QF Juggernaut

[Jet Jockey]

Hold Steady” in a Volatile Industrial Relations Environment



Over the pandemic we have witnessed a ruthless approach from many aviation companies. For example, Qantas has unlawfully sacked its baggage handlers, forced the entirety of the long-haul cabin crew onto a B-scale (under the threat of terminating their agreement) and continue to resist efforts by Express Freighters Australia pilots to get a new agreement which simply meets the Air Pilot Award 2020.



In addition to seeking foreign crew, over the pandemic Alliance Airlines (Alliance) also tried to secretly push through a below-Award agreement on the E190, have denied career progression to their own F100 pilots and even apply training bonds to E190 pilots who join the company already type-rated on the E190.



Regional Express (Rex) has also recently taken a concerning approach to the renegotiation of the Saab agreement and the new B737 agreement despite the reasonable offers and measured approach of the AFAP Rex negotiating team.



Qantas has recently announced a strong profit forecast ($450-$550 million for the second half of the current financial year) and a large and ambitious fleet replacement program. Qantas bought National Jet Systems (NJS) at the start of the pandemic and recently announced plans to buy Alliance.



Just as it appears that the worst of the pandemic is over, some aviation companies are desperately trying to extract the final cost savings while their perceived window of opportunity remains open.



Qantas is currently taking an extremely hard-line approach to its industrial relations. At present Qantas is asking its short haul pilots and the NJS pilots to give away hard-earned conditions in exchange for no wage increases. The threat is that it will provide the incoming aircraft (in this case A321-XLRs and A220s) to another group.



Qantas is also fiercely prosecuting their latest group wages policy (amended over the pandemic) of a two-year wage freeze followed by 2% annual increases. This is in the face of 5.1% inflation and before a possible change of government. Alliance and Rex are taking similarly hard-line approaches, demanding concessions and/or threatening job security. These approaches are opportunistic and will not be sustainable post-pandemic, especially as the demand for experienced pilots increases.



We urge all members to think carefully before giving away hard-earned conditions. Once lost, these conditions can be extremely difficult to regain. There can of course be situations where making concessions is the rational and best course of action. These occasions are rare and only occur when faced with a genuine reason and/or credible threat. In the current context, members need to determine whether threats of giving new aircraft to another pilot group is credible or if it is simply a cynical and opportunistic tactic by the Qantas Industrial Relations Department before the pandemic is over.



Right now, Jetstar has grown its pilot resources above pre-pandemic levels and has large training requirements, Network is under enormous training pressures and is having to allow its seconded pilots to return elsewhere in the group, Alliance Airlines cannot maintain crew on its E190 and the QantasLink Dash-8 operation is recruiting strongly and planning for high levels of attrition.



There is also the question of how much the redundancy liability would be if the A321 was not used to replace the B737 at Qantas short haul and the A220 was not used to replace the B717 at NJS. That is before considering our response and the possible legal implications of such a move by Qantas.



Right now, Australian pilots need to “hold steady”. Be rational and measured. Do not be rattled by the desperate and opportunistic threats (veiled or not) by various aviation employers. Carefully consider whether their threats are credible. Listen to your AFAP pilot representatives and speak to our experienced industrial and legal staff.



We will keep you posted on developments.



Yours sincerely



Simon Lutton

Executive Director

Australian Federation of Air Pilots

[-41]

Simon neglects to refer to the less than satisfactory EA AFAP recommended to us at VA NB. Yeah Simon where are those 80hr RP'S. Barely making 40hrs. Just great thanks AFAP.

What about the threat of modern award from VA. Not to mention the virtuous clause "no redundancy until Dec 22"

AFAP knew Bain was leveraging covid to screw negotiations in their favour and folded badly, to believe VA would give 69+ per RP. Better not mention Tims project CMS😂. That is looooong overdue.



​​​
​​​​​​

[Servo]

Simon neglects to refer to the less than satisfactory EA AFAP recommended to us at VA NB. Yeah Simon where are those 80hr RP'S. Barely making 40hrs. Just great thanks AFAP.

What about the threat of modern award from VA. Not to mention the virtuous clause "no redundancy until Dec 22"

AFAP knew Bain was leveraging covid to screw negotiations in their favour and folded badly, to believe VA would give 69+ per RP. Better not mention Tims project CMS😂. That is looooong overdue.



​​​
​​​​​​

And if you say anything on the AFAP forum you are SHOT DOWN by all and sundry. As you mention, where was Simon's concern during the VA EA negotiations? Very close to leaving and finding someone else to represent me that is NOT AFAP or VIPA.

I was actually disgusted by Simon's email to be honest. A HUGE slap in the face for those of us at VA.

[-41]

I watched on the VA forum as those whom warned it was a poor deal got dealt with by the Afap.

The same afap that signs NDA's then announces hey boys and girls guess where them 700's are going.

Yeah nah, no thanks AFAP you screwed us mid listers and below on the 737 NB EA. So much for the clause no nb pilot will be displaced by WB pilots made redundant. The hypocrisy of these guys in AFAP, doing deals to put us on low mCg then getting their WB mates hired back on FULL COMMAND SALARY. Whilst midlisters and below where SLWOP .


Do not take IR advice from AFAP.

[Vindiesel]

"members need to determine whether threats of giving new aircraft to another pilot group is credible..."

Isn't this what the members pay their thousands in membership fees for? Some advice beyond just being told to conisder things?

What a cop out. Seems like an easy way of avoiding any responsiblity if the members get their conisderation "wrong".

[-41]

Be not concerned, when the EA turns to custard and your making less coin, the AFAP will make it clear to the company how taken advantage of YOU feel under the deal AFAP recommended.

Total cop out by the AFAP on the NB EA.
we are nowhere near the same income levels and they continue to rehire then give flying away to a subsidiary.

" We also highlighted the impact of how the announcement will be felt across VAA (and particularly in the Perth base) given average Credit Hours available to current VAA Pilots had not reached previous income levels. We reinforced that Pilots feel taken advantage of out of the EA and that if the business is not utisling the VAA Pilots fully, seeing B737 aircraft go to VARA which provide greater capacity to absorb VAA RPT flying, will only exacerbate this issue."

[-41]

The same organisation that warns us not to entertain E3 employment in the US. Where terms are improving.

[Falling Leaf]

I got my hopes up when I saw another email from the AFAP... maybe this is the follow up that Louise promised...what the Feds are going to do about it...

Nope. Simons email just tells us everything we already know, then says don't take a haircut from the Qantas group.

Is that what I pay 1% of my salary for? For the union to say don't get scared into accepting worse conditions to keep my job?

How about Simon tells us what the AFAP are doing to actually protect our terms and conditions. A good start would be to tell us what legal action they are taking against those employers out there who aren't even prepared to follow the provisions of the Fair Work Act and enter into EA bargaining with the union who are there to 'represent' their members.

Pretty pathetic and disappointing. Hoping there's something more concrete coming...and stupid me just renewed by MBF LOL, about the only reason I stay with these losers.

[Chadzat]

I watched on the VA forum as those whom warned it was a poor deal got dealt with by the Afap.

The same afap that signs NDA's then announces hey boys and girls guess where them 700's are going.

Yeah nah, no thanks AFAP you screwed us mid listers and below on the 737 NB EA. So much for the clause no nb pilot will be displaced by WB pilots made redundant. The hypocrisy of these guys in AFAP, doing deals to put us on low mCg then getting their WB mates hired back on FULL COMMAND SALARY. Whilst midlisters and below where SLWOP .


Do not take IR advice from AFAP.

Just a fraction bitter there -41!! And you never even lost your job during COVID……amazing. Im sorry but I cannot let your untruths and general ‘woe is me’ be left without a response. I have looked on as NB FOs (not all mind you, just a noisy few) either on prrune or the afap forums have thrown all sorts of loud opinions around as to how ‘their commands’ are getting stolen from them or delayed into the future. Let me itemise a few replies to your many posts in this thread.

1. Its called Seniority as established by the GDOJ. This list, as written into law by the NB EBA (and was in the WB and ATR ebas) governs things such as promotion, base transfers, REDUNDANCY and RE-EMPLOYMENT. NO NB pilot had been displaced by a returning WB pilot. They have retained their position on the GDOJ in their rank and base while pilots MORE SENIOR have taken a position that befits their seniority as established by the GDOJ. Full stop. End of story. Probably the only reason why you and other mid-bottom FOs were emoloyed in the first place onto the 737 is BECAUSE there was a widebody fleet that sucked pilots off of the 737. So you cant have your cake and eat it too.

2. You have remained continuously employed, getting jobkeeper/half pay/75% pay/now full mcg pay the whole way through COVID. You have not had to change base, sell your house, move your family, try and find another flying job where none existed, had to explain to your partner that you are unemployed and have zero other qualifications other than a pilots licence in order to earn income. To say that ‘you have been screwed over’ is laughable and offensive. Try saying that to an ATR pilots face who had in WRITING a letter from VA stating that they would be afforded a position on the 737 that would be held for them as long as they remain on the ATR fleet in a training and checking role for a number of months/years. Then see the company crabwalk away from that letter as soon as the fleet is binned.

3. ‘Give flying away to a subsidiary’ - would these be intra-WA routes by any chance? These routes were flown by Skywest/VARA before being ‘given’ to VAA originally when they purchased/took over Skywest! Probably before you were even employed by VAA! So again, your assertion that the F100 replacement aircraft are taking away ‘your flying’ and ‘your command’ is once again laughable and devoid of fact.

4. If you want a strong Union (and I am by no means an afap apologist here, merely trying to insert some facts into this conversation) then you need to get off your behind and actually do something about it. Pilots in this country are so happy to whinge how bad they have it and how conditions are so ****, and yet in the next breath say ‘im quitting the Union, they are useless’. All the while we get more fractured, divided and at each other, instead of being ‘at’ the Company/s.

The biggest problem Australian pilots have is an apathy towards being united and actually sticking it to the company. The Union doesnt determine your Ts and Cs, the pilot group does by voting on an agreement that has been presented to them by the Company. Rather than just keyboard-warrioring on here, why dont you pick up the phone, call your pilot rep and actually tell them what you are after in a constructive way. See if there are ways you can bring your colleagues along with you and before too long you have a critical mass that will drive the agenda.

the letter might have missed the mark slightly but it doesnt deserve to be pilloried like it is….

[gamma69]

I Agree with the above,
Im on the VA GDOJ still awaiting my return, I don't believe that anyone is being unfairly treated in the return of pilots. In due time those higher up the list will obtain a CMD and will make more room for the returning members.
Too little pilots see, It's been tough out in the real world finding employment outside of the aviation world. Even now trying to step back in a flying role is tough. Two years without flying and 10 thousand hours, not many people want you.
I would consider myself lucky to be still in the seat at VA in any capacity.
Previous years going through industrial action at Australia's largest independent airline, senior and junior pilots all talked the talked but when needed to walk, they all went too quiet(Really disappointing) some even came to work and financially gained when others refused to come into work for stop work actions .
I considered everyone in the act of action to protect what we had now and new pilots to the group, even tho my life long career wasn't at that airline.
Pilots need to start taking more action for everyone sake, otherwise your voice is just pointless.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

Ah Simon,

Whinging after the fact.

So what have the AFAP been doing for the last 33 years then?

Taking union fees, for efectively nothing whilst parrading as a relevant union. I remember conducting a circling approach into Baghdad whilst..... never mind.

Your mob has never regained any credibility since your " Shining moment ".

MCD

[aseriesofleftturns]

Ah Simon,

Whinging after the fact.

So what have the AFAP been doing for the last 33 years then?

Taking union fees, for efectively nothing whilst parrading as a relevant union. I remember conducting a circling approach into Baghdad whilst..... never mind.

Your mob has never regained any credibility since your " Shining moment ".

MCD

Genuine Q - Why do you boomers always sign off with your initials/username? Are you that narcissistic?

[-41]

AFAP only wishes to expand its subscription base.

[Red69]

​​​​​​you must be a delight to do 4 sectors with.

You get to have your cake and eat it, get paid out have a separation from the group due to what is called a redundancy. Then somehow because you chose to fly the WB those that joined after you to fly the 737 are less deserving of a opportunity.

Run along, probably the same cohort that whinged and whined about the base balancing when those junior to you on light jet got a BNE base.

Nah you go enjoy what you have earned.

its more than just a small vocal minority of FO's that have this opinion. Like i would bother with the AFAP forum.

Afap only cares about expanding their subscription base.

You seem to think it’s only people on the first 5 pages of the seniority list who got made redundant. There were many pilots who were not wide body pilots who also got made redundant. These pilots did not receive large pay outs and and are still waiting for a their chance to return.

The junior fo’s who are whinging about their hardship are more than welcome to hand in their resignation. No one is stopping them from moving to greener pastures since VA is such a tough slog for them.

When there was a threat of redundancies on the 737 there wasn’t any objection from the junior fo’s in regards to the agreement to allow pilots a return of service for 7 years. All of a sudden, that threat disappears and the oh so entitled junior fo’s are screaming ‘Dey tuk our jerbs’. How convenient.

Try losing your livelihood, your house, your family and all certainty in life. A bit of perspective would do you some good.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

Genuine Q - Why do you boomers always sign off with your initials/username? Are you that narcissistic?


Its simply a more formal way to end a post/ statement. It also implies that you are taking responsibility for what you have written. Start by googling " personal responsibility".

Narcissism has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Whinning about ever degrading conditions from a union body unable to effect real change for its members for a VERY long time stopped making sense decades ago.

I hope that answered your " Q ".

MCD

[Roj approved]

The union movement across all industries around the world have the same problem,

[Don Diego]

Neither Union has a snowflakes chance in hell of stopping Q doing exactly what Q wants to do, any thoughts to the contrary are delusional. It has been so for decades, sad but true. Just a bit of bravado from SL, he ain’t got nuttin to back it up.

[PoppaJo]

I Agree with the above,
Im on the VA GDOJ still awaiting my return, I don't believe that anyone is being unfairly treated in the return of pilots. In due time those higher up the list will obtain a CMD and will make more room for the returning members.
Too little pilots see, It's been tough out in the real world finding employment outside of the aviation world. Even now trying to step back in a flying role is tough. Two years without flying and 10 thousand hours, not many people want you.
I would consider myself lucky to be still in the seat at VA in any capacity.
Previous years going through industrial action at Australia's largest independent airline, senior and junior pilots all talked the talked but when needed to walk, they all went too quiet(Really disappointing) some even came to work and financially gained when others refused to come into work for stop work actions .
I considered everyone in the act of action to protect what we had now and new pilots to the group, even tho my life long career wasn't at that airline.
Pilots need to start taking more action for everyone sake, otherwise your voice is just pointless.

I really think those days are gone, I noticed some pretty poor behaviour during the pandemic from a select few, however it’s every man for himself these days.

The worst I witnessed was widebody crews trying to do people like me, on a narrow body, out of my job. A group approached the union over that very matter. I have been here for xx years longer vs you have, I want my command back which I gave you when I left to go fly bigger toys. Nobody forced you to take an upgrade, I declined. One bloke told another captain here, to his face that he should be demoted back to FO from his recent command so he could get his old job back. We have no hope with snakes like this around the traps.

[Gnadenburg]

Just to clarify Virgin Blue pilots labelling each other snakes, what was the seniority policy of moving on to a wide body ?

[Servo]

I dont think Poppajo works for VA. Unfortunately though there are snakes in every business, more so in aviation I reckon.

VA has a deed of return (which a number did not know existed) for WB as well as Tiger and ATR crews to return to the NB fleet. Very smart of the VA WB crew to have something like that.

I dont think the returns have managed to get down the list to Tiger or ATR yet unfortunately.

[WillieTheWimp]

The re-employment clause was in all the agreements before COVID. It was never a secret.

[DropYourSocks]

I really think those days are gone, I noticed some pretty poor behaviour during the pandemic from a select few, however it’s every man for himself these days.

The worst I witnessed was widebody crews trying to do people like me, on a narrow body, out of my job. A group approached the union over that very matter. I have been here for xx years longer vs you have, I want my command back which I gave you when I left to go fly bigger toys. Nobody forced you to take an upgrade, I declined. One bloke told another captain here, to his face that he should be demoted back to FO from his recent command so he could get his old job back. We have no hope with snakes like this around the traps.

What you describe is literally how seniority is supposed to work, not the hatchet job VA did to the WB guys just because they were inconvenient. The training shuffle of downgrading everyone onto smaller equipment is supposed to be painful for the company, by design, to discourage mass redundancies. This is how seniority is supposed to protect your job.

But instead, VA got rid of everyone, regardless of seniority, who was an inconvenience for them... ie everyone who isn't a 737 driver. What then is the point of seniority if it doesn't protect your job, but still traps you to an airline? May as well have a merit based system at that point.

I don't work for VA either, I've made my bed elsewhere.

[Servo]

The re-employment clause was in all the agreements before COVID. It was never a secret.
You are correct and it wasnt. I was just saying it was not widely known by the NB crew.

[The_Equaliser]

In regards to the proposed variation to the QF SHEA there has been a gag order imposed by the AIPA Comm. Carried by 1 vote the negotiators or Comm members are not able to comment on the pros and cons of the proposal to be voted on. Two of the AIPA Comm members who voted for this are long time LH SOs who will never come to SH. They have also recently left the AIPA Comm. AIPA President AKA Keg alluded to this in an email today. Discuss.

[aussieflyboy]

In regards to the proposed variation to the QF SHEA there has been a gag order imposed by the AIPA Comm. Carried by 1 vote the negotiators or Comm members are not able to comment on the pros and cons of the proposal to be voted on. Two of the AIPA Comm members who voted for this are long time LH SOs who will never come to SH. They have also recently left the AIPA Comm. AIPA President AKA Keg alluded to this in an email today. Discuss.

What happens if you ignore the gag order? Sent to the naughty corner?

[KRUSTY 34]

Neither Union has a snowflakes chance in hell of stopping Q doing exactly what Q wants to do, any thoughts to the contrary are delusional. It has been so for decades, sad but true. Just a bit of bravado from SL, he ain’t got nuttin to back it up.

Sadly true.

When the Fair Work Commisioner finds in favour of the sacked baggage handlers but refuses to reinstate them because it would impose a financial detriment to Qantas!

What bloody chance have you got?

[dr dre]

In regards to the proposed variation to the QF SHEA there has been a gag order imposed by the AIPA Comm. Carried by 1 vote the negotiators or Comm members are not able to comment on the pros and cons of the proposal to be voted on. Two of the AIPA Comm members who voted for this are long time LH SOs who will never come to SH. They have also recently left the AIPA Comm. AIPA President AKA Keg alluded to this in an email today. Discuss.

It doesn’t bode well for an organisation pilots send a few thousand dollars per year to represent them in situations like this.

Anyway on inspection the proposed conditions aren’t really that much of a change are they? Still will be some of the highest paid narrowbody pilots in the region, after the pandemic I thought the company would’ve made a pay cut a mandatory requirement in order to receive the new aircraft but they haven’t. Definitely more pay than any company the flying will be outsourced to if it’s a No vote. Pilots in base to get first priority in allocation of slots to avoid any unwanted transfers. FRMS looks to be similar to current FDTLs, some important parts of the rostering manual included in the variation. Very minor changes to bidding.

And then some reserves possibly allocated to those on AV days is the only real change but in fairness probably won’t be that much of an effect. The assigning of duties to crews only happens on an infrequent basis now anyway, only a few times per year. Most uncrewed reserves only happen at the last minute and the new process for allocating reserves has to be done days ahead, so last minute assignments would be a rarity.

There’s some who are angry with the process by which the variations were negotiated but you shouldn’t allow that to guide your decision making. Just consider the proposal on its own merit, with an awareness of what will happen if the vote goes either way.

If it’s a Yes then you get the A321 established in mainline under virtually the same conditions as now. Hard for them to outsource if the first aircraft are established in mainline, and any issues that arise when the operation starts can be addressed in future EBAs.

If it’s a No then the company has been pretty clear with their intentions. The Union also has not indicated that there would be any legal recourse to stop the aircraft going to another operator, of which there are plenty.

It’s a fairly easy choice tbh

[anonfly]

What you describe is literally how seniority is supposed to work, not the hatchet job VA did to the WB guys just because they were inconvenient. The training shuffle of downgrading everyone onto smaller equipment is supposed to be painful for the company, by design, to discourage mass redundancies. This is how seniority is supposed to protect your job.

But instead, VA got rid of everyone, regardless of seniority, who was an inconvenience for them... ie everyone who isn't a 737 driver. What then is the point of seniority if it doesn't protect your job, but still traps you to an airline? May as well have a merit based system at that point.

I don't work for VA either, I've made my bed elsewhere.

The issue was the reemployment policy had no details as to how the pilots were to be reemployed.
The AFAP then went and negotiated a deed of reemployed which screwed over Narrow body pilots without consultation to the NB pilots. What isn’t widely know is whilst in negotiations to further drive their own agenda protecting WB pilots the union agreed to a further pay cut of minimum credit guarantee. Costing NB pilots between $5000-$10,000.
The audacity of some WB pilots was breathtaking to say the only reason people had jobs is because they took jobs (And the $$, lifestyle, low hours etc) on the WB fleet.
Plenty of very senior pilots didn’t take a position in the WB as they could see it had its risks and stayed on the 737. It didn’t take a finance degree to figure Virgin was in serious trouble well before Covid. Posting a loss year in year out; the writing was on the wall.
It was always going to be a cluster but some acknowledgment, empathy and tact for both sides was needed. Instead FOs got railroaded.

[aussieflyboy]

It doesn’t bode well for an organisation pilots send a few thousand dollars per year to represent them in situations like this.

Anyway on inspection the proposed conditions aren’t really that much of a change are they? Still will be some of the highest paid narrowbody pilots in the region, after the pandemic I thought the company would’ve made a pay cut a mandatory requirement in order to receive the new aircraft but they haven’t. Definitely more pay than any company the flying will be outsourced to if it’s a No vote. Pilots in base to get first priority in allocation of slots to avoid any unwanted transfers. FRMS looks to be similar to current FDTLs, some important parts of the rostering manual included in the variation. Very minor changes to bidding.

And then some reserves possibly allocated to those on AV days is the only real change but in fairness probably won’t be that much of an effect. The assigning of duties to crews only happens on an infrequent basis now anyway, only a few times per year. Most uncrewed reserves only happen at the last minute and the new process for allocating reserves has to be done days ahead, so last minute assignments would be a rarity.

There’s some who are angry with the process by which the variations were negotiated but you shouldn’t allow that to guide your decision making. Just consider the proposal on its own merit, with an awareness of what will happen if the vote goes either way.

If it’s a Yes then you get the A321 established in mainline under virtually the same conditions as now. Hard for them to outsource if the first aircraft are established in mainline, and any issues that arise when the operation starts can be addressed in future EBAs.

If it’s a No then the company has been pretty clear with their intentions. The Union also has not indicated that there would be any legal recourse to stop the aircraft going to another operator, of which there are plenty.

It’s a fairly easy choice tbh

NJS has cancelled over 40 sectors this week due to lack of crew. Where exactly do you think these other operators are going to get pilots from?

It’s standard IR strategy to invoke a strict timeframe to get a new or amended EA approved as quickly as possible. This is to, amongst other things, reduce the likelihood of industrial action effecting the business.

Generally IR Managers use the standard “if you sign this, you will get XX weeks back pay, if not the back pay will no longer be on the table”. As QF invented a random policy of no wage increases for 2 years they are unable to do this. Therefore they have come up with a new strategy of rush rush sign this agreement quickly before a April/May/June board meeting to ensure your company operates our new aircraft.

It’s important to remember that there is no rush when negotiating a new or amended Agreement. Take the time to review all changes and ensure the impacts are clear and understood. If you are presented an agreement that has holes in it or is sub par to what you are already on and your company refuses to negotiate then vote accordingly.

IGNORE THE IR GRAD STUDENT BS!

[DropYourSocks]

The issue was the reemployment policy had no details as to how the pilots were to be reemployed.
The AFAP then went and negotiated a deed of reemployed which screwed over Narrow body pilots without consultation to the NB pilots. What isn’t widely know is whilst in negotiations to further drive their own agenda protecting WB pilots the union agreed to a further pay cut of minimum credit guarantee. Costing NB pilots between $5000-$10,000.
The audacity of some WB pilots was breathtaking to say the only reason people had jobs is because they took jobs (And the $$, lifestyle, low hours etc) on the WB fleet.
Plenty of very senior pilots didn’t take a position in the WB as they could see it had its risks and stayed on the 737. It didn’t take a finance degree to figure Virgin was in serious trouble well before Covid. Posting a loss year in year out; the writing was on the wall.
It was always going to be a cluster but some acknowledgment, empathy and tact for both sides was needed. Instead FOs got railroaded.

I'll admit, I don't know the details of what was or was not negotiated. My point is senior pilots should not have lost their jobs while junior pilots kept theirs. Fleet type is irrelevant. What is the point of all the negatives of a seniority list, if the only benefit (job security) is ignored? Of all the folks that lost out during Covid, I'd wager the junior VA folks got rather lucky all things considered. The risk of being on one fleet or another is the company's problem, not the pilots. My problem is with the deplorable way the company treated it's pilots.

[Red69]

I'll admit, I don't know the details of what was or was not negotiated. My point is senior pilots should not have lost their jobs while junior pilots kept theirs. Fleet type is irrelevant. What is the point of all the negatives of a seniority list, if the only benefit (job security) is ignored? Of all the folks that lost out during Covid, I'd wager the junior VA folks got rather lucky all things considered. The risk of being on one fleet or another is the company's problem, not the pilots. My problem is with the deplorable way the company treated it's pilots.

Well said. There seem to a lot of angry and entitled junior fo’s at virgin who don’t seem to realise how lucky they are to still be in a job. They were probably the luckiest pilots in Australian aviation during covid. They’re whinging about their career progression while others (many who are senior to them) were kicked to the curb. Think about the poor folk at VANZ, Tiger and on the ATR (many of who were senior to many 737 fo’s) who got the flick, now having to wait their turn to return, most likely having to move base.

The seniority system needs to be run like a proper seniority system like at QF. If not, be done with it and just have the old system of mates looking after mates.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

NJS has cancelled over 40 sectors this week due to lack of crew. Where exactly do you think these other operators are going to get pilots from?

It’s standard IR strategy to invoke a strict timeframe to get a new or amended EA approved as quickly as possible. This is to, amongst other things, reduce the likelihood of industrial action effecting the business.

Generally IR Managers use the standard “if you sign this, you will get XX weeks back pay, if not the back pay will no longer be on the table”. As QF invented a random policy of no wage increases for 2 years they are unable to do this. Therefore they have come up with a new strategy of rush rush sign this agreement quickly before a April/May/June board meeting to ensure your company operates our new aircraft.

It’s important to remember that there is no rush when negotiating a new or amended Agreement. Take the time to review all changes and ensure the impacts are clear and understood. If you are presented an agreement that has holes in it or is sub par to what you are already on and your company refuses to negotiate then vote accordingly.

IGNORE THE IR GRAD STUDENT BS!

This!!

If QF want to give the entire new short haul fleet to another entity, they can go right ahead. NJS and SH are both being given the full thug treatment and neither are impressed. When the deal gets as bad as the mooted offer, other jobs start looking viable, even those outside of aviation. QF may indeed get to stick the boots into the pilots but the brand damage will eventually see the company suffering further irreversible damage. Meanwhile the top strata in management siphon off the difference as reward for their amazing stewardship.

[neville_nobody]

NJS has cancelled over 40 sectors this week due to lack of crew. Where exactly do you think these other operators are going to get pilots from?

Right now the company would probably would have the numbers between Australian expats, disgruntled VA FO's, Older QF SOs/FOs, and Kiwis who would take jobs flying a contracted QF operation. However once they have drained that pond then QF are playing in a world market with well below market salaries. Whether they want to risk their brand on that is a decision they have to make.

[dr dre]

NJS has cancelled over 40 sectors this week due to lack of crew. Where exactly do you think these other operators are going to get pilots from?

The aircraft is being introduced over the next decade so the ramp up can occur gradually, but there’s enough expats and others who’d jump at the opportunity initially for a command. In the long term I foresee them moving to the system the rest of the world uses. Cadets trained as a multicrew airline pilots from the get go, do 5-6 years in the right seat then straight to left seat. They’ve already started this with the Academy system, that’ll be producing a few hundreds pilots a year at its peak, more than enough to feed the SH operation. Now go tell a prospective pilot in their early twenties they can fly a jet after training, earn $150k straight up as an F/O then $220k as a Captain, you’re not going to find any who’ll refuse that offer.

It isn’t fearmongering but an honest appreciation of the reality of the future as I see it. Right now the offer is to fly the A321 under virtually the same conditions as the 737. Those pay rates are almost double the Pilot’s Award rates. It’s a no brainer to me.



If QF want to give the entire new short haul fleet to another entity, they can go right ahead. NJS and SH are both being given the full thug treatment and neither are impressed. When the deal gets as bad as the mooted offer, other jobs start looking viable, even those outside of aviation.

“As bad as the mooted offer” - I don’t know about NJS but SH’s offer is similar to current conditions, with a few changes like assigning reserve coverage. They’ll be the highest paid narrow bodied pilots in the region. Definitely provides the opportunity for all the current FO/SOs to get promoted, which is where the biggest jump in conditions come.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

“As bad as the mooted offer” - I don’t know about NJS but SH’s offer is similar to current conditions, with a few changes like assigning reserve coverage. They’ll be the highest paid narrow bodied pilots in the region. Definitely provides the opportunity for all the current FO/SOs to get promoted, which is where the biggest jump in conditions come.

“Similar to current conditions”…that’s what has been said about the NJS offer. Have another look though, there will be a dozen or more minute changes that have great potential for detriment.

And when you say highest paid, compared to whom? The other NB guys in Australia who have forcibly had their pay and conditions reduced to some of the lowest in history? Good luck to ya if you’re content comparing yourself to the lower end of the industry, that’s precisely where you and others like you are sending the rest of us.

[ExtraShot]

“Similar to current conditions”…that’s what has been said about the NJS offer. Have another look though, there will be a dozen or more minute changes that have great potential for detriment.

And when you say highest paid, compared to whom? The other NB guys in Australia who have forcibly had their pay and conditions reduced to some of the lowest in history? Good luck to ya if you’re content comparing yourself to the lower end of the industry, that’s precisely where you and others like you are sending the rest of us.

I haven’t seen anything to ‘Have a another look through’ yet… can you elaborate on what is going to be so bad?

Dre’s run down seems correct to me from the little information we’ve been given so far. Other than in the US, are there any narrow body pilots the world over with a better offer to fly A321s?

[dr dre]

And when you say highest paid, compared to whom? The other NB guys in Australia who have forcibly had their pay and conditions reduced to some of the lowest in history? Good luck to ya if you’re content comparing yourself to the lower end of the industry, that’s precisely where you and others like you are sending the rest of us.

Do the math:

Qantas Airways Limited Pilots (Short Haul) Enterprise Agreement 2020 (EBA8) (https://sasrcdataprdaueaa.blob.core.windows.net/enterpriseagreements/2020/2/ae507126.pdf?sv=2019-07-07&spr=https,http&st=2022-05-27T02%3A59%3A36Z&se=2022-05-28T02%3A59%3A36Z&sr=c&sp=r&sig=oEzNZSuqg2zeJWOfTWyTA8rUxJvSdE2b%2B2y%2BYrZr9PQ%3D)

Page 51

4th year pay rate for Captains, given a standard divisor of around 68hrs brings that rate up to around $310k. And that’s without including allowances (if the A321 is doing a little more international flying that’ll shoot up significantly), bonus (extra 10% if management reward themselves which is regularly), or additional pay above 68hrs (which can be quite easy to pick up if you wish). Potentially with picking up a few extra trips and a little bit of international flying pay of $350-400k can be likely.

That is what they’re proposing for the A321. How is in any way, shape or form a “race to the bottom”?

We’ve just come out of the largest shock to the aviation industry in history and instead of losing your job, being made redundant, getting demoted or being forced to take a large pay cut, we’re being offered new aircraft under essentially the same pay and conditions, and a big pay rise for all the FOs and SOs who will get their long deserved promotions.

Instead some (I hope a minority) have an attitude of “tell the company where to shove it”. That might make you feel good but where does it leave the careers of a thousand junior pilots?

[Servo]

VA is on the race to the bottom Dr. Dre, 1 or 19 year Captains are on $200K at 57.5 hours and thats basically it. Most trips will be day trips with little overnights and next to no allowances. $310K would be out of reach at VA.

[PoppaJo]

The QF A321 proposal is probably the highest paid deal for that type globally, that I know about. A QF A321 LHS will be 100-150k ahead of a JQ A321 LHS.

VERY important that Team JQ fight tooth and nail for a solid deal very soon.

[Jet Jockey]

The QF A321 proposal is probably the highest paid deal for that type globally, that I know about. A QF A321 LHS will be 100-150k ahead of a JQ A321 LHS.

VERY important that Team JQ fight tooth and nail for a solid deal very soon.

I agree with that! I would not be surprised if JQ don’t account for nearly 50% of the QF bottom line or more in the next 3 years. I hear those poor folk still frozen on 2018 pay rates with 787 skippers on 228k for 75 hrs a month flogging around the tropics with regularly in excess of 350 pob. No happy campers there!

[ManillaChillaDilla]

I agree with that! I would not be surprised if JQ don’t account for nearly 50% of the QF bottom line or more in the next 3 years. I hear those poor folk still frozen on 2018 pay rates with 787 skippers on 228k for 75 hrs a month flogging around the tropics with regularly in excess of 350 pob. No happy campers there!

The exodus is about to start and it wont be a trickle. 38 applications give or take a few for the latest MOU. To sit in the right hand seat of a 737. Things cant be that flash if thats happening.

KDP was the final insult for the senior guys.

What a socially and professionally devisive thing KPIs are after all. Looks good on paper but when you cant look your own troops in the eyes, is it really worth it?

When the wheels fall off, how long can you drive on the rims?


MCD.

[Lapon]

So where are these pilots all coming from to fly these 220s and 321s if NJS and SH don't operate them?
If there are all these expats supposedly willing to do it then why hasn't Alliance or Network got the memo that thier crewing problems are over? :rolleyes:

Infact, where are all the pilots going to come from anyway when NJS and SH do get on with it? It seems that half of SH are trying to get to LH, and half of NJS are trying to get to Atlas as it is.

[dr dre]

So where are these pilots all coming from to fly these 321s if SH don't operate them?


Initially - we’ve seen on this thread VA and JQ pilots are on substantially less so DEC could be sourced from them for an salary more than their current rates but below what’s being proposed for mainline. Also can get expats from overseas wanting to come home, which they will for somewhere North of $250k per year. Current mainline pilots who’ve been waiting decades (yes decades) for a command and are now surplus to requirements with the phasing out of the 737. Even 457s if they can get away with it. F/Os can be sourced from Academy graduates.

They’ll find pilots, just offer them a bit more than VA which will still be less than QF mainline.

Don’t think they wouldn’t try? They grounded an airline and outsourced all baggage handlers overnight, even though they lost in court that didn’t phase them. The Union has been neutered in providing any assistance.

It’s a clear choice between a continuation of the same conditions now or outsourced uncertainty at much lower rates for those who eventually get to fly the thing.

[Lapon]

Initially - we’ve seen on this thread VA and JQ pilots are on substantially less so DEC could be sourced from them for an salary more than their current rates but below what’s being proposed for mainline. Also can get expats from overseas wanting to come home, which they will for somewhere North of $250k per year. Current mainline pilots who’ve been waiting decades (yes decades) for a command and are now surplus to requirements with the phasing out of the 737. Even 457s if they can get away with it. F/Os can be sourced from Academy graduates.

They’ll find pilots, just offer them a bit more than VA which will still be less than QF mainline.

Don’t think they wouldn’t try? They grounded an airline and outsourced all baggage handlers overnight, even though they lost in court that didn’t phase them. The Union has been neutered in providing any assistance.

It’s a clear choice between a continuation of the same conditions now or outsourced uncertainty at much lower rates for those who eventually get to fly the thing.

The fact Qantas lost in court over that will limit thier success at another attempt, as will will the slow phased approach with Winton.
QF were found to be wrong with thier handling of the baggage handlers, but the replacements had already been hired so the damage was done.

Everyone has thier price, but most expats I know are expats for a reason... and for many Australia wasn't worth thier while under the old conditions, so a cut to those won't entice them back either.

VA, 457s and acadamy grads haven't been able to help Network or Alliance, so while theoretically possible, it seems unlikely.
Anything is always possible, but the at the heart of the matter is that the company need the pilots they have (and then some) for Winton to be a success.

Hurrying to accept a deal out of fear is how not to negotiate.

[dr dre]

The fact Qantas lost in court over that will limit thier success at another attempt, as will will the slow phased approach with Winton.
QF were found to be wrong with thier handling of the baggage handlers, but the replacements had already been hired so the damage was done.

I believe transmission of business only effects employees terminated then rehired under lower conditions. It’s not as if all SH will be sacked overnight, there’s probably enough slow retirement of the 73 to slowly phase SH pilots back into LH, but that just means an end to promotions for another 10 years and a 30 year wait for command.

Everyone has thier price, but most expats I know are expats for a reason... and for many Australia wasn't worth thier while under the old conditions, so a cut to those won't entice them back either.

A cut from what? Conditions less than SH but more than VA will be enticing, and not just for expats. How many ex pilots are out there either un or underemployed? CX for instance.

VA, 457s and acadamy grads haven't been able to help Network or Alliance, so while theoretically possible, it seems unlikely.

VA would be taking a pay cut to go to Network or Alliance at the moment, but possibly not for a future A321 contract. Alliance sourcing 457s now, and Academy graduates can be geared toward jets after training. That will take some time to set up, but it’s a probable future.

The issue they have made it very clear what a “No” vote entails, and when they say something in the IR sphere they usually mean it despite how some they are bluffing. No one of those proposing a No vote have made any case for what happens post a No vote, only statements along the lines of “let some other mob fly the 321”. That’s how we’re going to treat the future careers of junior pilots? And all this for proposed 321 pay and conditions that are very similar to current ones, something not many suitable replacements in the industry would baulk at.

[Lapon]

I dont work for Qantas so I dont know the specifics of what is being offered, but I dare say there is more than a base pay issue at stake.

If another entity was to be created from scratch I dont think it will be for terms 'slightly less' that SH already has or it wouldn't be worthwhile, which circles back to who would do what is arguably enroaching on A330 flying.

Alliance haven't got 457's, they have only said they need them, there are no grads, and I'm sure if there were an abundance of unemployed VA pilots or homesick expats they would have already gone to to Alliance or Network as to pay the bills / get home.

​​​​As sure as night follows day the next phase of Winton in the years ahead will 'require' further cuts to T&Cs to the point you need to ask where you are going to draw the line and say no.
If you don't have have one you might as well go and join the likes of Network now instead of waiting to be on par anyway.

[TimmyTee]

From the outside, the level of Stockholm syndrome justification posting amongst some of these posters outdoes most of the QF Angel's best efforts on this site

[neville_nobody]

From the outside, the level of Stockholm syndrome justification posting amongst some of these posters outdoes most of the QF Angel's best efforts on this site

Do you believe that if QF started a SH Contractor with pay higher than everybody else but lower than the current SH Contract that they wouldn’t be inundated? Despite all the postulating there are a lot of pilots looking for work at the moment and alot of expats trying to get out of Hong Kong.

[Gnadenburg]

In reference to expats, it will be interesting when things pick up. Including, unbelievably at the moment, Hong Kong and China. A resurgence of demand for pilots in Asia and a new market in North America is as unprecedented as COVID itself. An offset will be new Australian taxation laws pertaining to expats that I think will make commuting a thing of the past. Many Australian pilots will go back abroad for financial reasons and a little adventure- versus flying jets regionally with an Uber driver like lifestyle.

[t_cas]

There are also many pilots still not returning to the industry. At least not in a hurry to. Expats will gravitate back to that familiar patch. Some will remain in the reset lifestyle and enjoy it a while longer. Some of those returning are less happy with the crap lifestyle that has become “the norm” and accepted level of fatigue.

Add to this the inevitable health equation. The toll over the last couple of years has been present.

[Lapon]

From the outside, the level of Stockholm syndrome justification posting amongst some of these posters outdoes most of the QF Angel's best efforts on this site

Nailed it. :ok:

[ScepticalOptomist]

From the outside, the level of Stockholm syndrome justification posting amongst some of these posters outdoes most of the QF Angel's best efforts on this site

Agreed. Dr Dre, I sure hope you’re not a QF pilot mate. I respect everyone’s viewpoint, but the own goals must get tiring.

[ExtraShot]

Agreed. Dr Dre, I sure hope you’re not a QF pilot mate. I respect everyone’s viewpoint, but the own goals must get tiring.

That doesn’t sound like you respect his viewpoint at all.

Ill ask again… genuine question because I certainly haven’t seen the actual agreement beyond the dot points in the emails sent by Aipa / QF - can someone describe exactly what is so bad in this variation, that it’s now ‘Stockholm syndrome’ or being a ‘Qantas Angel’ for someone to lean towards a Yes vote?

[dr dre]

Ill ask again… genuine question because I certainly haven’t seen the actual agreement beyond the dot points in the emails sent by Aipa / QF - can someone describe exactly what is so bad in this variation, that it’s now ‘Stockholm syndrome’ or being a ‘Qantas Angel’ for someone to lean towards a Yes vote?

Well unless AIPA can provide some extra info in the document they should be providing next week I couldn’t see many major differences to the current EBA. A process of assigning reserve duties similar to assignment of flying duties is the main change. Otherwise there’s no changes to salary, operate under an FRMS similar to current duty time limits, parts of the RM incorporated into the FRMS, a process to ensure current SH crews in rank and base aren’t displaced as the new aircraft are bought in, some minor changes to the roster bidding process, longer freeze period but only if awarded a slot, if assigned a slot the shorter freeze period applies.

The main angst seems to more general unhappiness at the current state of the company rather than specifics in the proposed variations.

Neither an Angel or Stockholm syndrome here, but interesting as in both the last 2 previous LH EBA votes anyone supporting those deals were also labelled with similar terms, and those deals were voted up with over an 80% Yes vote. Must be a lot of Angels out there.....

[C441]

…...but interesting as in both the last 2 previous LH EBA votes anyone supporting those deals were also labelled with similar terms, and those deals were voted up with over an 80% Yes vote.
Not surprisingly that tends to happen when the threatened alternative is no job. :rolleyes:

[Lapon]

Not surprisingly that tends to happen when the threatened alternative is no job. :rolleyes:

Was it the threat that lead to it being voted up or enough individual opinions of either 'I can benefit from a promotion' or 'that wont materially affect me anyway' that go it through.

I genuinely dont know the answer, but pilots around here do have a reputation of sorts.

[ScepticalOptomist]

That doesn’t sound like you respect his viewpoint at all.

Ill ask again… genuine question because I certainly haven’t seen the actual agreement beyond the dot points in the emails sent by Aipa / QF - can someone describe exactly what is so bad in this variation, that it’s now ‘Stockholm syndrome’ or being a ‘Qantas Angel’ for someone to lean towards a Yes vote?

To be clear, I do respect the viewpoint, I just don’t understand it. Everyone is entitled to their view without being threatened / harassed. That doesn’t mean everyone has to agree with it and won’t question it.

No disrespect intended to Dr Dre or anyone else.

After decades of watching pilots ‘racing to the bottom’ through fear campaigns, I do sit and wonder why some think like they do.

[Australopithecus]

…”no changes to salary”. Because of a declared pay freeze despite 5+% inflation? Oh, ok then. Variations to awards used to be a two-way street.

Weight and speed also used to be a thing. More revenue generated for the same low low pay wasn’t.

[TimmyTee]

No change to BoC ops either?

[stillcallozhome]

Well unless AIPA can provide some extra info in the document they should be providing next week I couldn’t see many major differences to the current EBA. A process of assigning reserve duties similar to assignment of flying duties is the main change. Otherwise there’s no changes to salary, operate under an FRMS similar to current duty time limits, parts of the RM incorporated into the FRMS, a process to ensure current SH crews in rank and base aren’t displaced as the new aircraft are bought in, some minor changes to the roster bidding process, longer freeze period but only if awarded a slot, if assigned a slot the shorter freeze period applies.

The main angst seems to more general unhappiness at the current state of the company rather than specifics in the proposed variations.

Neither an Angel or Stockholm syndrome here, but interesting as in both the last 2 previous LH EBA votes anyone supporting those deals were also labelled with similar terms, and those deals were voted up with over an 80% Yes vote. Must be a lot of Angels out there.....

For goodness sake, it’s a fleet replacement. They’re bringing in 321s at the start to get their concessions. The rest will be mostly 320s which are a like for like. There’s no increase to total aircraft. Sacrifice conditions to have a fleet replacement is, in my opinion, crazy.

This is Qantas doing what Qantas does - squeezing everything they can out of every opportunity.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

There is no way to stop the race to the bottom , the company always wins and always has. Remember when the Qantas pilots said don,t join Jetstar on such poor conditions , I wonder where all the people are that took this advice , probably not in Aviation , but more than likely in JQ or VA.
the only floor in this is the pilot award for now , but even this will be challenged.
457 visas would open the floodgates, never will be more than temporary shortages in Australian Airlines.

[dr dre]

There is no way to stop the race to the bottom , the company always wins and always has. Remember when the Qantas pilots said don,t join Jetstar on such poor conditions , I wonder where all the people are that took this advice , probably not in Aviation , but more than likely in JQ or VA.
the only floor in this is the pilot award for now , but even this will be challenged.
457 visas would open the floodgates, never will be more than temporary shortages in Australian Airlines.

Yeah I think I have to keep reminding people of this:

You say “race to the bottom”, the proposed deal for the A321 will see (at the usual hours of roughly 68 per roster) Captains earn about $310,000 and F/O’s $195,000. With some allowances, bonus and picking up an extra day of work a roster in what an “average” year pre pandemic would’ve consisted of can see that pay increase by 25-30%.

In comparison the Pilot’s Award floor for Narrowbody Captain and F/O are $171,000 and $110,000 once the ATPL, turbojet and IR allowances are added on.

[neville_nobody]

In comparison the Pilot’s Award floor for Narrowbody Captain and F/O are $171,000 and $110,000 once the ATPL, turbojet and IR allowances are added on.

The Pilot's Award is a pointless comparison as you couldn't run an airline on the work rules. It's basically 171k to work business hours with weekends off.

There is no way to stop the race to the bottom , the company always wins and always has.

It will stop when the Pilot Labour market implodes and noone wants to do the job as the cost of training is to high and noone wants to take the risk. I would suggest that some Regionals and maybe Alliance will be there sooner than you think.

[PoppaJo]

It will stop when the Pilot Labour market implodes and noone wants to do the job as the cost of training is to high and noone wants to take the risk. I would suggest that some Regionals and maybe Alliance will be there sooner than you think.
The cost of training, today, including common ratings like FIR, IR, ME etc is 120-130k. Then you are earning probably 60k for the next 5-10 years. Sounds attractive right?

Some places like the US have seen what is coming in the medium term and are offering some serious improvements in pay. Get them while you can etc.

We will be the last place on earth to react to anything and by the time we do, we will be parking aircraft and paying the next generation of pilots, whoever is left, crazy overtime rates. It’s at that point in when we might do something, which usually involves sooking to Canberra. Cadets are the answer apparently. No they are not, in this country they will all just p!ss off abroad taking double dollars to fly big twins with folding wings.

[cLeArIcE]

I don't ever recall QF getting bagged in the media, on travel forums and social media as much as they have been for the last few months. Surely, (eventually) some of the mud being flung must stick on Joyce and co. How long can they go on treating pax and staff with utter contempt whilst applauding there cost cutting strategies.
Furious passengers unleash on Qantas after flight attendants exposed the shocking secrets of Australia's national carrier: 'You need to do better' (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10887741/Angry-customers-react-Qantas-going-best-worst-airline.html?ito=native_share_article-m)

[blubak]

I don't ever recall QF getting bagged in the media, on travel forums and social media as much as they have been for the last few months. Surely, (eventually) some of the mud being flung must stick on Joyce and co. How long can they go on treating pax and staff with utter contempt whilst applauding there cost cutting strategies.
Furious passengers unleash on Qantas after flight attendants exposed the shocking secrets of Australia's national carrier: 'You need to do better' (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10887741/Angry-customers-react-Qantas-going-best-worst-airline.html?ito=native_share_article-m)
So much truth in that article,the mean spirit has been in existence for quite a few years now & the little grubs at the top believe they are answerable to nobody.
The lies continue & unless the decision of a court is in their favour,it is of course WRONG.
If anybody complains,whether it be passengers,workers or unions,they of course are wrong too.
It was once a great place to work but thats long gone.

[tossbag]

With some allowances, bonus and picking up an extra day of work a roster

riiiiiiight, so picking up an extra days flying boosts your bottom line remuneration, keeps you out of the race to the bottom? So if your income starts to lag a bit, just pick up an extra 2 days flying. When inflation hits 8-10% just pick up maybe 3 extra days.

[dr dre]

riiiiiiight, so picking up an extra days flying boosts your bottom line remuneration, keeps you out of the race to the bottom? So if your income starts to lag a bit, just pick up an extra 2 days flying. When inflation hits 8-10% just pick up maybe 3 extra days.

If you work a standard roster under current conditions without any extra flying, at average credit it’s an average of 3.2 days per week. Less than the standard 5 day work week. For that you get a salary which is about triple the Australian average salary, and puts you in the top 3% of Australian income earners. And that’s not including allowances or the bonus.

Now some may wish to work on average 3.5 days per week, which equates to about 75 hours per roster. Straight up that’s an extra 10% for roughly one extra day per roster.

If you work more you get paid more, it’s a pretty simple concept. However if you just work a standard roster you’re still making a considerable amount of money compared to the average income earner, comparable (https://www.monarch.edu.au/blog/the-top-15-highest-paying-careers-in-australia/) to mining engineers, lawyers and a lot of medical professionals.

[Australopithecus]

Keep telling yourself that.

[KRviator]

If you work a standard roster under current conditions without any extra flying, at average credit it’s an average of 3.2 days per week. Less than the standard 5 day work week. For that you get a salary which is about triple the Australian average salary, and puts you in the top 3% of Australian income earners. And that’s not including allowances or the bonus.

Now some may wish to work on average 3.5 days per week, which equates to about 75 hours per roster. Straight up that’s an extra 10% for roughly one extra day per roster.

If you work more you get paid more, it’s a pretty simple concept. However if you just work a standard roster you’re still making a considerable amount of money compared to the average income earner, comparable (https://www.monarch.edu.au/blog/the-top-15-highest-paying-careers-in-australia/) to mining engineers, lawyers and a lot of medical professionals.So....uuhhh...how long does it take to get to such a shiny jet? And how much have you had to sacrifice yourself both financially (a ****load...) and personally (how many failed relationships?) to get that "considerable amount of money"? It's not as if you get your CPL, pass your ATPL theory and you're flying punters to Bali the following week, is it...There's years flogging out back of Kunners in a 182 that was due for replacement when your parents were born, then maybe a gig in a Conquest or KingAir out of Darwin or Cairns, all the while hoping for that elusive callup...

FFS the KRviatrix is an accountant, she works from home, is barely out of her PJ's by 1000 and earns not that much less than your exemplar Effo. And if she could be bothered, and became a executive or partner-type at KPMG or Deloitte, she'd be on similar coin to your skipper - and not have to deal with CAsA, the Doc for a Class 1 or the security muppets just to get to work!

Face facts, flying commercially in Oz is no longer worth it - it hasn't been for at least the last decade, and unless you're in it for the satisfaction of helping people, a'la RFDS or CareFlight, you're going to be far better off in another career and flying for fun, in your own time. Don't believe me? Run a search on 'Prune for the phrase "Race to the bottom" and see how many times it crops up....

[dr dre]

So....uuhhh...how long does it take to get to such a shiny jet?.

On the current fleet the range of pilot backgrounds is variable, everything from late careers changes who came in to the role in their 50s down to cadets with only a few years in aviation in their early twenties. For sake of defining an "average" background I'd say just prior to Covid it was 30 years old, maybe several years of light aircraft GA flying followed by a few years of regional flying. A lot went straight into a regional via a cadetship or traineeship after basic training. Some went from about two years of basic GA instructing post CPL straight to mainline. Average national salary for someone at age 30 is slightly less than average overall salary, which peaks around age 50. People were getting FO gigs either straight away or no longer than a year or two wait depending on base, and the average age of a new hire is late 20s.

FFS the KRviatrix is an accountant, she works from home, is barely out of her PJ's by 1000 and earns not that much less than your exemplar Effo. And if she could be bothered, and became a executive or partner-type at KPMG or Deloitte, she'd be on similar coin to your skipper - and not have to deal with CAsA, the Doc for a Class 1 or the security muppets just to get to work!\

Average wages for Australian accountants are roughly $80-100k according to these salary statistics (https://www.roberthalf.com.au/sites/roberthalf.com.au/files/pdf/noindex/robert-half-australia-salary-guide-2017.pdf?utm_source=eloqua&utm_medium=transactional&utm_campaign=rh-all-salaryguide2017-ongoing&utm_content=ctatext). You have to get to management positions to get salaries above the mid $100ks, and the only ones earning Captain's equivalent would be positions like CFO or Head of Department.

[Icarus2001]

And if she could be bothered, and became a executive or partner-type at KPMG or Deloitte, she'd be on similar coin to your skipper - and not have to deal with CAsA, the Doc for a Class 1 or the security muppets just to get to work! She would not be working a 38-40 hour week for that though, try about 70 hours a week.

[Chronic Snoozer]

FFS the KRviatrix is an accountant, she works from home, is barely out of her PJ's by 1000 and earns not that much less than your exemplar Effo. And if she could be bothered, and became a executive or partner-type at KPMG or Deloitte, she'd be on similar coin to your skipper - and not have to deal with CAsA, the Doc for a Class 1 or the security muppets just to get to work!

You have missed the point completely. Nobody wants to be an accountant. Even fewer want to be an accountant wearing PJs.

[tossbag]

If you work a standard roster under current conditions without any extra flying, at average credit it’s an average of 3.2 days per week. Less than the standard 5 day work week.

So what?

For that you get a salary which is about triple the Australian average salary, and puts you in the top 3% of Australian income earners. And that’s not including allowances or the bonus.

Again........so what?

Now some may wish to work on average 3.5 days per week, which equates to about 75 hours per roster. Straight up that’s an extra 10% for roughly one extra day per roster.

If you work more you get paid more, it’s a pretty simple concept. However if you just work a standard roster you’re still making a considerable amount of money compared to the average income earner, comparable (https://www.monarch.edu.au/blog/the-top-15-highest-paying-careers-in-australia/) to mining engineers, lawyers and a lot of medical professionals.

You're actually being serious trying to justify working extra, above your agreement, to make yourself look like you're getting paid more?

So, to ensure you're keeping up with the better paid pilot positions you just work more hours?

[tossbag]

Nobody wants to be an accountant

Speak for yourself Tonto.

[ExtraShot]

So what?



Again........so what?



You're actually being serious trying to justify working extra, above your agreement, to make yourself look like you're getting paid more?

So, to ensure you're keeping up with the better paid pilot positions you just work more hours?



Serious question, again. But other than the LHEA, which it has been categorically stated was never under consideration, what are these ‘better paid pilot positions’?

[dr dre]

You're actually being serious trying to justify working extra, above your agreement, to make yourself look like you're getting paid more?

So, to ensure you're keeping up with the better paid pilot positions you just work more hours?

You won’t find a better paid domestic pilot position in the country, and very few global narrowbody non-contract positions would match pay. SH F/O rates after 4 years are similar to AA/DL 738 F/O rates after 6 years, although the US carriers have a few more yearly increments to nudge it up a bit more but not significantly so.

I just added in the extra hours pay as an example of what possible salary could be if you chose i to extra hours, but vice versa you can drop hours and have more time off if you so wish. Or just work the standard hours. Your choice.

So I’m failing to see these “better paid pilot positions” most of the people applying for mainline should be flocking to instead.

[tossbag]

Serious question, again. But other than the LHEA, which it has been categorically stated was never under consideration, what are these ‘better paid pilot positions’?

I'm talking about global comparisons, there are plenty of positions that pay more. And while Australians are trading down their remuneration a lot of those positions are negotiating better conditions.

[tossbag]

From a supply and demand perspective there’s plenty out there who are willing to take these positions.

It wont take long before those pilots are absorbed around the world.

Perhaps you could suggest to the REX pilots that they work an extra 4 days on top of the 4 or so they're rostered to make up for the last 4 years of tripe. 8 day week sounds reasonable.

[ExtraShot]

I'm talking about global comparisons, there are plenty of positions that pay more. And while Australians are trading down their remuneration a lot of those positions are negotiating better conditions.

Outside of the US, where they have the benefit of a restricted supply of pilots (1500hr rule and protectionist rules re: visas) which unfortunately we don’t have, there aren’t any I know of that are better for flying narrow bodies. If there are plenty perhaps people would be able to name them.

[tossbag]

OK, so what you're saying is that outside of the US that Australia has the worlds best paid domestic pilots?

[ExtraShot]

OK, so what you're saying is that outside of the US that Australia has the worlds best paid domestic pilots?

No, Not Australia, but Specifically referring to the QF SHEA. In terms of narrow body pilots flying 737/a321, even inclusive of the proposed variations, would I be wrong?

[aussieflyboy]

It should be noted that the agreement that NJS pilots are voting on as we speak includes a clause stating the agreement covers ALL variants of the A220.

With Airbus publicly stating they are developing an A220-500 which will be close to the size of an A320NEO, the implications of this clause could result in the original Bin Chickens slowly replacing Shorthaul pilots as the 737s are retired.

Apparently they have been offered a ‘vote yes or be redundant’ sort of “agreement”.

[aseriesofleftturns]

It should be noted that the agreement that NJS pilots are voting on as we speak includes a clause stating the agreement covers ALL variants of the A220.

With Airbus publicly stating they are developing an A220-500 which will be close to the size of an A320NEO, the implications of this clause could result in the original Bin Chickens slowly replacing Shorthaul pilots as the 737s are retired.

Apparently they have been offered a ‘vote yes or be redundant’ sort of “agreement”.

And word is they're voting in an inferior EBA. What a bunch of spineless you know what's.

[Beer Baron]

“Dad, why are you unemployed and moving overseas?”
”Well son, I couldn’t have some bloke on the internet calling me spineless now, could I??”

[TimmyTee]

And word is they're voting in an inferior EBA. What a bunch of spineless you know what's.

Wouldn’t agreeing to vary an existing EBA with zero benefits and clear losses also constitute “voting in an inferior EBA”?

[aseriesofleftturns]

Wouldn’t agreeing to vary an existing EBA with zero benefits and clear losses also constitute “voting in an inferior EBA”?

In the quiet words of the virgin mary, come again?

[Colonel_Klink]

In the quiet words of the virgin mary, come again?

I think the inference is the proposed QF SH EA - something where the pilot group are giving up clear benefits for no clear game.

It’s interesting in this day of enterprise bargaining where businesses usually roll out the line that pay increases need to be paid for / offset by productivity gains. Makes you wonder why one pilot union is pushing for a deal where the Company are clearly benefiting from productivity increases yet the pilot group are not seeing any benefit to that….

[dr dre]

It should be noted that the agreement that NJS pilots are voting on as we speak includes a clause stating the agreement covers ALL variants of the A220.

With Airbus publicly stating they are developing an A220-500 which will be close to the size of an A320NEO, the implications of this clause could result in the original Bin Chickens slowly replacing Shorthaul pilots as the 737s are retired.



Conversely the agreement to SH pilots covers all A320 family versions from A318 to A321. So the A318 or A319 could also be introduced into mainline, which are well within the 717/A220 capacity replacing other group pilots.

Swings and roundabouts.

[Going Nowhere]

Conversely the agreement to SH pilots covers all A320 family versions from A318 to A321. So the A318 or A319 could also be introduced into mainline, which are well within the 717/A220 capacity replacing other group pilots.

Swings and roundabouts.

Could the future larger version of the A220 replace some of the 737-800's and the rest be replaced with the A321NEO's ?

[Lapon]

Could the future larger version of the A220 replace some of the 737-800's and the rest be replaced with the A321NEO's ?

Its hard to see how that wouldn't be entirely possible if the 220-300 is successful.
Although there is talk of the -500, Airbus have said its not a priority and wont even be considered for the next few years at least.

I think its also entirety possible some of those 321xlrs start moving in on existing A330 routes.