New RAF Uniforms

[RAFEngO74to09]

As I don't have to wear it and I'm no longer a UK taxpayer, I'll keep my less than complimentary views to myself.

No doubt I will be able to read some amusing comments though over the coming days !

Just appeared on ARRSE and Twiitter having been spotted on Whats App 13 Jun 22:

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[unmanned_droid]

The polo shirt and the rolled up sleeve err... retainer straps are a new low.

[Bob Viking]

A few caveats before I pass judgment.

1. I spend 99.99% of my time at work in a flying suit.
2. This may well be a display of sample uniforms and may not be a final product (I genuinely have no idea).
3. I will have left before any of this hits the streets.

Now my thoughts.

On the whole I quite like the look of it.

I hate our current scratchy trousers and cheap shirts. None of it fits properly and it looks bargain basement.

A lot of the stuff on display (which may or may not end up being the final product) looks a lot more comfortable and practical than the current offering.

I suppose the only fault is that it is new and of course change is always a bad thing. Especially in Pprune world. I mean what would Trenchard say?!

BV

[4everAD]

The only thing that is a good idea is the polo shirt, but the rank slide is in an awful place. Anyone who sits down to work will have a rank slide rubbing on their chin constantly.

[TBM-Legend]

As I don't have to wear it and I'm no longer a UK taxpayer, I'll keep my less than complimentary views to myself.

No doubt I will be able to read some amusing comments though over the coming days !

Just appeared on ARRSE and Twiitter having been spotted on Whats App 13 Jun 22:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/768x1024/image_11191e2ee63a5ea425a8d2634797c223c06742ec.png
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Looks like something the French would wear....

[Bob Viking]

Looks like something the French would wear....

Is that meant as a negative? Sartorially speaking I’d rather look French than follow current British trends.

BV

[Toadstool]

1. I spend 99.99% of my time at work in a flying suit.
2. This may well be a display of sample uniforms and may not be a final product (I genuinely have no idea).
3. I will have left before any of this hits the streets.

Now my thoughts.

On the whole I quite like the look of it.

I hate our current scratchy trousers and cheap shirts. None of it fits properly and it looks bargain basement.

A lot of the stuff on display (which may or may not end up being the final product) looks a lot more comfortable and practical than the current offering.

I suppose the only fault is that it is new and of course change is always a bad thing. Especially in Pprune world. I mean what would Trenchard say?!

BV

Exactly the same feelings BV. I think this offering is slightly better than the last. I wasn’t looking forward to wearing skintight Lycra, not at my age! Thank god for flying suits.
I’m standing by for the usual suspects who will no doubt be apoplectic with rage.

[Just This Once...]

Some of it looks awful, with questionable contrasting colour details (reminiscent of the 'prison inmate' collection) but there are options within that bunch that are both ok to look at and have genuine practicality.

[Sideshow Bob]

....I wasn’t looking forward to wearing skintight Lycra, not at my age! Thank god for flying suits...
There are some whose flying suits apear to resemble Lycra!!

I quite like some of the options, definately more practical. The uniform I was wearing by the time I left in the 2010s was completely different from the one I was given when I joined in '86; in those days we had No2 Thunderbird Jackets, trousers with a flare and big collars, all a hangover from the 70s, early 80s. Uniform change all the time albeit in a more subtle manner.

[Stitchbitch]

Good start with some usable kit there, but why are they still pushing out the wedgewood blue shirt? I realize blunties have to wear something but times have changed.. ;)

[Krystal n chips]

Exactly the same feelings BV. I think this offering is slightly better than the last. I wasn’t looking forward to wearing skintight Lycra, not at my age! Thank god for flying suits.
I’m standing by for the usual suspects who will no doubt be apoplectic with rage.

Ah yes, the purists and pedants . A consistent demographic throughout time so your prophecy will be fulfilled.

They were shocked to the core when the infamous hairy battledress was, finally, declared obsolete...then came the "woolly pulley " saga... that dragged on for some time actually...and, for engineers, the introduction of R.N non slip safety shoes...first, they didn't polish up very well, and, second , there were no toe caps !!..both these of no consequence issues attracted their full wrath and indignation...blissfully ignoring the fact they were actually very safe and practical.

The stable belt ?..nope. We had a Sgt on the M.U who appeared one day wearing one, and, a chip hat. Given the M.U dress code differed from the rest of the RAF, it was no surprise to rapidly learn he was, well, "different " to the rest of us.

To be honest, it doesn't look that bad, also seems to have the advantage of not requiring the attention of something called an iron...my own encounters with this item were minimal you understand

All we need now is a contemporary version of the infamous S.A.C Bloggs haircut poster !

Popcorn time !

[NutLoose]

Question is have they made it all washable and not dry clean only. Those shirt loops look positively dangerous, working on machinery they could easily get caught in rotating items etc or even catch on things, plus they do not appear fit for purpose, will they not rub when sleeves are down?

[Wensleydale]

One wonders how long it will take for a spoof branch of service to arrive under the rank tab..."RAF Drinking Tea" perhaps?

[Cornish Jack]

Having started with 'Hatry blues', hobnail boots, collar detached shirts and collar studs, braces and berets, there were a number of changes during my time. The introduction of the aircrew shirt was, initially, a huge success. They were made by Van Heusen and excellent quality. However, M o D decided to save money by contracting them out to Faulats of Belfast (the effect was so remarkable as to imprint the details !) Their major money saving ploy was to use "the incredible shrinking material" -such rubbish that even the shrinking quality differed throughout the garment ... sleeves came out of the wash in different lengths.!. One of my replacement shirts was made from two noticeably different materials, joined centrally !
I can only offer wishes of good luck to future wearers !

[flyingorthopod]

It has potential. Will be interesting to see in the flesh.

No sign of a hat though. Hopefully not introducing baseball caps. Personally I would abolish routine hat wearing.

[DuncanDoenitz]

Difficult to comment without knowing the context of the demo, (which looks kind of half-@rsed), but:

Trousers look practical.

Is a tie part of the range? If not, what's the point of the wedgewood long-sleeve, collared, shirt? What about a tangle-free bow-tie. Or a cravat might work.

Why the positive/negative contrasted long-sleeved shirts? (or are they jackets)? Do we get a choice? (Dark with pale front, or vice-versa).

Same as everyone on the rolled-up-sleeve-retainers.

Why complicate the rank-tabs with a trade specialisation? Won't this just complicate the logistics if Stores have to carry every rank in every specialisation? (Worst job I ever had was working in clothing stores at Spectrum Cloudbase HQ. Captain Scarlet comes in wanting a replacement cap. "Sorry Captain, I've got scarlet caps in every size except six-and-seven-eighths. But I do have your size in green, blue, white, taupe ......).

[NutLoose]

The other question is why a stable belt, uncomfortable in hot weather and restrictive, just what you need on a working dress, a great big buckle to scratch everything in sight when working in confined areas. and as for the dark blue collar, they are already on the coveralls, so why put them on the shirt?

And again on the working dress, rank slide on the front and fwd sticking out tabs on the cuffs that could get caught in rotating machinery, leaning over a lathe etc.
Slide ranks on the shoulders can be seen from every direction, on the front and one arm, from two.

It would make sense for one of the arm pockets to have a window in it for carrying your ID / Airside pass when working airside.

..

[Davef68]

Need to see them on 'real' people to get an idea of what they will look like in day to day wear, but first impressions are 'better than the Thunderbirds renders shown recently'.

I suspect these are proof of concept pieces, so hopefully things like the dangly sleeve retainers and the rank slide on the polo shirt (have it on the lowest button) can be sorted out

[cheekychimp]

Personally I would abolish routine hat wearing.
Same here, apart from PPE, I've yet to hear of a good reason for routinely wearing headdress. In No1s fine, otherwise?

[cliver029]

Well having joined in 1960 and put up with old style battle dress and scratchy trousers and the various iterations of the T63 with stay bright buttons, (still got my button stick) +chip bag hat. The new style looks fine by me

[RotorsTurningRefuel]

Ok, this is my area sort of. Spent a few years in combat underpants so to speak, some time ago. Without dropping anyone in it, the new uniform was on the cards and work in the background was being done to look at what was needed going forward. Unfortunately back earlier on in the year some info appeared on social media and spread like wildfire. The A4 Commodities were pushed by the SLT to get something out, and as any one looking not to upset the powers to be, this is what they come up with, and the comments brought with it. The latest pictures and examples are a result of that. However there will be a testing phase, to see what is good and what is not and what needs re-designed. This will take years and will not be on the shelves for at least 5 years minimum, then you have contract negotiations, and we all know good the MOD are at those!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Personally the uniform review is long overdue, and what is on display will be not be the item on someones back when it goes live. I will be long left the reserves when this comes on line. This will be used as a recruiting tool for the next generation of personnel, whether that be Halton or Cranwell.

[flyingorthopod]

The other question is why a stable belt, uncomfortable in hot weather and restrictive, just what you need on a working dress, a great big buckle to scratch everything in sight when working in confined areas. and as for the dark blue collar, they are already on the coveralls, so why put them on the shirt?

And again on the working dress, rank slide on the front and fwd sticking out tabs on the cuffs that could get caught in rotating machinery, leaning over a lathe etc.
Slide ranks on the shoulders can be seen from every direction, on the front and one arm, from two.

It would make sense for one of the arm pockets to have a window in it for carrying your ID / Airside pass when working airside.

..

Personally unconvinced by wearing ID visibly. Nobody looks closely once you're in work area so it's easy for a malign character to sneak in, and anyone with a long zoom lens has a straightforward way to pinch data and clone your id.

[m0nkfish]

As I don't have to wear it and I'm no longer a UK taxpayer, I'll keep my less than complimentary views to myself.

No doubt I will be able to read some amusing comments though over the coming days !

Just appeared on ARRSE and Twiitter having been spotted on Whats App 13 Jun 22:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/768x1024/image_11191e2ee63a5ea425a8d2634797c223c06742ec.png
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Looks alright to me! Does come across like a school uniform, but also seems more practical than the existing attire. I wonder if there is a skirt for the ladies or is everyone in trousers these days?

Can't imagine a polo shirt working well with the existing head dress, but maybe its time to retire that concept too!

[NumptyAussie]

....The stable belt ?..nope. We had a Sgt on the M.U who appeared one day wearing one, and, a chip hat. Given the M.U dress code differed from the rest of the RAF, it was no surprise to rapidly learn he was, well, "different " to the rest of us......

Popcorn time !

How was he "different"?

[NutLoose]

How was he "different"?

If you saw the stuff that used to get worn on the line in winter and summer you would understand, multiple forms of scarves and wolley hats, even the odd Russian style fur cap, along with various warm kit underneath and a multitude of glove styles and mitts.

[212man]

The only thing that is a good idea is the polo shirt, but the rank slide is in an awful place. Anyone who sits down to work will have a rank slide rubbing on their chin constantly.
Anyone who wears a polo shirt with all the buttons done up deserves to!

[MPN11]

I accept this is a well-developed but not yet final draft, so on that basis I’ll cut some stylistic slack.

Long-retired, of course, having trod the various winding paths from Hairy Blue through numerous changes of shirts and sweaters, I would just offer up one plea. Or a multiple plea, really. Make the materials ‘easy care’, colour-fast and robust. Some of the outpourings in the past included: the WRAF Mess Dress that was neither dry-cleanable nor washable; the Instant Crumpled No 2 trousers; and the endless vacillation over the design of the Wooly Pully in its numerous manifestations. Clothing technology has progressed enormously since my initial issues, and I just hope that cost-saving doesn’t prevent the fullest implementation for those users in the future. They have better things to do with their time than fight inadequate materials at work and in the laundry.

[NutLoose]

I always thought the MK 1 Wooly Pully with the round neck was Ideal, it was a combat pully ideally suited to in the field, out on the line and under cabbage kit, then the office wallahs got their hands on it and it became the V neck jumper that was none of the above.

I agree with easy care, as I said earlier make it washable and hard wearing, the working blue trousers were like that, I do like the design of the trousers, bar the stable belt and the light blue naff flashes, they remind me of the OG combats trousers. Hopefully they will be made of cotton or some breathable material that will not melt in a fire. Though I do have visions of people walking about with the side pockets rammed full like a Hamster cheeks..

I wonder if my phone will scan the code on the laptop to see what it opens ;)

[Cat Techie]

On the line, overalls and Sqn T shirt (and anything you wish to wear underneath the overalls) has been the normal working dress on the line for donkey years before I left the mob (and that was almost a decade and a half ago!). Things getting trapped in lathes? Last SWS guys made civvy donkeys ago. More pockets to put hands in! That will upset the SWOs. Airside ID? Mod 90 to be on the entire site. What is a Mod 90 some will say?? ;)

[NutLoose]

I was using the lathe as an example but you well know what I mean. And yes ID card but these days operating away from base passes makes sense too.

.

[BEagle]

Well at least the blue suede shoes proposal of the early '80s was never progressed!

What? No 'Sweater Cashmere with moleskin facings' to replace Officers Mess Kit? What a brilliant spoof that was all those years ago!!

[chopper2004]

The polo shirt and the rolled up sleeve err... retainer straps are a new low.

How about a new style of leather aircrew jacket from aviation leathercraft??

cheers

[MG]

Some good stuff here, it’ll be interesting to see how it develops. (Please lose those silly dark blue arm straps!).

But no showing of outerwear. What’s on offer? I’d like to see a fleece and Goretex-type combination. Have rank on both so they can be worn separately, if needed.

[2Planks]

The BMI of those tailors dummies doesn't seem to represent the demographic when I left 10 years ago. Have we all been on a diet?

[ShyTorque]

Looks like it was designed by a blind man on a galloping horse.

[Rigga]

Interesting!
Will the growbags be labelled to state what they are too? Will ‘staff’ have to search around for the right label to ask a question (and only to be told “Not me Chief, I’m waiting for a bowser)

[NutLoose]

The lighter blue trousers on the female dummy with the light blue shirt on appears to be made up of three sections of material sown horizontally in each leg, you would have a problem trying to iron a crease in them.

[cheekychimp]

The lighter blue trousers on the female dummy with the light blue shirt on appears to be made up of three sections of material sown horizontally in each leg, you would have a problem trying to iron a crease in them.
Good, hopefully this is all non-iron crease free material, shining shoes can be left in the last century as well. I was once a drill instructor at Cranwell and know all too well how much time is wasted on this nonsense.

[DuncanDoenitz]

Creases? Like, get with it daddy-o. They are soooo 20th century.

My legs don't have creases, and they bend in 2 places, so it's nice if my trousers do also.

[Melchett01]

My eyes! My eyes! WTAF have I just seen? It’s an utter abomination. If Wiggy wants the RAF to be a laughing stock then go ahead, make us all look like a cheap cross between Thunderbirds and a Kwik Fit fitter.

If, however, he wants us to retain any semblance of credibility then cut out all this nonsense, give us decent uniforms that don’t fall apart after 5 minutes and get on with killing people and breaking their toys. Or is that not what we’re here for these days.

I’m ashamed we’re even thinking of it. Then again, we said we wanted new uniforms. Maybe it’s our own fault. Then again no, we said we wanted decent uniforms. Then again we complained about food charges and look what happened …

[Roland Pulfrew]

Is that meant as a negative? Sartorially speaking I’d rather look French than follow current British trends.

BV

As I currently work with the French Air and Space Force, I think I am qualified to say that their uniform is no different from our current No 2 uniform, but with different colours and better fit.

[Roland Pulfrew]

A few caveats before I pass judgment.

1. I spend 99.99% of my time at work in a flying suit.

I hate our current scratchy trousers and cheap shirts. None of it fits properly and it looks bargain basement.

BV

As you spend 99.9% of your time in flying kit, I am guessing that you also haven’t bought any blues in a long time. The newer (issue) kit is better than it used to be. Decent quality blues have always been available, you just have to pay for it.

[Bob Viking]

In 23 years I have never paid for any blue uniform (apart from a new hat). I’ve also not had anything since my initial issue (which still fits) and the updated bits as they have been released.

Aside from Number 1s and 5s I probably haven’t worn blues for over ten years. And I haven’t worn either of those at all for at least five.

BV

[Roland Pulfrew]

In 23 years I have never paid for any blue uniform (apart from a new hat). I’ve also not had anything since my initial issue (which still fits) and the updated bits as they have been released.

Aside from Number 1s and 5s I probably haven’t worn blues for over ten years. And I haven’t worn either of those at all for at least five.

BV
So you are complaining about kit issued 23 years ago and you’ve never needed (or bothered) to buy any better quality uniform?

[Bob Viking]

Why would anyone in their right mind pay to buy uniform that their employer mandates they should wear? If the RAF couldn’t give me blue uniform that fits and is comfortable to wear that’s bad right? I’m not going to pay to get them off the hook.

The images look like a uniform that would probably be more comfortable and accommodating.

None of this changes the fact that I think we should just wear MTP day to day with RAF flashes.

BV

[Sideshow Bob]

....What is a Mod 90 some will say?? ;)

Is that a bit like a 1250 but really poor quality!!

[sycamore]

Bob,for those of us who`ve been out longer than you`ve been `in`,wossa MTP?
I was one once,but things `change`....:)

[NutLoose]

The 1250 credit card format used to self destruct , and the laminated jobby before that used to delaminate, so its obviously up there with the quality standard, what you want is it laser etched into a metal blank.

[NutLoose]

Bob,for those of us who`ve been out longer than you`ve been `in`,wossa MTP?
I was one once,but things `change`....:)

Multi Terrain Pattern as in what was DPM, ie cabbage kit.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Why would anyone in their right mind pay to buy uniform that their employer mandates they should wear? If the RAF couldn’t give me blue uniform that fits and is comfortable to wear that’s bad right? I’m not going to pay to get them off the hook.

The images look like a uniform that would probably be more comfortable and accommodating.

None of this changes the fact that I think we should just wear MTP day to day with RAF flashes.

BV
It’s a fair point BV and I have never understood why RAF officers have to pay for a uniform we are mandated to wear, except for tradition, and the fact that for all of those 23 years you have been receiving a benefit from the tax man to help pay for that uniform. As I said, colleagues I’ve spoken to, who have used the new ordering system, have said that the newer uniform is better quality and fits better.

[unmanned_droid]

I'd agree with MTP with RAF flash for day to day work. My other thought was a lighter variant of the new RN working uniform. There will be cost and time savings with either of those options, and people may actually want to wear them, rather than the mess in the images on this thread.

If someone thinks that these uniforms will be used as a recruiting tool, I feel they are seriously misguided.

[622]

...With all the Gender neutralising going on....is all this kit 'Unisex' .....?

Seems like a lot of potential for mixing tops / bottoms there - it looks a nightmare to me to keep that lot controlled and people 'uniformally' dressed ......WO's will have a field day! :E

[NutLoose]

I would imagine they are test samples of the short listed designs to see which looks better in the physical form etc and what changes they need to implement.
Then a shorter list will be forthcoming as they address the issues the previous versions brought up, until a final design is selected and then binned due to financial constraints.

[MPN11]

None of this changes the fact that I think we should just wear MTP day to day with RAF flashes.
BV
And on that point, BV, I totally agree. A fighting Service dressed like RAC Patrolmen (as a Recruiting mate observed) hardly engenders the right mental attitudes. But then I have pontificated on this topic before.

[NutLoose]

Agreed, plus you can hide easier from the SWO

[Bluntnotsharp]

Tax allowance.

[langleybaston]

...With all the Gender neutralising going on....is all this kit 'Unisex' .....?

Seems like a lot of potential for mixing tops / bottoms there - it looks a nightmare to me to keep that lot controlled and people 'uniformally' dressed ......WO's will have a field day! :E

Problem if unisex [multisex actually]: too loose in the chest for blokes, too tight in the crutch. No Ball Room as it were.

[Timelord]

What a palava. How about : overalls / flying suits ( plus cold weather additions) , MTP, Number 1s. Simples.

[Sue Vêtements]

So is "full webbing" no longer part of the uniform?

. . . like it apparently was during the Battle of Britain

[Corporal Clott]

Nailed it!

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/506x902/c38ce647_7f33_4f23_89e1_ee3331e1835a_89f7ac7f3741a17be193dba 3288e08c06963f277.jpeg

[Roland Pulfrew]

And on that point, BV, I totally agree. A fighting Service dressed like RAC Patrolmen (as a Recruiting mate observed) hardly engenders the right mental attitudes. But then I have pontificated on this topic before.

As the RAC patrol people have been wearing dayglo orange outfits with those fluorescent strips for years, possibly decades, I think it’s time this urban legend was consigned to the history books (or the dustbin). It may have been true of the 70s, possibly even the 80s, but it’s been a while since we wore the same/similar uniforms.

[NutLoose]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/956x1200/image_ce5fe3c22cc7ec97dedf2f9a2dd661f5432d3f56.jpeg

much smarter looking..
;)

[FantomZorbin]

But what about the the flying badges 'wings' etc, will they be sewn on, applied with Velcro or embroidered?

[NutLoose]

They will be replaced by the wording Pilot on the rank slides, as per the ones seen here... :E

[Minnie Burner]

Why would anyone in their right mind pay to buy uniform that their employer mandates they should wear? If the RAF couldn’t give me blue uniform that fits and is comfortable to wear that’s bad right? I’m not going to pay to get them off the hook.

The images look like a uniform that would probably be more comfortable and accommodating.

None of this changes the fact that I think we should just wear MTP day to day with RAF flashes.

BV
Most sensible thing you've ever said.

[Mogwi]

https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/288668724_10159270948175353_6389774176615032033_n.jpg?_nc_ca t=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=ER0bo4U_gjsAX9WZPtf&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&oh=00_AT98hT4KHD_xbqm2j_fg9LnOjNOuZiUM3bboBdL6oYP01A&oe=62B0C9EF

Hat does look a little bit too small. 😊

[Il Duce]

For the day the new uniforms are launched, I'd be grateful if Right Said Fred would re-record "I'm Too Sexy" with these lyrics:

I'm too sexy for Typhoons,
Too Sexy for Typhoons,
Prancing round in pantaloons.

And I'm too sexy for your squadron,
Too sexy for your squadron,
Got my satin stable belt on.

Aviator, you know what I mean,
And I do my little turn on the taxiway,
Yeah on the taxiway,
I shake my massive tush on the taxiway.

I'm too sexy for my smock,
Too sexy for smock,
D'you think I look like Mr Spock?

And I'm too sexy for parades,
Too sexy for parades,
Sweety, do these come in other shades?

Aviator, you know what I mean,
And I do my little turn on the taxiway,
On the taxiway,
Yeah I shake my massive tush on the taxiway.
​​​​​​
(Repeat chorus and fade until howls of derision subside)

[sycamore]

I wonder what she got the medals for...?

[oldmansquipper]

For the day the new uniforms are launched, I'd be grateful if Right Said Fred would re-record "I'm Too Sexy" with these lyrics:

I'm too sexy for Typhoons,
Too Sexy for Typhoons,
Prancing round in pantaloons.

And I'm too sexy for your squadron,
Too sexy for your squadron,
Got my satin stable belt on.

Aviator, you know what I mean,
And I do my little turn on the taxiway,
Yeah on the taxiway,
I shake my massive tush on the taxiway.

I'm too sexy for my smock,
Too sexy for smock,
D'you think I look like Mr Spock?

And I'm too sexy for parades,
Too sexy for parades,
Sweety, do these come in other shades?

Aviator, you know what I mean,
And I do my little turn on the taxiway,
On the taxiway,
Yeah I shake my massive tush on the taxiway.
​​​​​​
(Repeat chorus and fade until howls of derision subside)


Fantastic rewrite, old chap! Thank you.

New uniforms? Inclusive and clearly ‘wiggy woke compliant’. 😉 glad to see we still have enough in the defence budget to even consider them.

During my time in the corridors of power (Soooo last century, I admit) even the use of the word ‘Uniform’ always caused great hilarity. The variations out there even then, were legion.



https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/526x526/578dd36d_b645_4255_b17d_a4175a9d9db8_96ed2ef785ba69b4043ddf3 51cf3057271868e43.jpeg

[NutLoose]

I wonder what she got the medals for...?

Nightfighter ops with a few low level missions... I think she was also on Operation Chastise and well and truly got the dam busted......

[sycamore]

Bust is certainly dammed..

[BEagle]

That reminds me of what I'd stumbled across in the 56(F) squadron mini-museum at the back of the briefing room at pre-pongo Wattisham. A WRAF Officer's No.1 best blue....plus a full set of black frilly underwear! On asking about this, I was told that a previous squadron mate had donated an inflatable 'love doll' for those lonely moments on detachments! But they used to smuggle it on board a VC10 or Herc, inflate it and dress it, then confuse the ALMs doing the head count.

At least, that's the gen I was given.

[teeteringhead]

For BEagle's sake, can someone find a picture of Section Officer Maggie Harvey WAAF?

[NutLoose]

That reminds me of what I'd stumbled across in the 56(F) squadron mini-museum at the back of the briefing room at pre-pongo Wattisham. A WRAF Officer's No.1 best blue....plus a full set of black frilly underwear! On asking about this, I was told that a previous squadron mate had donated an inflatable 'love doll' for those lonely moments on detachments! But they used to smuggle it on board a VC10 or Herc, inflate it and dress it, then confuse the ALMs doing the head count.

At least, that's the gen I was given.

A chap at RAF Halton drove around the station on the weekend on his motorbike with a blow up doll on the back in a skin coloured bikini, the RAF and MOD Rossers set off in pursuit, unfortunately for them he led a merry dance and they were unable to catch him for many hours.... When they finally did and were about to arrest him, he asked what was the offence... they looked back and forth at each other, they then realised he had not actually done anything wrong, so had to let him go.

When I was but a boy my best friend had his 18th and his parents hired a hall, we got him a blow up doll like you do, and had it inflated with helium, it was put in a long weighted box, wrapped to perfection and put with the other gifts, come gift opening time the box was ripped open and she ascended into the heavens, ok up, to the double height ceiling, there to look down on his mortified parents and red faced son.. She spent the evening watching the festivities and one assumes the cleaners in the morning had a surprise.

Ahh such fun from long gone times, and I hope Andrew is looking down on me now and laughing about it, having been taken far to early.

Sorry for the thread drift, Beag's post just brought it all back.

[langleybaston]

For BEagle's sake, can someone find a picture of Section Officer Maggie Harvey WAAF?

Surely he doesn't need it? Like the rest of us, he can just project the picture on the wall ......... here goes .........

AAAaaaahhhh

[Phil_R]

I once worked on a TV pilot (as in test episode, not person who operate aircraft) which involved one of our prettier, younger actresses playing an RAF Flight Lieutenant.

She emerged from the costume trailer in number one service dress, hair bunned, tie knotted, slipping the jacket on, with a pronounced scowl and the words:

"I look like a little schoolboy."

And, yes. She did.

[Wensleydale]

I preferred the old uniform.......

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x736/waaf_28fc221fae684f80444bdd29471e12dfb8134bec.jpg

[NutLoose]

Those will play havoc with the wooden flooring.

It does however bring a new meaning to the phrase "I never rose above Flight Lieutenant"


..

[Phil_R]

Yup, basically that outfit. Only she actually wore the skirt...

My observation is that there is no way for any woman to wear that hat without looking like she's about to give someone a good hiding, whether that person wants it or not. Our actress refused to wear it.

[OldFairy HeHimTiger]

The only thing that is a good idea is the polo shirt, but the rank slide is in an awful place. Anyone who sits down to work will have a rank slide rubbing on their chin constantly.
Depends how many chins you have.

[OldFairy HeHimTiger]

Creases? Like, get with it daddy-o. They are soooo 20th century.

My legs don't have creases, and they bend in 2 places, so it's nice if my trousers do also.
Ironing creases was introduced in napoleonic times to kill lice. This was replaced by crab-fat, so infact creases are soon 19th century!

[NutLoose]

They should also introduce patent leather shoes and bin the bulling of shoes.

[cheekychimp]

They should also introduce patent leather shoes and bin the bulling of shoes.
and the wearing of hats, serves no purpose unless part of PPE. I'd go further, but the "in my day" brigade may have multiple seizures.

[NutLoose]

I would also issue a two tone uniform, say black trousers and normal colour ( No1 or whatever number it is these days ) jackets, so that way you can change half of the uniform without having to bin it all.

[Corporal Clott]

and the wearing of hats, serves no purpose unless part of PPE. I'd go further, but the "in my day" brigade may have multiple seizures.

The hat is required to wear a badge with the Sovereign’s Crown (in our case Her Majesty The Queen). When serving personnel salute an officer, they are acknowledging Her Majesty the Queen as Head of State and saluting the rank the officer holds (the Queen's commission) rather than the individual themselves. When an officer returns a salute, it is done so on behalf of the Queen.

So it most definitely serves a purpose unless you want that badge tattooed on your forehead or pinned on it - which might be a bit messy or painful…:}

[langleybaston]

They should also introduce patent leather shoes and bin the bulling of shoes.

I say old thing!
How am I to pass my Sunday late morning, sniffing the roast, drinking a pint, sharpening the kitchen knives and bulling all the shoes?

[MPN11]

Thank you, Cpl Clott! Glad someone remembers what it’s all about.

[downsizer]

and the wearing of hats, serves no purpose unless part of PPE. I'd go further, but the "in my day" brigade may have multiple seizures.

Agreed, pointless wearing a hat these days, that can get in the bin.

The comments in this thread make me laugh as well.....
https://twitter.com/StnCdrHonington/status/1551482549452640256?s=20&t=IO-NNyxMQIn3cxhwYmnOKA

[melmothtw]

The hat is required to wear a badge with the Sovereign’s Crown (in our case Her Majesty The Queen). When serving personnel salute an officer, they are acknowledging Her Majesty the Queen as Head of State and saluting the rank the officer holds (the Queen's commission) rather than the individual themselves. When an officer returns a salute, it is done so on behalf of the Queen.

So it most definitely serves a purpose unless you want that badge tattooed on your forehead or pinned on it - which might be a bit messy or painful…:}

Your explanation just shows it serves no purpose, other than one you've imagined for it.

[cheekychimp]

The hat is required to wear a badge with the Sovereign’s Crown (in our case Her Majesty The Queen). When serving personnel salute an officer, they are acknowledging Her Majesty the Queen as Head of State and saluting the rank the officer holds (the Queen's commission) rather than the individual themselves. When an officer returns a salute, it is done so on behalf of the Queen.

So it most definitely serves a purpose unless you want that badge tattooed on your forehead or pinned on it - which might be a bit messy or painful…:}
I know all that, I used to be a DI on IOT. A simple "Good morning Sir/Ma'am" serves the same purpose, acknowledges the commission and is courteous without being over the top. If we had been formed as an entirely new service from scratch, not from the RN and Army, there'd be none of this nonsense. We just inherited a load of their traditions, I still fail to see how performing 18th century battle drills in front of CHOM is relevant or traditional to a modern Air force.

[MPN11]

OK, let’s stop all Parades, and marching, and just wander around like civvies … while being polite to the tracksuit wearing managers. Would save a lot of time and effort … and shoe cleaning. I wonder where that would end up?

[downsizer]

OK, let’s stop all Parades, and marching, and just wander around like civvies … while being polite to the tracksuit wearing managers. Woukd save a lot of time and effort. I wonder where that would end up?

Old timers would explode, currently serving would probably keep on with the job as they do now?

People might stay in rather than leave to be treated like an adult?

[NutLoose]

One the link about SHQ Honington, isn’t this just superb.

https://twitter.com/StnCdrHonington/status/1550759887017222145?cxt=HHwWgoCx2dT5s4UrAAAA

[MPN11]

Old timers would explode, currently serving would probably keep on with the job as they do now?

People might stay in rather than leave to be treated like an adult?
So civilianise everything that Service life is about? Hmm, a lot of that has happened already. I just wonder how warfighting discipline would stand up in that environment?

Anyway, not my war. Back to my armchair and brandy. Enjoy the future.

[cheekychimp]

OK, let’s stop all Parades, and marching, and just wander around like civvies … while being polite to the tracksuit wearing managers. Would save a lot of time and effort … and shoe cleaning. I wonder where that would end up?
When was the last time you saw anyone marching round camp? It's not "Get some in" everyone just walks round like normal people. As for parades, why do we have to do it the Army way? Someone will be along in a minute saying drill is the foundation of discipline, it's not, doing what you're told is.

[NutLoose]

I know all that, I used to be a DI on IOT. A simple "Good morning Sir/Ma'am" serves the same purpose, acknowledges the commission and is courteous without being over the top. If we had been formed as an entirely new service from scratch, not from the RN and Army, there'd be none of this nonsense. We just inherited a load of their traditions, I still fail to see how performing 18th century battle drills in front of CHOM is relevant or traditional to a modern Air force.

You could of course also simply add the badge to the uniform and bin the hat.

[WB627]

I preferred the old uniform.......

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x736/waaf_28fc221fae684f80444bdd29471e12dfb8134bec.jpg

She could definitely give Section Office Harvey a run for her money ;)

[Timelord]

Interesting article in The Times this evening about how a new Chief Constable has turned round the failing Greater Manchester Police by a “ back to basics” approach including smarter uniforms, reinstating a badge all can take pride in and an emphasis on standards of dress and appearance. Apparently it has resulted in better morale, more convictions, less crime and greater public support. Who knew!

[Less Hair]

It is a basic error to mix up fashion and uniforms. Fashion uniforms don't age well. Uniforms are non-fashion, they must fit to everybody, the small the fat, the non-models. Uniforms can still be made elegant, made to impress, made from good materials that are best for daily use, not from cheapo stinking plastic, and made to last.
Mostly cheap stuff is used and this gets hidden behind fancy fashion. Where I live all the mail people are dressed like olympic sprinters from Florida instead of something comfortable to work in all weather day in day out.
And who mounts flags like this?

[flyingorthopod]

I know all that, I used to be a DI on IOT. A simple "Good morning Sir/Ma'am" serves the same purpose, acknowledges the commission and is courteous without being over the top. If we had been formed as an entirely new service from scratch, not from the RN and Army, there'd be none of this nonsense. We just inherited a load of their traditions, I still fail to see how performing 18th century battle drills in front of CHOM is relevant or traditional to a modern Air force.

Routine wearing of hats and saluting should be binned.

I do think the principles of drill and saluting should be kept for ceremonial purposes as I view that as part of our identity and unique character but there's no need for them to be part of everyday life for the principles to remain part of our culture.

[melmothtw]

It is a basic error to mix up fashion and uniforms.

Except that all uniforms are modelled on the fashion of their day. The basic RAF uniform dates back to the fashion of the 1920s, with some alterations and modifications over the years as fashions changed.

[langleybaston]

Except that all uniforms are modelled on the fashion of their day. The basic RAF uniform dates back to the fashion of the 1920s, with some alterations and modifications over the years as fashions changed.

Not the whole truth.

During both World Wars [to date] it is clear that women's fashion [at least] followed military trends. The osmosis works in both directions, seemingly.

[chopper2004]

My favorite subject and I wonder if Air Command might ask Aviation Leathercraft to design a new style of leather aircrew jacket lol

cheers

[MPN11]

My favorite subject and I wonder if Air Command might ask Aviation Leathercraft to design a new style of leather aircrew jacket lol

cheersOr perhaps a universal optional purchase for all Officers? Nah, the Sky-Gods would never accept that! :cool:

[BEagle]

Oh do sharpen up...

RAF Uniform Policy changed on 10 May 2010. As part of these changes, the wearing of a privately purchased leather flying jacket with No 2 Dress, in lieu of the current General Purpose Jacket, was authorised. Previously this jacket was only authorised for aircrew. This authorisation has now been extended to all RAF Officers, Warrant Officers and Senior Non-Commissioned Officers.

[MPN11]

Sorry, Beags … after my time! I rather lost interest in RAF dress regs in 1993!

[Bob Viking]

Sometimes us pilots feel that maybe we just imagine that the ‘blunties’ don’t like us. I’m glad you’re here to remind us that even senior ‘blunties’ really do/did hold a deep seated jealousy or loathing of us.

As for the Leathercraft jacket you’re welcome to it. I always hated the design and certainly wouldn’t pay out of my own pocket to wear one. Even if I’d realised how much it could have wound up those with a chip on their shoulder.

BV

[NutLoose]

I thought you were looking at your demob suit Bob. :)

[Bob Viking]

Already wearing it!

BV

[MPN11]

Sometimes us pilots feel that maybe we just imagine that the ‘blunties’ don’t like us. I’m glad you’re here to remind us that even senior ‘blunties’ really do/did hold a deep seated jealousy or loathing of us.
Oh, deep admiration I assure you. I never progressed beyond PPL, and failed Mil flying training at a very early stage. And as an RAF ATCO, I wouldn't have had a job without you! :ok:

I just prefer wearing Leather to Plastic or Polyester.

[NutLoose]

I just prefer wearing Leather to Plastic or Polyester.

And so sensible that is, it gives you some protection against fire, unlike Polyester or Plastic.
This was brought home to me many years ago when I watched a VC10 mass slide evacuation test for some requirement or the other, one of the young Waafs involved was wearing some type of underwear which must have had a high man made material content or the like, and her knickers literally melted and welded themselves to the poor girls posterior as she went down the slide, I don't know what was worse for her, the "carpet burns" she endured, the pain, or the bunch of interested young airman standing around watching the medic at work on her bottom...

I also knew some poor b*stard who was refuelling his car and had a flash fire, he was wearing a teeshirt and the burns he got were quite bad. To this day I always slip a cotton jacket on in the petrol station and accept the funny looks I get, even if it is up in the high thirties C.
At least I know when the temps are high and the risk greatest, I have done something to protect myself from the chances of a flash fire.

[Krystal n chips]

Sorry, Beags … after my time! I rather lost interest in RAF dress regs in 1993!

Some of us were happily oblivious to them from the moment we left Halton...

[Haraka]

I remember seeing the "Bum Freezer " black leather jackets coming in to unofficial RAF usage well over 30 years ago , A ground officer from a superb Recce Squadron ( :) ) turned up at one session I was at wearing the same. Grins all round of course, but underneath I felt that this reflected a good Flying/ Ground relationship regarding that Squadron's Officers at that time.

[Wetstart Dryrun]

Let's march...

Saves walking.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Either the RAF Regiment is officially trialling the Crye uniform - as now issued to the Royal Marines - or OC 15 Sqn RAF Regiment is just trying to look "ally".

(2) RAF Regiment on Twitter: "Today 15 Sqn #rafregiment based at @RAF_Marham take over as the Resident Force Protection Squadron of @RAFAkrotiri where they will spend the next 4 months delivering #NextGenFP to the strategically important airbase. https://t.co/naQtGw8q26" / Twitter

[cheekychimp]

Back in May the new Force Commander said he was looking at getting it for us. I'm surprised it's arrived this quickly, probably be the same as the Marines, 10 sets to share between everyone for photo opportunities.

[NutLoose]

Now all he needs is to learn how to put his beret on correctly, badge over the eye isn’t it?, never understood the idea of walking around all camo’d up with a stable belt on either.

The silly thing is these days everyone is wearing the same stuff that you need coloured armbands in the likes of Ukraine to identify what side you are on.

[Slow Biker]

It’s a special Rock Ape beret.

[Toadstool]

Now all he needs is to learn how to put his beret on correctly, badge over the eye isn’t it?, never understood the idea of walking around all camo’d up with a stable belt on either.

The silly thing is these days everyone is wearing the same stuff that you need coloured armbands in the likes of Ukraine to identify what side you are on.

Not sure how long it’s been since you were in, but this is normal rig nowadays on base. Don’t worry, in combat, this changes.

[Sigma 09]

Just put union jacks on USAF kit - it always looks cool. I remember being at Red Flag in '78 being totally embarrassed in my issue growbag when all the yanks looked like Tom Cruise. We've always been the scruffs of NATO!

[Union Jack]

It’s a special Rock Ape beret.
Surely *all* Rock Apes are special?:)

Jack

[1771 DELETE]

We went through this with wooly poolies, ribbed, not ribbed, V neck or round neck, brevet or not. Wast of money but great for me as i got a free jumper every time it changed and never had to buy one.
More seriously though, almost every photo of RAF personnel has them in combats whether they are in the UK, overseas, hostile environment or not, i hardly see the point of a blue uniform any more.

[The Oberon]

We went through this with wooly poolies, ribbed, not ribbed, V neck or round neck, brevet or not. Wast of money but great for me as i got a free jumper every time it changed and never had to buy one.
More seriously though, almost every photo of RAF personnel has them in combats whether they are in the UK, overseas, hostile environment or not, i hardly see the point of a blue uniform any more.

You're forgetting other controversies with the round neck one. Tie or no tie, collar points in or out, it varied from SWO to SWO.

[Timelord]

[QUOTE=Sigma 09;11275934]Just put union jacks on USAF kit - it always looks cool. I remember being at Red Flag in '78 being totally embarrassed in my issue growbag when all the yanks looked like Tom Cruise. We've always been the scruffs of NATO![/QUOTE

I suspect that a poor comparison with Tom Cruise has/had more to do with our bodies/ hair/ teeth and tans than with our overalls.

[Slow Biker]

Surely *all* Rock Apes are special?:)

Jack
Thread drift but: Indeed, I learnt how professional they are when I was co-located with them on HF field deployments.

[Haraka]

Oh yes!!!!
(HF late 70's )

[Lima Juliet]

We went through this with wooly poolies, ribbed, not ribbed, V neck or round neck, brevet or not.

What has a certificate, licence or diploma got to do with it? :confused:


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1143/61bcdcbe_4b77_4a6a_908a_4947d880e264_e3642c4f2d21c628b43ec04 6f206109dc3346738.jpeg

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/835x1206/419b8ef5_1031_4abe_9b38_5ee038c72713_6cae2d34a4246562dc04f11 56cb7f65e5481032f.jpeg

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1264x720/9d6561bd_7081_4169_9746_df096b5ce429_62ff8cec122ce0bbf953ca5 6cdc67519241eff2e.jpeg

[Bing]

It's almost as if the same word can mean different things in different languages...

[PPRuNeUser0211]

It's almost as if the same word can mean different things in different languages...


Well the wings badge in regs is (for pilot's) referred to specifically as the "Pilot's Flying Badge" or "Badge, Qualification, Pilot" in stores speak. Similar naming conventions apply to all "legacy" aircrew badges (Air Gunner, Loadmaster, etc) though the newer "generic Aircrew" single wing RAF badge is referred to as "Badge, Qualification, Brevet", which is, I suspect, a result of modern repurposing of the word Brevet as the use of language has evolved over time.

The good news is, for this particular measuring contest, it means you're both right....!

Badges of the Royal Air Force (stores guide) (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/948551/s_3-5.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjux-CstL75AhVUn4QIHQkTAQkQFnoECBQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2r6DL83XE1nKAVf72Y2tZ3)

[NutLoose]

When you see some of the ideas they are coming out with perhaps they should look at the likes of the Ukrainian military, smart, looks warm and military.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x630/image_2297c5dcde04e387c7f449da762bfa84aeecd30b.jpeg

https://violity.com/109332298-fliska-zsu

[Marly Lite]

I shall carry on my own tradition of making it up as I go. 99% grobag n chiphat anyhow. Used to love wearing my tiger scarf as i knew it annoyed the F out of everyone, especially the army!! 1% No1s on remembrance sunday. Some green stuff for ccs or whatever its called now.
I have a loft full of boots, colour= various.

Was once amused by an airman in stores when i enquired about some short sleeve shirts for an impending staff tour. “Should have been given them on initial issue sir”.
I simply didn’t have the energy to explain no such thing existed on my initial issue.

[Wensleydale]

It's almost as if the same word can mean different things in different languages...

The flying badge signifies that the wearer holds a Brevet. The flying badge is awarded at the same time as the Brevet, so when photographs show wings being pinned on at a "Brevet Presentation", then it is easy to see how the two totally different items became mixed up.

[oldpax]

I joined the RAF in 1958(boy entrant) during training we had a wooly jacket an trews,shirt was detached collar .After training we were issued with battle dress uniform.All the warm winter clothing was issued in september and boots,all used but cleaned.The only thing I would have changed was the shirt to collar attached.Yes we had a smooth knit Vneck pullover and some time a raincoat was issued.
So why the obsession with redesigning everything?
No camo stuff either,whats that all about??

[Tankertrashnav]

It's over 46 years since I drove home and took off my RAF uniform for the last time, so I am somewhat out of date. Quick question - what, if any items of uniform are officers still obliged to purchase, or is it all now stores issue? I seem to recall that my initial uniform allowance was £125 which at 1964 prices was sufficient to buy No I HD, No 2 HD, No 5 HD (mess kit), SD cap, shoes etc. Wouldn't go far now.

I had a chum who was an ensign in the Welsh Guards at around the same time. The system there was that the newly commissioned officer visited the regimental tailor in the company of the adjutant who supervised the fittings. All he had to do was stand there and shut up and act as a human tailor's dummy. He didn't even have to pay - on delivery, the bill (well into four figures even then) was sent to his father!

[MPN11]

TTN … as we were of the same date and place … No. 2 BD was not part of the package, so it was No. 1 HD all the time until you bankrupted yourself replacing it! Fortunately I went to FEAF just in time! I was given one of those V-Force BD jackets, but was told after a week or so to stop wearing it as I was “not entitled .Back to wearing our my No. 1, then … thanks!

BTW, my Initial Allowance went on a car, so I was paying the tailors by instalments for a couple more years! The car was £115!

[downsizer]

Good news is the issue of stable belts to all pers is a priority with the new uniform, WORAF thinks so anyway.... or so rumour mill has it.

That'll keep people in for sure.

[Lima Juliet]

The flying badge signifies that the wearer holds a Brevet. The flying badge is awarded at the same time as the Brevet, so when photographs show wings being pinned on at a "Brevet Presentation", then it is easy to see how the two totally different items became mixed up.

Spot on - as a brevet is a licence, a diploma or in this case a certificate 👍

[NutLoose]

Good news is the issue of stable belts to all pers is a priority with the new uniform, WORAF thinks so anyway.... or so rumour mill has it.

That'll keep people in for sure.

I bought one at Swinditz and wore it twice, bloody uncomfortable thing, they will be bringing back putees next

[Diff Tail Shim]

I bought one at Swinditz and wore it twice, bloody uncomfortable thing, they will be bringing back putees next
Navy still wear Puttes. As seen last Monday.

[langleybaston]

Navy still wear Puttes. As seen last Monday.

Are they not gaiters? Puttees are cloth bandages to be wound round the calf and secured by a tape, surely.

[Corporal Clott]

langleybaston - not gaiters, but anklets.

Anklets. Anklets are supplied in five sizes, and should fit the wearer comfortably around the ankles without any gaps between the straps. The straps are to be outboard and pointing to the rear.

Trousers. To be folded at the ankle and tucked into the anklet and socks (or to be secured over the anklet with an elastic band or garter).

The same as worn by RAF Coppers: https://wyedeanstores.com/products/size-5-men-s-anklets-royal-navy-and-royal-air-force-police

[BEagle]

Back in the 1960s, we wore those wretched things in the school CCF and they were known as 'gaiters'. They had to be blancoed with some greenish gunk and the straps polished with brown Kiwi boot polish, the buckles brasso'd. An utter pain!

[Sideshow Bob]

Spot on - as a brevet is a licence, a diploma or in this case a certificate 👍

Colloquially, the flying badge has become known as a brevet; doesn't mean this grammatically correct, but it is what most call it. A bit like a Police Constable is grammatically correctly called a Police Constable; however, it's not what most people call them.

[beardy]

Colloquially, the flying badge has become known as a brevet; doesn't mean this grammatically correct, but it is what most call it. A bit like a Police Constable is grammatically correctly called a Police Constable; however, it's not what most people call them.
A bit like a synonym; plane for aeroplane or airplane or aircraft. We all know what they mean.
​​​

[langleybaston]

A bit like a synonym; plane for aeroplane or airplane or aircraft. We all know what they mean.
​​​

Jesus worked with plane and lathe, so we are informed.
My father always said "plane" was a big No No [like raff] in his wartime service. Banned, like hands in trouser pockets, and hats in church.

[Union Jack]

Are they not gaiters? Puttees are cloth bandages to be wound round the calf and secured by a tape, surely.
These are the only gaiters, which were worn by officers on ceremonial occasions, such as in guards of honour or when parading the Queen's Colour, and also by gunnery instructors, vide https://www.cetomilitaria.co.uk/ourshop/prod_6400282-Gaiters-RN-Ceremonial-1949.html

Jack

[snapper41]

Jesus worked with plane and lathe, so we are informed.
My father always said "plane" was a big No No [like raff] in his wartime service. Banned, like hands in trouser pockets, and hats in church.

But not beards, sadly

[Toadstool]

But not beards, sadly

Can I ask why?

[tommee_hawk]

There are some whose flying suits apear to resemble Lycra!!

I quite like some of the options, definately more practical. The uniform I was wearing by the time I left in the 2010s was completely different from the one I was given when I joined in '86; in those days we had No2 Thunderbird Jackets, trousers with a flare and big collars, all a hangover from the 70s, early 80s. Uniform change all the time albeit in a more subtle manner.

I joined in 1980 and, although we had Thunderbird jackets, they were less popular than the wooly pully (crew-necked iteration and no flying badges then); trousers were definitely not flared and collars were the same length as they were when I left in 2011. These uniforms (hopefully they're all intended to be worn with trousers) looks like we've re-invented a perfectly functional wheel.

[Sue Vêtements]

A bit like a synonym; plane for aeroplane or airplane or aircraft. We all know what they mean.​​​

<pedantic>

"airplane" is a subset of "aircraft"

</pedantic>

but yes I know what you mean :p



One thing I never understood though was "police officer". Is a constable an officer? or is he (yes or she) other ranks?



As for beards (I see that was 2019) . I thought they were prohibited because you couldn't wear an oxygen mask with one and it was made a one-rule-for-all type of thing (well that and to distinguish themselves from the Senior Service)

[Gordon Brown]

But not beards, sadly

Hands in beards, or beards in church?

[Toadstool]

<pedantic>

"airplane" is a subset of "aircraft"

</pedantic>

but yes I know what you mean :p



One thing I never understood though was "police officer". Is a constable an officer? or is he (yes or she) other ranks?



As for beards (I see that was 2019) . I thought they were prohibited because you couldn't wear an oxygen mask with one and it was made a one-rule-for-all type of thing (well that and to distinguish themselves from the Senior Service)

I can’t have a beard because it interferes with the fit of my oxygen mask. My question about beards is why are people concerned about them. Is there anecdotal evidence that it degrades operational effectiveness? Rhetorical of course because no, of course it doesn’t. In which case, what is the issue?

[Jobza Guddun]

Is there anecdotal evidence that it degrades operational effectiveness? Rhetorical of course because no, of course it doesn’t. In which case, what is the issue?
Neither does having a tattooed face, or growing sideburns way past the bottom of the ears, but we still can't do that!

[Roland Pulfrew]

Neither does having a tattooed face, or growing sideburns way past the bottom of the ears, but we still can't do that!

Thank God. But give it time, I’m sure it’s on the SLT’s very important to do list.

[Toadstool]

Thank God. But give it time, I’m sure it’s on the SLT’s very important to do list.

Put a request in if that’s what you want. Still waiting to see what is wrong with beards.

FWIW, the former CASWO (as it was then) visited my unit and chatted to all of us of my rank. He explained that one of the changes they were looking at was beards. Apparently, in every survey they did of those serving, beards was an issue. We of course said no, and that there were many more important issues to worry about.

Fast forward a few years, beards it is. Of course most of us were change resistant. Now, I couldn’t care. One day we couldn’t have beards, the next we could, and the world kept turning and Ops carried on. Beard or no beard, do your job to the best of your ability, that’s all I care about. I’ll let others sweat the small stuff.

[langleybaston]

put a request in if that’s what you want. Still waiting to see what is wrong with beards.

itchy scratchy and harbour old food and young animals

[Toadstool]

itchy scratchy and harbour old food and young animals

Agreed, even if I could ( oxygen mask dependent) personally I wouldn’t. What others do however, that’s their business. Apparently it’s a win as far as dress policy goes, same as pony tails for ladies. If it keeps people happy and doesn’t impact on operational effectiveness then I don’t care.

In any case, it’s policy. The RAF has moved on.

There are many changes in policy since I joined in 1986 and things are remarkably better. Imagine the RAF in 1986 where we didn’t get rid of women who got pregnant. Imagine the RAF in 1986 where people who were gay weren’t thrown out.

Beards. Whatever.

[oldmansquipper]

Good start with some usable kit there, but why are they still pushing out the wedgewood blue shirt? I realize blunties have to wear something but times have changed.. ;)

SB.

it all looks dreadful. (IMHO) but that’s possibly because of the cheap manikins? (anyone else notice our new PM has more than a passing resemblance to an M&S one?)

But, hey, you know that nothing else matters as long as ‘flying suits’ can still be worn in the bar on Fridays and the pockets can be ritually torn off by fast jet mates…..

😉

[snapper41]

Can I ask why?

Against my better judgement, since I assume we are never going to agree, here’s why. I fully concede that they have no impact on operational effectiveness, but beards simply do not belong in the Royal Air Force - they are the preserve of the Royal Navy. They look particularly scruffy IMHO with an RAF uniform. When Sir Wokeston allowed them, I believe that the argument was for ‘greater diversity and inclusivity’ (but of course), when that simply wasn’t true; they have always been allowed on religious grounds. Then there was the argument that potential recruits would be put off joining if they couldn’t keep their precious beard - well, boo hoo. You either want to join up, or you don’t; the military has rules - if you don’t like it, don’t join. The military has never been a follower of fashion, which is all that beards are - a fashion.

[Ken Scott]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/390x480/dd314f87_e6b0_4ab3_90cb_3b7d4cae5a1b_77f35d5a2d77783908ac55a d8a7da0c68abe55da.jpeg
If it was ok for the King…

[snapper41]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/390x480/dd314f87_e6b0_4ab3_90cb_3b7d4cae5a1b_77f35d5a2d77783908ac55a d8a7da0c68abe55da.jpeg
If it was ok for the King…

Who was going to tell him otherwise?

[Tankertrashnav]

TTN … as we were of the same date and place … No. 2 BD was not part of the package, so it was No. 1 HD all the time until you bankrupted yourself replacing it! Fortunately I went to FEAF just in time! I was given one of those V-Force BD jackets, but was told after a week or so to stop wearing it as I was “not entitled .Back to wearing our my No. 1, then … thanks!

BTW, my Initial Allowance went on a car, so I was paying the tailors by instalments for a couple more years! The car was £115!

I think I was advised get myself a No 2 as I was going into the Regiment and it would be more practical than a No 1 in daily use, I remember a "chopped "pilot turning up to join the Regiment course, and he had acquired one of those V Force BD jackets. He wore it on the first day, but he was sent back to the mess at lunchtime and told to come back correctly dressed after lunch!

Re gaiters/puttees, our course Flight Sergeant instructor was clear on the matter. "They are anklets gentlemen. Bleedin' bishops wear bleedin' gaiters!" We did wear puttees when in combat gear, and most of us bought a pair of Fox's officers' puttees, which were of a smooth fawn material rather than the rough, brown material which the airmen wore.

As I asked before, do officers still buy their own uniforms, or is it all on issue now? I think Moss Bros are still trading,but are Alkit, Gieves, R.E.City etc still around?

[teeteringhead]

My father always said "plane" was a big No No [like raff] in his wartime service. Absolutely!

On day one in the RAF, we were told that two words were never said:

1. Plane - unless referring to a carpentry tool.

and

2. RAFF - unless combined with RIFF- which of course it never was when referring to the Junior Service (in those days......)

[NutLoose]

Are they not gaiters? Puttees are cloth bandages to be wound round the calf and secured by a tape, surely.

Incorrect, Putees were wound around the calf and rapidly used to undo themselves and trail behind you.. :p

[Stitchbitch]

OMS, even worse when the 'zoomies' rip the knee boards off the rotary coveralls..cher ching!

The Abu Dhabi police wear something very similar to the proposed new uniform, wonder if the same company make it?

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/351x594/adp_fa59b6258ed221e2763bd5138e9e8830ac5251f2.jpg

[BEagle]

But, hey, you know that nothing else matters as long as ‘flying suits’ can still be worn in the bar on Fridays and the pockets can be ritually torn off by fast jet mates…..

Some FJ idiots did that to a UAS girl at some pre-airshow event. So they were ordered to source a replacement flying coverall with pockets, name badge etc. plus sort all the SCAF paperwork before they would be allowed to depart after the show.

[Ken Scott]

As I asked before, do officers still buy their own uniforms, or is it all on issue now? I think Moss Bros are still trading,but are Alkit, Gieves, R.E.City etc still around?

Tankertrashnav: all kit is provided through stores on initial issue, including No 1s & 5s, although some of it is of rather dubious quality, especially the SD hat which is a cheap fancy dress item. Replacing any kit is still at your own expense though.

I purchased my first No 1 from Snaiths with my uniform allowance but after a few years on the UAS it was a little tired having been worn as interim mess kit for mess rugby etc. I was forced to purchase an issue set from stores at Cranwell in order to be allowed to graduate from IOT as mine were deemed not fit to be on the parade square with HMQ who was our graduation reviewing officer. They were of good quality though and I still have cause to wear them from time to time over three decades later (they still fit after a small amount of tailored intervention to allow for middle aged expansion…) I can’t vouch for the quality of the issued ones today, although I was entitled to a new set when I joined the VR after retiring from the regular RAF I couldn’t really see the point of adding to my kit mountain. With hindsight it might have added useful extra insulation to the loft given the cost of fuel this winter.

[MPN11]

Do ‘issued’ No. 1 HD also come with the option of red or light blue lining?

[oldmansquipper]

Some FJ idiots did that to a UAS girl at some pre-airshow event. So they were ordered to source a replacement flying coverall with pockets, name badge etc. plus sort all the SCAF paperwork before they would be allowed to depart after the show.
SB

not just at shows. It was quite a ‘thing’ at an airbase somewhere in N.Wales in the 90s. When TinCano studes were detached in there they suffered from the same puerile game….

[charliegolf]

SB

not just at shows. It was quite a ‘thing’ at an airbase somewhere in N.Wales in the 90s. When TinCano studes were detached in there they suffered from the same puerile game….

Did on-one get a cautionary punch in the gob then?

CG

[charliegolf]

Do ‘issued’ No. 1 HD also come with the option of red or light blue lining?

The recently 'gorn' Lex Brown used to sport a No1 jacket cut down to a battledress, complete with scarlet lining. Rather set off his AFC ribbon. What larks, Pip!

CG

[langleybaston]

The recently 'gorn' Lex Brown used to sport a No1 jacket cut down to a battledress, complete with scarlet lining. Rather set off his AFC ribbon. What larks, Pip!

CG

Ah! Scarlet silk linings! A very young-seeming, well spoken, obviously on the upward slope squadron leader sported such to his beautifully-tailored greatcoat at Topcliffe c. 1965.

Best I ever did in such suavity was in a blazer .... lining cost more than the blazer. Which no longer fits, having shrunk from disuse.

[BEagle]

Weather-guesser's uniform was usually an old tweed jacket with elbow patches, shirt with frayed collar, woollen tie, a gaudy waistcoat and baggy trousers - plus old brown brogues....

[langleybaston]

Weather-guesser's uniform was usually an old tweed jacket with elbow patches, shirt with frayed collar, woollen tie, a gaudy waistcoat and baggy trousers - plus old brown brogues....

Correct on most counts for this guesser except footwear: always bulled, whether brown [not in town], or black. Just OCD, a Sunday pre-lunch time filler.
Bondhu boots/ brothel creepers if a rapid retreat seemed advisable.

You forgot the Fairisle pullover, with a hole and ink-stain or two ....... waistcoats were for the bosses.

[Union Jack]

Against my better judgement, since I assume we are never going to agree, here’s why. I fully concede that they have no impact on operational effectiveness, but beards simply do not belong in the Royal Air Force - they are the preserve of the Royal Navy. They look particularly scruffy IMHO with an RAF uniform. When Sir Wokeston allowed them, I believe that the argument was for ‘greater diversity and inclusivity’ (but of course), when that simply wasn’t true; they have always been allowed on religious grounds. Then there was the argument that potential recruits would be put off joining if they couldn’t keep their precious beard - well, boo hoo. You either want to join up, or you don’t; the military has rules - if you don’t like it, don’t join. The military has never been a follower of fashion, which is all that beards are - a fashion.

No plans to follow Virgin Atlantic's latest wheeze, one trusts!:=

Jack

[langleybaston]

No plans to follow Virgin Atlantic's latest wheeze, one trusts!:=

Jack

Nothing, but nothing, would surprise me in the relentless pursuit of RAF wokedom.
2/3 of 4/5 of zero.

[Tankertrashnav]

Correct on most counts for this guesser except footwear: always bulled, whether brown [not in town], or black.


That reminds me of my Welsh Guards chum (referred to in an earlier post ) who, finding himself at a loose end one Friday afternoon, decided to get himself off to Paddington to catch the train down to the West Country for the weekend. Respectably dressed in tweed suit and brown brogues, he had the misfortune to bump into the adjutant while crossing the concourse on his way to his train. He was promptly sent back to barracks, where he spent the weekend as duty officer for the crime of being incorrectly dressed in town on a weekday.

[ORAC]

https://wavellroom.com/2022/07/05/raf-working-dress-improving-identity-quality-and-fit/?utm_content=buffer889ce&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

RAF Working Dress – Improving Identity, Quality and Fit

In February 2022, a 15-page proposal of new ‘ASTRA’ uniforms for the Royal Air Force was leaked onto social media. It quickly became national news and generated hundreds of memes universally ridiculing and mocking the propsals as well as the Service. Uniforms are a hot topic that all service personnel (and the general public!) have an opinion on.

A recent service-wide survey on uniforms had record participation, with over 13,000 personnel providing their views on what they do and don’t like. It is well known that there are long-standing issues over identity, sizing and quality of the current No.2 Working Dress. It is seen as bland, boring and often compared to a bus driver’s or uniform. Similarly, the MTP working dress often means RAF personnel are mistaken for soldiers in the Army.

We should avoid drastic-wholesale changes to our uniform. What is trendy and fashionable today, will not be in 15 year’s time. Through several quick, small, and cheap alterations, we can produce a uniform that provides a high-degree of service identity, builds esprit de corps, and is durable for the requirements of the service.

This article will explore the issues over identity, quality and sizing, before proposing a set of relatively quick changes to overcome them.…

[Lima Juliet]

In an Internal Briefing Note (IBN) just before Christmas it was announced that the No 2 Service Dress would stay for office wear but with significant improvements made to the quality and functionality (like pockets in the skirts for women!). Plus also a RAF Utility Uniform (RAFUU) would be introduced for light non-op duties. For the RAFUU then next year (2023) would be subject to series of Focus Groups with the RAFUU not expected until at least 2025.

As ever, a compromise solution brings in a little common sense :ok:

[downsizer]

https://wavellroom.com/2022/07/05/raf-working-dress-improving-identity-quality-and-fit/?utm_content=buffer889ce&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

RAF Working Dress – Improving Identity, Quality and Fit

In February 2022, a 15-page proposal of new ‘ASTRA’ uniforms for the Royal Air Force was leaked onto social media. It quickly became national news and generated hundreds of memes universally ridiculing and mocking the propsals as well as the Service. Uniforms are a hot topic that all service personnel (and the general public!) have an opinion on.

A recent service-wide survey on uniforms had record participation, with over 13,000 personnel providing their views on what they do and don’t like. It is well known that there are long-standing issues over identity, sizing and quality of the current No.2 Working Dress. It is seen as bland, boring and often compared to a bus driver’s or uniform. Similarly, the MTP working dress often means RAF personnel are mistaken for soldiers in the Army.

We should avoid drastic-wholesale changes to our uniform. What is trendy and fashionable today, will not be in 15 year’s time. Through several quick, small, and cheap alterations, we can produce a uniform that provides a high-degree of service identity, builds esprit de corps, and is durable for the requirements of the service.

This article will explore the issues over identity, quality and sizing, before proposing a set of relatively quick changes to overcome them.…


What is the obsession with fvcking stable belts? Wearing one in blues is an absolute bell weather of a bell end. In fact in MTP as well.

[BATCO]

What is the obsession with fvcking stable belts? .....

The linked site says 'identity'. Works for me. But I fear the lazy media will often mistake RAF for army and occasionally army/RN for RAF. C'est la vie.

Batco

[flyingorthopod]

What is the obsession with fvcking stable belts? Wearing one in blues is an absolute bell weather of a bell end. In fact in MTP as well.

They hold a paunch in somewhat (I'm told)

[downsizer]

I'd rather eat my own **** than wear one. They are for cock knockers.

[Bob Viking]

In 23 years I never owned one. But then (discounting IOT) I probably only spent about ten weeks not wearing a flying suit so had little need for one.

BV

Standing by…

[Big Pistons Forever]

Interesting how the Israeli Defense Forces, probably the most operationally effective fighting force on the planet, has a pretty simple uniform system that only gets changed to improve lethality and survivability....

[Flugzeug A]

Interesting how the Israeli Defense Forces, probably the most operationally effective fighting force on the planet, has a pretty simple uniform system that only gets changed to improve lethality and survivability....

Given always decreasing budgets , why can’t we take a good look at everyone else’s uniforms , find which works best & simply order that kit in our colours?
Would that be too simple or is there a need for it to be uniquely ours?

[Lima Juliet]

Interesting how the Israeli Defense Forces, probably the most operationally effective fighting force on the planet, has a pretty simple uniform system that only gets changed to improve lethality and survivability....

The various Services of the IDF have quite a few actually…

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1117/bfe13837_8bfc_4fef_a684_c445f3cc0108_4c955c04418ecf21655e1ad a685a2d41ade9ab87.jpeg

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1791/24163c3d_5a43_4f70_8376_709d87010f4a_63db74a518d5a3030c23d85 9a9ccd218fc629aa7.png

[falcon900]

One simple question; suppose Amazon were trying to sell them, do you suppose they might be displayed a bit better? Leaving aside the merits, could the display have been any more unappealing and amateur? Just as well the big stuff is all so well under control…..

[Corporal Clott]

Variants of stable belts have been around for years. Prior to the claret, light blue and dark blue ones introduced by the Rock Apes in the 1970s, then the RAF wore their very own blue-grey belt, from the 1937 pattern webbing, over War Service Dress as modelled here by Cpl Marsh in Get Some In:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/400x300/1c9ed028_8411_49c8_83fa_1b77fbddee44_f63e838b68ba16a5704b73a 1555d88b1145ac18d.jpeg
However, at the same time a RAF ceremonial belt in white was issued with a very recognisable buckle in 1937 too:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1900x787/fa483187_e1f0_49e4_90b5_efa3b1d1e75e_32610bf7b865bfb2b167eaa 1444cc4936c43451f.jpeg
The more familiar stable belt with the claret (supposed to be the Army), the thin light blue line (supposed to be the RAF) and the dark blue (supposed to be the RN) was introduced by the RAF Regiment in 1970. The colours, the same used on TRFs and previously in the 1920s on RAF head dress, are now enshrined in the RAF. However, the first stable belts had the side fastening - as per all stable belts designed for horse riding and no bulky buckle to rub on the horse during the mount/dis-mount - it was later that the RAF Regiment developed their own belt buckle. Some of the RAF Regiment Squadrons even had their own colour of stable belt in the early days, but uniformity took over and the familiar Rock Ape belt was rolled out in the mid to late ‘70s. Further the RAF Coppers developed their own belt buckle and originally had a black/red stripe only, but again the claret, light blue and dark blue material was used too. The rest of the RAF were then allowed to wear the side fastened stable belt as the Rock Apes had their own now with their crossed rifle logo.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1859x832/290867c7_59c1_445d_8f95_65c64e22a650_c2d9bbc0c66fe8a9321b70e adf86baf3ad9b5cef.jpeg
In the early 2000s then a new RAF logo’d belt buckle was released too. This mirrored the RAF Regiment and RAF Police buckles.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1869x852/1990e3c4_e473_42cf_956e_52f8da88634b_7626ffa45c3ec306af72b19 f0f1b482806b0400a.jpeg
So, there is quite a bit of history behind the RAF stable belt. I actually quite like it as an RAF artefact and the colours do make us more recognisable to others that we are RAF. Worn with a barrack shirt and PCS trousers with suitable badges then the RAF identity is maintained. The only people I ever hear gripe about them are the ones that gripe about paying for any item of uniform; the same sort of people who won’t buy a Squadron badge or insist on wearing a beret because they won’t fork out for a smarter field service cap. Fairly strange behaviour from folks who are supposed to have pride in their Service and their appearance.

[Lima Juliet]

This is an abstract from Psychological issues in military uniform design:

Military uniforms are standardized, distinctive forms of dress that distinguish soldiers and sailors from civilians. There are many psychological implications of military uniforms, including the importance of style, appearance and color, as well as insignia, decorations, and so on. These contribute to togetherness, orderliness and discipline, and add to the soldiers’ sense of camaraderie, cohesion, and esprit de corps. Some features contribute to formal patriotic displays. Other important human factors relate to practicality, functionality, utility, comfort, and bodily protection, which may affect soldier performance.

There are many reasons why getting uniform right is fairly important, the basics are in this abstract. It’s one more thing that RAF seems to have lost its way with. Our everyday uniforms have become bland and lifeless since the 1970s, the woolly pulley, the rain mac (replaced by the equally awful GPJ) and a distinct lack of any ability to display “insignia, decorations and so on”. The only time I normally get my decorations out are that I’m ordered to do a parade (funeral, jubilee, wedding, etc…) or I’m going for an interview with no tea or biscuits!

[NutLoose]

I can understand the stable belt, as the uniform has probably been designed and approved by those that operate a desk, same as the original Woolley polley designed with a round neck for keeping you warm in the field then bastardised by the shiny tie brigade into an office wear, though it’s days were getting numbered with the we need to stitch our bloody wings on it by the insecure brigade, surprised they never did the same for their shirts and vests, after all, that could have simply been solved by sticking the parrot onto the shoulder rank slides as per the Sgt aircrew.

[mopardave]

This is an abstract from Psychological issues in military uniform design:



There are many reasons why getting uniform right is fairly important, the basics are in this abstract. It’s one more thing that RAF seems to have lost its way with. Our everyday uniforms have become bland and lifeless since the 1970s, the woolly pulley, the rain mac (replaced by the equally awful GPJ) and a distinct lack of any ability to display “insignia, decorations and so on”. The only time I normally get my decorations out are that I’m ordered to do a parade (funeral, jubilee, wedding, etc…) or I’m going for an interview with no tea or biscuits!
Could this be to do with our national psyche....we are rather reserved with regard to things like that. The Americans to name but one nation, are much more flamboyant and love a good medal ribbon display (no criticism intended). We seem to shy away from such "ostentatious" behaviour.........again, no criticism.

[BEagle]

The 'wings on woolly pully' nonsense started as a tongue-in-cheek joke by a Vulcan squadron Flt Cdr in the late '70s. Unfortunately someone took him seriously and we then had to stitch the cloth moth onto the wretched pullover. Wearing flying kit to and from work wasn't allowed back then, so it wasn't easy to escape having to wear the thing unless you wore the awful 'thunderbird jacket' instead!

[Rigga]

That’s a nice white stripe! - to be worn on a camouflaged uniform? Very similar to the very obviously bright Blue Shirt we used to wear (with very shiny shoes) in the 80’s and 90’s - completely countering the use of camouflage….

Of course all this could be ‘solved’ with a decent beret and cap badge….like the current one?

[MG]

That’s a nice white stripe! - to be worn on a camouflaged uniform?
Are you talking about the stable belt? It’s blue, not white. And not likely to be worn in an operational theatre.

[downsizer]

Are you talking about the stable belt? It’s blue, not white. And not likely to be worn in an operational theatre.

Seen it being worn by many a prick in pretty much every operational theatre we've been in over the last 30 years!

[Lima Juliet]

downsizer - a stable belt isn’t an instant combat indicator of “prickness”, rather more someone’s attitude is. The stable belt is a personal expense item and so you don’t have to wear one, you can just go with the nasty nylon green belt (not allowed webbing belts anymore) with your PCS or the cheap blue belt with the brass buckle if you like.

mopardave - the ‘reserved’ thing is a bit of guff really. The RN and the Army have displayed all sorts of things on shirts, jumpers and jackets over the years. The RAF as the junior Service made a fairly strong start on uniforms and then it all went wrong around the 1970s and 1980s. Prior to this the RAF had a ceremonial dress, No 1 and RAF War Service Dress (originally created for Aircrew only in 1939/40, but was so popular it was rolled out to the other Branches and Trades in 1943) - sometimes incorrectly termed Battledress, here it is worn by ACM Tedder:
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x629/361967ca_1d4d_45c7_8d88_82b7c4b10b3e_78c808662cf7728931170e5 4a98bf183348a4a57.jpeg
This was the No 2 Dress until 1975/76 when the “Woolley-Pulley” came along. Prior to this WSD went through a non-hairy variant and then the ‘72 pattern Thunderbird Jacket - all with medal ribbons, flying badges and other qualification badges (MRT, Para, Marksman, FMO, AS, etc…etc…). The dreaded wooley-pulley dispensed with everything in one go, with not even flying badges in the early days, and only a few stalwarts continued to wear the Thunderbird Jacket until the early 1990s when it too was replaced by the General Purpose Jacket (GPJ) - the latter, yet again, sans any medal ribbons, badges or other insignia. Here is the 72 pattern ‘Thunderbird Jacket’:

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/505x649/2a548616_6dd4_4aef_a02e_125752cc4dea_73e0da31ef624676a5e483e 24c6e38c036bfdbf8.jpeg

So really, the bland ness of the RAF uniform is something from the past 30 years or so. The previous 80 years has seen ribbons and badges on a daily basis. Why was that? It was done on the CHEAP, that is why. For Officers, who pay for uniform, they were trying to save a few quid and for the other ranks then the cost of Crown-tailoring with ribbons and badges was saved. So this was nothing more than doing it on the CHEAP and boy are we paying for it now - compared to RAC staff or bus conductors, you can understand why…

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/148x339/73bebacf_6cbb_4e73_af8d_77dcb24d4cc5_fc179ba01f44e9b8a11e84e 6166476951520739e.jpeg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/141x357/1457be5b_3613_4e81_9a3a_48705e20b86b_c41653cad3256e1e5d20974 6e24ae9fe7d02810e.jpeg

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/517x1003/e0e56608_089b_42b0_81c7_928dff5c14c1_a2c7749cb0a4f4f7573cc62 3849b9d1aec1491f6.jpeg
At least with the stable belt there is a little bit of colour that identifies us from afar as being in the Air Forces of the Crown!

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/428x1027/e3a0243b_5aa1_4d6f_99c9_87e4eda00856_b9894d64a4cbf9ed02d1c79 af4ae5e194b67149b.jpeg

[MG]

Seen it being worn by many a prick in pretty much every operational theatre we've been in over the last 30 years!
No, I meant a proper operational theatre, one where you take your own accommodation with you.

[downsizer]

downsizer - a stable belt isn’t an instant combat indicator of “prickness”, rather more someone’s attitude is. The stable belt is a personal expense item and so you don’t have to wear one, you can just go with the nasty nylon green belt (not allowed webbing belts anymore) with your PCS or the cheap blue belt with the brass buckle if you like.



It soon will be mandatory if the WORAF and his clique of exec WOs (:yuk::rolleyes:) have their way for blues, MTP and RAFUU.

This is an important issue to deal with along with why PTIs can't wear their PTI badge in No5s! I **** you not.

[Krystal n chips]

Seen it being worn by many a prick in pretty much every operational theatre we've been in over the last 30 years!

Allow me to confirm your apt definition is not confined to the last 30 years. Mid 70's, 431 MU and this apparition appeared one day, stable belt, chip hat, creases in the uniform, collar and tie plus the infamous SAC Bloggs poster haircut....even the denims were pressed !..said Sgt duly attracted a lot of careful thought from the troops, the MU dress code bearing only a passing similarity to the rest of the RAF at the time. Finally, one evening, and purely an opportunist moment, sadly, his pristine denims, he inside them, and uniform had " an unfortunate encounter " with PRC being applied under pressure. I understand he returned to his spiritual homes Tech Records / Role bay at Brize when tourex.

The obsession with uniforms, and appearances, correlates very strongly with those equally obsessed with parades / drill / marching....a useful distraction from their own failings shall we say.

However, uniforms can prove entertaining.....arrived at an RE base in Germany to borrow a mine detector, quite why was never explained, and obviously we would be proficient in it's use....me, wearing a well frayed aircrew shirt of that era, my mate wearing a Heineken T shirt, one beret between us, and no rank tabs, plus those old green combat trousers, sea boot socks...and wellies...mud encrusted. The ensuing "conversation" in the guardroom was too good an opportunity to miss...so we didn't. Seemingly, the telephones wires to Bruggen, melted...sadly, our Boss at the time, a former CEGB hands on apprentice engineer solemnly assured the Army he would take appropriate action, which he did....with all the gravitas he could muster, he informed everybody at a beer call, we would, in future, take No1 HD / bulled shoes on every crash recovery....before offering his opinion as to the Army

[Top West 50]

In AAFCE and AFCENT in the early 80s, our bunker kit comprised a standard RAF blue shirt and DPM trousers. An American colleague remarked one exercise, "John, do you realise just how high on the hill you have to stand for that camouflage to be effective?"

[NutLoose]

No, I meant a proper operational theatre, one where you take your own accommodation with you.

Do they allow RV’s or Winnebago’s now?

:E

[NutLoose]

Detached to Gib, muppet movers smashed my bottle of duty free that soaked through all my uniforms, for weeks I was getting looks from everyone as I literally reeked of booze.

I still think a wide blue grey webbing belt would be better than a stable belt, that abomination wants to be buried in time with putties and swagger sticks

[dctyke]

End of an era, Kiwi shoe polish is ending sales in the U.K. They say no one buys it anymore.

[dduxbury310]

Just in case anybody cares, Kiwi boot polish was always manufactured in Australia (for reasons unknown!), and never in New Zealand, although this product was also exported to, and used in NZ! One of the World's (very) minor mysteries.

[Tocsin]

Aussie manufacturer named the product after his wife, who was from NZ.

[Finningley Boy]

In AAFCE and AFCENT in the early 80s, our bunker kit comprised a standard RAF blue shirt and DPM trousers. An American colleague remarked one exercise, "John, do you realise just how high on the hill you have to stand for that camouflage to be effective?"
I was that Soldier (Airman), HQ AAFCE the Boerfink Bunker, 1980-83. I was surprised we were issued from May to September, with KD. The senior RAF Officer, Group Captain Bryant, ruled that Officers had to wear long sleeve shirts at all times, with a Tie of course. All non-commissioned ranks were permitted the option of either long or short sleeve, no tie required for the latter. However, the three major command and control exercises which took place, Crested Eagle, Wintex (the clue's in the name) and Able Archer, all took place in Winter. Every time it was the same, all other NATO air force and certainly army personnel, turned up in their issue combat fatigues. The RAF alone, turned up in the standard working dress Blues. Some who had come by DPM kit by default, never general issue back then, would turn up as you say, in a mix and match. it was the same four years after when I was posted to Gatow, the most embarrassing image being a rather dishevelled looking crowd of RAF personnel being decanted off the Bus at the ranges, Platoons of 1 KOSB and 1 BW were already there. The looks of the perfect uniformed ranks of a Platoon of the KOSBs as they stood on parade with their Sergeant said everything, no comment just a row of knowing smiles, as the typical RAF, mix of wedgewood blue shirts with DPM trousers and tunics (the latter items were now issued alone), no cravats, no Khaki shirts no webbing and some scruffy urchins, male and female, for sure. Oh for the good old days!:ok:

FB

[teeteringhead]

would turn up as you say, in a mix and match.

When I was working in HQ BFFI (after the war) - '86-'87 I guess - we had a visit from the RAF Staff College from Bracknell.

Their "combat kit" (their words) was as follows:

DPM trousers, DMS boots and puttees(!)

Blue shirts, ties and (blue) woolly pullies

DPM jackets

SD hats.

I had enough trouble keeping a straight face, Lord knows what the RN and Army thought of it.......

[Asturias56]

"the most embarrassing image being a rather dishevelled looking crowd of RAF personnel being decanted off the Bus at the ranges, Platoons of 1 KOSB and 1 BW were already there. The looks of the perfect uniformed ranks of a Platoon of the KOSB"

perhaps you're in danger of confusing appearance with performance? The Guards are beautifully turned out but they're not necessarily the best soldiers in the British Army.................

[Bob Viking]

Do you really want to go down that rabbit hole?

BV

[Wensleydale]

When I was working in HQ BFFI (after the war) - '86-'87 I guess - we had a visit from the RAF Staff College from Bracknell.

Their "combat kit" (their words) was as follows:

DPM trousers, DMS boots and puttees(!)

Blue shirts, ties and (blue) woolly pullies

DPM jackets

SD hats.

I had enough trouble keeping a straight face, Lord knows what the RN and Army thought of it.......


I was in CAOC Stanley from '85-86. DPM was not on general issue at the time and I had to drive down to Innsworth to receive all of my deployment kit, including DPM, which had to be handed back to stores on return from the FI.

[Finningley Boy]

"the most embarrassing image being a rather dishevelled looking crowd of RAF personnel being decanted off the Bus at the ranges, Platoons of 1 KOSB and 1 BW were already there. The looks of the perfect uniformed ranks of a Platoon of the KOSB"

perhaps you're in danger of confusing appearance with performance? The Guards are beautifully turned out but they're not necessarily the best soldiers in the British Army.................
Well,,, I suppose as far as small arms handling and field craft etc are concerned,,,,,, I think the "Jocks" present on this occasion had us airmen/airwomen edged. However, at our own places of work at 26 SU and elsewhere, different story.

FB

[Mogwi]

Aussie manufacturer named the product after his wife, who was from NZ.

I guess she buffed up well!

Mog

[Wensleydale]

I guess she buffed up well!

Mog

Took a shine to her!

[langleybaston]

"the most embarrassing image being a rather dishevelled looking crowd of RAF personnel being decanted off the Bus at the ranges, Platoons of 1 KOSB and 1 BW were already there. The looks of the perfect uniformed ranks of a Platoon of the KOSB"

perhaps you're in danger of confusing appearance with performance? The Guards are beautifully turned out but they're not necessarily the best soldiers in the British Army.................

Which regiment do you want on your flank if push comes to shove?

[India Four Two]

Which regiment do you want on your flank if push comes to shove?

My dad would have instantly said "The Gurkhas!"

[NutLoose]

I was in CAOC Stanley from '85-86. DPM was not on general issue at the time and I had to drive down to Innsworth to receive all of my deployment kit, including DPM, which had to be handed back to stores on return from the FI.

The full lot was issued on arrival at Odi in 76 including the stupid bed with the clip in legs that promptly resided in a wardrobe for my time,. ohh and full webbing with no assembly instructions, even ikea give you instructions, I still couldn’t tell you what was meant to go where in each pouch. Though I did get it all together ok..
The worst thing in Germany was carrying 200 rounds in the front pouches plus a musket without anything on the rear to counter balance it all, standing for hours outside a HAS you would soon adopt the shape of a hunchback as the weight started to effect you.

[Haraka]

That stupid bed! Soon swapped in theatre for the USA version against some decent UK Ratpacks,!

[Ninthace]

I had a really nice leather shoulder holster, that was issued for a brief deployment, that stores refused to take back on the grounds it had been used. I tried asking what was the point of issuing stuff that was not meant to be used and all I got was got a blank look.

[Roland Pulfrew]

I had a really nice leather shoulder holster, that was issued for a brief deployment, that stores refused to take back on the grounds it had been used. I tried asking what was the point of issuing stuff that was not meant to be used and all I got was got a blank look.

I’ve still got mine somewhere. Only time it ever got used was on TACEVAL. Did remind me of being stood down to home for crew rest mid-TACEVAL and popping in to my local on the way home (different times) completely forgetting that I had holster (complete with 9mm) under the DPM smock. Landlord did suggest I keep my jacket on, but I still got the pint.

[NutLoose]

I had a really nice leather shoulder holster, that was issued for a brief deployment, that stores refused to take back on the grounds it had been used. I tried asking what was the point of issuing stuff that was not meant to be used and all I got was got a blank look.

Tried to exchange my DMS boots as the tread was worn smooth, stores bod refused to change them saying they were still serviceable, I pointed out they were lethal in the wet and nearly fell off the top decking of a Puma, I got the, that’s what safety boots are for.
I pointed out in the middle of a bloody field in the rain on exercise you expect me to lug a pair of boots along then change them before working on and getting off a Puma, sense finally prevailed when another Stores bod told him to stop being so stupid.