Tempest II due to fly at Eastbourne in August

[Fargo Boyle]

Unflown Hawker Tempest slated to perform at Airbourne 2022 - This is Flight (http://thisisflight.net/2022/07/05/unflown-hawker-tempest-slated-to-perform-at-airbourne-2022/)

After many false starts, we could finally see an airworthy Tempest in the UK this year! If it's anything like the other Richard Grace restorations it's going to be a beauty...

[treadigraph]

I'll be seriously tempted :) to take a trip down to Eastbourne for that...

I haven't seen anything about it having flown yet and I know it has been very close for quite a while... if anyone can make it happen...

[GeeRam]

How long before the engine fails I wonder.....given the oil issue.

[ej200man]

How long before the engine fails I wonder.....given the oil issue.

Oddly enough that was exactly what went through my mind, let's hope not. :sad:

[uxb99]

Someone posted on Facebook regarding Centaurus engines and mentioned the original engine oil was made from fish.
Now I took that with a pinch of salt but wanted to ask if there is any truth to the story, maybe not literally but did the oil for the Centaurus contain a quantity of fish oil? Was there something unusual about that particular type of oil?
Whenever I mention the oil for the Napier Sabre that also seems to result in a lot of blank looks.
So can the Centaurus and Sabre be safely flown with modern oils?

[stevef]

Someone posted on Facebook regarding Centaurus engines and mentioned the original engine oil was made from fish.
Now I took that with a pinch of salt but wanted to ask if there is any truth to the story, maybe not literally but did the oil for the Centaurus contain a quantity of fish oil? Was there something unusual about that particular type of oil?
Whenever I mention the oil for the Napier Sabre that also seems to result in a lot of blank looks.
So can the Centaurus and Sabre be safely flown with modern oils?

I've never heard of any engine lubricatiion system using a fish oil additive (not saying some didn't) but Air Atlantique's two DC6s (R2800 engines) definitely had a low percentage fish oil mix in their ADI tanks rather than conventional (60/40?) water methanol.
Edited post: I can't remember if the fish oil was for lubrication or anti-corrosion purposes.

[GeeRam]

Someone posted on Facebook regarding Centaurus engines and mentioned the original engine oil was made from fish.
Now I took that with a pinch of salt but wanted to ask if there is any truth to the story, maybe not literally but did the oil for the Centaurus contain a quantity of fish oil? Was there something unusual about that particular type of oil?
Whenever I mention the oil for the Napier Sabre that also seems to result in a lot of blank looks.
So can the Centaurus and Sabre be safely flown with modern oils?

Never heard of the fish thing!
I doubt it's true.

RR didn't seem to think the Centaurus could be safely flown on anything but the original oil type, and the last person left at RR with responsibility for it prior to his retirement in the early 80's was critical of the civvie warbird industry at the time, when he tried to get them to band together to order another batch from Shell while they could.
I think the fact that they are increasingly have the RR predicted engine issues in subsequent years is proof of that.
The recent AAIB report of the Navy Wings loss of the T.20 hints at the oil issue.
Most US aircraft have been converted to US engines now, so there really are very few people still risking running the Centaurus. If you're lucky it will fail while on the ground but that's some risk. I'm surprised any sensible pilot even considers flying one now given the oil issue.

[uxb99]

I've never heard of any engine lubricatiion system using a fish oil additive (not saying some didn't) but Air Atlantique's two DC6s (R2800 engines) definitely had a low percentage fish oil mix in their ADI tanks rather than conventional (60/40?) water methanol.
Edited post: I can't remember if the fish oil was for lubrication or anti-corrosion purposes.
Interesting. Just goes to show most rumours have an element of truth to them.

[DaveReidUK]

So can the Centaurus and Sabre be safely flown with modern oils?
I suspect there may be rather different lubrication considerations for the two engines (sleeve-valve radial vs inline).

[chevvron]

In my younger days we used to drain the mineral oil out of our Honda 50 and refill (after flushing) wirh Castrol 'R'.
Didn't go any faster but the smell was fantastic!!

[Allan Lupton]

I suspect there may be rather different lubrication considerations for the two engines (sleeve-valve radial vs inline).
Both sleeve valve but air-cooled vs liquid-cooled may make a difference.

[longer ron]

I suspect there may be rather different lubrication considerations for the two engines (sleeve-valve radial vs inline).

Both engines are Engineering Madness though with far too many little cogs/sprockets etc just waiting to graunch up and ruin your day,and that is without even thinking of any potential sleeve valve related issues.

[treadigraph]

Somewhat ironic that over the last 40 years or so there have been at least five Sea Fury accidents in Europe resulting from a Centaurus failure, yet there have been many more R2800/R3350 powered warbirds (Corsair/Skyraider/Hellcat/Bearcat/Tigercat/P-47/A-26) flying over here during that time without a single powerplant-related accident that I can think of, yet almost as soon as the UK sticks an R2800 in a Sea Fury, the engine blows a raspberry...

[Jhieminga]

Something I would be interested in is the number of hours flown by Centaurii over the past decade or so without a failure. There are a number of them around that are still in fine working order, or appear to be. Although not the same engine type, the Noratlas in France is still flying on two sleeve-valve radials. It would be interesting to see their engine data and experiences over the years.

[GeeRam]

Something I would be interested in is the number of hours flown by Centaurii over the past decade or so without a failure. There are a number of them around that are still in fine working order, or appear to be. Although not the same engine type, the Noratlas in France is still flying on two sleeve-valve radials. It would be interesting to see their engine data and experiences over the years.

Actually there's not so many Centaurus now flying compared with say 15+ years ago....and they are getting fewer.

The Noratlas doesn't use the Centaurus, it uses a licence built Hercules. The oil issue is specific to the Centaurus design, not all sleeve valve radials.

[Fargo Boyle]

While I understand the concerns, Richard Grace/Air Leasing have been maintaining and operating a Centaurus Fury safely for a number of years (G-CEBL) so have a lot of experience and expertise.
Having said that, the Tempest II being restored in Canada is going to be powered by a P&W R2800. (And it will share a hangar with an airworthy Mosquito B35!)

[GeeRam]

While I understand the concerns, Richard Grace/Air Leasing have been maintaining and operating a Centaurus Fury safely for a number of years (G-CEBL) so have a lot of experience and expertise.

Engine built by the same place as the Navy Wings T.20 (and this Tempest II, and any other Centaurus built in the UK as they are the only company doing it)......and all the expertise in the world (and there was quite a bit knocking around at Yeovilton from RNHF days) doesn't make up for using the wrong oil that the engine has not been designed for.
Graham Peacock has spent a lot of money on his warbird fleet, with Air Leasing and Weald Aviation over the years.

[Kemble Pitts]

Apart from cost (TBD) is there any technical reason why a new batch of the correct oil can't be cooked up today?

[GeeRam]

Apart from cost (TBD) is there any technical reason why a new batch of the correct oil can't be cooked up today?

No.
But, the cost (and subsequent storage for lots of years) is the issue, as the minimum quantity Shell will consider doing it is considerable.

[GeeRam]

While I understand the concerns, Richard Grace/Air Leasing have been maintaining and operating a Centaurus Fury safely for a number of years (G-CEBL) so have a lot of experience and expertise.


And in a recent-ish interview, Richard stated that when flying/displaying Graham Peacock's Fury, he's checking the oil pressure gauge every 30secs.....

[uxb99]

Actually there's not so many Centaurus now flying compared with say 15+ years ago....and they are getting fewer.

The Noratlas doesn't use the Centaurus, it uses a licence built Hercules. The oil issue is specific to the Centaurus design, not all sleeve valve radials.

Could the Noratlas engines be used in, say, um, a Beaufighter? :-)

[treadigraph]

Not the right mark unfortunately, I think they have looked at it though. There was, I thought, a solution at hand but I've not heard what, if any, recent progress there has been...

[uxb99]

Not the right mark unfortunately, I think they have looked at it though. There was, I thought, a solution at hand but I've not heard what, if any, recent progress there has been...
Very frustrating but hope to see it fly one day. I remember seeing it arrive all mangled in boxes. Concerned I may be mangled and in a box before it does.

[fab777]

In my younger days we used to drain the mineral oil out of our Honda 50 and refill (after flushing) wirh Castrol 'R'.
Didn't go any faster but the smell was fantastic!!

but the smell of large quantities of fish oil?

[Fargo Boyle]

Not the right mark unfortunately, I think they have looked at it though. There was, I thought, a solution at hand but I've not heard what, if any, recent progress there has been...

There may be good news...
Beaufighter Engine Restorations – June 2022 | Warbirds Online (https://www.warbirdsonline.com.au/2022/07/16/beaufighter-engine-restorations-june-2022/)
A UK airshow line-up of Mosquito, Typhoon, Tempest and Beaufighter is possible if current projects come to fruition.

[DHfan]

but the smell of large quantities of fish oil?

Made from castor beans. Nothing to do with fish.

[DHfan]

Not the right mark unfortunately, I think they have looked at it though. There was, I thought, a solution at hand but I've not heard what, if any, recent progress there has been...

I can't remember now if I was speaking to one of the TFC engineers or read about the engine problem.
Later marks of Hercules could be potentially available but the differences were so huge it wasn't practical.

Another problem was they only had three flight-suitable wheels and tyres, although that was some years ago.

[treadigraph]

Has the Tempest flown? Not heard anything anywhere else and I see the Sparrows are doing their thing off Eastbourne as I type...

[GeeRam]

Has the Tempest flown? Not heard anything anywhere else and I see the Sparrows are doing their thing off Eastbourne as I type...

I was so no, not yet.
It would have been all over various forum, especially WIX, if it had, so I would say the chances of it appearing at Eastbourne are not great.

[treadigraph]

Yes, it would have been remarkable if they'd kept it THAT quiet... Didn't risk the trip to Eastbourne by train today with strikes either side.

[Fournierf5]

Yes, it would have been remarkable if they'd kept it THAT quiet... Didn't risk the trip to Eastbourne by train today with strikes either side.


Right at this moment the only 'tempest' I'd like to see, is one that would severely refresh my garden . . . [and Croydon ] of course!

[treadigraph]

Not sure about a tempest, Fournier, but a right good sprinkling would be good.

[India Four Two]

Later marks of Hercules could be potentially available but the differences were so huge it wasn't practical.

I'm intrigued. What were the issues?

[treadigraph]

I'd forgotten about this:

Beaufighter Engine Restoration News | Warbirds Online (http://www.warbirdsonline.com.au/2019/06/10/beaufighter-engine-restoration-news/)

https://warbirdsnews.com/warbirds-news/bristol-beaufighter-hercules-engine-restoration-update-june-2022.htmlWarbirds Online follows on from our previous news on the rebuild of Bristol Hercules engines by Peter Brooke at Historical Aircraft Engines in Brisbane Queensland for the Bristol Beaufighter project of the Historical Aircraft Restoration Society (HARS) and Robert Grienert’s Historical Aircraft Restorations Limited. The major decision has now been made as to the version of Hercules to be rebuilt, being the series XVII Bristol Hercules from later series Beaufighters.

Since our last visit to Historical Aircraft Engines there has been considerable progress and an audit and examination of the 16 tons of spare parts acquired last year from New Zealand has confirmed the viability of the rebuilding of the initial early series XVII Bristol Hercules required for the HARS project as well as two engines for a European project. There is also future capacity for the rebuild of other engines as well as care and maintenance support for the 4 being rebuilt now.

[uxb99]

Are the problems with the Hercules the same as for the Centaurus i.e. oil and sleeve valves?

[DHfan]

Re oil. #15. Apparently not. Centaurus specific.

I'm intrigued. What were the issues?

It was years ago. I think it was to to do with the location of ancillaries rather than the basic engine core but I wouldn't take bets on it after all this time.
I'm pretty certain it meant a degree of re-engineering, rather than just tweaking something to make it fit.

[treadigraph]

My memory is that re-engineering would certainly have been required with all that would entail to satisfy the CAA.

[DHfan]

Both engines are Engineering Madness though with far too many little cogs/sprockets etc just waiting to graunch up and ruin your day,and that is without even thinking of any potential sleeve valve related issues.

Actually, they were engineering masterpieces.
As the Sabre stayed in service until the middle 50s and the Centaurus until the late 60s, and was certified for civil use, they can't have been that bad.

[DaveReidUK]

It may be just me, but when I hear the term "engineering masterpiece" in relation to an aircraft or engine, alarm bells start to ring ...

[uxb99]

It may be just me, but when I hear the term "engineering masterpiece" in relation to an aircraft or engine, alarm bells start to ring ...
Merlin?

[cooperplace]

Do I recall correctly that the Merlin never achieved civilian certification?

[DHfan]

No, you don't.
Avro York, Avro Tudor, Canadair North Star...
I assume Haltons and Lancastrians were on the civil register too.

[chevvron]

No, you don't.
Avro York, Avro Tudor, Canadair North Star...
I assume Haltons and Lancastrians were on the civil register too.
Haltons weren't Merlin engined.but Argonauts were.

[treadigraph]

Re civvy Merlins, from Wikipedia...

With the end of the war, work on improving Merlin power output was halted and the development effort was concentrated on civil derivatives of the Merlin.[22] Development of what became the "Transport Merlin" (TML)[23] commenced with the Merlin 102 (the first Merlin to complete the new civil type-test requirements) and was aimed at improving reliability and service overhaul periods for airline operators using airliner and transport aircraft such as the Avro Lancastrian, Avro York (Merlin 500-series), Avro Tudor II & IV (Merlin 621), Tudor IVB & V (Merlin 623), TCA Canadair North Star (Merlin 724) and BOAC Argonaut (Merlin 724-IC).[24] By 1951 the time between overhauls (TBO) was typically 650–800 hours depending on use.[25][26] By then single-stage engines had accumulated 2,615,000 engine hours in civil operation, and two-stage engines 1,169,000.[27]

I seem to recall that "transport banks" were favoured for the race-prepared Merlins at Reno as they had much better longevity - allied with Allison con rods which had the same stroke as the RR parts but seemed better suited to the abuse!

[Fargo Boyle]

In the absence of news about the Sywell Tempest, an update on the P&W powered Canadian aircraft

www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_O156N8a54&t=35s

[uxb99]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/577x432/6rwfkk_6f2a05e150f66532a307ca33ed855060f6210462.jpg

[DHfan]

What mind?

[Pypard]

Hurricane is just a Spitfire; your go...

[Nige321]

Is a Tempest with a P&W still a Tempest...?

[Jhieminga]

A handicapped Tempest?

I still want to see it fly, no matter whether there's a P&W or a Bristol in there.