Upgrade to B737CPT or switch to FO widebody

[mischo1990]

Hi guys. Recently I am dealing with a dilemma. I have Been accepted for a FO possition on a widebody in a different company (would have to move out of the country to the middle east). Ive been flying as a FO for almost 7 years literally giving Up hope for an upgrade so started looking for a different company. So there are rumours there could be a chance for an upgrade on the 737 this winter. My question is. Is it better to take the command on the 737 with my current employer or take a FO possition on a widebody. I have Also annopportunity to go for the sim session for RyanAir as they told me next year I could apply for command (Also 737).

[enzino]

First of all, ask yourself if you could really live in a place without trees. If you can, how long do you have to wait for your command upgrade at the ME operator? EK have their upgrade requirements public on their careers site. As for your current company, keep in mind that those are only rumours, while at Ryanair an upgrade is almost certain.

And most importantly, you don't get a chance to fly a widebody every day.

[awair]

Yes it's the right decision - either way.

At some point in your life priorities will change, marriage/kids/school etc. You will wonder if you made the right call.

Later still, and with hindsight, it will be too late to change. Without the crystal ball, it’s very difficult to advise on what’s best for you.

Good luck!

[rudestuff]

If both are guaranteed, always go for the command. You never know when the opportunity will arise again.

[iggy]

Assuming your age is 33, as shown in your profile, and that you already have some siginificant time in type, it is bettee to go for the upgrade straight away. Even if the upgrade at Middle East was possible it would take some years to come, leaving you closer to being 40 than to 30 years old. Should anything happen that would prevent you from passing your command assesment (I don't know, perhaps a grade 3 in a recurrent in a certain airline in the gulf) would make you look like the typical old, high experienced, but unsuited for command FO that nobody wants to employ.

Go for the upgrade, either in your current outfit or at FR, your career will thank you when you push 40.

[AIMINGHIGH123]

If both are guaranteed, always go for the command. You never know when the opportunity will arise again.

Disagree.

I know many TP (20t+) commanders who thought that. Now unemployed without a sniff of a job. I have a friend who has less than 2.5k total hours. 737/787/777 rated. He’s had job offers coming out of his ears from private jet to Boeing 737/767/747/787. Yes COVID was unique but having heavy time allowed him to apply to cargo operators.

[Dunhovrin]

A command is a command.

[rudestuff]

Disagree.

I know many TP (20t+) commanders who thought that.
I would agree with you if he were flying a Turboprop.

But the 737 is a Jet.

[AIMINGHIGH123]

I would agree with you if he were flying a Turboprop.

But the 737 is a Jet.

I admit I don’t know any 737/a320 commanders out of work but FO 737 people from Norwegian etc the guys I know didn’t have as many job offers. Only 737 jobs.

I was always of the same mentality that command is command but the last 2 years I would say it’s a lot harder to decide.

Heavy time is Heavy time.

[dirk85]

737 PIC time over heavy SIC time ANYTIME!
But your command seems to be only a rumour so far, so…

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

I’d suggest going for command as well. Going for WB F/O position will reduce your options and could get you stuck for years.

[Kennytheking]

Yes it's the right decision - either way.

At some point in your life priorities will change, marriage/kids/school etc. You will wonder if you made the right call.

Later still, and with hindsight, it will be too late to change. Without the crystal ball, it’s very difficult to advise on what’s best for you.

Good luck!

This is true. It doesn’t matter what you do. It depends on your own personal ambitions. If you want to be a widebody captain one day then there is only 1 way - you take the WB FO position. If you want to be a narrowbody captain for the rest of your life then take the command.

[FalseGS]

Been there done that.

Was in the same situation as you. Only for me the command course was scheduled and had a WB FO position offer in hand.

As someone mentioned, command is command.

Airlines in the ME will be forever hiring DECs and DEFOs.

And please don't chase metal; chase lifestyle. It's what you want as a routine. NB and WB are contrasting lifestyles. So is command vis a vis right seat.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

[jadrolinija]

Take the command, collect 1000h as PIC and then go to the WB if you want it. At least you have the backup to come back to Europe if you want directly as a captain on 737 instead of coming back looking for the command and waiting at least a year for the upgrade again on 737...

[Denti]

Personally i would say go for the command. However, with the prospects only being rumors i would be cautious. The rumor mill is always extremely unreliable and therefore not a good career advisor.

The second question is of course if you want do stay on a NB type or try the WB/longhaul lifestyle with all the associated insecurities that entails.


​​​As jadrolinija suggested, it might not be a bad idea to get a command ASAP, get the first 1000/1500 hours under your belt ans then check for other options.

[enzino]

TL;DR: try Ryanair.

[FlightDetent]

737 size command is worth it, it's a career teleport.

Imagine you could replicate and do both - 7 years from now the command 737 you will be getting a DEC on the ME3 WB cutting the line in front of the WB F/O you.

Not to mention 7 years from now the 737 command you will be looking at m-o/m-o offers in Asia worth 20k USD net (today's value) feeling sorry for the jet lag dogs. Check some threads from before COVID home many full civil home days each month did EK T7 captains have. (pickup kids at 16:30, evening and dinner + local night + family breakfast and drive kids to school by 08:00).

[lfbb]

Command... always command when it comes to 320 or 737.

[hans brinker]

Upgrade is the hard part. Once you are a Captain, you are. There is so many places that would take an outside captain over an internal upgrade.

[flash8]

Similar question to that often posed here twenty odd years ago to TP FO's...

737 FO or TP Captain?

If I recall most were saying take the 737 back then.

[RMP2]

I’ve flown as PIC on our A330 and I’ve realized that widebody wasn’t for me; too much fuel in the tanks; it’s very boring. I am now back flying the A321neo and I love it. I would definitely go for the B737Cpt job.

[back to Boeing]

It’s horses for courses. Only you know what works for you and your lifestyle. I could honestly never go back to shorthaul. I’m home more, I can’t remember the last time I set an alarm to wake me up at god awful o’clock five days in a row and not sleeping before hand either. I’ve got bigger blocks of days off in a row that I can do with as I please and I’d rather dig my eyes out with a rusty spoon than go work for the ME3 or in Asia. I earn decent money and I live to my lifestyle. But that’s me. People can only speak
for themselves.

[AIMINGHIGH123]

737 size command is worth it, it's a career teleport.

Imagine you could replicate and do both - 7 years from now the command 737 you will be getting a DEC on the ME3 WB cutting the line in front of the WB F/O you.

Not to mention 7 years from now the 737 command you will be looking at m-o/m-o offers in Asia worth 20k USD net (today's value) feeling sorry for the jet lag dogs. Check some threads from before COVID home many full civil home days each month did EK T7 captains have. (pickup kids at 16:30, evening and dinner + local night + family breakfast and drive kids to school by 08:00).

Now that’s where you are at a sticking point.

At the moment ME3 don’t take DEC on to Boeing fleet. QR is advertising DEC Boeing fleet however very unlikely to get it with 737NG only time. I know a TRE/TRI been at a LCC for 20 years going to said company but moving to RHS. EK when they wanted DEC you needed heavy time. They tried taking 737 DEC people but it didn’t work. Soooooo.

IMO as command is not guaranteed I would take the WB option. That’s just me. I want to try LH.

As you seen from answers here some love LH some love SH. I have never done LH. Want to try it at some point to see if so like it. Better than getting to 60 and thinking what if.
I know people who have gone both ways. LH lovers will always say “can never do SH again” Namely those coming from LCC doing 5 early getting up at 3.30am and not getting home until 16.00 sometimes later is brutal. Then the SH lovers “can never do LH again”
Bored in the cruise for hours.

You know the type of person you are.

It’s a tough decision very few airlines allow you try both. BA is the only one that comes to mind where you could go either way and not have to move mountains.

[Uplinker]

I loved long-haul, loved the majestic A330, and loved the days away down-route. But I think it is mostly 24hr bullets now?, so no fun anymore.

I personally would not move to the ME - you hear too many stories of airlines falsifying log books, a brutal operational culture, limited lifestyle in very hot countries, and extreme long-haul operations.

When the sh*t hits the fan, a Captain can be employed elsewhere as a Captain or an F/O. An F/O can only be employed as an F/O.

If the command course is on a useful jet and is a reasonable certainty - i.e. you have already been told you qualify to be on the next B737/A320 course - then I would go for the command. Glamorous long-haul probably doesn't exist any more?

[rudestuff]

Similar question to that often posed here twenty odd years ago to TP FO's...

737 FO or TP Captain?

If I recall most were saying take the 737 back then.
1st priority should be to get onto a 50t Jet.
2nd priority should be to get a command.
3rd priority should be long haul/wide body.

Choosing TP captain over 737 FO is potentially painting yourself into a corner.

[BBK]

I’d suggest haul haul in the Middle East is a lifestyle option so it depends where you want to be in say 10-20 years? Long haul isn’t for everybody and I suspect that if you’re working a for a ME operator you’ll work hard. Have you any contacts out there already who can advise you. Personally I think lifestyle and the company you work for are more important than a command but each to their own. One piece of advice I was given by a trainer who had worked out there went like this. “The life style may seem great but after a while you’ll want to come home. Now you’re middle aged and you’ll be lucky to get a direct entry command so you will be back as a junior FO on a huge pay cut”.

That was enough to put me off ever applying!

[downsouth]

Very personal decision... I've never flown LH, even when I a had a good chance to do so... I stayed on SH because I thought that it would get me sooner to command... in the end... it took 4 years longer than I expected, and could have done both... The situation was different because it was all within the same company... I don't regret it though... flying SH for so long before the upgrade, meant that I was more experienced on type by the time I did my upgrade, and gave a lot of confidence... If I were you, I would wait for command, the sooner it comes the better... and who knows, in the future you may get a chance at a DEC position on a WB... If I am not mistaken, there was a time when Korean offered A330 DEC for A320 experienced captains and 777 for Boeing experienced CP as well... also Norwegian gave similar opportunities for experienced SH captains... Hopefully with time (and full recovery of the industry) there will be similar opportunities... but if you go for the LH FO position right now, who knows how many years you'll have to wait for the left seat... Anyways, good luck with whatever decision you make!

[Shooting_Star]

I made the exact same choice. Moved to the Me fly widebody instead of my command at my loco. I can only say I regret it, my current job while paying much more is horribly tiring, I fly easily 1200 block hours a year. I am at almost 7 years still no chance at command while hundreds of DEC joined every year some flying 737. Id say get your command then move as a captain to the Middle East, dont be stupid, your chances at command are very low here atleast in The best airline in the world. After a few years you want to leave and eventually youll go back home which in my case is Europe and my widebody rating is useless.

[mischo1990]

This is true. It doesn’t matter what you do. It depends on your own personal ambitions. If you want to be a widebody captain one day then there is only 1 way - you take the WB FO position. If you want to be a narrowbody captain for the rest of your life then take the command.

Not true. Coulple of my colleagues captains went from B737 to 787\777 direct entry...

[Kennytheking]

Not true. Coulple of my colleagues captains went from B737 to 787\777 direct entry...
Of course it happens - but widebody DEC(from NB) tends to be very much in the minority and generally at a bottom feeder.

[YosserHughes]

Qatar taking DEC from 737 onto 78 and have taken many in the past on the same route.

As have EK... there was a time when they turned up at STN, did interviews there and then and took as many RYR 737 skippers as they could take. There are many many ex Ryr and Easy Direct Entry Captains flying wide bodies in the desert.

As the inevitable shortage deepens, as Asia opens up, as the Americans continue offering great packages to their own pilots its only a matter of time before we see this again.

Take the command. Worse case scenario better off an unemployed Captain and be able to go back to RHS if needed.

[AIMINGHIGH123]

Qatar taking DEC from 737 onto 78 and have taken many in the past on the same route.

As have EK... there was a time when they turned up at STN, did interviews there and then and took as many RYR 737 skippers as they could take. There are many many ex Ryr and Easy Direct Entry Captains flying wide bodies in the desert.

As the inevitable shortage deepens, as Asia opens up, as the Americans continue offering great packages to their own pilots its only a matter of time before we see this again.

Take the command. Worse case scenario better off an unemployed Captain and be able to go back to RHS if needed.

Yes EK did turn up at STN recruiting. I went to it. Not for DEC but to gain more information about EK. I know a fair few at EK or been there. Not many 737 skippers passed the training at EK. They had the chance to try again but had to move to RHS for 12-18 months and had the benefit of the enhanced package.
I was told that from a now ex trainer at EK they reviewed that and will probably never recruit DEC from NB again. It didn’t work.

[FlightDetent]

It's not trainers or their leaders who will decide this once the need arises and parking airplanes becomes a threat.

But sure he told you what you wanted to hear, or every prospect F/O would like him to say.

Please understand that doing RHS ULH for 7 years and raising small kids in the sandbox while being a remote dad is not the top choice for many. There is a reason why Wizzair is not short of applicants while paying 10k USD less.

You have been long underlining the good points of EK here, while 0 row seat is still only an aspiration. Fair play, the good points are numerically underrepresented.

​​​​That does not alter the validity or gravity of the bad points. One of them being that command upgrade for an FO without relevant previous experience (OP's) is long years ahead and course availability is a gamble far from assured.
​​​​​

[Kennytheking]

Please understand that doing RHS ULH for 7 years and raising small kids in the sandbox while being a remote dad is not the top choice for many.

That is a fair point which is why I brought up the question of what the OP wishes to do with his life. If he wishes to fly a WB then get out there and do it. WB DEC as a NB Capt is a possibility but is is by far the exception and there is a big question mark over whether EK will do it in the future - maybe, maybe not.....certainly far more of a gamble than the upgrade course availability you mentioned.. Probably be opportunities with QR but, yeah, refer to my previous post.

[FlightDetent]

Agreed. From my perspective any of the ME 2+0.5+0.5 are the same. I remember this forum buzzing with people changing jerseys both ways as the conditions are made progressively worse at uneven pace.

Add KAL, Hainan group, Bamboo, Scoot...to the mix, there will be an opportunity when the gloom phase change to boom. Although the Persian gulf zone might actually be saturated.

Whereas in one airline you are better secured waiting for but one opportunity.

The relevant reading is Airbus' Market Forecast document for 2022-2040.

​​​​​Though it's another sentence in your fine post that deserves the most attention:

what the OP wishes to do with his life. If he wishes to fly a WBI take it out of context deliberately so the young talents can understand the hard core meaning, when written exactly this way.

It doesn't say 'if you dream to build your career to a WB LHS at a five-star airline'. Very different.




​​​​​​

[SaulGoodman]

It depends on the airline: If it is a career airline: go for WB FO. If it is a WB position at the ME3 or any other bottom feeder (Norse for instance) take the command on 737.

[mischo1990]

I’d suggest haul haul in the Middle East is a lifestyle option so it depends where you want to be in say 10-20 years? Long haul isn’t for everybody and I suspect that if you’re working a for a ME operator you’ll work hard. Have you any contacts out there already who can advise you. Personally I think lifestyle and the company you work for are more important than a command but each to their own. One piece of advice I was given by a trainer who had worked out there went like this. “The life style may seem great but after a while you’ll want to come home. Now you’re middle aged and you’ll be lucky to get a direct entry command so you will be back as a junior FO on a huge pay cut”.

That was enough to put me off ever applying!

Have a couple of ex-colleagues suggesting me what 90% of people here are suggesting. Wait for the upgrade on the 737...

[BBK]

Have a couple of ex-colleagues suggesting me what 90% of people here are suggesting. Wait for the upgrade on the 737...

Whatever you decide the best of luck! I’ll be interested how it goes for you. By the way I went UK short haul to UK long haul so there wasn’t the issue of coming back from the Mid East to contend with. I’ve been very lucky and I would never have foreseen 9/11 or covid but who did? All the best.