Network Aviation Revolving Door

[ActiveLooker]

Heard NAA might be looking for a new CP. Scandal or history repeating itself??

[PoppaJo]

Where is he going now Bonza?

[HappyBandit]

There has been a bit of movement in the management team of late. I wonder if ex CP of Qlink has his eye on the job?

[Agent_86]

Where is he going now Bonza?

Rumour is back to QQ

[aseriesofleftturns]

There has been a bit of movement in the management team of late. I wonder if ex CP of Qlink has his eye on the job?

This the fella that tied the knot in his uniform?

[HappyBandit]

This the fella that tied the knot in his uniform?
haha

That'd be him. I've seen the photos.

[Harry8434]

Interesting post, since the last quarter of last year there has been significant key person turnover Network Aviation, COO defected to VARA (although still in a holding pattern with contract restraints), Head of Safety left, HOTC role having multiple persons in the role since 2020 and a recently appointed a new junior HOTC. If the Chief Pilot is leaving surely this should start to indicate to CASA there are issues internally, when you have seen strong growth with the business growing from 20 aircraft to 28 and staff number increasing from 550 to 750 and with multiple key persons walking out then then from a CASA perspective this would be sending their AOC risk profile score on the upwards!

[aseriesofleftturns]

Aaaand to an apparent chorus of "good riddance" - he's gone.

Gissing even took the opportunity to fly over to Perth and dismiss him.

[Hoofharted]

Which day was that? Last week, this week?

[aussieflyboy]

Hearing rumours NJS CP leaving as well…

[neville_nobody]

If the Chief Pilot is leaving surely this should start to indicate to CASA there are issues internally, when you have seen strong growth with the business growing from 20 aircraft to 28 and staff number increasing from 550 to 750 and with multiple key persons walking out then then from a CASA perspective this would be sending their AOC risk profile score on the upwards!

CASA wouldn't have the intestinal fortitude to take a stand like that against Qantas or any major airline for that matter.

[airdualbleedfault]

Interesting post, since the last quarter of last year there has been significant key person turnover Network Aviation, COO defected to VARA (although still in a holding pattern with contract restraints), Head of Safety left, HOTC role having multiple persons in the role since 2020 and a recently appointed a new junior HOTC. If the Chief Pilot is leaving surely this should start to indicate to CASA there are issues internally, when you have seen strong growth with the business growing from 20 aircraft to 28 and staff number increasing from 550 to 750 and with multiple key persons walking out then then from a CASA perspective this would be sending their AOC risk profile score on the upwards!
Since Kwantarse took over thatll be HOFO #5 coming up, similar amount of HOTACs and the CEOs are not far behind, all that in 11 years and CASA couldn't give a big white rat's ar5e

[Capt Fathom]

Ahh Qantas! The poisoned chalice!

[ActiveLooker]

Rumour is back to QQ
he’s never had the right of return to any of his jobs so I hear.

[neville_nobody]

Since Kwantarse took over thatll be HOFO #5 coming up, similar amount of HOTACs and the CEOs are not far behind, all that in 11 years and CASA couldn't give a big white rat's ar5e

However here is the conundrum: If you were the FOI responsible would you want to become "famous" by taking a stand and upsetting QF? Or just business as usual collect your salary and 15.4% super?
You also have the issue that if you did take a stand it may get overruled from those above you anyway who may or may not be in the Chairman's Lounge or have other aspirations. So that is why nothing is going to happen on this front. Even if they bury an aeroplane the ATSB can't blame CASA.

[Capt Fathom]

CASA didn’t hesitate to ground Ansett. Why would Qantas be any different?

[aseriesofleftturns]

Delusional if any of you think CASA care or are getting involved in any capacity.

Their engineers supposedly planning to go on strike in a couple of weeks - the hits keep coming

[higgiflyer1]

Allot of movement

[1234fly]

Alot of unhappy pilots and cabin crew. Over worked, underpaid. Talks across the board of strikes. Many leaving for greener pastures as soon as they can. ****SHOW.

[Lookleft]

CASA didn’t hesitate to ground Ansett. Why would Qantas be any different?

Ansett was never grounded by CASA. There were some issues with the 767 maintenance records though. CASA did ground Tiger though for not having its back office functions sorted.

[Icarus2001]

https://www.afr.com/politics/safety-the-key-issue-not-airlines-survival-20010417-k0v9e

Well they grounded the fleet of 767s.

[aseriesofleftturns]

Alot of unhappy pilots and cabin crew. Over worked, underpaid. Talks across the board of strikes. Many leaving for greener pastures as soon as they can. ****SHOW.

You'll never see Pilots strike or take any kind of industrial action. Too spineless and content with no protections, working days off for pittance.

[Servo]

You'll never see Pilots strike or take any kind of industrial action. Too spineless and content with no protections, working days off for pittance.

I agree. Sad, but true. We can only blame ourselves for it. I expect JH at Virgin was VERY WELL briefed how compliant the unions and pilot group would be and she offered an appropriate pay cut for Flight Crew.

[ShandywithSugar]

CASA didn’t hesitate to ground Ansett. Why would Qantas be any different?

Network Aviation is not Qantas.

Over worked While my mainline mate worked at Bunnings and Woolworths? Must have been terrible.

[aussieflyboy]

You'll never see Pilots strike or take any kind of industrial action. Too spineless and content with no protections, working days off for pittance.

NJS pilots conducted industrial action in 2017. They are now the highest paid regional Jet operation in the country…

[aseriesofleftturns]

NJS pilots conducted industrial action in 2017. They are now the highest paid regional Jet operation in the country…

Was talking specifically about the NAA crew.

Unfortunately seems like NJS are about to take a significant hit.

Out of curiosity, what do the NAA union reps/pilot council actually do? They've been very quiet over the course and their current EBA seemingly reflects that.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Unfortunately seems like NJS are about to take a significant hit.


Perhaps, but QF are taking a huge hit right now due to lack of crew. Sectors cancelled left, right and centre and pilots being begged to turn up on days off at great expense to the establishment. My union has suggested the pilots hold their ground and now is the time to do so. Qantas can’t keep telling themselves and their shareholders that everything is fine because it is far from it and if this week is anything to go by, many NJS pilots won’t care who flies the new aircraft because they will have had their Atlas (etc) application fast tracked. NAA will also continue to be the revolving door until management is removed and replaced with something more akin to leadership.

[airdualbleedfault]

However here is the conundrum: If you were the FOI responsible would you want to become "famous" by taking a stand and upsetting QF? Or just business as usual collect your salary and 15.4% super?
You also have the issue that if you did take a stand it may get overruled from those above you anyway who may or may not be in the Chairman's Lounge or have other aspirations. So that is why nothing is going to happen on this front. Even if they bury an aeroplane the ATSB can't blame CASA.
I take your point Nev and it's not a bad one, although would you want to be the assigned FOI when/if Notwork put a smoking hole in the Pilbara? (I do see the irony in the last time this almost happened not being a smoking hole as they had no fuel :hmm:

[ActiveLooker]

Business update to introduce a big wig from VARA joining NAA in a middle management role but still no sign of the GMFO. Some big personalities and egos swimming in the fish bowl. Get your tickets, it’s going to be an interesting show. I do feel for the crew doing the daily slog with no real leadership or support.

[aseriesofleftturns]

Business update to introduce a big wig from VARA joining NAA in a middle management role but still no sign of the GMFO. Some big personalities and egos swimming in the fish bowl. Get your tickets, it’s going to be an interesting show. I do feel for the crew doing the daily slog with no real leadership or support.

Agreed, but at least they're well renumera.... Disregard.

[aussieflyboy]

Agreed, but at least they're well renumera.... Disregard.

A simple vote for PIA would resolve the remuneration (or lack there of) issue… where’s that Pilot Union?

[ActiveLooker]

A simple vote for PIA would resolve the remuneration (or lack there of) issue… where’s that Pilot Union?
Pilot union…..what’s that! Union reps are too busy feathering their own nest rather than securing a solid foundation for the future growth. PIA, how dare you! The reps starfish’ just puckered. Oh, it’s ok now, they all got their promotions.

[aseriesofleftturns]

Pilot union…..what’s that! Union reps are too busy feathering their own nest rather than securing a solid foundation for the future growth. PIA, how dare you! The reps starfish’ just puckered. Oh, it’s ok now, they all got their promotions.

Perhaps the most accurate sentiment I've come across on here.

[kimbobimbo]

Pilot union…..what’s that! Union reps are too busy feathering their own nest rather than securing a solid foundation for the future growth. PIA, how dare you! The reps starfish’ just puckered. Oh, it’s ok now, they all got their promotions.

So let me get this right friend, you believe our current mess is a result of your colleagues who as you say are feathering their nests, as opposed to blaming the current group of ‘middle managers’?

You are wrong. Current management has actively sought to ignore existing pilot agreements. ‘Rip up the protocol’ I heard one of them say once. ‘Protocol princesses’ another. Not to mention FIFO. Just because we weren’t stood down ‘current’ management looks down their noses at us because we are ‘lucky to have a job’. I’m sick of it.

I feel incredibly lucky to have avoided the worst of covid, and expected worse than I got. I don’t deserve the last two years of pay more than anyone else but I did the work…

Don’t take pot shots at your colleagues for god sake you twits! The reason we are here now is because our management is filled with peeps who can’t understand how we aren’t kissing their butts every day just to be employed! As a previous post said, nothing will improve until they go.

[aseriesofleftturns]

So let me get this right friend, you believe our current mess is a result of your colleagues who as you say are feathering their nests, as opposed to blaming the current group of ‘middle managers’?

You are delusional, blind in fact. Current management has actively sought to ignore existing pilot agreements. ‘Rip up the protocol’ I heard one of them say once. ‘Protocol princesses’ another. Not to mention FIFO. Just because we weren’t stood down ‘current’ management looks down their arrogant noses at us because we are ‘lucky to have a job’. I’m sick of it.

I feel incredibly lucky to have avoided the worst of covid, and expected worse than I got. I don’t deserve the last two years of pay more than anyone else but I did the work…

Don’t take pot shots at your colleagues for god sake you twits! The reason we are here now is because our management is filled with peeps who can’t understand how we aren’t kissing their butts every day just to be employed! As a previous post said, nothing will improve until they go.

When you say management, do you also infer the pilot council and union reps?

[ActiveLooker]

So let me get this right friend, you believe our current mess is a result of your colleagues who as you say are feathering their nests, as opposed to blaming the current group of ‘middle managers’?

You are delusional, blind in fact. Current management has actively sought to ignore existing pilot agreements. ‘Rip up the protocol’ I heard one of them say once. ‘Protocol princesses’ another. Not to mention FIFO. Just because we weren’t stood down ‘current’ management looks down their arrogant noses at us because we are ‘lucky to have a job’. I’m sick of it.

I feel incredibly lucky to have avoided the worst of covid, and expected worse than I got. I don’t deserve the last two years of pay more than anyone else but I did the work…

Don’t take pot shots at your colleagues for god sake you twits! The reason we are here now is because our management is filled with peeps who can’t understand how we aren’t kissing their butts every day just to be employed! As a previous post said, nothing will improve until they go. DELUSIONAL? No, my friend, perhaps you need to read the threads a little more closely. I never once blamed the unions for the current mess at NAA. That, my friend, is the complete and utter mismanagement by inexperienced princesses. What I said regarding unions was that they refuse to be unionists. They happily take monthly dues but deliver nothing. PIA was mentioned and supported by my post. Perhaps union reps and council members should start doing what they claim they do, look out for the pilot group.

[Hoofharted]

Gee some real brave types in here at the moment. Brave enough to hide behind the blanket of anonymity afforded by this website and slag off individuals actually trying to make a positive contribution, with baseless slander.
I'll bet you're the type that gob off and beat your chests in the flight deck or in the crew room but turn to water (puckered starfish and all) if confronted personally. Have you tried to make a contribution yourselves or do you prefer to stand anonymously on the sidelines and take the easy option?
What "monthly dues" are you asserting that these individuals receive? What do you Know of the path to PIA that must be followed prior to being granted by FW to take PIA? I'd suggest not much, as it takes more than PIA was mentioned and supported by my post. But of course you know all of this which is why you are actively involved in trying to help out right?

[ActiveLooker]

Gee some real brave types in here at the moment. Brave enough to hide behind the blanket of anonymity afforded by this website and slag off individuals actually trying to make a positive contribution, with baseless slander.
I'll bet you're the type that gob off and beat your chests in the flight deck or in the crew room but turn to water (puckered starfish and all) if confronted personally. Have you tried to make a contribution yourselves or do you prefer to stand anonymously on the sidelines and take the easy option?
What "monthly dues" are you asserting that these individuals receive? What do you Know of the path to PIA that must be followed prior to being granted by FW to take PIA? I'd suggest not much, as it takes more than . But of course you know all of this which is why you are actively involved in trying to help out right? Wow, welcome to the debate Hoof, albeit a bit aggressive . Slander you say. Perhaps your definition is different to that contained in most dictionaries. Please enlighten me, and the forum, with the positive results the unions and council have managed to achieve for NAA pilots. You talk big yet deliver nothing other than an irate rant. Oh, you must be a rep. Monthly dues are the fees charged by the respective union bodies for representation. Where is that again? Anyway, off topic. Would prefer to get back to “Where’s Wally”.

[Hoofharted]

Slander the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation. Direct dictionary quote, do you own one?

Your cerebral contribution Union reps are too busy feathering their own nest rather than securing a solid foundation for the future growth. annnd Oh, it’s ok now, they all got their promotions.. Assertions made by you without proof or reason, made only in an ugly (but rather week) attempt to slander the reps.

Just as a heads-up (I'm sure you're already aware of it as you're clearly such a well informed individual), today, and despite their unions best advice to vote NO, the NJS pilot body voted YES to their proposed EBA. So when they start to complain that they have no life and that their roster stability simply does not exist, who is to blame? The Union and its reps who urged a NO vote, or the pilot body? Same for NAA over four years ago - oh well, must be the union reps fault eh? At least the reps where able to negotiate some kind of rostering stability protocols from a baseline of nothing (buy you'd know that as well right?)
Perhaps you could give us some examples of your positive contribution to the pilot's terms and conditions in your part of the world. As for playing "Where's Wally", judging by your location I would say he is clearly located under a rock in Hong Kong, actively "looking" but contributing nothing.

[ActiveLooker]

Slander Direct dictionary quote, do you own one?

Your cerebral contribution annnd . Assertions made by you without proof or reason, made only in an ugly (but rather week) attempt to slander the reps.

Just as a heads-up (I'm sure you're already aware of it as you're clearly such a well informed individual), today, and despite their unions best advice to vote NO, the NJS pilot body voted YES to their proposed EBA. So when they start to complain that they have no life and that their roster stability simply does not exist, who is to blame? The Union and its reps who urged a NO vote, or the pilot body? Same for NAA over four years ago - oh well, must be the union reps fault eh? At least the reps where able to negotiate some kind of rostering stability protocols from a baseline of nothing (buy you'd know that as well right?)
Perhaps you could give us some examples of your positive contribution to the pilot's terms and conditions in your part of the world. As for playing "Where's Wally", judging by your location I would say he is clearly located under a rock in Hong Kong, actively "looking" but contributing nothing.
general comments stating fact are not damaging individual reputation. Get off the roids dude!

[aussieflyboy]

Even though NJS pilots (forcibly most would say) voted to fly a 20T heavier aircraft for the same money, Network 320 pilots are still the bin chickens of Australian regional aviation…

[Slippery_Pete]

Network 320 pilots are still the bin chickens of Australian regional aviation…

While the NJS and short-haul deals are a crock, if there’s any silver lining, industry wide it’s a good outcome for pilot conditions in Australia compared to NAA being involved. They’d have sold their souls to fly them.

[Hoofharted]

That's true if it's factual. You make no statements based in fact, only some childish attempt at character assassination.
I asked you a few direct questions to which it seems you have no answer, preferring instead to gob off again with some inane throw away line. If you have facts then present them here rather than continue with your with p1$$ and wind in place of a factual presentation.
“Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.” Attributed to Abraham Lincoln , particularly salient when it comes to you.

[Hoofharted]

While the NJS and short-haul deals are a crock
So if this is true who is to blame for accepting the deal? I know I didn't vote for it.

[airdualbleedfault]

Anyway, back on topic, I've heard the bloke from VARA loves a challenge, well I guess he's got one :}

[Nuthanewbusdriver]

Ego’s.
Alpha males. (and a new one to boot)
Greasy pole climbers.
Rapid expansion.
dangerous expansion.
Industrial mayhem.
Toothless regulator.
Regurgitation of inept industry management/managers.
Ridiculous training loads.
Misleading employees about management tenure.
SME’S (just ask then) from HK and the sandpit that, naturally, know better.
Junior first commands.
Dangerous reverse gradients.
Numerous operational incidents.

Nothing to see here….. :rolleyes:

[aseriesofleftturns]

Ego’s.
Alpha males. (and a new one to boot)
Greasy pole climbers.
Rapid expansion.
dangerous expansion.
Industrial mayhem.
Toothless regulator.
Regurgitation of inept industry management/managers.
Ridiculous training loads.
Misleading employees about management tenure.
SME’S (just ask then) from HK and the sandpit that, naturally, know better.
Junior first commands.
Dangerous reverse gradients.
Numerous operational incidents.

Nothing to see here….. :rolleyes:

Bit harsh!

[Chronic Snoozer]

Ego’s.
SME’S (just ask then) from HK and the sandpit that, naturally, know better.


Like all the Aussies overseas that, you know, "know better"?

I've always thought you should take advice on its merits rather than simply focus on the person providing said advice.

[aseriesofleftturns]

Will be fun watching this lot try and crew flights moving forwards. Already struggling to crew flights, seeing daily cancellations on the dutch oven and now crew resigning in numbers, prospective employees pulling out of ground courses in numbers etc.

[Zeta_Reticuli]

Will be fun watching this lot try and crew flights moving forwards. Already struggling to crew flights, seeing daily cancellations on the dutch oven and now crew resigning in numbers, prospective employees pulling out of ground courses in numbers etc.

Where are they all going?

[walesregent]

Where are they all going?

A lot new starters still have right of return with their previous employer (or connections at the very least) and will be commuting while their family stays on the east coast (and the roster definitely doesn’t favour commuters, to put it mildly). It’s difficult to imagine a set of conditions less favourable to staff retention so it’s likely the training department will be busy training new people for the same positions (again) for a long time to come.

[ActiveLooker]

A lot new starters still have right of return with their previous employer (or connections at the very least) and will be commuting while their family stays on the east coast (and the roster definitely doesn’t favour commuters, to put it mildly). It’s difficult to imagine a set of conditions less favourable to staff retention so it’s likely the training department will be busy training new people for the same positions (again) for a long time to come. Hahahahaha…..they want to hope they only loose 4 pilots a year. Takes them 10 months to train a pilot from what I’ve seen. Mate was on training reserve for almost 4 months.

[walesregent]

Hahahahaha…..they want to hope they only loose 4 pilots a year. Takes them 10 months to train a pilot from what I’ve seen. Mate was on training reserve for almost 4 months.

They’ve never had mass attrition before so they don’t understand the risk of it occurring now. The difference being that they’ve traditionally hired locals (and/or low time guys and gals) and then only worked them about 40 hours a month. The nature of the operation is changing and the lifestyle is going. People will do the basic arithmetic and reason that if the roster is going to suck as much as it does everywhere else they may as well get paid for it or at least work closer to home.

Add to that everyone knew the EA sucked, but spending time with a group of Jetstar and mainline secondees made everyone aware of the exact details of in which ways it sucked. A lot of people are now looking for greener pastures or looking to stick it to the company with the next EA.

[Icarus2001]

They’ve never had mass attrition before so they don’t understand the risk of it occurring now.

A lot of people are now looking for greener pastures or looking to stick it to the company with the next EA.

I believe these two observations apply to quite a few Australian companies right now. I have never heard of so many pilots looking at the USA or thinking of jumping ship from what was a steady job,
Perhaps the events of the last two and a half years has affected how people view loyalty to a company. I don’t know but I do sense a change in attitude amongst pilots I thought were planning on staying where they are,

[Zeta_Reticuli]

I believe these two observations apply to quite a few Australian companies right now. I have never heard of so many pilots looking at the USA or thinking of jumping ship from what was a steady job,
Perhaps the events of the last two and a half years has affected how people view loyalty to a company. I don’t know but I do sense a change in attitude amongst pilots I thought were planning on staying where they are,

Australian aviation is a f..king joke!
Why anyone even bothers getting out of bed to fly for the likes of Alliance or Network for the salary they are offering is beyond me! As far as I am concerned they can go suck it! And anyone accepting these conditions should be pulled aside by the union, its time for an Australia wide pilot strike, enough is enough!

[AerialPerspective]

Allot of movement

What?? A movement in allotments??

[longjohn]

Australian aviation is a f..king joke!
Why anyone even bothers getting out of bed to fly for the likes of Alliance or Network for the salary they are offering is beyond me! As far as I am concerned they can go suck it! And anyone accepting these conditions should be pulled aside by the union, its time for an Australia wide pilot strike, enough is enough!

Aaaaaaand history repeats itself, just 33 years later…..

Except in this case, those who sat out (hung out) their colleagues last time are not just international.

[MajorLemond]

Considering the trajectory of the group and recent agreements getting voted up, chances of NAA getting an even remotely better deal at the next EA "negotiation" are laughable. While lifestyle wise it's a great gig (currently) - as more planes get added and flying increases everyone is going to feel the pain of a sub - standard agreement. 😕

[ActiveLooker]

Considering the trajectory of the group and recent agreements getting voted up, chances of NAA getting an even remotely better deal at the next EA "negotiation" are laughable. While lifestyle wise it's a great gig (currently) - as more planes get added and flying increases everyone is going to feel the pain of a sub - standard agreement. 😕 agreed! Inexperienced management team promoting other inexperienced people who won’t threaten their positions. You work your career to be able to live comfortably, eat out occasionally, have a boat, JetSki, toys etc and send the kids to private school. After tax and school fees for two kids, below the minimum wage. Fark that! If any of the young guys joining stay longer than 500hrs they are fools at the moment. Good paying jobs everywhere except Oz.

[Likeasomebody]

Bit harsh!


It can't be that bad can it?

[aseriesofleftturns]

Considering the trajectory of the group and recent agreements getting voted up, chances of NAA getting an even remotely better deal at the next EA "negotiation" are laughable. While lifestyle wise it's a great gig (currently) - as more planes get added and flying increases everyone is going to feel the pain of a sub - standard agreement. 😕

Great gig with lifestyle? You still talking about Network? Haha. Don't know anyone that's not getting hammered, 5-6 day weeks, day stays, doubles etc. While you've got FO's agreeing to work days off for $160 odd bucks, what hope is there 😂

[davidclarke]

Great gig with lifestyle? You still talking about Network? Haha. Don't know anyone that's not getting hammered, 5-6 day weeks, day stays, doubles etc. While you've got FO's agreeing to work days off for $160 odd bucks, what hope is there 😂


May I ask what a ‘day stay’ is?

[aussieflyboy]

May I ask what a ‘day stay’ is?

Are you a Cadet or Instructor by any chance?

[Icarus2001]

May I ask what a ‘day stay’ is? I assume (foolishly) that aseriesofleftturns is referring to the practise of flying to a mine site, being provided a "donga" for the day and then flying home much later. Sometimes with the added bonus of mining camp food and a play in the gym or swim in the pool.

[davidclarke]

I assume (foolishly) that aseriesofleftturns is referring to the practise of flying to a mine site, being provided a "donga" for the day and then flying home much later. Sometimes with the added bonus of mining camp food and a play in the gym or swim in the pool.

Ahh gotya. When I was in NT doing GA they were called a ‘day wait’. My bad. Same thing I guess. Just didn’t expect it in an airline.

[twentyelevens]

Just didn’t expect it in an airline.

In Australia, all aviation is GA. Some GA operators just have jets.

[Australopithecus]

In Australia, all aviation is GA. Some GA operators just have jets.

i wish that I had said that.

[Karunch]

I believe these two observations apply to quite a few Australian companies right now. I have never heard of so many pilots looking at the USA or thinking of jumping ship from what was a steady job,
Perhaps the events of the last two and a half years has affected how people view loyalty to a company. I don’t know but I do sense a change in attitude amongst pilots I thought were planning on staying where they are,

Its termed career mobility & it seems Australian pilots have finally caught on. Most other professions have known of this for a generation.

Perhaps airline management will come to realise that looking after their sought after professionals is the cheaper option.

[walesregent]

I assume (foolishly) that aseriesofleftturns is referring to the practise of flying to a mine site, being provided a "donga" for the day and then flying home much later. Sometimes with the added bonus of mining camp food and a play in the gym or swim in the pool.

Often associated with an URTI.

[walesregent]

Considering the trajectory of the group and recent agreements getting voted up, chances of NAA getting an even remotely better deal at the next EA "negotiation" are laughable. While lifestyle wise it's a great gig (currently) - as more planes get added and flying increases everyone is going to feel the pain of a sub - standard agreement. 😕

We’ll see. NAA isn’t in the same boat as NJS. The operation can’t seamlessly be taken up by a different AOC and pay and conditions may in fact be worse than the award (if we elect to revert to that the company might find crewing all the early mornings and ‘all dayers’ a bit challenging).

There’s obviously a lot of blood in the water, and the spin machine is running out of alternative facts (I’ve never seen the media turn on qantas like this before) so individuals might collectively come to the realisation better pay and conditions are obtainable. I could be wrong, and the NAA pilot group could fudge it up completely, but I hope they realise that these are not the same set of negotiating conditions from even two months ago. Fingers crossed that the engineers really shank them and restore confidence amongst other employee groups to go up against the cancer that is current qantas management.

[172heavy]

Ahh gotya. When I was in NT doing GA they were called a ‘day wait’. My bad. Same thing I guess. Just didn’t expect it in an airline.
Unplanned day waits are the best (wheels up landing)

[josephfeatherweight]

Often associated with an URTI.
Only if you're lucky... :E

[Chronic Snoozer]

Often associated with an URTI.

So FIFO? (fine in, f*$ked out)

[walesregent]

So FIFO? (fine in, f*$ked out)

So true 😂. Usually the crew become symptomatic before sign on so the duty becomes a turn around for their replacements. If the client was really bothered by this they would insist on some sort of incentive for the operating crew.

[chickenman]

Oh, I’m confused. I had heard that at Network FIFO stood for Fit in or F Off?

[ShandywithSugar]

The operation can’t seamlessly be taken up by a different AOC

Like back to the B737 from where the majority of Networks work is from?.

[walesregent]

Like back to the B737 from where the majority of Networks work is from?.

Maybe, but do you reckon they have the capacity for that at the moment (or anytime soon)?

[MajorLemond]

We’ll see. NAA isn’t in the same boat as NJS. The operation can’t seamlessly be taken up by a different AOC and pay and conditions may in fact be worse than the award (if we elect to revert to that the company might find crewing all the early mornings and ‘all dayers’ a bit challenging).

There’s obviously a lot of blood in the water, and the spin machine is running out of alternative facts (I’ve never seen the media turn on qantas like this before) so individuals might collectively come to the realisation better pay and conditions are obtainable. I could be wrong, and the NAA pilot group could fudge it up completely, but I hope they realise that these are not the same set of negotiating conditions from even two months ago. Fingers crossed that the engineers really shank them and restore confidence amongst other employee groups to go up against the cancer that is current qantas management.

You make some solid points, but unfortunately I don't have a lot of hope due to the fact that group management will go to the ends of the earth rather than offer a better deal to anyone. They will not set a precedent and make other groups think they can get a better deal.

I'd say JQ are in the best position to put their feet down because it's an operation that makes a huge amount of money for the group and there is nowhere to farm the flying out to. What will help is the fact they are worked to the absolute bone (and have been for many years) and this should produce a solid amount of unity amongst our pilot brethren, so the gloves are going to come off (on both sides) in an industrial dispute.

It will get very interesting for sure.

[FN4567]

[QUOTE=ShandywithSugar;11260099]Like back to the B737 from where the majority of Networks work is from?.[/QUOTE

[FN4567]

You'll never see Pilots strike or take any kind of industrial action. Too spineless and content with no protections, working days off for pittance.

No they just sit in here and act as keyboard warriors

[aseriesofleftturns]

No they just sit in here and act as keyboard warriors

Hence nothing will change. All talk and no action. Will remain the bottom feeder for a long time to come.

[ShandywithSugar]

Umm that was Gina Rineharta saying not Network….

Darwin Broome Port Headland Karratha Newman Kalgoorlie plus a list of FMG mines.

Maybe, but do you reckon they have the capacity for that at the moment (or anytime soon)?

Absolutely but the industrial wedge wouldn't be effective.

[Buttscratcher]

Have things changed much in Network since their last EA?

[AviatoR21]

When things were grim during the pandemic every group pilot applied to Network happy to accept the terms. Why no backlash then?

Network has provided plenty of opportunities for its pilots and a much quicker upgrade than any other group airline.

Sure the EBA isn’t the best, but now times are good they definitely have a good argument to fight for more.

[Buttscratcher]

Maybe all their work will go to Cobham, since they quickly signed their EA to get the 'new gear'

[Icarus2001]

Cobham has not signed an EA. Do you mean NJS, the 717 operator?

[aussieflyboy]

Maybe all their work will go to Cobham, since they quickly signed their EA to get the 'new gear'

I think you’ll find “Cobham’s” (they were an Aussie owned company called NJS before Cobham bought it) recently signed EA is still 20% better then Networks…

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

When things were grim during the pandemic every group pilot applied to Network happy to accept the terms. Why no backlash then?

Seriously? That’s probably the dumbest question I’ve ever seen asked in these forums. And that’s saying something.

[Buttscratcher]

I think you’ll find “Cobham’s” (you’ll find they were an Aussie owned company called NJS before Cobham bought it) recently signed EA is still 20% better then Networks…

Fair call, then I would expect Network's EBA to work out significantly better this time then, right?
Perhaps on par with Jetstar?
Considering they fly the same equipment, but with Q full fare pax, it's not that much of a stretch.

[ShandywithSugar]

When things were grim during the pandemic every group pilot applied to Network happy to accept the terms. Why no backlash then?


JQ PER base closure yet Network hired from east coast bases - great opportunities indeed.

Network has provided plenty of opportunities for its pilots and a much quicker upgrade than any other group airline.

A charter company was bought out and pumped with expansion. Everyone knows what happened.

Perhaps on par with Jetstar? Boy oh boy! :-))))))))))))))))))))

[Buttscratcher]

Sounds reasonable from outside.
Jetstar is that low cost bogan airline, and Network is that GA company, now home to just about every Expat throughout the known world.
.....not a stretch to imagine at all Sugar

[ShandywithSugar]

Sounds reasonable from outside.
Jetstar is that low cost bogan airline, and Network is that GA company, now home to just about every Expat throughout the known world.
.....not a stretch to imagine at all Sugar
:ok: every pilot in the group can only hope.

[ExtraShot]

When things were grim during the pandemic every group pilot applied to Network happy to accept the terms.


Did they really!? 🤣

The vast majority actually went nowhere near it.

Almost all of Those that did go from QF bailed as soon as they could. A huge percentage of Perth based Jetstar pilots with thousands of hours A320experience who DID want the job and DID want to be there were overlooked…

Must be a great operation.

[AviatoR21]

Well they all came didn’t they?

They left to go back to their original jobs like anyone would, most weren’t from WA…consider that?

The Perth based JQ pilots was purely political, we all know that. Maybe some of them didn’t do that well in the hiring process?

[ActiveLooker]

Well they all came didn’t they?

They left to go back to their original jobs like anyone would, most weren’t from WA…consider that?

The Perth based JQ pilots was purely political, we all know that. Maybe some of them didn’t do that well in the hiring process? isn’t that what some would call scabbing

[Buttscratcher]

No, it isn't.
That word is reserved.
In this scenario the position had to be advertised internally didn't it?
Dont know much about this, but under the Q umbrella, all applicants are/were treated equally.
They did boost their wage with Jobkeeper though, so that would have been a plus over the NAA folks.

[kimbobimbo]

Did they really!? 🤣

The vast majority actually went nowhere near it.

Almost all of Those that did go from QF bailed as soon as they could. A huge percentage of Perth based Jetstar pilots with thousands of hours A320experience who DID want the job and DID want to be there were overlooked…

Must be a great operation.

CEO didn’t want any of the PIA troublemakers in the operation so that meant many of the Perth base didn’t get a look in. He said so in various meetings. I thought it stank but that was previous glorious leaders decision.

[ExtraShot]

CEO didn’t want any of the PIA troublemakers in the operation so that meant many of the Perth base didn’t get a look in. He said so in various meetings. I thought it stank but that was previous glorious leaders decision.

…and so you see, they are $h!t scared of people who might help you organize to agitate for better conditions. Anyone who might rock the boat of the ‘well behaved’ and subservient. Those that dutifully answer the phone on days off to keep the show on the road. You are their industrial wedge and they MUST protect it! No matter what! They know you are well and truly overdue for improvement, and they will do and say anything to prevent you taking an industrial stand to improve.

You’ll have been promised the world, commands on all those new jets you’re getting, but only if you behave! All those NEOs that are definitely comi… oh wait. Never mind.

[drshmoo]

When things were grim during the pandemic every group pilot applied to Network happy to accept the terms. Why no backlash then?

Network has provided plenty of opportunities for its pilots and a much quicker upgrade than any other group airline.

Sure the EBA isn’t the best, but now times are good they definitely have a good argument to fight for more.

Hahahaha one of the most delusional posts on Pprune ever!

Network is being used an industrial tool to lower the conditions of every Australian pilot. You are the baseline jet EBA. The absolute floor.



In saying that. It is in everyone’s interest in Australian aviation that Network get a significant pay rise with better terms and conditions. You deserve it.

The old QF IR mantra, we have a wage policy of 3%, is about to get a real testing (QF Engineers PIA) and will be hopefully thrown out with as much gusto as some recent toilet paper and eggs were thrown in Mosman.

[ActiveLooker]

CEO didn’t want any of the PIA troublemakers in the operation so that meant many of the Perth base didn’t get a look in. He said so in various meetings. I thought it stank but that was previous glorious leaders decision.
did you speak up or sit back and suck it? Typical manager!

[Icarus2001]

You are the baseline jet EBA. The absolute floor.

I thought that was Alliance?

[AviatoR21]

Hahahaha one of the most delusional posts on Pprune ever!

Network is being used an industrial tool to lower the conditions of every Australian pilot. You are the baseline jet EBA. The absolute floor.



In saying that. It is in everyone’s interest in Australian aviation that Network get a significant pay rise with better terms and conditions. You deserve it.

The old QF IR mantra, we have a wage policy of 3%, is about to get a real testing (QF Engineers PIA) and will be hopefully thrown out with as much gusto as some recent toilet paper and eggs were thrown in Mosman.

Nothing delusional about it mate it’s simply facts. I’m all for Network getting better T&C’s.

[Busbitch]

This forum is a perfect example of what's wrong with the industry, pilots anonymously hating on hard working colleagues instead of supporting each other for the greater good and a brighter future together..

[Servo]

This forum is a perfect example of what's wrong with the industry, pilots anonymously hating on hard working colleagues instead of supporting each other for the greater good and a brighter future together..

Agreed mate. It starts off in GA and moves up the ranks with them. Sad state of affairs.

[twentyelevens]

This forum is a perfect example of what's wrong with the industry, pilots anonymously hating on hard working colleagues instead of supporting each other for the greater good and a brighter future together..

And how management just laughs and laughs.

[Australopithecus]

I think he meant that what the manager said is typical of the caliber of management that we enjoy in this country. I didn’t read that he was accusing you if being that typical manager.

I could be wrong: I am on sick leave after all.

[Jack D. Ripper]

Manager? Ha! The only thing I manage is my sick leave mate.

You don’t have to be in a meeting to hear about what happens in meeting friend!

I'm with Active....confused as previously Kimbo stated:

He said so in various meetings.

[onezeroonethree]

When things were grim during the pandemic every group pilot applied to Network happy to accept the terms. Why no backlash then?

Network has provided plenty of opportunities for its pilots and a much quicker upgrade than any other group airline.

Sure the EBA isn’t the best, but now times are good they definitely have a good argument to fight for more.

Woopty doo. Imagine being an a320 NAA skipper sitting on your bay in Perth only to look left to see a FO in a plane without the word "Link" on the side of their plane earning more than you. Some command.

Do their FO's know bus and train drivers can earn almost their wage but don't put up with all the BS professional pilots do on a daily basis?

[onezeroonethree]

You’re totally off the money there friend. They don’t work their day off for 160, they work their day off and still get it later on (within 7 days). Now it just so happens that most stoopid pilots just forgo their industrial right and take that day owed as a day in leu, which they never get back… not the way the ea was agreed too but the company loves it especially RH (RIP).

So really we agree, pilots are stoopid, but the EA isn’t as bad as you make it out. If they were smart they’d use the EA to their advantage and get on the IPD train, just need to insist on it being rerostered within 7 days as the EA says.

I am constantly disappointed in my colleagues lack of understanding of their industrial rights. The peeps I work with don’t even know their own EBA, it’s no wonder we have such a terrible rep. Pull you socks up kids, read you EA and stand up for yourself. Unless of course there’s a giant, KY smothered pole in front of you. In which case fill your slippery boots! I’ll enjoy watching the antics haha!

They don't get $160 for a day off? You're right. They get like double that... $320-ish, don't they? Why would you bother getting out of bed at 3am for that?

[Chronic Snoozer]

You're right. They get like double that... $320-ish, don't they? Why would you bother getting out of bed at 3am for that?

Someone please tell me when we've reached peak 'like'. It's now snuck into written word. :mad::ugh:

[ActiveLooker]

Back to topic….is the CP back or still MIA? Starting to sound much “like” a removal from office (again).

[Jc31]

Back to topic….is the CP back or still MIA? Starting to sound much “like” a removal from office (again).

still MIA presumed KIA

[ActiveLooker]

still MIA presumed KIA
what, no farewell party?? I suppose it’s hard to find phone boxes these days.

[FN4567]

Seriously wtaf is wrong with you people? If not getting your EA where you want it, or not getting paid enough - move on, nobody is holding a gun to your head. It’s free to be kind, just try that at the very least.

[walesregent]

Back to topic….is the CP back or still MIA? Starting to sound much “like” a removal from office (again).

Allegedly sighted in Sydney a couple of days ago. Not sure if that was at HQ or at Luna Park but that’s the closest thing we have to proof of life.

[Jc31]

Like back to the B737 from where the majority of Networks work is from?.
was bae146 work with njs before the 737. These routes weren’t created for the qf 737

[SOPS]

Some please tell me when we've reached peak 'like'. It's now snuck into written word. :mad::ugh:

Thats Gold!!! Ten out of Ten👍👍

[onezeroonethree]

Some please tell me when we've reached peak 'like'. It's now snuck into written word. :mad::ugh:

Are you like... triggered?

[walesregent]

was bae146 work with njs before the 737. These routes weren’t created for the qf 737

Agreed. The original reply to my comment about Network’s operation being difficult to replace was pretty pass agg, and the kind of sentiment that would align with management’s divide and conquer wet dream. That said I didn’t bite because I am very interested in weakness’s that leave us open to bad agreements and I was hoping to get more discussion going on the subject.

I am quite interested in getting something done about mobilising people towards a better agreement. This forum could be quite useful for that, but the infighting basically kills it. If we (qantas group employees anyway) could all remember that the enemy lives (10% of the time at any rate) in a toilet paper covered Mosman mansion rather than the flight deck of an affiliate airline we might actually manage that.

[Jester64]

Woopty doo. Imagine being an a320 NAA skipper sitting on your bay in Perth only to look left to see a FO in a plane without the word "Link" on the side of their plane earning more than you. Some command.


That’s very interesting. I’m sure it’s available somewhere but I’m lazy….what’s the base salary for a first year Network A320 Captain versus the base salary for a first year QF 737 F/O?. Not interested in overtime or anything, just base salary… cheers

[ActiveLooker]

That’s very interesting. I’m sure it’s available somewhere but I’m lazy….what’s the base salary for a first year Network A320 Captain versus the base salary for a first year QF 737 F/O?. Not interested in overtime or anything, just base salary… cheers
The QF guys and gals have always elevated their salaries when talking to expats at Fattys. They include allowances and overtime. Base is not that great and I applaud your question.

[Australopithecus]

First year QF 737 F/O

$145,238 for 696 hours.

extras include overtime which is typically +30% and bonuses. Allowances and super additional.

[Jester64]

First year QF 737 F/O

$145,238 for 696 hours.

.

versus $175,096 for 0 hours for a first year F100 Captain? A320 is another $20K on this?

[dr dre]

First year QF 737 F/O

$145,238 for 696 hours.

extras include overtime which is typically +30% and bonuses. Allowances and super additional.

To re-iterate the 696hrs is 53hrs min guarantee, which (in non Covid times) is rare. Optimum hours are about 71 per BP and the long term history of the fleet usually reflects a standard roster built at 65-71 hrs. Taking an average of 68 that makes $184k first year pay on the standard roster. A few years ago the average pay over the fleet was just shy of $200k, without including bonuses or allowances.

With the rostered work hours at present some FOs will gross $230-240k this FY, not including bonus or allowances.

[ActiveLooker]

To re-iterate the 696hrs is 53hrs min guarantee, which (in non Covid times) is rare. Optimum hours are about 71 per BP and the long term history of the fleet usually reflects 65-71 hrs per BP. Taking an average of 68 that makes $184k first year pay on the standard roster. A few years ago the average pay over the fleet was just shy of $200k. And then additional hours above rostered, allowances and bonus on top of that.

With the rostered work hours at present some FOs will gross $230-240k this FY, not including bonus or allowances.
so, to reiterate, QF First Officers on A LOT LESS than A320 NAA Captains sitting at the gate in Perth. Life style leading up to retirement I think I’ll take the NAA gig. Oh, that’s right, QF F/Os are on that salary for 15-18 years

[Jester64]

To re-iterate the 696hrs is 53hrs min guarantee, which (in non Covid times) is rare. Optimum hours are about 71 per BP and the long term history of the fleet usually reflects 65-71 hrs per BP. Taking an average of 68 that makes $184k first year pay on the standard roster. A few years ago the average pay over the fleet was just shy of $200k. And then additional hours above rostered, allowances and bonus on top of that.

With the rostered work hours at present some FOs will gross $230-240k this FY, not including bonus or allowances.

ok so a first year 320 skipper averaging 68 per month adds pretty much bugger all at network, but still grosses $199K (versus $184K). Obviously there comes a point where a 737 FO working his ass off makes more than a 320 skipper who does the same; but he won’t make what the skipper makes by doing just 53. Horses for courses. I get it the pay is very sub-standard, especially coz we are comparing a skipper pay with an F/O pay. But what that original comment should have read was that the F/O needs to work hard each month to achieve what the skipper can do by just sitting on his ass.

[ActiveLooker]

ok so a first year 320 skipper averaging 68 per month adds pretty much bugger all at network, but still grosses $199K (versus $184K). Obviously there comes a point where a 737 FO working his ass off makes more than a 320 skipper who does the same; but he won’t make what the skipper makes by doing just 53. Horses for courses.
i did the figures and it doesn’t add up. Why would any young pilot want to join the QF institution and be brainwashed that they are the best when there is so much on offer around the World. Network is a retirement gig I hope stays an option for a while. If an F/O looms out the window of the B737 without “link” on the side and laughs at the Captain in an A320, it’s more fool him. The skipper is probably working 2 days a week and catching a lot of fish

[dr dre]

so, to reiterate, QF First Officers on A LOT LESS than A320 NAA Captains sitting at the gate in Perth. Life style leading up to retirement I think I’ll take the NAA gig. Oh, that’s right, QF F/Os are on that salary for 15-18 years

The last pay figure I get for NAA Capt is $185k on the last EBA rate. Even if there’s a bit of a pay increase for the 320 that’s still in the ballpark of what a 737 FO makes for a standard roster after 4 years, without any bonus scheme available.

15-18 year on the 73? Nah, most junior LH FO slot prior to Covid was 3 years, but I think for new joiners now 8 years is an accurate figure.

The NAA Captain could be working 2 half days a week for that money, or they could doing 5 long day sits at mines. In reality they’re probably working roughly as much as a standard SH FO is and being paid similar. That’s when the 320 isn’t doing air returns or waiting at outports for maintenance. But the guy on the mainline list has the capability to earn far more in their career and fly more different types than someone who chooses NAA. If you have less than 10 years to go and are tossing up between the two you may choose NAA for a quick command to see out your days, but anything longer than 20 years to go and you’d be nuts to choose NAA.



Anyway look at the flow of people to determine what’s the better option. How many mainline pilots now resigning to go to NAA? (Hint, it’s zero). Versus how many NAA pilots resigning to go to mainline or elsewhere (Hint, it’s plenty).

[ActiveLooker]

The last pay figure I get for NAA Capt is $185k on the last EBA rate. Even if there’s a bit of a pay increase for the 320 that’s still in the ballpark of what a 737 FO makes for a standard roster after 4 years, without any bonus scheme available.

15-18 year on the 73? Nah, most junior LH FO slot prior to Covid was 3 years, but I think for new joiners now 8 years is an accurate figure.

The NAA Captain could be working 2 half days a week for that money, or they could doing 5 long day sits at mines. In reality they’re probably working roughly as much as a standard SH FO is and being paid similar. That’s when the 320 isn’t doing air returns or waiting at outports for maintenance. But the guy on the mainline list has the capability to earn far more in their career and fly more different types than someone who chooses NAA. If you have less than 10 years to go and are tossing up between the two you may choose NAA for a quick command to see out your days, but anything longer than 20 years to go and you’d be nuts to choose NAA.



Anyway look at the flow of people to determine what’s the better option. How many mainline pilots now resigning to go to NAA? (Hint, it’s zero). Versus how many NAA pilots resigning to go to mainline or elsewhere (Hint, it’s plenty).
good luck with your multiple types and QF brainwashing Doctor. I’ve flown 8 types everywhere around the World and would still take an A320 at Network over your F/O slot

[Jester64]

Agree with both. Mainline if you are young enough and want to remain in AUS forever. NAA if you are chasing a quick command / Airbus time to take overseas and not look back. Or for those returning who have a command and want to work as little as possible without worrying if next month’s hours is going to be enough to make ends meet

[SandyPalms]

So, do the network guys only work 2 days a week? Or is that BS? QF wants pilots working 1000 hours a year, if Network guys aren’t doing that, I’d suspect that they eventually will, you can count on it. I guess it all depends on expansion/retirements etc….. with regard to quick commands. Plus, where in the world do you go these days?

Anyway, I’d take QF SO for 150k spending my life in London/LA/Honolulu etc…… for a few less bucks, than another 5am departure to Newman with 4 bars on my shoulder. But whatever floats your boat.

[dr dre]

good luck with your multiple types and QF brainwashing Doctor. I’ve flown 8 types everywhere around the World and would still take an A320 at Network over your F/O slotThat’s great because you have the free choice to choose any job you want. But the overwhelming consensus from the market shows mainline is the preferred gig between the two and NAA pilots are applying to go to mainline, not the other way round.

[ActiveLooker]

So, do the network guys only work 2 days a week? Or is that BS? QF wants pilots working 1000 hours a year. If Network guys aren’t doing that, I’d suspect that they eventually will, you can count on it.
and then, my friend, people wanting lifestyle will leave. Difference is, theyll
have command experience, unlike the QF career F/Os

[Capt Fathom]

I’ve flown 8 types everywhere around the World and would still take an A320 at Network over your F/O slot

Mate….. Cessnas don’t count! :E

[Gnadenburg]

All the guys coming down from Hong Kong would be millionaires many times over. Probably not liable for tax for a few years with credits from whilst abroad. Hope they’re enjoying themselves. Great flying weather and a visible horizon will be a nice change.

[ShandywithSugar]

and then, my friend, people wanting lifestyle will leave. Difference is, theyll
have command experience, unlike the QF career F/Os

Where are they leaving for lifestyle? Air Japan? Atlas? Emirates? Why do people fall over themselves to do the once Mainline Darwin return flights? You get to leave WA! :8

Like I wrote a few pages ago. Come into Network, quick experience and leave... to only return to the next Startup being used against those who stayed in Australia.

ps this thread is an absolute pisser :ok:

[dr dre]

So, do the network guys only work 2 days a week? Or is that BS? Obviously a company wants it’s pilots working efficiently, only doing two mining runs a week would not provide that. From what I gather NAA hours have increased over the years, more weekend and long day work since getting into RPT.

With shortages and lack of crew atm NAA pilots would be flying a lot more than 2 mining runs per week for the same money (minus a day off payment). And crewing numbers are biting especially in training.

and then, my friend, people wanting lifestyle will leave. Difference is, theyll
have command experience, unlike the QF career F/Os

Resignation rate from mainline for lifestyle reasons is incredibly low, if anything it would be for quicker commands. Mainline has never been a tool to get quick command hours then leave for high pay overseas. It was a long term prospect for those who don’t mind a longer wait but a more stable job based in Australia.

Yeah, you could get command hours quicker at NAA (although I’d say 7-8 years still) and head off to make money overseas, especially seeing Asia still isn’t due to reach peak pre covid capacity for another few years.

[ActiveLooker]

All the guys coming down from Hong Kong would be millionaires many times over. Probably not liable for tax for a few years with credits from whilst abroad. Hope they’re enjoying themselves. Great flying weather and a visible horizon will be a nice change.
……….😜
​​​​​​

[aussieflyboy]

How to identify QF Group Pilots when leaving the Perth Terminal at 10am:

Mainline:

Have jacket and hat on (38 degree day) and are on their phone being told to go back to the aircraft for a 3 day East Coast trip which they enthusiastically agree too.

NAA:

Still in Paraburdoo with a broken Fokker awaiting the 4pm flight to get them home which will also break down. Have turned their shirt inside out as they had no clean clothes from their unscheduled overnight in Telfer the night before.

NJS:

Landed 45 mins ahead of schedule as contractors don’t pay attention to fuel burn. Halfway through an emu on their boat on the way to rotto with the family. Refused to operate an extra leg to rescue Fokker in Paraburdoo.

Do what’s best for you and your family.

*I believe the NJS guys may no longer be enjoying beers on rotto since the hostile takeover.

[onezeroonethree]

Imagine the delusion when you justify being an underpaid jet skipper because "I work two days a week and get paid a mainline FO wage"

No. You're more than likely working 4-5 days a week, consistently signing on pre sun rise and often dealing with tech issues, a toxic culture and ops begging you to work more becasue they're so understaffed.

IF two days a week was accurate then you'd be working 8 days a month. A Perth 787 SO works 10 days a month, doesn't get stuck in the pilbara in 45 degree heat, earns a little less and has a fraction of the responsibility. Easy choice as to which one has the life style.

[The Banjo]

First year QF 737 F/O

$145,238 for 696 hours.

extras include overtime which is typically +30% and bonuses. Allowances and super additional.

If money is the yardstick of success in life then there are some sick puppies in the industry. A return flight to the Pilbara and home by lunch time in cavok conditions has value for some.
4 day trips, hotels, wife stressing over kids on the end of the phone with no support. Good night to the kids over skype.
The cost of earning the shekels may be higher than you think.

[walesregent]

If money is the yardstick of success in life then there are some sick puppies in the industry. A return flight to the Pilbara and home by lunch time in cavok conditions has value for some.
4 day trips, hotels, wife stressing over kids on the end of the phone with no support. Good night to the kids over skype.
The cost of earning the shekels may be higher than you think.

The concern is that someone, somewhere in the bowels of HQ is planning on turning NAA into an operation that involves living out of a kitbag minus the compensation of mainline, hence the number of applicants from the former to the latter.

[ActiveLooker]

The concern is that someone, somewhere in the bowels of HQ is planning on turning NAA into an operation that involves living out of a kitbag minus the compensation of mainline, hence the number of applicants from the former to the latter. Perhaps pilots should embrace opportunity as others have done in 1989/2001 and broaden their horizons. The big bold world is waiting! Don’t prostitute yourselves working for overpaid executives that only want to reduce conditions. This is applicable for Mainline as much as NAA. Mainline conditions not that good on a world level

[walesregent]

Perhaps pilots should embrace opportunity as others have done in 1989/2001 and broaden their horizons. The big bold world is waiting! Don’t prostitute yourselves working for overpaid executives that only want to reduce conditions. This is applicable for Mainline as much as NAA. Mainline conditions not that good on a world level

Couldn’t agree more. I’m just waiting for someone to be desperate enough to offer a commuting contract that would reasonably work for someone living in Perth.

[onezeroonethree]

If money is the yardstick of success in life then there are some sick puppies in the industry. A return flight to the Pilbara and home by lunch time in cavok conditions has value for some.
4 day trips, hotels, wife stressing over kids on the end of the phone with no support. Good night to the kids over skype.
The cost of earning the shekels may be higher than you think.
You think the 737 guys don't do this?

They do. They're home by noon as well if they want pilbara trips. The difference is they'll make double what a network pilot earns for the day and won't be expected to sleep on the airplane when they break down in Newman or wherever it was two years ago when accommodation was tight and network didn't send a rescue plane. Is it true the ARO felt sorry for them and offered his couch at home?

Just go drive a bus for trans perth

[ActiveLooker]

You think the 737 guys don't do this?

They do. They're home by noon as well if they want pilbara trips. The difference is they'll make double what a network pilot earns for the day and won't be expected to sleep on the airplane when they break down in Newman or wherever it was two years ago when accommodation was tight and network didn't send a rescue plane. Is it true the ARO felt sorry for them and offered his couch at home?

Just go drive a bus for trans perth
youre delusional 1013. I’ve got mates in all Oz airlines and have been looking at retirement options for a while now. B737 guys don’t earn double. You are a stereo typical QF knobbier that we laugh at. Keep pushing that cart and enjoying your SYD, MEL and BNE slips. Oh, that’s right, you stay at some mining site and get “ the big bucks”

[onezeroonethree]

youre delusional 1013. I’ve got mates in all Oz airlines and have been looking at retirement options for a while now. B737 guys don’t earn double. You are a stereo typical QF knobbier that we laugh at. Keep pushing that cart and enjoying your SYD, MEL and BNE slips. Oh, that’s right, you stay at some mining site and get “ the big bucks”
🤣 as someone stated earlier, the flow is one way. I enjoy the ability to bid for a variety of ports whether it's day trips within WA or overnights and same day trips to the east.

[SandyPalms]

youre delusional 1013. I’ve got mates in all Oz airlines and have been looking at retirement options for a while now. B737 guys don’t earn double. You are a stereo typical QF knobbier that we laugh at. Keep pushing that cart and enjoying your SYD, MEL and BNE slips. Oh, that’s right, you stay at some mining site and get “ the big bucks”

Wow. What an interesting dude. So much for showing support blah blah blah mentioned earlier. I guess from a NAA point of view, that's an expectation only one way.

If the quoted numbers about NAA A320 captains salary are on this thread are true, I can assure you, total bucks, it's pretty damn close to double.

The rest of your post I don't understand. Most of the PER 737 flying is Pilbara day returns.

[ActiveLooker]

Wow. What an interesting dude. So much for showing support blah blah blah mentioned earlier. I guess from a NAA point of view, that's an expectation only one way.

If the quoted numbers about NAA A320 captains salary are on this thread are true, I can assure you, total bucks, it's pretty damn close to double.

The rest of your post I don't understand. Most of the PER 737 flying is Pilbara day returns. until the B737 is retired, then I assume you guys will be pushing mini buses around the eastcoast on regional wages. Btw, the EA base salaries are available for all to see. Please explain how it’s double. Perhaps I’m missing something. Anyway, mainline not an option for returning expats.

[dr dre]

youre delusional 1013. I’ve got mates in all Oz airlines and have been looking at retirement options for a while now. B737 guys don’t earn double.

We were comparing SH FO to NAA Capt before, but comparing rank v rank:

Last (https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-search/view/aHR0cHM6Ly9zYXNyY2RhdGFwcmRhdWVhYS5ibG9iLmNvcmUud2luZG93cy5u ZXQvZW50ZXJwcmlzZWFncmVlbWVudHMvMjAxNy8zL2FlNDIzNjcwLnBkZg2/3/d6feb85a-e96e-4980-9a87-f8a56ffeb68e/network%24%24aviation%24%24pilot) NAA FO 1st year rate - $107,750. This is with additional hours being paid at $74 per hour above 65. At 75 hours average per BP that's $117,370.

Last (https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-search/view/aHR0cHM6Ly9zYXNyY2RhdGFwcmRhdWVhYS5ibG9iLmNvcmUud2luZG93cy5u ZXQvZW50ZXJwcmlzZWFncmVlbWVudHMvMjAyMC8yL2FlNTA3MTI2LnBkZg2/3/982ef9cf-ce7c-423f-809c-c9f0d1be7ff1/qantas%24%24short%24%24haul) SH FO 1st year rate - $145,240. This is at 53hrs per BP but rosters usually come out at 65-71 hours. This is $178,120 at 65 hrs. Additional hours above 53 are paid at more than double the NAA rate. At 75 hours average per BP that's $205,528.

SH FO is 35% higher than NAA FO at 53hrs, 65% higher at 65hrs, 75% higher at 75 hrs, and 85% higher at 85hrs. So SH FO's are not paid precisely "double" NAA, but are paid a substantial amount above NAA FOs that climbs with hours flown. NAA has a D/O payment while SH doesn't, but SH has a bonus payment tied to management payment which can provide close to 10% on top of those wages per year.

until the B737 is retired, then I assume you guys will be pushing mini buses around the eastcoast on regional wages. Btw, the EA base salaries are available for all to see. Please explain how it’s double. Perhaps I’m missing something.

Eh? 737 pilots will have first priority to transfer over to the 321XLR on the same rates. The pilots who remain on the 737 (the youngest half of the fleet will fly to 2034) will be paid under the current SH rates, not "regional wages".

Anyway, mainline not an option for returning expats.

Actually plenty of returning expats have joined mainline over the last 6 years and plenty have applied/are in the process of being recruited currently.

[Jack D. Ripper]

Actually plenty of returning expats have joined mainline over the last 6 years and plenty have applied/are in the process of being recruited currently.

Horses for courses I guess, personally the idea of dropping 2 bars so i can be a glorified map folder sounds like misery. It’s also an insult to experience, but we wont go there..

Hence why many ex-pats end up in NAA and elsewhere.

[Hawk Circle]

NAA FO 1st year rate - $107,750. This is with additional hours being paid at $74 per hour above 65. At 75 hours average per BP that's $117,370.
To be technically correct, you are not comparing A320 FO to QF 737 FO, but rather F100 FO to QF 737 FO.

Honestly, a bit of a nothing burger discussion anyway...

Sure, everyone would like to play for the Wallabies but if they don't get selected they have less of a choice - play for the Western Force or go somewhere else. Serves zero purpose when the Wallaby players berate them for their lower salaries at the Western Force...maybe a bit of 'Look at Me' mentality at play :D

When experienced pilots (wide and narrowbody) are continuously overlooked in favour of REX pilots, then what else do you suggest they do - drive for Trans Perth rather than practise their (once) respected profession...asking for a friend.

[KABOY]

With Winton delivered and pay freezes below CPI now the norm, how long do you realistically think QF has the edge.

The 321 is a bigger plane and you have delivered it for zero cost increase. You won’t be able to ‘compare’ rates in the very near future. Years ago you would have never compared the 737 to the 767, now you have effectively made it the same from a salary viewpoint.

Pay gaps are closing and chest beating about how much better paid you are is the arrogance executives seek.

Boiling a frog comes to mind..

[theheadmaster]

With Winton delivered and pay freezes below CPI now the norm, how long do you realistically think QF has the edge.

The 321 is a bigger plane and you have delivered it for zero cost increase. You won’t be able to ‘compare’ rates in the very near future. Years ago you would have never compared the 737 to the 767, now you have effectively made it the same from a salary viewpoint.

Pay gaps are closing and chest beating about how much better paid you are is the arrogance executives seek.

Boiling a frog comes to mind..

I am not sure what you mean when you say 'you would have never compared the 737 to the 767'. I think you are trying to say that QF short haul pilots will be flying a 767 size/role aircraft for 737 rates, and by accepting these conditions have effectively taken a pay cut compared to the old 767 conditions.

The 767 pay rates are no longer in the Long Haul Agreement, but all Long Haul aircraft have retained the same relative pay differences, so it is easy to work out what the applicable 767 hourly rate would be.

737 hourly rate Captain - $342.22
767 hourly rate Captain - $298.63

The two agreements are different in how hours are calculated (different min guarantee, minimum daily credit and night credits long haul), but I think you will get paid at least as much, if not more flying the A321 on the Short Haul Agreement than you would doing same sectors on the 767 on the Long Haul Agreement.

[ActiveLooker]

We were comparing SH FO to NAA Capt before, but comparing rank v rank:

Last (https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-search/view/aHR0cHM6Ly9zYXNyY2RhdGFwcmRhdWVhYS5ibG9iLmNvcmUud2luZG93cy5u ZXQvZW50ZXJwcmlzZWFncmVlbWVudHMvMjAxNy8zL2FlNDIzNjcwLnBkZg2/3/d6feb85a-e96e-4980-9a87-f8a56ffeb68e/network%24%24aviation%24%24pilot) NAA FO 1st year rate - $107,750. This is with additional hours being paid at $74 per hour above 65. At 75 hours average per BP that's $117,370.

Last (https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-search/view/aHR0cHM6Ly9zYXNyY2RhdGFwcmRhdWVhYS5ibG9iLmNvcmUud2luZG93cy5u ZXQvZW50ZXJwcmlzZWFncmVlbWVudHMvMjAyMC8yL2FlNTA3MTI2LnBkZg2/3/982ef9cf-ce7c-423f-809c-c9f0d1be7ff1/qantas%24%24short%24%24haul) SH FO 1st year rate - $145,240. This is at 53hrs per BP but rosters usually come out at 65-71 hours. This is $178,120 at 65 hrs. Additional hours above 53 are paid at more than double the NAA rate. At 75 hours average per BP that's $205,528.

SH FO is 35% higher than NAA FO at 53hrs, 65% higher at 65hrs, 75% higher at 75 hrs, and 85% higher at 85hrs. So SH FO's are not paid precisely "double" NAA, but are paid a substantial amount above NAA FOs that climbs with hours flown. NAA has a D/O payment while SH doesn't, but SH has a bonus payment tied to management payment which can provide close to 10% on top of those wages per year.



Eh? 737 pilots will have first priority to transfer over to the 321XLR on the same rates. The pilots who remain on the 737 (the youngest half of the fleet will fly to 2034) will be paid under the current SH rates, not "regional wages".



Actually plenty of returning expats have joined mainline over the last 6 years and plenty have applied/are in the process of being recruited currently.
They are doing that for retirement. When I retire I would have had a command for 40yrs and earnt much more than QF B737 F/Os. Everyone has their reasons but QF knob ears are the worst when it comes to talking up their conditions and salary. You aren’t that special lads! Sheltered workshop with limited International experience.

[AviatoR21]

Why would anyone want to work for such a toxic bunch? That’s Aussie aviation I guess, the best of the best ha ha.

So back on topic with the revolving door and management please? Or should we keep opening our wallets and comparing how much we have…..

[The Banjo]

One would need to be paid hideous amounts of money to be seen in that uniform. Walking around a terminal dressed like popeye the sailor demands compensation of the highest order.

[ActiveLooker]

Why would anyone want to work for such a toxic bunch? That’s Aussie aviation I guess, the best of the best ha ha.

So back on topic with the revolving door and management please? Or should we keep opening our wallets and comparing how much we have…..

Good call, MIA or RIP?

[ActiveLooker]

Finally!