Electric Rex

[Stationair8]

ABC news reporting that Rex, plan to retrofit existing fleet with electric-propulsion engines in regional trials.

Looks like a sharp idea.

[Mach E Avelli]

Great idea. Leave passengers to fossil fuel fools. There is a growing market in battery transport. Though the return sector could be a challenge.

[Capn Bloggs]

Wake up ABC. This, 6 days ago:

https://australianaviation.com.au/2022/07/rex-saabs-could-see-electric-engines-by-2026/

[Icarus2001]

Indeed Bloggs, the ABC article described replacement of the jet engines on the Saab aircraft.

[Capn Bloggs]

Iccy, dems propjets!

[Guptar]

Interesting analasys on electric aircraft. keypoint, with existing tech they won't work.

https://leehamnews.com/2021/07/01/the-true-cost-of-electric-aircraft/

https://leehamnews.com/2021/07/08/the-true-cost-of-electric-aircraft-part-2/

[Feetweet]

You would also need two totally independent battery systems, not just a single battery. A single battery could possibly lead to a double engine failure given a battery system failure.

[Australopithecus]

Currently there isn’t anything with the energy density of fossil fuels, especially jet fuel. Soooo…absent a revolutionary chemistry breakthrough its not going to happen. If it ever does the Saabs will be by then turned into beer cans. Did somebody say beer?

[smogluver]

Can’t wait for the first lightening strike

[Captn Rex Havack]

Let's just say, in 8 years or so, this actually works. How far ahead of the game will Rex be. Sounds like it's not going to cost them much
so its worth a shot. The rewards could be enormous. Not saying it WILL work, - for a start I'd hate to be trying to get this through CASA,
but if it does, other operators will be clawing to get it.

[neville_nobody]

It's never going to happen. Even if they have a miracle and get this to work somehow, good luck getting CASA to take responsibility for certification of something so radical. They make certifying conventional aircraft so difficult a new untested propulsion system for RPT will be impossible. They will not want to take the risk. I don't believe it will even get that far anyway Gas Turbines are too reliable and efficient. All just virtue signalling.

[Captn Rex Havack]

Gday Nev

CASA aside - I will go so far as to say it WILL happen eventually.

My dad many times told me that at some time in the 40s his dad looked at the moon and said man will go there one day. My father laughed at him.
Even now, when I look into the night sky I ponder how the fark does a guy fly to the moon. The world is electric these days - aircraft powered
by electric motors seems infinitely more possible than flying to the moon, than taking a heart of one dead dude and putting it in another person,
than hitting send on an email and have it pop up on a screen on the other side of the planet instantly, hell, even more likely than a 575 tonne A380
getting airborne. Electric engines powering an aircraft seems like a piece of piss in comparison to many achievements of the human race.

[Alfie.floor]

Anyone smell, government grant?

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Electric engines powering an aircraft seems like a piece of piss in comparison to many achievements of the human race.
That's not the point. Electric engines already are powering aircraft. What they can't do, and in all likelihood will never do (using battery storage) is do it economically enough to used commercially. The energy density is lousy, your takeoff weight will always equal your landing weight (unless you have a payload you are dispensing in flight) so no efficiencies to be gained as fuel (weight) is consumed, the time to "refuel" is prohibitive, and the batteries have to go somewhere in the airframe additional to where the fuel tanks might have been, taking up space that should be payload.

Is Rex volunteering one of their 737's? At least then they don't have to worry about the payload hit.

[43Inches]

Battery and motor tech has progressed massively in the last 10 years, the projections on energy vs weight for electric propulsion is through the roof at the moment. This is why there are now many projects developing electric vehicles from trucks and busses to planes and ships. Its only a matter of time before there is a major breakthrough in energy storage that will significantly affect this area. I think it's fairly smart to get in on it in any way. The big issue is that this tech has the ability to completely change transportation especially air travel, as having a large bus sized quad-copter is probably where this will go, not necessarily fixed wing aircraft, except for long range. Rex is probably smart to retrofit the SAABs for another 20-30 years of service life until that next step arrives, rather than buy into super expensive step change vehicles in the interim.

[43Inches]

Got to love that talking about electric technology is some form of leftist argument. Anyway, thinking Hybrids are some form of efficient tech shows no idea of the engineering. The issue you have with a hybrid is that is carries two energy platforms, so they are naturally heavier than either single power platform. More weight and more complexity means more capital cost, maintenance and operational cost. This is why they dropped the idea in trains and ships and went for more direct drive diesels for efficiency or line fed electric. You have to remember Electric propulsion is just the drive, most new hybrids now are pure electric propulsion with its own little combustion engine electric generator and a set of batteries. With battery technology becoming lighter and more energy dense every year we are already at the point where pure electrics are getting close to the traditional range of similar sized petrol vehicles and are almost the same price as the hybrids that are only marginally cheaper to run than the old tech.

Recycling Li batteries is also 100% possible, is it cheap, no. It's the dismantling process that causes the problem mostly as it's time consuming, so most plants just melt it causing other problems. Now that the material costs are going up it is becoming more economic to strip and recover batteries which in turn means reuse of the components for new batteries etc...

As far as Li reserves there's plenty of the stuff, but not enough mining at present. As with oil, as it becomes more viable to mine they will find new reserves and ways to extract it, as it is fairly widespread, just in trace elements everywhere. That being said Li and Ni are not the only forms of battery under development and traditional acid batteries are being refined as well, which can be used for non weight sensitive applications like household and other uses. I mean you can generate electricity from a damn potato so there's a million avenues to research.

[Captain Dart]

So Aer Lingus are looking at spud power for airliners then?

[Australopithecus]

There are a few promising battery designs that are too heavy for vehicles, but would be ideal for a fixed application. That would free up lots of trace metals for mobile application. There are flow battery designs that do not degrade with charging cycles for example.

However, as we all know, flying takes a lot of energy and minimum mass. Flying fast even more so. The real physical limitations of batteries are at odds with payload, speed and range to be practical. I am reminded of the nuclear powered B-36 idea that thankfully was rewarded with a head slap.

[43Inches]

If you didnt have to worry about containment then nuclear is awesome. Problem is people and radiation etc, etc. The debate and technology with regard to nuclear and space is a different matter with protecting the crew and payload the only consideration, not whether a crash will irradiate a town or city.

[Capn Bloggs]

43 inches, you're holding on too tight, you lefty! :O

[PPRuNeUser0198]

https://australianaviation.com.au/2022/07/rex-to-trial-electric-planes-on-short-routes-in-2024/

Rex will trial the use of planes with retrofitted electric engines on short regional flights of under one hour as soon as 2024.

According to the airline’s deputy chairman John Sharp, one of Rex’s 34-seat Saab 340s – retrofitted with an electric and hydrogen-powered MagniX engine – will be used to trial the technology on short routes such as Adelaide-Mount Gambier.

“We will be doing trials in 2024, with a real aircraft, where we’ll swap out the existing engine, which burns jet fuel,” Sharp told the ABC (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-27/rex-airlines-plan-retrofit-aircraft-electric-motors-emissions/101272566). “And we’ll put in an electric motor that will be supported by a combination of both batteries and hydrogen.”

[Australopithecus]

Interesting. I guess the MaginX engine is scalable, but they currently show an 800hp version as their largest. Does anyone here understand the energy losses in hydrogen fuel cells? Is there a practical limit to how large they can be?

[lamax]

Modifying a SAAB to fly lower and slower with less payload and reduced range does not add up to an economical proposition. Development, build and certification costs would also have to be amortized in calculating a profitable short sector fare which would far exceed market acceptance. Short sector routes from capital cities would be impractical with traffic holding and wx. requirements inhibiting utilisation as there is no ability to trade payload for fuel. Add to that limited alternates (ports with charging facilities) and slow turnrounds unless fast charging and or battery change is available would further reduce the aeroplane's ability to meet high frequency high utilisation short sector demand. Alan Joyce is correct, electric powered RPT a/c are decades from reality. Happy to be contradicted by those with experience and qualifications in a/c manufacture certification and regional ops,

[Australopithecus]

At this stage it is virtue signalling, as already suggested. Since Rex is allergic to advertising, this might be a ploy for free press coverage.

Currently it costs about US $1.10/kg of Jet A-1, Hydrogen is about $6/kg. H2 has around 300% more energy/kg, so the delta isn’t that big, and solar will only close the gap. Still not seeing how to build cryo tanks (fuel temp circa -275°). Still not understanding how big the fuel cells have to be to make enough electricity to run at cruise, assuming batteries will provide take-off power.

I am all in on the leftie agenda of reducing the carbon footprint. Just not seeing it for aviation, at least not where almost all the Jet A-1 is consumed.

[The Love Doctor]

At this stage it is virtue signalling, as already suggested. Since Rex is allergic to advertising, this might be a ploy for free press coverage.

H2 has around 300% more energy/kg, so the delta isn’t that big, and solar will only close the gap. Still not seeing how to build cryo tanks (fuel temp circa -275°)..

H2 would be the most logical alternative if the issue of safe easy storage can be solved. Also the small issue of as soon as one explodes Hindenberg style again it will be a hard sell.

[Hamley]

…leftie agenda..

lol you all sound like a bunch of old fossils bemoaning the introduction of steam power. Pointing out basic fundamentals as if they haven’t occurred to the engineers, designers and airline people.

This kind of stuff is probably the future. Keep up or get left behind old codgers!

[Australopithecus]

Hamley, of course I won’t be left behind. Since I am an old codger I'll be dead. But thanks for the pep talk.

[nomorecatering]

Henry Ford had to develop the Model T...........for us to have the Toyota Corolla of today.

I imagine electric airliners will have the same timespan of development.

Research has to start somewhere - but we must ignore wishful timelines.

[Captn Rex Havack]

The doubters here are all arguing based on today's technology. Payload issues, range - who says an electric propulsion system a decade from now will be bulky and heavy, who says it won't come with good range capability. That's what R and D does. Lamax made assumptions based on what's out there now. And he/she is correct - wouldn't work now. And that's why they are not doing it now. But give it time, money, R and D, and it will happen. I might be dead when it does, but I can see it coming.

[Wizofoz]

The doubters here are all arguing based on today's technology. Payload issues, range - who says an electric propulsion system a decade from now will be bulky and heavy, who says it won't come with good range capability. That's what R and D does. Lamax made assumptions based on what's out there now. And he/she is correct - wouldn't work now. And that's why they are not doing it now. But give it time, money, R and D, and it will happen. I might be dead when it does, but I can see it coming.
Unfortunatly there's not much R&D going on toward increasing energy density. Current batteries are fine for what was always going to be the largest market- land vehicles, so the impetus is toward lower cost and faster charging. It would take a step-change in energy density to levels not currently even theoretically possible to make battery powered commercial aircraft practical, and no-one is really working towards it.
Hydrogen, either through fuel cells or by burning it, is a possibility, but as cars aren't headed in that direction, it means an entire infrastructure just for aviation- not going to happen soon.

[Rataxes]

It'll be interesting to see if Rex really has the capital, financial or otherwise, for this sort of adventure. Talk is much cheaper, less risky and still gets headlines.

[josephfeatherweight]

My two cents - this proposal, as it stands, will never get off the ground.

[Deano969]

Unfortunatly there's not much R&D going on toward increasing energy density. Current batteries are fine for what was always going to be the largest market- land vehicles, so the impetus is toward lower cost and faster charging. It would take a step-change in energy density to levels not currently even theoretically possible to make battery powered commercial aircraft practical, and no-one is really working towards it.
Hydrogen, either through fuel cells or by burning it, is a possibility, but as cars aren't headed in that direction, it means an entire infrastructure just for aviation- not going to happen soon.

Cost will drive innovation
They are striving for increased range in electric cars, obviously with the same or smaller batteries, this will have flow on effects for aviation
The cost of a 100kg battery pack for a car verses say 500kg now will likely be less and as they continue to reduce battery weights for cars and trucks, again, this will flow to aviation
You understand that part of the range issue with car and truck batteries (along with aviation) is the weight of the batteries....

[Wizofoz]

Cost will drive innovation
They are striving for increased range in electric cars, obviously with the same or smaller batteries, this will have flow on effects for aviation
The cost of a 100kg battery pack for a car verses say 500kg now will likely be less and as they continue to reduce battery weights for cars and trucks, again, this will flow to aviation
You understand that part of the range issue with car and truck batteries (along with aviation) is the weight of the batteries....
It's what I'm saying- no they aren't. The current range is marketable and a car can carry the 500KG pack and it gives sufficient range to be practical. Yes, a lighter battery would give an incrmental change to range, but not enough to justify increased cost. The biggest research at the moment is into Graphine-metal batteies, which would not have a significantly beter energy dencity, but would be cheaper and much faster to charge,
The technology requirements of road transport and aviation diverge at some point, and that divergence is meaning the research isn't helping aviation.
The simple math is that a 2 tonne car has gone from 60KG of fuel to a 500KG battery- an increase of 20% or so.
An aircraft may have 30% of its TOW as fuel- increase THAT by a fatcor of 8.....

[Tom Sawyer]

No mention anywhere of Saab AB as the Type Certificate holder being onboard with this. This isn't just a case of slapping in a new power plant, but the airframe will require extensive modification to carry the batteries and associated management systems, indeed is the airframe capable of carrying all this? All the airframe load paths will change as the wings, I presume, will be empty if batteries are in the fuselage, so wing to fuselage structure, and undercarriage, will need significant changes as well. Hope the parties concerned have plenty experience around Supplementary Type Certificate management, or would this get to the point where the differences would need a new Type Certificate?

[No Idea Either]

I reckon it would be a new type certificate Tom. The changes will not be minor/immaterial or insignificant. They will be huge, as you have pointed out. Can’t see it happening personally. The only way to accommodate the batteries is to design it from the ground up.

[Captn Rex Havack]

Couldnt even be like when they tried to put turbines on the old Caribou - un fixable C of G issues. Had to rebuild the airframe and call it a buffalo.

[KRviator]

The doubters here are all arguing based on today's technology. Payload issues, range - who says an electric propulsion system a decade from now will be bulky and heavy, who says it won't come with good range capability. That's what R and D does. Lamax made assumptions based on what's out there now. And he/she is correct - wouldn't work now. And that's why they are not doing it now. But give it time, money, R and D, and it will happen. I might be dead when it does, but I can see it coming.In 1903 we had the first powered flight. In 1969 man walked on the moon. Just 66 years later.

Rio Tinto and FMG are buying battery-electric locomotives right now as a trial and assuming the batteries themselves work (the core loco electrics are well-proven), can see them being particularly successful given the vertical profile of the track there, and while there's not a significant weight constraint in that application, the research and ongoing development is what will translate across to aviation uses. Even in heavy-rail use, a lighter battery means more can be carried for a given axle-load, increasing either range or available traction power, so there is most definitely an incentive for GE or EMD to continue their own R&D.

[AussieAviator]

The FA's on my flights say that their worst nightmare is a mobile phone battery exploding and creating a small intense fire. Imagine sitting on top of 10 tons of batteries!! https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/eviation-alice-fire-involved-lithium-ion-batteries-which-ignited-after-hours-of-powerplant-tests/141228.article

[Cloudee]

The FA's on my flights say that their worst nightmare is a mobile phone battery exploding and creating a small intense fire. Imagine sitting on top of 10 tons of batteries!! https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/eviation-alice-fire-involved-lithium-ion-batteries-which-ignited-after-hours-of-powerplant-tests/141228.article

Yeah, I feel much safer sitting on 10 tons of kerosene.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/678x452/69b179ff_3e37_4043_9453_9523d8d6d530_826895635458affc8b93abf 449b41f02dd105ab7.jpeg

[43Inches]

Well designed batteries can be slung so that if they catch fire they can detach from the aircraft and fall on someone below. Anyhow a lot of commercial aircraft have been using NiCad which can suffer thermal runaway for years. They have a protection circuit to prevent overheat. As said before wading through tons of kerosene is far more dangerous following a crash than flash battery fires. Almost all cabin fires are from batteries that have been tampered with or broken/crushed, so have been compromised in their own thermal protection, which is why now they say to leave dropped phones and wait for an FA to come and search for it, lest you crush it and cause a fire.

In anycase first trial flights are supposed to be in under 2 years, so we will see soon if its realistic or not. In regard to SAAB and the TC, they will explore anything and help with certification, for a fee, lots of modifications have been done to SAABs, including airframe modifications and so on. Pretty sure SAAB would be heavily involved from a consulting point of view, you just have to read SAABs site regarding regional aircraft where they advertise how they will provide technical assistance for operators.

[Jack D. Ripper]

Electrifying a SAAB, surely akin to lipstick on a pig.

Why on gods green would you invest in a new power plant for a 30 year old airframe?

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

In 1903 we had the first powered flight. In 1969 man walked on the moon. Just 66 years later.
Two world wars and a political situation drove that. Without a decent war, or an ideology race, tech hasn't really progressed that fast since. We had pistons, turbines and rockets in 1945, we've still using them 77 years later. There is no pressing need for a massive technological leap. It's just incremental.
so there is most definitely an incentive for GE or EMD to continue their own R&D.
“Looking to the future,” Wabtec says it plans to “accelerate the shift to alternative clean energy solutions, through zero-emission hydrogen-powered locomotives.”

Their future is not with batteries.

[josephfeatherweight]

Electrifying a SAAB, surely akin to lipstick on a pig.

Why on gods green would you invest in a new power plant for a 30 year old airframe?

This. It’s surely a publicity stunt. If it can be done (which it can’t yet), you’re not going to do it on a Saab.

[illusion]

There is an enormous amount of research going into this area. At the REX level one might be uncharitable and consider the possibility that the announcement is nothing more than a precursor to a government handout disguised as a research grant.
One would hope that with the change of government the chances are some what diminished of this occurring.

[43Inches]

Zeroavia is about to test fly it's first DO-228 testbed, within the next few months. It has Hydrogen fuel cell on one side and normal combustion on the other for test purposes. You can look it up, most modification is in the engine nacelles, so no massive fuselage or airframe tweaking as suggested here, then there's the electronic side of things to manage the system. They are partnered with Bombardier and PWC to have a viable power system for the Q400 by 2025 or so. Both the SAAB and Q400 share large nacelle space for this technology and I assume some sort of tanks/batteries can be fitted where original fuel tanks were instead of AVTUR, or simply in the rear of the nacelles. Spreading batteries out through the wings would not be difficult either, which would aid cooling, and ability to bomb out through the lower surface of the wing should they meltdown, this would avoid ZFW issues with fuselage mounted stuff. If smart you could run the heat dissipation through the leading edges to assist deicing.

I do feel though that the major issue is more going to be pressurisation and de-icing in flight as some form of air pump/compressor will be needed obviously as it lacks bleed air systems. That being said there's some pretty neat low voltage kinetic deice systems that work without heating required, Russians have been using it for years (They hold the patent to it so the US has avoid it in favor of traditional boots).

[Gne]

Did we miss these : https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-14/rolls-royce-sees-fully-electric-plane-as-soon-as-in-three-years
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-60068786

Gne

[Icarus2001]

Thank you for the links, I found these quotes illuminating...

That range will keep improving with better battery technology, and may eventually be able to fly as much as 400 kilometers (250 miles) in the 2030s,

The aircraft uses a 400kW electric powertrain - the equivalent of a 535 BHP supercar.

I agree that progress will be made but the SAAB airframes will be out of service before the technology is available to electrify them.

[Australopithecus]

So the article linked quotes Rolls Royce as saying electric may, in the 2030’s, be able to power an 8 seater over a 400km journey. That's the reality of energy density.

[kingRB]

The part that concerns me with these delusions of grandeur is how increasingly institutions and corporations believe these lies (once repeated enough) - and just start instituting the "technology" and policies anyway - just like we've seen Western Governments removing baseload power generation all around the world.
The technology is not sufficient to replace what got us here in the first place - but that doesn't seem to matter anymore. Prices rise and first world reliability is falling. Is the same ESG madness that's taking over the world going to apply to transport category aviation now? Hope not. Prices rising is one thing, reliability when it comes to safety is another.

[Wizofoz]

“Looking to the future,” Wabtec says it plans to “accelerate the shift to alternative clean energy solutions, through zero-emission hydrogen-powered locomotives.”

Their future is not with batteries.

But near as we have it, the PRESENT is batteries. We're a good way down the path of rolling out electric vehicle infrastructue, which is not suprising given that it piggybacks off of the existing grid. There are applications (aviation being an obvious one) where hydrogen is definatlry a bettr fit- but you have to bear the set up costs which are enourmous, and so many applications will stick with what is rather than with what could be.

[Icarus2001]

We're a good way down the path of rolling out electric vehicle infrastructue I completely disagree. There is no plan on even how to supply all the required electricty let alone where to put the charging stations. All those inner city units and houses with no driveway let alone a garage. Where do they plug in? Multi storey car parks in the city, who pays for the MASSIVE cost of charging stations and how do they power them with an "ageing grid"?

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/10/30/reality-check-on-the-electric-car/

[Wizofoz]

I completely disagree. There is no plan on even how to supply all the required electricty let alone where to put the charging stations. All those inner city units and houses with no driveway let alone a garage. Where do they plug in? Multi storey car parks in the city, who pays for the MASSIVE cost of charging stations and how do they power them with an "ageing grid"?

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/10/30/reality-check-on-the-electric-car/

Sure, but there IS an electricity grid- that's a lot further down the road than hydrogen.

[Icarus2001]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/500x354/43898dd2_b6c8_4c8f_ae93_ebec3ff4ef15_b68f54eb48496b5f490f5e5 8e08b7b321c14eaec.jpeg
That would be location specific.

[Wizofoz]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/500x354/43898dd2_b6c8_4c8f_ae93_ebec3ff4ef15_b68f54eb48496b5f490f5e5 8e08b7b321c14eaec.jpeg
That would be location specific.
Now show a map of every electrical outlet in Europe...

[Australopithecus]

We ordered an electric car and figure to power it from our solar panels at home almost exclusively. My neighbours won’t let me set up my own H2 facility

[43Inches]

This H2 argument is ridiculous. H2 vehicles are electric vehicles that carry around their own generator powered by H2... So there is only very basic difference between one that carries around stored electrical energy in batteries or stored electrical energy in H2 tanks. Vastly different to a hybrid electric that has a petrol drive and electric drive combination. So you can easily make both vehicles and have the fuel source variation as the engine drive is identical. Its not even as complicated as diesel vs petrol as both cars have the same drive system, an electric engine or engines. H2 fuel cells just have better weight to range profile and faster charging at present. I mean H2 power is really just a 'battery' of H2 instead of lithium or whatever holds a charge. The big issue is that leakage of H2 has to be controlled in a way that it vents to the atmosphere readily and does not build up anywhere. But seriously, we've had LPG cars for ages and although the odd random explosion did occur it was not that dangerous.

A hybrid fuel source of batteries and H2 fuel cells is also a possibility, and that is what most airliner designs seem to be aiming for at the moment.

[Foxxster]

I heard him being interviewed on the radio last night or the night before.

a few points.

they are doing this in conjunction with Sydney seaplanes at rose bay who are going to convert one of their aircraft as a test.

it is NOT a Saab that Rex will be converting initially but a King Air 200. It will be done in Wagga. Initially one engine will be swapped then it it works they will swap the second. Not sure if they intend to extend it to the Saab fleet but I imagine it will take years as they need casa certification on the king air first then would need to repeat the process on the Saab.

given there are similar sized aircraft to the king air being built specifically as electric planes in the pipeline I am not sure what the point is. Although I don’t think those are using hydrogen to recharge the batteries inflight as Rex want to.

they see this being used on flights up to around one hour flight time.

anyway. I am not sure of the economics of it. Seems a fizzer to me.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

but you have to bear the set up costs which are enormous, and so many applications will stick with what is rather than with what could be.
And in such a thin margin business as aviation, that's why we still have pistons and turbines after 3 quarters of a century. Efficiencies you gain are traded off selling the resultant product off cheaper to remain competitive. Thin margins are not going to change.

[Rataxes]

Couldnt even be like when they tried to put turbines on the old Caribou - un fixable C of G issues. Had to rebuild the airframe and call it a buffalo.
In fact the re-engined, PT6-equiooed Caribou flew perfectly well, could carry more cargo and was FAA-certified. I guess they had smart, qualified people working on the re-design. Shame it didn't 'take off.'

[punkalouver]

lol you all sound like a bunch of old fossils bemoaning the introduction of steam power. Pointing out basic fundamentals as if they haven’t occurred to the engineers, designers and airline people.

This kind of stuff is probably the future. Keep up or get left behind old codgers!
Tecnam pauses P-Volt on battery concerns Italian airframer Tecnam has paused development of its all-electric P-Volt aircraft citing a lack of certainty around improvements in battery performance to deliver a “viable” product.

Launched in 2020 in partnership with propulsion supplier Rolls-Royce, the P-Volt was an all-electric version of the company’s popular P2022 Traveller. It was due to enter service in 2026 with Norwegian regional carrier Wideroe.

Wideroe hoped the nine-seat P-Volt could enter service in 2026

However, the Capua, Naples-based manufacturer says that after “three years of intensive studies” covering the whole lifecycle of an all-electric aircraft, it does not believe that battery technology has advanced sufficiently to make the project viable.

Tecnam says it was striving to deliver an aircraft that could be operated “profitably, sustainably and efficiently” against typical airline metrics, and with a clear time to market.

“At present, Tecnam believes that these can only be achieved by extremely aggressive speculation on uncertain technology developments,” it says.

Analysis of energy storage solutions and their development path over the next five years, “excluding technological revolutions that no one can speculate on”, led the airframer to conclude that from investment perspective “an aircraft with a battery pack at the end of its life would not be the best product for the market, but certainly the worst”.

Likely battery performance degradation would see aircraft range quickly reduced “after a few weeks of operation” and would not offer a solution towards the decarbonisation of aviation.

It predicts that the storage capacity of cells would quickly fall below 170Wh/kg, leading operators to “replace the entire storage unit” after “only a few hundred flights” leading to a “dramatic increase in direct operating costs”.

On that basis, the development of a new all-electric aircraft for service entry in the 2026-2028 period that could deliver against CO2, operating cost and profitability metrics would not be “viable”, Tecnam says.

Preliminary specifications released by Tecnam in 2021 said the P-Volt would be able to fly routes of 85nm (160km) using “today’s technology”, rising to 145nm by 2030, compared with 950nm for the piston-powered P2012. Other performance figures were also lower than the baseline aircraft: useful load was 810kg (1,790lb) against 1,410kg, while cruise speed was 120kt (222km/h) versus 173kt.

Chief R&D officer Fabio Russo – who has previously been highly critical of the promises made by other developers of all-electric aircraft – says that the company does not feel pressured to bring a product to market by 2026.

“It has always been our culture to commit to achievable goals with customers and operators, and we intend to keep that promise.

“We hope that new technologies will make businesses viable sooner rather than later, and we have real confidence in our partners’ ability to bring highly valuable products to the zero-emission powertrain and energy storage arena.”

But Tecnam will continue its research activities in the space “ready to bring the P-Volt back into the type certification arena as soon as technology evolution allows.”

Tecnam does not disclose the impact of the decision on its relationship with Rolls-Royce or Wideroe, although Russo adds: ”We are extremely proud to keep working with every company that is developing new technologies for aviation and with every airline that is willing to participate [in the process]… without aggressive time-to-market speculation.”

[Lead Balloon]

Gawd, next thing they’ll be telling us is that Vertiports are an ICAO-driven boondoggle.

[White and Fluffy]

Might be related to this:

https://www.drones.gov.au/policies-and-programs/emerging-aviation-technology-partnerships-program/round-two-grant-opportunity-now-open-applications

Magnix get $2 Mil to develop the engine tech.

Rex get $2 Mil to install and conduct trials on a King Air.

And guess what its based at Wagga so it meets the regional requirements.

So the Government might be footing the bill for this experiment.

[nomorecatering]

I don't understand why people are getting so hot under the collar over this. Research is going to have to be done "now", for people in 100 years to benefit. That's how science works. I imagine Daimler or Rudolf diesel were told these new fangled machines will never replace the horse. Will electric aviation happen, of course it will. But it's going to take 50, 100 or maybe 200 years. It will take as long as it takes, and it starts with projects like this, and others that have been talked about. There will be no fleet of electric SAABS silently whizzing around in our life time, but we have to start somewhere.

[43Inches]

I don't understand why people are getting so hot under the collar over this. Research is going to have to be done "now", for people in 100 years to benefit. That's how science works. I imagine Daimler or Rudolf diesel were told these new fangled machines will never replace the horse. Will electric aviation happen, of course it will. But it's going to take 50, 100 or maybe 200 years. It will take as long as it takes, and it starts with projects like this, and others that have been talked about. There will be no fleet of electric SAABS silently whizzing around in our life time, but we have to start somewhere.

Have they made a silent propeller? 90% of the SAABs noise comes from the prop/gearbox and associated vibration. It's funny how much quieter the Metros are with the new props.

[TimmyTee]

There will be no fleet of electric SAABS silently whizzing around in our life time, but we have to start somewhere.

By spending cash with the goal of retrofitting SAABs...

[airdualbleedfault]

As there are a lot of sheep on this thread that have been green/brainwashed and probably drive around with their noses in the air in their electric POS, I won't go into the whole thing about rare earth mining damaging the planet, charging batteries on a week of cloudy days etc etc etc but I will say 2 things.
EVs are bloody heavy due to the battery, so don't know how that translates to aviation, as someone mentioned you won't be able to take off above landing weight.
Secondly, just think about who is pushing battery power... Governments and billionaires..........

[Hoosten]

Saw a meme on the interthingy, bumper sticker on a tesla: "Proudly Powered By QLD Coal"