdn and, even at that remove, and after 60 ish years, the name of the Captain is an instant recall ... Canadian exchange officer, Capt B****r, and those with you - RIP

[helispotter]

The Whirlwind crash being recalled in discussions appears to be described at: aviation-safety . net / wikibase / 157258 (remove spaces for actual link).

[helispotter]

Seems like the helicopter may already have been descending as it approached ridge but hard to tell using only the perspective seen from the video. The collision with the trees occurred very soon after crossing the ridge. So 'feels' more like loss of control due to sudden change in wind conditions than pilot suffering from a loss of visual references? On YouTube, I noticed comment by 'Reese Fortune' suspecting occurrence of retreating blade stall. Not being a pilot, I hadn't been aware this could occur in practice even though I understand the concept. But given the relative movement of trees below, it seems the helicopter made a fairly rapid turn to port after passing the ridge. Direction of rotation of rotor on AS350 is clockwise from above, hence retreating blades would be on starboard side. So wouldn't such a blade stall have cause helicopter to roll / yaw to starboard if it wasn't due to pilot control inputs?

The BBC article quotes Dimitri Flores as saying: "I'm very disappointed with the authorities. They flew over here with helicopters several times, helicopters which cost us millions, but which they couldn't land here...". Was he wanting a pile of mangled helicopters to join the one he had just been on?

[[email protected]]

Helispotter - correct regarding which way a 350 would roll with RBS.

[212man]

On YouTube, I noticed comment by 'Reese Fortune' suspecting occurrence of retreating blade stall. Not being a pilot, I hadn't been aware this could occur in practice even though I understand the concept. But given the relative movement of trees below, it seems the helicopter made a fairly rapid turn to port after passing the ridge.
At least he didn't say it was VRS! I haven't seen his comments but have no understanding of why he might think RBS would be an issue at such a low speed - it is a problem that occurs at high speed and disc loading. The logical conclusion from the video is that he attempted - too late- to make a sharp left turn to exit the conditions, and lost control due to lack of visual references (and skill!)

[Ascend Charlie]

Remember that in the AS350, a sharp control movement can defeat the hydraulics and make the cyclic lock up momentarily. The aircraft can roll rapidly under such conditions.

[luckyrat]

not entirely an unusual event - fair few got the t-shirt for that one:ok: and plenty of others.

Been there various times in that green and rainy land between 1976-1986, got the T shirt and replacement underwear a few times!
However in the civil aviation world the only real pressure to complete the task in unsafe conditions is self imposed.
As professional Aviator’s we feel obligated to finish what we are asked to do. Unfortunately pressure from many external sources can lead to disaster!
Be that management, peer pressure, or the actual person behind you in the helicopter.
Strength of character is at time’s worth more than actual flying skill!
Remember your life is no less important than any other, if you survive the flight hopefully your crew and passengers will…..

[albatross]

Remember that in the AS350, a sharp control movement can defeat the hydraulics and make the cyclic lock up momentarily. The aircraft can roll rapidly under such conditions.

I disagree slightly.
In my experience for what it is worth.

High G will do it. Rapid control movement, not so much.
The controls do not “Freeze” or “Lock Up” you feel feedback but the controls are still fully effective albeit with additional force required.
In the 350D the flight manual states that, if encountered, you have reached the G limit of the airframe.
On the 355, due to the dual hydraulic system, this is indicated by the illumination of the “Limit” light on the caution panel.
In both cases you have reached the “G limit” of the helicopter so are doing something you shouldn’t. Decreasing power, angle of bank or back pressure on the cyclic [ or combination thereof ] will solve the problem.
We used to demonstrate this during training.
As to rapid roll…turning the hydraulics off using the push switch on the collective will lead to an exiting pitch up and rapid right roll especially ar higher speeds.
We also demonstrated this very carefully at slower speeds.
Training was done after a full briefing on the system, symptoms to expect and proper actions for recovery, .rebriefed in the air and done carefully. Not something you would “surprise” somebody with.

An actual hydraulic failure with empty accumulators would lead to the same result of a rapid climbing roll which will get your undivided attention. We had a lot of hydraulic problems when the 350 came on the market. Immediate Actions included: “HORN….. OFF so you can think!”
I have never flown a B.
Flying a 350 with no hydraulic is good exercise..especially for extended periods of time. The Sky Gods usually dictate landing on a small pad in a confined area just for their continued amusement.

[[email protected]]

Albatross - agreed, it needs the high aerodynamic back forces on the retreating side of the disc to overpower the hydraulics on a 350 - it's no different to jackstall on a Gazelle.

High g loading is pretty much impossible at low speeds (unless you are crashing:))

I used to to demonstrate the limit light on the 365 as you describe for the 355 - again high g loading required so usually in a steep turn.

[JohnDixson]

Crab, I’ve always been curious as to why Eurocopter/Airbus didn’t either provide larger servo piston area or higher pressure pumps to eliminate the jack stall possibilities stemming from high control load maneuvers? I.e., accept the higher vibratory control loads, include them in the fatigue calculations usage spectrum, and accept a probably small reduction in component replacement time?

[[email protected]]

I don't know John, I have heard tell they claim it was deliberate to protect against over-stressing the airframe but that was refuted by others who said they just hadn't got their sums right - who knows?

On the 365 with dual hyd systems the piston areas are deliberately different so that the system powering the top half of the jacks collapses first, giving the LIMIT light and gong in the cockpit, so maybe it is a design philosophy after all.

[RINKER]

Apologies if already mentioned. Obviously little or no visual references but Is It possible he slowed down so much he lost translational lift, ran out of power and helicopter started to descend.
I’m not familiar with this version of the aircraft it’s power and weight at the time. Or altitude and wind strength or direction.
R

[[email protected]]

He was going pretty slowly when he crossed the ridge and there is no sense of a sudden power demand or Nr decay - it just looks to me as if he realised he had made a big mistake and tried to turn left go back to re-cross the ridge - unfortunately the terrain and foliage got in the way of that.

[Rotorbee]

I am with Crab here. That was just lousy flying. Maybe there wasn't any translational lift left, but you have to plan for that. Instead of trying to go 45 degrees or less, he just flew over the ridge, and got trapped. He did not leave himself an escape route.
Judging by the rant of that politician, pressure from the customer might have been a factor here.
And I am almost afraid to mention that, but in a Swiss forum somebody suggested that it was VRS. My comment wasn't published - debunking it obviously - probably because my tone was too annoyed.

[RVDT]

An actual hydraulic failure with empty accumulators would lead to the same result of a rapid climbing roll which will get your undivided attention.

The one that really gets your attention is if "one" of the accumulators is flat. Watch the old video of the NYC ENG machine which eats the chimney on the rooftop for a graphic display. Hence the importance of fully understanding the pitfalls and gotcha's on the system and a preflight test and understanding what it is telling you. Another "gotcha" is the number of people who have had failures on models with the TR compensator and select HYD TEST instead of HYD OFF. Even more fun.

[SLFMS]

I agree with Crab and other comments. Looks to me like he slowed down lost translation and lost NR pulling the collective. The horn is on well before he hits the tree and I suspect the left yaw is not intentional but rather LTE as his rotor droops.
That was my initial impression.

Incidentally I think it is astounding there was even a single survivor let alone everyone on board. That’s a long drop after it hits the tree before hitting the ground.

[helispotter]

The 'good' thing about this accident, aside from fatality free outcome, is that the lead-up to it occurring was captured on video so that any trainee pilots (helicopter or otherwise) can see how rapidly the situation turns nasty for VFR into IFR conditions. Hope the video finds its way into pilot training material. Reminds me of another video involving a wedding party flying in an R44 (Title: "Bride Killed in Helicopter Crash (Warning: Distressing Footage)") in what looked like IMC conditions when it crashed. Sadly the outcome 4 fatalities in that case.

[paco]

Yeah, I use that one in my CRM courses. Talking about Fate Is The Hunter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2MVDY8o7Bs

[Robbiee]

The 'good' thing about this accident, aside from fatality free outcome, is that the lead-up to it occurring was captured on video so that any trainee pilots (helicopter or otherwise) can see how rapidly the situation turns nasty for VFR into IFR conditions. Hope the video finds its way into pilot training material. Reminds me of another video involving a wedding party flying in an R44 (Title: "Bride Killed in Helicopter Crash (Warning: Distressing Footage)") in what looked like IMC conditions when it crashed. Sadly the outcome 4 fatalities in that case.

Well, that R44 video has been out for some time now and it didn't stop this pilot from scudd-running.

- just sayin'

[212man]

Crab, I’ve always been curious as to why Eurocopter/Airbus didn’t either provide larger servo piston area or higher pressure pumps to eliminate the jack stall possibilities stemming from high control load maneuvers? I.e., accept the higher vibratory control loads, include them in the fatigue calculations usage spectrum, and accept a probably small reduction in component replacement time?
Surely because it would effectively over engineering the system, and adding weight, for a situation that is effectively outside of the normal operating envelope? Not sure about the normal 365 but in the EC155 they installed an accumulator on the back right (?) servo unit to cater for a single hydraulic system failure during a steep turn and allow you to return to level flight.

[[email protected]]

Well, that R44 video has been out for some time now and it didn't stop this pilot from scudd-running.

- just sayin' You're right Robbiee, no matter how much we bang on about it on here, some pilots still think they know best and push on - ego vs actual ability.

[[email protected]]

Surely because it would effectively over engineering the system, and adding weight, for a situation that is effectively outside of the normal operating envelope? Not sure about the normal 365 but in the EC155 they installed an accumulator on the back right (?) servo unit to cater for a single hydraulic system failure during a steep turn and allow you to return to level flight. Leads us back to the design philosophy - the upgrade from 365 to 155 still allowed it to happen but helped you recover from it.

[Uplinker]

I'm at the other end of the flying spectrum, (airliners), and have no knowledge of the sort of flying here, so could someone explain the probable sequence of events?

It looks to me that once over the ridge, he yawed or turned left and then hit a tree. So, why do we think he turned left and why did he descend - was he hit by a downdraught? or rollers?

Comments about losing lift followed by increasing collective and then decaying Nr - would not the engine(s) spool-up to compensate for the extra load, or was the helicopter too close to the ground for this to happen in time? He seemed to be very close to the terrain.

Just curious about the physics of helicopters.

[luckyrat]

I'm at the other end of the flying spectrum, (airliners), and have no knowledge of the sort of flying here, so could someone explain the probable sequence of events?

It looks to me that once over the ridge, he yawed or turned left and then hit a tree. So, why do we think he turned left and why did he descend - was he hit by a downdraught? or rollers?

Comments about losing lift followed by increasing collective and then decaying Nr - would not the engine(s) spool-up to compensate for the extra load, or was the helicopter too close to the ground for this to happen in time? He seemed to be very close to the terrain.

Just curious about the physics of helicopters.
ok… I’ll bite…… “I’m at the other end of the spectrum “……😾
I was taught to fly fixed wing first because it was simpler, and required much less skill than flying a helicopter. So the weakest pilots were not allowed to advance to rotary wing, they had the option of fixed wing or ground crew!
For a simple analogy, fixed wing pilot pushes the weather limit on landing, cocks it up, and decides to go around too late. 🙀

[Uplinker]

You seem to be reading-in sone sort of negative attitude on my part?

Not at all; I am just saying I have never flown helicopters but want to understand what went wrong here.

[luckyrat]

You seem to be reading-in sone sort of negative attitude on my part?

Not at all; I am just saying I have never flown helicopters but want to understand what went wrong here.

Nothing intended to be negative either.
Facts remain the same in any form of aviation, poor judgment in poor weather will result in a poor outcome !

[ShyTorque]

It's no different to a light fixed wing aircraft. It looks like he flew himself into a classic CFIT.

After crossing the ridge and met with IMC, it appears that the pilot attempted to power his way out. Unfortunately, the aircraft didn't have enough engine performance and by continuing to pull collective pitch, the engine topped out, followed by the rotor RPM decreasing - which is known as "over pitching". At that stage the aircraft stops climbing (effectively the rotor blades are beginning to stall) and directional control in yaw decreases because the tail rotor is geared to the main rotor and suffers in the same way. Game over.

Had he approached the ridge at an acute angle, he could have left an escape route off to one side with known visual cues (because he had just flown past them). I used to teach my students never to fly to a ridge at 90 degrees.

Even in good visibility, if something goes wrong, such as engine failure in a single, or partial power loss in a twin, or even just a lack of sufficient power to make the angle of climb (such as in encountering a down-draught), you have a ninety degree turn to make to escape the rising ground and have to decide which way to go. Approaching a ridge at an acute angle, the escape turn need only be a small one - and you already know which way to turn.

[Rotorbee]

Uplinker Just as an additional explanation. When a helicopter flies slow, it needs a lot of power. It is the same thing as a FW trying to hold altitude while going slower and slower. In a FW, once behind the bottom of the power curve, you can get in trouble by stalling the plane while using full power, therefore getting behind the power curve is something most pilots avoid. In a helicopter, we operate a lot in this region, it is normal, therefore power management is crucial. Many times you can't just "spool up"(the RPM does not vary a lot in a helicopter, but this is another longer subject) the engine. In this case he was heavy and slow, out of ground effect, it was hot and humid and his ship wasn't the strongest of the bunch (was an AB, no?). while he tried to turn left with his pedals, which would give him a bit more power by unloading the tail rotor, he did not have enough left to hover out of ground effect. He is not the first and will not be the last.

[SASless]

212Man,

Odd...I have never run out of control authority for main rotor control on any helicopter except for the French built designs.....and the BO and BK with roll/jyaw coupling in really steep turns.

I suppose the French just see things a bit differently.....thus no need for accumulators.

The Huey Cobra and the C and M models of Hueys had accumulators for collectives due to the 540 Rotor Systems.

The Alouette III used to have cyclic jams in extreme turbulence while mountain flying in Iran....used to think it was due to cavitation in the hydraulic system in strong down drafts as the sump contents stick to the top of the resevoir momentarily,.

[Uplinker]

Thank you Shy and Rotorbee, that is what I was asking - not that a guy screwed-up, we can see that - but the physics of what happened as applies to helicopters.

But I am still not quite there in my understanding. Suppose there been a helipad near the top of that ridge, are we saying that there would not have been enough power available to come to a hover and land on it? i.e. was the helicopter was above it's operational ceiling in terms of performance? meaning it could only stay aloft with forward speed, but did not have enough power at that altitude to hover?

Because he clears the ridge, and only crashes on the other side when the ground falls away. Was it because his Nr was reducing and bleeding energy as he approached the top of the ridge, and he barely got over it, by which time his Nr was too low to be recovered by engine torque?

In which case, once clear of the ridge could he have relaxed the collective and descended to follow the descending terrain to gain forward speed and lift?

(I am not advocating this as a sensible way to fly routinely !).

[Rotorbee]

Uplinker: Yes, it is entirely possible, that he did not have the performance to hover under these circumstances, but we will not know this, until the report comes out, or better sometbody is interested enough to look it up.
I personally am not sure, if he hit something first and then the horn came on, indicating low RPM or he overpitched - asked too much power - and then went into the trees. But that does not matter.
A short explanation.
Hovering Out Of Ground Effect (OGE) requires the most power. He was definitely in this situation above the trees. As we have already established, he was high, hot, heavy and slow.
Hovering In Ground Effect (IGE) needs much less power. There can be a lot of difference between IGE and OGE. The difference can be several thousand feet. The difference in height over the ground between IGE and OGE is roughly one rotor diameter.
Flying straight and level or even climbing a bit, as in this case, does take a lot less power, than hovering. That wasn't the problem here. He had way enough power to do that.
To answer your question and taking in account, that we do not know the altitude he was flying, he could have hovered IGE on that ridge, but not be able to hover OGE. That is quite normal for helicopters. In that case, the pilot has to plan his approach to the desired landing spot in a way, that he looses translation lift (the help you get from air speed at about 16 to 20 knots, or even lower, depending on the ship) at the moment he enters ground effect. That sounds crazy but isn't a big deal, as long as your landing spot is big enough to do that, i.e. provide ground effect. It is frowned upon as professional pilots, but I think many of us even have landed in spots where we didn't even had IGE performance and on take off thrown ourselves over the cliff or platform to get airspeed into translation lift. Bad, bad, bad.
Clear the ridge and descending was probably his plan, but the clouds were in the way. Going into a cloud in a helicopter is deadly. Most helicopters are not IFR certified, especially not the AS 350 single engine versions. They have no autopilots. Helicopters are unstable in flight. If you let go of the controls, they will do whatever they want (also depending on the ship) and crash shortly thereafter. The pilot himself may have been IFR certified, but chances are high, he was not or not current. Therefore he did not want to go into the clouds for any reason. Even though most helicopters have some instruments to stay straight and level, should you inadvertently go IMC, the results are normally not good (90 seconds to live video explains it all). That is, why so many helicopters do the scud running and accidents like that happen.

[henra]

Clear the ridge and descending was probably his plan, but the clouds were in the way.
That was my impression as well. The turn initially could indeed very well have been intentional (the horn starts to sound only later quite a bit into the turn) upon realising that on the other side of the ridge the big grey fog of death was waiting. Had he continued straight ahead, ground reference would probably have been lost 1 or 2 seconds later. With surely even way worse consequences. In that regard I consider this guy (and his Pax) lucky.

[212man]

That was my impression as well. The turn initially could indeed very well have been intentional (the horn starts to sound only later quite a bit into the turn) upon realising that on the other side of the ridge the big grey fog of death was waiting. Had he continued straight ahead, ground reference would probably have been lost 1 or 2 seconds later. With surely even way worse consequences. In that regard I consider this guy (and his Pax) lucky.
I agree - barrelling in inverted at high speed, a few hundred feet above the canopy, would be a lot worse than what happened.

[Rotorbee]

I wasn't sure, so I watched the video again. I think you hear a "clonk" and then comes the horn. He hit something first while turning, therefore all speculation about having enough power are pointless. He had to descend, otherwise he would haven in the clouds.
I looked in what region he was flying and he could have been between 6'000 to 7'000 feet, but a BA with 6 people on board should be able to handle that.

[212man]

I wasn't sure, so I watched the video again. I think you hear a "clonk" and then comes the horn. He hit something first while turning, therefore all speculation about having enough power are pointless. He had to descend, otherwise he would haven in the clouds.
I looked in what region he was flying and he could have been between 6'000 to 7'000 feet, but a BA with 6 people on board should be able to handle that.
Yes, I think that's exactly what happened. I don't think the rotor is turning at all after the noise of a collision - there is no gearbox whine

[[email protected]]

there is no gearbox whine I should think all the whining was coming from his pax:)

I'm still amazed they all survived it, perhaps the trees they crashed into stopped it rolling down the mountain.

[Robbiee]

Just thought of something. The Scudd-Runners,...that's a good name for a band.

[Rotorbee]

... can I play the drums?

[luckyrat]

Just thought of something. The Scudd-Runners,...that's a good name for a band.

Or a good name for keep doing it and eventually you will be DAMMED ☠️

[rudestuff]

Just thought of something. The Scudd-Runners,...that's a good name for a band.
I always thought "Full Down Auto" would make a great band name...

[Winemaker]

Here's a light aircraft scud runner having multiple warnings and chanes to turn back, ignoring them and getting sucked in to deteriorating conditions. Scary how push-on works. As a solo mountaineering guy I can't count the number of times I've just turned back even with the summit in sight......

Mods, if this is not appropriate to this thread please delete.

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/online-learning/accident-case-studies/vfr-into-imc

[SASless]

I prefer the Title of Rud Scunner!

[SLFMS]

I wasn't sure, so I watched the video again. I think you hear a "clonk" and then comes the horn. He hit something first while turning, therefore all speculation about having enough power are pointless. He had to descend, otherwise he would haven in the clouds.
I looked in what region he was flying and he could have been between 6'000 to 7'000 feet, but a BA with 6 people on board should be able to handle that.

Rotorbee I rewatched too, you were right he hit the tree before the horn came on. It was the turn that came well before the impact not the horn. I’m still not convinced the turn was intentional though, at least the end of it anyway. He looks like he is sinking at the same time and you can certainly lose tail rotor authority while having flight RPM.
It could have been an intentional turn who knows? To me it seems very flat aggressive turn with low AOB that’s what leads me to think it might not have been intentional.
Whether it was or not doesn’t really matter I think everyone knew what went wrong before even watching the video.
It will be interesting to see what comes out in the accident report. Once upon a time when I was crazy enough to ride motor bikes I remember a Mate saying when he had an accident once how he climbed on the bike as it slid down the road to protect himself. I remember thinking BS, you happened to find yourself sitting on the bike while it was sliding down the road, there was no decision in that. Was the left turn initiated by the Pilot or the Aircraft? We will probably never know both are possible maybe it was a little of each.

[Rotorbee]

Well, it could be, but the AS350 isn't know for having a weak tail rotor. I tend to believe in occam's razor, therefore a left turn initiated by the pilot seems the most likely. Where else would he be going? He was slow, almost hovering. The ridge was to his left and behind and in front and right were clouds. I would rather look into pressure by the customer. A politician who ranted because he wasn't rescued fast enough. Some self appointed alpha male who didn't understand at all these clouds are not fluffy things you can just punch trough in a helicopter. He should be grateful to be alive and thank all the trees that cushioned the fall.

[SLFMS]

Well, it could be, but the AS350 isn't know for having a weak tail rotor. I tend to believe in occam's razor, therefore a left turn initiated by the pilot seems the most likely. Where else would he be going? He was slow, almost hovering. The ridge was to his left and behind and in front and right were clouds. I would rather look into pressure by the customer. A politician who ranted because he wasn't rescued fast enough. Some self appointed alpha male who didn't understand at all that clouds are not fluffy things you can just punch trough in a helicopter. He should be grateful to be alive and thank all the trees that cushioned the fall.


All good points Rotorbee and you may well be right. It is valid about turning back where he came from. I was going more along the lines of correlation not been the same as causation. Heavy Heli in the mountains pedal turns downwind off power and loses control with high rate of turn all while sinking stood out to me. It looks to me as if he turns downwind also based only on the clouds. I didn't analyze this one too thoroughly, the root cause is clear to everyone.

[Uplinker]

Thank you for the explanation at #61, Rotorbee :ok:

[helispotter]

Thanks to those who gave feedback on my earlier questions / comments. Unlike the R44 seemingly flying in IMC for considerable time until it crashed, this one at least shows a rapid transition from VMC (poor though it is) into IMC. If I was a pilot, I would take a lesson from this footage.

Prompted by more recent posts, I have watched the video several more times: Earlier, I felt the helicopter was already descending as it approached ridge, but watching the lead-up again, I now feel the helicopter was instead approaching a very steep ridge from below or at best around same altitude as that ridge (pilot attempting to remain below the clouds?) so as it got closer the ground 'climbed' to the helicopter. Also, briefly from about 0:30, the sound from the rotor seems to become 'deeper'? Could this be sound of rotors beginning to stall as pilot desperately tried to gain more clearance passing over the ridge? Or am I trying to read too much into the audio?! As with Rotorbee, I also hear the 'clonk' (first tree strike) within a second before the horn activating at 0:41. Unlike 212man, I have a feeling I can hear the remnants of the rotors still thrashing through the trees as the helicopter falls between 0:43 to 0:46. Thereafter mainly the sound of the turbine winding down (would this have been the pilot shutting down?) and groans from those on board.

[[email protected]]

Could this be sound of rotors beginning to stall as pilot desperately tried to gain more clearance passing over the ridge? Or am I trying to read too much into the audio? No and yes respectively to your questions.

The pilot was doing what poorly trained people do - convincing himself if he stayed close to the ground he could make it over the ridge.

As others have said, it is best to approach a ridgeline from a 45 degree rather than head on as it gives you an escape option with an easy turn.

However, my rule #1 still applies - don't cross the ridge unless you can get high enough to see if it is clear on the other side. He didn't and was then surprised by the cloud clinging to the trees on the other side.

Once in that position he had essentially 2 options - A. punch up into IMC and climb to a safe altitude (probably not instrument rated or practised in the skills required) or B, try to turn round and get back over the ridge.

He tried option B, became disorientated and hit the trees - game over.

[Rotorbee]

If I was a pilot, I would take a lesson from this footage.
Well my friend, flying into IMC and the often resulting CFIT is one of the most cherished way to destroy perfectly healthy helicopters and human beings. We have tons of videos and lectures and fingers pointing at that fact, alas we continue doing scud running one a disturbingly regular basis, because more often than not, we get away with it. Even in the FW world, where cloud clearance is much stricter than just "clear of clouds" it happens way too often. And we brag about it. Flying up a mountain in fog so low you just can see the ground? I even got that as a tip for descending a mountain from my first instructor. Just point your nose towards the mountainside and slowly descend (of ascend as we read in a recent post about an English hill). I never did that because I never had to. But I am not sure, if I wouldn't have done it, once comfortable in an area I knew like the back of my hand. Absolutely stupid idea, I know, but I am human. Hopefully I would remember the time when I scud run over the water and almost crashed. But we will continue to do it. The pressure to get the job done because we need the money or going home instead of camping on a wet mountain top or just because we think we can do it is just too great and will very often defy logical decision making. After a while, most pilots confidence level is high enough to do things, that will get him into situations, where the pilot himself will afterwards say, that was stupid. In case of an accident, his colleagues will think it at the funeral. But to the family and his friends he was always such a cautious pilot and had so much experience.
But we have come a long way since the days, when another helicopter crash was just another footnote in a local newspaper. We have achieved a level of safety that is so much better than 30 years ago when I started. The rules are more strict and companies do not frown upon pilots anymore who take the decision not to fly (not all, unfortunately). Even if there is a child with 60% of his body burned. We are doing better, but this video isn't exceptional enough to change anything. It is just one more story among many. The final report will be much more useful, because we finally would know, why he did it.

[SASless]

Helicopter Pilots are not. the most clever members of the Human Race for sure....they keep right on killing themselves and their passengers using time tested and proven methods.

Rare is it a new fancy and unheard method.

A disclaimer.....I am a member of both groups but somehow did not have a successful attempt at proving my theory despite many attempts.

[Rotorbee]

I always thought the personality of a save pilot should be that of an accountant. Do everything by the book and do not try new methods that are not approved by a higher authority. Since I am also a trained economist, I know what I am talking about. I hate accounting with a passion you can only dream of.

[212man]

I always thought the personality of a save pilot should be that of an accountant. Do everything by the book and do not try new methods that are not approved by a higher authority. Since I am also a trained economist, I know what I am talking about. I hate accounting with a passion you can only dream of.
https://youtu.be/-8I5TtNfjBI

[paco]

"Do everything by the book and do not try new methods that are not approved by a higher authority. "

Assuming the higher authorities know what they are talking about.

But yes, the Bader method is not appropriate any more - nor was it really appropriate in his time.

[Rotorbee]

212man: :ok:
paco: I have to ask; what is the Bader method?

[Hughes500]

Bader was a pilot in the battle of Britain, google is your friend

[Rotorbee]

Hughes500: I know who Douglas Bader was. Read his book many moons ago. But Google does not know anything about his method.

[OvertHawk]

I think it was a reference to the fact that the learning ones limits by going beyond them (and crashing your aeroplane) is no longer the preferred or accepted procedure. ;)

[Rotorbee]

Ah, thank you.

[paco]

Yeah, that would be it.