Penzance Heliport under new management

[Channel Flyer]

The Sloane Helicopters operated Penzance Helicopter service to the UK Scilly Isles is now in the transition period to the new operator. Unfortunately the new operator cannot be named officially just yet.
Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to who they may be???
Rumour has it that the service was haemorrhaging cash with the 139 and it’s initial problems.
Good luck to the new owners.

[lowfat]

Sloanes is an operator, The owner is still the same just removing a under performing operator ( I know its not all their fault)...

[luckyrat]

Hopefully it will be BRITISH INTERNATIONAL HELICOPTERS when they bring the S61n’s back from the Falklands

[lowfat]

Hopefully it will be BRITISH INTERNATIONAL HELICOPTERS when they bring the S61n’s back from the Falklands
Not going to happen , Bristow have bought BIH
https://www.bristowgroup.com/news-media/press-releases/detail/503/bristow-group-to-acquire-british-international-helicopter

Anh Bristow wont be interested in the bucket and spade brigade to the Scillies...

[FloaterNorthWest]

My money would be on Castle Air.

[luckyrat]

Not going to happen , Bristow have bought BIH
https://www.bristowgroup.com/news-media/press-releases/detail/503/bristow-group-to-acquire-british-international-helicopter

Anh Bristow wont be interested in the bucket and spade brigade to the Scillies...
I’m fully aware of that having just retired from BIH after 32 years.

Bristow will not want the S61 in the Falklands. The BIH operation was an outstanding provider on that route for longer than any other commercial helicopter operator, and with the right people could be flying that route again, with the type of helicopter the passengers loved.

[Brexoff]

My guess is they’ll pack up for winter and start a fresh next spring (or not at all)

[heli1]

Could be Castle Air ,who use AW139 or maybe the Island Steamship Company??

[POBJOY]

The Simple truth is Costs are rising more than fare prices can cope with. having had the mega problem of a new service set up then Covid, with only a small seating capacity that limits earnings I do not think the service stood a chance. Post Covid what is needed is a larger capacity machine that replicates the original BEA/BA/ BIH service and could move 30 at a time. Then there is the 'Issue' of whether it is a truly a Scilly Isles service or a Tresco operation. There is no doubt that the original S61 operation put Scillies on the tourist map and provided a very regular service, however whether it ever really paid its way is debateable. I well remember the times when Penzance had two machines operating flat out with the S61 and the smaller Wesland, and at the same time up to 5 Islanders were also nipping back and forth from Lands End (St Just) plus Plymouth and Exeter,plus the odd Brymon Otter. Since then the Lands End operation has seen large cost increases, and still has to cope with an 'interesting' weather situation, and the Penzance operation must be expensive for the numbers being moved. Of course it is not just the actual flying costs for both operators but the supporting services for dedicated fire and rescue plus at Lands End a lic ATC. The Isles of Scilly has managed to attract enough trade in the past, but the reality of the true cost of operating nowadays is going to be very challenging for the future, and a new faster sea link has been planned to try and attract passengers back to the surface option.
EB still 'hauling' across the pond (now there is a thought) specially modded with hull doors for quick baggage loading, strange colour now.

[snips]

Could be SAS they did a helicopter service for the Steamship company a few years ago and should be out of any "no compete" clause.

[Channel Flyer]

My money is on Starspeed. Good luck to them.

[[email protected]]

Weather is the big factor with the mainland to Scillies transfer - Lands End is up on a hill and Penzance has no instrument approach at the mainland end and at St Marys you can't get below 860' QNH on the RNP approaches to an airfield that is 357' amsl.

Tresco at SL would be better but there are no instrument procedures there.

Advection fog is the big enemy in the SW. Holding div fuel just means fewer pax and less revenue.

[POBJOY]

Weather is the big factor with the mainland to Scillies transfer - Lands End is up on a hill and Penzance has no instrument approach at the mainland end and at St Marys you can't get below 860' QNH on the RNP approaches to an airfield that is 357' amsl.
Tresco at SL would be better but there are no instrument procedures there.
Advection fog is the big enemy in the SW. Holding div fuel just means fewer pax and less revenue.

Both St Marys and PZ used to have an NDB. L-End (400ft) had the Cot Valley and red & white telephone poles for the Rapides !!!
St Marys (116ft) and Tresco PZ (sea level) were not usually the problem and the S61 had a suitable Radar to help. I seem to recall that an NDB app got you down to 600 ft on Scilly so no point in going above 500 on a transit if it was marginal. L-End is not suitable for serious instrument approaches due terrain and lack of approach lighting. The new GPS approaches do not get you down soon enough to see the field in time to land if marginal. BEA could not leave L/End soon enough when the sea level factor and S61 became available. The 'bus like' regular and reliable service this offered changed the way people looked at air travel to Scilly and it certainly set the standards for a 'transport system' coping with the local weather conditions. EB had been designed for quick turnarounds and RR refuelling but was always reliant for Culdrose or St Mawgan for a diversion.

[[email protected]]

My mistake about St Mary's elevation, should be 121' amsl.

Both St Marys and PZ used to have an NDB. L-End (400ft) had the Cot Valley and red & white telephone poles for the Rapides !!!
St Marys (116ft) and Tresco PZ (sea level) were not usually the problem and the S61 had a suitable Radar to help. I seem to recall that an NDB app got you down to 600 ft on Scilly so no point in going above 500 on a transit if it was marginal. L-End is not suitable for serious instrument approaches due terrain and lack of approach lighting. The new GPS approaches do not get you down soon enough to see the field in time to land if marginal. BEA could not leave L/End soon enough when the sea level factor and S61 became available. The 'bus like' regular and reliable service this offered changed the way people looked at air travel to Scilly and it certainly set the standards for a 'transport system' coping with the local weather conditions. EB had been designed for quick turnarounds and RR refuelling but was always reliant for Culdrose or St Mawgan for a diversion. Self positioning internal radar letdowns to the Scillies just wouldn't be approved for CAT, the NDB is ancient technology with a high MDA and the advection fog often persists at low levels meaning it is next to impossible to 'snurgle' underneath. Culdrose and St Mawgan have poor weather records. What used to happen with the S-61 won't be repeated - have you forgotten the 1983 crash by the S-61 trying to scud run?

[hargreaves99]

It doesn't appear that any operator can make a Scilly Isles service work anymore. Probably due to the increased operating costs of modern twins, increased regulation, the weather, and the seasonal nature of the passenger demand.

[POBJOY]

My mistake about St Mary's elevation, should be 121' amsl.

Self positioning internal radar letdowns to the Scillies just wouldn't be approved for CAT, the NDB is ancient technology with a high MDA and the advection fog often persists at low levels meaning it is next to impossible to 'snurgle' underneath. Culdrose and St Mawgan have poor weather records. What used to happen with the S-61 won't be repeated - have you forgotten the 1983 crash by the S-61 trying to scud run?

My points were both confirmation of AF elevations and highlighting that despite 50 years of tech advance nothing has changed. L-end still gets socked in when PZ is flyable, and even PZ is subject to more stringent rules as the surrounding land has been developed. The regrettable 83 incident was in actual fog not low cloud and even that is complicated on the Islands when half the AF can be clamped and the other half clear. The Helicopter service will always win over fixed wing but will it be affordable !!!!

[[email protected]]

Agreed H99 - you need a high capacity helicopter to make it viable and they are invariably expensive.

I flew back from there in 2020 in the Sloane 109 and it was already the most expensive commercial flight per mile in the UK, circa £250 for 28 miles. we went out by jet boat as the weather was poor, even in the middle of August.

If they can replace the Scillonian ferry with something faster and less puke-making, that would be the solution.

It's a shame because the 15 min transit in a helicopter is definitely the way to do it.

[luckyrat]

As I’ve just been forced to retire at 65, and thanks to a government of thieves who are not paying my state pension for another 12 months, I find myself short of cash and with time to spare.
I’m still fit, and have my own pick and shovel. How about we get a team together and dig a tunnel?
It’s not much further than the Channel one, and a sit down job afterwards raking in the cash collecting the fares 😹

[[email protected]]

Luckrat - given the amount of mining in Cornwall over the years, there might even be one half dug for you to finish:)

[Northernstar]

PRESS RELEASE - Starspeed helicopter services wins tender to the Isles of Scilly.

Starspeed Ltd, one of the largest VIP helicopter operators worldwide and registered since 1978 as a helicopter company, is proud to announce that it will take over operations of the Penzance Helicopters service to the Isles of Scilly in the very South-West of the United Kingdom, in winter 2022, replacing current operator Sloane Helicopters.

The decision to award the contract was based on the group’s reliability and state-of the art expertise to handle VIP services. Dr Simon Mitchell, Managing Director of Starspeed Ltd, said: “We’re extremely proud to bring our resources, knowledge and experience to this important route between Penzance and the Isles of Scilly. Our unrivalled reputation for safety, service and individual attention – as well as our professional and friendly culture – will help grow Penzance Helicopters to the benefit of the whole Isles of Scilly community.”

Penzance Helicopters flies to the islands of Tresco and St Mary’s on the Isles of Scilly throughout the year from a purpose-built heliport on the outskirts of Penzance. Since it launched, the service has carried over 50,000 passengers, increasing travel capacity, resilience and ease to the islands.

Robert Dorrien-Smith of Penzance Heliport Ltd said: “I’m delighted to welcome Starspeed onboard as the new operator for Penzance Helicopters from this autumn. “With their knowledge, expertise and attitude, we will deliver on our ambition to enhance the resilience, reliability and capacity of travel to the Isles of Scilly for visitors and islanders alike.”

Starspeed was founded in 1978 and has a proud 45-year history of helicopter operations as the largest, privately owned, corporate VIP helicopter company in Europe. In its history, the company has operated over 22 types and models of helicopters across more than 65 countries. It will start operations to the Isles of Scilly in November 2022.


"Our unrivalled reputation for safety...."
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6114dd1c8fa8f53dcaedea22/Sikorsky_S-92A_G-LAWX_08-21.pdf

[Brutal]

Ha ha ha....I love it Northernstar.

I read the report? HOLY CRAP. What a professional organisation? When will onshore VIP be brought into the 21st century regarding procedures /Crm/ Threat and error management, crews working together and standardised call etc? We've had the aircraft with a pop star on board who just missed the terrain, we've had the Haughey crash, and how many other nearly's have there been?

Can you take me to Battersea heliport please? Actually, on second thoughts, I'll take the car!!!!!

B.

[ShyTorque]

Which just goes to illustrate the point that an average fixed wing pilot is terrified at the thought of having to operate in the way that the average helicopter pilot has to on a routine basis.

[hargreaves99]

and how many other nearly's have there been?

Here's five just off the top of my head:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/548abc96ed915d4c0d0002a3/S4-2012_Sikorsky_S-76C_G-WIWI_11-12.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422f5d7ed915d1374000581/3-2014_G-CRST.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422eb27ed915d137400005d/Agusta_A109A_II__N2NR_11-11.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/56162ac0e5274a625100000f/Agusta_Westland_AW139_G-LBAL_10-15.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422f8a640f0b61346000755/AS355F2_Twin_Squirrel__G-BYPA_11-08.pdf

[ApolloHeli]

Here's five just off the top of my head:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/548abc96ed915d4c0d0002a3/S4-2012_Sikorsky_S-76C_G-WIWI_11-12.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422f5d7ed915d1374000581/3-2014_G-CRST.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422eb27ed915d137400005d/Agusta_A109A_II__N2NR_11-11.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/56162ac0e5274a625100000f/Agusta_Westland_AW139_G-LBAL_10-15.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422f8a640f0b61346000755/AS355F2_Twin_Squirrel__G-BYPA_11-08.pdf

Haven't re-read the report to refresh my memory yet but off the top of my head I seem to recall that N2NR wasn't commercial pressure so much as an unanswered mystery of why a highly experienced pilot flew IMC below MSA and ended up flying into the side of a hill. I fell like it's a bit of an odd one out of the ones mentioned

[hargreaves99]

Well, I think we all know there are more "close calls" on the onshore world that never get reported. Despite all these incidents the uk onshore world is full of crews "winging it" and poling around with an IR but have no real proper IMC experience of two-crew operations.

[ShyTorque]

Haven't re-read the report to refresh my memory yet but off the top of my head I seem to recall that N2NR wasn't commercial pressure so much as an unanswered mystery of why a highly experienced pilot flew IMC below MSA and ended up flying into the side of a hill. I fell like it's a bit of an odd one out of the ones mentioned


I can only think that one was a proverbial “brain fart”.

[[email protected]]

Good luck to Starspeed but I think they will have the same issues as Sloane - providing a guaranteed service is next to impossible with the vagaries of the weather down there.

If you can offer a quick alternative solution - I was offered and took the option outbound of a Jet boat that came across from Tresco - then at least your customers get there but that relies on a decent sea state.

Until there are instrument approaches at each end with sub-100' minima I think there will continue to be delays and cancellations leading to unhappy customers.

Back to luckyrat's tunnel methinks......

[Brexoff]

Looks like Starspeed have gone for a 9 seat S-76 as their choice of chopper

[heli14]

Looks like Starspeed have gone for a 9 seat S-76 as their choice of chopper

I'd be surprised if they are operating it as 9 pax (8 in the cabin + 1 next to pilot) on a scheduled service unless they've found a way to move the duals! Recruitment post for engineers on Linkedin indicates a second S76 coming in early 2023, don't know if they plan to run two at the same time or if the 2nd is a maintenance back up.

[212man]

Looks like Starspeed have gone for a 9 seat S-76 as their choice of chopper
S76 rotors running with large volumes of lay public on a daily basis - what could possibly go wrong?

[all_mod_cons]

I'd be surprised if they are operating it as 9 pax (8 in the cabin + 1 next to pilot) on a scheduled service unless they've found a way to move the duals! Recruitment post for engineers on Linkedin indicates a second S76 coming in early 2023, don't know if they plan to run two at the same time or if the 2nd is a maintenance back up.
I'd suggest you need more than two if you are trying offer one all the time.

[OvertHawk]

I'd be surprised if they are operating it as 9 pax (8 in the cabin + 1 next to pilot) on a scheduled service unless they've found a way to move the duals! Recruitment post for engineers on Linkedin indicates a second S76 coming in early 2023, don't know if they plan to run two at the same time or if the 2nd is a maintenance back up.

There are high density pax cabin configurations for the 76 that would allow 9 (or more) pax in the cabin plus two pilots.

Agree with 212 that rotors running turnarounds of the general public on an S-76 are a higher risk level than I'd be comfortable to accept.

It was bad enough with trained offshore pax that were supposed to know what they were doing.

[212man]

Agree with 212 that rotors running turnarounds of the general public on an S-76 are a higher risk level than I'd be comfortable to accept.

It was bad enough with trained offshore pax that were supposed to know what they were doing.

I remember one year (1992?) where one operator had two fatal accidents with deck crew members - one 76 and one 365.

[hargreaves99]

I can't see this being profitable, and using an S76? Cramped, very low disc etc

[newaviator]

Blimey an S76 , isn't that somewhat old technology ,luggage space will be minimal , and the cabin will no doubt be cozy

[helicrazi]

I can't see this being profitable, and using an S76? Cramped, very low disc etc

Single pilot, already saving a fortune

[hargreaves99]

Single pilot IMC over water? With 8 pax?

I wouldn't want to be in the back.

[peterperfect]

Was a B429 today, G-ODSA.

[heli14]

S-76 G-PNZE recently registered, formerly 5N-BWJ

h14

[212man]

S-76 G-PNZE recently registered, formerly 5N-BWJ

h14
ex-Caverton!

[SASless]

Several questions spring to mind reading of this....beginning with the choice being a 76 to begin with....much less one ex-Caverton....the single pilot in Public Transport does raise a question in the UK Nanny State.....although we see them flying EMS single pilot in the USA.

In years past the 76 was flown offshore single pilot.

It is not like the operation is in a particularly high traffic location is it?

[helicrazi]

Several questions spring to mind reading of this....beginning with the choice being a 76 to begin with....much less one ex-Caverton....the single pilot in Public Transport does raise a question in the UK Nanny State.....although we see them flying EMS single pilot in the USA.

In years past the 76 was flown offshore single pilot.

It is not like the operation is in a particularly high traffic location is it?

Also fly SP HEMS in UK

[hargreaves99]

Same operator

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-investigation-to-sikorsky-s-92a-g-lawx

https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/627996-g-lawx-s92-incident-aaib.html (https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-investigation-to-sikorsky-s-92a-g-lawx)

[Undecided]

Same operator

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-investigation-to-sikorsky-s-92a-g-lawx

https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/627996-g-lawx-s92-incident-aaib.html (https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-investigation-to-sikorsky-s-92a-g-lawx)

It’s my understanding that the Leicester City 169 crash was the same operator as well. Although I believe that this was an NCC flight rather an AOC.

[hargreaves99]

no, but the sea and ground are still pretty hard if you fly into them


It is not like the operation is in a particularly high traffic location is it?

[[email protected]]

Single pilot IMC over water? With 8 pax? Unlikely to be IMC since there is no let down at Penzance and a poor one at St Mary's. Only IMC will be due to diversion which will be tricky with fuel.

[hargreaves99]

So when it's marginal VFR...is single pilot a good idea?

[ShyTorque]

I suppose that depends what you’re trained for and used to.

[ericferret]

I suppose that depends what you’re trained for and used to.

Not to forget

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_British_Airways_Sikorsky_S-61_crash

[Undecided]

From the operators website ‘Safety and the management of risk is the starting point, the middle and the end of all we do. Starspeed has developed a mature safety management system over the last 12 years, not just because the regulations require it but because we firmly believe that it is an effective route to being ever better at what we offer.’
I would be interested to see the risk assessment for this operation and how single pilot in an S76 (which has more than its fair share of issues with rotors running pax transfers) compares with MP in an AW139. Seems odd that it was deemed to be safer and ‘better’. There can be do doubt that it is cheaper though. Mind you, I would agree that MP done in a manner as demonstrated in the recent S92 incident with the same operator is less safe than a competent SP operation.

[helimutt]

I find the talk here of unsafe S76 operations a bit unfair. The S76 has a fabulous safety record. Fuel loads are not an issue for that run. Ive flown them with 2 crew and 12 pax + bags for over 1.5 hours at a time in some pretty high temps. This is basically a VFR trip with the option of a divert if wx deteriorates. All you need to do to make it a safe SP operation is only fly when the wx is good enough. Just don't take any risks. No it may not please everyone but at least it removes the main risk for that job. Yes I've flown that route in a 109 too. Id happily fly it SP in a 76. Actually id take a 76 over a 109 any day of the week.
IF they allowed an RNAV/GPS approach then even better.

[hargreaves99]

Prices are £300+ for a return.

How does that compare with prices in the past?

[Undecided]

I find the talk here of unsafe S76 operations a bit unfair. The S76 has a fabulous safety record. Fuel loads are not an issue for that run. Ive flown them with 2 crew and 12 pax + bags for over 1.5 hours at a time in some pretty high temps. This is basically a VFR trip with the option of a divert if wx deteriorates. All you need to do to make it a safe SP operation is only fly when the wx is good enough. Just don't take any risks. No it may not please everyone but at least it removes the main risk for that job. Yes I've flown that route in a 109 too. Id happily fly it SP in a 76. Actually id take a 76 over a 109 any day of the week.
IF they allowed an RNAV/GPS approach then even better.
There is not much to disagree with in your post but there in lies the problem. Nothing wrong with the S76 but it is older technology replacing newer technology and on a commercial operation that relies on quick rotors running passenger changes why would you chose a helicopter with a lower disc height?
And why would you chose a SP operation where, as you recommend, the safest thing to do is ‘you only fly when the weather is good enough’? I can’t see the operator increasing their weather limits above and beyond the national limits as this is a scheduled service. The reality it this a coastal area whether the weather changes very quickly and there are few of us that have operated in that area on a regular basis that haven’t been caught out by the rapidly changing weather all year round. I have read the detailed AAIB report on the Starspeed S92 incident and it appears that the Accountable Manager, on that occasion at least, didn’t fully adhere to the rules and getting the job done was more important than strict adherence to regulation. One assumes that the pilots on this operation will be faced with some difficult decisions. I don’t envy them.
Surely a fundamental of Safety Management is that the risk should be as low as reasonably practical? The previous operator on this service achieved this by MP operations in a modern helicopter and strict adherence to the rules. Perhaps someone with a PHD in Aviation Safety Management can explain to me how an older technology helicopter operated SP can be deemed to be the same or lessor risk?

[helimutt]

There is not much to disagree with in your post but there in lies the problem. Nothing wrong with the S76 but it is older technology replacing newer technology and on a commercial operation that relies on quick rotors running passenger changes why would you chose a helicopter with a lower disc height?
And why would you chose a SP operation where, as you recommend, the safest thing to do is ‘you only fly when the weather is good enough’? I can’t see the operator increasing their weather limits above and beyond the national limits as this is a scheduled service. The reality it this a coastal area whether the weather changes very quickly and there are few of us that have operated in that area on a regular basis that haven’t been caught out by the rapidly changing weather all year round. I have read the detailed AAIB report on the Starspeed S92 incident and it appears that the Accountable Manager, on that occasion at least, didn’t fully adhere to the rules and getting the job done was more important than strict adherence to regulation. One assumes that the pilots on this operation will be faced with some difficult decisions. I don’t envy them.
Surely a fundamental of Safety Management is that the risk should be as low as reasonably practical? The previous operator on this service achieved this by MP operations in a modern helicopter and strict adherence to the rules. Perhaps someone with a PHD in Aviation Safety Management can explain to me how an older technology helicopter operated SP can be deemed to be the same or lessor risk?


In a perfect world I'd always use properly trained Multi crew ops with a machine which is suitable. There is nothing wrong with an S76C++ and I wouldn't call it outdated by any stretch. Older tech? maybe. Reliable ? Yes. Refuelling can always be done with no-one else on the pad, or shut-down, as per offshore ops, and then you need strict loading of pax. It's been done for decades with no passenger accidents being hit by blades that I'm aware of?? Could you point me to any? (I'm not talking about crew incidents where they became complacent)

There is the issue of exit if you ditch offshore, one of the reasons the S76 died a death offshore in the North Sea was the passenger emergency exit size restriction. Im sure we all know of 30+ year old airframes still flying regularly so I don't believe age of aircraft is part of this debate. If every old aircraft was dangerous, they wouldn't be allowed to fly.

My personal view is that this operation has so many requirements to operate at a profit, that a new airframe just wouldn't be part of that equation. You can prob buy 5 s76c++ for less than the cost of a new airframe like the 169 etc. The first people I'd speak to if I had to cost this op would be the engineers. Then ask the pilots opinion. Then see what ticks the boxes. Good luck to Starspeed but I get the feeling this Penzance thing is a poisoned chalice.

[SASless]

This situation begs a Low Altitude IFR route structure with a GPS Approach at each end using the latest technology, with automated weather reporting at each end.

Add modern lighting aids and equip and train for SPIFR operations and I would see safety be very much improved.

What is going to be done today is not that much different than back in the 1980's....when it was a two pilot S-61 doing the job.

Let's think back to some notable crashes that give us a hint at the pitfalls of doing a VFR flight in marginal VMC conditions...day and night.

One thing that does argue for a new way of doing things is that the Pilots flying this operation would become very familiar with the Approaches at each end if they did them every time...every flight...every day..

If those approaches and missed approach procedures were pre-programmed....and the FD and Autopilot was working and flying those approaches.....combined with the other required equipment.....why would it be a problem for a single Pilot to fly the flight?

The fuel requirement for an IFR Diversion would the largest hurtle.

The revenue provided by additional flights in marginal weather should begin to pay for the extra costs I am thinking but it would take a detailed study to make that determination.


My personal opinion is it should be Two Pilot crew.....as I am old fashioned and learned the hard way that all that fancy Gucci Kit doesn't not always work and when it doesn't the workload on a single Pilot ramps up very quickly.

[finalchecksplease]

Prices are £300+ for a return.

How does that compare with prices in the past?

Was a bit cheaper last year but everything has gone up in price.
If you look what renting a place in Tresco for the week during the high season cost £300 isn't the end of the world for people who able to afford that kind of cash. Also the alternative is either the vomit comet ferry (around 3 hrs each way, not cheap in peak season either) or a flight to St Mary's from Lands end for about £100 ish cheaper.

[ApolloHeli]

This situation begs a Low Altitude IFR route structure with a GPS Approach at each end using the latest technology, with automated weather reporting at each end.

Add modern lighting aids and equip and train for SPIFR operations and I would see safety be very much improved.

Couldn't agree more, but I can't see the CAA doing anything productive about it (creating helicopter-specific RNP procedures / routes) for many years to come, if ever. I don't know of a single PinS approach or helicopter low flight network throughout the UK - I would enjoy being enlightened if anyone does. Not having LPV level-of-service anymore also won't do the CAA any favours when it comes to it.

[RVDT]

This situation begs a Low Altitude IFR route structure with a GPS Approach at each end using the latest technology, with automated weather reporting at each end.

Add modern lighting aids and equip and train for SPIFR operations and I would see safety be very much improved.

What is going to be done today is not that much different than back in the 1980's....when it was a two pilot S-61 doing the job.

Let's think back to some notable crashes that give us a hint at the pitfalls of doing a VFR flight in marginal VMC conditions...day and night.

One thing that does argue for a new way of doing things is that the Pilots flying this operation would become very familiar with the Approaches at each end if they did them every time...every flight...every day..

If those approaches and missed approach procedures were pre-programmed....and the FD and Autopilot was working and flying those approaches.....combined with the other required equipment.....why would it be a problem for a single Pilot to fly the flight?

The fuel requirement for an IFR Diversion would the largest hurtle.

The revenue provided by additional flights in marginal weather should begin to pay for the extra costs I am thinking but it would take a detailed study to make that determination.


My personal opinion is it should be Two Pilot crew.....as I am old fashioned and learned the hard way that all that fancy Gucci Kit doesn't not always work and when it doesn't the workload on a single Pilot ramps up very quickly.

Might be a while SAS - "Brexit" negotiations did not elect to continue with EGNOS contributions so LPV no longer exists "legally" in the UK as of June 2021.

[hargreaves99]

I remember doing GPS approaches in the USA 17 years ago.

I can't believe the CAA haven't sorted this out yet. The technology exists, and has done for years.

[SASless]

There is a problem with relying upon GPS alone.....as in doing so on any single source of navigation or approach.....what do you do if that sole Aid goes the way of the Buffalo on you?

We used that wonderful thing called Decca...with the scroll type paper map....in a Single Pilot S-58T or Wessex with only a SAS system if it was working and no RadAlt....at night over the sea flying out of some very hostile areas with few Diversions near by.

I certainly am not suggesting that is the best way of going about business.....but do use that as an indicator of far technology and safety standards have advanced.

Some of you UK Helicopter Pilots might offer up some ideas of what could be done to create a Low Altitude Airway system and approaches for the operation....should the CAA awake from its after Lunch nap and find a way to legalize such a thing.

If you had a magic wand .....how would you do such a thing using GPS?


A Thread I started back in April.....

https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/646241-low-altitude-ifr-route-structure-approaches-helicopters-2.html

One Research Study Report on the topic......

https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/10.2514/1.D0210

[ShyTorque]

I did my first DECCA TANS letdown to a field in 1979, before we had GPS. Unfortunately things haven’t moved on very much since then, or at least we’re not officially allowed to.

[Asturias56]

I don't understand the attraction of helicopter flight when if you go 15 miles down the road you can get a cheaper fixed wing flight

[helimutt]

I don't understand the attraction of helicopter flight when if you go 15 miles down the road you can get a cheaper fixed wing flight

Well its 15 miles closer and a much cooler way to travel??? :)

[ShyTorque]

I don't understand the attraction of helicopter flight when if you go 15 miles down the road you can get a cheaper fixed wing flight

Unfortunately, Land’s End airport is often sitting in low cloud when 15 miles up the road there’s a helicopter sitting in VMC.

[212man]

Unfortunately, Land’s End airport is often sitting in low cloud when 15 miles up the road there’s a helicopter sitting in VMC.
http://penzanceheliport.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/PA16_09346-OPERATING_SITE_REQUIREMENTS_-_SLOANE_HELICOPTERS-3632425.pdf

discussed here

[SASless]

The linked Report noted pending approval of a GPS approach at Penzance with an estimated approval date of early 2018.

Did the CAA approve that approach....if not what is the status of the Request?

[ApolloHeli]

The linked Report noted pending approval of a GPS approach at Penzance with an estimated approval date of early 2018.

Did the CAA approve that approach....if not what is the status of the Request?
There's no mention of PinS approaches at either Penzance or Tresco in the UK AIP so I'm assuming it hasn't been approved yet.

[SASless]

Four and a half years.....is this another example of the stellar performance by the CAA or did the application be cancelled for other reasons?

[ShyTorque]

Other reasons.

They shut the heliport……and built a Tesco supermarket on it. ;)

[SASless]

Also....a gem of information appeared in this article.....where it states in the UK there is a requirement for ATC where an Instrument Approach is to be approved.

The article notes many European Nations are embracing this new technology as is the United States and Canada.

Perhaps that has a bearing on this as well.

We have IFR Approaches to Un-controlled Airports and Heliport....even to Hospitals.


https://www.euroga.org/articles/technical/peter/tb20-kln94-gps-approach-approval-faa

[Bravo73]

Other reasons.

They shut the heliport……and built a Tesco supermarket on it. ;)


That was the previous BIH operation.

The letter above refers to the ‘new’ Sloane (now Starspeed) operation.

[POBJOY]

Other reasons.

They shut the heliport……and built a Tesco supermarket on it. ;)

The original site was more valuable to the owners as a retail outlet (Sainsbury) and it was suggested that a Heliport could go down the road to St Erth (not a popular suggestion to the locals). The original location was nearer the coast and only overflew the British Rail yard (which was not unhelpful in poor weather as they had a blaze of lighting which showed up from miles away) PZ also had an NDB and a sea level elevation. The new heliport is only a couple of hundred yards away but the area has had increased development with consequent implications for an approach profile. However the basic facts are that PZ is open usually when Lands End is clamped, and therefore able to offer a more reliable service. There is no doubt that the S61 service really did open up the Scillies as far as an 'air service', but it probably never really covered the actual costs. The ability to carry our rapid turnarounds due to EB having a 'through hull' luggage option was a considerable benefit. I remember a consultants report regarding 'any air service' highlighted that it was unlikely that they were truly sustainable for the future and would prove to costly to maintain. The problem was that having got use to a flying bus that was both reliable and affordable for the users, the reality of 'paying what it really cost' for the locals was a real spoiler.
Sloane were rather hit by covid, but the ability to make a small helicopter both pay its way and provide a regular service (with no back up) is more than challenging for anything other than a semi 'first class' Tresco transport facility where the cost MAY not be that important. A fortune has been spent on Lands End (St Just) including GPS approaches, however the FOG is not impressed by that, and continues to close the airfield when it suits.

[Captain-Random]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/883x883/2ad97195_71e3_422b_953a_5140f27674f5_c8af679417d3dd92c015acf df15df9f9fb87c163.jpeg
Not a good start going tech for over a week

[helicrazi]

Tbf global spares supply chains are horrendous

[Undecided]

Tbf global spares supply chains are horrendous

But surely this was known when a high hour ex O&G machine was purchased from West Africa? Shouldn't an experienced operator such as Starspeed have invested in a spares holding prior to commencement of a scheduled service? Seems that the statement is the usual 'the dog ate my homework' from the good Dr but I guess we are all use to that now.

[helicrazi]

On the plus side, when does the 2 crew 139 arrive? :}

Joking aside, im sure there's a backup clause in the contract...

[Undecided]

Out of interest, does anyone have any information with regards the nature of the ‘technical problem’ that is referred to in the press release?

[EESDL]

Crikey - bad weather - let’s hope they have found a crew that listens to each other and acts accordingly ;-)
starpseed’s business model has always been ‘the owner pays’ so investing in a big bag of ‘proactive’ spares would not have been on the table - imho

[griffothefog]

When I was Shanghai’d into PBN qualification or else by the authorities, with the threat of losing my IR privilege after 30 odd years, I at least expected the arseholes who dictated the rules to be doing their bit and seamlessly approve most forwarded GPS/PIN/HELI approach plates.
Compared to the USA we are a throw back to the 60’s…….. Shameful for a safe offshore to onshore approach like PZE.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

I at least expected the arseholes who dictated the rules to be doing their bit and seamlessly approve most forwarded GPS/PIN/HELI approach plates
Perhaps it's their revenge for having failed to block civvy NVS ops after trying for so long - "thanks", Porky - not!!

[POBJOY]

For Scilly, Penzance, and Lands end, with a terminal VOR/DME virtually in the St Just circuit, plus an NDB on Scilly and PZ The Island route was quite well provided for both 'route info' and airfield locating. The real limitations were the size of the relative airfields/heliports which had no real approach lighting (over the sea) therefore when you were at decision height the 'visual' requirement for landing was rather hindered. The S61 was quite well equipped with two crew (and engines) Decca, VOR/DME, Radar, Rad ALT, ADF, and was able to offer an excellent all year service with a good load capacity. The alternative fixed wing operations were far more limited,(and still are). The main issue for the 61 was the availability of a suitable diversion when PZ went out, especially at w-ends when Culdrose was not available at short notice. If the 61 went tech on a Saturday then the Scillonian ferry would quite often do an extra trip to get the passengers across. If Lands End was 'out' on a Sat then the company Scillonian would pick up the load. Here we are decades later and lots of money spent, but no real improvement, and a difficult situation to make it all pay its way. The service will always require sea 'back up' to account for tech/weather issues.

[[email protected]]

The main problem with Scilly and PZ is advection fog, usually sitting on the deck and a couple of hundred feet thick - even a PBN/PINS approach isn't going to get you in then.

[ShyTorque]

When I was Shanghai’d into PBN qualification or else by the authorities, with the threat of losing my IR privilege after 30 odd years, I at least expected the arseholes who dictated the rules to be doing their bit and seamlessly approve most forwarded GPS/PIN/HELI approach plates.
Compared to the USA we are a throw back to the 60’s…….. Shameful for a safe offshore to onshore approach like PZE.


I agree. I, like many others, was required to partake in the PBN training course despite flying an aircraft not legally capable of flying a PBN approach even if a PBN approach existed (and at the sites I operated from, it didn’t), or lose ALL IR privileges, despite having held a U.K. IR for twenty years and non CAA IRs for forty years. To date, two years on, I have never flown one of these approaches and I probably never will. The only people benefiting from my hard earned cash were the people running the very much overpriced PBN course.

Having said that. We were flying DECCA TANS approaches to off airfield sites in RAF helicopters in 1979….

[Pozidrive]

Other reasons.

They shut the heliport……and built a Tesco supermarket on it. ;)

Er, Sainsbury's?

[POBJOY]

Er, Sainsbury's?

Post 72 covered that (keep up chaps)

When the original Heliport opened (built on a rubbish tip) the area was development free and had clear approaches close to the sea. After the 400 ft base at Lands End it must have seemed like Xmas every day.
The new site is more hemmed in with development and has to comply with the latest regs (no grandfather rights there) but still stays open when LE is clamped. I think the most difficult part of any rotary operation for the route is the cost factor for the limited no of seats, and it needs at least 15-20 seats to make it work. The 61 set the benchmark for the route, and will always be remembered for its 'bus like' service and it seems very difficult to find a modern machine to replace it, well in Europe anyway.

[212man]

Having said that. We were flying DECCA TANS approaches to off airfield sites in RAF helicopters in 1979….

TANS - there’s a blast from the past! Ten waypoints storage, with numeric names, so needed to be written down so you knew which was which. If more than ten waypoints in the route you deleted the early ones and added new ones as you went along!

[[email protected]]

Had the same TANS in the Lynx but without the added 'accuracy' of the Decca - just had a doppler feed. Much like the LWNA in the Gazelle, very much an area weapon.......

[JB-123]

TANS - let you know which Ocean you were in!!

[griffothefog]

Decca Danac let me know if I was near Wales when I was on the lights coming from Cornwall, that was about as good as it got, unless i tried to change the roll single pilot on the Bolkow 😮‍💨

[QTG]

Decca Danac let me know if I was near Wales when I was on the lights coming from Cornwall, that was about as good as it got, unless i tried to change the roll single pilot on the Bolkow 😮‍💨

IMC or at night was a bit challenging 😱. Pilots today don’t know they’re born etc etc.

[heli61]

Surprised nobody has mentioned consol

Yet!,

[POBJOY]

Popped in to PZ today to check on current schedule, S76 does one morning and one afternoon return flight. Closed Sun.

[Brexoff]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1111x1720/img_0194_361d8442a400e0cfa5281df29e56a8351a3eb43a.jpeg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1137x1471/img_0195_82f1d22dd1fcb3120a184a9a193bffe109b33cfd.jpeg

[SASless]

Griffo flew with me when Tans was not something our employer bought but came to the fleet upon it buying out another smaller operator.

He and I shared some rather interesting flights back in the day.

Young ones today should not be fooled....those were not the "good" old days.....just the "old" days.

Yes....I have used Consol in those "old" days.

[212man]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1111x1720/img_0194_361d8442a400e0cfa5281df29e56a8351a3eb43a.jpeg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1137x1471/img_0195_82f1d22dd1fcb3120a184a9a193bffe109b33cfd.jpeg

It’s ‘effect’ not ‘affect’ …….

[RVDT]

It’s ‘effect’ not ‘affect’ …….

From the statement it would seem that it is a frame problem and not something with a rotable component otherwise you would just change it out.

Some "affection" may be required to get someone out of retirement to fix it!
76's aren't getting any younger and are slowly disappearing along with the "knowledge" to keep them going.

The "body language" in the picture does not exactly inspire.

[KiwiNedNZ]

4. Why Starspeed pilots are required to sign non disclosure agreements.

Probably because a lot of them go and fly the VVIP machines they operate for other customers in sandy places. Sort of a no brainer in this day and age.

​​​​​​​1. The reason why he is one of the few (if not only) scheduled service operator in the U.K. that has elected not to share the position data on his aircraft.

Does that really matter ???.

[hargreaves99]

https://helihub.com/2023/07/05/starspeed-battles-terrible-tripadvisor-rating-on-isles-of-scilly-route/

https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attraction_Review-g186240-d21134911-Reviews-Penzance_Helicopters-Penzance_Cornwall_England.html

[[email protected]]

That's not good news for them - perhaps buying two aircraft, that have almost immediately had technical issues, from Nigeria wasn't the smartest option - were they cheap by any chance?

Presumably they were properly surveyed before they were bought?

The Scillies shuttle has enough to contend with thanks to the weather down there without serviceability problems making it worse.

[RVDT]

I remember back in the mid 80's with 2 x VIP "A" model machines we used to work on about 10 maintenance / service / turnaround support hours per flight hour until you get them settled down. Customisation and MOD Status was always fun. Plus they are all "hand made" and I doubt any of them are the same, similar maybe at best. You need the minimum of at least one "blackhander" LAME and a "moon goon" Avionics tech per 2 machines permanently at their base of ops. Things may be better with the Safran engine but still.

[JokersWildMk.2]

That's not good news for them - perhaps buying two aircraft, that have almost immediately had technical issues, from Nigeria wasn't the smartest option - were they cheap by any chance?

Presumably they were properly surveyed before they were bought?

The Scillies shuttle has enough to contend with thanks to the weather down there without serviceability problems making it worse.

Not sure about the second airframe, but the first one was brought in from Eagle Copters in Calgary, AB. after undergoing a thorough return to service program. That being said, one is curious if/who Starspeed sent to YYC to survey and fly the a/c prior to signing off on it. Would love to know what, exactly, the issue was that grounded the a/c for so long.

[[email protected]]

a thorough return to service program. That sounds like an aircraft that has sat in a hangar for some while - never a good thing for a helicopter.

[JokersWildMk.2]

That sounds like an aircraft that has sat in a hangar for some while - never a good thing for a helicopter.

Crab - You are correct.