Pilot Shortage in Hong Kong

[Flex88]

Yes folks only Swire swine could dream this up... Not long ago and for decades before, high end watch companies would produce limited edition watch issues just for the crew and other Cathay Pacific aficionados clamouring for a take home bit of legendary CX airline history and now, this.... The only watch replica worthy of the CX generated memories documented over the last decade of history would be a Mickey Mouse watch with a rubber band no doubt made from the same material the tons of rubber dog sh*t CX cargo "used" to haul.. The Swire buffoons have, once again, outdone themselves.. !!!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-15/cathay-plans-hiring-spree-to-prepare-for-hong-kong-travel-bounce

[MENELAUS]

Rearranging deck chairs frankly. Absolutely A50 delusional. Why in the name of sweet baby Jesus would you return to a police state ?
To be scrupulously fair to Carry Lam (with great difficulty) she said stop the rioting or Hong Kong will never be the same again. And she has been proven more than right.

[RAT Management]

Still plenty of volunteers for training and other fancy office title jobs for not much if any extra pay. It's a first in history when a significant pay cut motivates people to give more. Pilots are the cockroaches of society and will cannibalize their own pay and conditions of the entire group for a shiny office title.

[smogluver]

Love the Bloomberg article and the fact that there is a “ Pangolin aviation recovery fund” FFS

[arse]

Cathay Pacific Can’t Stop Pilot Exodus as It Tries to Hire More

Airline may offer more allowances, benefits to stem departures
Staff have been caught in fallout of Hong Kong’s Covid battle


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-17/cathay-pacific-can-t-stop-pilot-exodus-as-it-tries-to-hire-more#xj4y7vzkg

[Sam Ting Wong]

To be scrupulously fair to Carry Lam (with great difficulty) she said stop the rioting or Hong Kong will never be the same again. And she has been proven more than right.

CL, the mastermind behind a many ingenious political moves and ideas ( zero covid to enable border opening with China), started the riots by introducing an extradition law with China, and then was unable to stop them again.

[rhoshamboe]

CL, the mastermind behind a many ingenious political moves and ideas ( zero covid to enable border opening with China), started the riots by introducing an extradition law with China, and then was unable to stop them again.
Holy crap. I actually agree with you!

[Sam Ting Wong]

Well, I can help you out here.

There was, is and never will be a pilot shortage at Cathay.

And to point out an obvious thinking mistake: it can't be pilot shortage AND going out of business/ Cathay/ Hong Kong is lost etc. You would have to pick one side I am afraid.

[Piet Lood]

Bloody hell, do you ever get tired of that broken record of yours? We do!
Your defeatist attitude is part of the reason the situation went out of control.
Pilots not standing up for what was right and even joining the management and beancounting team.
Here’s my broken record: people like you are the problem of the industry.

Standing by for the inevitable statements about my naievity and you being a multi-millionaire who is also a victim of the circumstances.

[Cury Lamb]

I suspect that STW and Augustus Twang both smoke the same sh*t

[Sam Ting Wong]

If one would blame singular selfish behaviour, why stop at the pay package for Cathay pilots?

We could finally achieve fair pay for nurses, toilet cleaner and domestic helper ( too simple, they all just stay home until the pay offer is right). When that is done, we could end the Ukrainian war ( you guessed it, all soldiers just stop) and while were at it global warming ( we stop to eat meat, no more cheap plastic and all on public transport, sorted). Then we stop famines, everybody in the first world simply gives a monthly salary to the poor. Done.

Most importantly, if all could wait until people did alight from the MTR, on the side. Then board the train. 🙏

[VforVENDETTA]

There already is a pilot shortage at cx.

G hughes admitting publicly that cos18 is not cutting it, IS admitting they miscalculated and bow they have to hire 700 pilots PLUS 800 cadets in an effort to get back to normalcy. That's how many they're short now to meet their plans, and it's spiraling further each month. All those with children had made plans and preparations to leave this summer when kids are out of school so they can start the new school year in September ahead of cx cutting their education allowance. All the rest have made plans to leave by the end of the year ahead of housing allowance being cut by 2/3. Once the momentum has been established which it has, it's impossible to stop.

A few days before all this was admitted to, at a board meeting attended by that monumental waste of oxygen Augusta prang the all important subject of recovery plan was being discussed. Various planning preparations obviously need to be reviewed and executed. They're having no luck attracting employee candidates for ANY level job. The 600 pound elephant in the room is the pilot jobs. It takes years+$$$$$$$ to train them etc. Unless you hire "expats", which at cx historically takes 6 months+$$$ of qualification.

The inevitable question was asked :"so what is the plan to hire these needed pilots to be able to execute this recovery?" Specifically from where are we hiring the 700 direct entries and just how will we have the capacity to train the other 800 cadets we're going to hire and train for the next few years? There was no answer from anyone. They have very few pilot candidates, qualified or not.

It was generally admitted that the recovery plan can't be done as planned. They were planning on being at 60% total capacity by September. It's already obvious they can't do that.

The idiotic statements they keep making about how cos 18 is being constantly "reviewed & adjusted" is a big joke. Nothing short of a snap back to cos 08 will even get anyone's attention. The negligable amounts they plan to keep raising it until exodus slows down will not achieve anything. And since they've permanently lost all credibility as an employer, they now have to pay even more than before to get expats to risk going to work for them. Even Cos 08 will not be enough going forward. What they have fkkkd up cannot be unfkkkd without ridiculous amounts of money being spent, whether to attract expats again or the cost of so many cadets having to be trained from scratch over the years to come.

Then there's the inevitable hull loss or two coming cathay's way in the near future. That'll cost them too.

How historically incompetent and stupid cx board could have been to miscalculate this so badly? Who is stupid enough to let these fools manage their money and assets in the form of an airline? Who is stupid enough to buy or hold cx stock? Who's stupid enough to have an opportunity for another job and stay at cx?

[Piet Lood]

If one would blame singular selfish behaviour, why stop at the pay package for Cathay pilots?

We could finally achieve fair pay for nurses, toilet cleaner and domestic helper ( too simple, they all just stay home until the pay offer is right). When that is done, we could end the Ukrainian war ( you guessed it, all soldiers just stop) and while were at it global warming ( we stop to eat meat, no more cheap plastic and all on public transport, sorted). Then we stop famines, everybody in the first world simply gives a monthly salary to the poor. Done.

PS One more thing. We all could wait until people did alight from the MTR, on the side. Then board the train. 🙏

If Zelensky had your attitude, Ukraine would have been taken a long time ago.
Why don’t you go call him and tell him resistance is futile.
Weak dick!

[Progress Wanchai]

It’s an utter mess, but there is no turning the clock back. No amount of money fixes the problem as management have proven whatever they promise today can be removed tomorrow. An employment contract means nothing unless you’re based. Oh, wait…

Snap back to COS08? How quickly we’ve forgotten. Do you not remember that in 2016 you were offered COS08 plus 8% and voted that offer down? The world was a lot cheaper in 2016 than today, Hong Kong was a better place to live, we believed our employment contract meant something and we all had the option of finishing our career on a base, yet COS08 plus 8% wasn’t good enough.

So is COS08 (minus the base option) in 2022 going to fix management’s problem? Not even close. No amount of money changes the fact we are just mercenaries temporarily working for an employer that can’t be trusted.

[Dilbert68]

The problem is that this management hates pilots more than it likes making money. They had a party when they destroyed our contract at the height of covid paranoia, now the party is over. The main topic of conversation on the flight deck these days is "where are you going?" This is not idle chatter, in many cases the families have already left HK. What has been started by these pilot haters cannot be stopped now, decisions have been made.
The incompetence of these people will be shown if/when HK ever opens up to the world. All those shiny, expensive assets parked in the desert will stay parked. Our competitors will eat up our market share, slots will be lost.
All of this could have been avoided by meaningful discussions with the pilot body at the start of the pandemic. No sign or be fired bs, open dialogue to make meaningful concessions to help the business.
Oh well...

[Sam Ting Wong]

You are all wrong.

From a business point of view it was the right decision to cease the moment and to lower the costs.

Cathay will increase the package ( by very small increments) in order to meet the demand, if necessary. Hint: the amount required is much lower than you think.

Nobody knows the pace of recovery, future airline size and traffic numbers.

But all other airlines have the very same problem. EK cold-blooded fired staff, will they return? How much cheaper is it to live in Singapore? Turkish Airlines wages got eaten up by a worthless currency, will you accept a contract in Lira ever again? Or ask former contract pilots in Asia and the rest of the world about their feelings toward their employer. Or anyone at HK Airlines.

Consider the hundreds of CX 777 pilots who got paid with no work for years. Are they going to be loyal and grateful employees in the future? Ha.

The loss of trust and good will almost doesn't matter.

Only romantic idiots have trust in an employer, regardless which one it is.

The numbers work for you or they don't. And Cathay will simply pay + X % compared to EK etc, as they always used to.

Eventually, mainland pilots will be allowed to work for CX, but until then recruitment will be from SA, Oz, India and Europe.

Check the wages on offer in these countries and you will understand why they will come. Ask yourself why certain individuals even can't let go long after they left CX..

Hull loss? Check the safety record of low cost airlines. Wake up. The industry has changed for good. Pilots will be mediocre educated (and paid) low-level employees, recruited from lower income regions.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Frank, point taken. I don't know what package will be required to keep pilots like yourself. True. As you said, time will tell. My point is: they don't need you or me anymore. I don't see panic nor an immediate emergency, as we speak they still have hundreds too many, there is, right now, no shortage at all.And don't forget, they have the data, we don't. They know how many applicants, they know in what order they want to increase frequency etc. And if the package is too low, then they increase it by a 5000$ steps until it is sufficient. They win in the end, by slowly approaching the market price from below ( if necessary at all) they will get us for the best price possible. Smart.

[Sam Ting Wong]

You could be right in the end, as you said time will tell. Hard to say especially since one would have to compare the higher wage costs over years (!) with "lost opportunities". If it was my airline I would have let go the entire 777 fleet and half the Airbus fleet on unpaid leave indefinitely about 1,5 years ago. I would not have paid inactive based guys for years. I also would have stopped housing Jan 2021. Training department is way to powerful in Cathay, chop all the nonsense evaluation command sims or however they are called. Replace it with a cup of tea with the Chief pilot and a 5 minute review of your training record. Cut the stupid output of cringe-worthy safety and training videos and cut the yearly new decision make tool rubbish etc etc. These guys produce work in order to be important, I would cut the third floor by half or better outsource the whole thing to CAE.

I personally do not think it is feasible nor smart to run an airline on a massive over-capacity, possibly for years, given that China's Covid-exit policy and consumer behaviour is totally unknown. Once clear you re-recruit and pay whatever is needed.

Willie Walsh's opinion on that matter I found quite amusing:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10919999/amp/Ex-British-Airways-boss-Willie-Walsh-lays-Grant-Shapps-handling-holiday-chaos.html

My only direct critique of your position would be that your perspective appears to me rather self-centric. Just because we and our circle of friends don't find COS18 attractive enough doesn't mean it is not attractive in general. Not many from SA have left, and basically zero locals, as an example.

[Piet Lood]

you are all wrong.


😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[Cavallier]

I thought their response during the recent ‘teams call’ quite telling, when asked “How do you even intend to interview, sim check and medically asses the candidates within the current restrictions in Hong Kong ?” The answer was that it was a good question and they are continually assessing scenarios with third party providers but we realise it will be problematic”

The Cav

[Starbear]

You could be right in the end, as you said time will tell. Hard to say especially since one would have to compare the higher wage costs over years (!) with "lost opportunities". If it was my airline I would have let go the entire 777 fleet and half the Airbus fleet on unpaid leave indefinitely about 1,5 years ago. I would not have paid inactive based guys for years. I also would have stopped housing Jan 2021. Training department is way to powerful in Cathay, chop all the nonsense evaluation command sims or however they are called. Replace it with a cup of tea with the Chief pilot and a 5 minute review of your training record. Cut the stupid output of cringe-worthy safety and training videos and cut the yearly new decision make tool rubbish etc etc. These guys produce work in order to be important, I would cut the third floor by half or better outsource the whole thing to CAE.

I personally do not think it is feasible nor smart to run an airline on a massive over-capacity, possibly for years, given that China's Covid-exit policy and consumer behaviour is totally unknown. Once clear you re-recruit and pay whatever is needed.

Willie Walsh's opinion on that matter I found quite amusing:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10919999/amp/Ex-British-Airways-boss-Willie-Walsh-lays-Grant-Shapps-handling-holiday-chaos.html

My only direct critique of your position would be that your perspective appears to me rather self-centric. Just because we and our circle of friends don't find COS18 attractive enough doesn't mean it is not attractive in general. Not many from SA have left, and basically zero locals, as an example.



Just ensure that you also read the comments in your quoted article, for an entirely different and probably more accurate viewpoint.

[Diogenes.]

What is the size of the 'Checker's Allowance'? When I left it was a corporate secret.

[sorvad]

Just ensure that you also read the comments in your quoted article, for an entirely different and probably more accurate viewpoint.
Never, Ever read the comments section of the Daily Mail….That way be Dragons.

[Starbear]

Never, Ever read the comments section of the Daily Mail….That way be Dragons.

Its the only part I read.

[sorvad]

Its the only part I read.
Best steer clear of the whole contemptible rag completely.

[Starbear]

Best steer clear of the whole contemptible rag completely.
That I entirely agree with but obviously, like me, you have a sneaky look now and again? And to be fair it was not me who introduced the DM into this thread, merely expanded upon it. I do subscribe to the DT and Guardian (did I spell that correctly?) but would not give a farthing to access the DM. However I do like to seek a broad view and even still have a free look at that comic SCMP at times.

[Free Flight]

[ I do subscribe to the DT and Guardian (did I spell that correctly?) but would not give a farthing to access the DM. [/QUOTE]

You made me chuckle!🤣
I have happy memories of school when our English master always referred to “The Grauniad” on the basis that they couldn’t even spell their masthead properly!

[Mill Worker]

They could probably solve the problem by offering positions to the hundreds of HK licenced Pilots they sacked. Their previous CoS, proper housing and a sign on bonus to compensate for their period of unemployment may be sufficient

[dabz]

They could probably solve the problem by offering positions to the hundreds of HK licenced Pilots they sacked. Their previous CoS, proper housing and a sign on bonus to compensate for their period of unemployment may be sufficient

And with a click of their fingers all these lovely increases to pay and benefits can be taken away.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice... I think CX pilots have been fooled quite a few times now!

[Bokpiel]

They could probably solve the problem by offering positions to the hundreds of HK licenced Pilots they sacked. Their previous CoS, proper housing and a sign on bonus to compensate for their period of unemployment may be sufficient

Are there any ex KA guys left willing to work for this place? I doubt it. Out of your CoS, housing and sign on bonus recommendations, only the last one is plausible. The jellyfish reminded everyone in the last FOP update that Cos18 is here to stay. And regarding proper housing, well let's not kid ourselves here...

Regarding HK opening up:

This ****hole is not opening up anytime soon (go familiarize yourselves with the new health secretary prick, not to mention mainland policy until forever = we are years away!) in terms of no quarantine, and when it finally does then it will be extremely slow progress which should favor CX with their lack of training capacity. Not that this would solve the training problem entirely, obviously.

In terms of attracting new pilots, CX will either have to lower their standards even more or raise the package. My bet is on the former.

[Weary traveller]

I don't know what all this fuss is about, nor how this benign thread could stretch to 2 pages... If Vietjet and other 'low wage' airlines can recruit pilots then of course CX will be able to. It's just a matter of changing your mindset about what exactly CX now is. You get what you pay for and any pilot or passenger that doesn't do their homework before choosing Cathay in the future will only have themselves to blame when things go pear shaped. It is not rocket science.

[allaru]

I have never lived or worked in Hong Kong but I am a regular inmate so my comments are therefore generic in nature and apply to the various expat pilot employers as well as Cathay. What company in its right mind thinks that they can give a 50% pay cut and expect people to hang around. They (the management) know that as pilots we cant just skip from one job to another like they can so they took a cheap shot and did what they did. Even a nincompoop with the mind of a six year old would realize that such a move would be completely irresponsible given the inevitable consequences that would shortly follow, ie finding pilots and then having to train them.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it appears that the education allowance is around 1/3 of what it would actually cost. If this is the case, what sort of desperate scum do they think we are. So they think a professional pilot is going to come to Kong Kong and fork out USD15k per child of their own money to top up the allowance while every banker, cook, BS manager and similar scammer gets it covered in full. I don't know what accommodation cost but looking at the allowance It doesn't even look remotely close to me so the same comment applies.

So they expect you to come to Hong Kong, a Hong Kong incidentally that is not the same Hong Kong as it once was, spend the best part if your life away from your home and family and live like a scum bag, put your kids in a communist local school and not save a penny. What planet are these people on!

If I were being invited to return I would demand full reinstatement of the original package and some, a lot more some, for being f%$ked around and insulted.

Should Cathay survive I think management are going to need a whole lot more than luck if they expect to find anyone. BTW I am available at twice the original A scale package adjusted for inflation.

Good luck.

[Diogenes.]

The point is, they didn't give everybody a 50% pay cut, 'wink, wink'.
Clearly, as nobody here knows or is prepared to reveal the size of the Checkers allowance, then it's a case of, 'say no more, say no more; wink, wink'.
The guards at the 'Cathay Prison Experiment' have always and will always solve any and all Swire cock-ups in exchange for reciprocated privileges.
WINK! WINK! :ok:

[cxflog]

The point is, they didn't give everybody a 50% pay cut, 'wink, wink'.
Clearly, as nobody here knows or is prepared to reveal the size of the Checkers allowance, then it's a case of, 'say no more, say no more; wink, wink'.
The guards at the 'Cathay Prison Experiment' have always and will always solve any and all Swire cock-ups in exchange for reciprocated privileges.
WINK! WINK! :ok:
Clearly you have no idea what you’re talking about. Are you even employed by Cx? Or maybe just love jumping on the anti-checker bandwagon…

A good mate of mine was an STC, he calculated his pay was cut by ~55% (including housing and schooling + medical). He resigned, and took an FO job at greener pastures. There are plenty of checkers and standards guys on the way out, if not gone already.

The size of the checkers allowance is known by anyone who has been at the company more than a few years :cool:

[Fac6]

A good mate of mine was an STC, he calculated his pay was cut by ~55% (including housing and schooling + medical). He resigned, and took an FO job at greener pastures.

If it is who I think it is, then that's a huge loss to CX. :ugh:

[Sam Ting Wong]

Emotionally, the reduction in pay is relevant. But after the adjustment pain comes inevitably a more sober and useful comparison. I don't believe a company is even able to act against moral codes, there is a legal framework and that is that. A company has no soul, it is an artificial construct in order to generate maximum profit. I find the entire discussion futile, of course the company will use every chance they have to get us cheaper. To expect anything else is to me highly naive. The only reason a company might want to appear as being "moral" is to achieve again more profit.
Anyway, for me, the achievable benchmark pay in whatever country you desire to live is in the end the most relevant factor. It just will take time for us to digest the new normal is my prediction. All the venting in the crew bus, all the angry outbursts in here, in the end it is down to what you can afford. Let's be honest here, a many senior pilots could simply afford to retire. Many others will not have that luxury.

I think Weary Traveller got it right, eventually a shortage would have to appear at LCA rather than Cathay.

PS All the best, Frank. Hope you find a good alternative.

[chards]

Emotionally, the reduction in pay is relevant. But after the adjustment pain comes inevitably a more sober and useful comparison. I don't believe a company is even able to act against moral codes, there is a legal framework and that is that. A company has no soul, it is an artificial construct in order to generate maximum profit. I find the entire discussion futile, of course the company will use every chance they have to get us cheaper. To expect anything else is to me highly naive. The only reason a company might want to appear as being "moral" is to achieve again more profit.
Anyway, for me, the achievable benchmark pay in whatever country you desire to live is in the end the most relevant factor. It just will take time for us to digest the new normal is my prediction. All the venting in the crew bus, all the angry outbursts in here, in the end it is down to what you can afford. Let's be honest here, a many senior pilots could simply afford to retire. Many others will not have that luxury.

I think Weary Traveller got it right, eventually a shortage would have to appear at LCA rather than Cathay.

PS All the best, Frank. Hope you find a good alternative.

You keep thinking it’s all about the $$ STW. I and many others are leaving this place and even if cos 99 were offered tomorrow we’d still be heading out the door. This place is toxic, I’m leaving to a job on way less money but in the knowledge that the goalposts are not going to change at the whim of some middle manager or govt official. It’s about way more than the money now, clearly your posts demonstrate that it’s only about the money to you. Each to their own

[Sam Ting Wong]

Of course the Covid restrictions have to be included in the equation. Maybe for you the pricetag of freedom is so high Cathay will never be able to make it up, but not everybody will have these strict preferences. In general, more money will always result in more demand. What you are describing is a non-elastic relationship, very rare in reality.

PS When I say it is about money I am NOT saying it doesn't make sense to accept less somewhere else. I am saying that your personal price is not met by the supply curently on offer in HK.

PSS I hope your goalposts won't move. My personal experience tells me this is not very likely.

[chards]

Of course the Covid restrictions have to be included in the equation. Maybe for you the pricetag of freedom is so high Cathay will never be able to make it up, but not everybody will have these strict preferences. In general, more money will always result in more demand. What you are describing is a non-elastic relationship, very rare in reality.

PS When I say it is about money I am NOT saying it doesn't make sense to accept less somewhere else. I am saying that your personal price is not met by the supply curently on offer in HK.

Once again, money money money. You are wrong, half the pages of our handbook is crap that is one sided and not binding on the company and they have nothing to do with $$

[Oasis]

lets list all the problems. I will start.

- unable to commute
- unable to travel on vacation
- unable to see family on a regular basis
- stuck in hotel room on a layover
- silly amounts of paperwork to do due to covid rules.
- long delays at no extra pay, whole days work for a tpe turnaround
- frequent covid tests
- vindictive rostering that will change your roster to keep you below the 'free' monthly hour zone, can't complain about that anymore as it's not in cos-18
- late rosters
- basings are gone
- temp basings were shambles
- no sympathy from cx
- no flexibility from cx to make life livable.
- no attempt to stem the exodus
- by not seeming to care for loss of 100s of years of experience, experience levels will drop in the flight deck, making it all round just harder work.
- unsure if cx will be sold or will even be able to survive.
- morale is very low, looks like anyone with options is leaving, those that do not will stay and will be miserable.
- all this for less money

who can add a few more?

[1200firm]

Compulsory, uncompensated mini closed loops and quarantine for all passenger flights.
A tracking app that must be illegal in most countries.
AND.....prison is back for you, your crew, and your family if you, or someone on your crew, tests positive.

[stevieboy330]

Seriously, WTF are any of you guys still doing there ?

[Oasis]

Seriously, WTF are any of you guys still doing there ?

Why are you here? And if you already left, go bother someone else.

[Gnadenburg]

Oasis

I’m ex-KA and I come here weekly, often in astonishment, to see how you are all going and to see what you are all bitching about now. I did almost 20 years in HK and half of my non-aviation friends have left in the last 18 months. It is intriguing, it is sad and how the leftover pilots have been treated horrendous.

[jimsmitty01]

the only reason to stay is for the $$$$!

oh wait...

[mngmt mole]

It is indeed sad to see how a once great airline (I am referring CX, but Dragonair was also a wonderful company) has been brought to a shell of its former self by truly the worst and most self-serving management group in the industry. They took it from what it once was, a place where the employees were motivated, loyal and dedicated (and passionate) to a company that is now lacking in all of those necessary sentiments. A tragedy that will eventually be highlighted in business school as a case study in management failure.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Do passionate pilots in a great airline fly an ILS differently?

[Busbuoy]

Do "passionate" pilots in a "great airline" fly an ILS differently?
Over the years I reckon CX and KA crews of old would've completed more flights in difficult conditions than industry average. Safely, expeditiously and without fanfare because they were well-recruited, experienced and well-motivated pilots (and FEs in the day). So if we extend the narrow terms of your "fly an ILS" to the more general and perhaps more appropriate "conduct an airline operation"' then I think, conclusively, yes.

[SaulGoodman]

Over the years I reckon CX and KA crews of old would've completed more flights in difficult conditions than industry average. Safely, expeditiously and without fanfare because they were well-recruited, experienced and well-motivated pilots (and FEs in the day). So if we extend the narrow terms of your "fly an ILS" to the more general and perhaps more appropriate "conduct an airline operation"' then I think, conclusively, yes.

Why do you believe so? What were the so called more “difficult” conditions a CX/KA pilot had to endure compared to other companies?

[Busbuoy]

Why do you believe so? What were the so called more “difficult” conditions a CX/KA pilot had to endure compared to other companies?
You misunderstand me sir. The CX/KA of old had a reputation for getting flights done when technical and operational challenges thwarted others.

[Oasis]

Why do you believe so? What were the so called more “difficult” conditions a CX/KA pilot had to endure compared to other companies?

You tell me why it's the same as other regions..

[Busbuoy]

Yeah, what he said.....

[SaulGoodman]

You tell me why it's the same as other regions..

Did I touch a sensitive subject? Honestly I couldn’t think of any reason why flying for CX/KA would be more challenging when you compare it to similar companies. But please enlighten me.

[lucille]

Do passionate pilots in a great airline fly an ILS differently?

Indeed they do. The Approach button has to be caressed with love and passion for the autopilot to respond in kind.

[MENELAUS]

Did I touch a sensitive subject? Honestly I couldn’t think of any reason why flying for CX/KA would be more challenging when you compare it to similar companies. But please enlighten me.

Because flying in to that aviation cesspit that is the PRC on a daily basis for the KA guys was not without its challenges, and the approaches in to the two airports in Hong Kong, and that’s not allowing for the extremes of typhoon conditions, were not on occasion that easy.
CX and KA have had their moments; no autopilot Go Arounds, attempts to fly the 25L ILS at 1500’ because they were “stable” however in the main they did a pretty good job. Compared to some other carriers. A few of which left aircraft in the harbour or upside down on taxiways.

[Oasis]

Did I touch a sensitive subject? Honestly I couldn’t think of any reason why flying for CX/KA would be more challenging when you compare it to similar companies. But please enlighten me.

It’s not sensitive, but thank you for your consideration.
Go ahead and explain why we have the same issues in the region as anywhere else in the world.

You brought it up, so make your point. I might agree with you if you make a good case.

[Freehills]

Because flying in to that aviation cesspit that is the PRC on a daily basis for the KA guys was not without its challenges, and the approaches in to the two airports in Hong Kong, and that’s not allowing for the extremes of typhoon conditions, were not on occasion that easy.
CX and KA have had their moments; no autopilot Go Arounds, attempts to fly the 25L ILS at 1500’ because they were “stable” however in the main they did a pretty good job. Compared to some other carriers. A few of which left aircraft in the harbour or upside down on taxiways.

PRC pilots manage it (flying in the PRC) with, frankly, an excellent safety record.

[SaulGoodman]

It’s not sensitive, but thank you for your consideration.
Go ahead and explain why we have the same issues in the region as anywhere else in the world.

You brought it up, so make your point. I might agree with you if you make a good case.

it was Busbuoy who was claiming that pilots in CX/KA have completed more flights in difficult conditions. I see no valid reason why but please enlighten me.

Having said this I am not disagreeing with you Oasis on the fact that you guys have different issues compared to crews in other reasons. But having flown on many of the same routes as CX/KA but also many more regions, terrain, warzones etc I am simply wondering why the CX/KA flight conditions are more difficult.

[Sam Ting Wong]

In what way is the environment we operate in relevant?

[Flex88]

In what way is the environment we operate in relevant?

Languages, accents, typhoons, sh*t ATC, lung destroying Cat III smog....... Naw, it's the exact same everywhere right ?? STW = fool .

[MENELAUS]

PRC pilots manage it (flying in the PRC) with, frankly, an excellent safety record.


Yes well given that the particular regime in question seems to have extreme difficulty with opacity and the truth ( 2 and a half years on and we still don’t know how a virus evolved that’s killed several million people and wiped bilions off economies worldwide) who knows how excellent their safety record actually is ? That said I’ll pass on the punitive, pejorative , spy in the cab style of pilot management. And anyone who has spent any time at all flying in or even through the PRC ( which I have ) knows that a) it’s a pia and b) is an accident waiting to happen.

[MENELAUS]

The crucial point is that you guys are willing to work in this environment. That is all that counts. Nobody cares if you like it, if it makes you happy, you think it is more difficult or unhealthy. It is not relevant, not even for you or would not do it.

I no longer do it. And glad of it. And the only place I want to see your beloved PRC from is from the comfort of business class at 12600 metres. Assuming they’re still not playing silly bastards for levels.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Languages, accents, typhoons, sh*t ATC, lung destroying Cat III smog....... Naw, it's the exact same everywhere right ?? STW = fool .

All these factors, true or not, are irrelevant as long as you do the job. Nobody is interested if you like it, if you are happy in HK,how difficult or hard you perceive the flying. Nobody.

[Oasis]

False!

I’m interested! All kidding aside.
Joining cx used to imply you met a certain standard.

Today I read the next generation of pilots in this airline will not even have to do a sim evaluation, just zoom call your interview and show up for training chaps!

Ah well, we’ll see what happens, I hope you’re right, I really do.

[Gaisha]

All these factors, true or not, are irrelevant as long as you do the job. Nobody is interested if you like it, if you are happy in HK,how difficult or hard you perceive the flying. Nobody.

not true. I care. The company you work for/where you are based/ operating environment/ etc all play a part in making the decision to join or not. HK is a very different place compared to what it was 3 years ago and much less appealing with the reduced salary. Add inflation in the mix and there is very little reason to upend your family and move to a city that no longer offers the benefits it once did. So yes… many care !

[MLKNWL]

I would still dream of a job at CX though... It's a pity for the culture change indeed.

[Cury Lamb]

Well before all these ex Comair Zaffers come out to Hongkers to rescue CXi, they might want to read this first:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x726/7f4efebe_604f_4e79_8e76_674b26f75d03_cb7c75666d4866f1dc24caf c6f4be19af1e5d15f.jpeg
https://www.mingtiandi.com/real-estate/crelist/hong-kong-named-priciest-city-for-expats-and-more-asia-real-estate-headlines/

[fire wall]

I would not go back even if they offered COS 08.
I don't trust them not to meddle with the terms again and have zero respect for the leadership, government, corporate and flt ops.
Ive flown with some of the occupants on the 3rd floor when they were FO’s and wouldn’t trust some of them to drive a car let alone lead a group of experienced professionals.
Life is not a dress rehearsal. You get one shot only and I was fortunate my “shot” was during the good times for CX/HKG. Most of the South African’s I have met through flying are fine aviators and intelligent men. They know spoilt fruit when they see it and as such the latest drive for the bottom of the barrel will yield the desperate and incompetent.
There are good times are still to be found in aviation , just elsewhere.
Keep looking and do not sell yourself short.

[Rie]

I would not go back even if they offered COS 08.
latest drive for the bottom of the barrel will yield the desperate and incompetent.
I just hope the ones they bring in are mature people who realise the situation on the ground in HK and don't come in expecting life to be a party anymore. Just remember... Don't staff travel on a sick day. Precedent has already been set by a Saffer doing that.

[veryoldchinahand]

More Saffers' on the way ex Comair -no work in SA

[pill]

Purple ties for all would be my guess. All sold with shiny pictures of 748s and 350s in the back ground.

[cxflog]

Another very experienced 777 STC just gave their notice. When will the bleeding stop?

[Dilbert68]

Another very experienced 777 STC just gave their notice. When will the bleeding stop?

It won't stop. This company is failing right along with the city.

The pay and benefits under COS 18 are insufficient to keep qualified pilots, especially when you consider all the Covid BS we are forced to put up with. You might keep a few of the experienced pilots if you offered month on/month off but I suspect that most have made their decisions to retire early or take another job in their home country.
Congrats to the GMA and her ilk for destroying this airline. Your disdain and contempt for pilots will be the end of this place. Who is going to train the 800 new cadets? You?

[Oli777]

Purple ties for all would be my guess. All sold with shiny pictures of 748s and 350s in the back ground.

If you mean HKE, then their adverts say only "Hong Kong Permanent Resident"

[Cury Lamb]

Just wait until October, when ARAPA ends. It’s gonna be OPEN SEASON! The jellyfish must be having nightmares already :ok:

[Sam Ting Wong]

Like waiting for Godot.

[RAT Management]

It won't stop. This company is failing right along with the city.

The pay and benefits under COS 18 are insufficient to keep qualified pilots, especially when you consider all the Covid BS we are forced to put up with. You might keep a few of the experienced pilots if you offered month on/month off but I suspect that most have made their decisions to retire early or take another job in their home country.
Congrats to the GMA and her ilk for destroying this airline. Your disdain and contempt for pilots will be the end of this place. Who is going to train the 800 new cadets? You?

Plenty of volunteers on 40% less pay putting their hand up to become training captain's in return for 5% pay back. No special deals for trainers just a nice title and an insurance policy that you will only be demoted to captain when you are unstable on your approach.

[VforVENDETTA]

What's going on behind the scenes at cx city:

The plan was 60% of normal ops by September. Planning said cannot, not enough pilots. Revised plan was 50% of normal ops by end of the year. Planning now says not enough pilots for that either and can't recruit pilots either. So now again revised plan, 30% cut to the 50% by end of the year plan. It has already been admitted openly internally that their plans are not achievable due to lack of pilots even after downsizing the plans several times already. They're also having no luck hiring in any department to restore operations back towards normal level.

Panic has set in at board level. Eventually it will have to he admitted that cathay can't restore operations due to inability to retain or hire pilots, publicly. Or apparently any employees in general as well.

It must be painful to be an employer without any credibility having lost the confidence of long time loyal employees forever due to one stupid arrognt mistake at a crucial moment for which cathay will very possibly pay the ultimate price for.

The harder and harsher cathay falls the better for the pilot profession. It will keep other airlines to even think about doing the same to their pilot workforce in the future. It seems cathay has finally found the magic line that they should have never crossed, and from which there's no going back.

There's nothing cathay can ever do now to regain credibility. They'll have to pay more than they did before to get people risking their careers to work at cathay even on short term basis.

Well done GH. This was all GH's baby project.

This is what happens when there's a waste of oxygen CEO in charge. He can be persuaded to agree to this kind of disastrous action for which cathay is already in deep deep sh!t now unable to execute a recovery.

[pill]

If you mean HKE, then their adverts say only "Hong Kong Permanent Resident"
Take a quick look at POS18 section 2.2
Couldn't be stated any clearer.

[ACMS]

My old job back on the base at more pay, then I’ll consider it……….

[Sam Ting Wong]

No sign-on bonus??

[BuzzBox]

No sign-on bonus??

Yep, that too….

[smogluver]

Great post V

[mngmt mole]

V. The most on point post i've read in a long long time. Cathay was subsumed by a bean counter mentality that took it to level 12. No accounting for the true nature of the professionals who they ultimately relied upon to keep the airline functioning, and sickeningly betrayed . More importantly, no accounting for the fragile reputational legacy that kept the "name" of CX at the pinnacle of the industry. Now squandered and lost. You are correct...there is probably no coming back. They never foresaw that their own mendacious tenancies would be outdone and consumed by that of the HK Govt (and the PRC). The perfect storm, and now only wreckage is left. Sadly not even at the bottom yet, a place that will surely be recognised as one of the great business and societal tragedies of the modern age. I can only stand in stunned silence as to the complete devastation caused by a coterie of the worst and most self serving people this industry has ever brought together in one place at one time.

[Sam Ting Wong]

I fear it is wishful thinking and emotional reasoning of V. There is no such dramatic shortage. As we speak still hundreds sitting idle or on minimum hours. As someone rightly pointed out before, if Cathay can't recruit, how could LCC's in Asia then? The most important factor regarding pay is the benchmark. Not inflation, not cost of living, not difficulty of task, not days in quarantine.

No airline in the world can be instantly ready for a rebound at an unknown point in the future. Impossible.Hence the worldwide (!) problems with cancellations etc. Everywhere the wheels came to a halt and are now slowly spooling up again. Except in Hong Kong, where still nobody knows what insane government plan will come next. And of course it will take time to expand again should Beijing come to senses one day. Nothing to do with pilot shortage per se.

PS Mole, it is the precise job of management to cut any employee until he boils of anger but juuuust still does the job he is told to do. I believe they will succeed, simply because of the even worse market elsewhere. I hope I am wrong.

[Busbuoy]

, it is the precise job of management to cut any employee until he boils of anger but juuuust still does the job he is told to do.
That is the most inane frogsh!t I have ever had the misfortune to read! What complete and utter twaddle...

[Gweilo747]

My old job back on the base at more pay, then I’ll consider it……….

You suffering from Stockholm Syndrome?

[Wombaticus]

STW, Next time you are at an outport, please ask the ground staff what they want and then ask them why they can't have it. Report back here if you don't mind.

[Sam Ting Wong]

I don't get your point, but in general you guys totally overestimate the interest in what any minion employee wants. Nobody cares, wake up.

Consider the nature of the business. You stop a route for years and it will take many months to open it up again. Selling tickets, promotion,getting the aircraft out of storage, renegotiating traffic rights, slots, handling etc etc. You guys are too self-centric. Pilots are just a small piece of the whole.

[Piet Lood]

You are all wrong.


But I thought we all are wrong?

[Wombaticus]

STW, the conversation may go something like this. "Hello Ground staff at xxx my name is STW, what do you want? "Thank you for asking STW we NEED more flights" then ask them why they can't have more flights like this "Oh interesting, why can't you have more flights?" see what they say and report back here please.

[pill]

STW, your talking about a free market with no outside influencers. You give no value to a HKG ATPL with 4000 hours and 500 in company aircraft. Your not taking into account that it takes a cadet 8-10 years to get to that experience level the way we log SO and FO relief time. You assume a mobility of work force that doesn't exist at the moment.
On a different note, I counted back 50 or so of my last conversations on WhatsApp. 12 guys gone, or resigned already, 3 say going by end of the year and 16 staying or I've got no idea what they're up to. Lets call it half leaving, and this sample would average about the 20 years of service. The head of the mother company wasn't sniffing around the 3rd/9th floor last week handing out Freddo frogs. Suspect he was asking WTF is going on with his peoples investments capability to spool up when required.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Your echo chamber of whatsap contacts may not be representative. How many locals are in your contact list?

There are hundreds of possible reasons why you just can't pull a flight out of a hat when you need it. To assume it is definitely pilot shortage is hybris in my opinion.

Yes, you are right the HK pilot market is unique. But apparently the company is gambling on enough staying and recruiting sufficiently in the future. I don't believe for a second experience counts for them. It's about costs and bodies in flight deck seats for X number of aircraft.

The company can hire anyone they like, captains, contracted guys, fast track first officer, anybody. Again, if LCC's in Asia can do it Cathay will be able to do so as well.

They know how big they want the airline to be, we don't. They have all the data to the fifth decimal behind the comma, we have whats app groups.

Don't you see the fallacy here? You want it to be true so it must be true.

[VforVENDETTA]

I'm simply reporting what the board of directors has been told when asked why restoration plans keep falling apart. They've been told we don't have enough pilots and can't seem to recruit or stop the attrition. The 60% normal ops by September plan was set 4 months ago and were still 2 months away from it and it has been decided to be unachievable. 50% by end of the year is still 6 months away and yet already decided to be un achievable. Nothing instantaneous here. I don't see news articles about "cathay cant stop pilot exodus..." and cathay city interview GH being confronted about historical attrition and inability to recruit and admitting "perhaps cos18 is not adequate for everyone..." about any other airline, even Emirates. But I do about cathay. The writing is on the wall, even without confidential behind the scenes information about the board panicking due to inability to execute restoration plans. Grey Hose himself, the engineer and executioner of cos 18 has just publicly said perhaps cos18 is not for everyone. If that's not admission of defeat and F'up I don't know what is. Are you not aware of the bloomberg news article about the press event at Cathay city just recently?

Watch for an announcement to raise cos18 pay to prove it all. If all is well as you say why would they do thatdoit will of course be too little too late but it will be proof of their desperation and panic.

Rest of your delusion is equally uninformed but I don't have time for it.

[cxflog]

Your echo chamber of whatsap contacts may not be representative. How many locals are in your contact list?

There are hundreds of possible reasons why you just can't pull a flight out of a hat when you need it. To assume it is definitely pilot shortage is pure hybris and arrogance.

The company can hire anyone they like, captains, contracted guys, fast track first officer, anybody. Again, if LCC's in Asia can do it Cathay will be able to do so as well.

They know how big they want the airline to be, we don't. They have all the data to the fifth decimal behind the comma, we have whats app groups.

Don't you see the fallacy here? You want it to be true so it must be true.
I can’t tell if you’re taking the piss or not. Or is CX paying you every time you post on here? My goodness…

[Sam Ting Wong]

To this date, for the past 20 years, any prediction of crew shortage in this very forum was plain wrong. Each and every time.So who is taking the piss?

Of course they might raise the pay a little. As I said, just enough to crew whatever their plan is. I am not holding my breath it will be much to talk about.

Vendetta, you do anything but " simply report'. Your conclusions are exaggerated and wishful thinking. You read way too much into any mail or press release. Every word is a lie, an attempt to deceive, to distract. Management is warfare by other means. Machiavellian characters playing their dirty game. Bloomberg article by Denny? Give me a break please.

Trust me, if they really would be panicking about a pilot shortage we would notice first.

[Wombaticus]

STW
I don't expect you to know what I want, could we start with what we all don't want. "Missed opportunities"

[rhoshamboe]

Your echo chamber of whatsap contacts may not be representative. How many locals are in your contact list?

There are hundreds of possible reasons why you just can't pull a flight out of a hat when you need it. To assume it is definitely pilot shortage is hybris in my opinion.

Yes, you are right the HK pilot market is unique. But apparently the company is gambling on enough staying and recruiting sufficiently in the future. I don't believe for a second experience counts for them. It's about costs and bodies in flight deck seats for X number of aircraft.

The company can hire anyone they like, captains, contracted guys, fast track first officer, anybody. Again, if LCC's in Asia can do it Cathay will be able to do so as well.

They know how big they want the airline to be, we don't. They have all the data to the fifth decimal behind the comma, we have whats app groups.

Don't you see the fallacy here? You want it to be true so it must be true.

It pains me to say it guys, but he's 100% spot on in one respect. As far as the company is concerned we are still 7-800 pilots heavy. They don't give a **** about people leaving.
Now we all know that it's the numbers it's the crew composition that's going to bite them. And it will. But you'll have to be willing to stick around for a couple of years to reap the benefits.

[Wombaticus]

Correct, we don't know what the shareholders want for this business, we can only assume, and the only assumption I can make is expansion.

[RAT Management]

As much as I want to say STW is completely wrong. I am afraid much of what he says is very correct and valid. The other opinions are what our ego's want to believe is true. I want to believe it's true, just like I want to believe things will go back to normal soon. But the pure fact is a lot of what is being stated is complete fantasy. Especially when Margaret Thatcher was quoted as saying you want workers to be rebelling to know that you are not overpaying. I don't see any rebellion just volunteers to come join, volunteers to stay ( yeah sure some are leaving... But not enough), volunteers to train ( if ever it was a crappy deal now is the time, but no shortage of wannabes), volunteers to do FDAP and all manner of free stuff. When this stops, maybe then STW will be wrong. But until then a spade is a spade. I so wish it wasn't!

[Wombaticus]

I don't get your point, but in general you guys totally overestimate the interest in what any minion employee wants. Nobody cares, wake up.

Consider the nature of the business. You stop a route for years and it will take many months to open it up again. Selling tickets, promotion,getting the aircraft out of storage, renegotiating traffic rights, slots, handling etc etc. You guys are too self-centric. Pilots are just a small piece of the whole.

Thanks STW, I am glad our "minions" will be able to take comfort in the fact that this issue will be sorted within months.

[Zi Peng]

I am not sure we are short or at least very short.
They are covering the bus with recruits from local airlines and pushing the 74 a bit, the 777 is dead at the moment and can still send a few back.
A few more leaving after school finished in the next few months, the rest at the beginning of next year, probably a few more when the right jobs come up.
Then maybe they will assess the situation, also they historically just react.
International pax travel won’t come back anytime soon and when it will not only it won’t be the same but people will probably be flying Turkish, KLM and the rest that served them much better than CX during Covid.

[KABOY]

Swire tactic 101, introduce a new contract to attract the talent, they have been doing this for 30 years.

Why explode your wages cost when you have 2000 pilots sitting in HK sucking up COS18.

Must be time for COS22 (COS18 with enhanced benefits), but the usual caveats to screw when required..

[Oli777]

Swire 101, lease aircraft because interest rates are low, oops... now interest rates are through the roof and repayments cost a fortune. Oh well, in 24 days time the music stops and the board members won't have seats to sit on.

[Kitsune]

Wait until the Ba5 variant hits China, as it will. You ain’t seen nothing yet when it comes to lockdowns… those who can leave, leave now.

[cxflog]

Wait until the Ba5 variant hits China, as it will. You ain’t seen nothing yet when it comes to lockdowns… those who can leave, leave now.
Best believe I’m on my way. My 3 month’s is almost up, then I’ll be out of here as fast as I came!

Oh and you can keep the furniture…

[veryoldchinahand]

Oli 777 you may wish as do others here that seem to be on some sort of delusional universe based on hating Cathay that the fleet is leased but of course as is most of the other nonsense it is just not the reality.
2 X A350s leased 30+ others owned etc etc.
Perhaps time to give it a rest fellows

[Oli777]

Oli 777 you may wish as do others here that seem to be on some sort of delusional universe based on hating Cathay that the fleet is leased but of course as is most of the other nonsense it is just not the reality.
2 X A350s leased 30+ others owned etc etc.
Perhaps time to give it a rest fellows


You sir are completely wrong with your figures.. please leave the boardroom

[veryoldchinahand]

I wonder sometimes what you fellows are smoking that produces the nonsense that you feel compelled to post here
Cathay A350 fleet = 43 aircraft (9 parked) +4 on order
Owned = 41 Leased = 2 aircraft namely B-LXK and B-LRA

[Turbine Overheat]

It’s been a while since I looked at it, but it’s always worth following the trail through to have a look at the origins of the leasing company.

[Oli777]

I wonder sometimes what you fellows are smoking that produces the nonsense that you feel compelled to post here
Cathay A350 fleet = 43 aircraft (9 parked) +4 on order
Owned = 41 Leased = 2 aircraft namely B-LXK and B-LRA


I got my information from the latest Cathay Pacific financial report, page 73

If you can drop your attitude and whatever nonsense you are smoking, then please tell me w​​​here did you get your information from?

[Rico_Corp]

I got my information from the latest Cathay Pacific financial report, page 73

If you can drop your attitude and whatever nonsense you are smoking, then please tell me w​​​here did you get your information from?

Oli777, the same document (p. 17) shows Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd leasing 31 aircraft out of a fleet size of 193 aircraft. The figure of 31 includes 5 defunct Dragon narrow body aircraft and as noted, just 2 leased A350. A fairly impressive rate of aircraft ownership don’t you think?

[Wombaticus]

For the last 30 years evey time there has been a perceived pilot shortage it has been swiftly followed by a massive collapse in demand which has put the balance of power firmly with the employer. Will it be different this time?

[Oli777]

Oli777, the same document (p. 17) shows Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd leasing 31 aircraft out of a fleet size of 193 aircraft. The figure of 31 includes 5 defunct Dragon narrow body aircraft and as noted, just 2 leased A350. A fairly impressive rate of aircraft ownership don’t you think?

Page 73, it's written clearly

[PPRuNeUser0163]

For the last 30 years evey time there has been a perceived pilot shortage it has been swiftly followed by a massive collapse in demand which has put the balance of power firmly with the employer. Will it be different this time?

Hard to put demand and Hong Kong in one sentence.. even when the flying comes back to a double digit % of pre covid capacity which is at least a year off by the looks of things with closed borders, the current pilot numbers won’t be able to service this.

[veryoldchinahand]

Oli77 The answer to your question = a Cathay source earlier this week.
I have been told though that 99% the same information is also freely available on the internet.

I have not checked leasing of the whole fleet as it is fluid with many older aircraft being returned to the leasers month by month with another ex dragon being returned this week and some aircraft on loan to other airlines.
If you have the urge to post more deliberately misleading information presumably with the aim of of painting a falsely negative picture of the health of the airline then I suggest that you perhaps find a more productive pursuit as you and several others posting the same sort of nonsense over the past months, with presumably the one intention of destroying the general perception of the airline, are in danger of turning this important forum into a dangerous Trumpesk comedy thread.

Demand - Boston and daily NY and LA back this month as well as flights to the sub-continent with most passenger flights now full both ways and several with waiting lists.

[cxflog]

Now now children, no need to yell at each other. It’s not that hard to post sources.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1167x931/fc474158_2871_40ab_969e_4d80be0edfed_e7f6a2e7e85a2a3406d333e b1a0f924b96321538.jpeg

[VforVENDETTA]

What percentage of fleets are owned vs leased is irrelevant to the subject of this thread.

The issue is do they have enough pilots to restore operations according to the goals they set themselves based on market demand and recovery. The answer is no. They have already lowered their goals 3 times, despite the big announcement and advertising campaigns of pilot recruitment drive, at the end of 2021, 7-8 months ago if I remember correctly.

Planning department has come back 3 times already saying "we don't have enough pilots to achieve this..." and they're panicking about this. Recruitmemt has said cannot recruit, no biters. This paragraph isn't my personal 2 cents.

Why do you think Grey Hose the architect of contract cancelation said in a public press interview at Cathay city "perhaps cos18 isn't competitive for everyone"? Because they have no concern about the resignation/retention of pilots?

Ironically if mentally ill hong kong just opened up allowing unrestricted pax & cargo flights back to pre-covid levels, Cathay would be unable to ramp up anywhere near that level because of no pilots. This would be a disaster of a bad news from stock holder point of view. Cathay right now does not want a rapid reopening of hk.

Wether leased or owned aircraft sit idling, these are very expensive assets not being utilized when market supports their use and there isn't enough manpower to support using them. Let's see what the stockholders think of a company unable to use assets when market supports their use.

How many leased vs owned is irrelevant. Another subject thread perhaps

Btw, I totally understand those of you without other options don't want to hear the negative. Its ugly and depressing to face the bad situation you're in without an option if this bad present option comes to an end. It's depressing, I get it. But don't get angry because reality is not what you want to hear. You want to live in a fantasy world, to pretend things are OK. Admitting how bad reality is, well... reality.

[Oli777]

Oli77 The answer to your question = a Cathay source earlier this week.
I have been told though that 99% the same information is also freely available on the internet.

I have not checked leasing of the whole fleet as it is fluid with many older aircraft being returned to the leasers month by month with another ex dragon being returned this week and some aircraft on loan to other airlines.
If you have the urge to post more deliberately misleading information presumably with the aim of of painting a falsely negative picture of the health of the airline then I suggest that you perhaps find a more productive pursuit as you and several others posting the same sort of nonsense over the past months, with presumably the one intention of destroying the general perception of the airline, are in danger of turning this important forum into a dangerous Trumpesk comedy thread.

Demand - Boston and daily NY and LA back this month as well as flights to the sub-continent with most passenger flights now full both ways and several with waiting lists.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1553x807/cx1_c327beb26a58ad83ebc87cc2e16acc19f871651b.jpg

There's your answer, you said it --> "I have not checked..." and a "Cathay source" bla bla bla
Trying to defend someone who jumps up and down and says that CX lease 2 aircraft etc and own the rest, please.

READ

[Rico_Corp]

Ok Oli lets read page 73: as of FY 2021 the GROUP has 58 aircraft on Operating Lease (CPA 31, HKE 27).

The 31 Cathay Pacific leased aircraft comprise 2 x A350, 15 x B777, 4 x A330, 10 A320F. 31 leased aircraft out of a fleet total of 193.

[veryoldchinahand]

Its now mid 2022 fellows....not a lot of point in quoting an outdated 2021 document to make your case.

The only reason that I became involved in this thread was the very silly post (below) from Oli777 which was a continuation of the calculated factious malevolent nonsense posted here by the usual 4 or 5 suspects aimed solely at misleading others re Cathay .

"Swire 101, lease aircraft because interest rates are low, oops... now interest rates are through the roof and repayments cost a fortune. Oh well, in 24 days time the music stops and the board members won't have seats to sit on."

[Sam Ting Wong]

I don't understand the line of your argument,V.

You say people don't want to see the bad news, the ugly side, the negative, the lack of pilots if demand comes back.

Actually, your prediction is the overly optimistic one. I want a pilot shortage. Lack of manpower is the only chance for contract improvements. Plus it would mean more productivity hours.

The negative view is the opposite, no shortage.

[VforVENDETTA]

I don't understand the line of your argument,V.

You say people don't want to see the bad news, the ugly side, the negative, the lack of pilots if demand comes back.

Actually, your prediction is the overly optimistic one. I want a pilot shortage. Lack of manpower is the only chance for contract improvements. Plus it would mean a lot of productivity hours for the existing work force.

The negative view is the opposite, no shortage.

Quiet a bit of delusional material you put forward.

First of all, what contract?! Cathay pilots are not working under a "contract" since Jan. 2021. Cos 18 states in the FIRST paragraph, that the company can change anything they want, anytime they want at their sole discretion. Well that is by definition not a contract. A contract is a 2 way street, binding and not changeable by one party in it's entirety at their sole discretion. And by having proven via legal precedence in hk that an employment "contract" which is what we had, isn't worth the toilet paper it's written on, especially when signed by cathay pacific, and can be canceled overnight replaced by a "company policy" document which you're told to sign in 2 weeks or you're fired, they can no longer even pretend to offer an employment contract which anyone with any reason and logic will believe. So get a dictionary and educate yourself on what the word "contract" means. You're no longer working under one, and never will again in Hong Kong, and certainly never again at cathay pacific. Only an idiot will not laugh out loud when cathay pacific utters the word "contract" now.

If you're simply referring to the increasing of your pay regarding productivity pay, it will only ever be temporarily until the next hiccup when cathay will take it back down to wherever they wish to, at their sole discretion. Leaving you to look and feel like a fool for not having taken a job elsewhere when you could even at lower pay but stable and under an enforceable "contract".

And when hoping productivity will take your pay back to previous rate, remember your housing and children's education allowance, medical coverage have also been cut over 50% (for which you now have to pay out of pocket or downgrade accordingly). All that will have to be raised too or company business flourishing once again will not trickle down to you in a meaningful way.
so no, productivity pay will not bring back what you had before, while cathay will have the profits it had before while paying you 1/3 housing and children's education allowance, which you'll either pay out of pocket or downgrade your life and your family's life accordingly.

But like I said, if you don't have any other choice and if cathay goes down it will mean a career disaster for you because you can't get a job flying anywhere else, you'll continue to wear your rose colored glasses. Because if you take them off your situation is so utterly depressing and hopeless with an employer that has zero employer credibility left for it's employees making it completely impossible to plan any future, financially or professionally for it's pilots.

These are the subjects relevant to existance of a pilot shortage in hk, or not. It makes zero jack sh!t difference if cathay is leasing or owning how many of its aircraft. Zero.

Cathay's loss of credibility is not something any management group can ever fix in the future. It's been proven an employment contract signed in hk and especially by cathay pacific isn't worth the toilet paper it's signed on and that it never was all these decades. Who in yhe right mind will risk their career and financial stability to work for cathay again, unless they're either very desperate or very naive? (I didn't want to say stupid)
Even the most well intentioned management group which might exist in some dreamy future will be laughed at when asking for trust and credibility from its employees at Cathay. What was done by this management group can never be undone. It's over. Even of cathay prospers in the future, you as a cathay employees never will. Cathay's success or not is no longer relevant to you. You won't be allowed to share that success, only the pain every time they f'kkk it up. What else do they have to do to make that clear to you?

It has been time to leave as soon as you can for some time now. This show is over. The extremely high attrition numbers and the utter fIlure to recruit pilots despite having launched a recruitment campaign many months ago is a clear sign. Leave when you can.

[Zi Peng]

14 years FO, my seniority goes up 3-5 spots a week, I am assuming they are mostly CNs leaving.
Where is my command course?
Again are we really short or critically short ?

[WB Driver]

Even for guys currently out of a job, there are better options to apply to at the moment than CX:ugh:

[chards]

Quiet a bit of delusional material you put forward.

First of all, what contract?! Cathay pilots are not working under a "contract" since Jan. 2021. Cos 18 states in the FIRST paragraph, that the company can change anything they want, anytime they want at their sole discretion. Well that is by definition not a contract. A contract is a 2 way street, binding and not changeable by one party in it's entirety at their sole discretion. And by having proven via legal precedence in hk that an employment "contract" which is what we had, isn't worth the toilet paper it's written on, especially when signed by cathay pacific, and can be canceled overnight replaced by a "company policy" document which you're told to sign in 2 weeks or you're fired, they can no longer even pretend to offer an employment contract which anyone with any reason and logic will believe. So get a dictionary and educate yourself on what the word "contract" means. You're no longer working under one, and never will again in Hong Kong, and certainly never again at cathay pacific. Only an idiot will not laugh out loud when cathay pacific utters the word "contract" now.

If you're simply referring to the increasing of your pay regarding productivity pay, it will only ever be temporarily until the next hiccup when cathay will take it back down to wherever they wish to, at their sole discretion. Leaving you to look and feel like a fool for not having taken a job elsewhere when you could even at lower pay but stable and under an enforceable "contract".

And when hoping productivity will take your pay back to previous rate, remember your housing and children's education allowance, medical coverage have also been cut over 50% (for which you now have to pay out of pocket or downgrade accordingly). All that will have to be raised too or company business flourishing once again will not trickle down to you in a meaningful way.
so no, productivity pay will not bring back what you had before, while cathay will have the profits it had before while paying you 1/3 housing and children's education allowance, which you'll either pay out of pocket or downgrade your life and your family's life accordingly.

But like I said, if you don't have any other choice and if cathay goes down it will mean a career disaster for you because you can't get a job flying anywhere else, you'll continue to wear your rose colored glasses. Because if you take them off your situation is so utterly depressing and hopeless with an employer that has zero employer credibility left for it's employees making it completely impossible to plan any future, financially or professionally for it's pilots.

These are the subjects relevant to existance of a pilot shortage in hk, or not. It makes zero jack sh!t difference if cathay is leasing or owning how many of its aircraft. Zero.

Cathay's loss of credibility is not something any management group can ever fix in the future. It's been proven an employment contract signed in hk and especially by cathay pacific isn't worth the toilet paper it's signed on and that it never was all these decades. Who in yhe right mind will risk their career and financial stability to work for cathay again, unless they're either very desperate or very naive? (I didn't want to say stupid)
Even the most well intentioned management group which might exist in some dreamy future will be laughed at when asking for trust and credibility from its employees at Cathay. What was done by this management group can never be undone. It's over. Even of cathay prospers in the future, you as a cathay employees never will. Cathay's success or not is no longer relevant to you. You won't be allowed to share that success, only the pain every time they f'kkk it up. What else do they have to do to make that clear to you?

It has been time to leave as soon as you can for some time now. This show is over. The extremely high attrition numbers and the utter fIlure to recruit pilots despite having launched a recruitment campaign many months ago is a clear sign. Leave when you can.


100% correct V, you summed it up perfectly. Now STW will come on here quoting how great this weeks pay rates compare to some LCC in Asia and that CX will be flush with high quality applicants.

[veryoldchinahand]

Finally, interesting and largely constructive comments here.
It is not all important to me that some do not agree with my stance that was to stop the rot and the nonsense that was being posted here.
My view is that if Cathay need to pay more and or improve conditions they will do so. They are a commercial organisation that ultimately answers to the shareholders.
Already they offer above market norm terms and conditions and had not timely decisive actions been taken the airline would have closed. Understandably these necessary actions caused great hurt and anger but were necessary for survival and over 6000 largely Hong Kong employees still having jobs.

[Rice power]

The “Wumao” are active of late !
The above market norm term used here was from the benchmarking done some 6 years back when CX renumeration was compared to a basket number of regional (note not legacy carrier) airlines. Strongly rumored that Australian regional airline Air North being one of them.(what a joke if verified true)
The timely action spoken of saved nothing and paled into insignificance as to the costs of having aircraft non/under utilized and idle/parked at Alice Springs so please stop with the smokescreens.
The 8th Floor saw an opportunity to slash and burn and it has brought a world class airline to it’s knees, to the extent that the prized Diamond Club members now shun CX for competitor airlines.

Occum’s Razor.

[veryoldchinahand]

Rice power: Opinions differ but facts are facts and a fact is that the airline industry in general can no longer afford to provide the benefits or pay pilots at the at previous levels. Apart from the need to be competitive the Cathay packages worth well upwards of HK$4 million were clearly out of step with the then current industry levels and needed to change. It can perhaps be reasonably argued that the cuts went unnecessarily far and some believe that they were treated harshly but change was unavoidable and escalated by the pandemic and Hong Kong's handling of it.
Given all of the circumstances Cathay overall treated its staff far better than did most of its major competitors but unavoidably there were causalities and some will never get over what they perceive as Cathay ruining their lifestyle and prospects while the vast majority have accepted the unavoidable and got on with life. Cathay is a business not a charity and needs to be completive to survive and If salary and benefits need to be raised to hold and attract a stable pilot workforce that is what will happen. .

[Brown Nose]

Another management ******. If Airlines can’t pay the same packages as before, punters can’t afford to fly, and the number of airlines and aircraft must decrease.

Rice power: Opinions differ but facts are facts and a fact is that the airline industry in general can no longer afford to provide the benefits or pay pilots at the at previous levels. Apart from the need to be competitive the Cathay packages worth well upwards of HK$4 million were clearly out of step with the then current industry levels and needed to change. It can perhaps be reasonably argued that the cuts went unnecessarily far and some believe that they were treated harshly but change was unavoidable and escalated by the pandemic and Hong Kong's handling of it.
Given all of the circumstances Cathay overall treated its staff far better than did most of its major competitors but unavoidably there were causalities and some will never get over what they perceive as Cathay ruining their lifestyle and prospects while the vast majority have accepted the unavoidable and got on with life. Cathay is a business not a charity and needs to be completive to survive and If salary and benefits need to be raised to hold and attract a stable pilot workforce that is what will happen. .

[veryoldchinahand]

Brown Nose :I'm afraid that your logic is rather beyond my understanding.
However I agree that the number of VIABLE airlines has decreased and in the short term is likely to decrease further.
This is very unlikely however to include any from the Cathay group but it is looking as though the small remaining rump Hong Kong Airlines is very probably terminal this time.

[Rice power]

You wish to talk facts?
Okay, how about no-one on B scale was earning “well upwards of 4 mill”, even the rare few with BTC allowances
Renumeration for United/Delta/American and BA senior Captains are freely available on the internet for you to ponder over.
Really appreciate the BS lecture though.

[raven11]

Very old China hand. I served Cathay for over 30 years. For three decades, I had a front row seat to a never ending stream of cost efficiencies which manifested themselves in two ways: cuts to pay and benefits and cuts to operational expenses.

Pilot pay and benefits were constantly on the chopping block and cut with the regularity of an atomic clock. As lower pay packages attracted fewer and fewer real pilots recruitment standards were reduced. All the while, senior management would proclaim that no change to the legendary “Cathay Standard” was occurring. In fact, even long after experienced pilots were no longer being hired and untrained pilots with zero flight time were instead being hired off the street, senior Cathay managers continued to pretend that they were still able to attract top pilot talent. It was bizarre.

The ultimate effect was obvious to those on the flight deck. There were cuts to minimum training requirements, cuts to crew experience levels, cuts to minimum crewing levels; and once stringent flight time limitations were being manipulated. To top it all off was the rostering system that used flight time limits as performance targets, rather than “only when necessary” as intended by the law governing the limitations. It became alarming to witness the constantly diminishing standard on the flight deck. Multiple letters from the Cathay trainers, who went on the record to warn management about real safety concerns, were ignored; or the safety risks assessed as manageable. I know, because I had a hand in writing them.

In your last post you said, “Given all of the circumstances Cathay overall treated its staff far better than did most of its major competitors but unavoidably there were causalities and some will never get over what they perceive as Cathay ruining their lifestyle and prospects while the vast majority have accepted the unavoidable and got on with life.”

You write with sincerity and I have no doubt that you are firm in your convictions as a business man, and let me say that I heard the same sentiment each time cuts were imposed. It was the same rationale used to fire 49 pilots in 2001. A seminal act of cruelty that would not have been tolerated in any other civilized business environment. All the casualties that you speak of were real people. People with families, obligations, and years and years of sweat equity spent honing their pilot skills. People with everything invested in Cathay and in Hong Kong. By any modern business or human standard you don’t just get to rationalize writing people off as an unnecessary business expense in a manner as if their lives didn’t matter. Certainly not since Dickens.

And this is what I’m trying to get across to you. Yes hard business decisions are sometimes necessary. But from my perspective, Cathay was never able to carry them out with any real finesse, or with a human touch. Instead changes were always heavy handed and arbitrarily imposed with an axe. With seemingly little thought or concern to the pain and misery it caused to the very people that once made Cathay the great airline it was. You may disagree, but this is what it felt like to those of us on the receiving end.

I choose to resign 18 months ago, after 30 years and nearing my retirement age of 65. Once again, with the finesse of a slap across the face, I was given three choices: Endure another in a long series of pay cuts by signing a new “contract”; be fired; or resign. I asked if I could continue for a few months until normal retirement on my current conditions but was flatly refused. So I choose Option 3 and resigned. I gave three months notice, packed up my family and left. A clerk oversaw my release and walked me to the door. Just another example of the lack of human touch, the lack of people skills, I referred to earlier.

In any case, do with my words as you please. It is with great sadness that the once legendary Cathay Pacific Airways has fallen into its current state.. I wish you luck in its rebuilding. Hopefully it will be successful with better people management skills.

[Starbear]

Finally, interesting and largely constructive comments here.
It is not all important to me that some do not agree with my stance that was to stop the rot and the nonsense that was being posted here.
My view is that if Cathay need to pay more and or improve conditions they will do so. They are a commercial organisation that ultimately answers to the shareholders.
Already they offer above market norm terms and conditions and had not timely decisive actions been taken the airline would have closed. Understandably these necessary actions caused great hurt and anger but were necessary for survival and over 6000 largely Hong Kong employees still having jobs.


Timely action? Respectable businesses and management take timely action on a temporary basis and do not cut to the bone forever in such a depraved and cynical manner.

[mngmt mole]

Raven11. Thank you for a post that clearly explains the near depravity of the Swire management ethos. As a reminder to those who were not at CX at the time, the 49er incident resulted in the DEATHS of three people (two pilots, and the suicide of the wife of one of them). To all of those "star chamber" members at the time, don't think that your actions will not count against you in the next life. What you did to those people and their families should live in infamy. Shame on every one of you who participated. Truly one of the most detestable acts i've ever witnessed.

CX have now hit almost 30 years since their first 'Commitment Day" (when the first evidence of the company's attack against their pilots appeared). To all of the Swire and CX managers involved over that period of time: good job. ruined airline. ruined lives.

You couldn't make this up if you were a fiction writer.

[main_dog]

Raven11. Spot on. Well-balanced and about as close to “the truth” as any individual can get to, at least the truth as I perceive it.

[BusyB]

VOCH,

What a load of BS. If you really are a VOCH you certainly didn't work for CX for the last 30 years.:mad:

[veryoldchinahand]

You militant guys certainly have thin skins and seemingly need to resort to abusive personal attacks on those who express reasoned but different views !
For the record I have several friends who for many years enjoyed packages recently (last say 5/7 years) of upwards of HK$4 million including benefits
It would perhaps be interesting to many to know what other top airlines with decent modern fleets are offering better stable and readily available packages at your current level working in what is generally deemed to be a civilised and safe environment.

[Babyjet_dododo]

Between the HK Government restrictions at outports (yes, we’re still prisoners and the HK government loves having this power) and Swire / Cathay’s approach, hellbent on destroying the pilot body both professionally and personally, unless you want to spend the rest of your life in misery and have a company and an over zealous government control every aspect of your life then by all means apply!

[BuzzBox]

You militant guys certainly have thin skins and seemingly need to resort to abusive personal attacks on those who express reasoned but different views !
For the record I have several friends who for many years enjoyed packages recently (last say 5/7 years) of upwards of HK$4 million including benefits
It would perhaps be interesting to many to know what other top airlines with decent modern fleets are offering better stable and readily available packages at your current level working in what is generally deemed to be a civilised and safe environment.

It's all very well claiming that Cathay's salary packages were out of step with industry norms, but that's like comparing apples with oranges. Cathay Pacific only ever provided expat benefits because it could not source sufficient pilots in Hong Kong. It had to attract expat pilots and therefore needed to provide housing and education allowances to offset the cost of living in one of the most expensive cities in the world. Without those benefits, a Cathay pilot's after tax salary is no better than many other major airlines, yet the Cathay pilot living in Hong Kong has a much higher cost of living than pilots living elsewhere. If you were an expat pilot considering a job in Hong Kong, or an expat pilot living in Hong Kong and about to face a massive reduction in benefits, what would you do in a world where there are other opportunities?

[MENELAUS]

in what is generally deemed to be a civilised and safe environment.

Think you may have to review that in the light of the place being reduced to the status of a 4 th tier Chinese police state.

[veryoldchinahand]

I don't believe so Menelaus. Your justification for this rather empty remark is what may I ask ?

BuzzBox I don't for a moment disagree that Cathay only offered very enticing expat packages in order to attract needed pilots. It is what what expanding businesses do and to a degree this happing again now.
It rather astounds me that many of you here cannot seem to grasp that Cathay is a business not a government department and as such has a first obligation to share holders to do what is needed to survive in the very difficult prevailing circumstances.
No amount of whining and foot stamping here is going to change that and as any impartial observer would be bound to conclude Cathay is done a much better job of looking after is employees, preserving jobs and keeping the airline going than most .
Of course its not easy or 'fair' but then it never was.

[mngmt mole]

What office on the third floor do you inhabit veryoldchinahand...?

[Papa123]

I don't believe so Menelaus. Your justification for this rather empty remark is what may I ask ?

BuzzBox I don't for a moment disagree that Cathay only offered very enticing expat packages in order to attract needed pilots. It is what what expanding businesses do and to a degree this happing again now.
It rather astounds me that many of you here cannot seem to grasp that Cathay is a business not a government department and as such has a first obligation to share holders to do what is needed to survive in the very difficult prevailing circumstances.
No amount of whining and foot stamping here is going to change that and as any impartial observer would be bound to conclude Cathay is done a much better job of looking after is employees, preserving jobs and keeping the airline going than most .
Of course its not easy or 'fair' but then it never was.

VOCH, the point you’re missing is that you, me, and every other pilot employed are HUMANS, some with little HUMANS, and older HUMANS (probably older than you) that have human needs and require adequate levels of compensation. Hire robots, pay them once and work them forever if Cathay is “just a business”. And “looking after their employees”? Riding them like mules? Some camps in the ‘40’s did the same to their ‘employees’

[veryoldchinahand]

MM. Shouting irrelevant nonsense from the distant sidelines as usual.....too hot for the lawn bowling I suppose !

[Papa123]

MM. Shouting irrelevant nonsense from the distant sidelines as usual.....too hot for the lawn bowling I suppose !

it’s all relevant. And who’s MM?

[veryoldchinahand]

Papa123 I understand your argument well. Few are older than me and I suggest few have worked harder to make a decent living in Hong Kong.
Judging from your joining date I suspect that you are a young fellow yet to learn that the the world does not owe you a living and making a living in these difficult times actually hard work for less reward than most of us have come to expect. As I presume that you are no way indentured to the airline but do actually work for Cathay I suggest that you get on with things or look for better pastures although these you will agree, I am sure are very difficult to find at the present time.

[veryoldchinahand]

Papa123 Not wishing to mislead I should make the point above that I am no longer formally working for anyone having reached the vast age where I am no longer considered by some to be competent. But I am still working and they are of course all wrong !

[Stone Temple Pilot]

[QUOTE=veryoldchinahand;11273733.....to conclude Cathay is done a much better job of looking after is employees, preserving jobs and keeping the airline going than most .
[/QUOTE]

You mean like Cathay Dragon?
They certainly did a good job looking after "is" employees, preserving jobs and keeping the airline going - indeed better than most!
No other airline could have done it in that way, that's for sure.

[Papa123]

Papa123 I understand your argument well. Few are older than me and I suggest few have worked harder to make a decent living in Hong Kong.
Judging from your joining date I suspect that you are a young fellow yet to learn that the the world does not owe you a living and making a living in these difficult times actually hard work for less reward than most of us have come to expect. As I presume that you are no way indentured to the airline but do actually work for Cathay I suggest that you get on with things or look for better pastures although these you will agree, I am sure are very difficult to find at the present time.

Typical China, don’t know who I am how I got here, or what station I’m presently in - but unabashedly offer up ‘life lessons’ from your own perceived sense of superiority. Back to the post - you suggested we ‘get nothing and like it because - just business’. I say no, there is value to our effort - which is currently not being recognized. I didn’t say they OWE me anything, nor I to them.

[BuzzBox]

I don't for a moment disagree that Cathay only offered very enticing expat packages in order to attract needed pilots. It is what what expanding businesses do and to a degree this happing again now.

Are you claiming that, “to a degree”, Cathay is currently offering “very enticing expat packages” to attract pilots? If the current package is so attractive, why are so many pilots leaving for other pastures?

[MENELAUS]

[QUOTE=veryoldchinahand;11273733]I don't believe so Menelaus. Your justification for this rather empty remark is what may I ask ?UNQUOTE]

Well let’s see shall we ?

A transformation ( in very short order) from a society where free speech was the norm, and our press and civil liberties were the envy of many in Asia, to one where a new security and sedition law means that one can be seized in the night, and shipped over the border for a touch of rough justice, by our Communist overlords. Just for espousing the “wrong” view.
That some of this was accelerated by the riots (and I’m still not fully convinced that much of it was not fomented by our friends over the border to force the issue) is undeniable. That said, the very fact that organized, peaceful demonstrations and marches ( once a hallmark of HK ) have been banned forthwith and forever is yet another sign of heavy handedness, and the destruction of all civil liberties.

Disbandment and effective neutering of all trade Union movements and associations ( again I’d be the first to admit that they were hardly the NUM) but some, such as the MTR Union, offered decent protections.

A farce of an election ( with one sole candidate, remind you of anywhere nearby ? ) for CE. Said candidate a rabid supporter of Beijing and their methods. So an ideal shoe in for for a 4th tier city.

Rapid haemorrhaging of talent.

A society where it is considered the norm to lock up its citizens, including babies and children, in quasi concentration camps in an half arsed attempt to achieve a zero covid policy whilst the rest of the World moves on.

A government that considers it acceptable to allow its Health Dept to mandate effective solitary confinement for its pilot work force, having spent 15 hours in an aluminium/ composite tube, then require them to wear tracking bracelets as though they’re rapists or paedophiles on early release.
And to add insult to injury subject them
to a draconian testing regime for days after. And rinse and repeat. That quite so many individuals have put up with this for quite so long beggars belief and says a fair bit about Stockholm syndrome.

If all the above ( and there are of course more ) are not the very epitomy of life under a CCCP dictatorship, I don’t know what is.

[Asianexpress]

You mean like Cathay Dragon?
They certainly did a good job looking after "is" employees, preserving jobs and keeping the airline going - indeed better than most!
No other airline could have done it in that way, that's for sure.

They did look after 8 of the KA employee's. I believe only 6 remain, mostly on the 3rd floor.

The rest of us were thrown out with the trash.

[Wombaticus]

I don't believe so Menelaus. Your justification for this rather empty remark is what may I ask ?

BuzzBox I don't for a moment disagree that Cathay only offered very enticing expat packages in order to attract needed pilots. It is what what expanding businesses do and to a degree this happing again now.
It rather astounds me that many of you here cannot seem to grasp that Cathay is a business not a government department and as such has a first obligation to share holders to do what is needed to survive in the very difficult prevailing circumstances.
No amount of whining and foot stamping here is going to change that and as any impartial observer would be bound to conclude Cathay is done a much better job of looking after is employees, preserving jobs and keeping the airline going than most .
Of course its not easy or 'fair' but then it never was.
If survival is the basis for your argument VOCH maybe you could have a word with our CEO, Tang concurs, and puts it plainly: “The sur*vivability of Cathay Pacific has never been on my mind.” and while you are, explain to him that a temporary reduction in earnings would probably have been accepted by most.

What you have witnessed VOCH, is a smash and grab, it is a strategy put in place by some senior leaders and it appears to be failing. Will management now need to cover their short?

[VforVENDETTA]

The value of every company is based largely on its assets. Assets which make profit, for the owners who own stock in that company. Less of those assets or worse shape of those assets result in less profit. The value of the company is what drives the stock price. The shareholders take direct benefit from that above all others, including the employees, which can be labeled as "cost units" or "profit units" depending on the competence of management.

Unhappy, un-taken care of, demoralized, angry, stressed, bankrupt pilots in this case are much less efficient and much less reliable or caring as before. Even that delapitated , demoralized, inefficient work force is declining at an uncomfortable rate without any success of replacing them despite having announced and started a big recruitment drive almost a year ago.

Without this asset which has to be there to operate the other very expensive assets (fleet of aircraft) that asset set also languishes in utter inefficiency. All other assets will be in the same boat, they are as we speak.

Tell me how happy the "shareholders" of this pennystock taco stand are when one of the assets which is impossible to operate the airline without (it's most expensive to attract, train & replace people) are in such terrible shape and such out of control dwindling numbers?

Sure ots all about the owners, called sharehilders. But the stock price is all about the company's value. Value is all about the assets which are necessary to produce profit. In case of an airline, to fly airplanes, enough to be able to maintain market share and perhaps expand market share where profit making opportunities are recognized.

As with any business... fukk your people and you've fukked your profit (shareholders).

Cathay's plan was to be back at 60% operation by September, then 50% by December. Both shut down by manpower planning due to not enough pilots. Can't retrain fast enough to replace pilots on flying fleets fron the non-flying fleet either. As soon as they become current, they leave for another job.

How are you doing shareholders? Enjoying the ride downhill? Enjoy it while it lasts...

[missingblade]

Average 777 pilot isn't flying at all.
Average Airbus pilot is doing 45 hours.

Only the 747 guys are flying reasonable hours.
No 747's parked.

Hkg isn't really opening any time soo. Thus cx is a cargo airline for the foreseeable future.

So - There's no shortage of pilots.

There's 2500 guys on the seniority list.

Costs to hire and train new pilots as we slowly open up over the next two or more years will be a billion dollars plus - however they've saved double that on cos18 and everyone that quit over the past two years...

I fail to see the problem...

[Papa123]

Average 777 pilot isn't flying at all.
Average Airbus pilot is doing 45 hours.

Only the 747 guys are flying reasonable hours.
No 747's parked.

Hkg isn't really opening any time soo. Thus cx is a cargo airline for the foreseeable future.

So - There's no shortage of pilots.

There's 2500 guys on the seniority list.

Costs to hire and train new pilots as we slowly open up over the next two or more years will be a billion dollars plus - however they've saved double that on cos18 and everyone that quit over the past two years...

I fail to see the problem...

missing. You’ll do another 2 or more years under this circus? For what? The PAY? The TRAVEL OPPORTUNITIES. Why so quick to side and equivocate with management direction. You like it better now, those ‘smart’ moves to push Cos18?
sycophant you.

[Papa123]

Average 777 pilot isn't flying at all.
Average Airbus pilot is doing 45 hours.

Only the 747 guys are flying reasonable hours.
No 747's parked.

Hkg isn't really opening any time soo. Thus cx is a cargo airline for the foreseeable future.

So - There's no shortage of pilots.

There's 2500 guys on the seniority list.

Costs to hire and train new pilots as we slowly open up over the next two or more years will be a billion dollars plus - however they've saved double that on cos18 and everyone that quit over the past two years...

I fail to see the problem...

missing. You’ll do another 2 or more years under this circus? For what? The PAY? The TRAVEL OPPORTUNITIES. Why so quick to side and equivocate with management direction. You like it better now, those ‘smart’ moves to push Cos18?
sycophant you.

[missingblade]

missing. You’ll do another 2 or more years under this circus? For what? The PAY? The TRAVEL OPPORTUNITIES. Why so quick to side and equivocate with management direction. You like it better now, those ‘smart’ moves to push Cos18?
sycophant you.


I don't know why I even bother to post here. You lot are all about personal insults while most of you seem unable to sense sarcasm or irony...🤦🏻‍♂️

Anyway - I just pointed out the realities cx and hkg face now. Nothing less nothing more. Do with it what you wish.
I don't like it any more than you do.
And I still fail to see the problem.

[Sam Ting Wong]

pilot shortage is the wet dream of the profession.

missingblade is of course right, as is cx management in their own right.

nobody cares if we are happy, all that matters is how many of us sit in the driver seat and to what cost.

[Rie]

Just having a look into the SA aviation pages on Facebook gives a good understanding on the likely candidate for the upcoming DEFO slots. 99% is bad news pleading with people not to go. The others are the ones desperate that cannot make it into the ME3.

[Ecam321]

pilot shortage is the wet dream of the profession.

missingblade is of course right, as is cx management in their own right.

nobody cares if we are happy, all that matters is how many of us sit in the driver seat and to what cost.
And this is 100% correct, weather you like or not.

[Busbuoy]

And this is 100% correct, weather you like or not.
If I have to weather another instance of someone using "weather" when they mean "whether"......
Check your writing, you're supposed to be professionals.

[Fac6]

Hkg isn't really opening any time soo. Thus cx is a cargo airline for the foreseeable future.

You obviously have not seen the news with the shortening of quarantine times then? Most of CX passenger loads are at 98%

This will surely upset the doom and gloomers. They just can't/wont accept that HK is indeed opening up and it will get better.

[1200firm]

You obviously have not seen the news with the shortening of quarantine times then? Most of CX passenger loads are at 98%

This will surely upset the doom and gloomers. They just can't/wont accept that HK is indeed opening up and it will get better.
Actually, quarantine is now longer. If you read the fine print the arrival day is now day zero, not day one. So in essence it is now 4 + 4 so 8 days. Nice little CX style bait n switch.

[Rie]

Actually, quarantine is now longer. If you read the fine print the arrival day is now day zero, not day one. So in essence it is now 4 + 4 so 8 days. Nice little CX style bait n switch.
in some ways it really is 3 full days as you get out around 9am on the 3rd day. It’s crap but it’s better than before. Getting stuck for 21 days was no joke.

The government has a long way to go still but hopefully this helps spread all the new variants into the community faster.

[Cury Lamb]

You obviously have not seen the news with the shortening of quarantine times then? Most of CX passenger loads are at 98%

This will surely upset the doom and gloomers. They just can't/wont accept that HK is indeed opening up and it will get better.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/583x466/a89b25a9_7dbf_4d08_819f_264a7a49a07f_2538e3867ba28fab19bf787 df1de0759f3419bee.jpeg

And don’t call me Shirley

[ToCatLady]

"We are asking the government to urgently provide a clear roadmap showing the complete removal of all COVID-related restrictions for aircrew and passengers as soon as is feasible to protect Hong Kong’s international aviation hub status," the statement wrote.

Strange quote from CX when "evidence" shows its GMO & his pals who have been lobbying the gov to keep Aircrew locked up and under control.

[KABOY]

With the opening up of HK, answer this.

‘I want to come to HK and secure a deal with a one day meeting…. How long do I need to stay? Do I get free accommodation if I test positive?’

Asia’s world circus.

[Cury Lamb]

Strange quote from CX when "evidence" shows its GMO & his pals who have been lobbying the gov to keep Aircrew locked up and under control.

Not really that strange, in fact quite in character.

These management types are all sycophantic (is that a word?) two faced snakes!

[Flex88]

You obviously have not seen the news with the shortening of quarantine times then? Most of CX passenger loads are at 98%

This will surely upset the doom and gloomers. They just can't/wont accept that HK is indeed opening up and it will get better.

The stupid level of this post says it all and concisely reflects almost all the bare knuckle hangers on at CX.. A load factor of 98% on "flights flown" means absolutely nothing when PASSENGER TRAFFIC IS STILL 95% LESS than in 2019..
Cmon Man... it's embarrassing :sad:

[Papa123]

3+4 only benefits residents. 7+0 is same for rest of world. So silly

[Cury Lamb]

The stupid level of this post says it all and concisely reflects almost all the bare knuckle hangers on at CX.. A load factor of 98% on "flights flown" means absolutely nothing when PASSENGER TRAFFIC IS STILL 95% LESS than in 2019..
Cmon Man... it's embarrassing :sad:

Oi Flex, next thing the likes of FF6, veryoldchinahandjob and sometingseriouslywong will be rejoicing on here how the company is now making huge ‘profits’ as the 5 billion loss is down from a 7.68 billion loss.

And how we can all look forward to a 10% pay rise plus 8 weeks profit share across the board :ugh:

[veryoldchinahand]

CL Rejoicing not yet ...but we have the Krug on ice !

[Cury Lamb]

Well get some more ice, in fact get an iceberg, because its gonna take a very very long time to pay back 39 billion loan + accrued interest!

[Rice power]

If the travelling public knew how mentally challenged the CX fan club are they would catch the bloody train.

[RAT Management]

Well get some more ice, in fact get an iceberg, because its gonna take a very very long time to pay back 39 billion loan + accrued interest!
They haven't taken the loan. They keep getting extensions. They have enough liquidity to go on like this for more than 5 years.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Jesus, you guys must be bored. So now I should worry about the repayment schedules of a government loan..

[Bokpiel]

The stupid level of this post says it all and concisely reflects almost all the bare knuckle hangers on at CX.. A load factor of 98% on "flights flown" means absolutely nothing when PASSENGER TRAFFIC IS STILL 95% LESS than in 2019..
Cmon Man... it's embarrassing :sad:

Agreed. What an absolute muppet post. I had to read it more than once because I thought maybe I'm misunderstanding it. Maybe he is a politician because it's the same level of common sense the gov uses with their zero covid BS.

[ToCatLady]

Bragging how this can go on for another 5 years.

Stockholm syndrome at it’s finest.

surely due another dose of “vaccine or be fired” emails.

[BBN RADAR]

Agreed. What an absolute muppet post. I had to read it more than once because I thought maybe I'm misunderstanding it. Maybe he is a politician because it's the same level of common sense the gov uses with their zero covid BS.

I read a moronic headline in the SCCP today; Something along the lines of "Hong Kong arrivals to rise 80%" due to the slight relaxation of quarantine restrictions.
Yeah?
Well, +80% of F.A. is still F.A.

[Oasis]

Cue the reporter questions: 'Won't this increase the risk of imported cases?'

[oriental flyer]

Yet in the USA companies are realising and recognising that if they don’t pay decent wages they won’t get pilots

A new US (https://simpleflying.com/tag/usa/) regional airline (https://simpleflying.com/tag/regional/) startup, Connect Airlines (https://simpleflying.com/tag/connect-airlines/), is offering a massive salary for direct-entry captains (https://simpleflying.com/tag/captain/). The airline will offer a $250,000 starting salary to 30 qualified direct-entry Dash-8 (https://simpleflying.com/tag/dash-8/) captains. It only requires 2,500 hours of total flight time and provides a benefits package and a home every night schedule. The news of this eye-catching salary comes amid a pilot shortage when airlines are struggling to find qualified pilots.

[jjmclure]

Has anyone heard of Cathay Pacific now requiring new joiners to sign for a training loan ( aka training bond)
Worth $280000 hkd over 36 months?

[veryoldchinahand]

OF
Then perhaps the US is the place for you sir.
Of course Cathay will one way or another get all of the pilots that it needs and probably you are already aware of this.
If this should involve paying more then this is what will happen.

[boocs]

JJM,

Yes heard this today.

b.

[veryoldchinahand]

JJM The information that you have posted is substantially incorrect.

[Dragon Pacific]

JJM The information that you have posted is substantially incorrect.

It is not completely incorrect voch. I’ve seen it in black and white that the company will provide a loan to cover training costs that must be repaid if a DEFO leaves within three years. That’ll help recruitment.

[boocs]

VOCH,

suggest you respectfully check your sources. JJM is correct.

b.

[ToCatLady]

It’s just a ploy to stop new joiners obtaining a licence and leaving straight away. There’s nothing CX can do legally in HKG to obtain this amount apart from hold back wages/PFUND perhaps.

Same situation with their old “forgivable loan” they used to pay and try and claim back if a pilot left before 5 or 6 years.

most airlines now have a bond, EK is about 45,000USD over a few years too

[Acepilothk99]

It is not completely incorrect voch. I’ve seen it in black and white that the company will provide a loan to cover training costs that must be repaid if a DEFO leaves within three years. That’ll help recruitment.
Yup I am a cadet pilot and this is definitely what management has been saying to us. We have an unforgivable loan bound to us for 5 years which is payable according to an equation management came up with if you leave the company or get terminated "based on company discretion." The loan will take approximately 14,000 HKD (our monthly allowance) per month for the first 3 years which actually adds up to 504,000 HKD total. Half a f*cking million HKD. Even more deductions than the figures provided above. Absolutely ridiculous.

[ToCatLady]

Yup I am a cadet pilot and this is definitely what management has been saying to us. We have an unforgivable loan bound to us for 5 years which is payable according to an equation management came up with if you leave the company or get terminated "based on company discretion." The loan will take approximately 14,000 HKD (our monthly allowance) per month for the first 3 years which actually adds up to 504,000 HKD total. Half a f*cking million HKD. Even more deductions than the figures provided above. Absolutely ridiculous.


yeah but you didn’t pay a single dollar towards your own training? I’d consider that a pretty good deal unless of course you want to obtain a licence elsewhere at your own cost?

[Acepilothk99]

Relative to the old contract where we did not have to repay the training bond the conditions have changed for the worse, much like everyones contract at cx

[veryoldchinahand]

Gents, I agree that my comment re the original post was perhaps a bit strong although the original post did suggest that a bond was something new which of course it is not.

[Bokpiel]

Yup I am a cadet pilot and this is definitely what management has been saying to us. We have an unforgivable loan bound to us for 5 years which is payable according to an equation management came up with if you leave the company or get terminated "based on company discretion." The loan will take approximately 14,000 HKD (our monthly allowance) per month for the first 3 years which actually adds up to 504,000 HKD total. Half a f*cking million HKD. Even more deductions than the figures provided above. Absolutely ridiculous.

Not ridiculous enough to deter you from signing up though.

[Bokpiel]

You obviously have not seen the news with the shortening of quarantine times then? Most of CX passenger loads are at 98%

This will surely upset the doom and gloomers. They just can't/wont accept that HK is indeed opening up and it will get better.

https://simpleflying.com/cathay-pacific-july-passenger-numbers-300-percent-increase/

From the article:

"On August 16th, Cathay Pacific (https://simpleflying.com/tag/cathay-pacific/) released its traffic figures for July 2022, which revealed that the airline carried a total of 219,746 passengers, an increase of 306.2% compared to July 2021 but still 93.3% less than the pre-pandemic level in July 2019. Cathay’s passenger load factor (https://simpleflying.com/tag/load-factor/) increased by 44.7% to 73.3%, while capacity, measured in available seat kilometers (ASKs), increased by 74.6% year-on-year, but still 87.6% less than July 2019 levels."

So not only was your 98% load factor all made up (which I think we all knew) and greatly over-exaggerated, but the traffic is still a tiny fraction of pre-covid levels. :ugh:

[veryoldchinahand]

Your point being exactly what Bokpiel ?
Also the source of your perhaps superior information re loads would be interesting to many of us to know.

[Bokpiel]

Your point being exactly what Bokpiel ?
Also the source of your perhaps superior information re loads would be interesting to many of us to know.

???

My point is to correct him, with proof. At least I have a source.

[BuzzBox]

Also the source of your perhaps superior information re loads would be interesting to many of us to know.

The source of that information isn’t hard to find. The data is published each month on the Cathay Pacific and HKEX websites.
Cathay Pacific July 2022 Traffic Figures (https://www.cathaypacific.com/content/dam/cx/about-us/investor-relations/announcements/en/202208_cxtraffic_en.pdf)

[Papa123]

The source of that information isn’t hard to find. The data is published each month on the Cathay Pacific and HKEX websites.
Cathay Pacific July 2022 Traffic Figures (https://www.cathaypacific.com/content/dam/cx/about-us/investor-relations/announcements/en/202208_cxtraffic_en.pdf)
Hmm, so capacity increased from 9 to 12%. Cargo is flat, and passenger travel is “sparking” from HK vacationers and seasonal student travel.

Sounds epic. Where can I buy stock?

[Klimax]

Hmm, so capacity increased from 9 to 12%. Cargo is flat, and passenger travel is “sparking” from HK vacationers and seasonal student travel.

Sounds epic. Where can I buy stock?
lmfao. what a sinking ship that is. Who wears floaties??

[cxflog]

Has anyone heard of Cathay Pacific now requiring new joiners to sign for a training loan ( aka training bond)
Worth $280000 hkd over 36 months?

Have fun being bonded for 3 years :ok:

[cxhk]

Average 777 pilot isn't flying at all.
Average Airbus pilot is doing 45 hours.

Only the 747 guys are flying reasonable hours.
No 747's parked.

Hkg isn't really opening any time soo. Thus cx is a cargo airline for the foreseeable future.

So - There's no shortage of pilots.

There's 2500 guys on the seniority list.

Costs to hire and train new pilots as we slowly open up over the next two or more years will be a billion dollars plus - however they've saved double that on cos18 and everyone that quit over the past two years...

I fail to see the problem...

777 pilot is not flying, but you also need to consider the fact that not many 777 pilots left. Most have been transfer to 747 or have quit.

Average Airbus doing 45 hours, that's a bit misleading.
Closed loop Airbus are average 85+ hours (mostly long haul with some regional pax flight)
Non-Closed loop Airbus are below the fleet threshold, so yes they are indeed averaging around 45+ hours. However all of these guys are operating COP or China Flight or regional sector or mini loop (ie: pax flight + Q3). Flying 45 to 50 hours, most guys are already on a very busy roster with not much ability to roster more flight unless the government remove some restrictions on test and hold or mini loop quarantine restrictions. And yes, more then 90% of the whole Airbus (330/350) fleet are already back on the line. So unless they get more crew, they won't be about to mount more sectors. So definitely a shortage if they want to ramp up even more.

747 guys, yes they are working very hard and we all know that. They are also making a lot of money, more then their old contract, with some guys flying up to 100+ hours a month.

So is there a shortage? Yes and No.

Flying the current level of flight, there are NO shortage.

​​​If we ever want to ramp up, then yes there will be a shortage, but not a significant one. Because it depends on how big of an airline, CX will be post COVID? Currently, CX has about 2450 pilots. This is similar to the number of pilots back in 2007/8, at that time, CX has around 120 aircraft. In the last annual report, CX (not including HK express or HK Airline) has 188 aircraft (this is down form 245 from before COVID). Assuming they will shink the airline and get rid of all the 777-300ER on lease, as well as any A330 and A321 on lease, that will bring the fleet size down to 160 aircraft. To man 160 aircraft, they will around 3300 pilots. So essentially, they are around 900 pilot short.

And since the airline are not going to instantly return to full flying. We can expect that their plan will be to ramp up back to around 3300 pilots with 160 aircraft. The management thinks they can hire 500 cadets within 2 to 3 years. So they need to hire another 400 direct entry pilots. Will they be able to do it? Who knows?

So yes they are short of pilots for 160 aircraft.

Now of course if the business case changes and they want to be a bigger airline (maybe back to 245 aircraft, pre-COVID level)? Then all I can say is, Good Luck to the management team.

[cxskywalker]

Please for god sake. Clearly a lot of people don’t understand how this industry work.

Let’s make it clear on the pilot shortage numbers.
It doesn’t matter what it is right now! One of the key of running an airline business is to look ahead! Which CX and lots of people here has no idea about. Undoubtedly it is approximately one pilot leaving everyday as per the current rate.

People will be like: oh **** it let’s raise the package when we need pilots. But they don’t understand pilot don’t come in overnight like an office lady. Pilot needs training, guess where’s the training come from? Trainers. Where trainers come from? Senior standards Trainer. What do they need to train? Simulators ? How many do we have? Then the next questions come in

**** it we just gonna hire experience pilots!
Generally speaking if you are an experience jet pilot you would be around late 20s early 30s ( I am not talking about SO here). It which leads to some other questions.

e.g. can I survive with COS 18 with my family ? How much does a kid cost go the school? Medical plan well enough support my family ? How big is my shoebox gonna be ? Does CX respect what is a contract or my salary just gonna get cut another 20% tomorrow ?

What people don’t understand the pilot industry is not exactly how much you earning but it’s about how much you get in net income. People often compare different airlines it’s not exactly apple to apple. HK is no doubt the most expensive city. Just simply put yourself into the questions above why would an experience pilot wanna go on a one way road and come to Hong Kong where’s there are more options out there?

Another way of seeing it is CX was a great option back then perhaps even with COS08 with no housing. But now CX might have just fall into the average or even lower category in my opinion.

For people saying being a captain should have just taken 5 mins coffees with the chief pilot clearly have no idea what this job is about. They think the job and the industry is as simple as just serving a coffee or a beer at the bar.

There are way more better ways to deal with this crisis e.g. temporary pay cut but with the same contract just to show we are on the same bloody boat. In the last 30 years you might heard lots of people are leaving but nothing happened. I am sorry this time is legit and this is a huge wave that none of the cx management has ever seen. Ironically enough, some people might think giving few thousands on pilot allowence or China flights gonna make a difference ? Clearly not.

P.S STW when you said China pilots can come and work for CX it just shown you have no idea what aviation is like in China. I suggested you can do a lot more research first. Btw I just have 3 Chinese local pilot colleagues left two months ago.

[Zi Peng]

777 pilot is not flying, but you also need to consider the fact that not many 777 pilots left. Most have been transfer to 747 or have quit.

Average Airbus doing 45 hours, that's a bit misleading.
Closed loop Airbus are average 85+ hours (mostly long haul with some regional pax flight)
Non-Closed loop Airbus are below the fleet threshold, so yes they are indeed averaging around 45+ hours. However all of these guys are operating COP or China Flight or regional sector or mini loop (ie: pax flight + Q3). Flying 45 to 50 hours, most guys are already on a very busy roster with not much ability to roster more flight unless the government remove some restrictions on test and hold or mini loop quarantine restrictions. And yes, more then 90% of the whole Airbus (330/350) fleet are already back on the line. So unless they get more crew, they won't be about to mount more sectors. So definitely a shortage if they want to ramp up even more.

747 guys, yes they are working very hard and we all know that. They are also making a lot of money, more then their old contract, with some guys flying up to 100+ hours a month.

So is there a shortage? Yes and No.

Flying the current level of flight, there are NO shortage.

​​​If we ever want to ramp up, then yes there will be a shortage, but not a significant one. Because it depends on how big of an airline, CX will be post COVID? Currently, CX has about 2450 pilots. This is similar to the number of pilots back in 2007/8, at that time, CX has around 120 aircraft. In the last annual report, CX (not including HK express or HK Airline) has 188 aircraft (this is down form 245 from before COVID). Assuming they will shink the airline and get rid of all the 777-300ER on lease, as well as any A330 and A321 on lease, that will bring the fleet size down to 160 aircraft. To man 160 aircraft, they will around 3300 pilots. So essentially, they are around 900 pilot short.

And since the airline are not going to instantly return to full flying. We can expect that their plan will be to ramp up back to around 3300 pilots with 160 aircraft. The management thinks they can hire 500 cadets within 2 to 3 years. So they need to hire another 400 direct entry pilots. Will they be able to do it? Who knows?

So yes they are short of pilots for 160 aircraft.

Now of course if the business case changes and they want to be a bigger airline (maybe back to 245 aircraft, pre-COVID level)? Then all I can say is, Good Luck to the management team.

SCMP:

“HongKong transport companies: CityBus and First Bus report they are not worried about Cathay’s Cadet hiring targets. An unnamed employee in talent management went off the record to say; ‘from what we hear the contract and working conditions at CX are so bad our drivers are in no hurry to earn less, take on debt, or spend weeks locked up for a virus with 0.008% mortality rate. Our drivers can move swiftly up the ranks and upgrade to double decker is running at 6 months, not 6 years’.

Both companies confirmed they will will be warding off any poaching attempts by CX recruiters, if any of them still exist.”

[MENELAUS]

SCMP:

“HongKong transport companies: CityBus and First Bus report they are not worried about Cathay’s Cadet hiring targets. An unnamed employee in talent management went off the record to say; ‘from what we hear the contract and working conditions at CX are so bad our drivers are in no hurry to earn less, take on debt, or spend weeks locked up for a virus with 0.008% mortality rate. Our drivers can move swiftly up the ranks and upgrade to double decker is running at 6 months, not 6 years’.

Both companies confirmed they will will be warding off any poaching attempts by CX recruiters, if any of them still exist.”

Outstanding. !!

[TinFoilhat2]

So in almost a year since the last post what is the current condition of CX and her pilot group? Any improvements, changes or has the Titanic sunk?

Did the hiring improve or get worse?

[Asianexpress]

So in almost a year since the last post what is the current condition of CX and her pilot group? Any improvements, changes or has the Titanic sunk?

Did the hiring improve or get worse?

Rumor has it that DEC hiring will start in the 4th quarter.

Preference given to those with PR and a HKG ATPL with significant Command experience on wide body jets.

[Oasis]

Good luck to any new hire DEC without typhoon experience, and their crew and passengers. That's probably why they are doing it closer to the end of the year, so they can e-mail them some powerpoint slides about it before the crap hits the fan.

Any Captain with significant time in widebody jets willing to move to Hong Kong without a proper contract and a working rostering system either has some serious skeletons in their closet or a screw loose.

[controlledrest]

So in almost a year since the last post what is the current condition of CX and her pilot group? Any improvements, changes or has the Titanic sunk?

Did the hiring improve or get worse?

For all the recruitment, the total number of pilots remains the same. We had 3800. End of COVID 2410. Currently 2410.

SOs coming off CPL course doing baggage handling and check-in at the airport. Existing SOs might be able to transfer to Express. Too many SOs, not enough Capt and Relief Command to crew flights which would need a SO.

Command courses over 4 years out of seniority.

SFOs who took sick leave bypassed for command for a year - lack of resilience (a great bit of intimidation and a really safe bit of management).

[Asianexpress]

Good luck to any new hire DEC without typhoon experience, and their crew and passengers. That's probably why they are doing it closer to the end of the year, so they can e-mail them some powerpoint slides about it before the crap hits the fan.

Any Captain with significant time in widebody jets willing to move to Hong Kong without a proper contract and a working rostering system either has some serious skeletons in their closet or a screw loose.

Agree Oasis.


Do not know where they may find experienced Captain's who hold PR and wide body time to fly in typhoons.

[BuzzBox]

Do not know where they may find experienced Captain's who hold PR and wide body time to fly in typhoons.

I do. Not sure any of them would want to move to Hong Kong though...

[corporal klinger]

Ah, the pilot shortage.. Guys, you still don't acknowledge how bad contracts are elsewhere. Plus, if there ever is a shortage it won't be at Cathay in HK, it will be at ( not really) Greater Bay or Air Hong Kong. Besides, if a contract is good enough for you to stay, it's good enough for others to join. Arrogance is misplaced. Also a lot of guys fly barely above productivity threshold now, I say shortage is (very unfortunately) wishful thinking I am afraid.

[magenta magnet]

"fly in typhoons"

I just spat my coffee all over my laptop as I laughed out loud. "So Bob how many Typhoons have you flown into?"
I will now spend the rest of my rest period cleaning my laptop.

[Zi Peng]

Is training a DEC faster or cheaper than upgrading a 15 years FO often with good previous experience sometimes command time as well ? Those guys might have even seen a typhoon if lucky enough!
Asking for a friend.

[Dragon Pacific]

Is training a DEC faster or cheaper than upgrading a 15 years FO often with good previous experience sometimes command time as well ? Those guys might have even seen a typhoon if lucky enough!
Asking for a friend.

It’s faster and cheaper if they are ex KA, there are still quite a few KA CNs who didn’t want to take the JFO slots that were on offer but who would come back for DEC.
A “short course” is being proposed for them.

[Zi Peng]

It’s faster and cheaper if they are ex KA, there are still quite a few KA CNs who didn’t want to take the JFO slots that were on offer but who would come back for DEC.
A “short course” is being proposed for them.

If upgrades are on type I seriously doubt it.

[lucille]

"fly in typhoons"

I just spat my coffee all over my laptop as I laughed out loud. "So Bob how many Typhoons have you flown into?"
I will now spend the rest of my rest period cleaning my laptop.

The last grasp of the straw, when all you’ve got left to play is the good old typhoon card.

[Baywatcher]

Lucille I too laughed out loud re flying in typhoons! These tossers are deluded. With the advent of windsheer warnings there is no longer seat of the pants flying!

[Oasis]

If I knew the captain was brand new on the aircraft, first departure/arrival into a typhoon.

I would not want my wife and kids on that aircraft.

Everyone has a different risk tolerance.

[Silent Treatment]

I’ll have to ask if the captain on my Lufthansa flight tomorrow to HKG is typhoon certified.

[Baywatcher]

He / She will have been trained to CX standard which is such a high standard!

[pfvspnf]

Can put typhoon rating on resume ? Better if in license to show recruitment team

[Oasis]

Lol, ok now you guys are making me laugh, touche.

[SOPS]

I’ll have to ask if the captain on my Lufthansa flight tomorrow to HKG is typhoon certified.

I flew wide bodies for years in and out of Hong Kong. I was unaware I meant to be Typhoon Certified to do this. How do you get certified? 😊

[Farman Biplane]

Perhaps there should also be a sub-category on your Typhoon Rating,
I suggest T1, T3, T8, T9 and T10 sub-classes to the vaunted rating!
ICAO will no doubt setup a working and feasibility group to consult equatorial regulatory authorities worldwide…….

[Oasis]

The rating will specify the typhoon name and severity you got your rating in, and if the wind came over the hills or not.

[nike]

He / She will have been trained to CX standard which is such a high standard!

they/them

[Rachy2024]

Weary traveller, could I DM you about this?

[cx123456]

It maybe the best time to apply CX cadet program due to the pilot shortage. Quotas of program may increase to solve the shortage.

[Oddball77]

It maybe the best time to apply CX cadet program due to the pilot shortage. Quotas of program may increase to solve the shortage.
Zero pilot shortage, never has been and never will be.

[main_dog]

If by pilots you mean inexperienced cadets, absolutely.

If instead you mean aircrew experienced enough to occupy a RHS or LHS, au contraire, we’re blatantly in the middle of one now (mostly self-induced).

[Zi Peng]

If by pilots you mean inexperienced cadets, absolutely.

If instead you mean aircrew experienced enough to occupy a RHS or LHS, au contraire, we’re blatantly in the middle of one now (mostly self-induced).

Indeed.
Numbers ? We are good and getting better.
Experience/quality, very different story.
The huge transfusion from the 74 to other fleets says it all.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Or just ask one of the dozens of guys who recently came back why.

[Gnadenburg]

Or just ask one of the dozens of guys who recently came back why.

I wish they would come back in genuine numbers because the network and cancellations making retiree travel lousy.

Contract out your freighter operation so you can expand.

[SaulGoodman]

I wish they would come back in genuine numbers because the network and cancellations making retiree travel lousy.

Contract out your freighter operation so you can expand.

sure… because other (747) freighter aren’t busy at all and have all the pilots/planes available…

Maybe you can solve the Russo Ukranian war, stop the houthi’s, solve out the rest of the middle east and make it rain in Panama. Thereafter there might be some availability.

[Gnadenburg]

sure… because other (747) freighter aren’t busy at all and have all the pilots/planes available…

Maybe you can solve the Russo Ukranian war, stop the houthi’s, solve out the rest of the middle east and make it rain in Panama. Thereafter there might be some availability.


OK Mister Angry then there is a genuine pilot shortage crippling business opportunities at CX.

I really don’t know why sone folks on here seem to take the side of a clumsy management. A few pilot coming back isn’t alleviating the shortage STW.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Possibly. But apparently they prefer to expand slower and keeping the costs low. They have all the data,we don't. Some guy sitting in front of his Excel told a guy a floor up number in column A is bigger than B...

[main_dog]

That’s pretty much it. They would rather a smaller airline but maintain an absolute chokehold on costs.

As to asking the dozens of re-hires about why they’re back, it’s indeed quite illuminating. But in the context of expanding to at least our former size, it might also be instructive to hear from the hundreds who aren’t coming back…

[viking avenger]

Any reason to come back no longer exists under the current COS.

[Freehills]

That’s pretty much it. They would rather a smaller airline but maintain an absolute chokehold on costs.

As to asking the dozens of re-hires about why they’re back, it’s indeed quite illuminating. But in the context of expanding to at least our former size, it might also be instructive to hear from the hundreds who aren’t coming back…

what reasons for coming back? Family ties? Miss having a maid? Don’t like domestic/ LCC flying? Genuinely interested

[corporal klinger]

Compare the salary and working hours to Europe, Australia, NZ or South Africa and you have your answer.

[SunnyTheSemen]

Recruitment yet numbers lower than before Covid. Shortage of Captains, Abundance of shiny SOs

[Dingleberry Handpump]

Possibly. But apparently they prefer to expand slower and keeping the costs low.
Hahaha good one. They have had their arm forced into it.

A few people dribbling back from bottom feeder jobs tells you very little. As pointed out, perhaps more info is available from the hundreds (actually, that’s a decimal point off) that aren’t.

At this point, there is no demand for expansion beyond piecing some semblance of an airline back together, post Covid.

There is significant difficulty and mind-bending required to envision a bright future for HK. The 4 economic pillars the govt once touted have been demolished. The latest data on them (trade/tourism/finance/professional services) is available, and it really is ugly.

The business traveller premium passenger - the once bread & butter of CX - have now diverted to and through SIN/DXB/etc. The passenger demographic will merely adjust to reflect the quality and profile of tourist found in HK now.

Party is over. Good thing I sold my flat when I did, too. The potential contagion from the property market up north doesn’t bear thinking about.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Your statements about expansion are completely wrong.The opposite is true. Growth rates at HKIA are almost triple digits, CX just announced record profits and has 70+ aircraft on order.

[Babyjet_dododo]

Your statements about expansion are completely wrong.The opposite is true. Growth rates at HKIA are almost triple digits, CX just announced record profits and has 70+ aircraft on order.

How many are to replace current aircrafts in service? Last I heard CX is not looking to expand anywhere else except mainland China, and that’s only with HKE

[SaulGoodman]

OK Mister Angry then there is a genuine pilot shortage crippling business opportunities at CX.

I really don’t know why sone folks on here seem to take the side of a clumsy management. A few pilot coming back isn’t alleviating the shortage STW.

I’m not angry I’m just stating that contracting out the cargo ops (the goose with the golden eggs) of an operation as big as CX Cargo is nearly impossible in the current cargo business. Charter prices ex HKG are soaring again. It would probably make more sense to ground aircraft on less profitable routes and keep the 74F’s flying. And that’s what they are doing, or at least trying..

[KABOY]

Your statements about expansion are completely wrong.The opposite is true. Growth rates at HKIA are almost triple digits, CX just announced record profits and has 70+ aircraft on order.

Let's not let the truth get in front of good story. CX early retired 34 aircraft in 2021 so by the time the 70th order arrives there will be another 30+ retirements due to favorable tax concessions CX receives from the IRD. The current 777-300 fleet is over 20 years old with the 330 fleet approaching 16.

'HKIA hitting triple digit growth' lets look at this a little deeper. HK quarantine was scrapped at the end of 2022, the triple digit growth was compared to that year. Not very impressive when the movement rate was 138,700 in 2022 compared to 419,795 in 2019.

Anyway, seems like costs are nicely under control with executive directors taking an average 30%+ pay rise from the previous year. Cathay Pacific, an airline that lets it executive lead by example. Now how much was your pay rise his year? That right it was a bonus.

[Dingleberry Handpump]

Your statements about expansion are completely wrong.The opposite is true. Growth rates at HKIA are almost triple digits, CX just announced record profits and has 70+ aircraft on order.
It’s hard to know where to begin with this garbage..

Even you can’t be so dense as to take those figures at face value?

Perhaps you’re right, though. HK is prospering and CX is in wait, in order to capitalise on the phoenix from the ashes story of the city. That’s certainly the trend, isn’t it?

[Sam Ting Wong]

Here are the latest growth rate of HKIA :

https://www.aci-asiapac.aero/media-centre/news/hkia-records-significant-growth-in-passenger-traffic-in-february

Here are the latest profit reports of Cathay :

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-13/cathay-pacific-2023-operating-profit-hits-record-1-9-billion

this is the order book:

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/cathay-pacific-market-new-mid-sized-widebody-planes-2024-01-04/

Tell me which part you find difficult to understand, I am here to help.