Red arrows confusing display team make up

[LOONRAT]

It seems the team are suffering an Annus horribilis this season. Transparency and truth seem to be at odds over the team now flying a seven ship full display formation as the official RAF website still shows 9 display pilots. I suspect this has not been changed otherwise it would identify the 2 team members who have moved on to 'New Duties'. Having led 2 RAF display teams and 2 civilian display teams and have undertaken over 2000 displays worldwide I know at first hand the extreme pressures placed on all display participants. I wish the team the best and look forward to seeing them display in their new format. Have a safe 2022

[KPax]

Cosford Airshow 12th June.

[xray one]

https://www.raf.mod.uk/display-teams/red-arrows/the-team/

[awair]

https://www.raf.mod.uk/display-teams/red-arrows/the-team/

I think you broke it???

[NutLoose]

He had it as HTTPS which is a secure link, removing the S fixes it.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/display-teams/red-arrows/the-team/


Wasn’t there 9 on the Jubilee Flypast? I suppose they must have borrowed a couple pilots as it was a straight forward flat display.

[LOONRAT]

Glad to see website updated to show the 7 display pilots but obviously done in a rush as the text for the team leader still says he leads 9 aircraft display team and display sequences still show 9 aircraft in the team. I am sure someone will attend to this and set the record straight. 10 aircraft flypast at Cranwell with me tucked in behind the leader. Happy Days.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1098x1750/red_arrows_and_yellowjack_cranwell_f29bde9d35650c67a5fc35243 5df74a9c6e0bba9.jpg

[Background Noise]

Wasn’t there 9 on the Jubilee Flypast? I suppose they must have borrowed a couple pilots as it was a straight forward flat display.

That was stated from the outset - For national flypast events, it is intended that the team will consist of all nine aircraft, with experienced RAFAT pilots completing the formation.

https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/royal-air-force-aerobatic-team-rafat-in-2022/

[DuncanDoenitz]

Mrs DD was PRO for a well known RAF Display Team in the noughties; averaged several newsworthy items on the Team's website every week. I notice that the BBMF's latest news item is a charity Dakota-pull from November 2021.

Appalling that with all the money still being poured in to airworthiness, crewing, fuel and so forth of these teams, who's raison d'etre is publicity, that the actual publicity-machine is so broken.

[stewyb]

7 ship will become the norm moving forward, cost cuts and all that!

[RAF_Techie101]

7 ship will become the norm moving forward, cost cuts and all that!

“Introducing the 2030 Royal Air Force Aerobatic Team, the Red Arrow!”

[57mm]

Odd to see one of the team has been in it for 5 years.

[sandiego89]

Glad to see website updated to show the 7 display pilots but obviously done in a rush as the text for the team leader still says he leads 9 aircraft display team and display sequences still show 9 aircraft in the team. I am sure someone will attend to this and set the record straight. 10 aircraft flypast at Cranwell with me tucked in behind the leader. Happy Days.




You just cant drop that great picture on us rat without the story! When was that pic taken? Did you fly both the Gnat an Hawk on team display? Civy Gant painted up?

[Il Duce]

"Red Arrows confusing display team make up"???? The Red Arrows wear make up?!! Goodness me, sign of the times, I suppose.

[Just This Once...]

Odd to see one of the team has been in it for 5 years.

I think Monty is still there and he must have had 16 years+ away from the frontline flying Hawks, with a short break for Aussie staff college. He has spent around a decade in the Reds in that time, so it really has been a flying club for him and I think his current stint as OC RAFAT has been extended too.

Who knew the Reds could be a dedicated career.

[6foottanker]

https://www.military-airshows.co.uk/team1.htm

Scroll down for both the original team members and the reason Bondy’s back again.

[bonajet]

That explains the recovery to a full nine but doesn’t explain why two more pilots have left, dropping the team to a 7.

[Asturias56]

Costs? Everything else is downsized

[Davef68]

That explains the recovery to a full nine but doesn’t explain why two more pilots have left, dropping the team to a 7.

The RAF are playing that one close to their chests (rightly IMO). The official reason is 'moved to other roles within the RAF'. We've all seen the press coverage . The RAF has a duty of care and confidentiality to those who serve, so unless something emerges like a court martial it's not fair to those who have left the team to speculate.

[teej013]

I watched the Reds at Teesside yesterday, all in all I think that they probably rescued the day there.
They arrived and landed, Displayed then landed, then departed again. Three displays for the price of one.
The display was good and tight dispite low cloud an a high wind across the runway, and the groungcrew mingled with the attending crowd, providing photo opps etc.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1944x1232/reds_in_murk_79eaac0bbff231292e9addbbd348895e8f22474d.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/reds_roll_0e20d58501acd1a18022ecdd21cc3ec7cb6773b5.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1563/reds_ground_crew_a5726ac32774bcf898fa6439d249aca51da2a906.jp g
Teej...

[airsound]

Thanks for that teej! Interesting that your one airborne picture shows a 9-ship. Was that part of the display, or was the display 7-ship, as announced?

airsound

[teej013]

The 9 ship was the arrival fly by, prior to the break to join the circuit for landing.

Teej.

[Underfoot]

It's going to be quite the work up season this winter....

[Nil_Drift]

Knowing that the Reds are all about uniformity, the first thing I noticed about the groundcrew is the mix of footwear, brown and black. On a couple of front line squadrons last week I noticed a whole variety of uniform ... except it wasn't "uniform" but accepted styles of military clothing. Coupled with wide variations of beards, visible tattoos and hairstyles, the RAF is looking like a loose collection of workers than a uniformed branch of the military.

[The Oberon]

Knowing that the Reds are all about uniformity, the first thing I noticed about the groundcrew is the mix of footwear, brown and black. On a couple of front line squadrons last week I noticed a whole variety of uniform ... except it wasn't "uniform" but accepted styles of military clothing. Coupled with wide variations of beards, visible tattoos and hairstyles, the RAF is looking like a loose collection of workers than a uniformed branch of the military.

They obviously don't get free Breitlings either!

[meleagertoo]

7 ship will become the norm moving forward, cost cuts and all that!
Can a formation of aircraft ever be flown in any other direction, or do the numbers/costs involved somehow affect this?

[airsound]

As far as the seven v nine situation is concerned, I now understand from someone 'close to the matter' that if an event organiser or flying display director is approved for a flypast they'll get nine, but the display will be seven. The extra two will be Red 10 and OC RAFAT. (So maybe Monty is hoping to persuade people to ask for flypasts?!) But anyway Cosford last Sunday, for instance, was seven.

airsound

[DuncanDoenitz]

Can a formation of aircraft ever be flown in any other direction, or do the numbers/costs involved somehow affect this?
As an ex-trembler, I would suggest that formations of less than 22 are definitely moving backwards.

(2 Pilots moving sideways notwithstanding).

[Davef68]

Can a formation of aircraft ever be flown in any other direction, or do the numbers/costs involved somehow affect this?

Helicopters can

[dfv8]

You just cant drop that great picture on us rat without the story! When was that pic taken? Did you fly both the Gnat an Hawk on team display? Civy Gant painted up?

Is that G-MOUR?

[LOONRAT]

Yes the aircraft is G-MOUR which I bought/ helped rebuild and flew on displays on behalf of David Gilmore in Uk and Europe for a few years. Invited by the team to visit and undertake some formation flying for publicity purposes, Rewarded with a trip with the team leader during a display practise. My second flight with the team having flown with them at Kemble in the 70's when I was seeking to join the team having led 2 Jet Provost teams in 73/74. I was unsucessful and left RAF and joined Rothmans Aerobatic Team and spent a good few years on the display circuit.

[dagenham]

A friend Was down at goodwood today and spoke to a member of the team and after a bit of squirming said they have a very clear direction from the higher ups on the culture expected in the RAF moving forward. Some can meet that expectation and some cannot… he left it at that

apparently a happier ship now so make of it want you will

[SLXOwft]

RAFAT flew past my (home) office window on their way to Goodwood yesterday. Couldn't help thinking the 5 in a V, gap, and 2 in echelon to starboard looked like a large missing men formation.

Busy few days for them, RAF Headcorn and back to Goodwood FoS today. (Weather permitting estimating the cloudbase)

Scarborough, & Cleethorpes with flypasts of Whitby & Filey thrown in before overnight in Bournemouth tomorrow, flying in the vicinity of my eldest's DofE hiking party. Wondering if OC RAFAT and Red 10 get to join in for the flypasts.:E

Back to Goodwood FoS and then Weston-S-M on Sunday.

Good to hear they're a happier ship. Don't want to know the details but I hope it was conduct prejudicial to the good order and discipline of the team not 'thought crimes' against Inglib.

[Arfur Dent]

Is that it for Summer 2022? Saw them at Silverstone.

[Davef68]

Yes,two team members were redeployed (A third had to leave earlier for family reasons, but was replaced by a former team member)

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

What's the plan for replacing the aircraft? They've been around for a few years now.

[ZH875]

What's the plan for replacing the aircraft? They've been around for a few years now.
Until British Aerospace have a new aircraft they need advertising, the Hawk T1 has plenty of spares to keep the BAe advertising team in their current mount.

[NutLoose]

If they can do a season with seven, it begs the question why do they need nine, think of the savings.... ;)

[Herod]

If they can do a season with seven, it begs the question why do they need nine, think of the savings.... ;)
B*gger the savings, Nutty. We traditionalists need the nine back. Full Reds next season hopefully.

[Bing]

What's the plan for replacing the aircraft? They've been around for a few years now.

I think the plan is not to be the Defence Secretary who 'Killed the Nation's Top Gun Aces!' in the eyes of the tabloids, while also not spending any money. Think of it like musical chairs for politicians.

[minigundiplomat]

That explains the recovery to a full nine but doesn’t explain why two more pilots have left, dropping the team to a 7.

Wrong pronouns maybe? Possibly too straight, white male for Wiggy the Woke?

[megan]

We traditionalists need the nine backWot about having the 22 back? Why did the Hunters do their thing with flap hanging out?


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x400/1657067328_9a20b1b53ce168a58f5a65020dea33e2906c5902.jpeg

[57mm]

Better maneuverabilty; not to be used above .9M, however.......

[pr00ne]

Wot about having the 22 back? Why did the Hunters do their thing with flap hanging out?


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x400/1657067328_9a20b1b53ce168a58f5a65020dea33e2906c5902.jpeg
Only happened once, with aircraft and aircrew from other squadrons drafted in.

[Herod]

Only happened once, with aircraft and aircrew from other squadrons drafted in.
Yes, but WHAT a "ONCE"

[pr00ne]

Yes, but WHAT a "ONCE"
Oh yes, can’t disagree with that!

[Asturias56]

In 10 years time there'll probably be a single "Red Arrow" :(

[KiloB]

In 10 years time there'll probably be a single "Red Arrow" :(

Red? Suspect it will have to be rainbow colored.

[dervish]

In 10 years time there'll probably be a single "Red Arrow" :(

Before we reach that stage maybe the RAF should come clean and detox. Otherwise people might think that far from solving the problem by moving people, it actually remains and is not only at pilot level.

[Il Duce]

"Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, next to display is the 2023 RAF Aerobatic Hawk. Please welcome The Rainbow!"

[SLXOwft]

I did muse that the reduction to seven was because there are seven colours of the rainbow to dye the diesel, (eco-friendly dye of course).

[The Oberon]

Being a local resident, about an hour ago they took off from here with only 6, five in a V and one tucked up in the middle.

[cynicalint]

"Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, next to display is the 2023 RAF Aerobatic Hawk. Please welcome The Rainbow!"
Oohh! You'd fail the Public Display Authorisation for that! Ladies and gentleman, boys and girls indeed!

[Il Duce]

Oh, yes, I'm about forty "titles" short there. Sorry.

[teej013]

Being a local resident, about an hour ago they took off from here with only 6, five in a V and one tucked up in the middle.

Ladies, Gents etc, The Brazilian ?

Ferret, Mac, Egress

[EGDLaddict]

OOOOOOOOOOOOH.
It's all gone very quiet. Censorship?
I guess that the spotters will have to wait until the Mail get's the story.

[cessnapete]

The best Military aerobatic team by far at RIAT were the Korean team. Spectacular formation changes during maneuvers, and very close formation at times.
The Italian team by presence in numbers overshadowed the Arrows too , with a small 7 man team, presumably financial cut backs?

[madhon]

I missed seeing the Arrows to be able to compare them against the others, but the Black Eagles where certainly the best on the day (sunday), was there any reason for the arrows displaying near the start of the day, I've always expected them to close the show ?

[stewyb]

The best Military aerobatic team by far at RIAT were the Korean team. Spectacular formation changes during maneuvers, and very close formation at times.
The Italian team by presence in numbers overshadowed the Arrows too , with a small 7 man team, presumably financial cut backs?

pains me to say it but their display is becoming rather dated and isn't helped by a 7 ship at present. There are many other exceptional teams out there and at RIAT both the black Eagles and Frecce Tricolori were far superior (in my opinion) with tighter formations and inventive manoeuvres. The Reds have quite rightly always been the pinnacle for display teams across the globe but the competition has caught up and now gone past them!

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I first saw the Red Arrows at Leuchars in the mid 1980s when they were parked next to the 40 year old museum pieces of the BBMF, all very beautiful, worth having 100% but antiquated and dated. The Red Arrows are still flying the same aircraft 40 years after that event, they're equivalence to the BBMF in that timeframe is painful. They were not relatively impressive at all when I saw them yesterday with the 7 ship formation. We should do it well, or stop doing it at all IMHO, it's a little bit cringeworthy now.

[Willard Whyte]

pains me to say it but their display is becoming rather dated and isn't helped by a 7 ship at present. There are many other exceptional teams out there and at RIAT both the black Eagles and Frecce Tricolori were far superior (in my opinion) with tighter formations and inventive manoeuvres. The Reds have quite rightly always been the pinnacle for display teams across the globe but the competition has caught up and now gone past them!

Golden Eagles. But yeah, stole the show in my eyes. Really frickin' awesome in fact.]

Stopped for a McD's and a car recharge on the way home on Saturday, they flew in formation over R Leamington Spa, or thereabouts, as we topped up.

[Willard Whyte]

Knowing that the Reds are all about uniformity, the first thing I noticed about the groundcrew is the mix of footwear, brown and black. On a couple of front line squadrons last week I noticed a whole variety of uniform ... except it wasn't "uniform" but accepted styles of military clothing. Coupled with wide variations of beards, visible tattoos and hairstyles, the RAF is looking like a loose collection of workers than a uniformed branch of the military.

Yeah, because everyone's the same by order. Individuality be damned.

[Steamer Ned]

Performing for the slowly cooking thousands at Falmouth yesterday, the formation on arrival and throughout their display comprised just six aircraft. I can find nothing online anywhere that mentions this... anyone know what's gone wrong this time?

Steamer Ned

[KPax]

Shawbury Families Day today, 8 arrived, 6 displayed.

[El Grifo]

Be the "Pinks" before too long !

El.

[NutLoose]

From RAFAT to RATHIN ?

[the_flying_cop]

Shawbury Families Day today, 8 arrived, 6 displayed.
Word is that one of them was poorly and elected not to fly.

[langleybaston]

which leaves one unaccounted for

[uxb99]

Do the Reds still arrive with the commentator? That would account for number 8. I have a photo of 11 Reds arriving in formation at Boscombe Down in the 90's.
9 display, 1 commentator and a spare.

[CAEBr]

which leaves one unaccounted for
Red 10, the commentator, was in the eigth jet.

[MechGov]

https://flip.it/l3vc-gRed Arrows drama as pilot sacked over ‘affair’ and second resigns over toxic culture

[Davef68]

Been picked up by the big papers now. In the Telegraph

[Finningley Boy]

Red Arrows pilot sacked after ‘affair’ and second quits over ‘toxic culture’ | Metro News (https://metro.co.uk/2022/08/15/red-arrows-pilot-sacked-after-affair-and-second-quits-over-toxic-culture-17184848/?ito=newsnow-feed)

I've never come across anything like this before.

FB

[charliegolf]

Getting to be a long suicide note...

[Finningley Boy]

Not meaning to be nosey but I wonder what the Toxic culture is that's referred to? Just can't imagine this in the days of the Great Red Arrows leaders of the past, Lee Jones, Ray Hannah AFC*, Ian Dick, Brian Hoskins etc.

FB

[dead_pan]

Drinking to excess, affairs, toxic culture, shock resignations, where have we heard that before??

I guess they can always rely their Diamond 1 formation and single singleton display elements

[campbeex]

Apart from the obvious, one of the disappointing aspects of this story is the lack of imagination put into nicknames in today's Royal Air Force (e.g. Damon "Damo" Green).

[langleybaston]

Teresa?

[Hueymeister]

Peasa?

[vascodegama]

FB check PMs

[Runaway Gun]

Nicknames are too easily offensive to third parties.

[peterperfect]

Teresa?
Camberwick ?

[exMudmover]

Finningley Boy

“I’ve never come across anything like this before”

Er – it’s been a lot worse in the distant past.

In the late 60s a new leader was parachuted into the team without having flown with them before ‘down the back’, so to speak. During the season work-up he was so bad at leading that the rest of the formation broke away during a display practice and landed independently.

The team refused to fly with him again; a previous leader was brought in on the spot and led a successful season.

It happened again in the mid 70s, although it wasn’t quite so dramatic.

Unofficially, the Arrows (that’s what we used to call them - not the Reds), are the only RAF unit which can sack its own boss.
ExMM

[Hueymeister]

So, will the Senior Leadership Team replace Red 1 or the team Boss?

[Lotoftime]

ExMM that is most definitely not worse than what has been going on lately, and what the investigation is uncovering.

[Diff Tail Shim]

Apart from the obvious, one of the disappointing aspects of this story is the lack of imagination put into nicknames in today's Royal Air Force (e.g. Damon "Damo" Green).
One of the newbies has a nickname that is not that politically correct. I doubt he will use it and I certainly will not be offering to disclose it here.

[alfred_the_great]

One of the newbies has a nickname that is not that politically correct. I doubt he will use it and I certainly will not be offering to disclose it here.

and this you’ve posted because?

[Diff Tail Shim]

and this you’ve posted because?
Because non political nicknames still exist?

[oldmansquipper]

One of the best nicknames (call signs?) I seen recently was the one used by F35 test pilot Steve Long …..

[Stitchbitch]

OMS, we had quite a few on Harrier including LOG (Schlong) and SAK. A good chuckle could be had when BAD, BAK, DIC, & HED were programmed on the same 4 ship...

[oldmansquipper]

OMS, we had quite a few on Harrier including LOG (Schlong) and SAK. A good chuckle could be had when BAD, BAK, DIC, & HED were programmed on the same 4 ship...

SB

DiC and HeD seem very appropriate for Harrier mates. (IMHO of course)

😉

[dervish]

Red Arrows pilot sacked after ‘affair’ and second quits over ‘toxic culture’ | Metro News (https://metro.co.uk/2022/08/15/red-arrows-pilot-sacked-after-affair-and-second-quits-over-toxic-culture-17184848/?ito=newsnow-feed)

I've never come across anything like this before.

FB

I think the RAF hierarchy would have been better to be honest and get this one out of the way, rather than allowing it to drag on. It's a repeat of what was happening about 10 years ago isn't it?

[cynicalint]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x799/telemmglpict000306003647_trans_nvbqzqnjv4bqyrhvvlrbqsjvnyfkb gv7fyo4sq7jpfm3qewdzmqopek_jpeg_5f615a735fe4a03409da492c1506 d3add236e015.jpg
Daily Telegraph this afternoon predicts the future of the Arrows. A phot taken at Balckpool pleasure beach recently

[Herod]

Bring back the Yellowjacks; or even the Black Arrows.

[57mm]

Firebirds for me!

[exMudmover]

LotofTime

Reference historical Red Arrows problems:

‘ExMM that is most definitely not worse than what has been going on lately, and what the investigation is uncovering.’ My italics

I have no idea of the full ins and outs of what has just happened to the team. as I take all media reports about aviation with a large pinch of salt.

However, If you had some experience of formation display aerobatics I’m sure you would agree that the prospect of the entire team being flown into the ground by an incompetent leader would certainly grab your attention.
ExMM

[brianj]

Always admired the Arrows over many years. Unfortunately after reading press accounts of this apparent debacle I sadly have to say that should the Government decide we can no longer afford them then I would be saddened but not devastated. To not be able to perform a 9 ship team is totally disappointing and an embarrassment for both the RAF &UK. The resources required have, in recent years, been repaid in global pride and esteem whilst inspiring potential recruits (albeit not it seems of the required ethnic quota). In the current economic crisis there are probably many who feel the money could be spent in more needy areas. Can anyone put forward the argument they deserve to continue to exist or could we have 2 more Wedgetails instead? Personally would like both!!

[Melchett01]

Not meaning to be nosey but I wonder what the Toxic culture is that's referred to? Just can't imagine this in the days of the Great Red Arrows leaders of the past, Lee Jones, Ray Hannah AFC*, Ian Dick, Brian Hoskins etc.

FB

This one is a stinker. I was told about it a few months ago by a former colleague with links back to the Hawk. Thought it was all gossip or rumour and likely overblown. However, the press reports, as they are, are accurate. But they are a fraction of what’s been going on. If it comes out in full it will be a massive problem given Wigston’s report.

[Melchett01]

Always admired the Arrows over many years. Unfortunately after reading press accounts of this apparent debacle I sadly have to say that should the Government decide we can no longer afford them then I would be saddened but not devastated. To not be able to perform a 9 ship team is totally disappointing and an embarrassment for both the RAF &UK. The resources required have, in recent years, been repaid in global pride and esteem whilst inspiring potential recruits (albeit not it seems of the required ethnic quota). In the current economic crisis there are probably many who feel the money could be spent in more needy areas. Can anyone put forward the argument they deserve to continue to exist or could we have 2 more Wedgetails instead? Personally would like both!!

Yes - the FCDO, DIT and Treasury would be rather upset at the massively reduced trade, goodwill and diplomatic leverage UK plc would lose out on if we got rid of them. Doesn’t mean there aren’t issues to be resolved though.

[Finningley Boy]

Finningley Boy

“I’ve never come across anything like this before”

Er – it’s been a lot worse in the distant past.

In the late 60s a new leader was parachuted into the team without having flown with them before ‘down the back’, so to speak. During the season work-up he was so bad at leading that the rest of the formation broke away during a display practice and landed independently.

The team refused to fly with him again; a previous leader was brought in on the spot and led a successful season.

It happened again in the mid 70s, although it wasn’t quite so dramatic.

Unofficially, the Arrows (that’s what we used to call them - not the Reds), are the only RAF unit which can sack its own boss.
ExMM
If my memory serves me correctly, Ray Hannah led the team from '66 to '69 then Den Hazell took over for 1970. Former team member, Bill Loverseed took over following the loss of more than one pilot during a serious incident during a training flight in 1971. I imagine the individual you refer to here remains unnamed.

FB

[Diff Tail Shim]

Always admired the Arrows over many years. Unfortunately after reading press accounts of this apparent debacle I sadly have to say that should the Government decide we can no longer afford them then I would be saddened but not devastated. To not be able to perform a 9 ship team is totally disappointing and an embarrassment for both the RAF &UK. The resources required have, in recent years, been repaid in global pride and esteem whilst inspiring potential recruits (albeit not it seems of the required ethnic quota). In the current economic crisis there are probably many who feel the money could be spent in more needy areas. Can anyone put forward the argument they deserve to continue to exist or could we have 2 more Wedgetails instead? Personally would like both!!

Get pilots to that are there for the achievement, not the ego. They are the best ambassadors for the UK. Crossed paths with the good, the bad and ugly that flew a tour with RAFAT.

[cynicalint]

Daddy, Daddy, When I grow up I want to be a Red Arrows pilot! Sorry son, you can't do both!

[Diff Tail Shim]

Daddy, Daddy, When I grow up I want to be a Red Arrows pilot! Sorry son, you can't do both!
Above average pilots do have an ego. They must have that to do what they do. But they can have an ego and not be a Richard Cranium. The Daily Mail love one Red for reasons we all know. I met him in a mess one day and he was in bully mode. Why was I there? Invited guest (and I was civilian in rank was my answer). Mentioned the incident to another officer whom was there at the time a few years later and his reply was "He could be like that! Countdown.

[Low average]

I think many of the RAF's best fast jet pilots avoid the Reds.

The role requires parading in the public eye, which doesn't sit well with many warfighters and can, in extreme cases, attract the wrong type of individual.

I do hope the RAF get this sorted. It could be seen as a good thing that the dirty laundry is being aired in public and I hope that the problem is dealt with head on, with no half-measures. Whether it's an individual, or a recruitment process - things clearly need to change, for the long-term success of the team, and before the accidents start to happen again.

[STIG781]

Because non political nicknames still exist?

They mean why mention it yet not state the nickname?

Also "political and non-political" pilot nicknames don't exist outside the minds of teenage and twenty-something Twitter users.

Wet blanket.

[langleybaston]

"The accidents". one way or another, have not stopped, unless one has short memory.

The very existence of the Reds depends on an unquantifiable belief that they are good for recruiting, image, trade, prestige, ceremonial and the like.

On the cost side they gobble up funds, maintain obsolete aircraft, keep about a dozen trained fast-jet pilots from useful roles, and consume vast amounts of red paint, dye, fuel and vino.

Time was, but this is 2022. Perhaps we should try to do without, as we are practising with fewer and fewer.

[Diff Tail Shim]

They mean why mention it yet not state the nickname?

Also "political and non-political" pilot nicknames don't exist outside the minds of teenage and twenty-something Twitter users.

Wet blanket.
They do like they still do in any military organisation. I don't mention it as the guy has not been officially announced as selected yet, even though others screwed up big time on keeping a secret. I was talking to him on Saturday and congratulating him on his selection. Lots of people know the bloke due to his wide range of aeronautical hobbies outside of the RAF sphere and he is respected in the RAF as being a bloody good egg.

[dervish]

I do hope the RAF get this sorted. It could be seen as a good thing that the dirty laundry is being aired in public and I hope that the problem is dealt with head on, with no half-measures. Whether it's an individual, or a recruitment process - things clearly need to change, for the long-term success of the team, and before the accidents start to happen again.

Agreed. But worth saying that the RAF tried to keep this covered up. It isn't they who are airing it. Wash, rinse, repeat.

[ancientaviator62]

I agree with LB, I served as groundcrew on 92 (Biue Diamonds) and we still had an AD role in Fighter Command. In these difficult times , good as they are they are a luxury we can ill afford.

[Underfoot]

I struggle to see how, if pilots leave as planned at the end of the year, RAFAT will rebuild as a nine ship and bring the rear section back to the show. Reds 4 and 6 have done 5 and 4 years respectively, with Red 5 also coming towards the end of his expected time on the team. That leaves Red 7 to move up to synchro lead with 3 pilots required to move to the back of the team and somehow recreated the Gypo break etc. Public maths, if people leave as planned, there would only be 2 pilots available to move back to the roles of Red 7,8 and 9. It is not a safe course of action unless people stay on for another year and help rebuild the team.

Assuming that things are as bad as they seem at Scampton, why would anybody wish to remain beyond their expected tour? This might be a natural time for the RAF to consign RAFAT to the history books. Their display this year is, at best, lame and I fear that too much damage has been done.

[teeteringhead]

Gypo break etc. Slightly surprised they are still allowed to call it that!

[NutLoose]

Well, this will be interesting...

The RAF Red Arrows will return to the Middle East this year as part of a five week tour, making their debut at the Bahrain International Airshow and visiting the nations of Egypt, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates.
The Royal Air Force announced on Monday that the team will be participating at the Bahrain International Airshow on the 9th-11th November 2022 – one of the region’s most important aviation trade shows, held biannually since 2010. While in the region, the team will tour several other nations, including Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, supporting the UK’s business and defence initiatives. The RAF said they also hoped the tour would include the team’s first visit to Egypt in almost 20 years.

Totalling five weeks, the tour will begin after their European display season ends, likely commencing in early October and finishing in mid-November. Their European season began in France on the 28th May, with their final appearance currently scheduled for the Great North Run on Saturday 11th September.

The Middle East is the Red Arrows’ most recent destination outside Europe, with the team having visited in 2014, 2016 and 2017. In 2019, they instead toured North America, but returned to the Middle East for a short mini-tour in 2021 in support of the UK’s participation in the delayed Expo 2020 event in Dubai.

This will be the Red Arrows’ first visit to the region as a seven-ship team; the squadron is performing with just seven jets this year, rather than the usual nine, after the unexpected departure of two pilots during pre-season training.


Red Arrows to undertake five-week Middle East tour in late 2022 - This is Flight (http://thisisflight.net/2022/07/19/red-arrows-to-undertake-five-week-middle-east-tour-in-late-2022/)

[Null Orifice]

Eight performing at Benson today. Pic courtesy of a family member.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1118x800/whatsapp_image_2022_08_18_at_1_53_42_pm_57ad00af22b9e7957bf9 90fc8e4e378d5c7de093.jpeg
Nice cars too!

[NutLoose]

I see MT has improved, or is it cutbacks and they haven't been able to replace them yet?

[langleybaston]

I see MT has improved, or is it cutbacks and they haven't been able to replace them yet?

They will belong to the SWO and the MT WO [if such posts still exist]

[oldgrubber]

I'm afraid the Reds are ready to be consigned to history just like the field gun and mast manning. Nice while it lasted but definitely not the best anymore and hardly relevant as a showcase of British industry. Years ago people on here were claiming that "It only cost 10 million a year" (yeh right) and was "value for money". When a twin rotor Wokka can wow the crowds without all the drama about who's made who cry behind the scenes, that's value for money; especially when the aircraft actually has a day job! Cheers now

[The Oberon]

I'm afraid the Reds are ready to be consigned to history just like the field gun and mast manning. Nice while it lasted but definitely not the best anymore and hardly relevant as a showcase of British industry. Years ago people on here were claiming that "It only cost 10 million a year" (yeh right) and was "value for money". When a twin rotor Wokka can wow the crowds without all the drama about who's made who cry behind the scenes, that's value for money; especially when the aircraft actually has a day job! Cheers now

What he said. I have always been an air show fan but I usually left before the Red Arrows "topped the bill". I have always preferred to watch a solo Lightening, Phantom, Harrier, Tornado or Typhoon solo display and judging from crowd reactions, I wasn't the only one

[KrisKringle]

What he said. I have always been an air show fan but I usually left before the Red Arrows "topped the bill". I have always preferred to watch a solo Lightening, Phantom, Harrier, Tornado or Typhoon solo display and judging from crowd reactions, I wasn't the only one

Ha! That's so funny: a wokka having the same wow factor as the Reds.

Watching the Reds at big seaside shows - with the real British public - the massive applause, oohs and ahhs makes me proud to have once served and the crowd's reaction sends a tingle down the spine. But I appreciate for some - a chip on the shoulder or jealously - may not appreciate the excellence on display.

[hunterboy]

Does the excellence on display add value to the RAF or U.K. plc ? If so, keep them. If not, well……

[DaveReidUK]

Does the excellence on display add value to the RAF or U.K. plc ? If so, keep them. If not, well……

Yes, that would be a good criterion. If only we knew how to measure it ...

[ancientaviator62]

KK,
I have neither a chip on my shoulder nor jealousy towards the 'Arrows' I have been there as I stated (as an Air Radar fitter I was on the 'Derv' team !) BUT we also ,as I said we played our part in AD exercises and the like. As we appear to be lacking in FJ pilots and groundcrew my take is that these members of the 'Arrows' could be more usefully employed elsewhere in the RAF.
Given the 'diversity' pause in RAF recruiting I do wonder who would attempt join the RAF just because of one of their displays .

[KrisKringle]

Ancient

I think we agree that the situation the RAF finds itself right now is both embarrasing and appalling: a broken training system, lack of SQEP especially in frontline roles, pay freezes or well below inflation pay rises for over a decade, and now this fiasco of prejudice against white males in recruitment. I am so glad to be out of it and working in a team where everyone is highly valued and treated fairly with respect.

My point re Reds bashing, is it often comes from those who haven't achieved their ambitions, as they had hoped, or from those who serve/d in other sections of the Forces who see it as an easy way to bash the RAF. The high regard in which the public view and react positively to the RAF is observed by me when the Reds display at public festivals. It is very impressive.

[oldgrubber]

KK ,
Thank goodness you you were able to enlighten me as to my problems with the Reds. I obviously lack the intellect to see the big picture, or maybe I'm just blinded by my jealousy. Jog on.

[The Oberon]

KK,
I have been watching the RAFAT since yellow Gnat days and living in Scampton village I probably see more of the current team than most on here. I haven't been to a display for a few years so don't have much knowledge of audience reactions but I am more than aware of local reactions, most of whom lived here prior to RAFAT's arrival, but that's another story.
Jealous ? maybe, but if I do get jealous or want a seaside shiver then I would sooner get it from something like this, but having spent 20 of my 22 with the V-force I am probably biased as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2avH9wP__PA

[El Grifo]

Saw my first Vulcan blasting off from Prestwick and parting the clouds leaving a plume of smoke trailing back through the hole sometime in the early '60s
Never forget that image for as long as I live.

El Grifo

[Diff Tail Shim]

Well, this will be interesting...



Red Arrows to undertake five-week Middle East tour in late 2022 - This is Flight (http://thisisflight.net/2022/07/19/red-arrows-to-undertake-five-week-middle-east-tour-in-late-2022/)
An exercise bolt on that they are no less capable of doing than any front line squadron. How long have you actually been out of the air force?

[MightyGem]

Two page spread in today's Daily Mail:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11128437/Toxic-culture-revealed-three-Red-Arrows-quit-suspended.html

[charliegolf]

People on the inside are gossiping to people on the outside. That can't be good.

CG

[uxb99]

Nothing wrong with the Red Arrows. Still a big crowd pull imho. I just wish they could get some altitude to do their full display.
I bet Rah Hanna is doing an opposition bend in his grave though,

[Timelord]

Big splash on the Times on line front page now. In print tomorrow I presume.

[Lyneham Lad]

The Times article in all its (non) glory (minus the usual photos).
Red Arrows engulfed by bullying and assault row (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/05dc2e36-2316-11ed-83fa-560ae4fda953?shareToken=9a0a232d76637dc9ffb10269fd575e33)

Members of the Red Arrows have been accused of bullying, misogyny, assault, sexual harassment and drunkenness in the biggest scandal in the team’s 60-year history, The Times can reveal.

More than 40 personnel, several of them young female recruits, have provided 250 hours of evidence to a long-running inquiry into the “toxic pocket” of the RAF.

Alleged victims are said to have been told for months that if they spoke up they would be sent home or kicked out of the air force as senior leaders “swept complaints under the carpet” for years to protect the reputations of people considered “untouchable”.


The investigation, instigated in December by Air Chief Marshal Sir Mike Wigston, was meant to have concluded in May but has been repeatedly delayed.No details are known on when its findings will now be released.

An inside source, who was one of 40 people who gave evidence and wanted to remain anonymous, has come forward to expose what she said was the culture at the elite aerobatic team in which female recruits were considered “fresh meat”. She said: “At the moment many females are at risk because there are numerous toxic pockets within the air force, but there is no urgency to act.”

Another source helping with the inquiry said that the allegations about the Red Arrows were only the “tip of the iceberg”.

The RAF is facing a crisis over its diversity targets, accused of looking for ways to prioritise women and ethnic minority recruits over white men. As part of the Red Arrows inquiry at least two Red Arrows personnel are under investigation and face “administrative action” after allegations of “inappropriate behaviours”, according to the inside source. This could result in them being thrown out of the air force.

A service police investigation found that none of the alleged behaviours met the threshold for criminal charges.

The team is already operating below strength. It usually consists of nine pilots, Red 1 to Red 9, their supervisor Red 10, a commanding officer and a ground crew. It now has a skeleton team of seven after the departures (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/red-arrows-squad-members-hate-each-other-gttrb7x0h) of Flight Lieutenant Damon Green, known as Damo, who is in his late thirties and was Red 8, and Flight Lieutenant Will Cambridge, 39, who was Red 4. A defence source said that both men were on “other duties”.Allegations against one individual included behaviours going back to 2019, but the Special Investigation Branch found insufficient evidence for a criminal investigation. It is understood that by the time the SIB concluded its investigation some women had refused to give testimony because of the trauma of so many interviews.

After complaints were first raised about Cambridge he was allowed to continue to fly, the source alleged.


Squadron leader Nick Critchell, 36, resigned in protest against the “toxic culture” after confronting a colleague.

The inside source said that members of the 130-strong squadron would start “pestering” young recruits as soon as they joined, and “bombard” them with WhatsApp messages. “The girls who join the squadron are basically considered fresh meat,” the source said. “All of them are married and they just don’t leave them alone. It’s a toxic environment . . . It’s all men in senior positions. It is run by misogynistic white male blokes.”


The team was also accused of having tolerated a heavy drinking culture in the past, including drinking into the early hours — sometimes resulting in brawls — before pilots flew the same day. The source said this meant that alcohol would still have been in their systems when they were flying.

Other teams, including the Thunderbirds, of the US air force, and the Blue Angels, of the US navy, have remarked in the past on the Red Arrows members’ drinking.

A spokesman for the RAF said allegations that Red Arrows pilots had flown while intoxicated were unfounded.


Another person helping the inquiry said: “The Red Arrows and those around them were deemed untouchable and that has created a toxic culture, destroying unit cohesion . . . and ultimately highlighting poor leadership.”

The source accused the RAF and the Ministry of Defence of “delay and obfuscation”, adding that the issues with the squadron were “merely the tip of the iceberg”. They said the “sacred” chain of command “cannot be trusted to deal with toxic behaviours”, adding: “There is zero independent oversight.”

It is understood that the non-statutory inquiry has so far documented at least 13 alleged behaviours including misogyny, harassment, sexual harassment, assault, “misunderstanding of consent”, sexual assault, victimisation, bullying, intimidation, isolation and indecent exposure. Leaders accused of trying to keep allegations secret are still in post.

Diane Allen, who served for 30 years in the British Army and campaigns for better treatment for servicewomen, said that the RAF leadership had been urged for six months to “deal fairly and swiftly with these allegations”, adding: “They have not.”


Allen said the women who made the allegations had been put “on trial and forced to tell their story repeatedly” as those accused had been “supported, promoted”. She said: “The leadership is brushing it under the carpet.”

Some of the evidence was provided to an inquiry led by the Conservative MP Sarah Atherton into the treatment of women in the military. Four thousand female personnel and veterans gave evidence, revealing abuses of power.

The RAF spokesman said: “The RAF has a zero-tolerance approach to unacceptable behaviour and takes action wherever wrongdoing is proven.

“Following allegations of unacceptable behaviour within the Red Arrows, the RAF commissioned a thorough and far-reaching investigation. We will not be commenting further on the individual circumstances of specific personnel moves, which have been made without prejudice and are the result of both personal and professional reasons.”

[blimey]

Target rich environment - depressingly, all part of human nature.

[medod]

Target rich environment - depressingly, all part of human nature.

Rubbish

[medod]

I think Monty is still there and he must have had 16 years+ away from the frontline flying Hawks, with a short break for Aussie staff college. He has spent around a decade in the Reds in that time, so it really has been a flying club for him and I think his current stint as OC RAFAT has been extended too.

Who knew the Reds could be a dedicated career.

Explains a lot.

[BEagle]

'Eclat' indeed.....

What a dreadful account of their behaviour.

[charliegolf]

The Arrows are tasked to do amazing things in an unforgiving environment. It requires skills and attributes that few possess, in an atmosphere where there is always an expectation to 'do more' and to do it in the full gaze of the public and the wider 'expert-for-a-day' command chain. Leadership and resources are pivotal but the team finds itself operating from a derelict airfield, hosted by a non-flying station commander, operating the equipment of yesteryear with ground crew that arrive with little or no Hawk experience and overseen and tasked by a convoluted command-chain. Who leads RAFAT... is it the AoC who is the sole arbiter and decision maker for public displays, or the Team Leader, or OC RAFAT, or the team members with their hire/reject social and personality veto during selection, or all those in the AoC's leadership chain with an ill-defined role, the MoD and RAF PR teams or those that actually hold all the support purse-strings?

Is that a justification for poor behaviour and very poor judgement?

CG

[Just This Once...]

Is that a justification for poor behaviour and very poor judgement?

CG


No.


In an unchecked culture the bacteria will grow.

[ORAC]

When the mood shifts to the team being laughed at……

Accepting it’s a parody site, it’s one with a love of aviation at its heart.

https://twitter.com/raf_luton/status/1562337465373016064?s=21&t=vuiok1YXHbp5VmyXWVgzXw


RAF Luton

BREAKING: For safety reasons fans of the Red Arrows can only visit them in their enclosure from 1100-1400 Tues-Thurs (Standard RAF working hours) and are encouraged not to feed them or mention bullying

Photographed from a Canberra


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1743x1168/image_951140395a9efd60c6cd00f01824312c5578ab5c.jpeg

[Davef68]

Leadership and resources are pivotal but the team finds itself operating from a derelict airfield, hosted by a non-flying station commander, operating the equipment of yesteryear with ground crew that arrive with little or no Hawk experience and overseen and tasked by a convoluted command-chain. Who leads RAFAT... is it the AoC who is the sole arbiter and decision maker for public displays, or the Team Leader, or OC RAFAT, or the team members with their hire/reject social and personality veto during selection, or all those in the AoC's leadership chain with an ill-defined role, the MoD and RAF PR teams or those that actually hold all the support purse-strings?

Wasn't the introduction of OC RAFAT meant to bring a semblance of 'normality' to the leadership chain for the Red Arrows?

[MATELO]

Not Good.

RAF sacks some personnel after claims of 'unacceptable behaviours' from members of Red Arrows (https://news.sky.com/story/raf-sacks-some-personnel-after-claims-of-unacceptable-behaviours-from-members-of-red-arrows-12750486)

[Asturias56]

In a statement, the RAF said the action was a result of an inquiry that revealed "a broad range of unacceptable behaviours" at the aerobatics display team.

It said that "several" personnel have been investigated, with a range of outcomes "up to and including dismissals from the RAF". In August, the head of the RAF vowed to address "legitimate questions" raised about allegations of sexual harassment and bullying within the Red Arrows along with a number of other issues. That was a response to a story in The Sun and The Times newspapers about a "toxic culture" in the aerobatics display team (https://news.sky.com/story/rafs-three-simultaneous-crises-put-air-chief-marshal-sir-mike-wigston-under-pressure-12680964).

Both newspapers reported the departure of two of the team's nine pilots, revealing that Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sir Mike Wigston had launched an inquiry in December, which documented allegations of bullying, misogyny and sexual harassment.

More than 40 personnel had given evidence, including young, female recruits.

[Finningley Boy]

Wasn't the introduction of OC RAFAT meant to bring a semblance of 'normality' to the leadership chain for the Red Arrows?
At one time there was an RAF outfit called the Central Participation Committee who I believe were responsible for allocating display commitments for all RAF personnel and assets. I believe there is something similar today but I'm not sure what its called the Public Relations department or something?

FB

[Sky Sports]

The new team leader will soon have them back on track. I've known 'Wobbly' for a number of years now, and he's definitely the bloke for the job. He has an amazing eye for detail.

https://www.suffolkgazette.com/suffolk-pilot-selected-for-red-arrows/

[Old_Slartibartfast]

Is anyone really at all surprised by this news?

All that has changed in the past 40 years or so is that those on the receiving end of what has been endemic misogynistic behaviour for as long as I can remember (and I'm now 70) have at last had the courage and means to speak out about what was always referred to as "high spirits" in my day. My dear wife was subjected to this sort of behaviour in the mess many times over the years, despite, or perhaps because, she was seen as fair game, just because her choice of career was to be a medic. She felt there was no way to complain about, or criticise, the constant verbal and physical assaults by a few of the "flying gods", as to do so would be seen as being career limiting. I retired several decades ago, and frankly I do not miss the often sexist banter with my former colleagues one bit. It's time for these dinosaurs to face their extinction and accept that society has moved on and become fairer since the days before women were given parity with men.

[Jobza Guddun]

At one time there was an RAF outfit called the Central Participation Committee who I believe were responsible for allocating display commitments for all RAF personnel and assets. I believe there is something similar today but I'm not sure what its called the Public Relations department or something?

FB
RAF Events Team.

[Finningley Boy]

RAF Events Team.
That's them.

FB