PDA

View Full Version : IAG to order up to 150 737 Max


Just a spotter
19th May 2022, 10:57
Flight Global reporting that IAG is ordering 150 737 Max across two variants

19th May 2022British Airways and Iberia parent company IAG has agreed to order up to 150 Boeing 737 Max jets.

The order will comprise 25 737 Max 10 variants, plus 25 of the high-density 737 Max 8-200.
https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/iag-to-order-up-to-150-737s-including-max-10-and-high-density-max-8/148714.article

JAS

enzino
19th May 2022, 11:28
Downgrade.

Lonewolf_50
19th May 2022, 12:31
Now that the problems have been addressed and solved, why not?
Speculation: Boeing likely offered a nice discount/package deal to get a major order from a major carrier.
That (order) would be a step in re-establishing confidence in the product.
Would be interested to hear from pilots what the new/conversion training improvements are.

ORAC
19th May 2022, 13:10
No really choice if they want delivery this decade.

Airbus are delivering about 500 aircraft a year but have over 7000 aircraft on order. Accepting they are aiming to ramp up production, but they are being cautious.

Do the maths.

Big Pistons Forever
19th May 2022, 15:17
Rumour is that Boeing is so desperate for orders that the Max is going for about a 25% discount over pre crash valuations. With the huge impairment costs of the Max fiasco, the airplane will never be profitable and the company only cares about short term cash flow to keep the illusion that Boeing Commercial is still a viable company so the stock price doesn’t crash.

But not to worry Boeing won’t crater until after the current executives have cashed out their juicy bonuses.

ATSA1
19th May 2022, 15:31
...and if the Starliner doesnt go well tonight, then the space division of Boeing is well and truly up a certain creek, without a certain instrument!

Winemaker
19th May 2022, 15:42
...and if the Starliner doesnt go well tonight, then the space division of Boeing is well and truly up a certain creek, without a certain instrument!
Nah, no worries. There's always the Defiant helicopter to fall back on......

zambonidriver
19th May 2022, 15:57
Tbh as long as the US can print money out of thin air there will always be enough for Boeing.

To get back to the topic at hand it would be really interresting to know what kind of discount has been ironed out. But even so I wonder what will the TCO be over the whole life of the aircraft.

Una Due Tfc
19th May 2022, 17:40
They are in a very tight corner now. No certainty of whether Max10 and Max7 will make the end of year deadline for certification before EICAS becomes a requirement for all new approvals. Congress might normally have extended that deadline for them but given their record in recent years putting your signature on that type of waiver is a lot riskier than it used to be. Airbus are going to hit 89 narrawbodies per month production in coming years, that drives down costs enormously.

Still no sign if when 787 deliveries will resume, another FUBAR made there in recent days with incomplete documentation submitted to the FAA. 777X EIS delayed another year to 2025, meaning it will be 6 years late at least. They lowballed bids on fixed price military contracts which is hurting them a great deal on the KC-46, VC-25 and T-7. USAF is going cold and reducing orders on the F15-EX.

Because they messed up the 787 program so badly it'll never make money, now potentially the MAX is in the same boat. Penny wise, pound foolish as the saying goes.

As for IAG, order makes sense. Leveraging both manufacturers is sound for future orders. Wonder where they'll end up, those are LCC targeted variants.

oceancrosser
19th May 2022, 19:40
So 50 less than the LOI in 2019. And the 737-8200 order points to “Ryanair-ization” of some of the IAG carriers.

AIMINGHIGH123
19th May 2022, 19:56
Rumour is that Boeing is so desperate for orders that the Max is going for about a 25% discount over pre crash valuations. With the huge impairment costs of the Max fiasco, the airplane will never be profitable and the company only cares about short term cash flow to keep the illusion that Boeing Commercial is still a viable company so the stock price doesn’t crash.

But not to worry Boeing won’t crater until after the current executives have cashed out their juicy bonuses.

More than 25% discount!!! I don’t know the exact figure RYR paid for 737-8200 but it was at least 65% off.

Auxtank
19th May 2022, 20:30
Flight Global reporting that IAG is ordering 150 737 Max across two variants

19th May 2022
https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/iag-to-order-up-to-150-737s-including-max-10-and-high-density-max-8/148714.article

JAS
They announced this over 18 months ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jun/18/british-airlines-parent-iag-reveals-plans-buy-200-boeing-737-max-jets

Hardly Rumour or News. Yawn.

Una Due Tfc
19th May 2022, 20:33
They announced this over 15 months ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jun/18/british-airlines-parent-iag-reveals-plans-buy-200-boeing-737-max-jets

Hardly Rumour or News. Yawn.

That wasn't a firm order, only an LOI. These 50 are firm.

Auxtank
19th May 2022, 20:39
That wasn't a firm order, only an LOI. These 50 are firm.

LOI's these days form the basis of intent so again - with the World rushing to get in to the Debt Lane (with the rest of us) - so hardly news.
Just another Fail lined up like ducks in the sights. Another front-sided re-finance and Juggle/ Strip Show - Long Finance Hit and Miss card shuffle.

Thank God BA ain't a Flag Carrier anymore.

Sad that they aern't,
But glad that they aern't.

DaveReidUK
19th May 2022, 21:34
So 50 less than the LOI in 2019. And the 737-8200 order points to “Ryanair-ization” of some of the IAG carriers.

Maybe, though just because IAG have an aircraft certificated for 200+ pax, with the extra doors, doesn't necessarily mean they will be configured with that many seats.

Big Pistons Forever
20th May 2022, 03:38
More than 25% discount!!! I don’t know the exact figure RYR paid for 737-8200 (tel:737-8200) but it was at least 65% off.

The 65 % is from the list price which basically no serious airline pays. My quote of a 25% discount is over the average amount airlines were actually paying for the Max. RYR is an especially advantageous position because of the size of their 737 fleet and therefore the amount of future orders. There is no doubt that they were able to drive a price point that would not have been attainable before the Max crashes and subsequent grounding.

AIMINGHIGH123
20th May 2022, 07:54
The 65 % is from the list price which basically no serious airline pays. My quote of a 25% discount is over the average amount airlines were actually paying for the Max. RYR is an especially advantageous position because of the size of their 737 fleet and therefore the amount of future orders. There is no doubt that they were able to drive a price point that would not have been attainable before the Max crashes and subsequent grounding.

That 65% wasn’t from list price either!!! They paid less than they did for the 737-800. Began with a 2………

HOVIS
20th May 2022, 10:56
LOI's these days form the basis of intent so again - with the World rushing to get in to the Debt Lane (with the rest of us) - so hardly news.
Just another Fail lined up like ducks in the sights. Another front-sided re-finance and Juggle/ Strip Show - Long Finance Hit and Miss card shuffle.

Thank God BA ain't a Flag Carrier anymore.

Sad that they aern't,
But glad that they aern't.
Could we have that again but in English please? For those of us who don't speak corporate buzz word.

Union Jack
20th May 2022, 12:14
Could we have that again but in English please? For those of us who don't speak corporate buzz word.
Fully agree - the only expression I really understood was "Strip Show"!

Jack

WHBM
20th May 2022, 12:15
Wonder where they'll end up, those are LCC targeted variants.
I fear they will end up on mainstream, high fare, foodless, business flights from Heathrow, with LCC-pitched seats at the front sold as "Club" because the middle seat is not booked - unless they declare because of an operational issue (alias management cheeseparing) today they are now going to seat you all 3-across to overcome a cancellation.

Some beancounter in Madrid thinks they can get away with this.

WideScreen
20th May 2022, 14:28
I fear they will end up on mainstream, high fare, foodless, business flights from Heathrow, with LCC-pitched seats at the front sold as "Club" because the middle seat is not booked - unless they declare because of an operational issue (alias management cheeseparing) today they are now going to seat you all 3-across to overcome a cancellation.

Some beancounter in Madrid thinks they can get away with this.
I though, that super bean counter had been kicked out and things were getting back to a bit more premium ?

Oblivion67
20th May 2022, 17:04
So does anybody have any idea where these aircraft will end up?

Which operator/airline?

I'm a 737 CPT desperate to get home due pregnant wife and it would help if I had an inclination of future job prospects.

Thanks

surely not
20th May 2022, 18:40
From a passenger perspective the 737 cabin is a massive downgrade on the A320 family. It feels cramped and tiny by comparison.

WhatsaLizad?
21st May 2022, 02:24
So does anybody have any idea where these aircraft will end up?

Which operator/airline?

I'm a 737 CPT desperate to get home due pregnant wife and it would help if I had an inclination of future job prospects.

Thanks

From a US 737 CA at a large airline, I wish you a speedy return to reunite with your family.

Cheers.

fdr
22nd May 2022, 00:45
So does anybody have any idea where these aircraft will end up?

Which operator/airline?

I'm a 737 CPT desperate to get home due pregnant wife and it would help if I had an inclination of future job prospects.

Thanks

Have you considered a heavy vehicle license? The world we want is not the one we have anymore, and aviation is heading towards another beating from the looming global return to the 30's.

Winemaker
22nd May 2022, 01:50
Try Alaska Airlines, they seem to be having issues with lack of crew, cancelling way too many flights.....

Bksmithca
22nd May 2022, 02:56
So does anybody have any idea where these aircraft will end up?

Which operator/airline?

I'm a 737 CPT desperate to get home due pregnant wife and it would help if I had an inclination of future job prospects.

Thanks
If you google IAG it showed British Airways and about a dozen other airlines

Oblivion67
22nd May 2022, 08:50
Yes I am very aware that IAG is made up of British Airways and several other airlines and I think I can just about manage a Google search, thanks.

My question is if anyone has any idea where these aircraft may end up within this organisation. ie 150 aircraft to Vueling etc? I heard Vueling may concert from Airbus to Boeing.

Cheers

Mikehotel152
22nd May 2022, 11:33
From a passenger perspective the 737 cabin is a massive downgrade on the A320 family. It feels cramped and tiny by comparison.

The 737-8200 doesn't actually feel tiny and cramped to the passengers. For instance, the RYR seats in their 197 pax layout are comfortable for short haul but are so compact that the cabin feels fine. Certainly not a downgrade, unless you're a snob used to business class. I'd add a caveat: the plane is cramped from the point of view of the cabin crew who are shoehorned into galleys the size of shoeboxes.

WHBM
22nd May 2022, 12:46
The 737-8200 doesn't actually feel tiny and cramped to the passengers. For instance, the RYR seats in their 197 pax layout are comfortable for short haul but are so compact that the cabin feels fine. Certainly not a downgrade, unless you're a snob used to business class. I'd add a caveat: the plane is cramped from the point of view of the cabin crew who are shoehorned into galleys the size of shoeboxes.
It's a bit telling how, on an aviation crew website, the revenue passengers, particularly the best paying and most regular passengers, are sneered at as "snobs", while the cabin crew have hyperbole inserted into their descriptions, such as "shoehorned into shoeboxes"

If you google IAG it showed British Airways and about a dozen other airlinesYou are correct, and whatever the beancounters may massage the figures for tax purposes to show, British Airways is the one that makes the margins, and the other 12 are the ones that lose much of it again ...

WideScreen
22nd May 2022, 13:48
It's a bit telling how, on an aviation crew website, the revenue passengers, particularly the best paying and most regular passengers, are sneered at as "snobs", while the cabin crew have hyperbole inserted into their descriptions, such as "shoehorned into shoeboxes"

You are correct, and whatever the beancounters may massage the figures for tax purposes to show, British Airways is the one that makes the margins, and the other 12 are the ones that lose much of it again ...
Profits go there, where minimal taxes need to be paid. Losses go there, where these are deductible .......

Una Due Tfc
22nd May 2022, 13:56
You are correct, and whatever the beancounters may massage the figures for tax purposes to show, British Airways is the one that makes the margins, and the other 12 are the ones that lose much of it again ...

Wasn't EI's profit margin the highest in IAG by quite some distance pre COVID? Most profitable J cabins and cargo in the group also?

DP.
23rd May 2022, 12:35
The 737-8200 doesn't actually feel tiny and cramped to the passengers. For instance, the RYR seats in their 197 pax layout are comfortable for short haul but are so compact that the cabin feels fine. Certainly not a downgrade, unless you're a snob used to business class. I'd add a caveat: the plane is cramped from the point of view of the cabin crew who are shoehorned into galleys the size of shoeboxes.

I had a 3.5 hour flight on a MAX 8 prior to the grounding and I found it pretty cramped and uncomfortable - and I am not a 'snob' who regularly flies business class, by any stretch of the imagination.

Chesty Morgan
23rd May 2022, 13:25
You see, 6 inches does make a difference.

TogaToFLs
21st Dec 2023, 10:42
Is there any further news/rumours/theories of where these aircraft will go? In theory some of them were going to be delivered in 2023 but as far as I know, none have.

Right Engine
16th Feb 2024, 05:51
Yes I am very aware that IAG is made up of British Airways and several other airlines and I think I can just about manage a Google search, thanks.

My question is if anyone has any idea where these aircraft may end up within this organisation. ie 150 aircraft to Vueling etc? I heard Vueling may concert from Airbus to Boeing.

Cheers

no mention whatsoever here at BA

Stormonttrooper
17th Feb 2024, 15:58
Apparently at BHD the stands 2 and 3 are being widened for 737. /A320
The new air bridge at 3 will be 737 capable

Mr Good Cat
18th Feb 2024, 10:51
Does this MAX order actually still stand with IAG, or will they convert it to a smaller number VLA widebodies such as the 777-9, and some 787s?

Doors to Automatic
18th Feb 2024, 15:52
I don’t know why BA continue to fish in the LCC dominated short haul sector. Surely they would be better sticking to a few flagship routes and domestics and using the slots from the other routes for 5-7 hour medium haul routes where the LCCs don’t fly. This would improve point to point yield and open up some new connecting opportunities, both with little competition.

Hartington
18th Feb 2024, 21:39
Point to Point? I recall a story from a good few years ago about how hub and spoke works. An agent in Austin needed to book a client up to Dallas and found the flight full. Same day he booked someone Austin/Dallas/New York - same flight Austin/Dallas. OK that can happen but some experimentation showed that he could book to points on the East Coast via Dallas but the Austin/Dallas flight was often full even though he could book beyond Dallas. So he started booking to the East Coast and then cancelling the onward flight from Dallas. The airline took a while to catch on and eventually introduced "married pair" segments - book connecting flights and you can only cancel both, not just one.
There are point to point routes but many cross support one another across a hub.
Then they take into account currency. There are countries with exchange controls that don't allow fares collected to be remitted "home". So you might be able to book A-hub-B but not B-hub-A because the airline can't repatriate the fares they collect from B.
Some of the routes BA operate into Europe offer very strong connections across the Atlantic - even though there are BA customers in the London hub area they can be secondary to the connecting traffic.
Oh and not all the hub traffic originates in Europe think Africa to the USA - very few non stop flights and mostly to East Coast points from Africa. If you want somewhere not served non stop from Africa I'd look at a European hub rather than having to transit somewhere like New York or Miami.