No more ACs, LACs, and SACs....

[downsizer]

So from July we have Air Recruits and Air Specialists class 1 and 2......

That won't offend anyone in or out will it?

[Cat Techie]

So from July we have Air Recruits and Air Specialists class 1 and 2......

That won't offend anyone in or out will it?
What the..

[Just This Once...]

Special...

[ZH875]

According to the RAF Web page, it looks like the roles of NCA have been changed.

"RAF Non-Commissioned Aircrew fly aircraft and helicopters to carry out air patrols over the UK. ...."

[Krystal n chips]

So from July we have Air Recruits and Air Specialists class 1 and 2......

That won't offend anyone in or out will it?

Well now that you ask...on here, highly likely...this will be reflected in the number of pages of course.

All I can say, is, the RAF abolished the best rank it ever had many years ago....J/T

[Barksdale Boy]

One assumes you held it.

[charliegolf]

According to the RAF Web page, it looks like the roles of NCA have been changed.

"RAF Non-Commissioned Aircrew fly aircraft and helicopters to carry out air patrols over the UK. ...."

A1 G1 Z1 not required anymore then?:E

CG

[Union Jack]

Surely "Specialist" sounds like it has been borrowed from the cousins, or is the light blue half way to being "Special Forces"?

Jack

[NutLoose]

So SAC and SAC Tech that replaced JT are to be one? How will that work? If true another waste of money.

I cannot find anything about it on the RAF website BTW.

so is this a specialist operation or will it be an internal war? :E

.

[Jobza Guddun]

Ah but Nutty they've thought about this....Air Specialist Technician....

Chief to go next, along with Master, due to the inference of superiority. You saw it here first.

[NutLoose]

So Air Specialist Marshall and Specialist of the Air Staff in that case ?

and what about Chief of Staff Personnel and Air Secretary

[langleybaston]

What about the badges, two-blade and three-blade?

[langleybaston]

Who dreams up this crap? Worth an OBE at least, of course.

[NutLoose]

What pisses me off is they bleat on about budgets but this crap will cost a fortune, just as the JT changes did, all literature will need to be changed etc for what?

[Jobza Guddun]

What pisses me off is they bleat on about budgets but this crap will cost a fortune, just as the JT changes did, all literature will need to be changed etc for what?

Just take comfort in the fact that 37 people in the RAF now feel much happier and can spend less time being offended....

Maybe now they can show us they're interested in solving the bigger issues....

[oldmansquipper]

O4FS!

IMHO It’s a complete and utter waste of time and money!

However, I suppose it’s good to see the RAF has enough spare cash to go this route, what with increased NATO commitments and a major war on our doorstep.

…..Or is it just more the whim of #WokeWiggy@Work?


🤬

[plans123]

Pass the popcorn, so I can sit here and watch all the usual suspects implode with rage...

[Timelord]

My Dad was an AC2 and now we’ll have AS2s.Plus ca change……..

[oldmansquipper]

What about the badges, two-blade and three-blade?

LBN Wash your mouth out!

There will be NO identifying badges, of course.

How can you have equality if one specialist aviator has only 2 blades and another has 3….it would be soooooooo unfair.

[teeteringhead]

How can you have equality if one specialist aviator has only 2 blades and another has 3….it would be soooooooo unfair. Can those working on the Atlas have one with 8 blades please........

[Herod]

Well now that you ask...on here, highly likely...this will be reflected in the number of pages of course.

All I can say, is, the RAF abolished the best rank it ever had many years ago....J/T

Many years before that actually. Master Pilot. No, I wasn't one; before my time.

[MPN11]

Next to go will be Pilot Officer. Not a Pilot, obviously, as not a Graduate Entry. So some other pointless change to squllions of documents and legislation.

Keep the CS clerks fully occupied, eh, Sir Humphrey?

I really do worry about the mental processes of those driving these pointless and expensive escapades.

[Jobza Guddun]

Can those working on the Atlas have one with 8 blades please........

There's the flaw in your plan Teeters....nobody actually works on Atlas, they just look at them sat outside on the line....

[Haraka]

My Father was a Senior Technician........

[MPN11]

My Father was a Senior Technician........
Mine was a Captain.

RA, not RN.

[Haraka]

Father's reaction after what he saw as an attack on the technical trades was an education..A Halton Brat from 1939 he chucked it in in disgust and went out in to the aircraft industry.( where he did quite well).

[papa_sierra]

Well I cannot find a mention - link please (iusedtobe a J/T)

[downsizer]

It's in an IBN. Briefed to those it affects I guess?:E

[papa_sierra]

Thanks, lost the plot when they became Aviators.

[NutLoose]

Next to go will be Pilot Officer. Not a Pilot, obviously, as not a Graduate Entry. So some other pointless change to squllions of documents and legislation.

Keep the CS clerks fully occupied, eh, Sir Humphrey?

I really do worry about the mental processes of those driving these pointless and expensive escapades.

Surely they should also drop the pilot, flying, flight , Etc from the officer ranks as they to have no bearing for the modern day duvet stackers or leased transport officers.. :E

[Haraka]

Are our sister services also trashing their traditional rank appelations?

[NRU74]

My Father was a Senior Technician........

I remember the introduction of the (I think) 1964 Trade Structure in the RAF, upside down chevrons (?) were abolished and a Chief Tech had what I'd had as a (was it senior) cadet in the CCF - a four blade prop above the three chevrons. I remember the 'techies' were very pi$$ed off as being sort of demoted below Flt Sgt rank. The only reason I can vaguely recall this is that it featured in the B Promotion exam to Flt Lt.

[TLDNMCL]

😕 Pointless, divisive, expensive.
How does any of this sh!t improve, sorry "streamline" anything?
Documentation to be re-written, rank badges to be revised/ redesigned, pay scales to be revised and or amalgamated, which takes us back to documentation.
Met a good pal (ex-RN) yesterday, and of course the expected usual inter- service verbal abuse took place. He works for the MOD at a RAF unit as a civvie now, and he was close to tears, or perhaps a bladder evacuation when we spoke about this.
A nonesense, a total nonsense. 🙄

[downsizer]

Who said the pay scales or rank badges were getting changed.....they aren't.

[langleybaston]

Who gets 2 blades and who gets 3? Is it defined?

[oldmansquipper]

Can those working on the Atlas have one with 8 blades please........

…and how many blades in your badge if you work on turbo fans?

asking for a friend.

[Dan Gerous]

Are our sister services also trashing their traditional rank appelations?

The RAF hasn't been around long enough to have traditions, only habits.;)

[Lyneham Lad]

The RAF hasn't been around long enough to have traditions, only habits.;)

And bad ones at that...

(hat, coat, door...)

[Corporal Clott]

It’s just a name change to stop the very few that getting their knickers in a twist about this sort of stuff (ie. the muttering minority that normally have unofficial RAF Twitter accounts). It is being implemented on 1st July 2022. Basically:

Air Recruit replaces Leading Aircraftman (AC)
Air Specialist (2nd Class) replaces Leading Aircraftman (LAC)
Air Specialist (1st Class) replaces Senior Aircraftman (SAC)
Air Specialist Technician (1st Class) replaces Senior Aircraftman (Technician) (SAC(T))

Not a big deal really. Same pay scales and same insignia. However, I do think they ballsed up the last one. Personally I would have gone for Air Technician and given them a 4 bladed prop badge again - as there is only one Technician rank at that level then there is no need for the 1st Class anyway.

Of course we also have Airborne Specialists now (the common name for the ‘flying Fighter Controllers’, Airborne Technicians, Mission Intelligence Coordinators, non-Aircrew Flight Test Engineers and Cabin Crew) as a term for Ground Branch/Trade/Profession personnel employed on airborne duties or operating an aircraft. So there is room for a bit of confusion - but no more than the aviator thing that goes against the definition in every English dictionary in the world. So 2 steps forward and 2 steps back in my opinion.

[NutLoose]

You could of course be accused to be introducing an inferiority complex as 2nd class can equally be miss understood as inferior to 1st class. Surely Air Specialist One and Two would have made more sense.

[Lima Juliet]

Nutty

I suspect that is what will happen in real life. A bit like Staff Officer 1st Class, 2nd Class and 3rd Class being shortened to SO1, SO2 and SO3 for job titles. It’s the same as AC, LAC and SAC - how often do we use the longer unabbreviated versions? So this will likely be something like AR, AS2, AS1 and AST1. I do agree with Cpl Clott though - that the AST1 is over complicated and AT would have been better and far easier.

[brakedwell]

When is the RAF getting rid of it's aircraft?

[The B Word]

Defence did a long time ago introducing wanque words like ‘air vehicle’ and ‘air system’ instead… :ugh:

[TLDNMCL]

Who said the pay scales or rank badges were getting changed.....they aren't.
I didn't say changed...

[mikemmb]

When is the RAF getting rid of it's aircraft?

Well clearly once the entire RAF budget has been used up on endless name changes, there will be nothing left to spend on aircraft!

….oh hang on, if we have no aircraft, then we will have to change everyone’s name again!

[Timelord]

It does seem slightly perverse that in order not to offend anyone, someone who was a “ leading” person is being renamed a “ second class” person.

[langleybaston]

I remember the introduction of the (I think) 1964 Trade Structure in the RAF, upside down chevrons (?) were abolished

You will know, as any fule no, that "chevron" is indeed point up.
Heraldic.
French rafter.

[Krystal n chips]

Not bad so far...3 pages and 47 posts... albeit unlikely to rival the semantics of the Brevet vs Badge saga...however, can we now expect a major print run to amend " Lawrence of Arabia " ?

[Finningley Boy]

It’s just a name change to stop the very few that getting their knickers in a twist about this sort of stuff (ie. the muttering minority that normally have unofficial RAF Twitter accounts). It is being implemented on 1st July 2022. Basically:

Air Recruit replaces Leading Aircraftman (AC)
Air Specialist (2nd Class) replaces Leading Aircraftman (LAC)
Air Specialist (1st Class) replaces Senior Aircraftman (SAC)
Air Specialist Technician (1st Class) replaces Senior Aircraftman (Technician) (SAC(T))

Not a big deal really. Same pay scales and same insignia. However, I do think they ballsed up the last one. Personally I would have gone for Air Technician and given them a 4 bladed prop badge again - as there is only one Technician rank at that level then there is no need for the 1st Class anyway.

Of course we also have Airborne Specialists now (the common name for the ‘flying Fighter Controllers’, Airborne Technicians, Mission Intelligence Coordinators, non-Aircrew Flight Test Engineers and Cabin Crew) as a term for Ground Branch/Trade/Profession personnel employed on airborne duties or operating an aircraft. So there is room for a bit of confusion - but no more than the aviator thing that goes against the definition in every English dictionary in the world. So 2 steps forward and 2 steps back in my opinion.

You say Basically, is there something about the rank structure, displayed above, which remains uncertain? My understanding is that all these attempts to avoid pronouns etc, if that's what's going on, isn't accommodating the majority, it is in fact pandering to a very small minority who are very noisy and get plenty of media attention.

FB

[NutLoose]

You say Basically, is there something about the rank structure, displayed above, which remains uncertain? My understanding is that all these attempts to avoid pronouns etc, if that's what's going on, isn't accommodating the majority, it is in fact pandering to a very small minority who are very noisy and get plenty of media attention.

FB

Isn't that sadly always the way, from cyclists to the just stop oil protests etc.

[Finningley Boy]

Isn't that sadly always the way, from cyclists to the just stop oil protests etc.
Indeed Sir, one would have thought an Air Chief Marshal and his fellow military chiefs, would be rather more alert to this.

FB

[langleybaston]

Not bad so far...3 pages and 47 posts... albeit unlikely to rival the semantics of the Brevet vs Badge saga...however, can we now expect a major print run to amend " Lawrence of Arabia " ?
The Mint might be more RAF-appropriate.

[NRU74]

You will know, as any fule no, that "chevron" is indeed point up.
Heraldic.
French rafter.

I take your 'point' (French O Level 1959)
Our Crew Chief on Valiants wore a brassard thingie on each arm of his flying suit down the route so that he could pi$$ off Army Officers who thought he was wearing his stripey things upside down !

[langleybaston]

Army stripey things were and are "as the hairs on a monkey's arm" ............. above the elbow, point down, below the elbow point up.

and their warrant officers are, so to speak, pointless.

French O Level Oxford Board 1953. Scrape pass, the master did not want me to spoil his league table, so force-fed me.

[Union Jack]

Indeed Sir, one would have thought an Air Chief Marshal and his fellow military chiefs, would be rather more alert to this.

FB
You mean like their predecessors in 1918 when decisions were being made about officers' proposed ranks on the formation of the Royal Air Force when, according to Wiki, the Royal Navy were not happy about their senior ranks being copied and he Army were not happy about their junior ranks being copied, so:

" This resulted in a second proposed system, which made frequent use of the neologism ardian, which was derived from the Gaelic ard "chief" and eun "bird". Under this proposal the names were to have been: ensign, lieutenant, flight leader, squadron leader, reeve, banneret, fourth ardian, third ardian, second ardian, ardian and air marshal. A further proposal was: ensign, lieutenant, flight-leader, squadron-leader, wing-leader, leader, flight ardian, squadron ardian, wing ardian, ardian, air marshal. However, this system was rejected within the RAF, due in part to dislike of the neologism ardian."

I must confess that I had to look up "neologism" and there are certainly plenty of those around today.:sad:

Jack

[Toadstool]

When is the RAF getting rid of it's aircraft?

I’m flying this week on RAF aircraft. Is it just former RAF personnel who seem to have issues with absolutely everything the RAF does? Beards, ranks, D&I, number of acft on flypasts. The irony being, the RAF has never been so operational since the Cold War days. Yes, shock horror, with beards and braids and …. the horror….

[RotorsTurningRefuel]

I have read the IBN, it really is eroding the rank structure (IMHO). I get that they are trying to make it gender neutral, but that is a farce. And to top it all off there was a survey carried out back in Dec 21, so its from within the ranks who wanted it changed, personally I reckon its just given the Top Brass the ammo to do what they have been after for a while to appease a small minority. They could have done this in a much better way.

[Cornish Jack]

Bound to happen at some point in these repetitive rank/nomenclature outbursts... from many years back -
middle ranking non-Army officer to WRAC major ... "And what do you call your privates ?" ... (apocryphal !)

[langleybaston]

I’m flying this week on RAF aircraft. Is it just former RAF personnel who seem to have issues with absolutely everything the RAF does? Beards, ranks, D&I, number of acft on flypasts. The irony being, the RAF has never been so operational since the Cold War days. Yes, shock horror, with beards and braids and …. the horror….

No, it is not. I am a civilian tax-payer. 4 generations RAF, I missed out [unfit] so did next best thing and joined Met. Office. According to the rules I have a dog in the fight.

[NRU74]

The irony being, the RAF has never been so operational since the Cold War days. Yes, shock horror, with beards and braids and …. the horror….

In the sixties (Tanker Trash) I had a beard, courtesy of a Consultant Dermatologist at RAFH Ely.I usually had no problems apart from once at the Watton Ball I was frogmarched off the dance floor by the Deputy PMC. I did get my own back, though, as I was dancing with the groupie's niece.

[RotorsTurningRefuel]

I’m flying this week on RAF aircraft. Is it just former RAF personnel who seem to have issues with absolutely everything the RAF does? Beards, ranks, D&I, number of acft on flypasts. The irony being, the RAF has never been so operational since the Cold War days. Yes, shock horror, with beards and braids and …. the horror….

No, it is not. I am a civilian tax-payer. 4 generations RAF, I missed out [unfit] so did next best thing and joined Met. Office. According to the rules I have a dog in the fight.


No issues with Beards, ponytails or Tattoo's etc at all. They made up SAC(T) when J/T already existed. Air Specialist (Class 2), to replace LAC. TBH its very Americanised IMHO, I'm sure someone got a promotion or an OBE/MBE for that pile of rubbish that has been written and due implementation on 01 Jul 22.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Is it just former RAF personnel who seem to have issues with absolutely everything the RAF does?

Nope. I'm still serving and I have a problem with all the fiddling whilst Rome burns. IMHO, all of this junk is symptomatic of an organisation that has lost its way.

[BEagle]

Kudos to you, Roly old mate, for continuing to endure all this wiggy woke nonsense! I hope that you're still able to take to the WBY and 'turn your bum to the sun' regularly to escape such bolleaux?

Back when the Specialist Aircrew scheme was first under consideration, people were consulted about whether they should have distinguishing rank insignia etc. When responses such as secret handshakes were suggested, the idea was dropped. Happy faces at the prospect of increased flying pay and no promotion exams, plus many years of flying tours were sufficient indication of status!

[Jobza Guddun]

I have read the IBN, it really is eroding the rank structure (IMHO). I get that they are trying to make it gender neutral, but that is a farce. And to top it all off there was a survey carried out back in Dec 21, so its from within the ranks who wanted it changed, personally I reckon its just given the Top Brass the ammo to do what they have been after for a while to appease a small minority. They could have done this in a much better way.

Be interested in seeing the data from that survey....I work with a lot of people young, middle and "old" (non-commissioned) and there's just so little interest in the subject - let alone a drive to change. There are more important matters in their minds and more than a few are puzzled by the leadership they see.

No Toadstool, it's not just the "ex-"; or the "old"!

[Hoots]

They talk about ethos, this is all getting beyond a joke. When will some senior leadership stand up and stop this nonsense. The priorities appear to be all this woke stuff, I personally don’t care what orientation anyone is as long as they can do the job. They join an organisation with tradition and history ( I know not much compared to the RN and Army). Have we forgotten we are a fighting force, that needs to be properly resourced. I’d much prefer funds wasted on this nonsense to be spent where it makes a positive contribution to capability not one persons crusade to leave their legacy behind. A legacy which has caused more harm than good. Hopefully the next leader will have the courage to return the service to the one we knew, the one that many AC’s, LAC’s and SAC’s made the ultimate sacrifice in service of. I hope personnel are able to be frank during any visits and respectfully expressing their true feelings on this step too far. Maybe then someone may realise the true feelings out there, unless they are totally self serving and are using these changes to promote any future employment.

[Finningley Boy]

They talk about ethos, this is all getting beyond a joke. When will some senior leadership stand up and stop this nonsense. The priorities appear to be all this woke stuff, I personally don’t care what orientation anyone is as long as they can do the job. They join an organisation with tradition and history ( I know not much compared to the RN and Army). Have we forgotten we are a fighting force, that needs to be properly resourced. I’d much prefer funds wasted on this nonsense to be spent where it makes a positive contribution to capability not one persons crusade to leave their legacy behind. A legacy which has caused more harm than good. Hopefully the next leader will have the courage to return the service to the one we knew, the one that many AC’s, LAC’s and SAC’s made the ultimate sacrifice in service of. I hope personnel are able to be frank during any visits and respectfully expressing their true feelings on this step too far. Maybe then someone may realise the true feelings out there, unless they are totally self serving and are using these changes to promote any future employment.
Speaking of which, isn't Wiggie's turn in the Barrel nearly up? I would have thought this July indeed but it doesn't appear so as no nominated successor has been mentioned yet.

FB

[Moglington]

Defence did a long time ago introducing wanque words like ‘air vehicle’ and ‘air system’ instead… :ugh:
Air Vehicle and Air System are useful words to describe 2 different things:
Air Vehicle = The Aircraft (yes they could just use this instead of AV - I agree)
Air System = everything that goes with the AV to support it so the Air System = the AV + Spares, Ground Equipment, Tooling, Training(pilot and engineers), Simulators, manufacturer support for modifications/maintenance scheduling changes etc

we dont just buy an aircraft but an entire air system.
So an F1 analogy:
Air Vehicle = F1 Race Vehicle = the F1 Car
Air System = F1 Racing System = the F1 Car + Pit Crew, spares, pit crew equipment, tooling, training (pit crew and engineers), race Simulator, mods support from manufacturer, transport system to get to races round the world etc.

Its also a useful thing for ministers when asked "why does it cost us £x Bn for only x number of jets" they can say "Well actually we are buying an Air System and that price includes not only the Air Vehicles (aircraft in english) but also the support package for them including spares, all tooling, training and future support for modifications and improvements during the lifetime of the fleet in service blah blah blah etc etc"

[pamac51]

What about the Junior and Chief Technicians working in the Accounts Flights.

[NutLoose]

What gets me is they spent all that money to replace the JT only a scant few years ago, to now spend another load of money to change it all again, and for what, to pander to a minority, monies that would be better spent on patching up some of the failing infrastructure.

Here is a thought.

two stripes is a corporal
three stripes are a Sergeant

So simply make it AC, LAC and SAC as the rank without is being shorthand for anything, meaning SAC is an SAC and the term Senior Air Craftsman wording no longer exists, hence no sex discrimination problems.

Does that make sense, after all if you asked someone his rank they would normally simply say SAC, not Senior Air Craftsman.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Air Vehicle and Air System are useful words to describe 2 different things:
Air Vehicle = The Aircraft (yes they could just use this instead of AV - I agree)
Air System = everything that goes with the AV to support it so the Air System = the AV + Spares, Ground Equipment, Tooling, Training(pilot and engineers), Simulators, manufacturer support for modifications/maintenance scheduling changes etc

we dont just buy an aircraft but an entire air system.
So an F1 analogy:
Air Vehicle = the F1 Car
Air System = the F1 Car + Pit Crew, spares, pit crew equipment, tooling, training (pit crew and engineers), race Simulator, mods support from manufacturer, transport system to get to races round the world etc.

Its also a useful thing for ministers when asked "why does it cost us £x Bn for only x number of jets" they can say "Well actually we are buying an Air System and that price includes not only the Air Vehicles (aircraft in english) but also the support package for them including spares, all tooling, training and future support for modifications and improvements during the lifetime of the fleet in service blah blah blah etc etc"

You work for the MAA, were responsible for this rubbish and I claim my £5.

[Moglington]

You work for the MAA, were responsible for this rubbish and I claim my £5.

Nope just someone who has spent far too long try to tell people its not just the aircraft - we need the whole support system too. And Air Vehicle Vs Air System is a good way to get that concept across to sometime - although the Russians are helpfully making it easier by showing how important the logistics and support functions are - and what happens when you don't have them!

[Compass Call]

Surely the 'Air System' of an 'Air Vehicle' operates the pressurisation and air conditioning and in some cases - engine starting?
Well, it did in my day!:E

[langleybaston]

Air Vehicle and Air System are useful words to describe 2 different things:
Air Vehicle = The Aircraft (yes they could just use this instead of AV - I agree)
Air System = everything that goes with the AV to support it so the Air System = the AV + Spares, Ground Equipment, Tooling, Training(pilot and engineers), Simulators, manufacturer support for modifications/maintenance scheduling changes etc

we dont just buy an aircraft but an entire air system.
So an F1 analogy:
Air Vehicle = F1 Race Vehicle = the F1 Car
Air System = F1 Racing System = the F1 Car + Pit Crew, spares, pit crew equipment, tooling, training (pit crew and engineers), race Simulator, mods support from manufacturer, transport system to get to races round the world etc.

Its also a useful thing for ministers when asked "why does it cost us £x Bn for only x number of jets" they can say "Well actually we are buying an Air System and that price includes not only the Air Vehicles (aircraft in english) but also the support package for them including spares, all tooling, training and future support for modifications and improvements during the lifetime of the fleet in service blah blah blah etc etc"

I think the "air system" has to be the entire RAF plus MoD support organisations such as the Met. Office:
Without ALL the infrastructure every AV would cease to function. Obvious examples are the RAF Regiment [force protection] and Central Band [public image] and the Reds. Perhaps the Air System described in the quote should be the Air Sub-System?

[downsizer]

What gets me is they spent all that money to replace the JT only a scant few years ago

Last JT graduated from Cosford circa 2000.....hardly a scant few years ago!

[Herod]

So, am I a "retired pilot" or a "no-longer economically active Air Vehicle Operator"? I guess even that will offend someone.

[The B Word]

Moglington - nope, they are wanque words and you even said it “aircraft in English”! :ugh:

[Moglington]

Moglington - nope, they are wanque words and you even said it “aircraft in English”! :ugh:
now I’ll grant you Aircraft could substitute for air vehicle. However it could not substitute for Air System which is not a ‘wanque word’ but a specific bit of terminology describing something that is more than just an aircraft but is in fact and aircraft and all its assorted support equipment.
Sometimes the air vehicle is useless on its own, particularly when it doesn’t have a cockpit. Reaper would be useless if we didn’t buy the ground control stations to actually operate it. You don’t buy a child a toy remote control aircraft without the remote control.

Even for those with a cockpit the ground systems are just as essential. We don’t just buy x number of F35 aircraft, we actually buy the F35 air system. So we have the bespoke mission planning software for pilots to plan missions for loading into the jet. We buy the bespoke maintenance software so engineers can record and schedule maintenance. We buy the diagnostic software so they can plug into the jet to run tests and read error codes. We buy the specialist tooling so the engineers can maintain the stealthy skin of the jet. And that’s just the front end squadron stuff. We are also buying into the manufacturer monitoring the trending of parts across the entire fleet and developing mods and improvements to faults discovered as the aircraft rack up the flying hours.
That is the difference between buying an air vehicle (or aircraft if you prefer) and an air system.

[NutLoose]

Just keep the acronym as thee rank and ditch the meaning. Simples.

[LateArmLive]

As always, it's refreshing to note that those still serving just get on with it as usual, whilst the retired keyboard Cold-Warriors bleat on about "wokeism" etc on the internet. If you're that offended by something that doesn't apply to you, may I suggest you contact the Daily Mail - they'd love to hear from you...

[langleybaston]

As always, it's refreshing to note that those still serving just get on with it as usual, whilst the retired keyboard Cold-Warriors bleat on about "wokeism" etc on the internet. If you're that offended by something that doesn't apply to you, may I suggest you contact the Daily Mail - they'd love to hear from you...

You missed the reservations of those serving.

[cheekychimp]

You missed the reservations of those serving.
Yes, but we can't complain or the internet police will find out who we really are and we'll have to report for mind cleansing, sorry I meant further D&I malarkey.

[Timelord]

Of course the front line just get on with it despite the actions of those at the top. It might be nice though if, every so often, the actions of those at the top actually helped the front line just get on with it.

TL (retired but daily contact with front line person)

[Hoots]

It would be wrong to assume that everyone here with an opinion is retired.

[The B Word]

Moglington - so aircraft it is, and the rest we’ll just call “niff-naff and trivia” :E

[Tankertrashnav]

So simply make it AC, LAC and SAC as the rank without is being shorthand for anything, meaning SAC is an SAC and the term Senior Air Craftsman wording no longer exists, hence no sex discrimination problems.

I was shopping in Tesco and saw a female naval rating in the store. She was badged as a Leading Seaman and it occurred to me that in days of the WRNS she would have been a Leading Wren. I asked her what the modern term was and she told me she was a Leading Hand ( as were her male counterparts ) which seemed to me to be an eminently sensible solution to the problem.

By the way, Nutloose, it's Senior Aircraftman (sans 's'), as I'm sure you knew ;)

[charliegolf]

TTN! Long time no read!:ok:

CG

[Jobza Guddun]

TTN! Long time no read!:ok:

CG

Seconded. Good to see you back TTN.

[charliegolf]

I was enlisted as NCA (airman aircrew in old money), and as my paperwork shows, I was never an aircraftman. I was an 'aircrew cadet'. A/Cdt on my 1250.

CG

[Toadstool]

Of course the front line just get on with it despite the actions of those at the top. It might be nice though if, every so often, the actions of those at the top actually helped the front line just get on with it.

TL (retired but daily contact with front line person)

Yep. I guess there are some who feel really strong about it. We chatted about it in the crew room the other day and, as long as we are doing the job that we love, get paid for it and everyone feels part of that team, it really isn’t that big of an issue.

Of course we “pander” to the minority; as a white middle aged male, I’ve never been prejudiced against but I know many who have been. If this helps them, so be it.

[Nil_Drift]

The blinkered enthusiasm of Moglington shows a career-minded individual who believes there is a chance to move up the Officer rank structure if the right words are spoken. The reality is that support for aircraft is not what it should be in what are known as DLODs = Defence Lines of Development. DLODs are sub-divided into TEPIDOIL = Training; Equipment; Personnel; Infrastructure; Doctrine; Organisation; Information; Logistics. Presentationally, the likes of Moglington want all of these elements to be GREEN on the inevitable PowerPoint slide. We all know on PRuNE that GREEN was the ultimate colour [I know about Master Green] but, like the RAF Fitness Test, BLUE has been introduced as better than GREEN. However, most still see GREEN as being meeting the standard and the standard has quietly shifted so GREEN is really YELLOW.

Training and Personnel relies on people; Equipment, Infrastructure and Logistics relies on money. Information needs both. If you have not enough of either people or money, change the Doctrine and the Organisation. What is happening, and has been commented on very candidly by both serving and former serving personnel, is the latter two points of the DLOD. Standing up 'ghost squadrons' on dilapidated airfields where too many aircraft are being co-located, with Head of Establishment posts as non-aviation Stn Cdrs to allow the gender balance to manifest itself, and changing the junior rank structure to apparently appeal to tomorrow's recruits, is all smoke and mirrors to disguise the shocking state of the other 6 DLODs.

When a fully-costed programme is handed over with the statement "You have to save £x billions" and "No, you cannot have anyone recruited to fill the JPANs", the Air System as defined by Moglington is destined to crash and burn.

"Titanic" and "deck chairs" comes to mind.

[Lomon]

What pisses me off is they bleat on about budgets but this crap will cost a fortune, just as the JT changes did, all literature will need to be changed etc for what?

Just think of MODNet roles for a start? all those jobs called blah-blah SAC1, SAC2 etc in all the different sections cost about £12 a time to change! There are going to be thousands of them as well.

[The Oberon]

Drifting but I am confused about what has happened to NCO ranks over the past years.
I should say that I in no way want to denigrate those currently serving or the ranks they hold but I would appreciate an explanation from someone still serving.
I left having completed 22 in 1986. In the aircraft trades it was the norm for someone, providing he had the right numbers and had passed the promotion exams, to reach Chf/Tech at around about 30 - 32 years old. This was based on time promotion which stopped about 2 years before I was due my Chief. As a result I was 2 years late in getting promoted, 34. The idea of a Tech.Cpl in his early to mid 30s. was practically unheard of. He would probably have gone at the 12 year point with no opportunity to sign on beyond that. What has changed?

[NutLoose]

The main question is does changing aircraft to air system and rank names etc increase the productivity or capability of the RAF, and the answer to that has to be no.

So why firke around with the names and ranks simply to be pc and be seen to be using corporate speak, while wasting precious parts of the budget that could be used elsewhere.

That’s what’s seriously wrong with it all.

[Melchett01]

I have read the IBN, it really is eroding the rank structure (IMHO). I get that they are trying to make it gender neutral, but that is a farce. And to top it all off there was a survey carried out back in Dec 21, so its from within the ranks who wanted it changed, personally I reckon its just given the Top Brass the ammo to do what they have been after for a while to appease a small minority. They could have done this in a much better way.

Gender neutral? Best get rid of Aviator then. And what about woman and female? Are we getting rid of those terms too?

It will all be so much easier when we all catch up with Manning - or whatever they are called this week. After all we’ve only ever been numbers on a spreadsheet as far as they are concerned; that’s about as gender neutral as you can get.

‘We’re not happy till you’re not happy’. Our new motto?

[langleybaston]

Or "we flap but don't fly".
Icon: a penguim.

[Krystal n chips]

Drifting but I am confused about what has happened to NCO ranks over the past years.
I should say that I in no way want to denigrate those currently serving or the ranks they hold but I would appreciate an explanation from someone still serving.
I left having completed 22 in 1986. In the aircraft trades it was the norm for someone, providing he had the right numbers and had passed the promotion exams, to reach Chf/Tech at around about 30 - 32 years old. This was based on time promotion which stopped about 2 years before I was due my Chief. As a result I was 2 years late in getting promoted, 34. The idea of a Tech.Cpl in his early to mid 30s. was practically unheard of. He would probably have gone at the 12 year point with no opportunity to sign on beyond that. What has changed?

Your confusion is understandable.

I'm not serving, but, I can comment accordingly from recent direct exposure to those who are. .

The "numbers game " as you accurately define it began, as I'm sure you are aware in the late 70's , and thereafter gathered momentum to the extent people were getting "Spec Reps " and high scores almost as a matter of course, just to stay in the promotion bracket.

For new arrivals, the first bit is straightforward... AMM > first short tour as S.A.C, back for Techs course, then S.A.C Tech. Thereafter comes the problems.

Today, technical ability is but one element. To progress to Cpl requires a leadership course, same for Sgt. However, also factored in are the secondary duties, even tertiary at times, the range of which can be extensive and not simply directly related to work. Social / leisure pursuits also have a distinct bearing along with fitness levels.

The rank of Cpl was being promoted even when I was in as the aspirational rank and no further for many to achieve

.Never forgotten the Flt.Lt from Innsworth at the time who came to Bruggen to give us an "inspirational talk " on this...the front rows were occupied by the non tech trades...much in favour. The rear by engineers. I don't think he'd ever encountered engineers before.... giving vent to their feelings and sentiments.

One of the reasons many of us left, was, this wasn't part of the T's and C's when we joined. There's also the fact, as you know, and has often been commented on, that, overall the R.A.F have quietly reduced the levels of benefits over time. That, and there is no longer an expectation for people to serve any more than 12 years, some leave before, given few see it as lifetime career, unlike the past, and more an entry on the CV to enable them to continue a career elsewhere to gain a broader spectrum of experience and often in different sectors to aviation.

Those who remain and who have engaged for 22 yrs become "trapped " in one sense because the next step from Cpl to Sgt can prove very difficult, unless, as I say, they demonstrate not only the technical ability, but also the commitment to the other aspects I've mentioned.

[NutLoose]

Going back to the seventies stroke eighties there wasn’t a corporals leadership course until I believe late on into the eighties.

Progression was from SAC onto JT due to assessments numbers, the odd thing being if you served in Germany you got an extra point.

Cpl was on average 4 years on.

During the late eighties they then introduced a time limit to reach Cpl or you would not be allowed to sign on, which a lot of people fell foul off due to the simple fact they had done tours abroad and during those years you couldn’t be sent on JT courses.

So in effect it then made it nine years to Cpl and I knew one poor bugger that had done two overseas tours.
so LAC to SAC one year, SAC to JT three to four years and four to Cpl possibly could be done in nine, but having served 6 years abroad he would have had to do it in SIX! Which stunk.

The other disadvantages was the RAF lost long serving and experienced people in each rank, I knew a JT who was in for twenty two in the rank who was invaluable in teaching younger JT’s.

[Nil_Drift]

Going back to the seventies stroke eighties there wasn’t a corporals leadership course until I believe late on into the eighties.

I did my JT to Cpl leadership course at Hereford in 1984. It was an established two week course focussed on various administrative matters including how to fill out a F252 - the infamous charge sheet - and the sequence of the Orderly Room. This was the generic course for any trade. It immediately lost credibility in my eyes as the first test was the basic fitness test, then being the 1 1/2 mile run. We were told very clearly that anyone who failed would be removed from the course. There was a fat chef in his white top and chequered trousers who fell out puffing and wheezing just trying to line up with the rest of us ... but he still got his promotion. That was the time to get the message out loud and clear that standards were exactly that and anyone failing to achieve the standard would not graduate. Unfortunately, I observed this approach later at Cranwell on IOT when, after verbal bluff and bluster, people who had struggled for the whole 18 weeks [as it was then] still graduated.

After Hereford, we Techies went to Scampton for Trade Management Training which was orientated around line teams, overseeing aircraft engine starts and marshalling using Hunters [including Avpin starts with the asbestos glove] then learning all the F700 documentation and responsibility for supervision and over-signatures. I felt that it gave me a thorough grounding in my management competency and accredited me with a significant amount of responsibility much quicker than would have been expected in a civilian equivalent employment.

During Gulf War 1 when I had been aircrew for a few years, one of the Cpl Techies on deployment was a former fellow student at Cosford. There was no prospect of promotion in TG2 (Avionics) and he was about to leave the Service having been a Cpl for 7 years.

[NutLoose]

After Hereford, we Techies went to Scampton for Trade Management Training which was orientated around line teams, overseeing aircraft engine starts and marshalling using Hunters [including Avpin starts with the asbestos glove] then learning all the F700 documentation and responsibility for supervision and over-signatures. I felt that it gave me a thorough grounding in my management competency and accredited me with a significant amount of responsibility much quicker than would have been expected in a civilian equivalent employment.

I used to do most of that as a JT, indeed the only person out on an engine run would be me in the cockpit and a bod on the extension lead outside.
Civilian qualifications as an LAE includes runs, and taxiing etc, I also do items that would probably be a Wing Commander and above.

[Rigga]

In the 70’s and up to 1980 ‘we’ had Promotion exams.
From LAC to SAC for rigga’s you had to pass Hangar familiarisation, some classroom maths and a sort of H&S practical and a trade test…a bit of metal bashing.
From SAC we had to pass the “Science ‘B’” (a self-study maths and physics programme) to qualify for fitter’s course selection…and assessments of course.
From JT to Cpl we had to pass “Prom-Ex 2” which entailed studying sections of MAFL and ADMIN books with allocated SNCO’s as our guides and mentor’s …and assessments again, of course.

Time Promotion was ended in 1982, the year before my time to Cpl, and I was on Duty Airman in Laarbruch’s Guardroom on the day I should have been promoted - However, I did get my tapes a few months later.

Yes, Civilian Rigga’s life: As an LAE I taxied an ATR72, backing it out of one slot and over to a new slot in Jersey Airport…a bit unnerving the first time. I haven’t bent a spanner for a few years now and I’ve allowed my licence to expire for this last year of ‘enjoyment’.

[RAF_Techie101]

Drifting but I am confused about what has happened to NCO ranks over the past years.
I should say that I in no way want to denigrate those currently serving or the ranks they hold but I would appreciate an explanation from someone still serving.
I left having completed 22 in 1986. In the aircraft trades it was the norm for someone, providing he had the right numbers and had passed the promotion exams, to reach Chf/Tech at around about 30 - 32 years old. This was based on time promotion which stopped about 2 years before I was due my Chief. As a result I was 2 years late in getting promoted, 34. The idea of a Tech.Cpl in his early to mid 30s. was practically unheard of. He would probably have gone at the 12 year point with no opportunity to sign on beyond that. What has changed?

Times have changed massively. The Air Force no longer has time promotion above Flt Lt and SAC, and it’s all done on merit (medical and dental branches might be a bit different)

There are no promotion exams, just courses to be taken once you’ve come off the board which sits every year. You are pre-boarded into A B and C grades, and then the board themselves look at all the A grades and a percentage of the B’s. They look at your last 3 annual assessments and order everyone depending on what they’re looking for, and then the number that are required are offered promotion. If you’re number 71 and they only need 70, then you’re out of luck unless someone turns it down.

I joined in 2000, and was just outside of the board after 8 years or so for promotion to Cpl. This is the average sort of time you’d expect, so people get it sooner if they do all the outside work, secondary duties, charities etc, and some take longer. I was posted the next year, my assessment went down as I was on a new aircraft and didn’t have the confidence to act like an NCO, so that reset me to needing another 3 good assessments. The RAF signed me on to 15 years due to needing manpower (JT’s were singed on to 22 at one point) and eventually after 14 years I came off the board again. This allowed me to sign on to 22 years (AFPS75 pensionable point) and gave me 7 years or so to make Sgt. This would be needed to sign on to 30 years if I wanted it.

5 years later and I took a place doing my civilian licenses which would send me out to industry for 2 years, and also end any chances of promotion for at least another 3 years after that but I’d get a qualification which would easily earn way more money than the RAF could ever pay me, but came with a 3 year return of service.

The point of all that was to say that when I leave the RAF after 25 years service, I’ll still be a Cpl because the promotion system requires a lot of game playing and box ticking, and there isn’t an option similar to PA Spine/Specialist Aircrew for us. My board just sat as it happens, and a total of 50 people were promoted I think, from a pool of about 700.

[Fitter2]

In the 60s time promotion worked, and you could be a 25 year old Sergeant (I was) if your annual assessments didn't delay promotion, and you actually read the bits of paper needed to pass the promotion papers. Those around and under me were mostly motivated and competent. There were exceptions :rolleyes:

[The Oberon]

Times have changed massively. The Air Force no longer has time promotion above Flt Lt and SAC, and it’s all done on merit (medical and dental branches might be a bit different)

There are no promotion exams, just courses to be taken once you’ve come off the board which sits every year. You are pre-boarded into A B and C grades, and then the board themselves look at all the A grades and a percentage of the B’s. They look at your last 3 annual assessments and order everyone depending on what they’re looking for, and then the number that are required are offered promotion. If you’re number 71 and they only need 70, then you’re out of luck unless someone turns it down.

I joined in 2000, and was just outside of the board after 8 years or so for promotion to Cpl. This is the average sort of time you’d expect, so people get it sooner if they do all the outside work, secondary duties, charities etc, and some take longer. I was posted the next year, my assessment went down as I was on a new aircraft and didn’t have the confidence to act like an NCO, so that reset me to needing another 3 good assessments. The RAF signed me on to 15 years due to needing manpower (JT’s were singed on to 22 at one point) and eventually after 14 years I came off the board again. This allowed me to sign on to 22 years (AFPS75 pensionable point) and gave me 7 years or so to make Sgt. This would be needed to sign on to 30 years if I wanted it.

5 years later and I took a place doing my civilian licenses which would send me out to industry for 2 years, and also end any chances of promotion for at least another 3 years after that but I’d get a qualification which would easily earn way more money than the RAF could ever pay me, but came with a 3 year return of service.

The point of all that was to say that when I leave the RAF after 25 years service, I’ll still be a Cpl because the promotion system requires a lot of game playing and box ticking, and there isn’t an option similar to PA Spine/Specialist Aircrew for us. My board just sat as it happens, and a total of 50 people were promoted I think, from a pool of about 700.


Well all I can say is that I am glad I went when I did. I was a SGT. at 25 and a Chief at 34 and I had been allowed to sign on for a further 7 years beyond my 22 which, in those days, meant that I was in line " for me crown". I had also been asked if I would like to consider a Branch Commission. I decided I'd had enough and PVRd at my 22 point. Within 12 months my salary had doubled, I had complete autonomy and I didn't have to look after and guide SAC Bloggs who had overspent on his credit card for the third time.

[RAF_Techie101]

Well all I can say is that I am glad I went when I did. I was a SGT. at 25 and a Chief at 34 and I had been allowed to sign on for a further 7 years beyond my 22 which, in those days, meant that I was in line " for me crown". I had also been asked if I would like to consider a Branch Commission. I decided I'd had enough and PVRd at my 22 point. Within 12 months my salary had doubled, I had complete autonomy and I didn't have to look after and guide SAC Bloggs who had overspent on his credit card for the third time.

Its not that unusual either - there were three of us on my license course who are all 40 this year, Cpl, no chance of promotion and approaching our 22. With the new pension not being in the same league as the 75 scheme, it’s hard to see what would keep a lot of people in to be honest.

[MPN11]

I Unfortunately, I observed this approach later at Cranwell on IOT when, after verbal bluff and bluster, people who had struggled for the whole 18 weeks [as it was then] still graduated.

Tne OH was a flt cdr at The Towers in the early 80s. She found it blisteringly difficult to bin seriously unsuitable Officer Cadets… the ‘System’ preferred re-C oursing. However, she justified her nickname of “Snakebite” … swift and deadly. 😎

BTW, she was surprisingly popular with the majority!

[Haraka]

Reading above, RAF Techie101 remarks about "the RAF no longer having time promotion above Flt.Lt."

Did it ever?

[MPN11]

Reading above, RAF Techie101 remarks about "the RAF no longer having time promotion above Flt.Lt."

Did it ever?
Didn’t Spec Aircrew have that at one stage? Otherwise, always via Promotion Boards for sqn ldr and beyond.

[BEagle]

Didn’t Spec Aircrew have that at one stage?

I don't think so. It took 3 consecutive Spec Recs before I was grudgingly promoted to Sqn Ldr Spec Aircrew. But when I was, the pay rate system meant that I had several years more seniority in the rank than either Flight Commander. Not that I made a point of it.....

....much!

[RAF_Techie101]

Reading above, RAF Techie101 remarks about "the RAF no longer having time promotion above Flt.Lt."

Did it ever?

Possibly poor grammar on my part there - it was more a comment on time promotion being applicable below those ranks still, just not above them.

[NutLoose]

Tne OH was a flt cdr at The Towers in the early 80s. She found it blisteringly difficult to bin seriously unsuitable Officer Cadets… the ‘System’ preferred re-C oursing. However, she justified her nickname of “Snakebite” … swift and deadly. 😎

BTW, she was surprisingly popular with the majority!

Judging by one engineering officer we had it does not surprise me, he was eventually kicked downhill from first line to a bay wallah and even there managed to project his sheer incompetence. Clever chap apparently, was doing his MA last I saw of him, but he had the leadership skills of a lemming.

[snapper41]

It passed me by, but I see that, back in July, the RAF renamed LAC and SAC as Air Specialist Class 2 or 1 respectively. What utter nonsense, and presumably done to rid the world of those horrible terms ‘aircraftman’ and ‘aircraftwoman’ that so offended no one, ever. More Wigston wokery…

[cheekychimp]

None of the ex SACs on my Sqn give a monkey's about it, nothing has changed for the worse. I actually think 'Air Specialist' better describes the function of someone who supports the delivery of Air Power, in all its forms, than 'Aircraftsman'.

[langleybaston]

It passed me by, but I see that, back in July, the RAF renamed LAC and SAC as Air Specialist Class 2 or 1 respectively. What utter nonsense, and presumably done to rid the world of those horrible terms ‘aircraftman’ and ‘aircraftwoman’ that so offended no one, ever. More Wigston wokery…
Re the Regimemt will a Rock be an AS2 (Gunner) or what, please?

[cheekychimp]

Re the Regimemt will a Rock be an AS2 (Gunner) or what, please?
Yes the ranks are AS1 and 2, but we are still Gunners.

[LateArmLive]

Oh the drama, won't someone please think of all the retired dinosaurs getting upset by this...

[snapper41]

Maybe they should have gone for this?

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/468x500/95c52524_9953_4b33_906f_8cdd35e7e659_d2c07a76cd348d963fa4864 d8ea2b63744befaf3.jpeg

[Timelord]

Yes the ranks are AS1 and 2, but we are still Gunners.


“Aviators” surely!

[dead_pan]

It passed me by, but I see that, back in July, the RAF renamed LAC and SAC as Air Specialist Class 2 or 1 respectively. What utter nonsense, and presumably done to rid the world of those horrible terms ‘aircraftman’ and ‘aircraftwoman’ that so offended no one, ever. More Wigston wokery…

Epic anti-woke wokery! Getting upset about something like this!

I'm guessing you're 'ex' so honestly, what is it to you? Let go FFS.

[cheekychimp]

“Aviators” surely!
I'll bite. Aviator is for everyone in the RAF, Gunner is still just for the RAF Regiment. Just as before, you would speak of RAF Regiment Gunners not RAF Regiment Airmen, it's still RAF Regiment Gunners not RAF Regiment Aviators. Even though we're all Aviators in the RAF :-)

[Mogwi]

Epic anti-woke wokery! Getting upset about something like this!

I'm guessing you're 'ex' so honestly, what is it to you? Let go FFS.

Keep it civil.

Mog

[Background Noise]

It passed me by, but I see that, back in July, the RAF renamed LAC and SAC as Air Specialist Class 2 or 1 respectively. What utter nonsense, and presumably done to rid the world of those horrible terms ‘aircraftman’ and ‘aircraftwoman’ that so offended no one, ever. More Wigston wokery…

A lot more here should you want to trawl through it: https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/647064-no-more-acs-lacs-sacs.html

[Union Jack]

It passed me by, but I see that, back in July, the RAF renamed LAC and SAC as Air Specialist Class 2 or 1 respectively. What utter nonsense, and presumably done to rid the world of those horrible terms ‘aircraftman’ and ‘aircraftwoman’ that so offended no one, ever. More Wigston wokery…

How very American....:rolleyes:

Jack

[langleybaston]

Oh the drama, won't someone please think of all the retired dinosaurs getting upset by this...

Not upset, just want to know what my serving family member is to be called.

[MENELAUS]

Not upset, just want to know what my serving family member is to be called.

Do they still get to wear their Battle of Gatwick medals ?

[downsizer]

Not upset, just want to know what my serving family member is to be called.

Ask her!

Do you ask the internet everything in life?

[Timelord]

I'll bite. Aviator is for everyone in the RAF, Gunner is still just for the RAF Regiment. Just as before, you would speak of RAF Regiment Gunners not RAF Regiment Airmen, it's still RAF Regiment Gunners not RAF Regiment Aviators. Even though we're all Aviators in the RAF :-)

I know, I know just winding up the Rocks!

Actually, out of everything going on at the moment this bothers me least. My dad was an AC1 and AC2 during the war so AS1 and 2 is not that revolutionary. “Aviators” on the other hand……

[Compass Call]

LAC/SAC & LACWSACW are gender correct terms. Since there are only two genders in the human race, ie. the gender you were born with.
Human beings are not like some fish, amphibians and some other animals who can change gender at will.
We are born male or female and cannot change. No matter what some will tell you!

[Ninthace]

LAC/SAC & LACWSACW are gender correct terms. Since there are only two genders in the human race, ie. the gender you were born with.
Human beings are not like some fish, amphibians and some other animals who can change gender at will.
We are born male or female and cannot change. No matter what some will tell you!
It takes a bit more intervention but it can be done.

[DaveReidUK]

LAC/SAC & LACWSACW are gender correct terms. Since there are only two genders in the human race, ie. the gender you were born with.
Human beings are not like some fish, amphibians and some other animals who can change gender at will.
We are born male or female and cannot change. No matter what some will tell you!

Presumably the argument is that your gender (whether male or female, and whether or not the one you were born with) is entirely irrelevant and therefore does not need to be reflected in your rank designation.

Would you not agree?

[Asturias56]

The language changes all the time - no point in getting all upset about it.

[NutLoose]

Presumably the argument is that your gender (whether male or female, and whether or not the one you were born with) is entirely irrelevant and therefore does not need to be reflected in your rank designation.

Would you not agree?

Then you could have SACW Acting and SAC acting, for those that are in between.

or SACM and SACF for male and female and SACT for transitioning etc. with (T) to signify technical. So that would be Senior Aircrafts Man and Senior Aircrafts Female
The other would have been to simply drop the terms Senior Aircraftsman and simply change the designation to SAC without it being short for or meaning anything else.

But we have been over this before.

[langleybaston]

Ask her!

Do you ask the internet everything in life?

Too dangerous asking a Rock: she would say "I are a Rock, innit!"

[Two's in]

Good God man! As soon as I've done up my puttees and drawn out the Mess Webley, I'll be dashing off a signal to the chaps at Bentley Priory and stop this malarkey in its tracks.

[Wensleydale]

A question then...what is the correct term for addressing a female SWO? (Waddington have recently appointed one). I wouldn't want to call her "Mister", and Mrs doesn't sound right. Is it now Ms (mzz)?

[Compass Call]

Ma'am

[iRaven]

The funny thing about gender is prior to death there are Woman, Man, Non-Binary, Gender Queer, Gender Fluid, Transgender. However, after a serious accident, and there are a clatter of bits to identify, they only find Men and Women! :8

Surely, some mishtake… :cool:

[Wensleydale]

Ma'am

Other ranks perhaps, but what would an officer call the SWO? It was Mr so-and-so for a male SWO - I wonder what it is for a female SWO?

[langleybaston]

Shades of Officer Harvey!

However, the question is a bloody good one ............... the army must have solved it surely?

[And dare I wonder if female SWOs in general self-identify as something or other or other]

Nice to know that my hypothesis is correct: I am the only sane person around, and I might just be a figment of someone's imagination.

[Jobza Guddun]

Other ranks perhaps, but what would an officer call the SWO? It was Mr so-and-so for a male SWO - I wonder what it is for a female SWO?

Whatever she's put in her signature block!

[mad_collie]

Presumably the argument is that your gender (whether male or female, and whether or not the one you were born with) is entirely irrelevant and therefore does not need to be reflected in your rank designation.

Would you not agree?
Gender is irrelevant until you book your fitness test.

[cheekychimp]

Gender is irrelevant until you book your fitness test.
I was thinking the same 2 weeks ago when I was running to the bleeps, I'm 53 and have to get to the same level as a 19 year old female! The PTI said there are a lot of rumours of the test going gender free next year.

[The Oberon]

Shades of Officer Harvey!

However, the question is a bloody good one ............... the army must have solved it surely?

[And dare I wonder if female SWOs in general self-identify as something or other or other]

Nice to know that my hypothesis is correct: I am the only sane person around, and I might just be a figment of someone's imagination.

Asked the question over on ARRSE and apart from the "get the kettle on, standard NATO" and worse remarks it seems that "Good morning, RSM" and sometimes Mrs. **** is used. Still no nearer to what the RAF will use.

[vascodegama]

Some years ago we has a lady SWO at BZN. It never occurred to me to call her anything other that Mrs ....

cc-it is about time

[Toadstool]

I was thinking the same 2 weeks ago when I was running to the bleeps, I'm 53 and have to get to the same level as a 19 year old female! The PTI said there are a lot of rumours of the test going gender free next year.

I hope you did light or dark blue. Anything less is not leading by example 😬

If that is indeed the case, I’d have the male test reduced slightly and the female one increased. In respect of inclusivity. As long as standards of fitness are not decreased.

[The Nip]

Some years ago we has a lady SWO at BZN. It never occurred to me to call her anything other that Mrs ....

cc-it is about time

She was a lovely lady. My wife is either called by her first name or Mrs. it never presents a problem. Life goes on.

[Wander00]

Presumably ‘Marshal’....

[Compass Call]

My aunt was a WO at, I believe, RAF Wyton. According to my uncle, she was always referred to and addressed as Ma'am Salt.
He was a WO as well and even after he married her always referred to her as Ma'am.
Mind you, we were always polite in those days!!

Richard

[downsizer]

Other ranks perhaps, but what would an officer call the SWO? It was Mr so-and-so for a male SWO - I wonder what it is for a female SWO?

I'm sure some of these WOs could tell you if it's really such a drama.....?

https://twitter.com/CSEL_NATOAIRCOM

https://twitter.com/WO_3MCS

https://twitter.com/SimRezazadeh

https://twitter.com/EmmaKerslake74

[langleybaston]

There remains, I believe, the problem of newly arrived officer addressing female SWO ............ clearly not Mr, and she might be Mrs, Miss or that horrible Ms.

Furthermore, please enlighten this ignorant ancient civilian: what is a signature block? I have mental blocks, writer's blocks and blocks knocked off, but ..........?

[downsizer]

Furthermore, please enlighten this ignorant ancient civilian: what is a signature block? I have mental blocks, writer's blocks and blocks knocked off, but ..........?

Oh my god. ----->>>>> https://gprivate.com/614on

[langleybaston]

Oh my god. ----->>>>> https://gprivate.com/614on

Thank you: I thought it best to get an answe which wasr RAF-orientated as the phrase was used in an RAF context. I still have no idea what a female SWO's signature block would look like, but thank you for the time and effort.

[BATCO]

....I still have no idea what a female SWO's signature block would look like...

LB

I couldn't differentiate between a female SWO's signature block and that of a male SWO. But, I guess it could look something like this (on a loose minute):

L Baston
Warrant Officer
SWO
Ext 7374
Email: [email protected]


Regards
Batco

[langleybaston]

LB

I couldn't differentiate between a female SWO's signature block and that of a male SWO. But, I guess it could look something like this (on a loose minute):

L Baston
Warrant Officer
SWO
Ext 7374
Email: [email protected]


Regards
Batco
Thank you..
More less a standard sequence I suppose

[Jobza Guddun]

For the sake of those who are outside of the RAF and probably miss the subtle humour of my "signature block" comment;

Many WOs state in their email signature block what they wish the Officer cadre to address them as - Mr X / Mrs X / Ms X.

In other news, back on thread I'm yet to meet an AS2/AS1 who celebrates the re-branding of their rank! Still finding that "I didn't ask for this" viewpoint.

[Tocsin]

Thank you..
More less a standard sequence I suppose

Surely nowadays there is an added '(he/him)' ;)

[ZH875]

Surely nowadays there is an added '(he/him)' ;)
and probably 'Banana/Coconut' as well

[Tankertrashnav]

None of the ex SACs on my Sqn give a monkey's about it, nothing has changed for the worse. I actually think 'Air Specialist' better describes the function of someone who supports the delivery of Air Power, in all its forms, than 'Aircraftsman'.

One good thing about the new ranks is that they will finally put an end to the rank of aircraftman (leading or senior) being incorrectly referred to as aircraftsman, which I suspect has been going on since the rank was first created around a century ago.

[cheekychimp]

One good thing about the new ranks is that they will finally put an end to the rank of aircraftman (leading or senior) being incorrectly referred to as aircraftsman, which I suspect has been going on since the rank was first created around a century ago.
How strange, but you are quite correct, in all my time in the RAF I've only ever heard it with the 's' being pronounced. Every day's a school day.

[Wensleydale]

Sadly, my old spell checker frequently tried to change the rank in my signature block to Fat Lt........

[langleybaston]

How strange, but you are quite correct, in all my time in the RAF I've only ever heard it with the 's' being pronounced. Every day's a school day.
yes, my dad 1939 to 45 always said leading aircraftsman ...... he was i/c a barrage baloon in that rank ...... how times change

[MPN11]

yes, my dad 1939 to 45 always said leading aircraftsman ...... he was i/c a barrage baloon in that rank ...... how times change
Unit commanded by Flt Lt A Blimp, presumably?

[langleybaston]

Unit commanded by Flt Lt A Blimp, presumably?

The Balloon organisation was, as far as I can gather, a little odd. First, it was part of Fighter Command [open to correction, as always]. Secondly they were deployed in small batches, such as Suez Canal mobile ship assets ....... dad would plonk his balloon on a ship at one end, have a cruise to the other, move the balloon to a returning ship and so on. And for outings like D Day, his balloon was lashed to a destroyer or whatever. The chain of command relied on a lot of decent blokes a long way from much brass, doing a boring but worthwhile task. [Coventry in the Blitz failed to bore him]. I think he only saw officers for Pay Parade or jankers. He wore a Good Conduct badge by the end of the war so not a lot of jankers.

[MPN11]

LB … many small parts make the whole thing work. Even those without Brevets/Badges were and are still essential!