Civilian Buyer of RAF Neatishead Wants To Get Type 84 Radar Working

[RAFEngO74to09]

Might be a job opportunity for any retired ground radar techs living in the area - possibly former fighter contoller / ABM as well !

This story made it onto TV in the USA.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-10985157/Hunt-UFOs-Millionaire-asks-public-newly-purchased-Cold-War-era-radar-system.html

https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7ba9x/a-tech-millionaire-bought-a-giant-cold-war-radar-to-find-ufos

[Finningley Boy]

I understand he wants to hunt for Spaceships, UFOs and the like.

Best wishes,

FB

[NutLoose]

The way things are going, perhaps detecting incoming nukes again might be a better idea.

[MAINJAFAD]

Might be a job opportunity for any retired ground radar techs living in the area - possibly former fighter contoller / ABM as well !

This story made it onto TV in the USA.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-10985157/Hunt-UFOs-Millionaire-asks-public-newly-purchased-Cold-War-era-radar-system.html

https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7ba9x/a-tech-millionaire-bought-a-giant-cold-war-radar-to-find-ufos

First operational Radar I ever got inside of while doing the Pre Employment visit to operational sites during Trade Training in early 1985. When I was in the rotating cabin under the scanner, watching the North Norfolk landscape going around at 4 RPM out of the entrance, I noted that all of the tree tops (single trees and woods) seemed to be the same height. Having looked over a wood out of the bedroom window for the last 18 years, I thought that was a bit odd. 20 odd years later, I'm based at Tidytoliet and doing a bit of volunteer work at the Museum there. I get talking to one of the visitors and he mentions that he was a Tree Surgeon and he had noted that something in the area had been stunting the growth of the trees for some reason for between the mid 1960s and had then for some reason had stopped in the early 1990's. I told him it was most likely the Type 85 Radar based at Neatishead, cooking the tops of them. They had to put special filters in this thing when it was first built as it jammed the local ITV television stations when it was first operated. The Turning Gear bearings for it was still under formal RAF maintenance when I left the place in 2007. All of the timing, modulators, transmitters, receivers, signal processing and displays for it were ripped out in the early to mid 1990's when IUKADGE became operational.

[Sideshow Bob]

I seam to remember being told that Neatishead's R12 had a crack down it after someone thought it would be a good idea to try and put the antenna into sector scan (well that was the rumour I was told when based at Staxton)

[ORAC]

Ahh - the T85 60 degree sector scan….

T84 turntable bearings….


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1274/9ece6672_e06e_4593_8885_ff3553e524a3_4c7053ca140d6e005f687a0 800eeb6c370a7caed.jpeg

[SLXOwft]

Would turning on the T84 interfere with the operations of RRH Trimingham?

What would Auntie Joan think ...

[Wrathmonk]

Would turning on the T84 interfere with the operations of RRH Trimingham?

What would Auntie Joan think ...

According to the local rag (Eastern Daily Press) the “golf ball” at Trimingham is being relocated to Neatishead by the end of 2023 due to threats of coastal erosion.

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/local-council/trimingham-golf-ball-radar-to-be-moved-9120878

[chevvron]

I thought the main radars for Neatishead were near Cromer and the T84 was just put there as a museum piece.

[ORAC]

No, both the T84 and T85 were based on the Ops site and fed directly into the R30 Ops block. Remote radar sites only started coming back in with the e introduction of the T90 and T91 radars in the 1980s - necessitating the use of a DPAVC* to convert their digital output to analogue in order to interface with the current consoles until UKADGE came on-line.

Which is another story of vanishing blips and data buffer overloads…

*Digital Plot to Analogue Video Converter.

[MAINJAFAD]

No, both the T84 and T85 were based on the Ops site and fed directly into the R30 Ops block. Remote radar sites only started coming back in with the e introduction of the T90 and T91 radars in the 1980s - necessitating the use of a DPAVC* to convert their digital output to analogue in order to interface with the current consoles until UKADGE came on-line.

Which is another story of vanishing blips and data buffer overloads…

*Digital Plot to Analogue Video Converter.

Yet another story of UK Air Defence System computers not being good enough to do the job. I saw DPAVC getting installed at Bishops Court in mid 1990. Never saw it work as they closed the base before it was commissioned (Plus the Type 93 there was always U/S). I would love to know how they intend to get a TPS-177 into the remaining site at Neatishead.

Still remember Duncan Campbell's program about British Air Defence Computer screw ups.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HBCPKgnrpM

[MPN11]

Ah, the happy days at Eastern Rader, having the T84/T85 fed to us from Neat by microwave links. Oh, God, that 4 rpm was nerve-wracking when doing hectic ATC stuff over E. Anglia. Our 8 rpm Orange Yeoman T82 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMES_Type_82) was much nicer to work with!

Under normal Ops, a few consoles had 'double-headed displays', with the T82 in the lower position and the Neat radar of the day on a separate display above it (eg. Console 6A, right end of front row]. If the T82 went Pete Tong, everyone could select the T84/T85 feed ... and sweat in between sweeps of the antenna!


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1527/eastern_radar_4_ca02ed2530c345339ea762887ebe3cbec3aebea6.jpe g

[MAINJAFAD]

Ah, the happy days at Eastern Rader, having the T84/T85 fed to us from Neat by microwave links. Oh, God, that 4 rpm was nerve-wracking when doing hectic ATC stuff over E. Anglia. Our 8 rpm Orange Yeoman T82 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMES_Type_82) was much nicer to work with!

Under normal Ops, a few consoles had 'double-headed displays', with the T82 in the lower position and the Neat radar of the day on a separate display above it (eg. Console 6A, right end of front row]. If the T82 went Pete Tong, everyone could select the T84/T85 feed ... and sweat in between sweeps of the antenna!


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1527/eastern_radar_4_ca02ed2530c345339ea762887ebe3cbec3aebea6.jpe g

The radar video links into the Type 82 sites were originally part of the Bloodhound Mk 1 Tactical Control Set Up. Watton had the option of getting radar feeds from Trimingham, Neatishead and Bawdsey. The microwave links between Bawdsey and Watton were done via a Relay site near Eye in Suffolk, The Trimingham link was via Neatishead. The video chain then extended out of Watton to North Luffenham via relays at Downham Market and Crowland in Lincolnshire. Lindholme got a remote picture from Pattrington via a Relay in North Lincolnshire (most likely at Kirton in Lindsey). North Coates got it direct. from Pattrington. The whole lot wasn't operational for very long as the links were switched off in August 1962 as they were found to be "Technically Insecure". In fact the Type 82 was the only bit of Bloodhound Mk 1 that gave value for money as they were all operational until 1970 or later (The North Coates one being used for Bloodhound Mk 2 Trials support by 25 Squadron, along with some modified Type 83's).

[MPN11]

And No. 293 Sqn’s Bloodhound site gave me and few mates some dry-footed rough shooting in the 70s!

When did Eastern Radar finally expire, and move to LATCC and then Swanwick? I could have been ERD’/Watton’s last CO, but AOC MATO black-balled me as “I had a serving wife who could not fulfil the duties of an independent Unit’s CO’s spouse.” Ah, the Flower Arranging and Wives’s Club. Those were the days! Never forgotten or forgiven!!

[MAINJAFAD]

And No. 293 Sqn’s Bloodhound site gave me and few mates some dry-footed rough shooting in the 70s!

When did Eastern Radar finally expire, and move to LATCC and then Swanwick? I could have been ERD’/Watton’s last CO, but AOC MATO black-balled me as “I had a serving wife who could not fulfil the duties of an independent Unit’s CO’s spouse.” Ah, the Flower Arranging and Wives’s Club. Those were the days! Never forgotten or forgiven!!

The Type 82 was still there in 1981 and Luffenham's one was still going in 1983. Watton was still going in 1992/93 as some of our guys at Ty-Croes were detached there for some reason to cover our airspace when the Type 94 was down for extended servicing.

[Sideshow Bob]

The Type 82 was still there in 1981 and Luffenham's one was still going in 1983. Watton was still going in 1992/93 as some of our guys at Ty-Croes were detached there for some reason to cover our airspace when the Type 94 was down for extended servicing.
I wasn't aware that any AR-3Ds were operational in the UK?

[Tartiflette Fan]

I visited the Royal Air Force Air Defence Radar Museum at Neatishead last month and found it very interesting indeed. There were presentations made during the visit by operators who had served there and explained the workings as well as a few anecdotes. One of these concerned a Soviet intelligence-gathering trawler off NW Scotland which was selected for a "roasting" for some reason. The power was turned right up and "aimed" at this ship and, supposedly, burnt out all electronic equipment. This rather puzzled me because AFAIK radar is line-of-sight and there are certainly a good few hills between low-lying Neatishead and the coast of NW Scotland and also wouldn't all this immense electronic power be destroying a swathe of electronic equipment across Britain. I asked the presenters about this and got no coherent answer.

Can anyone here tell me if this was true and/or possible, or simply a canteen story spun to anybody not in the know to amuse/impress them ?

[MAINJAFAD]

I wasn't aware that any AR-3Ds were operational in the UK?

The RAF had 5 convoys in total. Unicorn rig at Gatow doing Air Traffic and other stuff. Two in the Falklands at Byron Heights (Penguin 2) and Cape Orford / Mount Alice (Penguin 1) and two in the UK. A Technical training system at RAF Locking and the Panicle Convoy of 144SU at RAF Wattisham. The Wattisham convoy was Transportable (all of the cabins were on trailers) and it was suppose to be a Standby SOC for Sector South with an extra display and comms cabins.It did had data link capability to take plot data from SLEWC or pass its plot data into somewhere like Neatishead. The extra display cabin only had synthetic displays (which the Scopes didn't like) and there was no way of controlling the plots going in and out of the data link (i never saw it used or know of anybody who did see it in operation). Wattisham also did pre employment scopie training for the Type 94's on the Falklands, as well as 3rd line engineering support. It was deployed for a few exercises and did a long term deployment to Portreath in 1990/91 to cover for Portreath's T91 which was at Boulmer, while their T91 was recovered from major damage to the Spine caused by a Lightning strike. The Radar was to have gone to Cyprus to replace the T84 at 280SU, but when Bishops Court was shut in 1990, the radar was deployed to the old Army Ty-Croes missile firing range near Valley in July 91. The Radar was suppose to stay there until a IUKADGE reporting post, communication sites and Type 93 radar could be installed there (one of the T93 Convoys did get a 144SU Designate number plate). One of the Consoles (No 2) was removed from the Processing and Display Cabin and a Remote Input Terminal feeding track data into SLEWC at Neatishead was installed in its place. The extra cabins went to Locking to be broken down for spares. Ty-Croes was a full CRP, it had control facilities and controllers on the LUE who spent most of the time doing Air to Air Training for Mirror Image at 4FTS. The unit was shut down in December 1995, when remote Air to Air IUKADGE radios were installed at Valley and the NATS primary radar data could be fed into the IUKADGE. The Radar went to Locking and like the Unicorn rig ripped out of Gatow in the early 1990's was broken up for spares or used for technical training. The T94's were withdrawn from service in 1998/99. Byron's one was removed in 1998, Locking and Alice were switched off in April / May 1999.

[ORAC]

Can anyone here tell me if this was true and/or possible, or simply a canteen story spun to anybody not in the know to amuse/impress them ?
A load, as they say, of borrocks..

However, as an addendum.

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/250765-mod-admit-zapping-cars.html#post2943619

[MAINJAFAD]

A load, as they say, of borrocks..

However, as an addendum.

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/250765-mod-admit-zapping-cars.html#post2943619

Yep, the Trimingham Car Killer. The radar had a bunch of duff phase shifters on the Antenna. These were used to set the initial angle that the radio energy left the antenna (the radar used a frequency modulated pulse that changed the angle of the beam from low down to high up during the duration of the pulse, which was tens of microseconds long. Basically this was the same as light refracting through a change in medium, change the wavelength (colour) leads to a change in angle). When the radar had the high power option fitted to it (removed sometime between 2001 and 2004) There had been a six monthly check of the Antenna with a thermal imaging camera. If any of the phase shifters were unserviceable, they got very hot and this could be seen on the photo. They would then have to be replaced. The Engineering Authority though in low power mode, the phase shifters would never fail, so the camera check was removed from the scheduled maintenance. Because a lot of the phase shifters were not working correctly, a lot of energy was going into the ground instead of into the air.

[MAINJAFAD]

I visited the Royal Air Force Air Defence Radar Museum at Neatishead last month and found it very interesting indeed. There were presentations made during the visit by operators who had served there and explained the workings as well as a few anecdotes. One of these concerned a Soviet intelligence-gathering trawler off NW Scotland which was selected for a "roasting" for some reason. The power was turned right up and "aimed" at this ship and, supposedly, burnt out all electronic equipment. This rather puzzled me because AFAIK radar is line-of-sight and there are certainly a good few hills between low-lying Neatishead and the coast of NW Scotland and also wouldn't all this immense electronic power be destroying a swathe of electronic equipment across Britain. I asked the presenters about this and got no coherent answer.

Can anyone here tell me if this was true and/or possible, or simply a canteen story spun to anybody not in the know to amuse/impress them ?

Could have been Benbecula, but wouldn't have been the Type 92. Type 89 height finder was based there with a Type 88 Search radar.up to the late 1980's (The former AD-11 / AD-12 radars used for Thunderbird II SAM tactical control). Type 89 could be aimed at things and transmit without the thing nodding.

[chevvron]

Could have been Benbecula, but wouldn't have been the Type 92. Type 89 height finder was based there with a Type 88 Search radar.up to the late 1980's (The former AD-11 / AD-12 radars used for Thunderbird II SAM tactical control). Type 89 could be aimed at things and transmit without the thing nodding.
I visited Benbecula in 1977 in an aircraft from RAE Farnborough. Why we went there I don't know (possibly something to do with the rocket range) but I did see what I believe to have been the mobile T88 on the north side of the airfield but I don't recall the height finder radar..

[Finningley Boy]

East Anglia used to bristle with GCI stations, all fully manned and self-contained, some now RRHs. Trimingham, Bawdsey, Wartling, Neatishead and some I'm sure I can't recall. I spent a few nights in Bawdsey Manor back in Feb 1987, or there abouts, during an exercise. The old R3 housed the SADOC (Standby Air Defence Operations Centre),

FB

[MAINJAFAD]

I visited Benbecula in 1977 in an aircraft from RAE Farnborough. Why we went there I don't know (possibly something to do with the rocket range) but I did see what I believe to have been the mobile T88 on the north side of the airfield but I don't recall the height finder radar..

There was a T89 there, confirmed by I guy I know who served there. I would have been very surprised if there hadn't been.

[Myrtle Meads]

While stationed at RAF Boulmer in March 1962 I was sent on detachment to RAF Bawdsey to work with Marconi on the trials of the Type84 before the RAF took it over.

[chevvron]

Lindholme got a remote picture from Pattrington via a Relay in North Lincolnshire (most likely at Kirton in Lindsey). North Coates got it direct. from Pattrington.
When I was at Lindholme in '73, the microwave link operated from Staxton Wold's T84 or 85 via a relay north of the Humber then to Elsham Wold and Lindholme; this was in mid '73 and prior to that the Patrington T80 was routed via Elsham Wold too.

[MAINJAFAD]

When I was at Lindholme in '73, the microwave link operated from Staxton Wold's T84 or 85 via a relay north of the Humber then to Elsham Wold and Lindholme; this was in mid '73 and prior to that the Patrington T80 was routed possibly via Elsham Wold too.

I only knew the routing's of the Links from the SAM Wing HQ's F540's because they did the maintenance on them. 21 Wing HQ never recorded the location of their Relays. There was a map showing the locations of the link relays on one of North Coates Trials Wing documents, but it didn't name any of the sites on the map, thus I knew there was a relay located in that neck of the woods.

[MPN11]

Eastern Radar, 70-73 and 76-79 [about 7 years] and never knew the detail of how we got the picture. Just glad it was there when we needed it! Grateful to the engineers and clever people! :ok:

[chevvron]

East Anglia used to bristle with GCI stations, all fully manned and self-contained, some now RRHs. Trimingham, Bawdsey, Wartling, Neatishead and some I'm sure I can't recall. I spent a few nights in Bawdsey Manor back in Feb 1987, or there abouts, during an exercise. The old R3 housed the SADOC (Standby Air Defence Operations Centre),

FB
You missed Ash which was used by NATS for ATC purposes as well as for air defence.

[ORAC]

Ash was, of course, refurbished as a IUKADGE bunker, as the standby southern SOC, and used as the OCU.

Never used operationally for anything, else then sold off afterwards. Totally hardening the bunker and installing the kit must have cost billions - so the company which bought it as a hardened data storage site got a real bargain.

I can vaguely remember attending the course, can’t remember where we were accommodated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Ash

[Wensleydale]

Ash was, of course, refurbished as a IUKADGE bunker, as the standby southern SOC, and used as the OCU.

Never used operationally for anything, else then sold off afterwards. Totally hardening the bunker and installing the kit must have cost billions - so the company which bought it as a hardened data storage site got a real bargain.

I can vaguely remember attending the course, can’t remember where we were accommodated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Ash

Was it at Bentley Priory? Back in the mid 80s I was working on the Nimrod AEW project with frequent weekly deployments to the GEC factory at Radlett. We were accommodated at Bentley, but had to move out because of an influx of ground environment types who were posted in for Ash. Sadly this meant that we had to transfer to a nice cheap B&B in St Albans together with London rate ones.....

[chevvron]

Ash was, of course, refurbished as a IUKADGE bunker, as the standby southern SOC, and used as the OCU.

Never used operationally for anything, else then sold off afterwards. Totally hardening the bunker and installing the kit must have cost billions - so the company which bought it as a hardened data storage site got a real bargain.

I can vaguely remember attending the course, can’t remember where we were accommodated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Ash
I did easter ATC camp at Manston in 1988 and there was a guy living in the mess there who said he was 're-opening' Ash.
NATS (or rather NATCS) were using the radar feeding it to West Drayton during the period I was there '69 to '72 as a remote feed for traffic east-west along the airway between Brussels/Amsterdam and London.

[chevvron]

There was a T89 there, confirmed by I guy I know who served there. I would have been very surprised if there hadn't been.
I don't doubt it; I'm only an ATC man and don't know too much about Air Defence radar systems; my only experience of height finders was with the T82 at Lindholme which of course had a built in height finding capability.

[WB627]

I can vaguely remember attending the course, can’t remember where we were accommodated.

RAF Manston I suspect. If so was it after about 1989 when the new Officers Mess was opened?

[ORAC]

Posted to Neatishead from Boulmer in Oct 91, so would have done the OCU middle of that year prior to arrival.

[chevvron]

RAF Manston I suspect. If so was it after about 1989 when the new Officers Mess was opened?
No as I said, there was a guy in the mess at Manston in 1988 who said he was working at Ash but the mess was very small; I was given a bungalow across the road to sleep in..

[WB627]

No as I said, there was a guy in the mess at Manston in 1988 who said he was working at Ash but the mess was very small; I was given a bungalow across the road to sleep in..

That would have been before the new Mess was built; I joined Costain in 1988 and one of my projects as Area Planning Manager, was the new Mess which was under construction. The old Officers Mess was originally the Station Commanders residence and would have been quite small by comparison to an operational station. Between 1970 and 1975 I used to enjoy Sunday Lunch in the Mess with my Dad, who was a pilot with 1 AEF from it's formation in 1958 at Biggin Hill and at Manston from 1963. Sadly, when the new mess was opened, the old one was demolished, such a shame, it was such a wonderful old building.

Sorry bit of thread drift there.

[radar101]

I did the IUKADGE Foundation Course at Ash in September 1991 - we were all in the new Mess at Manston.

[Tartiflette Fan]

While stationed at RAF Boulmer in March 1962 I was sent on detachment to RAF Bawdsey to work with Marconi on the trials of the Type84 before the RAF took it over.

Gosh. He must have been knocking on a bit then. Was he still up for going out for a beer after work ?

[Myrtle Meads]

Yes he was, and very good company!

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

When did Eastern Radar finally expire, and move to LATCC and then Swanwick?

That would have been 1988, MPN11. I was Ops 3A at HQ MATO at the time and part of my remit was the (long-delayed) move of ERD from the stone age to the brave new world of digital radar displays, SIRS, BEGs, CERDs, plasma input devices and a telephone system that BT wouldn't give a 'green circle' to, so it couldn't be connected to the national system! Due to the inertia built up over the many postponed attempts to effect the move, I had the 'delight' of having a conversation with, the then, OC ERD that went along the lines of: "I don't care what the history of the project is, Sir, but you will be operating from West Drayton in 6 weeks time; and the AOC wants your Op and Admin Orders for the move on his desk for ratification by the end of the week. This IS happening this time - trust me!"

Up to that point the East North East Project had been under the 'Never gonna happen' banner and precisely nothing - but nothing - had been put in train to effect the move!! Oh My - did the effluent hit the rotating machinery at Watton thereafter; I understand much midnight oil was burned.......

[MPN11]

Thanks, DML ... having dragged out my P2 box-file that all fits. Nigel went to be OC ERD, and I took over from him as MR1 at NATS [despite being completely unqualified for the post!]. I was really pissed off, as I was the most experienced ERD wg cdr in the circuit ... over 7 years there, man and boy over 2 tours, from fg off to sqn ldr Senior Sup and OC Trg Sqn. But AOC MATO pulled the strings, as I noted up-thread, so that was that. The start of my deep disillisionment with the Branch! Still, at least as MR1 I gave you the CATCS VISSIM, even if I was never invited to the opening!