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Sailvi767
25th Jun 2022, 21:19
https://youtu.be/mjZwqATDSn8

Sailvi767
25th Jun 2022, 21:28
This is a better narrative. JFK tower and ground bear some responsibility. Departures should have been stopped until they sorted out who was involved. I suspect the use of Alitalia name created some of the confusion with JFK atc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnW6Cffgb6o

compressor stall
25th Jun 2022, 21:57
If thatís a complete recording, thatís some third world ATC right there.

STBYRUD
26th Jun 2022, 01:38
Wow that's weak. Then again it's JFK, so unfortunately not a huge surprise...

First_Principal
26th Jun 2022, 02:52
Full marks to Air France for persisting in the face of extremely indifferent ATC, er, GTC 👏

While there may have been some minor difficulties with accent I didn't have any issue understanding AF the first time, let alone the further multiple times they tried to explain.

Once Ground got it (or did they?!) I was very surprised they asked AF to find a telephone and call the Tower, that doesn't seem reasonable to me - at least not in the first instance?

To be fair the recording may not be complete, and no doubt more detail will out following investigation but at this stage it appears to me there are a series of holes in the cheese lining up that shouldn't (incl Alitalia crew), and it's just luck that there wasn't a last hole ready for everything to drop through. If nothing else this could make a good training event for various organisations to show how easily things can go awry if people don't do as they should, or are not at the peak of their game all the time.

Busbuoy
26th Jun 2022, 04:22
It would be very interesting comparing the apparent "go-mindedness" of this ATC tower team to that of a USN carrier launch crew. If what I watch on the myriad of YouTube videos out there is accurate, there seems to be a big focus on making sure no-one can see the slightest reason not to launch before giving the thumbs up. I'll bet if you had whispered "collision" and "damage" within 50ft of those guys you would've seen so many crossed arms it would've made your head spin.

WideScreen
26th Jun 2022, 04:48
If thatís a complete recording, thatís some third world ATC right there.
IF that's NOT the complete recording, it would even degrade the JFK ATC to a BANned Third World country type of ATC.

And the ITA reaction is what you get, when the ATC is arrogant to the max. Ehhh, Trump country ?

Nimmer
26th Jun 2022, 04:53
Agree if that recording is 100% correct than it’s very poor from ATC. However the Italian crew must of felt some form of bump or heard a noise as they hit the Air France surely?

It’s an IMMEDIATE press the emergency line and an Aircraft ground incident reaction from a controller in the UK.

Post Flight
26th Jun 2022, 05:03
Very astute WideScreen!

I did not recognize the JFK ground controller's voice as Trump ... awww, he's a cagey guy!

DaveReidUK
26th Jun 2022, 06:33
However the Italian crew must of felt some form of bump or heard a noise as they hit the Air France surely?

Not necessarily.

Damage to the AZ A330 appears to have been confined to a winglet (it was in service again a couple of days after arriving at Rome), whereas the AF 777 is still grounded at JFK more than a week after the event, so it's perfectly possible that the crew of the former were unaware of the incident.

captainsmiffy
26th Jun 2022, 07:18
How is it that the ground controller is not aware of where AF is? It always bothered me that when I arrived in JFK, I was asked what entry point to the ramp it is that I take or to what gate am I going? Surely I should be controlled and told the routing and the gate, as per the rest of the world operations. JFK just beggars belief….

oceancrosser
26th Jun 2022, 08:06
How is it that the ground controller is not aware of where AF is? It always bothered me that when I arrived in JFK, I was asked what entry point to the ramp it is that I take or to what gate am I going? Surely I should be controlled and told the routing and the gate, as per the rest of the world operations. JFK just beggars beliefÖ.

Thatís not the way it works at JFK, nor at quite a few large US airports. May not be what you are used to, but you better get used to it. And that was apparently not a factor in this incident.

PoppaJo
26th Jun 2022, 09:13
Full marks to Air France for persisting in the face of extremely indifferent ATC, er, GTC 👏

While there may have been some minor difficulties with accent I didn't have any issue understanding AF the first time, let alone the further multiple times they tried to explain.

Once Ground got it (or did they?!) I was very surprised they asked AF to find a telephone and call the Tower, that doesn't seem reasonable to me - at least not in the first instance?
The ground controller should have contacted the Tower immediately, does not need to be a long conversation, simply advise Tower, ITA is to return to the terminal due to damage. Needless to say do you really want to be half way across the Atlantic with bells and whistles going off?

I think the language from ATC was poor, seemed to be more questioning the ITA crew vs telling. Naturally if the ITA crew felt nothing, and no red flags up front, false alarm mindset comes to mind.

safetypee
26th Jun 2022, 09:17
‘That’s not the way it works at JFK, nor at quite a few large US airports.’

However, in this instance, that was how it did work; and additionally from US experience, how frequent similar situations indicate the fragility of that system’s operation.

An attitude of ‘… better get used to it’ can hide significant hazards, expecting that all crews will manage all situations, all of the time, which questions the level of safety - as observed, or as expected - who views, and when.

733driver
26th Jun 2022, 09:44
the Italian crew must of felt....

What does this mean? Must of felt? It makes no sense to me. But English is not my first language

STBYRUD
26th Jun 2022, 09:48
Very well said safetypee, it absolutely doesn't have to be this way. Combined with the often belligerent and arrogant attitude of controllers at Kennedy (Steve :*) bordering on the unprofessional it really makes things harder than they need to be, and definitely not safer.

FUMR
26th Jun 2022, 10:23
What does this mean? Must of felt? It makes no sense to me. But English is not my first language

It should read "must have felt". It's a common grammatical error.

Liffy 1M
26th Jun 2022, 10:41
It should read "must have felt". It's a common grammatical error.

...by native speakers of English.

Lake1952
26th Jun 2022, 10:52
The most outrageous part of this IMO is when the GC asked AF008 to copy a phone number for the tower!

WideScreen
26th Jun 2022, 11:26
The most outrageous part of this IMO is when the GC asked AF008 to copy a phone number for the tower!
This started even earlier, when the GC started questioning the AF008 reporting, whether the event had happened and/or being sure it was Alitalia. It more or less suggests "Hey, I am not going to disrupt the operations, because of your message". Outrageous.

meleagertoo
26th Jun 2022, 11:41
Quite apart from the appalling RT, the incredible unprofessionalism and lack of awareness of the ground "controller" one can only wonder why it took Air France 27 minutes to report the incident. What were they doing for the other 26?

carib man
26th Jun 2022, 12:01
How is it that the ground controller is not aware of where AF is? It always bothered me that when I arrived in JFK, I was asked what entry point to the ramp it is that I take or to what gate am I going? Surely I should be controlled and told the routing and the gate, as per the rest of the world operations. JFK just beggars beliefÖ.
JFK Ramp is controlled by a private company Ramp Control. At one time their pay was much more than ATC ground control. This caused a rift between the two. They dont like to talk to one another, thats why ground control ask you what entry point to the ramp as ground control dont know which entry point is blocked or not.. Thats why you call Ground Control and advise which exit you are leaving the ramp when requesting taxi instructions. Maybe thats what caused the initial confusion with ground control as he does not knows who is parked where on the ramp or cares what happens on the ramp.

farefield
26th Jun 2022, 12:07
No wonder it's called Lagos West by some people.

Mogwi
26th Jun 2022, 13:56
I have not been to JFK for a decade but always regarded it as an accident waiting to happen. I remember one busy evening a call from ground which went “OK, everyone SHUDDUP!!”. In fact ATC across most of the US was appalling and certainly not in any way ICAO standard.

Luckily the Tiger won’t get across the pond!

Mog

B2N2
26th Jun 2022, 14:11
JFK, ORD and to a (slightly) lesser extend LAX are trash airports staffed by auctioneers and used car salesmen.

Oldaircrew
26th Jun 2022, 14:28
Quite apart from the appalling RT, the incredible unprofessionalism and lack of awareness of the ground "controller" one can only wonder why it took Air France 27 minutes to report the incident. What were they doing for the other 26?
From what I understood the AF crew werenít aware of the bump until told by their ground staff that the Italian had hit them. It seems odd but I can easily see how they did not feel it unless it was a substantial impact.

All hat and no cows
26th Jun 2022, 14:39
‘That’s not the way it works at JFK, nor at quite a few large US airports.’

However, in this instance, that was how it did work; and additionally from US experience, how frequent similar situations indicate the fragility of that system’s operation.

An attitude of ‘… better get used to it’ can hide significant hazards, expecting that all crews will manage all situations, all of the time, which questions the level of safety - as observed, or as expected - who views, and when.
It would be impossible with the amount of movements at JFK to have one or two ground frequencies handle all.. that is why itís necessary to have multiple ramp freqs,.and as you know, many of these ramps are congested to the point that one movement can jam the whole thing up.
There is NEVER anytime that Iíve operated JFK where you are uncontrolled.

spleener
26th Jun 2022, 14:53
JFK ATC: . The place has expertise and experience, but the attitude gets in the way far too often. Too much watching 'Pushing Tin"?

Lucky this time.

Una Due Tfc
26th Jun 2022, 15:04
The most outrageous part of this IMO is when the GC asked AF008 to copy a phone number for the tower!

Completely agree. The apathetic (and plain old pathetic) handling of this by the ground controller is staggering.

Well done that AF crew.

Sailvi767
26th Jun 2022, 15:27
The use of the name Alitalia probably caused confusion. The controller would have looked for a Alitalia strip and not finding one and not having taxied a Alitalia aircraft wondered what AF was discussing. The correct call sign is Itarro or something like that. I suspect the aircraft was still painted in Alitalia paint which would explain the ground crew telling the flight crew they were hit by Alitalia. I don’t get the ITA crew dismissing the incident with a curt negative. I would have asked for a lot more information to make 100% sure my aircraft was not involved.

WideScreen
26th Jun 2022, 16:00
The use of the name Alitalia probably caused confusion. The controller would have looked for a Alitalia strip and not finding one and not having taxied a Alitalia aircraft wondered what AF was discussing. The correct call sign is Itarro or something like that. I suspect the aircraft was still painted in Alitalia paint which would explain the ground crew telling the flight crew they were hit by Alitalia. I donít get the ITA crew dismissing the incident with a curt negative. I would have asked for a lot more information to make 100% sure my aircraft was not involved.
Sure, and it is completely unknown to the controllers, Alitalia got a rename, though for the rest stayed the same ?

WideScreen
26th Jun 2022, 16:01
JFK Ramp is controlled by a private company Ramp Control. At one time their pay was much more than ATC ground control. This caused a rift between the two. They dont like to talk to one another, thats why ground control ask you what entry point to the ramp as ground control dont know which entry point is blocked or not.. Thats why you call Ground Control and advise which exit you are leaving the ramp when requesting taxi instructions. Maybe thats what caused the initial confusion with ground control as he does not knows who is parked where on the ramp or cares what happens on the ramp.
Extremely professional.

FUMR
26th Jun 2022, 16:33
Sure, and it is completely unknown to the controllers, Alitalia got a rename, though for the rest stayed the same ?

Not quite. They have a new livery. However, not all aircraft have been repainted and there are still plenty in the old colors with the Alitalia titles. As already mentioned above, that too must have added to all the confusion.

Having checked, I can confirm that EI-EJL was still in full ALITALIA livery, but using the new callsign "Itarrow".

havick
26th Jun 2022, 17:54
How is it that the ground controller is not aware of where AF is? It always bothered me that when I arrived in JFK, I was asked what entry point to the ramp it is that I take or to what gate am I going? Surely I should be controlled and told the routing and the gate, as per the rest of the world operations. JFK just beggars beliefÖ.

Have you landed at ORD? Many times you get back to the gate without having spoken with anyone once on the ground.

5star
26th Jun 2022, 18:00
The most outrageous part of this IMO is when the GC asked AF008 to copy a phone number for the tower!

Quite normal actually what they did.
Often used to take an important matter off the frequency. Firstly, as to not congest the ATC frequency. Secondly, as to discuss this privately (and more conveniently) over the phone. We all know everything is live recorded by many parties.

fokker1000
26th Jun 2022, 18:11
I have operated into quite a few busy US airports over the years. They can be chaotic to say the least. And I have heard more than patronising RT to non English [first language] speaking crew.

FK10

PS. never say you're visual if they ask if you can see the airfield... Unless you want to be told your'e now on a visual approach. I'm surprised more aviation lawyers haven't swooped in on this years ago....

fokker1000
26th Jun 2022, 18:21
Just seen that post from Havick..

First time I landed at ORD. Night time, raining and when we switched to ground it was so congested (taxiways) we were advised "If you can see a way through, go for it!" I'm not joking.

Go the LHR, or anywhere in the LTMA, the controllers speak slowly and clearly to crew that clearly are unfamiliar with the airspace, taxiways and language. And guess what...... less blocked frequencies due to read backs required. How simple is that.

DC10RealMan
26th Jun 2022, 18:30
I am glad that I was at Heathrow ATC!

Spunky Monkey
26th Jun 2022, 18:30
If the ground handlers saw the incident - why the hell did they not immediately report it and get the Alitalia Itarro stopped and returned to the gate?

Taking the time to report it to the AF crew who then had to continually call ground to get a response - who then didn't stop the Alitalia beggars belief.
I would have initially made a PAN Call - but as the Yanks are not known for its usage - I would have called a MAYDAY - to preserve life.

Yes some will call it an over reaction - but if it stops a damaged aircraft getting airborne with potentially catastrophic results then my shoulders are big enough for an interview without coffee - but standby for the retort...

SpamCanDriver
26th Jun 2022, 21:13
As we all knoow it's quite normal during loading to feel some "bumps" so unless it was a really hard hit I'm not surprised the AF crew didn't realise.
We also also know from other incidents crews might not necessarily feel light impacts in the cockpit.

The only thing that puzzles me is how the crew immediately dismissed the fact they might have hit something.
I'd definitely be asking ATC to confirm it was definitely my aircraft that was suspected of hitting the Air france & who reported it etc. And would definitely be asking the crew if the felt anything strange during taxi, which for some reason they didn't tell us

Una Due Tfc
26th Jun 2022, 22:42
Just seen that post from Havick..

First time I landed at ORD. Night time, raining and when we switched to ground it was so congested (taxiways) we were advised "If you can see a way through, go for it!" I'm not joking.

Go the LHR, or anywhere in the LTMA, the controllers speak slowly and clearly to crew that clearly are unfamiliar with the airspace, taxiways and language. And guess what...... less blocked frequencies due to read backs required. How simple is that.

ATC 101, the busier the freq, the slower and more precise you speak. Avoids corrections and repeats.

Request Orbit
26th Jun 2022, 23:04
Quite normal actually what they did. Often used to take an important matter off the frequency. Firstly, as to not congest the ATC frequency. Secondly, as to discuss this privately (and more conveniently) over the phone. We all know everything is live recorded by many parties.

Yes the sequence in and of itself isnít unusual, but the specific context here is that getting through to the Itarrow before they depart should have been time critical, and done by the guy giving out the phone number ringing tower himself ASAP. The amount of time wasted giving AF a phone number seemingly prevented the message getting through pre-takeoff.

compressor stall
27th Jun 2022, 08:00
Quite normal actually what they did.
Often used to take an important matter off the frequency. Firstly, as to not congest the ATC frequency. Secondly, as to discuss this privately (and more conveniently) over the phone. We all know everything is live recorded by many parties.
Something arises that has a potentially catastrophic outcome with the loss of hundreds of lives that has a time critical course of action to stop it... and they want to spend a minute or two take it off ramp / ground frequency to stop congestion? Really?

Pearly White
27th Jun 2022, 08:27
Any pictures of the damage on either aircraft?

Uplinker
27th Jun 2022, 08:59
The ground controller sounds and behaves as though he was half asleep. The AF gave their position the first time they called up, but there was a long delay before ATC replied, and then the controller spent ages trying to find their position.

ATC at JFK is always a challenge. LHR and CDG, to mention two, are both huge and busy airports with much better ATC, so it can be done. I was not aware of part of ATC being a private company at JFK but it is always a monumental pain in the arse to have to make separate radio calls on box 2 to find out which stand you are allocated while you are taxiing in. Just frigging well talk to each other ATC, and work with each other ! (There must be a screen available showing everybody's stand allocation).

Also: both aircraft and ATC should have spoken more clearly and used CAP 413 phrases and message construction. That way we all have a better chance of understanding first time - even those for whom English is not their first language.

"Ground, this is AF xxx. We are holding at gate/stand 9 and another aircraft has just struck us".
"AF xxx, Roger. Hold your position. Did you see which aircraft?". etc.

733driver
27th Jun 2022, 10:41
Also: both aircraft and ATC should have spoken more clearly and used CAP 413 phrases and message construction. T



Why should JFK ATC and Air France speak in accordance with the UK CAA radiotelephony manual?

Uplinker
27th Jun 2022, 11:08
You are right, my meaning was : IF they had used standard phrases and message structure, confusion would have been reduced.

Brian 48nav
27th Jun 2022, 11:12
Why should JFK ATC and Air France speak in accordance with the UK CAA radiotelephony manual?

How about - to avoid the confusing scenario everyone is talking about here?

Pearly White
27th Jun 2022, 11:24
If the ground handlers saw the incident - why the hell did they not immediately report it and get the Alitalia Itarro stopped and returned to the gate?

Taking the time to report it to the AF crew who then had to continually call ground to get a response - who then didn't stop the Alitalia beggars belief.
I would have initially made a PAN Call - but as the Yanks are not known for its usage - I would have called a MAYDAY - to preserve life.

Yes some will call it an over reaction - but if it stops a damaged aircraft getting airborne with potentially catastrophic results then my shoulders are big enough for an interview without coffee - but standby for the retort...
I bet a Mayday call on the Ground frequency would cause a bit of a flap in the JFK control room!

Sailvi767
27th Jun 2022, 11:25
The ground controller sounds and behaves as though he was half asleep. The AF gave their position the first time they called up, but there was a long delay before ATC replied, and then the controller spent ages trying to find their position.

ATC at JFK is always a challenge. LHR and CDG, to mention two, are both huge and busy airports with much better ATC, so it can be done. I was not aware of part of ATC being a private company at JFK but it is always a monumental pain in the arse to have to make separate radio calls on box 2 to find out which stand you are allocated while you are taxiing in. Just frigging well talk to each other ATC, and work with each other ! (There must be a screen available showing everybody's stand allocation).

Also: both aircraft and ATC should have spoken more clearly and used CAP 413 phrases and message construction. That way we all have a better chance of understanding first time - even those for whom English is not their first language.

"Ground, this is AF xxx. We are holding at gate/stand 9 and another aircraft has just struck us".
"AF xxx, Roger. Hold your position. Did you see which aircraft?". etc.

LHR I agree has excellent ATC. CDG not so much! Some CDG controllers seem to think their lives depend on how many words per minute they can speak not to mention the whole two language mess.

FUMR
27th Jun 2022, 14:39
Some CDG controllers seem to think their lives depend on how many words per minute they can speak

That may be so but that's exactly how I describe the majority of ATCOs in the USA. But, the locals don't seem to have a problem with it. It's all down to being more in tune with one's native language no matter at which speed the delivery is made. However, some ATCOs just do not grasp the need to slow down and make the effort to be clearer when speaking to non natives. Just here, locally in The Netherlands (no, not Amsterdam), I was the other day astounded at the speed of delivery and lack of clarity by a Dutch ATCO with an Chinese crew. I lost count of the number of "say again" requests by the crew! Not even a busy airport.

421dog
27th Jun 2022, 19:35
As a semi-outsider who stays out of the transport hubs unless I have to, these guys were really easy to understand. Iím in and out of a lot of US Bravo airspace weekly/monthly and this is the way it is.

Iíve had ground control at Teterboro John Wayne or Waukegan who were utterly unintelligible for extended periods, and these folks were professionalÖ
The planes didnít break and everyone made it home for supper.

Seems like we might have effected enough of a safety culture that the world wonít end for a few more yearsÖ

Equivocal
27th Jun 2022, 21:10
Seems like we might have effected enough of a safety culture that the world won’t end for a few more years… Sadly, I think that the fact that everyone made it home for supper may be down more to luck than any positive safety culture......on the part of some of those involved, at least.

T28B
28th Jun 2022, 04:10
Mod Alert: If you all cannot disagree with one another without being disagreeable, then please refrain from posting.

This incident is of interest to anyone flying in and out of JFK (and possibly other destinations).
Let us please retain our professional focus on that.

Less Hair
28th Jun 2022, 08:34
Maybe the next time an event like this would warrant some PanPanPan call on ground and naming the other guy "italian" instead of "Alitalia" for ITA so he can be located via the registration easier? The AF cockpit did a good job no offense to anybody.

Uplinker
28th Jun 2022, 09:00
At LHR we often used to be warned of the XXX aircraft in YYY colours passing left to right or behind - because ATC understood that pilots would not necessarily know which call-signs referred to which aircraft.

DaveReidUK
28th Jun 2022, 09:13
Maybe the next time an event like this would warrant some PanPanPan call on ground and naming the other guy "italian" instead of "Alitalia" for ITA

The same A332 departing Boston a couple of weeks ago operating ITA Airways' ITY615 to FCO:

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/589x397/ei_ejl_901a7df6b3a162b554cecd9224259eb13f3ce938.jpg

I think one could be forgiven for referring to it as "Alitalia", under the circumstances.

EI-EJL | Airbus A330-202 | Alitalia (ITA Airways) | bill wang | JetPhotos (https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/10614680)

Sailvi767
28th Jun 2022, 11:35
In many other airline mergers they put what amounts to a large decal over the old name with the new name. Avoids confusion for everyone until the aircraft are cycled through paint.

PENKO
28th Jun 2022, 12:51
The ground controller sounds and behaves as though he was half asleep. The AF gave their position the first time they called up, but there was a long delay before ATC replied, and then the controller spent ages trying to find their position.

ATC at JFK is always a challenge. LHR and CDG, to mention two, are both huge and busy airports with much better ATC, so it can be done. I was not aware of part of ATC being a private company at JFK but it is always a monumental pain in the arse to have to make separate radio calls on box 2 to find out which stand you are allocated while you are taxiing in. Just frigging well talk to each other ATC, and work with each other ! (There must be a screen available showing everybody's stand allocation).

Also: both aircraft and ATC should have spoken more clearly and used CAP 413 phrases and message construction. That way we all have a better chance of understanding first time - even those for whom English is not their first language.

"Ground, this is AF xxx. We are holding at gate/stand 9 and another aircraft has just struck us".
"AF xxx, Roger. Hold your position. Did you see which aircraft?". etc.
I don't see any CAP413 phrases applicable to this incident in your example :)

Having said that, a bit of articulation from the French crew would have helped, as would a more factual description of the accident: '27 minutes ago, Alitalia A330 wing tip collided with my tail and caused damage'
Mind you, according to the YouTube video, Air France called the ground 27 minutes after the collision. No wonder the ground controller was a bit confused as to who hit what, when and where.

Uplinker
29th Jun 2022, 16:59
Oh, 27 minutes later ? Ahhh. Hmmm.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x617/2256d9b7_eea7_4424_bd66_ef3abf445ed6_8b42ee7866579253500eea5 34451d6057847652a.jpeg

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x612/0e9a8c48_ddc3_471e_999e_7ea5bd118e18_79013555ec7a06a3160a078 6d10bbe24e79b59ba.jpeg

:)

NYCPK
3rd Jul 2022, 22:46
One horizontal stabilizer on the AF 772 was pretty badly damaged.