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PPRuNeUser0154
15th Aug 2022, 20:21
Vulcan XH558 set to leave Doncaster Sheffield Airport in 2023 - Vulcan to the Sky (https://vulcantothesky.org/news/vulcan-xh558-set-to-leave-doncaster-sheffield-airport-in-2023/?fbclid=IwAR3cZln13WlupgdjKMykulbSdpLc0PglO32tY7PdbO-OFSAb7a72MPCD_Eo)

So what would it take to dismantle and reassemble a Vulcan?

GeeRam
15th Aug 2022, 20:36
Crash n Smash did it with the Vulcan that went to RAFM Hendon 40 years ago, but that wasn't with the intention of it ever being live again, so they chopped through the electric looms runs and cables at the joints when it was split......and that was still a huge undertaking. If its never going to be a live a/c again, why bother trying to move it, as there are plenty of dead Vulcan' already in museums?

I think the only way '558 will be leaving DSA is in bits in a load of skips.

Self loading bear
15th Aug 2022, 21:26
Mil-26 can hoist 22 ton
Vulcan is 37 ton
4 engines is -6 tons
minus landing gear, rudder, outer wings, flaps, ailerons ?
just a tought.

DaveReidUK
15th Aug 2022, 22:02
I think the only way '558 will be leaving DSA is in bits in a load of skips.

That much is self-evident, anything else is just wishful thinking.

ZeBedie
15th Aug 2022, 22:02
They're considering flying it.

DaveReidUK
15th Aug 2022, 22:05
They're considering flying it.

They won't consider it for long when they start to do the sums.

VictorGolf
16th Aug 2022, 09:17
But remember that's how it all started before it first flew again.

Jackjones1
16th Aug 2022, 10:45
Move it to where?

DaveReidUK
16th Aug 2022, 12:01
But remember that's how it all started before it first flew again.

Do you think it would have flown at all if the fundraisers had said the money would go towards just one final flight ?

sandringham1
16th Aug 2022, 13:03
They could do like the Victor at Bruntingthorpe, a planned fast taxi, bit too much power and they were flying, just with the Vulcan the inadvertent hop could become a delivery flight to somewhere else, but as others have asked where would it go.
Personally the Beverley deserves a home more than another Vulcan.

PPRuNeUser0154
16th Aug 2022, 14:03
Thanks for all the replies so far.
I remember all the neih sayers who said it wouldn't fly however on this occasion I believe Rolls Royce won't underwrite the engines so flying seems to be a non starter. But never say never.

Was the Vulcan designed to be taken apart?

DaveReidUK
16th Aug 2022, 18:05
Was the Vulcan designed to be taken apart?

Not in a way that would facilitate reassembly ...

common toad
16th Aug 2022, 18:54
Not in a way that would facilitate reassembly ...

Sorry, disagree. Just a LOT of work if you want to reassemble as working aircraft. If your not bothered about cutting electric cables and hydraulic
systems, then it’s just work. Question is, are the original trestles still available?

PPRuNeUser0154
16th Aug 2022, 19:59
Personally the Beverley deserves a home more than another Vulcan.

I agree. Love the Vulcan but no Beverley is worse.

Planemike
16th Aug 2022, 20:06
Move it to where?

Still no suggestion as to where it might land....?!!!!

DaveReidUK
16th Aug 2022, 20:09
Sorry, disagree. Just a LOT of work if you want to reassemble as working aircraft. If your not bothered about cutting electric cables and hydraulic systems, then itís just work. Question is, are the original trestles still available?

Hmmmm.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x400/xa901_6aeb16a9d8cc7e6fde306c0707f6fea2ef5b572f.jpg

PPRuNeUser0154
16th Aug 2022, 20:27
Hmmmm.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x400/xa901_6aeb16a9d8cc7e6fde306c0707f6fea2ef5b572f.jpg
How did they take apart and reassemble the Hendon Vulcan? Presumably it can be done to at least look whole again? Although this explains why there are so many dangling bits in the bomb bay.

PPRuNeUser0154
16th Aug 2022, 20:29
As an aside. In the event the Vulcan has to be chopped I wonder if it would make a good exploded view exhibit much like the Liverpool U-Boat?
We never really get to see inside these aircraft.

GeeRam
16th Aug 2022, 20:33
Mil-26 can hoist 22 ton
Vulcan is 37 ton
4 engines is -6 tons
minus landing gear, rudder, outer wings, flaps, ailerons ?
just a tought.

And the extra load from the downdraft hitting that massive delta wing planform.....?

SWBKCB
16th Aug 2022, 20:48
Still no suggestion as to where it might land....?!!!!

Not an answer, but Elvington have said it won't be them.

DaveReidUK
16th Aug 2022, 22:24
How did they take apart and reassemble the Hendon Vulcan?

With great difficulty, by all accounts.

I didn't say it was impossible, just not straightforward. In other words - in answer to your original question - Avro didn't design in the ability to take it apart and reassemble it easily, as there was no reason to do so.

Jackjones1
17th Aug 2022, 07:47
Well if it’s not Elvington surely the only other place would be a holiday on the coast at Newquay?

Krystal n chips
17th Aug 2022, 07:55
As an aside. In the event the Vulcan has to be chopped I wonder if it would make a good exploded view exhibit much like the Liverpool U-Boat?
We never really get to see inside these aircraft.

The Cosford Vulcan has the bomb bay open so you can at least get some idea of what it was intended for....and I accept, that, for anybody not familiar with the various systems / structure seeing such can be interesting, but really, to be honest, most people would prefer to view a complete aircraft .

Quite what will happen in the end obviously remains unknown, but, as others have said, the chances of a "one off " flight are zero unless, by some miracle, unlikely, various airworthiness authorities decide to grant a dispensation.

Pypard
17th Aug 2022, 20:17
Airworthiness in this case relies upon a Design Authority taking responsibility for the aircraft, that being BAe for the airframe in the most recent past. As I recall it was BAe's withdrawal of that support which grounded it last time. It's hard to believe that a reverse of that decision would be made, and so any talk of a flight out of Doncaster would appear to be mere whimsy.

Pozidrive
17th Aug 2022, 20:54
Well if itís not Elvington surely the only other place would be a holiday on the coast at Newquay?

Yes, all that lovely salty, sea air. That's already destroyed one Vulcan, and not done the Humberside Beverley any good either.
.

DHfan
17th Aug 2022, 20:56
As I recall, all the previously designed airframe life updates had been installed, and BAe wouldn't fund the design of a further update scheme to possibly extend the fatigue life even further.
Add to that the two (?) engines they wrecked by not removing the silica gel intake packs before engine start, leaving no spares, and grounding was the only option.

DaveReidUK
17th Aug 2022, 22:15
As I recall, all the previously designed airframe life updates had been installed, and BAe wouldn't fund the design of a further update scheme to possibly extend the fatigue life even further.

If remaining fatigue life was the only showstopper, they would probably be able to get a concession out of the CAA for a single flight.

But it isn't, and they won't.

Add to that the two (?) engines they wrecked by not removing the silica gel intake packs before engine start, leaving no spares, and grounding was the only option.

Are you saying they don't have 4 serviceable engines left, anyway?

DHfan
17th Aug 2022, 22:54
The only 4 serviceable engines they had were installed in the aeroplane when it was last airworthy. Whether they're still officially or technically serviceable now or not, I've no idea.
Engine-wise there was no Plan B.

Anilv
18th Aug 2022, 01:26
I'd bet Jeremy Clarkson would give it a home....

India Four Two
18th Aug 2022, 03:08
Jeremy could tow it home with his Lamborghini tractor! ;)

DuncanDoenitz
18th Aug 2022, 06:57
I understand that it is still taxiable so, taxi it to .... wherever. A quick scan of Google Street-Thingy suggest that there are no low bridges between DSA and the M18 and once you hit the motorway, well, the world is your lobster.

I firmly believe that endless hours of GTA5 has made me a better and more assertive driver in the real world. In my experience, vehicles can be driven through quite small gaps if approached with confidence. And momentum. Yeah, momentum.

The wedge shape will probably help.

DaveReidUK
18th Aug 2022, 07:46
I understand that it is still taxiable so, taxi it to .... wherever. A quick scan of Google Street-Thingy suggest that there are no low bridges between DSA and the M18 and once you hit the motorway, well, the world is your lobster.

Good thinking.

Conveniently, the Vulcan's wingspan is only a tad more than the width from the outside edge of one hard shoulder to the outside edge of the opposite one (on a 3-lane motorway (https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Dual_carriageway#D3M)).

What could possibly go wrong?

meleagertoo
18th Aug 2022, 10:20
What could possibly go wrong?

Wouldn't all that silica gel cause a skid hazard on the motorway?

Emma Royds
18th Aug 2022, 19:20
Move it to where?

Buenos Aires.

POBJOY
18th Aug 2022, 21:08
Well if itís not Elvington surely the only other place would be a holiday on the coast at Newquay?

Well that would fix it well and truly, might as well pour acid over it.

DHfan
18th Aug 2022, 23:09
And quite apart from the eye-watering cost to get it there, who's going to pay the rent?

Mike Collett baled out after a very short time partly as, IIRC, the rent on the hanger was £250,000 a year after the initial first year free or heavily discounted.

Krystal n chips
19th Aug 2022, 06:13
Out of interest, what genuinely viable locations, two get alluded to in the news letter, would be available ?

Although to be blunt, the news letter also suggests these will not be realistic with the reference to " unsuccessful fundraising campaign " because, unlike the time when money was being raised for the restoration to flight, there isn't what you would call a surplus of cash in peoples pockets at the moment.

Yes, it's an iconic aircraft, but, there are still other examples around and intact. Assuming the airport closure is confirmed in Oct, then, unfortunately, " Mr Vulcan ?...this is Ms Husqvarna....you're both going to be intimately acquainted for a short while " would seem to be inevitable. Maybe they could save the nose or try and dispose of anything that could be used as spares for those remaining examples, but even then, this would depend on the current owners of such having the money available to buy them.

As for the "one off " flight, well apart from the signatures, and costs, for the (unrealistic) issuing of airworthiness paperwork, there's also the not so little matter of insurance and, as others have said, you can bet this alone will be eye watering.

dixi188
19th Aug 2022, 11:29
They need a former Vulcan pilot with Terminal illness who doesn't give a toss. Take it out for a taxi test and, oops!, got airborne.

mark25787
19th Aug 2022, 13:19
It is a huge shame than in hindsight, XH558 ended up being flown into what is effectively a cul-de-sac with very little option now for recovery. Granted that it gave a lot of pleasure when flying but as a now solely taxiable aircraft, is it so dissimilar to XL426 and XL455 that it merits the huge logistical efforts and costs to try and relocate it? Sadly, it looks like it may have to be parted for spares to be used by the other 2 aircraft and maybe a nice nose section display for a museum.
Financial support for the aircraft was waning when it ceased flying as evidenced by the failure to reach funding for the hangar at DSA, although it may be that Peel would not have wanted it there anyway given current plans.

BEagle
19th Aug 2022, 14:26
Neither the cockpit nor rear crew area of XH558 are representative of an RAF Vulcan.

GeeRam
19th Aug 2022, 17:24
And quite apart from the eye-watering cost to get it there, who's going to pay the rent?


By all accounts VTTS haven't been paying the rent at DSA either....

GeeRam
19th Aug 2022, 17:32
It is a huge shame than in hindsight, XH558 ended up being flown into what is effectively a cul-de-sac with very little option now for recovery.

But, its not hindsight. Many people pointed out back in 2015, that landing at DSA for the last time would likely mean it would end up in a skip within a decade or so.
Peel Airports sold DSA back to parent Peel Group back in 2012, 3 years before that last flight, and it was well known that DSA was a financially unviable airport before they landed it back for the last time. This situation as a very real possibility was pointed out by many 7 years ago.....but VTTS stuck they hands of their ears and sung "La-la-la-can't-hear-you" loudly.....
The fanboys have been looking to Covid and all sorts of things to blame for this, but the blame lands squarely on VTTS alone.

Sad if it does get the chop, just as if Navy Wings can't find a suitable home for Sea Vixen, G-CVIX, XP924 that may well end it going the same way, despite that having been the last airworthy example of its type.

treadigraph
19th Aug 2022, 17:39
Sad that the last time I saw both the Sea Vixen and the Vulcan fly was solitary passes at some altitude over Shoreham...

meleagertoo
19th Aug 2022, 20:33
I think people need to wake up and smell the reality.
There are plenty of preserved Vulcans out there.
We just don't need another. And never did.

Pity all those £millions weren't spent on restoring something unique as a lasting historic project instead of a silly superfluous, one-time media-led vanity project.
If only that money had gone to a Beaufigter, a Walrus or a Tempest/Typhoon...We'd still have the legacy today.

Pypard
19th Aug 2022, 23:00
XH558 was a totally worthwhile project and a credit to those who kept her flying for so long. It also allowed countless people of the younger generation to experience the awesomeness of seeing a Vulcan flying. Maybe even inspired a few to get into aviation. So let's not get into some kind of retrospective imagined scorn-fest. i don't recall anyone saying it was unnecessary at the time - certainly after its final "maiden flight". What I do recall is folks by the thousand flocking to see XH558 at numerous shows and flypasts. Even more for the farewell tour.

But what we shouldn't forget is the widely-held view at that time, that retiring '558 to Doncaster would not be a good idea. Also that its proposed use as a training tool was tenuous at best; naive at worst. Sadly that has proven to be entirely justified.

And there may be 'plenty' of preserved Vulcans out there (actually 18 I think), but few have been hangared in recent years as '558 has/had been. Therefore its overall condition alone justifies it being placed somewhere safe, and under cover (but pointless if not).

So I think we need to consider XH558 as the unfortunate victim of selfish motives rather than an object to be derided. Then hope that a responsible and realistic custodian can be found.

DHfan
20th Aug 2022, 00:50
Pity all those £millions weren't spent on restoring something unique as a lasting historic project instead of a silly superfluous, one-time media-led vanity project.
If only that money had gone to a Beaufigter, a Walrus or a Tempest/Typhoon...We'd still have the legacy today.

Don't start that rubbish, yet again. The naysayers were going on, and on, and on, and on... all the time the project was underway.

Rightly or wrongly, the money was donated directly to VTTS, solely to return XH558 to flight.
Other than that, "those £millions" didn't exist so couldn't have been spent on anything.

207592
20th Aug 2022, 06:58
The Trustees responsible for the Doncaster Vulcan are examining alternative sites and talking to the CAA about a ferry flight. Yet another option would be for the airfield owners (Peel Holdings) to donate one of the existing RAF hangers, or all three, to permit a museum.Yet another is for the Sheffield City Region to take ownership of the airfield and make it a going concern. Finningley is ideally suited with new road links and a railway station planned, and a great reputation for service. It could take traffic from Humberside, Leeds-Bradford and Manchester.

If the fate of this Vulcan depends on a short ferry flight, the Doubting Thomases may be confounded.

jumpseater
20th Aug 2022, 08:40
Yet another option would be for the airfield owners (Peel Holdings) to donate one of the existing RAF hangers, or all three, to permit a museum.
.

Do you write political manifestoís and policies as well?

P.S. Thereís five hangars at DSA

GeeRam
20th Aug 2022, 08:50
The Trustees responsible for the Doncaster Vulcan are examining alternative sites and talking to the CAA about a ferry flight. Yet another option would be for the airfield owners (Peel Holdings) to donate one of the existing RAF hangers, or all three, to permit a museum.Yet another is for the Sheffield City Region to take ownership of the airfield and make it a going concern. Finningley is ideally suited with new road links and a railway station planned, and a great reputation for service. It could take traffic from Humberside, Leeds-Bradford and Manchester.

If the fate of this Vulcan depends on a short ferry flight, the Doubting Thomases may be confounded.

After what has gone on before, it wouldn't surprise me if VTTS have not actually dared contact the CAA at all, knowing what the answer will be from them and in particular RR/Marshalls etc........
Of course they are going to say they are exploring that possibility to do the usual stirring up of their fanboys, as we can see........
I can just imagine how that call went, if it ever happened........"Hello CAA, VTTS here, just a call to ask about ferry flying the Vulcan to another location, as we're in a bit of a pickle...." <click>......."err, hello, hello..........err......"

As for your other notions regarding the future use of DSA and its ownership, especially the council trying to acquire and run the airport as a going concern.......that's the stuff of pure fantasy!

Krystal n chips
20th Aug 2022, 09:22
" and a railway station planned, "

Unfortunately, the initial work for a railway station was commenced some 10 years ago....and the land earmarked has subsequently been built on further.........unlike the proposed railway station .

As for the future, welcome to "Dominie Drive," "Vulcan Avenue" , and whatever other types operated from the Station (see BAe Woodford for similar nostalgic memories)

Donating a hangar to house the aircraft sounds very charitable....until you get the bit about maintaining the hangar and paying for the utilities / insurance and everything associated with infrastructure maintenance

GeeRam
20th Aug 2022, 11:40
Donating a hangar to house the aircraft sounds very charitable....until you get the bit about maintaining the hangar and paying for the utilities / insurance and everything associated with infrastructure maintenance

And who is going to donate it.......because its certainly not going to be the people that currently own them!

common toad
20th Aug 2022, 16:49
I found the (part) statement below on an aviation forum discussion regarding the XH558.

A few months ago, VC10 K3 ZA150, at Dunsfold, was placed on the US Civil Register as N150ZA initially for the purpose of a ferry flight to another UK location for restoration to flight.

Rose tinted glasses thinking hopefulness at its best? If nothing else, a good laugh.

DHfan
20th Aug 2022, 17:35
Roy Jacobsen tried that with either XM655 or XL426, or possibly both, in the 80s.
Admittedly that was planned for more than just a single ferry flight but as it didn't work then, although XH558 did fly as a civil aircraft, I can't see much chance of it working now.

PANews
20th Aug 2022, 18:04
Until 2017 the Vulcan had a home in one of the 'five' preserved hangars.

Commercial considerations resulted in the Vulcan charity being told to leave their existing home in favour of 2Excel who were needing the space and paying a commercial rent. The charity had a short term under cover before the Vulcan and the Canberra were pulled over to outside storage.

Meanwhile 2Excel continue to pay their rent and rates and DSA still needs more to be viable. Whether the charity pays rent or not is a crucial element of the survival of DSA.

DaveReidUK
20th Aug 2022, 19:06
I found the (part) statement below on an aviation forum discussion regarding the XH558.

A few months ago, VC10 K3 ZA150, at Dunsfold, was placed on the US Civil Register as N150ZA initially for the purpose of a ferry flight to another UK location for restoration to flight.

Rose tinted glasses thinking hopefulness at its best? If nothing else, a good laugh.

Last flew nearly 9 years ago. Hmmmm.

GeeRam
20th Aug 2022, 20:12
Last flew nearly 9 years ago. Hmmmm.

The Dunsfold Vicky Ten was allocated a US registration way more than a few months ago, it was more like 2 years ago, when Kepler Aerospace bought it off the Brooklands Museum Trust (along with the Brunty example as a spares source)
The chances of ZA150 ever flying out of Dunsfold is pretty much the same as XH558 ever flying out of DSA.

25F
23rd Aug 2022, 00:49
What I do recall is folks by the thousand flocking to see XH558 at numerous shows and flypasts. Even more for the farewell tour.
And IME then leaving immediately after the aircraft had done its bit.
First time I saw 558 we went to a conveniently located pub garden near Dunsfold. Post 558's display we saw a stream of vehicles heading home - didn't even wait for the Reds! Next / last time found another pub garden near Old Warden (tickets had sold out).

DaveReidUK
23rd Aug 2022, 06:34
The Dunsfold Vicky Ten was allocated a US registration way more than a few months ago, it was more like 2 years ago, when Kepler Aerospace bought it off the Brooklands Museum Trust (along with the Brunty example as a spares source)
The chances of ZA150 ever flying out of Dunsfold is pretty much the same as XH558 ever flying out of DSA.

It appeared on the US register around August/September 2021.

Liffy 1M
23rd Aug 2022, 13:21
It appeared on the US register around August/September 2021.

For N150ZA the entry from a search using the online US Register Inquiry page states (US date format, of course):Certificate Issue Date 01/28/2022

Expiration Date 01/31/2025

DaveReidUK
23rd Aug 2022, 16:03
For N150ZA the entry from a search using the online US Register Inquiry page states (US date format, of course):Certificate Issue Date 01/28/2022

Expiration Date 01/31/2025

Yes, I've dug up the details from the FAA download:

VC10 K3 msn 885 first registered as N150ZA on 20 September 2021, but with no owner details.

Updated registry entry on 28 January 2022 to owner AEROVISION LLC, WEST PALM BEACH, FL.