UKMFTS Failing to Deliver...again

[Baldeep Inminj]

Wow. Imagine my surprise that the most ill thought through, poorly run, and shockingly poor value for money system in NATO is unable to produce pilots!

https://news.sky.com/story/uks-ability-to-train-fast-jet-pilots-in-crisis-due-to-faulty-aircraft-and-instructors-shortage-leaked-documents-suggest-12666275

The MOD sold their souls when they gifted Ascent a contract that they had no clue how to deliver. Time to scrap the entire system and replace it with one that prioritizes training over profit.

[Baldeep Inminj]

The UK's ability to train fast jet pilots is in crisis because of faulty aircraft, a need for more instructors and an influx of foreign students filling up the course, leaked documents suggest.

Royal Air Force (https://news.sky.com/topic/royal-air-force-7512) (RAF) recruits are spending months - sometimes years - effectively flying desks instead of warplanes as they wait for training slots to open.
Sponsored link


The delays could hamper the future availability of crews to operate frontline Typhoon and F35 squadrons at a time of growing threats from Russia and China and with a war raging in Europe, defence sources said.

Pilots earmarked to train on other aircraft, such as military transport planes and helicopters, are also suffering.

The backlog is so grave, the RAF is considering asking up to 30 of its recruits to quit voluntarily, one internal note said. It warned of a "reputational risk" if air chiefs took such a step. There is no suggestion of any forced redundancies.

An internal memo from May and slides from a meeting of top RAF officers in July, seen by Sky News, reveal:

• An "emerging" problem with the Rolls-Royce engine on the Hawk jet, used by fast jet recruits for training. It will "reduce pipeline capacity over the next three years". This will increase waiting times for some trainees to join the course to about 12 months;
• Concern about a "damaging drain" of qualified pilots who quit the RAF for better-paid jobs in industry, rather than staying in frontline or instructor roles. One slide said: "The draw is so great from such a small pool we are approaching a critical mass point". But an RAF source said there was no "mass exodus";
• A commitment by the UK to train pilots from places like Qatar and Saudi Arabia as part of a deal to sell the country's Typhoon jets is absorbing already limited training space. This has made a number of RAF pilots wait longer to join the Operational Conversion Unit, which is the final stage of their training, a defence source said;
• Despite having 43 slots, only 11 trainee UK pilots are scheduled to go through the conversion stage of fast jet training to learn how to fly an F35 or a Typhoon this year.MORE ON ROYAL AIR FORCE

https://e3.365dm.com/22/05/192x108/skynews-hms-queen-elizabeth_5767738.jpg?20220511030031 (https://news.sky.com/story/uk-armed-forces-lack-battle-winning-capabilities-and-are-complacent-about-costs-says-stinging-assessment-12610295)UK armed forces lack 'battle-winning capabilities' and are 'complacent' about costs, says stinging assessment (https://news.sky.com/story/uk-armed-forces-lack-battle-winning-capabilities-and-are-complacent-about-costs-says-stinging-assessment-12610295)

https://e3.365dm.com/22/04/192x108/skynews-ukraine-russia-chernihiv_5732147.png?20220407185108 (https://news.sky.com/story/russias-next-attack-may-be-more-brutal-raf-chief-says-12584621)Russia's next attack may be 'more brutal', RAF chief says (https://news.sky.com/story/russias-next-attack-may-be-more-brutal-raf-chief-says-12584621)

https://e3.365dm.com/22/02/192x108/skynews-typhoon-fighter-jet_5660060.jpg?20220202124608 (https://news.sky.com/story/raf-typhoon-jets-escort-four-russian-bear-aircraft-out-of-uks-area-of-interest-12531063)RAF Typhoon jets escort four Russian Bear aircraft out of 'UK's area of interest' (https://news.sky.com/story/raf-typhoon-jets-escort-four-russian-bear-aircraft-out-of-uks-area-of-interest-12531063)


Related Topics:

Royal Air Force (https://news.sky.com/topic/royal-air-force-7512)

'The biggest f*** up in the RAF'

A serving officer with knowledge of the training pipeline said: "At the moment, it's the biggest f*** up in the RAF."

Asking to stay anonymous, they told Sky News: "To have a selection process that is second only to astronaut selection, so you're getting the cream of the cream, and then make them complete their flying training over a six-to-eight-year process, when it should only take two-to-three years, is absolutely mad, especially when it is taxpayers' money."

A former senior air force officer, also speaking anonymously, agreed.

He called the situation "a scandal… a crisis", saying it has been a chronic problem for almost 30 years that air chiefs have consistently tried and failed to fix.

But a second, serving, RAF source defended the situation and strongly denied there was a crisis.

He said this year was always going to be a "challenge" as the air force prepared to retire a number of aircraft and bring in new platforms as part of modernisation plans.
https://e3.365dm.com/22/02/768x432/skynews-ukraine-boryspil-aid_5667740.jpg?20220209113446Image:A C17 Globemaster III aircraft of the Royal Air Force, transporting a shipment of Britain's support package for UkraineInstructors forced to take to the skies

Russia's war in Ukraine added additional pressure, with the RAF called upon to provide more fast jets and crews to patrol the skies of NATO allies in the east of the alliance.

It meant on one occasion, instructors at the Operational Conversion Unit at RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire had to take time out to man the Quick Reaction Alert jets that scramble to protect UK airspace, impacting a couple of training courses that had to be rescheduled.

The source said a senior group of RAF officers meet three or four times a year to consider all training issues.

This was so "in the dynamic market and dynamic world of training - and all of these challenges of multiple aircraft having different things going on or off with them - that we do this effectively on a regular basis, not wait for the problem to arrive", the source said.

"We're trying to get upstream and manage people's lives and help them through their career."

An RAF spokesperson said: "Whilst we acknowledge there are challenges with the training pipeline, we are working across defence, with industry and our international partners to improve the training experience and results for our personnel, including recruiting more instructors and actively managing timeframes for training.

"We continue to have sufficient aircrew to meet our operational commitments."
https://e3.365dm.com/22/02/768x432/skynews-raf-akrotiri-fgr4-uk_5676125.jpg?20220217065927Image:A Royal Air Force Typhoon FGR4 at RAF AkrotiriLong waiting lists for trainees

The leaked documents offered a sense of the scale of the challenge.

Some 347 trainees - more than half of 596 personnel in the total flying training system, including army and navy aviators - are waiting for a slot on a training course or are on a "refresher" course. Students must refresh their skills when the delay to progress to the next phase in their training is so bad that they are no longer current in what they already know.

Waiting times for flying courses vary depending on the type of aircraft.

The memo said some 80 personnel will have to wait three-and-a-half years to gain multi-engine training, which is needed to operate transport aircraft such as the A400m and the C-17 and spy planes like the Rivet Joint and Poseidon submarine hunter. Separately, there is a wait of between two-to-three years to learn how to fly a Chinook helicopter.

The delays have left dozens of personnel - dubbed "holdies" because they are on hold for a training course - dotted around RAF bases, other military headquarters and even at the Main Building in the Ministry of Defence in London.

The RAF source said a lot of effort is being made to ensure those waiting are not wasting their time working a photocopier.
https://e3.365dm.com/22/02/768x432/skynews-fgr4-raf-raf-akrotiri_5676138.jpg?20220217070745Image:A Royal Air Force Typhoon FGR4 at RAF AkrotiriProblems 'date back to end of Cold War'

The source offered examples of some officers being sent on Russian or Arabic language courses and others learning how to be an air traffic controller. This "gives everybody professional qualifications that are wider than those ones they were expecting."

But the delays also mean the average age of a newly-qualified pilot across the RAF has risen to 29 from early-to-mid 20s, changing the demographics of the service.

This could have "significant implications for future professional development, reach and retention", one of the documents warned.

The defence sources said today's training woes can be traced back to the end of the Cold War, when successive governments sought to cut defence spending, cashing in on a so-called "peace dividend" and the false hope that Russia would no longer pose a threat.

The size of the RAF, army and Royal Navy, was repeatedly shrunk, including the number of pilots and warplanes, with frontline squadrons dropping to seven from around 30.

At the same time, plans were drawn up to privatise much of the military's flying training.
https://e3.365dm.com/22/02/768x432/skynews-typhoon-fgr4-raf-raf-akrotiri_5676139.jpg?20220217070824Image:A Royal Air Force Typhoon FGR4 at RAF AkrotiriIn about 2008, a joint venture called Ascent, comprising the US defence giant Lockheed Martin and its British counterpart Babcock, secured an initial 25-year contract to deliver what is known as the Military Flying Training System (MFTS).

It is required to train a set number of recruits in different specialisms, including fast jets, multi-engines - such as spy planes and transport aircraft - and helicopters.

But the defence sources said the RAF - under Treasury pressure - kept changing its mind about the size of the training pipeline following a 2010 defence review that imposed further, painful cuts across the armed forces and a 2015 review that adjusted the levels slightly.

Sky News understands that some officers around that time favoured paying a bit more to keep some spare training capacity to give the RAF the ability to surge in new pilots should a future government think the air force had been cut too deeply.

It would also create resilience to absorb the impact of any glitches with training courses.

When not required, the extra training slots could be filled by foreign crew as part of multi-billion-pound deals to sell British-made Typhoon jets to international partners - a win-win.

However, the defence sources said that others within the RAF disagreed, instead prioritising the Treasury-led need to reduce spending and opting for a contract to train the minimal viable number of pilots.

They won the argument but appear to have created a system that is struggling to deliver the pilots needed in peacetime, let alone were the UK again to go to war.

"The system has been pared back to only work if everything turns out perfectly," the senior, former RAF officer said. "It is a system that only works if you keep throwing sixes."

[RAFEngO74to09]

Twitter version:

"EXCLUSIVE: The UK's ability to train fast jet pilots is in crisis because of faulty aircraft, a need for more instructors and an influx of foreign students filling up the course, leaked @RoyalAirForce (https://twitter.com/RoyalAirForce) documents suggest."

"Recruits are spending months - sometimes years - effectively flying desks instead of warplanes as they wait for training slots to open."

"The delays could hamper the future availability of crews to operate frontline Typhoon and F35 squadrons at a time of growing threats from Russia and China and with a war raging in Europe, defence sources said."

"Pilots earmarked to train on other aircraft, such as military transport planes and helicopters, are also suffering. The problems are impacting @RoyalNavy (https://twitter.com/RoyalNavy) & @BritishArmy (https://twitter.com/BritishArmy) aviators too."

"The backlog is so grave, the RAF is considering asking up to 30 of its recruits to quit voluntarily, one internal note said. It warned of a "reputational risk" if air chiefs took such a step. There is no suggestion of any forced redundancies."

"A @RoyalAirForce (https://twitter.com/RoyalAirForce) spokesperson said: "Whilst we acknowledge there are challenges with the training pipeline, we are working across defence, with industry and our international partners to improve the training experience and results for our personnel..."

"..., including recruiting more instructors and actively managing timeframes for training. "We continue to have sufficient aircrew to meet our operational commitments."

(2) Deborah Haynes on Twitter: "The backlog is so grave, the RAF is considering asking up to 30 of its recruits to quit voluntarily, one internal note said. It warned of a "reputational risk" if air chiefs took such a step. There is no suggestion of any forced redundancies. 5/" / Twitter

[Baldeep Inminj]

I hope CANADA is watching this - they are about to implement a similar system with their Future Aircrew Training (FAcT) Contract. The experience of the UK should show them what happens when you let Babcock (UKMFTS Provider Ascent is a 50/50 JV between babcock and LM) anywhere near your Training System. They will bid low, promise the world and then fail to deliver...but they don't care because they have the contract. This is how they operate - CANADA has been warned.

https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/air/snac-nfps/ffpn-fact-eng.html

[Stratnumberone]

Who needs pilots when everyone is an aviator?

#takingcareoftheimportantstuff

[Alex Whittingham]

the RAF is considering asking up to 30 of its recruits to quit voluntarily this is the strangest part ... short of front line pilots .... huge backlogs .. some numpty's idea of a solution is to reduce the backlog by asking pilots in training to quit. What have we come to? Send them to Canada on a 21st century Empire Training Scheme for heaven's sake!.

[BEagle]

"Whilst we acknowledge there are challenges with the training pipeline, we are working across defence, with industry and our international partners to improve the training experience and results for our personnel..."

Such typical wanquewords! "challenges"....."training experience"....

"We're trying to get upstream and manage people's lives and help them through their career."

Oh really?

".....some 80 personnel will have to wait three-and-a-half years to gain multi-engine training, which is needed to operate transport aircraft such as the A400m and the C-17.

As ye sow, so shall ye reap!

[oldmansquipper]

Todays ‘no **** Sherlock’ post.🤔

meanwhile back at the Beeb, more important stuff is afoot….

https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/reality-tv/a40814722/strictly-come-dancing-richie-anderson-same-sex-pairing/

I despair.

[NutLoose]

Surely a fast jet pilot needs to be, how do I put it, of a certain age group to be effective reaction wise etc, the longer you kick the can down the road means those awaiting training while holding are reducing their active fast jet service period.

[KrisKringle]

There's only so many times you can tell the RAF's 'nice but dim' leadership, such as that wally running around naked in his garden to upset his neighbours, whilst their middle management tell these buffoons what they want to hear. Many of these middle management senior officers then suspiciously left the service to work for the contractor's they were managing. The list is long. All predictable over a decade ago...and then they killed 100 Sqdn, which was the golden goose of the RAF, delivering decent support for the MOD frontline and, making up the shortfall, first-rate RAF fast jet pilot training.

[Trumpet trousers]

Step forward "Sir' Spoons, because this was undoubtedly on 'your watch'.... you had the opportunity to do the right thing, but chose personal advancement and glorification instead. I hope you can sleep comfortably at night. #muppet

[trim it out]

"A selection process that is second only to astronaut selection"

:D

[POBJOY]

Oh dear what a mess (but not a surprise) . This ongoing 'gamekeeper turned poachers' scenario is endemic in the realms of Government circles and well established in all levels of
(early retirement work for the contractors plan). However all is not lost, as there is a flourishing market/business in two seat Spitfires already busy flying/checking out punters with ease, and no doubt could be expanded to fill the gap for the RAF. With a seemingly increasing amount of unaffordable and under resourced 'Jets' it is time to get down to basics and put a MK1 eyeball Pilot back in a proven multirole machine that has the added advantage of giving a 'wellness' factor when seen by the public. It could also be self-funding, as the 'brand' has great marketing advantages in attracting finance, and volunteers. Even better the whole operation could be given over to the LAA with groups building their own machines and sorting out a Merlin replacement. There we are, just needed some 'out of box thinking' and reinstating that wonderful very basic Flying Training organisation that the ATC ran for decades with the fretwork fighters !!!!. Oh by the way Astronaut ability not a requirement, just your parents permission to fly.

[NutLoose]

Weird isn’t it, the world is turning to poo, every man and his dog are in an arms race to re-equip and expand their Military and then there is the U.K.
Like a little chihuahua sitting behind the garden fence barking at the world but secretly hoping no one barks back..

[sangiovese.]

Here’s a bright idea going back gosh knows how long. Stop penny pinching. MFTS is the debacle that came from destroying a system that worked. Yes it needed to evolve to cope with changing technology. But all they thought about was cost and LM et al saw profit

[Timelord]

And the next CAS will no doubt be the unnamed senior officer who said everything is great! I honestly think that the only solution now is to do what other NATO nations have done and give up on our own flying training and get it all done in the US.

[The B Word]

All is as predicted and as discussed ad nauseam in a previous thread here: https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/600630-uk-mfts-off-rails.html

However, this is now so much more than UK MFTS which, following many compromises and the trimming back of the original planned flying hours, is now capable of delivering students in the numbers, and at the pace, that the OCUs can take. But there now lies the problem. The Integrated Review (IR) and the subsequent Command Paper 21 (CP21) were a total disaster for the RAF with the loss of C130J some 10 years early, the premature removal of E3D (and subsequent sale to Chile), the cancellation of Puma (only to be reinstated with the loss of Bell 212/412 in Brunei and Cyprus), the replacement of BAe 146 with Falcon 900 (but only with 50% military crews to start with), the reduced purchase of Protector numbers (>20 in SDSR15) and the reduction of Wedgetail from 5 airframes to 3.Then the Army-centric JHC (headed by a RAF 2-star!) launched a torpedo at the CH47 fleet by ceasing the planned growth in crew numbers by reducing the total required by 25%; this whilst the training pipeline was primed to deliver the enhancements. Add to that COVID where fewer have left the Service, roughly 100 have rejoined from the failing airlines and some have rescinded their ETs. Then you have this current mess - no places on OCUs for the bow-wave of tri-Service aircrew coming through a 3 year training pipeline (less any holds/holdovers) and then going into an up to 2 year holding pattern for their OCUs.

So this time, it isn’t the recalcitrant UK MFTS’s fault, but a total screw up in MOD for the IR and subsequent CP21 that failed to realise that flying training takes at least 3 years to cope with a change in numbers (really 5 years minimum to make changes to aircrew numbers). Those graduating right now were recruited for the demands set by SDSR15, and so cancelling/slashing aircraft types instantly sees students going into holds yet again for 2 years with reduced throughput/recruiting. So this is a Government lead problem, overseen by MOD and enacted by the senior leadership of the Services (again, there are similar problems in the FAA and the AAC set off by equally dumb decisions).

On that subject, is it any wonder that this has got so out of hand when you have had Wiggy-the-woke (if you remember specially appointed by that idiot Williamson who told “Russia to shut up and go away” (that worked didn’t it!)) and his naked gardening friend Andy-Pandy at the helm this past few years ably assisted by the Girl Blunder (aka The Dentist - who hasn’t even done a full Initial Officer Training Course!) and their sycophantic following all crowing about Stonewall, D&I numbers/quotas , Aviators, Air Specialists, E-scooters, Space, amusing uniform updates, the crazy new operating models and the smoke and mirrors of ASTRA - all whilst the real Rome is burning with no hot water, poor food, mouldy accommodation, removal of proper admin/HR support, failing training pipelines, below inflation pay rises, failures in the basics of supply (the latest being no hats for those graduating Halton and Cranwell - I jest not!) and generally a very unhappy bunch of campers working for the Services. No wonder Uncle Gerry has been so grumpy these past few years, trying to keep that lot in check. If you wanted to write a parody about senior leadership right now then the characters are all in place :ugh:

The nonsense and fake hysteria of the vanity project ‘ASTRA’ and its ‘Next Gen Air Force’ needs to ramp down immediately. A new regime of operators needs to take the reigns at the top (the newly appointed DCOM Cap & AMP is a beacon of hope) and they need to get after the real stuff that affects people on a day-to-day basis, fix the ‘death by a 1,000 cuts’ (which the USAF call ‘queep’) and get after restoring and maintaining operational capability. If they don’t there will not be a Next Gen Air Force to worry about… or maybe that was the plan all along? :cool:

[fdr]

The RAF could always incorporate an active reserve to put the needed crew in the right place. The guys that have left before the change of equipment and tactics can be effective in other areas of operations, guys less than about 10 years off the fleet would be able to brush up skills within a short period. Asking students on course to resign is asinine, the billy goats that engineered this shambles should be marched off the edge of the cliff instead. The students could however be relocated to other commonwealth forces that have short falls in crewing. Going back is not that hard, some of the words have changed, but the sky remains the same.

[Timelord]

B Word- Best summary that I have seen. Your penultimate paragraph needs sending to every MP and senior officer. BZ.

[teeteringhead]

As the words of the song "Glory Flying Regulations" had it:

The Force is shot to Hell.........

[Jobza Guddun]

B Word, you have absolutely nailed it. I found myself continually nodding as I read your post.

I'm sad that our Air Force has been reduced to this, and even sadder that I don't have enough time left to take part in any recovery programme. Perhaps misplaced, but I have high hopes the next CAS can start reversing the failings, including a review of all training delivery, not just MFTS - Engineering is also heading down the toilet.

[Two's in]

B Word - Very accurate precis. As much as we like to blame companies like Babcock and Lockheed, they can't cause the damage that is occurring without the facilitation and access given to them by Senior Officers and incompetent procurement types. Contractors will always be in it for the money, but the contract terms and operating environment are set by the senior leadership. Awarding a 25 year training contract with zero consideration for any changes in the major equipments, strategic priorities and what actual customers of the system might need was always going to end in tears. And so it has.


/ "A selection process that is second only to astronaut selection"

/ Is that the going to moon astronauts, or the driving halfway across America wearing adult diapers to murder your love rival astronauts? Asking for a friend.

[pr00ne]

To misquote Admiral Beatty at Jutland:

” There seems to be something wrong with our bloody Very Senior Officers today.”


No good blaming contractors who “just want to make money.” In the capitalist system that IS the point of contractors.

And these same contractors do the same in contracted and privatised military training systems for other countries across the globe from Australia to the USA without them being the crippling disaster that MFTS is.

The difference is the VSO’s…

[8674planes]

Response from the RAF's social media's

Our people are our greatest asset and we’re committed to ensuring we attract and retain the best and brightest talent to meet current and future threats. Whilst we acknowledge there are challenges with the training pipeline, we are working across defence, with industry and our international partners to improve the training experience and results for our personnel, including recruiting more instructors and actively managing timeframes for training. We continue to have sufficient aircrew to meet our operational commitments.

[skua]

I hope CANADA is watching this - they are about to implement a similar system with their Future Aircrew Training (FAcT) Contract. The experience of the UK should show them what happens when you let Babcock (UKMFTS Provider Ascent is a 50/50 JV between babcock and LM) anywhere near your Training System. They will bid low, promise the world and then fail to deliver...but they don't care because they have the contract. This is how they operate - CANADA has been warned.
Babcock - the clue is in the name.
I am just surprised it has taken a relatively switched on Defence Correspondent such as Deborah H so long to latch onto this clusterf**k. Whilst the FJ programme puts the omni into omni shambles, I hope the current airing covers the gamut of MFTS.

[skua]

B Word- Best summary that I have seen. Your penultimate paragraph needs sending to every MP and senior officer. BZ.

I sent a letter to my MP, known around our parts as Desperate Dan, 18 months ago, alerting him to this impending disaster. I got no reply.

A central part of our problems is that few MPs (with some very notable exceptions) care a jot about defence.

[Bill Macgillivray]

B-word, summed up very succintly, I am afraid! How have we got to this state (answer not required!). I am well out of things but still have an interest! Progress is essential to any organisation, military or civilian, and I am more than willing to accept that I am way past any understanding of all the technical facets of a modern air force. However, I am still "with it" enough to query how the heirarchy of today's Royal Air Force are advised, make decisions, and are still able to screw it up!!

Bill

[typerated]

RNZAF has an operaional force of
5 C 130s
6 P 3s (retired two)
2 757s
8 NH90s

To train for this force it has a fleet of 11 T 6 Texans

Interesting to compare to RAF/Babcocks who fly 14 Texans.

[Parson]

Am no expert, and am sure there is a ‘master plan’ that worked it all out, but the numbers of training aircraft being purchased for MFTS always seemed a bit low to me.

[etudiant]

Am no expert, and am sure there is a ‘master plan’ that worked it all out, but the numbers of training aircraft being purchased for MFTS always seemed a bit low to me.

Perhaps the training budget was set before the force level adjustments were made public?

[LateArmLive]

The RAF could always incorporate an active reserve to put the needed crew in the right place. The guys that have left before the change of equipment and tactics can be effective in other areas of operations, guys less than about 10 years off the fleet would be able to brush up skills within a short period. Asking students on course to resign is asinine, the billy goats that engineered this shambles should be marched off the edge of the cliff instead. The students could however be relocated to other commonwealth forces that have short falls in crewing. Going back is not that hard, some of the words have changed, but the sky remains the same.

The guys and girls that left did so for a reason. Why would they come back to this shambles (with a paycut in all probability) again?

[Asturias56]

For years the UK talks about Reserves etc etc but they are never funded properly and there is no constituency in the full-time services or the MoD that supports the ideas really. You need POLITICAL backing to force the issue - in the US this is what keeps the National Guard units trained and equipped to a serious level. The main US services would just love to get their hands on the money but they can't

[Lima Juliet]

National Guards are funded by the individual states as well as the main federal funds too. Can you imagine North Kesteven Council funding a Reserve Typhoon Squadron? :}

[Bob Viking]

I don’t know if you’ve ever spent much time with Guard units but whilst I agree they are equipped to a serious level I would still take some convincing that they are trained to a serious level.

BV

[pr00ne]

RNZAF has an operaional force of
5 C 130s
6 P 3s (retired two)
2 757s
8 NH90s

To train for this force it has a fleet of 11 T 6 Texans

Interesting to compare to RAF/Babcocks who fly 14 Texans.

Yeah, but those 11Texan’s ARE its “fast jet” fleet!

[BEagle]

More from Sky News: https://news.sky.com/story/fixing-chronic-problems-with-flying-training-was-raf-chiefs-only-priority-and-could-take-years-to-resolve-12667608

How can such an omnishambles recruit ANY new pilots if they can't even train the ones they already have?

[ZH875]

But ACM Wigston has successfully allowed beards and got rid of LAC/SAC so will consider his tenure a success. Who needs pilots when you have an overstretched Woke air force

[Lima Juliet]

I don’t know if you’ve ever spent much time with Guard units but whilst I agree they are equipped to a serious level I would still take some convincing that they are trained to a serious level.

BV

I flew on the same roulement for OSW with the 188FW AANG F16CJ who were flying SEAD. I could not have hoped for a more professional or disciplined unit. They certainly kept the SAM sites tied down whilst we provided BARCAP near Baghdad. A few Magnum calls too during our VUL.

So, I disagree BV, with your comment on their training and proficiency level. But that is the thing here, if the RAF wanted a Reserve FJ capability they would need to generate aircraft over the weekend and evenings when Reserves might fly. Otherwise, they take the precious little flying that the Regulars get. So really, without the significant training budget that the ANG attract, then it really is a non-starter for the RAF. They would need more engineers, spares, air traffic, fighter controllers, training adversaries, firefighters, sim staff, mess staff, etc… the support tail is huge, all that normally stand down outside normal working hours.

[Bob Viking]

Fair enough. I’m happy to be proven wrong. But the unit I spent time with on exercise recently might be the yin to your yang.

BV

[RAFEngO74to09]

More from Deborah Haynes on Twitter:

NEW: Defence Secretary @BWallaceMP (https://twitter.com/BWallaceMP) instructed the head of the @RoyalAirForce (https://twitter.com/RoyalAirForce) to fix chronic problems with flying training for new pilots as "his only priority", a defence source has said. That was more than 2.5yrs ago. The system is still in “crisis”.

[Anyone following him on Twitter knows how much time Wokeston wastes on complete nonsense / virtue signalling like attending obscure ethnic minority ceremonies, rank structure renamimg (when "airman" is perfectly acceptable in the USAF for males, females and others) and commenting endlessly on Diversity, Inclusion, Whole Force, Next Gen RAF etc]

"On Friday,@SkyNews (https://twitter.com/SkyNews) revealed an "emerging" issue with the Hawk aircraft used by fast jet trainees & concerns about a "damaging drain" of qualified pilots quitting the RAF for better-paid jobs in industry rather than staying on to fly on operations and instruct new recruits."

"The impact of the various challenges means dozens of recruits are stuck in limbo waiting for months - sometimes years - for training slots to open up on fast jet courses as well as those earmarked to fly military transport, spy planes and helicopters."

"The ongoing "shambles" raise difficult questions for @ChiefofAirStaff (https://twitter.com/ChiefofAirStaff) Sir Mike Wigston and other senior RAF leaders as threats from Russia and China rise, according to defence sources. @RoyalNavy (https://twitter.com/RoyalNavy) and @BritishArmy (https://twitter.com/BritishArmy) trainee aviators are also affected by the situation."

"Leaked documents show how a rise in operational demand hits RAF's ability to train fast jet recruits because of insufficient instructors. 1 file said there’d been a 65% drop in demand for trainees to learn how to fly Typhoon this year due "predominately to operational tempo"."

Deborah Haynes on Twitter: "NEW: Defence Secretary @BWallaceMP instructed the head of the @RoyalAirForce to fix chronic problems with flying training for new pilots as "his only priority", a defence source has said. That was more than 2.5yrs ago. The system is still in “crisis”. 1/ https://t.co/Oz6OO09hBK" / Twitter

[RAFEngO74to09]

The UK ought to consider buying slots on the Euro-NATO Joint Jet Pilot Training Program (ENJJPT) to do all its training.

https://www.sheppard.af.mil/Library/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/367537/euro-nato-joint-jet-pilot-training-program-enjjpt/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN1XHTP7IY4

[PPRuNeUser0211]

The UK ought to consider buying slots on the Euro-NATO Joint Jet Pilot Training Program (ENJJPT)

https://www.sheppard.af.mil/Library/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/367537/euro-nato-joint-jet-pilot-training-program-enjjpt/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN1XHTP7IY4

They already do.....

[vascodegama]

Not enough obviously!

[chopper2004]

RNZAF has an operaional force of
5 C 130s
6 P 3s (retired two)
2 757s
8 NH90s

To train for this force it has a fleet of 11 T 6 Texans

Interesting to compare to RAF/Babcocks who fly 14 Texans.

According to the NZDF website for the T-6

https://www.nzdf.mil.nz/nzdf/our-equipment/aircraft/t-6c-texan-ii/

'Pilot Training aims to deliver 15–20 qualified pilots and 8–10 flying instructors annually.' so how many do we produce at mo?

4 x Raytheon Beech King Air 350, 5 x Leonardo AW109E Power LUH , I did see their first one at Farnborough Air Show 2010 (my pic below)

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x540/35238_458564506489_4927143_n_30824ddf8474f97050bf12459bed44e ef04cbd53.jpg
And last week their 109 fleet achieved 10,000 flying hours since service entry and not only they used for basic RW training they also can be tasked for medevac, disaster management and other assistantce to civilian authorities.

cheers

[Ewan Whosearmy]

I don’t know if you’ve ever spent much time with Guard units but whilst I agree they are equipped to a serious level I would still take some convincing that they are trained to a serious level.

BV

There are 113 USAF Air National Guards squadrons operating today. Is your sample size of one really large enough for you to "take some convincing that they are trained to a serious level"?

[[email protected]]

Shock Horror - persistent cost cutting and 'efficiency' measures reduce manpower, morale and capability - who could have seen that coming????

It would seem even the Red Arrows have been hollowed out in terms of resources judging by the damning forensic analysis in David Hill's excellent new book 'A Noble Anger'.

Those who have occupied the most senior levels in the RAF for the last 20 years should hang their heads in shame.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Those who have occupied the most senior levels in the RAF for the last 20 years should hang their heads in shame.

What performance metrics or key performance indicators has their performance been reviewed against? Who does their performance reviews?

[[email protected]]

What performance metrics or key performance indicators has their performance been reviewed against? Who does their performance reviews? Read the book and then explain how an aircraft with an inconsistent document set, a history of crashes following stalls and recurring recommendations from BOI/SI not embodied or cancelled is airworthy. Then look at who signs this stuff off.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Here’s a bright idea going back gosh knows how long. Stop penny pinching. MFTS is the debacle that came from destroying a system that worked.

👏 Spot on. It’s time to get rid of these PFI-esque contracts once and for all.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Read the book and then explain how an aircraft with an inconsistent document set, a history of crashes following stalls and recurring recommendations from BOI/SI not embodied or cancelled is airworthy. Then look at who signs this stuff off.

My point was that while you take aim at the employees, the problem here is the employer and the system that keeps these people employed. So, while "Wiggy-the-Woke" (to quote someone else here) continues to preside over an enormous cluster**** and focuses on things that are of no real importance to operational capability, it is the system that keeps him employed that has to be changed.

[Bob Viking]

You are, of course, completely correct. Please accept my apologies.

My glibness was over the top. Also it was intended as a bit of a dig at a self-confessed civilian who probably has no actual experience of guard units either way.

BV

[[email protected]]

My point was that while you take aim at the employees, the problem here is the employer and the system that keeps these people employed. So, while "Wiggy-the-Woke" (to quote someone else here) continues to preside over an enormous cluster**** and focuses on things that are of no real importance to operational capability, it is the system that keeps him employed that has to be changed. Correct but those VSOs are an integral part of that system, they promote people in their own image and the lies required to protect upwards and blame downwards are perpetuated.

[vortexadminman]

Yeah, but those 11Texan’s ARE its “fast jet” fleet!


Of course not as you well know NZ does not have a FJ fleet, hasn't had one for some years now. It had A4 s ( all super pointy fast jet drivers considered not a fast jet anyway as they do with Harriers )but great ground attack machine which it was bought to do, plus anti shipping etc. I think his/her point is valid that with a working system you don't need numbers to provide a working training system you just need a working training system !

[GeeRam]

Correct but those VSOs are an integral part of that system, they promote people in their own image and the lies required to protect upwards and blame downwards are perpetuated.

Presume though, this was all part of the grand Govt plan of changing the running the armed forces to be just like the civilian corporate world where fiddling while Rome burns is an art form among the upper echelons of pretty much every major large corporate organisation I've had the displeasure of working in during the last 15+ years.

[[email protected]]

Presume though, this was all part of the grand Govt plan of changing the running the armed forces to be just like the civilian corporate world where fiddling while Rome burns is an art form among the upper echelons of pretty much every major large corporate organisation I've had the displeasure of working in during the last 15+ years. yes but all those VSOs wait until their knighthoods and pensions are secure before speaking out once they have retired.

[sangiovese.]

Always amazes me to look a the ascent jobs website and see the turnover of roles. Obviously well paid highly motivated

[NutLoose]

The latest advert for the RAF says all jobs are open to apply for, who wants to be CAS?

[Toadstool]

The latest advert for the RAF says all jobs are open to apply for, who wants to be CAS?

Going by the amount of time it takes to train a FJ pilot, CAS will be going to a branch that allows time for promotion to that rank.

[Runaway Gun]

Boris Johnson has enough experience now…

[Davef68]

I'm assuming we don't send anyone to Moose Jaw anymore? Is MFTS a single-source contract?

[PPRuNeUser0211]

I'm assuming we don't send anyone to Moose Jaw anymore? Is MFTS a single-source contract?
First one: I believe currently correct, though we do have studes(and an instructor iirc) on the ENJJPTS programme in the states. I believe we also sent some studes to the "Pilot Training Next" project as an experiment, but I think that was a one off in the name of science.

MFTS contract - it was competed but now flying training is provided by the incumbent (with the exception of the multi engine crews that went civvy recently, and the ENJJPTS studies).

[JW411]

I am astonished to read that it takes from 6 - 8 years to complete flying training nowadays. I've just had a look in my logbook and I see that it took me almost exactly 2 years and 4 months from taking the Queen's shilling on 08.08.60 to arriving on my first squadron on 06.12.62. What a cock-up!

[Bob Viking]

Not that I disagree with you that 6-8 years is a ludicrous timeframe, but may I please ask what aircraft type you qualified on in 1962? Also could you please give us an idea of what flying training entailed back then?

BV

[typerated]

Not that I disagree with you that 6-8 years is a ludicrous timeframe, but may I please ask what aircraft type you qualified on in 1962? Also could you please give us an idea of what flying training entailed back then?

BV
If students didn't have holds and just went straight from course to course approx how long would it take to fast jet OCU?

[Lima Juliet]

If students didn't have holds and just went straight from course to course approx how long would it take to fast jet OCU?

Between 24 week Modular IOT and a FJ OCU is about 24-26 months (that includes groundschool, EFT, FJ Lead In, BFT and AJT - Prefect, Texan and Hawk). The FJ OCU might take another 9 months or so and then a combat ready work up another 6-12 months. So all in around 4 years with no breaks. Add in a year there, a month or 2 there and 2 years here, and then you get the 7 years in the flying training pipeline numbers being quoted.

[Lordflasheart]

Bob V - It was 3 to 6 months induction training (learning how to march and say 'Sir' which most of us already knew) followed by six months basic and similar advanced flying training, followed by OCU and front line appointment, a little over two years from joining.

I think JW411 qualified on multis (Varsity) followed by Argosy OCU in whatever time scale he says, and was probably a Captain shortly after.

I was flying off a Carrier in the Far East about 22 months after I joined. Not saying I knew much about what was going on, and some of us didn't last long. Eighteen months (late 1962) later we thought we might be asked to use our nuke capability for the Cuba Missile Crisis - QV https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/648136-order-day-2nd-august-1962-60-years-ago-today.html

Three 'O' levels got us a job then. I realise you are expected to be a bit cleverer and better qualified now, but there was some urgency (and wonderful job satisfaction) in those days.

What do you think MoD is offering (money) to those 'volunteers' they are currently seeking - for all their waste of time when they could have been getting some useful qualification - instead of sitting on their a***es doing holdovers ?

Have you any idea what they paid the last lot of RAF surplus trainee pilots ? The ones they compulsorily chopped a few years back - Some of them were within spitting distance of their Wings.

There's plenty of keen young lads, but the burning problem is - If they can't train them in a decent time scale and at the other end, they can't retain them, then the RAF is doomed to fail. There won't be any one left apart from a few VSOs waiting to retire and join ASCENT and those who are still actively supporting the abandonment of Airworthiness.

Have you yet read 'A Noble Anger - The Manslaughter of Corporal Jonathan Bayliss' by David Hill ? It's all part of the same rotten 'nobody cares, it's not my problem' problem.

Cheers, LFH

[Thud_and_Blunder]

I know this is a buoy that has been rounded in another thread recently, but:
but may I please ask what aircraft type you qualified on in 1962? Also could you please give us an idea of what flying training entailed back then?
Moving on 14 years, OCdt Blunder started OCTU at Henlow in June 76 (6-day and 8-day camps moving pinepoles around heatwave'd, drought-struck STANTA and SPTA), September 76 did the IAM preliminary then on to Basic on JP3A at Linton, Jul 77 to 2FTS for the Whirlwind. A 2-week hold on 18 at Gutersloh while the 'new' Wessex 5 course was introduced, then on to the OCU in Feb 78 and the first Sqn in July of that year. Two years one month, and didn't get to Fg Off until after I'd passed C Cat (later called CR) a few months further on.

I sometimes wonder if the recently-ex-Bucc studes we met at N Luffenham in Sep 76 included young BEagle...

[JW411]

Bob Viking:
It went something like this:
08.08.60 Arrived at No.1 ITS South Cerney for commissioning course.
26.11.60 Passed out as an APO. (Given my scroll by Air Commodore The Duke of Hamilton (first man over Everest). His son Angus was on the same course).
Posted to No.6 FTS Ternhill and after 1 week's leave did my first flight in a Piston Provost (wonderful aeroplane).
21.12.60 Exercise 3 Provost XF561.
21.07.61 Last flight in Provost, WV607. 120 hours in Piston Provost. Posted to No.4 FTS to fly 40 hours in DH Vampire T.11 (For "turbine experience").
21.09.61 First Vampire flight XE852. (It was like a flying club).
15.12.61 Last flight in Vampire WZ512.
22.01.62 Start of multi-training. Varsity WJ912.
30.03.62 No.4 FTS moved to Oakington to become No.5 FTS.
22.06.62 Awarded "wings". Last flight in Varsity WJ912 06.06.62.
So, in ball park terms, it was Provost 120 hours/Vampire 40 hours/Varsity 80 hours before getting your wings.
03.07.62 After about 10 days leave, arrived at No.242 OCU at Thorney Island to complete the Transport Command ground school (which went on forever).
15.08.62 Arrived at 242 (Argosy) OCU at Benson to complete the Argosy (which was a new aircraft) course.
30.10.62 After a ground school that also seemed to go on for ever, I finally got airborne in Argosy XN848 this day. We had a lot snow at Benson around Christmas 62/63 and the airfield was closed for 6 weeks.so I didn't get to my first Squadron until:
06.12.62 2 years and 4 months from the start, I arrived on No.267 Squadron.

I hope that this is of interest. I then spent 10 years on the Argosy (I became a trainer in 1966). Then 6 years on the Belfast. Two years on the BN2. Went to Laker on the DC-10 and completed 53 years of productive flying.

I sure as hell could not even contemplate sitting on my arse for 8 years. Have you any idea what a negative effect that would have on your pension planning?

[RAFEngO74to09]

More from Deborah Haynes:

"EXCLUSIVE: The defence secretary has ordered an internal inspection of the UK's military flying training after @SkyNews revealed the system to generate @RoyalAirForce pilots is in crisis. The move is a blow for @ChiefofAirStaff , a source said."

"It can also be revealed that the trainee pilots impacted by massive delays in the flying training pipeline have effectively been warned a leak of documents that shed light on their predicament might even worsen their situation rather than improve it."

"A message, which has since been seen by @SkyNews, was distributed widely throughout the RAF, warning against leaking information to the media."

"The author of the official-sounding note said they suspected Air Chief Marshal Sir Mike Wigston and the rest of the senior RAF leadership "are in a total tailspin about this"."

"They will now be less likely to view the student cohort's predicament favourably, too."

"Would you, in their position. The military is all about trust, if you betray that knowingly by leaking reams of official info… then you can expect that betrayal will have consequences."

(1) Deborah Haynes on Twitter: "EXCLUSIVE: The defence secretary has ordered an internal inspection of the UK's military flying training after @SkyNews revealed the system to generate @RoyalAirForce pilots is in crisis. The move is a blow for @ChiefofAirStaff, a source said. 1/ https://t.co/aIxRlA9FKa" / Twitter

[Timelord]

More from

"Would you, in their position. The military is all about trust, if you betray that knowingly by leaking reams of official info… then you can expect that betrayal will have consequences."

(1) Deborah Haynes on Twitter: "EXCLUSIVE: The defence secretary has ordered an internal inspection of the UK's military flying training after @SkyNews revealed the system to generate @RoyalAirForce pilots is in crisis. The move is a blow for @ChiefofAirStaff, a source said. 1/ https://t.co/aIxRlA9FKa" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/haynesdeborah/status/1557839741772603392)

Typically demands for upward loyalty without any sign of reciprocation.

[Wrathmonk]

Fiddling while Rome burns…..

[NutLoose]

I know this is a buoy that has been rounded in another thread recently, but:

Moving on 14 years, OCdt Blunder started OCTU at Henlow in June 76 (6-day and 8-day camps moving pinepoles around heatwave'd, drought-struck STANTA and SPTA), September 76
While you were having fun there, I was at St Athan on my mechs course and up in the Brecon Beacons beating out the fires that were raging across them at the time... little grass fire, beat it... shower of sparks, lots of little grass fires beat it... even more showers of sparks and more little grass fires... revert to peeing on it.

[Darkmouse]

"Have you any idea what they paid the last lot of RAF surplus trainee pilots ? The ones they compulsorily chopped a few years back - Some of them were within spitting distance of their Wings."

Roughly £21k for those with/within spitting distance of wings. If one had wings, that just about paid for a CPL/MEIR course outright.

And then the RAF realised they were short of pilots 🤣.

[oldmansquipper]

Guys, guys…you are being soooooooo unfair on CAS!

Don’t forget, he (if I’m allowed to be gender specific here) has had so much to do, recently. E.g. Approving the new starfleet burgerflipping uniforms, placating the PC brigade, revising inclusivity policies, fighting off vexatious claims of white (if I’m aloud to use that word here) washing on recent SI reports and making sure safety recommendations are not implemented.

Is it any wonder ‘he’ missed the clusterfcuk that UKMFTS has allegedly become. Good job he has an eye on Ukraine and Taiwan.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Maybe we can do a deal with Rwanda to train our pilots ;-)

[Baldeep Inminj]

More from Deborah Haynes:

"EXCLUSIVE: The defence secretary has ordered an internal inspection of the UK's military flying training after @SkyNews revealed the system to generate @RoyalAirForce pilots is in crisis. The move is a blow for @ChiefofAirStaff , a source said."

"It can also be revealed that the trainee pilots impacted by massive delays in the flying training pipeline have effectively been warned a leak of documents that shed light on their predicament might even worsen their situation rather than improve it."

"A message, which has since been seen by @SkyNews, was distributed widely throughout the RAF, warning against leaking information to the media."

"The author of the official-sounding note said they suspected Air Chief Marshal Sir Mike Wigston and the rest of the senior RAF leadership "are in a total tailspin about this"."

"They will now be less likely to view the student cohort's predicament favourably, too."

"Would you, in their position. The military is all about trust, if you betray that knowingly by leaking reams of official info… then you can expect that betrayal will have consequences."

(1) Deborah Haynes on Twitter: "EXCLUSIVE: The defence secretary has ordered an internal inspection of the UK's military flying training after @SkyNews revealed the system to generate @RoyalAirForce pilots is in crisis. The move is a blow for @ChiefofAirStaff, a source said. 1/ https://t.co/aIxRlA9FKa" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/haynesdeborah/status/1557839741772603392)

An INTERNAL inspection FFS!!! So the same psychophantic cretins who designed and implemented this insanely stupid system are the the ones who will look into it! It was blindingly obvious to every Flt Lt QHI/QFI I knew that Ascents plans were doomed to failure and we pratically begged the heirarchy to listen to us, but they all 'knew better'.

Every VSO who was involved with MFTS should lose their pension as penance for presiding over this utterly predictable (because we predicted it!) farce. It will take a generation to undo the damage that MFTS has inflicted on the Services - good job there is not much conflict looming on the horizon...

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Baldeep,

VSOs falling on their swords after execrable decisions? After the example set by an MRAF et al with the Mull debacle? Another job that will take a generation to fix; another bunch of 'Lord'ships and senior positions in industry will be seen before any of that happens.

[Dunhovrin]

…the same psychophantic cretins....

Great word. Presumably it means someone who will stop at nothing in their quest to crawl up the Boss’s arse! The last one I knew like that came a-cropper some years later after streaking in front of the neighbours…

[MPN11]

There ws a gentleman of my acquaintance ...
63 to Cranwell
66 July ... graduated
68 March ... Hunter pilot on 20 Sqn at Tengah.

So under 2 years from graduating from Cranwell. He done good!

https://www.rafweb.org/Biographies/Squire_PT.htm

[Darkmouse]

To put things in perspective - it wasn't that long ago (but before MFTS, obvs), that 65 hours of EFT took 3-4 months, weather dependent, BFJTS took 10 and Valley took just over a year. There is absolutely no reason why flying training shouldn't be relatively quick.

But then you get some idiots with MBE's, and an eye on their own future involved, and the oldest and most respected flying training training system in the world gets obliterated. The basics don't change, despite the the technology changing - some things are easier, many things are more complex, but the sky is still an fascinating and deadly place to conduct your business - that flying training is now shorter than it was at the height of the battle of Britain is a travesty.

Not that long ago (circa 3 years), a popular RAF flying club with about 4 instructors produced 45 PPL's; admittedly a mix of ab initios and QSP's, but still - In the same year, EFT produced 24 graduates.

HOW?!

I have railed against the system to the best of my ability, to no avail. The question is, how TF do we collectively change the RAF for the better? To put the things that really matter back in the crosshairs? I can't see a way. Maybe because I like flying and couldn't give a f*ck about having an MML I can't see a way through, but there must be one. Writing to VSO's and politicians (I do write a decent letter) changes nothing.

All ideas welcome..

[Timelord]

And did someone in the upper reaches really use the word “tailspin” to describe CAS’s state of mind? I presume it wasn’t an aviator, oh sorry, I mean someone who knows something about aviating.

[pr00ne]

OK, at the risk of detracting attention from those who are insistent on telling us what it was like for them in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's, I have recently taken up semi-retirement (virtually total apart from a little gentle consultancy) and so have had the time to do a little digging around the media and MoD stats, most of which are totally contradictory. Looking at ASCENT's published figures, those given to various Defence Select Committees, NAO reports and other MoD official documents and stats, I think that we are throwing rocks at the wrong target!

To put my exec summary first, the problem is NOT MFTS, but the Operational Conversion Units. ASCENT, the MFTS Contractor, is delivering the required total numbers annually, even considering the fact that those numbers seem to constantly fluctuate up and down based on differing SDSR's, 2010 and 2015 being the most significant in altering numbers. The MoD has a contracted total annual output called a SUN, a Statement of User Need. This is the contracted legal required output of trained pilots at the end of each year's accounting period. This appears to be around 300 for fixed wing and 270 for Rotary Wing. MFTS IS delivering these numbers, the problem seems to be two fold; firstly that the total being graduated from MFTS cannot be absorbed by the OCU's, and secondly that the total is just that, a total, with no breakdown of ab initio, refresher or instructor. So, the problem is compounded annually by the total number graduating not being given conversion slots and then, after a considerable period holding, they are fed back into the system for a refresher, thus reducing the total available instructor and genuine trainee slots. Of that 300 fixed wing for example, the last set of figures shows 117 refresher slots, so almost half of the annual output is refreshed trainees going through for a second time. This OCU issue seems to be affecting Typhoon, Lightning, Chinook, Puma and Apache.

So, as ASCENT via MFTS is only responsible for Phase 2, that is primary through advanced training in a language I understand, NOT Phase 3, the Operational Conversion stage, which is all service provided, the problem would seem to lie with the RAF and not the contractor.

Compounding all this is, as BEagle alluded to above, is the fact that the system is designed to be as cheap as possible with absolutely no allowance for surge, training bulges or any alterations in requirements. Added to which the RAF/AAC/FAA produce an annual Flying Training Plan which is issued to the contractor and advises on the required output UP TO the SUN figure. IF, as happened this year, the requirement exceeds the SUN (323 as opposed to 300) then the contractor has no opportunity to add assets, service or civilian, in that year.

Also, as someone who went through this system in the 60's saw only too visibly, there are now none of the added assets to aid such issues as outlined above (which DID exist in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's ) such as a School of Refresher flying or seperate Central Flying School squadrons with their own aircraft at Fast Jet and Rotary stages. These do not exist because the customer didn't ask for them, not because some mealy mouthed contractor didn't think that they were necessary. Thus they are not there to be used on a regular basis to aid the increased throughput of refresher or instructor aircrew. I myself knew of a fair few of my contemporaries who, for one reason or another, spent periods of time at Manby on the two squadrons of Jet Provost T4's of the School of Refresher Flying which existed precisely because it was recognised that refreshers would put an undue strain on the output of the Flying Training School's.

And finally, is the fact that the entire RAF flying training fixed wing inventory consists of: 23 Prefect T1's, 14 Texan T1's, 28 Hawk T2's and 5 Phenom T1's, plus an unknown quantity of Tutor T1's which, from a pure flying training standpoint, seem still to equip one elementary flying training squadron and an instructor squadron. This just seems far too small.

[Timelord]

Pprune, the pp presentation that was leaked to the media pretty much said that the main problem was reduced OCU capacity due to Ops, external tasking and training non U.K. aircrew. It had some stats showing the reduction in OCU demand / capacity all of which were bad but the Chinook OCU was worst. I understand that the Typhoon OCU has pretty much stopped ab-initio training. Hawk engine problem doesn’t help either.

[_SpinFlight_]

Surprised they've not started digging into the chronic currency and experience issues on the front line, particularly those around high-end war warfighting. We're very good at CAS in permissive, but congested environments, along with BFM and ACM, but dig into 4-ship Tac Ops, BVR, and SAC-T etc then the picture isn't pretty on the TyF. A result of commitments, aircraft availability (DT and TyTAN), and training burden (flying RED) to name but a few resulting in single figure monthly live flying when not deployed. A similar, if not worse position afflicts Lightning.

[tucumseh]

I'm in no position to argue with any of the above views, and most are in agreement anyway. But I have a different perspective.

It used to be that 'training' was part of the main procurement programme. In avionic terms, for example, and by edict, the simulator was #3 aircraft in the production/conversion line (after Trials and Proof), for fairly obvious reasons. In materiel and financial provisioning terms, it had the full status of a 2nd line unit. Not a portacabin in the corner of an airfield. To implement these policies, one had to get right all the things mentioned above that have gone wrong. Importantly, each Service had scrutineers who jumped all over you if it was in anyway wrong. Still extant policy, but who knows this, and who in the Services will stand up today and play this red card?

Then along came 'Integrated Logistic Support'. An unfortunate term, given that hitherto ILS meant cradle to grave management, but now referred to one small but crucial part of the whole. Training was shoved into ILS, which of course is the first target for 'savings'. Immediately, there were complete disconnects between aircraft/equipment programmes, and training. The 'ILS Date' would be announced as 'ISD minus 3 months', which is little use if it takes a year to train/convert.

Easy in theory, quite difficult in practice, but nevertheless it worked more often than not because we had guys doing this as a vocation, not a 2 year tour. And you didn't award the main contract, and only then kick off a 3 year tender for the sim or aircrew training. The successful programmes get this kind of stuff right. The last time I did it (long ago now) the key was not PFI'ing the sim. (Which was a matter of saying 'no' in the overseas sales box). The same day, Apache said ok, and look what happened. How many UK standard Apache sims did we sell?

Just a view from a different part of the same process.

A word about CAS. He carries all RAF reputational risk. It's easy for Mr Wallace to say 'fix it'. But like most Duty Holders in MoD, CAS doesn't actually have the wherewithal to do much. He relies on far too many outwith his control. As soon as he engages with, for example, DE&S, he'll perhaps be told by his opposite number that they have conflicting priorities placed upon them by Mr W. Therefore, I'd like to think their joint response was to hand Mr W a shopping list of prerequisites. This is not a matter for CAS alone. It's for the Defence Council and above.

[Timelord]

CAS is, however responsible for mandating 80/20 or 90/10 synthetic / real mix ( and, I think, aspiring to 100/0) which would be barking even with decent sims. Anyone care to comment on how many Typhoon training devices reflect the current mod and software state?

[NutLoose]

Pprune, the pp presentation that was leaked to the media pretty much said that the main problem was reduced OCU capacity due to Ops, external tasking and training non U.K. aircrew. It had some stats showing the reduction in OCU demand / capacity all of which were bad but the Chinook OCU was worst. I understand that the Typhoon OCU has pretty much stopped ab-initio training. Hawk engine problem doesn’t help either.

That doesn't account for all those in holding positions though does it.

perhaps a new brevet is in order..


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x1200/image_823b6c6e08b12df1855e4e8a9aeb6756992cdd37.jpeg

[Timelord]

I think of the 150+ holding about 60 were pre OCU. One of many issues.

[NutLoose]

Precisely, and that is defecting the bigger issue away from the public's eye, and it will not go away anytime soon.

As you know, I was an airman many moons ago and even I can see what the current sh*tstorm is creating. It rankles that those in charge and paid mega bucks to run the airforce cannot see the what is in front of their eyes. how incompetent and inept they are, the whole lot of senior ranks from the CAS down need to resign and those the have the competency to run the RAF needs to step up to the plate.
CAS more C ASS

[The...Bird]

I think of the 150+ holding about 60 were pre OCU. One of many issues.

You can make that number 300

[Professor Plum]

You can make that number 300

source?

[mopardave]

Damning.......and this guy should know!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwqL1H73omo

[typerated]

So we could disband the RAFAT and I presume a lots of their pilots were QFIs. So we could have 10 extra hawks with maybe 10 instructors available.

Could then train some of the backlog on T1s then carry on with the hawk and do a creamie course.

Aiming for less backlog and more instructors in the system

[pr00ne]

So we could disband the RAFAT and I presume a lots of their pilots were QFIs. So we could have 10 extra hawks with maybe 10 instructors available.

Could then train some of the backlog on T1s then carry on with the hawk and do a creamie course.

Aiming for less backlog and more instructors in the system

Don’t think that any are QFI’s. Tis an awful long time since the RA were found from the ranks of instructors, they all seem to come from the front line these days.

And as the T1 now only serves with the Red Arrows (17, not 10) if you disbanded them the type would simply be retired.

[charliegolf]

Don’t think that any are QFI’s. Tis an awful long time since the RA were found from the ranks of instructors, they all seem to come from the front line these days.

And as the T1 now only serves with the Red Arrows (17, not 10) if you disbanded them the type would simply be retired.

Take em away for a newly invented 6 week assistant instructor course. Pass them all and put them to work.

CG

[The B Word]

The problem is OCUs as I understand it. Whilst the Hawk T2 has been explained to have some ongoing engine issues, there are Pilots waiting for OCUs as I understand it? Anyway, the T1 is a pretty poor training aircraft for future F35B and Typhoon pilots - like learning to ride on an old BSA before being let loose on a superbike!

[charliegolf]

The problem is OCUs as I understand it. Whilst the Hawk T2 has been explained to have some ongoing engine issues, there are Pilots waiting for OCUs as I understand it? Anyway, the T1 is a pretty poor training aircraft for future F35B and Typhoon pilots - like learning to ride on an old BSA before being let loose on a superbike!

I'm 65. I reckon I could ride a c15 in the morning and a superbike after lunch. Safely. Having only a Honda 50 in my quiver.

CG

[The B Word]

Shortly after the first bend…:E
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1105/bfa209d2_646c_4b26_926b_4f7cd29d37fc_286ca084e7869e9040b5e2d 5e7f8f480677b68f7.jpeg

[typerated]

Heard a rumour that the RAF will change the colour scheme applied to service aircraft.

No more black training aircraft or dull grey front line with toned down markings.

A very inclusive rainbow will be just the job

[langleybaston]

Please allow an interested outsider a view.

Towards the end of my career in Met. I worked to one-stars and with senior officers in various disciplines: Vulcan, Victor, Harrier, Tornado, Eng., Legal, Medical. This was in the 1980s 1990s.
To a man and woman they seemed dedicated and competent.

Judging by what I read in this thread and others, something has gone wrong with the higher direction of the RAF, very sad personally for me, even without a dog in the fight.

[[email protected]]

Judging by what I read in this thread and others, something has gone wrong with the higher direction of the RAF, very sad personally for me, even without a dog in the fight. Not dealing with the top heavy rank structure whilst hollowing out the numbers at the coal face would be a starter for 10.

Then competition for VSO positions and promoting those in their own image, ridiculously short tours to meet the ability to be MRAF before retiring - claimed to be 'broadening'.

Successive 'initiatives' to streamline flying training, usually from those who know little about it - what a mate of mine referred to as the 'Senior Officers Good Ideas Club'.

All the time reducing the number of front-line seats available. Overstretch with Ops taking assets from OCUs.

The list goes on and on.

[NutLoose]

The thing I cannot get my head around is a lot of them will have gone through the system, therefore why are they screwing around with what worked, my only assumption is so they can bolster their employment chances post RAF to the detriment of the Service.

I would like to see a ban on all senior officers holding posts in companies related to their dealings whilst in service for a period of say 5 years minimum to prevent a conflict of interests..

[oldmansquipper]

Nutloose - fat chance!

Here’s just one example of why not.

I recall as part of an Contract Maintenance Audit team, I had cause to to issue a ‘Cat 2’ non compliance report on a well known civilian contractor at a flying training base somewhere oop norf.

suffice it to say the AP100b Engineering Orders (which, you may have been familiar with) was at best being deliberately misinterpreted to reduce staffing levels below what was in the contract, so that profit was being maximised.

Anyway…when my team leader (A Wg Cdr Engineer) took my report he said “That’s all very well, but I am not going to mention this……”. Should have formed part of the wash up and out brief to the Civilian Contract manager (O.C. Eng equiv) Fair enough? His prerogative as team leader, I guess. His signature.

The said Wg Cdr then left the service shortly after, and, allegedly, walked straight into a senior engineering job with…you’ve guessed it….the very same Maintenance Contractor.

same old same old….

[hunterboy]

Perhaps we need to broaden that employment ban to all ex civil servants and politicians to 5 years rather than the few months it is at the moment?

[langleybaston]

Perhaps we need to broaden that employment ban to all ex civil servants and politicians to 5 years rather than the few months it is at the moment?

Worth a punt, but at what level does the ban start? One star and equivalent? Below that there is not a lot of clout and only partial expertise/ insider networking.

Or was I kept out in the cold? Glad to walk away, but miffed not to be head-hunted!

[Doctor Cruces]

What is needed is to take it all back in house as it was in my day. What was a cynical political measure to be able to say "We've reduced the size of the military and saved x billions of pounds" always failed to mention that these military jobs were now outsourced at an extra cost of x billions of pounds. Stop messing about with what should be purely a military organisation and make it fit for purpose again.

[oldmansquipper]

I'm 65. I reckon I could ride a c15 in the morning and a superbike after lunch. Safely. Having only a Honda 50 in my quiver.

CG

totally agree. Back in the last century, I had a BSA Bantam 125 which I chopped in for a BSA c10 250. No problem then. But I didn’t ride bikes for the next 40 years, only becoming a born again biker on my retirement. Still with a full licence, I wisely did a refresher course with an ex RLC instructor (excellent chap called Arthur) on a Honda 500. His brief to me before I rode a bike for the first time in 40 years was..

” you may find things have changed a bit,…remember though the gear change has changed sides as has the back brake pedal…and talking of brakes….they actually work. But it’s a just a bike..enjoy!”

[dctyke]

https://news.sky.com/story/raf-pauses-job-offers-for-white-men-to-meet-impossible-diversity-targets-12674409

[Just This Once...]

Words fail me when it comes to Wiggy.

[Dan Winterland]

The whole system is broken, and it's not just to do with MFTS. Ascent can't keep instructors, but when you see what they have to go through, you will understand why. An ex-colleague who worked for them for two years before quitting mentioned in the modern risk-averse RAF, it was easier to get a B747 with 400 passenger from London to Hong Kong that it is to get a Prefect airborne from Cranwell for an hour long instructional sortie.

[BEagle]

Ah but Dan, you have to remember that (as I was once told), the level of bull$hit is inversely proportional to the importance of the aircraft!

After I finished the CFS course, a Bulldog had to be collected/swapped with another at (I think) Topcliffe. All the instructors were busy, so I said I'd be happy to do the trips. There then followed much sucking of teeth - I was no longer a CFS student, so they couldn't find a rule which would allow me to do that simple trip. So no-one would authorise it! "In which case I might as well bug ger off home", I said..... So I did!

6 months earlier, I'd been pre-authorised to fly a VC10K3 to Hawaii and back. Yet in Learning Command no-one would authorise a basic landaway from Lincolnshire to Yorkshire and back.....

[steamchicken]

About the "pause": there are two ways of getting rid of a queue. either you increase the rate of people leaving it, or you reduce the rate of people joining it.

Mathematically, if the rate joining is greater than the rate leaving, the queue grows at a rate given by the ratio between the two. (E.g. if one person is processed an hour, and two people arrive every hour, the queue grows by one person per hour.) If the rate joining is less, it shrinks. If they are equal the queue remains at its current size. If a queue exists and isn't growing or shrinking, this tells us that the rates are currently equal but a backlog developed at some point in the past. To get rid of it you have to process people (or whatever) faster than they arrive, so that you're both dealing with the arrivals and working through the backlog.

Seeing as close to half the total capacity is being used to refresh people stuck in the queue, it makes a lot of sense to turn the tap off until the queue can be cleared, and it's something that can be done much quicker than adding more capacity. In fact, given how fast a queue can grow and the fact that adding more capacity takes time, it may even be *impossible* to get rid of it by adding capacity. (If the queue growth during the time it takes to get more capacity in place is more than the increment of new capacity....)

Obviously this is a mess and says terrible things about ASCENT, the MFTS, and everyone involved...which is why, perhaps, putting the boot into Wigston about culture war issues might serve an unattributable briefer's interests...

[ShyTorque]

Take em away for a newly invented 6 week assistant instructor course. Pass them all and put them to work.

CG

But they are flying an otherwise obsolete type of aircraft. Getting them up to speed to instruct on another type would take additional time and resources.

[charliegolf]

But they are flying an otherwise obsolete type of aircraft. Getting them up to speed to instruct on another type would take additional time and resources.

It was rather t-i-c from me.

But, are we saying ALL current Typhoon and F35 pilots were trained oh Hawk 2s?

CG

[Bob Viking]

The first students were trained on T2 in 2012. So the answer to your question is no.

BV

[charliegolf]

Cheers Bob.

[sycamore]

BV,as it gets mentioned here about the `Hawk` engine problems,perhaps you could elaborate on what they are,and what is being done about it...?

[Bob Viking]

I’m afraid that, due to commercial sensitivities, I am not at liberty to say anything on here. It’s also worth pointing out that my days as the resident Hawk hero are numbered. As of 20 Sep I’ll be a civilian and no longer flying Hawks. 3011 hours on type (T1/T2/115/165/166) is enough for anyone!

BV

[iRaven]

BV,as it gets mentioned here about the `Hawk` engine problems,perhaps you could elaborate on what they are,and what is being done about it...?

It was in the first SkyNews video with the leaked info. If you look closely it states cracked LP modules in the Adour 951s - this has led to a reduced time between replacements:

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1143/c1535beb_73fe_48a2_94ff_57ada4802727_d92be1da9041fe9fb29457b 64aaea3616e722acb.jpeg

Linky to video - look around 0:40 secs in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV237W2uNvc

[pr00ne]

What is needed is to take it all back in house as it was in my day. What was a cynical political measure to be able to say "We've reduced the size of the military and saved x billions of pounds" always failed to mention that these military jobs were now outsourced at an extra cost of x billions of pounds. Stop messing about with what should be purely a military organisation and make it fit for purpose again.

But, as highlighted by many, the actual problem lies at the OCU stage, which IS all in house!

[dervish]

But, as highlighted by many, the actual problem lies at the OCU stage, which IS all in house!

To me, the various posts here indicate that the different parts of delivering trained aircrew are stovepiped. Is there one person in charge of the whole, and does he/she/it have the authority to match responsibility? I wonder if the answer is it all only comes together at CAS's level, which would explain a lot.

[oldmansquipper]

I’m afraid that, due to commercial sensitivities, I am not at liberty to say anything on here. It’s also worth pointing out that my days as the resident Hawk hero are numbered. As of 20 Sep I’ll be a civilian and no longer flying Hawks. 3011 hours on type (T1/T2/115/165/166) is enough for anyone!

BV

Thank you for your service, sir.

With what’s going on at the moment, you must be looking forward eagerly to the 20th. Good luck for the future.

I, for one have enjoyed your comment on here over the years. Please don’t stop.

[langleybaston]

Seconded, thank you very much.

[Bob Viking]

Thank you for your service, sir.

With what’s going on at the moment, you must be looking forward eagerly to the 20th. Good luck for the future.

I, for one have enjoyed your comment on here over the years. Please don’t stop.

Thankyou very much for your kind comments. I still have a lot of love for the RAF and would not rule out rejoining in the future if circumstances suit me. Though I will admit to more concern than I’ve ever previously had about the direction the RAF is currently heading. As I sit on the periphery looking back over my shoulder it doesn’t look pretty.

I’m sure I’ll still pop up from time to time but I will try my best to only comment on things I feel qualified to.

BV

[Jackonicko]

I’m afraid that, due to commercial sensitivities, I am not at liberty to say anything on here. It’s also worth pointing out that my days as the resident Hawk hero are numbered. As of 20 Sep I’ll be a civilian and no longer flying Hawks. 3011 hours on type (T1/T2/115/165/166) is enough for anyone!

BV

What no 103/203, BV?

Or had they gone by the time you got to the land of the 166?

[olster]

Well done Bob, great job. Had a ride in the back seat of a Hawk in the mid 90s with a well known and very Scottish QFI as part of a concocted exchange scheme with the airline run by Britain’s favourite bearded entrepreneur to our hopefully mutual benefit and certainly as much fun as it gets. I was the guinea pig for the exchange but I was completely in awe of the competence I witnessed. Not for the faint hearted; really only for the most driven and motivated, certainly nothing to do with the presently lunacy wrt diversity targets.

[Bob Viking]

What no 103/203, BV?

Or had they gone by the time you got to the land of the 166?

When I started in country I was on a very specific contract to introduce the 166. The 103/203s were still going but I didn’t get to fly them. They then went out of service during my time there. It would have been fun to fly a 203 though. Just like sitting in the back of a normal Hawk but with the front seat removed.

Olster.

That exchange was still going years later and I benefited from the return fixture when my wife and I got a free ride on a 747 to NY to purchase our wedding rings at a famous 5th Ave jewellers. We had some very nice seats as well, very near the front of the aircraft.

BV

[Jackonicko]

And a radar!

I'd understood that most of the 103/203 fleet (2 103s and about four 203s) went VERY soon after the 166 came in, in late 2017 (contrary to the impression left by the 2022 IISS 'Military Balance', and the Flight Global 2022 Wolrd Air Forces) but that they kept a handful (1 Mk 103 and two or three 203s) as hacks and for senior officer currency until more recently - perhaps as late as 2020?

Like others, I unreservedly and enthusiastically wish you well with whatever you do next, but I have to confess that that's tinged with some sadness. It strikes me that you are EXACTLY the kind of officer that the RAF can ill afford to lose. Your input here has always shown you to be an intelligent, articulate, officer who is loyal but not unquestioning. I'm told by Valley mates that you're also a superb pilot, and a highly professional and coolly analytical instructor who is capable of delivering understandable, useful feedback and who is a great role model for his students.

[Mogwi]

Good luck BV, I am sure that you will prosper away from the RAF. It took me 2 years to get an airline job but then I enjoyed 19 fun years in the big red and white (sometimes silver!) birds. Great for strimmers and cat food, not to mention lazy days on the beach in the Caribbean.

Now just turn a bi-plane upside down for fun - and try to avoid the Lifetime Allowance!

Mog

[Bob Viking]

Thankyou both. And Jacko, I’m going to screengrab your post and save it. It’s as good as a valedictory letter! 🤣

Anyway, this thread isn’t just about me so I’ll let the conversation continue.

BV

[ancientaviator62]

BV
I echo the sentiments of the previous posters. As to valedictory letters your screen grab one may well be more accurate than the official one. I do not know who drafted mine but but it was very odd to say the least.

[Mogwi]

I didn’t get one. Not even a mention of my last SHAR trip, where I managed to struggle the jet back and land it with no pitch control! I also avoided the local school, church and old folks home.

Mog

[charliegolf]

Mog..

DSC vs a sucky letter from the boss? Mmm, let me think:ok: You'll live mate!

CG

[Haraka]

My Draft Valedictory was sent to my (French Ex Jaguar exchange) boss for completion. He handed it across to me to add whatever I liked to it.
So into the bin it went.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I left the CAF they way I joined it. My Commissioning Scroll arrived in a tube which was casually tossed to me by a Clerk as I walked by the unit Amin Office. My last official correspondence was a one paragraph PFO letter directing me to retire.

I am however not in the slightest bit bitter. At times I suffered under some truly toxic senior management, but they will never be able to take away my fond memories of the great people I worked with.

[melmothtw]

It gets worse -

https://twitter.com/GarethJennings3/status/1570307492084842497


Just found the original link at https://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2022-09-07.49064.h&s=defence#g49064.q0

[tucumseh]

It gets worse -

https://twitter.com/GarethJennings3/status/1570307492084842497


Just found the original link at https://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2022-09-07.49064.h&s=defence#g49064.q0


Thank you for the link.

MoD says:

"A fault has been identified with the Rolls-Royce/Safran Adour 951 engine, which powers the Hawk TMk2. Initial assessments suggest the reduction in aircraft availability will have an impact on UK Fast Jet (FJ) training output over the next three years, but work is ongoing to minimise that impact".

3 years might suggest a defect, rather than a fault. Two entirely different things.

[pr00ne]

An MFTS problem?

I think not.

The Hawk T2 fleet is owned by the RAF, the 28 aircraft being a direct MoD procurement from BAE Systems.

Isn't this the supposed panacea that will solve all MFTS ills, RAF owned trainer aircraft as opposed to contractor owned?

Seemingly not..,

[melmothtw]

An MFTS problem?

I think not.

'Unfortunately' there was no thread that I could find related to UK military flight training that wasn't related to UKMFTS.

[[email protected]]

Because the RAF did such a good job on airworthiness with the Vigilants.........oh hang on...

[melmothtw]

'Unfortunately' there was no thread that I could find related to UK military flight training that wasn't related to UKMFTS.

Also, last I checked, the Advanced Fast Jet Training (AFJT) package that uses the Hawk T2 is provided by Ascent. Is that not the case?

[chopper2004]

I left the CAF they way I joined it. My Commissioning Scroll arrived in a tube which was casually tossed to me by a Clerk as I walked by the unit Amin Office. My last official correspondence was a one paragraph PFO letter directing me to retire.

I am however not in the slightest bit bitter. At times I suffered under some truly toxic senior management, but they will never be able to take away my fond memories of the great people I worked with.

Oh thats professional - from here ?

https://www.rmc-cmr.ca/en

Talking about Canada and flying training bar the Texan and Hawk ...I take it their system is finely tuned and delivers to wings standard and not have same problems as us here in old blighty.

https://www.kfaero.ca/defence-programs/future-aircrew-training-fact/

Also I understand that it sup for grabs with FACT.

cheers

[pr00ne]

Also, last I checked, the Advanced Fast Jet Training (AFJT) package that uses the Hawk T2 is provided by Ascent. Is that not the case?

But the aircraft are provided by MoD and were an outright purchase for the RAF from BAE Systems.

I think I am right in saying that makes them unique in the entire RAF/RN/AAC Flying Training world.

And the instructors are UK military.

[Baldeep Inminj]

Oh thats professional - from here ?

https://www.rmc-cmr.ca/en

Talking about Canada and flying training bar the Texan and Hawk ...I take it their system is finely tuned and delivers to wings standard and not have same problems as us here in old blighty.

https://www.kfaero.ca/defence-programs/future-aircrew-training-fact/

Also I understand that it sup for grabs with FACT.

cheers

Yes, indeed it is. FAcT will be awrded in Autumn '23 and the winning bidder will select and provide aircraft, synthetic devices, courseware, instructors, ATC, etc etc for a 20 year delivery period. The competition is down to the final 2 bidders, SkyAlyne (50/50 JV between CAE and KF Aerospace - both Canadian) and Babcock/Leonardo (Leonardo being the company with deep ties to the Russian state https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/leonardo-helicopters-russia-rostec-rosneft-6745975 ).
Contract value is $8 Billion+. CAE currently provides the training at Moosejaw through NFTC and KF provides the rotary training at Southport.

It will be an interesting watch!

[Trumpet trousers]

But the aircraft are provided by MoD and were an outright purchase for the RAF from BAE Systems.

I think I am right in saying that makes them unique in the entire RAF/RN/AAC Flying Training world.

And the instructors are UK military.

I believe that they are also unique in the fact that the number of airframes (24?) exceeds the number of engines to go with the same (22?) - how on earth did that happen, and what was the logic (!) behind that decision?

[pr00ne]

I believe that they are also unique in the fact that the number of airframes (24?) exceeds the number of engines to go with the same (22?) - how on earth did that happen, and what was the logic (!) behind that decision?

28 aircraft, no idea about number of engines, but again that will be down to the organisation that purchased them, the RAF/MoD, and nothing to do with MFTS or Ascent.
If true then it will indeed be a baffling decision that flies in the face of the norm, which is usually airframes complete with engines, plus spare engines and components.

[The B Word]

It was 28 Hawk T2 - https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/britain-orders-28-hawk-lift-advanced-fighter-trainers-02734/

However, it was also true that only 26 engines were bought as the expectation was that the aircraft in deep servicing wouldn’t need their engines - a massively flawed decision. However, the extra 2 engines were eventually purchased.

[melmothtw]

Too few engines was never going to work, but in this case I am not sure it would have made much of a difference as the issue is a fault with the engines, not the number of engines. Even if the MoD had bough 100 spare engines, they too would suffer from the same fault and be unusable under the current circumstances.

[Hawky McHawkface]

Too few engines was never going to work, but in this case I am not sure it would have made much of a difference as the issue is a fault with the engines, not the number of engines. Even if the MoD had bough 100 spare engines, they too would suffer from the same fault and be unusable under the current circumstances.

That’s not true if the issue occurs on accrual of fatigue by flying hours. As an example a 100 spare engines would provide ability to generate an additional 100,000+ flying hours.

[Evalu8ter]

Wasn’t the T2 purchase a pure bit of Pork Barrel from ‘2 Jags’ Prescott to keep Brough going until the next election?

[cynicalint]

From the DT just now...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/09/16/faulty-french-parts-blamed-raf-jet-engine-failures/
A British government minister has blamed the French for problems with RAF jet engines that could delay military pilot training for up to three years.Engines in the Air Force’s Hawk T. Mk.2 training aircraft have been pulled from service amid fears of in-flight failures. Defence procurement minister Alec Shelbrooke, appointed by Liz Truss last week, revealed that a shortage of engines caused by problems with French-made components will last for up to three years. In a parliamentary statement last week Mr Shelbrooke said: “A fault has been identified with the Rolls-Royce/Safran Adour 951 engine, which powers the Hawk T. Mk.2. “As a precaution, a number of engines have been temporarily removed from service whilst the Ministry of Defence supports a Rolls-Royce/Safran investigation into the root cause and rectification.”Problems with the Hawks’ Adour engines, built by a joint venture between Britain and France, were traced by engineers to a component made by the French aero-engine manufacturer.

Safran makes the low pressure compressor fan for the Adour 951, a component specifically referred to in Mr Shelbrooke’s parliamentary statement.

Rolls-Royce and Safran said in a joint statement: “We cannot comment on operational availability, however, we continue to work closely with our military customer to ensure we maximise the Royal Air Force’s training capability.” Neither company would say how many engines were affected, or explain why the French-made component had failed.

“Initial assessments suggest the reduction in aircraft availability will have an impact on UK fast jet training output over the next three years.”The Hawk Mk.2 is used by the RAF for advanced fighter pilot training at RAF Valley, Anglesey. The Mark 2 is a newer version of the original Hawk T. Mk.1 jet, which is still flown by the Red Arrows (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/features/red-arrows-leader-swaps-jet-land-rover-tour-lincolnshire/). The compressor fan problem does not affect the Red Arrows’ aircraft, which use a different version of the Adour engine.

BAE Systems, which builds the Hawk, said: “Through a collaborative approach with the Royal Air Force and our industry partners, we continue to deliver long-term support and maintenance to the RAF Hawk fleet, to ensure their readiness and availability.”

About 3,000 Adour engines have been delivered over the past 30 years, with the type powering various Hawk models including T-45 Goshawks sold to the US Navy, the Anglo-French Jaguar fighter jet and various military and civil helicopters.

RAF pilot training has been beset by delays for many years. A 2019 National Audit Office report found that fighter jet pilots were languishing in training for a total of seven years (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/09/03/raf-fighter-jet-training-delayed-almost-two-years-mps-report/) thanks to delays under a privatised pilot training contract.

This month Rolls-Royce said it was pulling out of a contract with US company Boom, which is making a “son of Concorde” (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/08/03/virgin-galactic-rolls-royce-join-forces-son-concorde/) supersonic airliner, saying “the commercial aviation supersonic market is not currently a priority for us”.

The London-listed engine maker was trading at 76.4p on Friday afternoon, a significant discount on its five-year high of £3.75 from October 2018.

[aw ditor]

pas de probleme.

[WB627]

Bet they wish they hadn't scrapped the T1's

[Shaft109]

Engines -

Sorry for the intrusion here - I'm having real trouble understanding the logic to buy less engines than airframes. OK a small flying school wouldn't have complete spare engines knocking around, and an airline will have alternative arrangements for a large podded engine or 3.

But surely the slight expense of having say 35 complete engines (not withstanding the fact a specific weakness as mentioned across all of those engines) stored ready to swap would be a nice hedge. Especially for Military flying training where the usage profile is much more aggressive.

My mental hourglass icon is on overdrive. It just doesn't compute.

[Sarawack]

Shaft,

It doesn’t compute because it isn’t true…

[WB627]

Bean Counters, dear boy, bean counters

[Shaft109]

Shaft,

It doesn’t compute because it isn’t true…

Noted,

[tucumseh]

Engines -

Sorry for the intrusion here - I'm having real trouble understanding the logic to buy less engines than airframes. OK a small flying school wouldn't have complete spare engines knocking around, and an airline will have alternative arrangements for a large podded engine or 3.

But surely the slight expense of having say 35 complete engines (not withstanding the fact a specific weakness as mentioned across all of those engines) stored ready to swap would be a nice hedge. Especially for Military flying training where the usage profile is much more aggressive.

My mental hourglass icon is on overdrive. It just doesn't compute.

In VERY simple terms, there is a formula that is used to calculate Depot Stock; called, imaginatively, STOCKCAL.


It uses Number of Aircraft, Fit Policy, Flying Hours, Repair Pipeline Times, Recovery Rate at 1st Line, Recovery Rate at 2nd Line, and Mean Time Between Removals (not Failure, as it is the act of removal that places the demand on the spares) to determine the Depot Stock level. This, in addition to laid down spares levels at each unit, which is a far simpler calculation based on aircraft numbers, role, and MTBR.

Numbers/ Fit Policy/Flying Hours/Times are dictated by the Centre for each year. Last time I looked, Recovery Rates were required to be at least 8% and 68% respectively; the latter determining the scale and scope of 3/4 Line contracts. It can be seen that maintaining the integrity of STOCKCAL (the primary role of any Support Authority), for any given inventory item, is utterly crucial, as it is inextricably linked to, for example, manning and funding in almost every area of aircraft operations. Almost any In-Service Support problem can be resolved by applying it.


It would be interesting to know if this mandated policy is reflected in the outsourced support contracts that now dominate military support. I somehow doubt it. Lacking knowledgeable Service input, the figures are too easy to manipulate. That is why scrutiny of all requirements must be carried out from the User's point of view; another widely ignored mandate.

As I said, a deliberately simplistic overview.


Edit: Sorry, I really should have said that if the Fit Policy is not Full Fleet Fit, and there is only one item per aircraft, and a single unit/squadron at one location, then it will not be unusual for the total number of items to be less than the number of aircraft.

[[email protected]]

Sounds like they are now allowed to tailor the buy to meet the budget constraints and accept shortfalls rather than procure properly with a plan that works.

[typerated]

John Healey, Shadow Secretary of State for Defence, asked the Secretary of State for Defence:

“What steps his Department is taking to ensure that the disruption to the UK Fast Jet training is minimised over the next three years.”

James Heappey, Minister of State for the Ministry of Defence, responded:

“Measures being considered include sending further trainees to the NATO Joint Jet Pilot Training programme in the USA; accelerating planning for No 11 Squadron (Joint Qatar/UK Squadron) at RAF Leeming to train RAF pilots from late 2022 until 2027; and working with allies and partners to examine whether UK pilots could be trained overseas, or where we might pool our resources, to mutual benefit.”

[LateArmLive]

John Healey, Shadow Secretary of State for Defence, asked the Secretary of State for Defence:

“What steps his Department is taking to ensure that the disruption to the UK Fast Jet training is minimised over the next three years.”

James Heappey, Minister of State for the Ministry of Defence, responded:

“Measures being considered include sending further trainees to the NATO Joint Jet Pilot Training programme in the USA; accelerating planning for No 11 Squadron (Joint Qatar/UK Squadron) at RAF Leeming to train RAF pilots from late 2022 until 2027; and working with allies and partners to examine whether UK pilots could be trained overseas, or where we might pool our resources, to mutual benefit.”

And the worst part of this? We all saw it coming years ago but nobody listened.

[CAEBr]

James Heappey, Minister of State for the Ministry of Defence, responded:

“Measures being considered include sending further trainees to the NATO Joint Jet Pilot Training programme in the USA; accelerating planning for No 11 Squadron (Joint Qatar/UK Squadron) at RAF Leeming to train RAF pilots from late 2022 until 2027; and working with allies and partners to examine whether UK pilots could be trained overseas, or where we might pool our resources, to mutual benefit.”

Perhaps the minister could dust off his copy of the Observers book of aircraft to see what engine is fitted to the Qatari Hawk Mk167 - a warmed over T2.
Spoiler - its an Adour 951.

The bit about pooling our resources is also a good one, what have we got that we could pool, other than a few instructors ? About as much use as pooling maritime resources after we'd binned Nimrod.

[Asturias56]

"Sounds like they are now allowed to tailor the buy to meet the budget constraints and accept shortfalls rather than procure properly with a plan that works."

i'm afraid its been like that since at least the 1960's

[Bob Viking]

I think you may find the problem with the 951 is age (hours) related. The 11 Sqn (and other foreign customers) jets are much younger than the RAF T2s. Hence the problem is potentially not quite so pressing.

BV

[dervish]

age (hours)

An important distinction after the Shoreham **** up.

[CAEBr]

I think you may find the problem with the 951 is age (hours) related. The 11 Sqn (and other foreign customers) jets are much younger than the RAF T2s. Hence the problem is potentially not quite so pressing.
BV

Bob,
I agree, and I was somewhat tongue in cheek. However, if the RAF become the prime user in effect of the Mk167s the usage rate will increase beyond that of the other late export 951 engined fleets. Also, as with the uncontained 871 failures experienced by the USN and the RAAF, even if age/usage plays a part it is not the only element.

[chopper2004]

With regard to the shortage that is becoming, a former Wing Commander is critical of sending our studes to Sheppard and reckons be better off training down under as they have the Hawk T2 and their procedures similar to ours. He himself was exchange instructor at ENJJPT

https://www.key.aero/article/ex-raf-chief-condemns-us-hosted-enjjpt-pilot-training-programme

'He said in written evidence: “The problem with the training at ENJJPT is that it is based on the United States Air Force (https://www.key.aero/us-air-force-usaf) philosophy of training. At ENJJPT the flying is strictly regimented. Students must comply exactly with the manual’s way of flying. If they do, they pass the course, if not they fail.'

cheers

[SLXOwft]

I understand that the Mk 127 has suffered availability issues including a 3 week fleet grounding in May/June 2019 following an engine issue. Having chosen to upgrade the Hawks instead of replacing them, as part of the upgrade 'The aircraft will now receive an engine upgrade to the latest Rolls-Royce Adour Mk951 standard common to the UK RAF’s Hawk T2 which should alleviate some of the engine issues and poor availability (https://adbr.com.au/raaf-hawks-grounded-after-engine-issue/) the fleet has suffered in recent years.' (Source: Australian Defence Business Review February 21, 2022)

(apologies for the repetitive 'upgrade'):O

[[email protected]]

'He said in written evidence: “The problem with the training at ENJJPT is that it is based on the United States Air Force (https://www.key.aero/us-air-force-usaf) philosophy of training. At ENJJPT the flying is strictly regimented. Students must comply exactly with the manual’s way of flying. If they do, they pass the course, if not they fail.' the AAC found the same thing when the first AH-64 pilots were trained at Rucker - no room for thinking, just repeat the words verbatim and pass the course - one of the main reasons the training was brought home as soon as the instructors had been trained up.

[GeeRam]

With regard to the shortage that is becoming, a former Wing Commander is critical of sending our studes to Sheppard and reckons be better off training down under as they have the Hawk T2 and their procedures similar to ours. He himself was exchange instructor at ENJJPT

https://www.key.aero/article/ex-raf-chief-condemns-us-hosted-enjjpt-pilot-training-programme

'He said in written evidence: “The problem with the training at ENJJPT is that it is based on the United States Air Force (https://www.key.aero/us-air-force-usaf) philosophy of training. At ENJJPT the flying is strictly regimented. Students must comply exactly with the manual’s way of flying. If they do, they pass the course, if not they fail.'

cheers

This was the more interesting bit of the article...

He added: “The RAF sent four students per year to ENJJPT. When the students returned to the UK the intention was for them to fly a 30-hour orientation course and then go to weapons training. Unfortunately, the ENJJPTS training did not meet the entry standards for Tactical Weapons Training and the students had to complete almost all the RAF’s Advanced Fast-Jet Training syllabus to meet the standard. As a result, the UK withdrew from ENJJPT after a few years. Nothing will have changed. Sending students to ENJJPT will therefore not alleviate the problems caused by the shortage of Hawk aircraft.

“The ENJJPT solution is attractive because it is simplistic and probably the cheapest option. The fact that it will not solve the problem and end up as a waste of resources, student training time and taxpayers’ money will, on past evidence, be ignored by the MOD. This must not be allowed to happen.

“A better solution would be to investigate sending students to the Royal Australian Air Force for Advanced Fast-Jet Training. They use a version of the Hawk similar to the RAF’s T2 and their philosophy towards training is akin to ours. On completion of Advanced Fast-Jet Training the students could either return to the UK for the tactical weapons phase (carried out on the Hawk that they are already qualified on) or, if it was found suitable, complete the Australian weapons course.”

[PPRuNeUser0211]

This was the more interesting bit of the article...

He added: “The RAF sent four students per year to ENJJPT. When the students returned to the UK the intention was for them to fly a 30-hour orientation course and then go to weapons training. Unfortunately, the ENJJPTS training did not meet the entry standards for Tactical Weapons Training and the students had to complete almost all the RAF’s Advanced Fast-Jet Training syllabus to meet the standard. As a result, the UK withdrew from ENJJPT after a few years. Nothing will have changed. Sending students to ENJJPT will therefore not alleviate the problems caused by the shortage of Hawk aircraft.

“The ENJJPT solution is attractive because it is simplistic and probably the cheapest option. The fact that it will not solve the problem and end up as a waste of resources, student training time and taxpayers’ money will, on past evidence, be ignored by the MOD. This must not be allowed to happen.

“A better solution would be to investigate sending students to the Royal Australian Air Force for Advanced Fast-Jet Training. They use a version of the Hawk similar to the RAF’s T2 and their philosophy towards training is akin to ours. On completion of Advanced Fast-Jet Training the students could either return to the UK for the tactical weapons phase (carried out on the Hawk that they are already qualified on) or, if it was found suitable, complete the Australian weapons course.”
If only there was a NATO nation running a flying training course using a Hawk with (an admittedly previous gen) glass cockpit/hud that had provided sterling output for UK students for years until we decided we didn't need any of it because MFTS ....

[Bob Viking]

I know of an Air Force that operates exactly the same mark of Hawk as the RAF (actually there are two but I can only vouch for one) that could have provided some spare capacity to train UK pilots. The course is almost identical (actually better), the airspace is vast and the standard of training could be excellent. Albeit IMC time would have been very limited. But, of course, CFS knows best.

As for NFTC, I can also vouch for that. However, CFS once again decided a few years back that it was also not suitable. Though quite how they then came to the conclusion that ENJPPT was suitable is beyond me. It’s the least suitable of all the options but then maybe it was cheaper. Admittedly with the kind of flying we do nowadays the disadvantages of ENJPPT may not be quite so impactful.

BV

[RAFEngO74to09]

(6) Aeronautica Militare on Twitter: "Today, during the #AeroSpacePowerConference, signed the Technical Arrangement between #ItalianAirForce and #Raf for the training of British pilots at the International Flight Training School #IFTS, training reality born with the collaboration of @Leonardo_live https://t.co/hii5RSo3AT" / Twitter

[Lima Juliet]

Flying the jet that we should have bought instead of the Mk 2 offering of Bungling Baron Waste-O’Space and the underhand dabbling of quadruple-chinned “2 Jags” Prescott to buy votes in his constituency (allegedly).


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/596x397/img_6263_65dd504fba048ff608187f3754a6ded129f6c4f2.jpeg

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/584x413/img_6265_52624553650628680e28dd2fbd726e064daf3a95.jpeg

[mopardave]

(6) Aeronautica Militare on Twitter: "Today, during the #AeroSpacePowerConference, signed the Technical Arrangement between #ItalianAirForce and #Raf for the training of British pilots at the International Flight Training School #IFTS, training reality born with the collaboration of @Leonardo_live https://t.co/hii5RSo3AT" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/ItalianAirForce/status/1657286977203339264)
I'm happy to be corrected on this but why on earth would Wigston look so pleased that the Italian Air Force is having to do what he can't........train pilots! Fine if it gets the job done.......needs must and all that, but how on earth have we been reduced to this? Should he not feel utterly humiliated?

[Abbey Road]

I'm happy to be corrected on this but why on earth would Wigston look so pleased that the Italian Air Force is having to do what he can't........train pilots!
Because he is a supreme 🔔 🔚 ?

[dervish]

Is it not telling that there are 3 threads in the top 10 this morning discussing the same failures in the same part of MoD by the same people?

[Lordflasheart]

...
What's Italian for "Follow me through, Smith-Barry - You have control." ?

Five months at the NATO Language School in Rome ??

"Why on earth would Wigston look so pleased ... ?

Because he's expecting to be appointed Commandant of above School.

LFH (cfs) :)

[pr00ne]

The PM today announced the opening of a “new Military Flying School” to begin the training of Ukranian pilots.

Anyone know where, with what?

[bugged on the right]

And by whom pr00ne? Perhaps the Italians under sub subcontract.

[mopardave]

The PM today announced the opening of a “new Military Flying School” to begin the training of Ukranian pilots.

Anyone know where, with what?
The piece I listened to, clearly stated "we" would be training their fighter pilots. Either the journalist got it wrong or there's capacity in our training system.......in which case everything is now tickety boo. Wigston needn't have troubled the Italians!

[RAFEngO74to09]

(1) Deborah Haynes on Twitter: "NEW: Incoming head of the @RoyalAirForce signals a plan to train Ukrainian pilots could well have an impact on the flow of UK trainees wanting to learn how to fly. (It's worth recalling that the RAF's flying training system is already plagued by chronic delays) 1/" / Twitter

[POBJOY]

Why is everyone getting excited, everything is now VIRTUAL so you only have to train to react to a virtual threat. As for our 'ex pat' pilots training the Chinese to be able to cope with 'western' tactics we will simply order our guys to adopt their tactics and then reactivate 11 group and Bently Priory and use super coded messages like Angels One Five and Buster or pancake. Its only a huge joke, it has to be, no one with a grain of a brain could possibly think that anyone actually believes this is real. Even the aircraft shortage is no problem, at a secret location in a clotted cream mine somewhere in the west country are dozens of Kirby Cadet MK 111 gliders being prepared to boost the training system. These are so high tech they do not use propellers thereby removing a major failure potential. whilst also teaching all he basic skills required for flight and reducing the costs of overshoots (you cant). There we are all sorted and then we can get on with all the important stuff like replacing the carpets at MOD or deciding who pays for the biscuits at the meetings. Actually I have found it very difficult to send biscuits via the usb port at teams meetings, so there's a challenge.

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/gabriel64869839/status/1658854837180669952?s=61&t=rmEeUn68HhlFHGKbTPQr_A

In case it wasn't clear yet, Chief of the Air Staff again clarifies that the UK Military Flying Training System is delivering what it is contracted to deliver. The problems currently are in the Advanced Phase (and OCUs), and it is the MOD/RAF that is responsible there.

Ascent delivers Advanced Jet Training with HAWK T2 at Valley, but since HAWK was picked ahead of everything else and imposed upon the contractor, it is the MOD that must ensure HAWK is available for N thousand flying hours a year. Right now, due to the engine issue, it just isn't.

This is why some UK pilots are going to get Advanced phase training abroad. A deal in this sense has just been reached with Italy to send 2 pairs, beginning in July, to Decimomannu to train at the new International School. A recovery plan is on the way for the Hawk engines.

​​​​​​​It is also, very probably, the reason why the announced UK role in training Ukrainian pilots is focused specifically on Elementary and Basic training phases. UKMFTS has slots and can take them in, while the Advanced Phase literally could not, at the moment...

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/gabriel64869839/status/1658958987046313986?s=61&t=rmEeUn68HhlFHGKbTPQr_A


According to CAS, planning is in place for up to around 27 british pilots to undergo Advanced jet training abroad. Not all slots might actually be used if HAWK recover profile holds. Current issue greatly reduces life in flying hours of Adour engines, cutting down availability.

​​​​​​​Adour front "half" by Safran, rear is Rolls Royce. Work ongoing to return fleet to 50% availability by end of this year. 14 engines and 11 aircraft available now; will be 18 by september, flatlining there for 2024 when Safran delivers fixed front. Back to normal for early 2025...

[LateArmLive]

It's not just MFTS that's broken, it's most of the UK FJ training pipeline. How embarrassing that we have to send our future F35 pilots to Aus to do their OCU...

[Martin the Martian]

Actually I have found it very difficult to send biscuits via the usb port at teams meetings, so there's a challenge.

Well, there's your problem. With computers you have to use cookies.

[melmothtw]

Interestingly, during the Defence Select Committee meeting earlier in the week, Ellwood suggested that the way to fix UK pilot training is to take Hawk availability and the Advanced Fast Jet Training pipeline out of the hands of the MoD and to include it in the UKMFTS contract with Ascent, and Knighton said this was being considered. Seems to run counter to the thread of opinions as to where the fault lies, as voiced earlier in this discussion.

[[email protected]]

I'm sure that won't be a cheap and easy option......

[Easy Street]

I was pleased to see that ACM Knighton made the point to the Defence Committee, in the subtlest and politest possible way, that the RAF had ended up with the Hawk T2 at ministerial behest. The point definitely landed because (Conservative) Tobias Ellwood jokingly exclaimed in response "ah, I knew it would be Labour's fault!". But it is something to bear in mind about industrial strategies: they don't always deliver the best kit. Obviously there are good reasons to pursue them, but the consequences have to be acknowledged when they occur if we're to be clear sighted about similar decisions in future. [Off topic, but likewise I thought the ACM trod the line very well in making the point that E-7 numbers were a ministerial decision based on budgetary priorities across the three services, and not the RAF's recommendation].

[chinook240]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22382656/raf-helicopter-training-flight-schools-no-students/

[Not_a_boffin]

Interestingly, during the Defence Select Committee meeting earlier in the week, Ellwood suggested that the way to fix UK pilot training is to take Hawk availability and the Advanced Fast Jet Training pipeline out of the hands of the MoD and to include it in the UKMFTS contract with Ascent, and Knighton said this was being considered. Seems to run counter to the thread of opinions as to where the fault lies, as voiced earlier in this discussion.
Which only confirms that he's Nice But Tobias. The Hawks are GFX because Ascent have no control over the OEM or support. That's a massive commercial risk that they have quite rightly backed off onto MoD. Why would Ascent take responsibility for an ageing aircraft with known issues? In their position I'd be saying " if you want us to do that, bring more money, lots more money....."

[[email protected]]

The system at Shawbury, and from what I could see at Valley, wasn't broken and handing over control of everything to Ascent to run (with the exception of the ownership of the aircraft) was just opening the door to contractual abuse.

Only the VSOs seemed to think it was a good idea and didn't question the contract award to the lowest bidder - directorships all round on retirement perhaps?........

[tucumseh]

The Hawks are GFX

Nail on head, especially given the timescale of the MFTS programme initiation.

In the recent past (1996) the Chief of Defence Procurement had expressly forbidden the letting of any contact with a GFX (Government Furnished Information/Equipment/Facilities) clause.

The primary risk on any aircraft programme was that it was no longer MoD policy to maintain airworthiness. Yet item 1 on most contracted GFX Annexes would be 'Quantity x airworthy....'. (#2 is access to UK strategic assets, that only MoD owns. #3 is access to a simulator at the In Use Build Standard, which hasn't been MoD policy since around 1987. And so forth). MoD couldn't, and still can't, demonstrate Hawk was airworthy. While it is permitted (despite the law) to ignore this when telling aircrew to fly the aircraft, it is a blank cheque to the company under contract. CDP was advised of this many times. And was pressed on this very point in March 1999 by the Defence Committee. And admitted it. (So think about what was too embarrassing not to admit).

This edict would have placed MoD in default on ANY aircraft/equipment programme, and was seen as a sneaky way to chop the defence budget. Not by coincidence, at the same time he announced 600 redundancies among technical project managers. And why not? They'd have nothing to do. But at the same time, the same staff were told they must still meet time, cost and performance.

What to do? Ignore CDP or... ignore CDP. Some chose wisely and delivered to TC&P. Others chose... wisely?... and advanced, their only 'achievement' being to follow orders and cancel programmes, or withdraw support leaving the project office to do their work. This especially applied to Service HQs, whose job it is to manage GFX. All the project office does is insert the GFX annex in the contract, and provide a degree of support.

The current situation on UKMFTS can be no surprise, as it will have been #1 risk since inception. The only question was how much would be wasted.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Additional MFTS Contract for rear crew

Possible jobs for retired WSOs near Culdrose

UKMFTS Contract Awarded to Ascent Flight Training | Joint Forces News (joint-forces.com) (https://www.joint-forces.com/uk-news/64727-ukmfts-contract-awarded-to-ascent-flight-training)

[ORAC]

https://warontherocks.com/2023/06/flying-desks-not-planes-the-backlog-in-british-fast-jet-pilot-training/

FLYING DESKS, NOT PLANES: THE BACKLOG IN BRITISH FAST JET PILOT TRAINING

[SLXOwft]

Additional MFTS Contract for rear crew

Possible jobs for retired WSOs near Culdrose

UKMFTS Contract Awarded to Ascent Flight Training | Joint Forces News (joint-forces.com) (https://www.joint-forces.com/uk-news/64727-ukmfts-contract-awarded-to-ascent-flight-training)

So as part of this contract ending in Jul 2026, LM and Draken will upgrade the four current (non-GFX) aircraft used by 750NAS and provide new simulators. Am I wrong in thinking this will reduce the capacity to train Observers and WSOs/WSOps and in being concerned about the refurbs being delivered on schedule?

https://ascentflighttraining.com/125m-contract-supports-key-training-and-local-jobs/

As the aircraft OSD is being pushed back to 2033 (the expiry date of the current UKMFTS contract) I assume the intention is they will be used for the follow on FIRCTS programme - for which Ascent hosted:
' (...) an Industry Day, with a PQQ to follow for procuring Ground Based Training Equipment and Aircraft Service Provision to support the delivery of the future of Mission Aircrew Training at RNAS Culdrose and RAFC Cranwell. Through a long-term private partnership arrangement with the UK MOD, Ascent provide an integrated UK Military Flying Training System supported by the best providers.'

[charliegolf]

There's (rightly) a lot of emphasis on pilot training in the thread, but since wsop training has been mentioned... How long roughly is it taking to get an abo crewman/lady from haircut* to D cat?

*I suspect you're not allowed to march em down to the barber any more but you get my drift.

CG

[The B Word]

There's (rightly) a lot of emphasis on pilot training in the thread, but since wsop training has been mentioned... How long roughly is it taking to get an abo crewman/lady from haircut* to D cat?

*I suspect you're not allowed to march em down to the barber any more but you get my drift.

CG

A “D Cat”? They wen’t out with Noah’s Ark! :E But around a couple of years, maybe 3 for some (the ones going to 51 Sqn) is fairly common. The same for WSOs going to the ISTAR types.

[RAFEngO74to09]

https://twitter.com/RoyalAirForce/status/1667215469877575697

https://raf.mod.uk/news/articles/pilot-training-set-to-boost-with-opening-of-new-building-at-raf-valley/

[Abbey Road]

https://raf.mod.uk/news/articles/pilot-training-set-to-boost-with-opening-of-new-building-at-raf-valley/

The last paragraph of the linked article includes this:

Ascent Flight Training was appointed in 2008 to design and deliver a modern and efficient flying training system by the UK MOD.
Well done AFT! Been taking the money since 2008 and failing to deliver modern or efficient. Delivering bugger all, in fact. AFT truly is a con job.

[Big Pistons Forever]

https://warontherocks.com/2023/06/flying-desks-not-planes-the-backlog-in-british-fast-jet-pilot-training/

FLYING DESKS, NOT PLANES: THE BACKLOG IN BRITISH FAST JET PILOT TRAINING

Funny how there never seems to be enough money to do the job right but there is always money to do the job over.....

[[email protected]]

And we keep believing the Britain doesn't have corruption...........

[SLXOwft]

OPSEC permitting - as far as I understand UKMFTS doesn't include Phase 3 but it appears operational commitments are restricting airframe availability but that is perhaps moot if only 25% of the slots are being used. However, is the availability of F-35 & Typhoon/Hawk T2 for OCU/AFJT having a knock on effect on advanced QFI training? I assume with the relevant exercises occuring there is still an adequate QWI throughput. :confused:

[Not_a_boffin]

OPSEC permitting - as far as I understand UKMFTS doesn't include Phase 3 but it appears operational commitments are restricting airframe availability but that is perhaps moot if only 25% of the slots are being used. However, is the availability of F-35 & Typhoon/Hawk T2 for OCU/AFJT having a knock on effect on advanced QFI training? I assume with the relevant exercises occuring there is still an adequate QWI throughput. :confused:
https://committees.parliament.uk/oralevidence/12649/pdf/

Questions 84-86.....

[SLXOwft]

Thanks N_a_B, rather ironic the service that has traditionally struggled with (FJ) aircrew numbers was at the time providing all but 2 of the F-35 OCU QFIs. So, I was right to be concerned.

Q84 Sarah Atherton: Going back to the F-35, it is taking around 12 years for a QFI to qualify, and all but two in 207 Squadron are Navy not RAF—I will leave that one with you. Have you got enough instructors?

Air Chief Marshal Wigston: It is not just a Lightning challenge; across all our frontline forces it is a constant challenge to grow the instructors. You need people with the skills and experience. Whether that is weapons instructors, flying instructors, helicopter instructors, that is the critical cohort across all our forces, and particularly a force like Lightning, which is in growth. I would say the same for Poseidon and for Protector.

Q85 Sarah Atherton: Have you got American instructors?

Air Marshal Knighton: On squadron, we have three exchanges—an Australian, a US marine corps and a US air force. We have British pilots in their systems as well. We are not specifically using US air force pilots to instruct per se, but we find these exchanges very valuable, because we pick up insights from pilots who come from other countries. Likewise, our pilots are able to give them interesting insights, and then we bring them back into the force.

Air Chief Marshal Wigston: We have industry partners in the simulator—those of you who visited might have seen them—who are also instructing, which again speaks to the enterprise and the working relationship with industry, not only in delivering serviceable aeroplanes but in contributing to generating the trained aircrew.

Q86 Sarah Atherton: How much of a challenge is it when the carrier—singular—goes out and you take instructors from Marham?

Air Chief Marshal Wigston: It is a very good question. This is a critical phase in the growth of the Lightning force. We consciously took a pause in the growth of the force—of the trained pilots and engineers—to make sure that the carrier strike group deployment all the way to Japan in 2021 was a success. We recognised that the price we would pay for that—or one of the things that we would have to accept with that—is that the force growth would level off for that period. Over the past year, however, we have absolutely been able to ramp it up again. This year, two pilots are graduating around about now, and another seven will graduate between now and August. The force is on the way and we will be standing up the second frontline squadron this year.

[Bing]

I'm not sure, 'we had to pause the growth of the force to do the thing it's supposed to do' is a great defence to be honest.

[Davef68]

I'm not sure, 'we had to pause the growth of the force to do the thing it's supposed to do' is a great defence to be honest.

It would be fine if the force it was replacing was still in service and could deal with the operational requirements

[tucumseh]

Related news

"The Ministry of Defence has released a tender notice for the provision of pilot cadet training as part of the Air Cadet Pilot Scholarship Scheme (ACPS)."



https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/ministry-of-defence-invites-tender-for-pilot-cadet-training/

[chevvron]

Related news

"The Ministry of Defence has released a tender notice for the provision of pilot cadet training as part of the Air Cadet Pilot Scholarship Scheme (ACPS)."



https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/ministry-of-defence-invites-tender-for-pilot-cadet-training/
That's only for Air Cadets to train at civilian flying schools and like the original flying scholarships it only provides a limited amount of flying which I see now has been reduced to 12 hours u/t; hardly enough even to go solo whereas it used to be (when I was an ATC Sqdn Cdr) 30 hrs. Originally it was 35 hours which was sufficient to pass the PPL course but while HQAC have cut the hours down, the CAA now requires a minimum of 45 hours to get an EASA PPL or 30 hours to get a UK only Light Aircraft Pilot Licence; microlight only courses are shorter still.

[RAFEngO74to09]

(4) Greg Bagwell on Twitter: "Ever wanted to know the odds of joining the RAF as a pilot? Here’s an FOI that looks at pilot selection over the last decade. https://t.co/DQs28R6QQ9 the key figures are in the copied table below👇.🧵1/4 https://t.co/KlKs9o5zPe" / Twitter

[just another jocky]

(4) Greg Bagwell on Twitter: "Ever wanted to know the odds of joining the RAF as a pilot? Here’s an FOI that looks at pilot selection over the last decade. (https://twitter.com/gregbagwell/status/1687136978041544706)https://t.co/DQs28R6QQ9 the key figures are in the copied table below👇.🧵1/4 https://t.co/KlKs9o5zPe" / Twitter

Linky no visible (it is now) and no worky.

[RAFEngO74to09]

(3) Royal Air Force on Twitter: "The latest cohort of trainees have commenced Advanced Fast Jet Training with 11 Sqn Qatar Emiri Air Force at @RAF_Leeming This course is a mix of Royal Air Force and QEAF trainees, forging important relationships between our respective nations #NoOrdinaryJob https://t.co/ELNgrIANZI" / Twitter

[Ninthace]

RAFEngO If you put your link in a quote, it should be visible to all users. All I am seeing is a blank box - apparently it's a feature of the website

[just another jocky]

RAFEngO If you put your link in a quote, it should be visible to all users. All I am seeing is a blank box - apparently it's a feature of the website
It's also available when you quote the blank post.

[[email protected]]

So the two (useless white:() guys are shoehorned into an existing training contract with Qatar because MFTS just can't do the job properly.........at least they'll be top of the course

[OvertHawk]

And we keep believing the Britain doesn't have corruption...........

Never attribute to corruption that which can adequately be explained by incompetence! ;) :mad:

[Sky Sports]

Following the Sky News expose a couple of years ago, which revealed that it was taking the RAF 7.5 years to train FJ pilots, does anyone have a credible answer to the question...has it improved since then?

[DuckDodgers]

Does the system still have Hawk T2? Here endeth my Ted Talk.

[chopper2004]

Heres a solution (pre April 1st)

- all RW contract out to Buckeburg or Dax would say Mother Rucker / Novosel

- all FJ - contract out to IFTS at Deci

all M/E - contract out to Lufthansa Flight Training

QED with considerable savings to the treasury and have half decent aircrew at the other end

lol

cheers

[Sky Sports]

Anyone know the rough start to finish times for the 3 streams for someone starting MAGS now?

[DuckDodgers]

Heres a solution (pre April 1st)

- all RW contract out to Buckeburg or Dax would say Mother Rucker / Novosel

- all FJ - contract out to IFTS at Deci

all M/E - contract out to Lufthansa Flight Training

QED with considerable savings to the treasury and have half decent aircrew at the other end

lol

cheers

You’ve seen the product out of Rucker/Novosel haven’t you? It’s utter rubbish! Buckeburg? There’s a reason the Bundeswehr are sending them to the U.K. Multi Engine, can’t recall Lufthansa doing tac low level. IFTS saturated and wouldn’t have the room anyway.

Expected better from you, B- please try again.

[RAFEngO74to09]

(2) RAF Cosford on X: "Want to return to Service? Texan T6 Instructor & Hawk T2 QFI opportunities ⬇️ @RAF_Recruitment https://t.co/wV60ubRoMI" / Twitter