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View Full Version : FAA proposes adding a Second Barrier to Cockpit Entrances


SASless
28th Jul 2022, 16:13
The things one reads that makes you just wonder who makes these things up!

The FAA is concerned about unruly Passengers acting up on flights.....aren't we all?

But now the FAA wants to require a Second Barrier to existing Cockpit Entrance Security measures.

What confuses me.....is why would security measures caused by the Terrorist Attacks on 9-11 now be seen as inadequate for unruly passengers?

Am I missing something here?

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/faa-proposes-new-flight-deck-barrier-unruly-passengers-grab-headlines

twb3
28th Jul 2022, 17:04
Have there been any successful cockpit intrusions after the implementation of the post-9/11 cockpit hardening requirements? If the answer is no, this would seem to be a solution in search of a problem.

SMT Member
28th Jul 2022, 17:20
As far as I understand, it’s Congress running out of patience implementing the decision they made quite a few years ago, and which the FAA have pretty much dragged their feet on.

One cannot help being sympathetic to such frustrations, considering the ruling was established in 2018. But it’s been talked about since not long after 9/11, when the hardened doors were made mandatory.

A light-weight secondary barrier is already an option at Boeing and Airbus, including narrow-bodies. They have been installed since 2003, cost is around 5K USD per installation and there are hundreds of aircraft which have been modified.

https://www.alpa.org/advocacy/flight-deck-barriers

PPRuNeUser0154
28th Jul 2022, 18:02
How many people killed to cockpit incursions versus pilots flying deliberately into ground in suicide?
Swings and unfortunate roundabouts.

tdracer
28th Jul 2022, 18:22
So there are looking for something more robust when the pilots need to use the lav than a ~100 pound flight attendant standing in the front trying to look intimidating. I was in First Class on an Alaska Air flight a while back where that was literally the case - a very pretty, young woman flight attendant standing there trying to look mean and intimidating - it was almost comical to see, and I teased the young lady about it a bit later when she brought me fresh drink later :E.

That being said, uxb99 makes a valid point - maybe they're looking at the wrong problem...

ATC Watcher
28th Jul 2022, 18:37
why would security measures caused by the Terrorist Attacks on 9-11 now be seen as inadequate for unruly passengers?
Maybe the idea is to trap the unruly passenger(s) between the 2 doors and leave them there ?:E

TowerDog
28th Jul 2022, 22:26
How about about having lav entry directly from the cockpit, with 2 armed doors: 1 door from the cabin to the lav and 1 door from the cockpit to the lav with remote locking..?

Flyhighfirst
28th Jul 2022, 22:49
Get rid of the armoured doors. Bring back flight deck visits. Seriously how many think we really need armoured doors. I go for a walk front to back a few times. Iím not afraid Iím going to be attacked. Itís something that happened 21 years ago for ch**st sakes. If we keep just increasing security every time something happens, but never take a step back we will end up flying in a bloody mandated armed cockpit with machine guns pointed everywhere.

Iíd rather just have a normal lock and bring back captains discretion to bring people up for a cockpit visit.

How many actually pay anything but lip service to cockpit security nowadays anyways? Not expecting any actual replies to that for obvious reasons.

porterpat
28th Jul 2022, 22:51
UXB99 My thoughts exactly

Telekon
28th Jul 2022, 23:01
I see in that ALPA link they are even calling for an armoured door to be installed on freighters as if the (rarely carried in the first place) horse/livestock courier is going to go postal on you. I mean seriously get a grip...

Sailvi767
28th Jul 2022, 23:10
I see in that ALPA link they are even calling for an armoured door to be installed on freighters as if the (rarely carried in the first place) horse/livestock courier is going to go postal on you. I mean seriously get a grip...

People are often carried on freighters either as part of the charter, employees or jumpseaters. Google FedEx jumpseater tries to crash aircraft.

Telekon
28th Jul 2022, 23:21
People are often carried on freighters either as part of the charter, employees or jumpseaters. Google FedEx jumpseater tries to crash aircraft.

I am aware of the Fedex case and was expecting someone to bring that up. A door would have done nothing to prevent a determined individual, intent on concealing their intentions such as in that case unless you are going to ban the flight crew from using the toilet, galley and bunks while airborne.

SASless
29th Jul 2022, 02:16
In lieu of the second security device....how about a small biz jet combo pax seat/toilet installed in the Jump Seat.....call it the Go Seat?

WideScreen
29th Jul 2022, 05:14
Adding an individual physical barrier over every passenger should nip unruly passengers in the bud Ö and then airlines can keep collecting their share of the excessive alcohols sales in the airports.
Not to say, we don't need the current single armored cockpit door, to keep the regular intoxicated unruly passenger out of the cockpit.

And a potential second door does not need to be more rigorous than being able to withstand a 1-minute banging, to get things cleared in front of that second door.

Sailvi767
30th Jul 2022, 01:23
How many people killed to cockpit incursions versus pilots flying deliberately into ground in suicide?
Swings and unfortunate roundabouts.

In the last 21 years looks like about approximately 3600 deaths from cockpit incursions and 600 from suicidal pilots. If a pilot is in fact suicidal the doors of course are meaningless.

tdracer
30th Jul 2022, 02:54
In the last 21 years looks like about approximately 3600 deaths from cockpit incursions and 600 from suicidal pilots. If a pilot is in fact suicidal the doors of course are meaningless.
Thing is, that 9/11 event 21 years ago is unlikely to be repeated. Not because some terrorists wouldn't try, but because it's highly unlikely to be successful now the people know about the game plan.
Pre 9/11, the thinking was the very worst thing that could happen in a hijacking was for the aircraft to crash. Now we know better.
A future attempt at a 9/11 hijacking is likely to see the terrorists overwhelmed by the rest of the passengers/crew - worst case it turns into another Shanksville. No one is going to obtain flightdeck access by holding a knife at a flight attendant's throat, because the crew on the other side of the door now know something far worse could occur if they open the door.

WideScreen
30th Jul 2022, 03:55
In the last 21 years looks like about approximately 3600 deaths from cockpit incursions and 600 from suicidal pilots. If a pilot is in fact suicidal the doors of course are meaningless.
Yep, and in the past 20 years, 0 deaths due to cockpit incursions and just over 550 deaths from suicidal pilots. And, if MU5735 is indeed suicidal, it shows, even a (fully) occupied cockpit will not prevent deliberate action. Go figure.

The only advantage of a secondary cockpit barrier, I can think of, is that unruly passengers get visually discouraged to even attempt to enter the Door 1 area to be nasty, IE, the "presumed" control stuff is now visually simply out of reach.

SASless
30th Jul 2022, 14:04
And a potential second door does not need to be more rigorous than being able to withstand a 1-minute banging, to get things cleared in front of that second door.

Who is going to do the clearing?

Young Muffy the cute wee thing, Gladys who is 40 pounds overweight and approaching retirement (finally).....or some amateur rugby scrum from the passengers?

Longtimer
30th Jul 2022, 21:03
I wonder how this would work in smaller commercial passenger aircraft? Loss of saleable seats?

WideScreen
31st Jul 2022, 01:09
Who is going to do the clearing?

Young Muffy the cute wee thing, Gladys who is 40 pounds overweight and approaching retirement (finally).....or some amateur rugby scrum from the passengers?
The clearing is no more than getting the cockpit door closed (preferable with the pilot inside the cockpit, though one-person flying would be an option too). The target is to protect the flyability of the airplane.

Tech Guy
24th Aug 2022, 18:46
In lieu of the second security device....how about a small biz jet combo pax seat/toilet installed in the Jump Seat.....call it the Go Seat?
Dump seat sound better. :)

MartinB738
24th Aug 2022, 19:54
Get rid of the armoured doors. Bring back flight deck visits. Seriously how many think we really need armoured doors. I go for a walk front to back a few times. Iím not afraid Iím going to be attacked. Itís something that happened 21 years ago for ch**st sakes. If we keep just increasing security every time something happens, but never take a step back we will end up flying in a bloody mandated armed cockpit with machine guns pointed everywhere.

Iíd rather just have a normal lock and bring back captains discretion to bring people up for a cockpit visit..

That access to the flight deck applied everywhere except the USA / FAA regulated flights of course, prior to 9/11, when everyone stopped it. In the UK and Europe passengers were welcomed into the flight deck and interested ones were often allowed to sit in for the landing. I don't think that was ever allowed in the USA?

MartinB738
24th Aug 2022, 19:57
In the last 21 years looks like about approximately 3600 deaths from cockpit incursions and 600 from suicidal pilots. If a pilot is in fact suicidal the doors of course are meaningless.

But in the last 20 years, it's been about 0 deaths from cockpit incursions and 600 from suicidal pilots. The 3600 were primarily from one tragic incident, 9/11.

Less Hair
25th Aug 2022, 13:08
The Sheat.

albatross
25th Aug 2022, 13:48
A little humour:
https://youtu.be/tWxGKVozHtc