Bloomberg: Murder-Suicides by Pilots Are Vexing Airlines as Deaths Mount

[slfool]

For decades, commercial airline travel has gotten progressively safer. But one cause of deaths has stubbornly persisted: pilots who intentionally crash in murder-suicides.

Preliminary evidence suggests the crash of a China Eastern Airlines Corp. (https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/600115:CH) jet in March may be the latest such tragedy, a person familiar with the investigation said. If confirmed, that would make it the fourth since 2013, bringing deaths in those crashes to 554.

So as aircraft become more reliable and pilots grow less susceptible to errors, fatalities caused by murder-suicides are becoming an increasingly large share of the total. While intentional acts traditionally aren’t included in air-crash statistics, they would be the second-largest category of deaths worldwide if they were, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. By comparison, 1,745 people died as a result of pilot error, mechanical failures or other causes on Western-built jets from 2012 through 2021.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-13/murder-suicides-by-pilots-are-vexing-airlines-as-deaths-mount

[ferry pilot]

Not that long ago the career path to a front seat in an airliner was not for the faint of heart. You learned the hard way, through bitter and painful experience, that aviation is a tough and unforgiving business.

[phylosocopter]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-13/murder-suicides-by-pilots-are-vexing-airlines-as-deaths-mount
If the "person familiar with the investigation" has any roll in that investigation, it is my sincere wish that they be identified, sacked and blacklisted from any further involvement in aviation safety! However a more likely scenario is that this "person" is pure fiction and the media is simply amplifying some of the uninformed crap from these pages.

[swh]

If the "person familiar with the investigation" has any roll in that investigation, it is my sincere wish that they be identified, sacked and blacklisted from any further involvement in aviation safety! However a more likely scenario is that this "person" is pure fiction and the media is simply amplifying some of the uninformed crap from these pages.

it could be someone like Geoffrey Thomas who has no qualifications or experience in aviation, no technical background, yet news agencies quote him on aviation accidents. Being familiar with the investigation could simply mean they have read the CAAC press releases.

Almost everything regarding in newspapers is written by people who have no idea what they are talking about, they were the arts students at university.

[70 Mustang]

Solution: give each pilot and each cabin crew a gun, and make sure there are at least two in the flight deck at all times.

in briefing room: have each crew member sign a form “I am not suicidal. Today”

simples

[Lonewolf_50]

Solution: give each pilot and each cabin crew a gun, and make sure there are at least two in the flight deck at all times.

in briefing room: have each crew member sign a form “I am not suicidal. Today”

simples It's been a few years, but I seem to recall that after 9-11 some American pilots were carrying personal weapons on the flight deck.
(I'll ask a recently retired Southwest Captain I know if he did, because I think that he did for a while if I try to resurrect some conversations we had while he was still flying...). That would offer a precedent for armed FOs and Captains on the flight deck. (Though I suspect that your recommendation is made with tongue squarely in cheek).
Not sure if that was a thing in other places.
I love your screening form proposal. :cool:

[Carbon Bootprint]

It's been a few years, but I seem to recall that after 9-11 some American pilots were carrying personal weapons on the flight deck.
(I'll ask a recently retired Southwest Captain I know if he did, because I think that he did for a while if I try to resurrect some conversations we had while he was still flying...). That would offer a precedent for armed FOs and Captains on the flight deck. (Though I suspect that your recommendation is made with tongue squarely in cheek).
Not sure if that was a thing in other places.
I love your screening form proposal. :cool:
Sounds like the Federal Flight Deck Officer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Flight_Deck_Officer)program. I remember it was pretty much under the radar until a US Airways captain inadvertantly put a round through the side of an Airbus (as noted in the Wiki piece). Not sure if it's still an active program.

[Lookleft]

What is the rate of suicide deaths of pilots, of all causes not just by crashing, compared to other professions? Is it higher than for doctors or lawyers? Being an airline pilot was once a stable career with good pay and conditions. Covid standowns are just one of a number of situations that have changed the career. If the question of murder suicides is vexing the airlines then maybe they need to look at themselves and their part in the erosion of pilot mental health.

[Boeingdriver999]

"Hundreds of pilots currently flying are managing depressive symptoms perhaps without the possibility of treatment due to the fear of negative career impacts. This study found 233 (12.6%) airline pilots meeting depression threshold and 75 (4.1%) pilots reporting having suicidal thoughts. Although results have limited generalizability, there are a significant number of active pilots suffering from depressive symptoms. We recommend airline organizations increase support for preventative mental health treatment. Future research will evaluate additional risk factors of depression such as sleep and circadian rhythm disturbances. "

From 'Airplane pilot mental health and suicidal thoughts: a cross-sectional descriptive study via anonymous web-based survey; by Wu, et al.

Results: The weighted prevalence of S[uicide] I[ntervention] was 2.84% in the past week, 5.50% in the past year, and 18.49% during a lifetime.

From 'Prevalence of suicidal ideation and associated risk factors in the general population' by Lee, et al.



TL;DR suicide ideation in pilots versus general population was 70% greater.

Caveat; suicide ideation is not actual suicide but it would be a precursor. The data is just not fine enough for rates of actual suicide amongst pilots. However; anecdotally I know first hand of some pilots who have committed suicide. How many pilots do I know? Hard to guesstimate but let's say 200? I'd hazard a WAG and say the rate of suicide is less than 1%.

[White Knight]

I think the simple matter of ensuring there is another person in the flight deck at all times, would keep the humanity in even the most depressed pilot.

I doubt that would be the case……….

And it’s not just a recent kind of behavior; a JAL skipper tried to crash a DC-8 at Haneda some years ago on final approach. There was an FO and an FE in the flight deck with him at the time!

[anxiao]

"Tried to crash a DC-8...." ???

I think you will find he succeeded with 24 fatalities and a written off aircraft. The crash reports are easily available online.

[p7lot]

Not that long ago the career path to a front seat in an airliner was not for the faint of heart. You learned the hard way, through bitter and painful experience, that aviation is a tough and unforgiving business.
Surely the best way for anything in life

[1201alarm]

Murder-Suicides by Pilots Are Vexing Airlines as Deaths Mount - Bloomberg (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-13/murder-suicides-by-pilots-are-vexing-airlines-as-deaths-mount)

It is really a good piece of journalism by bloomberg, a wide variety of factors are described in an unemotional, fact-driven way. The main problem is also described: how to tackle the problem? All ideas so far have other much bigger disadvantages, as properly described in the article.

May be there is just a residual risk we have to live with? At least until someone really comes up with a convincing solution. So far I haven't seen one.

[White Knight]

"Tried to crash a DC-8...." ???

I think you will find he succeeded with 24 fatalities and a written off aircraft. The crash reports are easily available online.

I’m well aware that he succeeded thank you! I remember the photos of the semi submerged jet in the newspapers of the day; apologies if you didn’t get the ironic style of my prose😎

[PEI_3721]

Our perception of safety issues depends on how they are framed, which together with biases of thought, shape our interpretations.

Bloomberg highlights fatalities, but there are very few safety events; compare this with other aviation events / fatalities.

Beware of well meaning ‘safety interventions’ ; do not create unforeseen issues.

[tdracer]

It's going to be near impossible to prevent the PF from intentionally crashing an aircraft if they wait for the proper time - such as takeoff or final approach. A quick full nose down command at low altitude simply won't provide sufficient time for useful intervention. Heck, that Atlas Air 767 pilot did a bang-up job of it during approach into Houston a couple years back, and he wasn't even trying.
Short of giving HAL complete control (at which time why even have pilots), the only way to prevent suicidal pilots crashing aircraft is to identify them before hand and stop them from getting onboard.

[ATC Watcher]

the only way to prevent suicidal pilots crashing aircraft is to identify them before hand and stop them from getting onboard.
Everyone agree on that but no-one knows how to do it. In any country that is. The huge discussion/debates and various ideas after Germanwings did not come to anything in the end, because there is no real solution.
Most parents who lost a teenage kid to suicide will tell you they did not see it coming and they lived in the same house. The few that saw their kids was in distress and wanted to help could not prevent it either.. Dealing with mental illnesses is extremely difficult and is a subject very few want to talk about.,

[SRM]

I remember going to work in the late 70s-80s most people I flew loved flying, at that time a few individuals where a little different however never once did I think they where suicidal.
I guess if they had tried the fire axe would have been very handy.

[etrang]

If the "person familiar with the investigation" has any roll in that investigation, it is my sincere wish that they be identified, sacked and blacklisted from any further involvement in aviation safety! However a more likely scenario is that this "person" is pure fiction and the media is simply amplifying some of the uninformed crap from these pages.
Bloomberg is a reputable news agency. I doubt that they are making this up.

[ChrisVJ]

I agree with pretty well all the above but would like to add one more thing.
As school trustees we noticed a loss of resilience in our school population. I have several ideas about why and how to improve it however they mostly go against the grain of current educational thinking and going against the grain in such an organisation is both futile and likely to get one ostracized and then you have no influence at all.

[phylosocopter]

Bloomberg is a reputable news agency. I doubt that they are making this up.

They are not reputable! Any organisation that runs a headline in the form of ""bull**** unsupported misleading statement" says unnamed expert" has lost sight of their purpose. That headline demonstrates that they do not have a functioning editorial process and should therefore not receive any journalistic "public good" protection in the courts. I hope they get sued into insolvency for that.

[DaveReidUK]

They are not reputable! Any organisation that runs a headline in the form of ""bull**** unsupported misleading statement" says unnamed expert" has lost sight of their purpose. That headline demonstrates that they do not have a functioning editorial process and should therefore not receive any journalistic "public good" protection in the courts. I hope they get sued into insolvency for that.

Presumably your view applies also to the scurrilous Wall Street Journal, who have also commented on the intentional manoeuvre scenario ?

[FlightDetent]

Presumably your view applies also to the scurrilous Wall Street Journal, who have also commented on the intentional manoeuvre scenario ? They did get this piece correct, https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-catastrophic-media-failure-11553555444. Kudos.

[hart744]

I’m well aware that he succeeded thank you! I remember the photos of the semi submerged jet in the newspapers of the day; apologies if you didn’t get the ironic style of my prose😎

He did not succeed in committing suicide.

[ferry pilot]

Mass murder has become part of our culture. The airplane, unfortunately, provides an even greater guarantee of success at it than a weapon of war. Once unthinkable, the pilot willing to kill himself along with an airplane full of people is now an undeniable reality .And the inevitability of the next one is hardly less than that of the next school shooting.

[blue up]

A-checks, Annuals, heavy D-checks etc are all carried out on the aircraft. The Pilot gets a Medical every year and maybe 8 hours in the Sim to check their physical health and their skills level. Nowhere is there a check-up "from the neck up".

We standardise our Aircraft, we standardise our SOPs so why not the same for Pilots? Nobody is trained to spot the clinical indicators in their colleagues and thus the easiest solution would be to fire anyone who is in any way 'different'. That should thin the numbers down a bit.

Surely there is a better idea out there somewhere???

[Clop_Clop]

I can't read the article , but there is a explanation in "Revisiting Impulsivity in Suicide" where they point out that even if they had a 99% accurate tool measuring patients that would commit suicide. And hospitalise all of them. Because so few people are committing suicide means then same time that they would put 5 true cases out of a 100 in hospital. The other 95 shouldn't be there... So as someone mentioned earlier, it looks like it's not possible at the moment to do...

[MissChief]

It is simply not possible to rule this sort of tragedy out. . Suicide of a pilot, involving and often including all crew and passengers, is an unlikely but possible event. It will remain so. No medical examiner can identify this possibility with certainty. Nor can a sim examiner, line checker, nor colleague on the flight deck. Sad but true.There are quite a few pilot suicides (taboo words) which have occurred prior to report, and many in life between duties.

[etrang]

It is simply not possible to rule this sort of tragedy out. . Suicide of a pilot, involving and often including all crew and passengers, is an unlikely but possible event. It will remain so. No medical examiner can identify this possibility with certainty. Nor can a sim examiner, line checker, nor colleague on the flight deck. Sad but true.There are quite a few pilot suicides (taboo words) which have occurred prior to report, and many in life between duties.
You can eliminate pilot suicide crashes by removing pilots.

[hans brinker]

You can eliminate pilot suicide crashes by removing pilots.

And how excactly do you propose we identify every suicidal pilot without removing hundreds that were just in a bad mood?

[DaveReidUK]

And how exactly do you propose we identify every suicidal pilot without removing hundreds that were just in a bad mood?

I think the OP means remove all pilots ...

[slacktide]

And how excactly do you propose we identify every suicidal pilot without removing hundreds that were just in a bad mood?

You've quite missed the point. If you remove all the pilots, then you do not have do identify which ones are suicidal, because both the suicidal pilots and the bad-mood pilots will be standing on the ground, in the same unemployment line.

[hans brinker]

I think the OP means remove all pilots ...


You've quite missed the point. If you remove all the pilots, then you do not have do identify which ones are suicidal, because both the suicidal pilots and the bad-mood pilots will be standing on the ground, in the same unemployment line.

I was hoping that wasn’t his point.

“military statistics show the vast majority of flights go smoothly and the mishap rate has declined steadily over the past decade. Officials acknowledge however that drones will never be as safe as commercial airliners”
(from the richest country that spends the highest proportion on defense)


http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/06/20/when-drones-fall-from-the-sky/

[james ozzie]

Much of the debate assumes the suicidal pilot would do it while flying with innocent passengers. Surely a proportion of suicides might be performed away from work and alone, by one of the many available methods? Perhaps there are data already collected?

[Lonewolf_50]

The statistics mean nothing. That 'one off' event only accrues meaning when you are on that one plane that one day when the bitch or bastard decdies to drive it into the ground with everyone else going along for that ride.

Know your people, take care of your people, and having said that current airline management is not going to listen.
So it will happen again.
It's a matter of when, not if.

[172driver]

You can eliminate pilot suicide crashes by removing pilots.

Nope, you just shift the problem to the remote operators on the ground. Who, btw, will have much less qualms about crashing an airliner - they aren't sitting in it.

IMHO pilot suicide by crash is sjmply a residual risk we have to accept. Like in any endeavor in life.

[Sailvi767]

It's been a few years, but I seem to recall that after 9-11 some American pilots were carrying personal weapons on the flight deck.
(I'll ask a recently retired Southwest Captain I know if he did, because I think that he did for a while if I try to resurrect some conversations we had while he was still flying...). That would offer a precedent for armed FOs and Captains on the flight deck. (Though I suspect that your recommendation is made with tongue squarely in cheek).
Not sure if that was a thing in other places.
I love your screening form proposal. :cool:

No US pilots were or are carrying personal weapons on the flight deck. There is a Federal program where a pilot goes through fairly extensive training and becomes a Federal Flight deck officer. They carry a government issued weapon.

[Lonewolf_50]

No US pilots were or are carrying personal weapons on the flight deck. There is a Federal program where a pilot goes through fairly extensive training and becomes a Federal Flight deck officer. They carry a government issued weapon. Thanks for clearing that up (I had for sure remembered that incorrectly). It makes far more sense for a program like that to have a government issued weapon (and other provisions) than not to.
It would not be a means to deal with the topic of this thread, in any case.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Not that long ago the career path to a front seat in an airliner was not for the faint of heart. You learned the hard way, through bitter and painful experience, that aviation is a tough and unforgiving business.

The widespread stigma of depression is frightingly demonstrated even in this thread.

In eyes of many, mental health problems are seen as signs of some sort of weakness, and regurlarly a more "tough" handling is suggested as an effective cure. This anachronistic and unscientific approach is a significant problem. It motivates affected pilots to hide their illness.

Additionally, most loss of license insurance contracts exclude mental health issues, so an outing would have catastrophic financial repercussions.

[Luc Lion]

Much of the debate assumes the suicidal pilot would do it while flying with innocent passengers.
Another solution lies in the penultimate word of this statement.
Several infamous countries apply the capital punishment.
If one replaces "innocent passengers" with inmates extracted from the death row, the issue is also solved.

Luc

[ferry pilot]

Flying is part job satisfaction and part adaptation to the lifestyle. Technology has made the job safer and less difficult but nothing has changed the conflicting priorities of life and work. It is not for everyone, but not everyone still sees it that way.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Murder-Suicides by pilots are most certain the cause of undetected major mental illnesses as depression,borderline syndrome or shizophrenia. It has absolutely nothing to do with the job profile or "lifestyle".

[ferry pilot]

Murder-Suicides by pilots are most certain the cause of undetected major mental illnesses as depression,borderline syndrome or shizophrenia. It has absolutely nothing to do with the job profile or "lifestyle".
Perhaps your experience supports your conclusions. All I can say is mine does not. I flew for a very long time with a lot of pilots with a lot of problems, but not the one we are discussing here . Something has changed.

[Australopithecus]

I was hoping that wasn’t his point.

“military statistics show the vast majority of flights go smoothly and the mishap rate has declined steadily over the past decade. Officials acknowledge however that drones will never be as safe as commercial airliners”
(from the richest country that spends the highest proportion on defense)


http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/06/20/when-drones-fall-from-the-sky/

Hans, that article is eight years old. I am sure that progress has been made in that time, don’t you?

[FLCH]

Much of the debate assumes the suicidal pilot would do it while flying with innocent passengers. Surely a proportion of suicides might be performed away from work and alone, by one of the many available methods? Perhaps there are data already collected?

Agreed James Ozzie, in my 25+years of working in human factors for the union (ALPA) there has been a shift of attitudes with regards to self harm, one pilot I really enjoyed flying with, put a shotgun to himself rather than exposing himself to hurting others, but nowdays, I may be wrong.
Andreas Lubitz said his name would be noticed or remembered, if he decided to destroy himself and others. Maybe that's a generational thing I have no idea. Either way a very sad state of affairs.

[70 Mustang]

Keep a minimum of 3 people in the flight deck at all times. Chances are, at least one of them will want to keep living.

if that doesn’t work, go back to the old automation plan: a pilot and a dog. The pilot is there to feed the dog. The dog is there to bite the pilot if he touches anything.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Perhaps your experience supports your conclusions. All I can say is mine does not. I flew for a very long time with a lot of pilots with a lot of problems, but not the one we are discussing here . Something has changed.

1) Recorded suicides of pilots go back to the 1970's

2) Even if it was a new phenomenom, mind you that correlation does not mean automatically causation. There more pilots today compared to 50 years ago, hence more cases, just as an example.

3) You can't possibly know what personal problems the pilots you flew with had or not had. Depression is not something written on your forehead. You mix up personality, intelligence, pilot skills or public appearance with an often disclosed mental illness. Additionally, to state the obvious, a depression can affect anyone. It can also be transient, so even if you would be a mind reader the colleague could have been healthy in your presence and sick before or thereafter

4) Anecdotal experience is no evidence. I would hence as opposed to you never claim that my experience supports a general conclusion. And what "experience" could that possibly be in the first place?

[hans brinker]

Hans, that article is eight years old. I am sure that progress has been made in that time, don’t you?
I'm sure, but they did say never.

[ferry pilot]

I am going to concede rather than give in to the temptation of further argument. The subject itself is dark and unpleasant enough, and no serious discussion can be anything but more so. Worse, there will be no resolution to the debate or the problem. Thanks for the thoughtful and considered
opinion. Intelligent conversation is hard to come by when you get old.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Thank you, ferry pilot. All the best.

[ferry pilot]

Thank you, ferry pilot. All the best.
One more thing before I go There was an article a few years ago on teachable autopilots. They would learn by observing outcomes from a variety of inputs for different problems and recording the most favorable for a given situation. Enough of them, communicating with each other for a few years, would amass volumes of knowledge and experience unobtainable by any one..
I have not found the article or anything more on the subject though it is a while since I looked.
Even if you did not let the thing fly your airplane, having it installed and operating might be like the dog that bites the hand getting out of hand with the controls. Keeping in mind it is not there for you. It’s for the idiot in the other seat.

[Turbinestarter]

I recall the Captain of a BA 747 having to receive a last minute BA clearance by radio confirming his validation to land his aircraft on 27R in minimums at LHR. It did not go well and he did a TOGA over the airport hotels setting off several alarms. He was hung out to dry by BA and not supported by BALPA. Such was the publicity that He was prosecuted in the local court for dangerous flying and fired by BA.
This high time long haul captain, once a respected member of his local community and well know in his local pub, was now unemployed, suffered the humiliation of the negative publicity and was basically hung out to dry with apparently very little or no support by the airline and his union. I believe it was 12 months later that this senior former captain,used to calm decision making and for years entrusted with his aircraft and passengers took his own life on his own in Scotland ,miles from where he lived.
That to me shows that even the best and most competent pilot can succumb to such depths of despair that their mind set turns to ending their life.

Airline management need to be aware of the current unique pressures caused by Covid and be on top of it with a programme of support and perhaps a heightened programme of anonymous reporting by colleagues who see --and hear -- indications of extreme stress and pressures by their colleagues.
did a go

[70 Mustang]

Murder-Suicides by pilots are most certain the cause of undetected major mental illnesses as depression,borderline syndrome or shizophrenia. It has absolutely nothing to do with the job profile or "lifestyle".


pardon my English, but there appears to be a mistake, or words missing in that statement.

I certainly would get depressed rather quickly by a “murder-suicide by pilot” on one of my flights as we came crashing down.

[dr dre]

Not that long ago the career path to a front seat in an airliner was not for the faint of heart. You learned the hard way, through bitter and painful experience, that aviation is a tough and unforgiving business.

But of the 4 probable intentional events since 2013 only one (Germanwings) had a relatively inexperienced pilot as the cause. MH370 - a senior 777 Captain with 33 years flying experience. MU5735 - a veteran former training pilot with 30,000 hours flying experience. LAM 470 9,000 hour E190 Captain. And the notable intentional acts beforehand - MS990 - 12,000hr FO, most senior FO in company and long time pilot. Silk Air 185 - experienced Captain.

[megan]

Not forgetting FedEx 705 DC-10 where a dead heading flight engineer and ex Navy pilot attacked the crew with hammers in an effort to crash the aircraft and allow his family to get an insurance pay out.

[JG1]

"the death toll from intentional acts has grown"

A pilot intentionally crashing an aircraft full of passengers is a similar act to a mass shooting rampage. Its an act of rebellion against the organization.

Remember the United States Postal Service mass shootings which were prevalent in the 80s? Ultimately there were over 25 incidents of Post Office workers coming to work, pulling guns and shooting people. It became so common that with black humour it was termed 'going postal'. That was during Reaganomics where corporations were first starting to 'squeeze all the juice' out of workers. In 1983 the US government stopped subsidising the USPS, and stopped supporting a large number of postal workers rights, opening the USPS up to commercial competition. It was forced to compete with companies like FedEx - 'increasing worker productivity' was a focus, as were pay freezes, cost cutting in all areas and reductions in perks. Workers felt victimised, grievances were so numerous that they took years to process, stress levels were elevated to unprecedented degrees. Overtime was forced, and workers felt under compensated. A congressional investigation documented patters of harassment, intimidation, cruelty and inconsistencies in promotions.

Sound familiar?

Whilst some were indeed nuts, many of the shooters were described by fellow employees as model workers who just snapped. Many fellow workers had sympathy with the shooters, even some who had been shot. "He just shot the wrong people" meaning he should have killed the management. Most workers were disillusioned to a high degree with the company and with their management. I won't expound further here but for those interested in learning more about this, the book "Going Postal" by Mark Ames is a revealing read and explains this phenomenon a lot better than I can.

The rise of the low cost airline has put a similar squeeze on the entire aviation industry where salaries, rights, benefits, perks and Union influence have been eroded in a chase of quantity over quality.

Minimum rest, maximum flight and duty, minimum pay, maximum productivity. Minimum fuel, maximum range, minimum cost, maximum load, minimum pilots, maximum roster. Minimum turnaround time, maximum speed. Minimum training, maximum stress. No recourse, minimum influence. Reporting of mental health problems likely to result in trouble for the reporter. Keep smiling and carry on, if you don't like it, leave.

Personally I'm not surprised at the increase of intentional acts of suicide by pilots designed to hurt their companies and expect the trend to rise.

[txl]

Just a few comments from the sideline re: Bloomberg being a reputable source and the reason why media use phraseology like "people familiar with the investigation".

As a seasoned journalist, I can speak with some authority on that one. Media have their own standard phraseology, just like in aviation with ATC. The "people familiar with ..." or similar should be read as an actual insider, not some armchair expert form this esteemed forum. A journalist worth his salt wouldn't dare to use that code for something he picked up from some random guy from the interwebs. One simple reason: deniability. It's easy to refute, because it's most likely not accurate. And we really hate being proven wrong.

If I should pick up something from this forum and pass it on as "official information" under the guise of "people familiar with", I can be sure of two things: One, it's probably bogus, and two, someone who is actually familiar with the investigation will set his lawyers in motion because of that. Worst case, that will result in stopped printing machines and hundreds of thousands in losses for my publisher. So again, no journalist who takes his or her profession seriously would take that risk.

Bloomberg may go over the top with the occasional headline, but they are one of the few reputable news sources left that still adhere to old-school standards. So is the WSJ. I know or knew people working at both outlets. If they refer to "people familiar with the investigation", I am pretty confident that they actually talked to someone very familiar with the investigation who is not authorized to speak officially (or "on the record", as we call it) about it. My guess would be someone from FAA or Boeing, who is directly involved, but can't speak in an official capacity because it nominally is a Chinese investigation.

That said (and back on topic), what the article is saying is that with aviation becoming safer overall and fatal aircraft accidents rarer, the low number of pilot extended suicides claims a growing percentage of commercial aviation deaths. Wikipedia records about 25 crashes confirmed to have been caused by suicidal pilots during the last 50 years, that's one every two years on average. So this is clearly becoming a more pressing issue for the aviation industry.

And while I support corporations looking after their employees and taking care of mental health issues just as the next guy, you need to draw a line somewhere. Do we need to further de-stigmatize depression and other mental health issues? Sure. I have had colleagues dealing with a variety of issues – depression, anxieties, substance abuse, you name it – who sometimes jeopardized production because of their problems. They got help. In the end, that's just money, nobody got hurt.

But you don't want somebody gripped by depression or bipolar disorder on the pointy end of an aircraft or an operating table. Fighting societal stigma is one thing, but we need to accept that some jobs are not for everybody. Of course you can't prevent everything, but there were a lot of red flags ignored by a lot of people in the Germanwings case. That pilot was put in a cockpit despite having a record of mental health issues. But back in the day, I couldn't become a pilot – because I am too tall.

[artee]

Just a few comments from the sideline re: Bloomberg being a reputable source and the reason why media use phraseology like "people familiar with the investigation".

As a seasoned journalist, I can speak with some authority on that one. Media have their own standard phraseology, just like in aviation with ATC. The "people familiar with ..." or similar should be read as an actual insider, not some armchair expert form this esteemed forum. A journalist worth his salt wouldn't dare to use that code for something he picked up from some random guy from the interwebs. One simple reason: deniability. It's easy to refute, because it's most likely not accurate. And we really hate being proven wrong.

If I should pick up something from this forum and pass it on as "official information" under the guise of "people familiar with", I can be sure of two things: One, it's probably bogus, and two, someone who is actually familiar with the investigation will set his lawyers in motion because of that. Worst case, that will result in stopped printing machines and hundreds of thousands in losses for my publisher. So again, no journalist who takes his or her profession seriously would take that risk.

Bloomberg may go over the top with the occasional headline, but they are one of the few reputable news sources left that still adhere to old-school standards. So is the WSJ. I know or knew people working at both outlets. If they refer to "people familiar with the investigation", I am pretty confident that they actually talked to someone very familiar with the investigation who is not authorized to speak officially (or "on the record", as we call it) about it. My guess would be someone from FAA or Boeing, who is directly involved, but can't speak in an official capacity because it nominally is a Chinese investigation.

That said (and back on topic), what the article is saying is that with aviation becoming safer overall and fatal aircraft accidents rarer, the low number of pilot extended suicides claims a growing percentage of commercial aviation deaths. Wikipedia records about 25 crashes confirmed to have been caused by suicidal pilots during the last 50 years, that's two per year on average. So this is clearly becoming a more pressing issue for the aviation industry.

And while I support corporations looking after their employees and taking care of mental health issues just as the next guy, you need to draw a line somewhere. Do we need to further de-stigmatize depression and other mental health issues? Sure. I have had colleagues dealing with a variety of issues – depression, anxieties, substance abuse, you name it – who sometimes jeopardized production because of their problems. They got help. In the end, that's just money, nobody got hurt.

But you don't want somebody gripped by depression or bipolar disorder on the pointy end of an aircraft or an operating table. Fighting societal stigma is one thing, but we need to accept that some jobs are not for everybody. Of course you can't prevent everything, but there were a lot of red flags ignored by a lot of people in the Germanwings case. That pilot was put in a cockpit despite having a record of mental health issues. But back in the day, I couldn't become a pilot – because I am too tall.

"..Wikipedia records about 25 crashes confirmed to have been caused by suicidal pilots during the last 50 years, that's two per year on average..."

Unless I'm missing something, isn't that 1 per 2 years?

[JustinHeywood]

…Minimum rest, maximum flight and duty, minimum pay, maximum productivity. Minimum fuel, maximum range, minimum cost…

Personally I'm not surprised at the increase of intentional acts of suicide by pilots designed to hurt their companies and expect the trend to rise.

Looking at the two recent probable murder/ suicides in which the circumstances are reasonably well known (Germanwings and MH370, I haven’t seen it suggested that working conditions or a desire to ‘hurt their company’ were in any way a major factor.

[ferry pilot]

But of the 4 probable intentional events since 2013 only one (Germanwings) had a relatively inexperienced pilot as the cause. MH370 - a senior 777 Captain with 33 years flying experience. MU5735 - a veteran former training pilot with 30,000 hours flying experience. LAM 470 9,000 hour E190 Captain. And the notable intentional acts beforehand - MS990 - 12,000hr FO, most senior FO in company and long time pilot. Silk Air 185 - experienced Captain.
No matter how long you have been at it, a job that is not for you is still not for you. They should have been doing something else.

[ATC Watcher]

@ txl : Excellent informative post , alwas nice to hear how other work., even if I do not necessarily agre with your conclusion.

We have no idea if MH370 was a suicide or not , probable, yes but there are dozen of other hypothesies and in any case both pilots did not have any issiues with their manageent . . Silk air was about debts if I recall well, .the morrocan one was a girl friend issue, etc..on Germanwings/Lubitz , I know a bit more that the average and it had nothing to do with his employer or his working conditions , but about the fear of losing his licence and failing in his only goal in life .
Mental illness is a difficult subject to get into..
Also it would seem that taking a gun and shooting people as a form of suicide is more a US thing . In other contries people with a grunge at their management and being mentally ill , generally commit suicide on their worklplace , e.g. lots of police officers do this, or taking theFrance Telecom /Orange example in France , jumping out ow their office window. a bit of additional info here :https://hbr.org/2009/10/why-are-france-telecom-workers in English .

[txl]

"..Wikipedia records about 25 crashes confirmed to have been caused by suicidal pilots during the last 50 years, that's two per year on average..."

Unless I'm missing something, isn't that 1 per 2 years?

Of course :ugh: It was late ...