Lobbing Rockets

[kamanya]

A recent video of a pair or Russian SU 25's shooting the larger of the two unguided rockets that it is capable of firing - the S13.

For those who have shot similar things from jets or helicopters and have some experience with the ballistics of these things, it seems as if both these guys are lobbing or toss bombing them. Or have I got that wrong?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hW-AQWJu1M

[NutLoose]

Yes they are, they then become far less accurate, but allows them to throw them further, thus avoiding overflying possible anti air assets.

See

https://twitter.com/sith1144/status/1504404495412961287

[harrogate]

And what's the level of job satisfaction with lobbing rockets into the abyss like that? This is just about hitting anything on the ground in Ukraine, right?

[Lonewolf_50]

And what's the level of job satisfaction with lobbing rockets into the abyss like that? This is just about hitting anything on the ground in Ukraine, right?
I won't try to read the mind of that pilot, but they may have been on task to provide suppressive fires at grid xyzabc, and thus were letting go with rockets.
There's a thing I've heard various attack pilots refer to as "Self SEAD" (which a certain Apache raid in 2003 ought to have had more of. What would have been used for that (self SEAD) would likely have been unguided 2.75 "rockets and (perhaps) main guns. (SEAD is Suppression of Enemy Air Defense).

[ShyTorque]

The RAF used a bombing technique with their Buccaneers which was similar. The aircraft would be pulled hard nose up from fast and low and the bomb let go. The aircraft would then quickly depart the scene. If my memory is correct, it was known as the “Lepus and toss” technique. The Lepus was a very powerful illumination flare. I never flew the type, but many, many years ago (47 I think) I was responsible for booking range slots for them!

Beagle might be able to explain in more detail because he did fly them.

[NutLoose]

Jags too, one advantage at low level you could lob them over a hill etc and depart.

https://hushkit.net/2021/07/19/i-flew-the-cold-war-jaguar-fighter-bomber/

https://infogalactic.com/info/Toss_bombing

[kamanya]

There's also the question, I wonder why both aircraft have a really small loadout? The other pylons have nothing on them and those aircraft can carry 4.5 tons of ****.

[Lonewolf_50]

There's also the question, I wonder why both aircraft have a really small loadout? The other pylons have nothing on them and those aircraft can carry 4.5 tons of ****. They might have dropped a bit before the camera began to roll ... hard to say.

[Timelord]

The RAF used a bombing technique with their Buccaneers which was similar. The aircraft would be pulled hard nose up from fast and low and the bomb let go. The aircraft would then quickly depart the scene. If my memory is correct, it was known as the “Lepus and toss” technique. The Lepus was a very powerful illumination flare. I never flew the type, but many, many years ago (47 I think) I was responsible for booking range slots for them!

Beagle might be able to explain in more detail because he did fly them.

Most previous generation ground attack aircraft could “loft” or “toss” (subtle difference) bombs. Buccaneers, Jaguars and GR Tornados certainly did in the RAF but these were computed releases against a target position. Firing rockets on an unknown trajectory in the general direction of the enemy is not quite the same thing.

[Mogwi]

Jags too, one advantage at low level you could lob them over a hill etc and depart.

Unless the hill you are lofting/tossing over has just been taken in a huge bloody battle and the fired up friendlies fire up! Luckily their accuracy was about as good as their aircraft recognition. Can’t blame them though, I couldn’t have done their job.

Mog

[NutLoose]

:E


…………..

[Union Jack]

The RAF used a bombing technique with their Buccaneers which was similar. The aircraft would be pulled hard nose up from fast and low and the bomb let go. The aircraft would then quickly depart the scene. If my memory is correct, it was known as the “Lepus and toss” technique. The Lepus was a very powerful illumination flare. I never flew the type, but many, many years ago (47 I think) I was responsible for booking range slots for them!

Beagle might be able to explain in more detail because he did fly them.

As did the Fleet Air Arm with the Buccaneers in their previous existence, and of course Sea Vixens and even Scimitars.

Jack

[BEagle]

Basic Buccaneer attack was the 'Medium Toss'. At around 3 mi from the target, having 'accepted' the attack, the strike sight symbology showed a 'dot' which you pitched to keep centred. When half a dozen servos in the analogue computer decided the moment was right, off came the bomb. Then 110° of bank and down to a reciprocal escape heading.

Accurate to within about 100ft at Wainfleet!

Apologies for any errors, it was 45 years ago and I wasn't good enough to pass the very demanding OCU course.

[ShyTorque]

Basic Buccaneer attack was the 'Medium Toss'. At around 3 mi from the target, having 'accepted' the attack, the strike sight symbology showed a 'dot' which you pitched to keep centred. When half a dozen servos in the analogue computer decided the moment was right, off came the bomb. Then 110° of bank and down to a reciprocal escape heading.

Accurate to within about 100ft at Wainfleet!

Apologies for any errors, it was 45 years ago and I wasn't good enough to pass the very demanding OCU course.

Ah yes, from my short (and unhappy) time in ops under that regime, they probably demanded 99 feet…

[BEagle]

Weaponeering was one of the few things I could actually do on the Bucc! I was top of the student bombing ladder by a fair margin when I was binned....

[EGDLaddict]

Don't forget the 'over the shoulder' technique.

[dead_pan]

Both sides have been using this tactic, with both fixed and rotary wing. Of course it doesn't always go to plan:

https://twitter.com/war_news247/status/1510338945397280772?t=AX-Use5__owUmYBGYOmD8Q&s=19

[dead_pan]

I won't try to read the mind of that pilot, but they may have been on task to provide suppressive fires at grid xyzabc, and thus were letting go with rockets.
There's a thing I've heard various attack pilots refer to as "Self SEAD" (which a certain Apache raid in 2003 ought to have had more of. What would have been used for that (self SEAD) would likely have been unguided 2.75 "rockets and (perhaps) main guns. (SEAD is Suppression of Enemy Air Defense).

Ah yes as recounted in the excellent film 'Apache Warrior'. Notwithstanding the bravery and professionalism of those which participated in the raid, the whole debacle demonstrated to me that hubris and misplaced pride were alive and well in western militaries, a point worth bearing in mind when criticising the likes of Russia for such failings.

I wonder if the term "Self SEAD" is designed to make them feel better about their odds? I can't believe there are many attack helo crews who would honestly rate their chances against modern Triple A or SAM systems using only their unguided weaponry.

[megan]

I wasn't good enough to pass the very demanding OCU courseCare to expand on what you found difficult BEagle, provide we who stand in awe some appreciation of the difficulties faced.

[tcinbg]

I seem to remember, or maybe my mind is playing tricks on me, a Jaguar QFI tossing 1000 pound bombs at a bombing range in Scotland, after release he rolled the aircraft and flew along with the bomb. Just as he flew away from the bomb if prematurely exploded. Fortunately he was well away from it at that time.

[Sleeve Wing]

>>> and even Scimitars <<<.
Thanks, Jack, for mentioning the FAA and the much maligned Beast. Just a bit before it's time and then totally overshadowed by the Buccaneer.
We were using the technique with the Scimitar back in the early 60s when it was known as LABS, (Low Altitude Bombing System) this on "a certain rock" to the north of Scotland.
This entailled the use of a Toss Bombing computer plus Blue Silk, a Doppler radar, to deliver Red Beard, the necessity of course to "lob/toss" on the correct trajectory and then get going as fast as possible in the opposite direction !

[DODGYOLDFART]

If my memory serves me well the Canberra B(I)8's perfected the LABS technique in Germany circa 1958.

[Lonewolf_50]

I wonder if the term "Self SEAD" is designed to make them feel better about their odds? I can't believe there are many attack helo crews who would honestly rate their chances against modern Triple A or SAM systems using only their unguided weaponry. I am dredging up (from memory) a conversation with a Marine Snake pilot (AH-1W) from the early 00's. His observation was that they usually flew with a mix of Hellfires and 2.75 rockets, while at the time Army Apache tended to lean more heavily towards Hellfires and his observation (from joint ops?Exercises?) was they weren't as likely to assign various parts of the attack force with SEAD as that was seen as a dilution of combat power.
As there have been a lot of lessons learned published in re Iraq war since then, that's not a reliable observation at this remove.
The sensor-to-shooter link now has a lot more input (over all) from unarmed and / or unmanned assets (OH-58 has gone the way of the plains Buffalo).
How SEAD fits into that is something that may once again change as lessons learned from this conflict get digested.