Our son wants to be an airline pilot... I have some questions :)

[T Father]

Firstly I would like to start off by thanking anybody who replies to this thread as in this day and age forums are one of the last few places where you can find valuable information from industry experts and people with real-world knowledge rather than YouTube, Twitter and Facebook where adults and children seem to blurt out any old rubbish about any subject and everybody is an expert.....

I'm starting this thread as I have an enthusiastic son of 16 years old who has a dream to be a commercial pilot and fly around the world. We are very supportive of this and what an achievement it will be when he becomes a pilot, but the road is long and lots of effort will be required I know that bit for sure.

So to give you an overview you....we are a British family living in France where our son will undertake his GCSE equivalent in France, he is also currently taking lessons in flying light aircraft and within the next few months will undertake his first solo flight. He also takes additional lessons at college in physics and aviation so he can fast track his career as a commercial pilot.

The questions I have asked him he hasn't been able to answer yet and of course he's only 16 so he probably doesn't know. My advice to him was to sign up to a forum full of experienced pilots that can give you some real world feedback about how the industry works.

He is toying with the idea of moving back to the UK at 18 years old as he is under the assumption that he will be given free training by a company and after 2-years will be given a pilot's licence and will start flying planes. I have my concerns around this as there must be a catch somewhere for example if you have to be 25 years old with 2 years driving experience to hire a van surely there aren't 20 year old flying 300 million planes around, but I am not a pilot and this is why I started this thread to ask these questions. Both his mother and I fully support what he is doing and we are currently paying for him to have private flying lessons so we also take it very seriously but if it sounds too good to be true it normally is and we are being told by him that after 2-years he will earn 60 to £70,000 and that's it- it's all done nothing more?!

Another option is to stay in France and complete his training here. I don't know if there is a school here that offers the same package as the UK but I would be interested to know from people's experience on here, is there a difference in the UK and France and would and in your experience what would be more beneficial to be based in France or the UK as a pilot? Do they pay higher wages in France or the UK?

He has also mentioned that you can pay around £70,000 for a 3 year course and at the end of that course again you'll be a fully fledged commercial airline pilot where you'll be able to walk into a job of around 60 to £70,000. This sounds amazing but one we definitely do not have £70,000 and our advice would be to not borrow the money at such a young age but of course at 18 onwards in the eyes of the law he is an adult and like us all he will learn by his mistakes.

Of course I would love our son to stay with as and the rest of his family here in France but this is not about me this is about him and I'm not a pilot as I'm certainly not clever enough to pass any of the exams let alone fly a plane! I'm just a dad with a passionate about flying son and within the next 2 years he will make some decisions which will change the rest of his life and with all of our children I want to give him the best advice possible.

I won't be able to receive personal messages as I'm a new member here but any advice or feedback would be greatly appreciated. As a side note I have the upmost respect for airline pilots, our son has shown us some of the training he will have to go through and some of the things he will have to learn and it seems unfathomable !! I wouldn't even get close ! Our son is learning this in a foreign language as well which blows my mind even more !

Once again thank you for your time and I apologise for any spelling mistakes or inaccuracies above.

Tim

[wiggy]

I’m out of the industry now so can’t contribute much but as a starter given your location I take it you know about this place just up the road from Chez nous….

ENAC (https://www.enac.fr/en/pilot-training)

and I guess you have a fair bit of insight into citizenship/right to work complications…:rolleyes: .others will know all about that and implications for licenses…..

[Uplinker]

Hi Tim,

Just quickly, my responses to a few of your questions. I trained for my ATPL(A) in 1998, so I might be a little out of date. I don't mean to sound callous or cynical but I will be brief.

There is no free ATPL training to my knowledge.

£70,000 for an ATPL seems optimistic. Type rating will cost up to £30,000 on top. I have heard of £125,000 in total.

Wannabe pilots basically have to decide between paying for their flying training or getting on the housing ladder. It is taking a big risk to assume that all will be successful and pilot salary will repay all debts.

Won't walk into a job, (no experience).

Probably will have to pay to be offered a job. I have 22 years experience and am Airbus type rated, but just two years ago, a certain low cost airline said I would have to pay them £8,000 for a job at a foreign base.

Salary expectations seem over-optimistic. About half that would be more realistic for the first few years.

Lots of hurdles and hoops to jump through - even if you have an ATPL and a type rating. Even if you have many years' experience.

Piloting is not as much fun as it was. Fatigue, difficult schedules, getting up at 0300 five days in a row, or not getting into bed until 0300 five days in a row.

Becoming a pilot needs four things:


Class 1 medical.
The money for your training.
The ability to fly, and to learn and pass all the exams - written and practical.
Luck - by which I mean being in the right place at the right time with the right airline (for you).


Get the Class 1 medical as soon as you can, before you start anything. No medical, no job, so you need to know if there are any underlying health issues before starting.

Again, I apologise for not presenting my answers very gently, but I wish your son well, I honestly do. It will be an enormous outlay though.

Good luck.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Hi TF, I've been around this community for some decades, although never personally worked as an airline pilot, but hopefully my views can be useful.

Firstly I would like to start off by thanking anybody who replies to this thread as in this day and age forums are one of the last few places where you can find valuable information from industry experts and people with real-world knowledge rather than YouTube, Twitter and Facebook where adults and children seem to blurt out any old rubbish about any subject and everybody is an expert.....

I'm starting this thread as I have an enthusiastic son of 16 years old who has a dream to be a commercial pilot and fly around the world. We are very supportive of this and what an achievement it will be when he becomes a pilot, but the road is long and lots of effort will be required I know that bit for sure.

So to give you an overview you....we are a British family living in France where our son will undertake his GCSE equivalent in France, he is also currently taking lessons in flying light aircraft and within the next few months will undertake his first solo flight. He also takes additional lessons at college in physics and aviation so he can fast track his career as a commercial pilot.

I assume that's the Bac, which is a good qualification, accepted in the UK as well as France. Maths and physics are the two things he wants to put emphasis on - "aviation" as a school subject, where it exists can be a good motivator but unlikely to actually make a difference to his genuine prospects.

The questions I have asked him he hasn't been able to answer yet and of course he's only 16 so he probably doesn't know. My advice to him was to sign up to a forum full of experienced pilots that can give you some real world feedback about how the industry works.

He is toying with the idea of moving back to the UK at 18 years old as he is under the assumption that he will be given free training by a company and after 2-years will be given a pilot's licence and will start flying planes. I have my concerns around this as there must be a catch somewhere for example if you have to be 25 years old with 2 years driving experience to hire a van surely there aren't 20 year old flying 300 million planes around, but I am not a pilot and this is why I started this thread to ask these questions. Both his mother and I fully support what he is doing and we are currently paying for him to have private flying lessons so we also take it very seriously but if it sounds too good to be true it normally is and we are being told by him that after 2-years he will earn 60 to £70,000 and that's it- it's all done nothing more?!

Those schemes exist, but places are incredibly competitive. I don't need to know anything about your son to state authoritatively that his chances are tiny.

Those 20 year olds exist, both in civil and military aviation - it's all down to the training and examination, not the age, by and large.

Equivalent paid-for programmes are called "Integrated courses", and the current going rate is around £90k, 18 months, plus living costs. Are the chances of being employed after that good?, reasonable, but far from certain. If he does get a job from one, he may still need to pay several tens of thousands after that for a type rating course, and it's doubtfull he'll start on much above £30k, so the pay-back time is substantial. £60k after 2 years?, not a hope.

It is possible to get exactly the same qualifications through self management, this is known as the "Modular route", may take a little longer, may be slightly less good for employability, the costs are nearer £45k, done well.

Another option is to stay in France and complete his training here. I don't know if there is a school here that offers the same package as the UK but I would be interested to know from people's experience on here, is there a difference in the UK and France and would and in your experience what would be more beneficial to be based in France or the UK as a pilot? Do they pay higher wages in France or the UK?

The EU job market is bigger than the UK job market. The licence courses and syllabi are basically identical but for daft reasons related to the way Brexit was handled, a UK issued licence isn't valid in the EU, and vice-versa. The sensible workaround to this, if your son has the right to live and work both sides of the Channel is to find (a) school(s) that teach and examine for both in parallel. The actual teaching and training only needs doing once, the flight tests once, but he would need to take the 14 ground examinations twice.

He has also mentioned that you can pay around £70,000 for a 3 year course and at the end of that course again you'll be a fully fledged commercial airline pilot where you'll be able to walk into a job of around 60 to £70,000. This sounds amazing but one we definitely do not have £70,000 and our advice would be to not borrow the money at such a young age but of course at 18 onwards in the eyes of the law he is an adult and like us all he will learn by his mistakes.

As above, probably nearer 18 months than 3 years, probably nearer £90k than £70k, and probably nearer £30k than £60k. He's basically been listening to the sales spiel from certain organisations who may well provide high quality training, but are often more than a little bullish about the likely outcomes.

Of course I would love our son to stay with as and the rest of his family here in France but this is not about me this is about him and I'm not a pilot as I'm certainly not clever enough to pass any of the exams let alone fly a plane! I'm just a dad with a passionate about flying son and within the next 2 years he will make some decisions which will change the rest of his life and with all of our children I want to give him the best advice possible.

My advice would be to start more basic. Consider helping him to do the PPL, that is the baseline private pilot's licence. He can do it in the UK or France at this stage, it'll take 9 written exams, 45+hours of flying training, and around £12k. It will answer a LOT of questions about his motivation and aptitude, in ways that 2 days at an Integrated Course assessment centre won't. It will all count towards his professional licences if he carries on that way, it may show it wasn't a good idea, it may give him a lifelong hobby but he actually decides that other career routes are for him.

I won't be able to receive personal messages as I'm a new member here but any advice or feedback would be greatly appreciated. As a side note I have the upmost respect for airline pilots, our son has shown us some of the training he will have to go through and some of the things he will have to learn and it seems unfathomable !! I wouldn't even get close ! Our son is learning this in a foreign language as well which blows my mind even more !

By all means email me - boffin at engineer dot com will reach me if you want a more detailed private chat.

A further thought, military flying service is incredibly competitive to get into, but would give all the training, the satisfaction, the sense of service that any self respecting youngster could ever ask for. One day he can always go civil after that (but NEVER even in passing suggest that it's the route into civil flying, not nowadays, he'll be out the door before he's finished the sentence).

G

Once again thank you for your time and I apologise for any spelling mistakes or inaccuracies above.

Tim

[T Father]

Thank you very much for the feedback & advice, seems that the cost of learning is such a huge part of flying. Have you met many pilots at 21 or 22 years old flying?
He says EasyJet has courses in the UK & RyanAir also offer a training program :?

Seems crazy to think a 18 / 19 year old can sign up to 100K of debt !!!

Thanks again for the reply

[paco]

I would endorse what Genghis said - if you want to join the miltary do it because you want to do that, not to get hours. They have ways of making you fly desks instead.

Joining a flying club or some sort of forum would be a good first step with an eye to modular training - and I would mention that airlines are not the only game in town - you can do firefighting and all sorts of stuff that is way more interesting :), especially as EASA have sucked the joy right out of it (I speak as one who has got his boots muddy with aeroplanes and helicopters). The PPL would sort out whether he likes flying or vice versa! The cost of training at some schools would in excess of £100K these days. I know it can be done in S Africa for about half that as a modular option.

Another tip would be to get a language - probably Spanish but it sounds like French is an option already. Only 21% of the world speaks English.

Get a class 1 medical to start with though - all the training in the world is no good if you fail it!

Good luck

Phil

[T Father]

Thank you Paco, I don't think the military route is something he will would into having spoken with him but at least he knows about this as an option. He speaks both perfect French & English / written as well so maybe this goes in his favour :?

If he can fly a small plane on his own is there a market for private charter flights in France / EU ? I have no idea where to start with this for him but it seems crazy to spend £125K to learn to fly to be paid £35 / 40K when you can buy a small light aircraft for less money & then rent it out / private charter or even deliveries ..... (if i'am completely wrong / unrealistic please DO say,)

[hobbit1983]

If he can fly a small plane on his own is there a market for private charter flights in France / EU ? I have no idea where to start with this for him but it seems crazy to spend £125K to learn to fly to be paid £35 / 40K when you can buy a small light aircraft for less money & then rent it out / private charter or even deliveries ..... (if i'am completely wrong / unrealistic please DO say,)

Yes, there is, but after having spent the last ten years in that sector, the jobs can be hard to come by (and more so now with Brexit, in the UK). Most go on word of mouth - i have never had an interview for a job that was formally advertised.

Salaries may be a little out of date, but for first officer on a small aircraft, you can expect somewhere in the region of £25k...or less, in some instances! Odds are he won't be able to fly it on his own just after qualifying.

Yes. It is crazy!

[hobbit1983]

He says EasyJet has courses in the UK & RyanAir also offer a training program :?



I think easyJet do not do any courses for complete beginners (they did in the last few years, but only for women, and only for six people).

Ryanair and Easy do have training courses - but for newly qualified/experienced pilots converting onto their jets.

This is a 45k or so training course on top of the £100k for the pilot training...

...if you're lucky the airline pays for it, then bonds you financially for a few years.

[hobbit1983]

Hi Tim, I've just pulled a few points I think I can answer.



He also takes additional lessons at college in physics and aviation so he can fast track his career as a commercial pilot.


I don't know about the French system, but there are no dispensations in the pilot exams. This knowledge will help, but only to a point; generally, the theoretical knowledge is wide but not particularly deep.


He is toying with the idea of moving back to the UK at 18 years old as he is under the assumption that he will be given free training by a company and after 2-years will be given a pilot's licence and will start flying planes. I have my concerns around this as there must be a catch
There are no companies that offer free training from the start any more, because they have realised they can get the pilots to fund it.

​​​​​​​
He has also mentioned that you can pay around £70,000 for a 3 year course and at the end of that course again you'll be a fully fledged commercial airline pilot where you'll be able to walk into a job of around 60 to £70,000. Tim

More like 100k, and £45k, if you're lucky, but very easy to take years to get into an airline job. Lots of newly qualified pilots have ended up working in offices/stacking shelves whilst waiting for that elusive first job.

​​​​​​​At the moment there is a definite need for EXPERIENCED pilots - but not newly qualified ones. Who knows where the industry will be in two years.

[pilotmike]

Thank you very much for the feedback & advice, seems that the cost of learning is such a huge part of flying. Have you met many pilots at 21 or 22 years old flying?
Yes, but both had followed the modular route that Genghis spoke of, so they were able to get into the flight deck much more affordably than the integrated route. For the avoidance of doubt, the ones I met were highly competent, highly motivated, and clearly gave absolutely everything to realising their dream. And they had parental support, not just motivational, but very likely financial as well, allowing them to crack on with their training at a rapid rate without financial worries.
Seems crazy to think a 18 / 19 year old can sign up to 100K of debt !!!
Thanks again for the reply
Ah! Maybe there's been a misunderstanding... The 18 year olds didn't sign up to any debt! - at least not with any formal lender such as a bank. It was their parents that signed up to it , sometimes with their home as collateral, and they were the ones who were saddled with the debt. Any private arrangements between parent and 18 year old student remained just that - private!

Good luck to both you and your son, I hope he succeeds. Neither you nor he can expect it to be easy, either financially, studying-wise, or emotionally. But rewarding once completed and successfully in the right hand seat of an airliner, hopefully.

[20driver]

There is some very good advice in these posts.
I'm not in the Europe and not a commercial pilot. In the US the market has changed dramatically. I cannot believe the offers high school kids are getting for Cadet programs. A friends 25 yr old brother just started at Delta main line. He went to Auburn. But it comes and goes.
Getting a first class medical and then a PPL would be a good start. I've known a few very healthy people who could not get the medical for assorted reasons.
Really dig and find out what airlines offer training. Ryanair it is not popular on here but my understanding is they offer a cadet program. From what I have heard you can do very well with it. What ever you get , read the fine print and ask a lot of questions.
That your son speaks French and English will make him attractive to some companies. One observation I have is people who only speak English tend to have a view of the world that is not really in sync with what the rest of the world.
The best piece of advice is to have a Plan B.
Personally, mine are grown but I would have pressed them very hard to get a degree or another qualification first if flying was the way they wanted to go. My daughter left the Air Force academy after two years, finished in Engineering , worked a bit in consulting then ended up with a PhD in aeronautical eng. and works at NASA. You never know what will happen.
I would be very wary of what flight schools tell you. As for financing flight training , I would go the modular route , take it bit by bit and be realistic.
France has a lot of flying clubs that offer a low cost intro to flying. Has your son checked any out?

[RichardH]

Hi T Father

There are some really honest (though might not be what your son wants to hear) good & fair advice given on the various replies given here.

I repeat go and get a Class 1 medical ASAP & keep the flying lessons going.

Up to 3 years ago I was a ground school instructor (TKI) at several of the big UK schools over the last 22 years. My last school did have some under 22s there even on the EasyJet MPL scheme (usually maths or science graduates) at the time but they are extremely difficult to get on & despite what they might tell you still offer no GUARANTEED job. I was instructing at Oxford when 9/11 happened and within 48 hours Aer Lingus had cancelled their fully sponsored course shortly followed by British Airways cancelling one of their fully sponsored courses leaving a lot of very unhappy students some of whom had given up existing safe careers, so much for a GUARANTEED flying job. These were probably the last fully sponsored airline courses, I believe all the others require you to put some of your own money in first to reduce the airlines risk exposure.

You will only hear positive spin from the sales people from the school but I have also heard of a few parents houses being repossessed & a handful of students being declared bankrupt after spending £100k+ but can't get a job to cover the debt.

Beware of the 'selection process' for these integrated courses, it's tame compared to the selection for flying in the UK armed services. Yes there are tests & interviews etc but probably the most important question at the end is "Can you write a cheque for £100,000"! Myself & other instructors were alarmed at some of the trainees who had been 'selected' who clearly from day one shouldn't have been there on ability (just there to boost the sales figures). These trainees often ended up being back-coursed or even eventually terminated, the services would have chopped them long ago, but we are in the murky world of commerce.

To end on a positive note most students will get through the training but it requires 110% COMMITMENT & FOCUS along with an almost non existent social life for several months.

All the best

Richard.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Adds meaning to the old adage in aviation, "there's plenty of money in aviation...all of mine is there".

[Capt Scribble]

One problem with the airline industry is that amplifies the cyclical nature of the economy. You may start training when airlines are begging for pilots, to emerge 18 months later when they are laying off people. £100k debt and no job is not a good place to be. Although Commercial pilots licenses are valid for some time, the type ratings and qualifications attached to them are fairy short lived, so if you don't get a job its difficult and expensive to keep your qualification current. Experience is everything in a poor market, and new joiners have no experience. I say this as one who flew over 46 years and was lucky in the military and civil world. Oh, until the company went under just pre covid! But I enjoyed my time in the air, its great fun if you can get someone to pay you to fly, so long as you know the risks.

[n5296s]

I'm just a private pilot for my own amusement, but I know several French airline pilot wannabees. All of them have spent serious money getting a "frozen ATPL" - I don't know how much but I guess the figures in earlier responses are accurate. This is money they have borrowed that will eventually have to repay.

Then it's a question of hanging around waiting for someone to offer them a paid job flying. That implies getting a type rating, which is further expense. One of them (who was my instructor for a while) has now got a job flying bizjets for a company in Geneva. The other three are still waiting.

Bottom line... you have to spend lots of money, which unless you have wealthy parents implies taking on a serious debt burden. Then you have to wait and pass a lengthy poorly-paid apprenticeship flying bizjets or working for Ryanair or Wizz, before you finally get a decently paid job with a decent airline.

All that said, the people I know love it and are absolutely convinced they are doing the right thing. I met one guy who is now flying for Air Caraibe and loving it, but he sent several years at Ryanair which he said you just have to like a doctor's internship. He certainly didn't seem to have enjoyed it much.

[3db]

Hi Tim,
One resource I have not seen mentioned is the Honourable Company of Air Pilots.

https://www.airpilots.org/

They offer flying scholarships (now closed for 2022) most years for a ppl (they also offer gliding scholarships). Competition for a place is intense. They also offer an airline evaluation course, where you are interviewed by experienced airline pilots and they suggest if you are likely to have the right abilities to succeed in the airlines. If not, this can save you considerable time and money. I think the course is either low or no cost to the applicant.

[bringbackthe80s]

I recommend to not do it, and advise him to get into computer science. He will work remotely and live wherever he wants, never be out of a job and get plenty of money. He can fly for fun if he wishes. The world has changed and so should we.

[blind pew]

Some great advice ..First class medical...join french flying club and get a ppl. Make himself available for any work including with a broom in his hand.
Join a french gliding club and do a course..they are subsidised for youngsters..do enough work around the field..get tugging.
Meantime study..anything that he enjoys ..which will indicate commitment and give him a fall back career...
RAF requires UK residency for 5 years, exceptional circumstances 3...
Good luck..took me 5 years after my first knock back..then plan B after I lost my medical at 45..Still flying at 72.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Uplinker has it right, sadly. I left the industry 2 years ago and, as much as I miss my colleagues, I do not miss the lifestyle. The industry has changed (and continues to change) and the lifestyle for pilots has gone south - as has the remuneration. A combination of advances in technology allowing for longer and longer flights and an industry now being run by HR rather than aviators means that pilots are just a finite resource to be squeezed as much as possible, for as long as possible as cheaply as possible. The real 'gotcha' though is that by the time most new pilots realise this nowadays, they are in in their early 30s, still in debt circa 100,000 euros, financially trapped in an industry that isn't what they thought it would be, are too old to start again and too in debt to be able to get married or buy a house.

If your son really wants to fly, my advice would be for him to get a good job in law or finance and to hire a Cessna at the weekends. He will have a much happier (and longer) life.

[JRK]

If your son really wants to fly, my advice would be for him to get a good job in law or finance and to hire a Cessna at the weekends. He will have a much happier (and longer) life.

Good advice in my opinion.

I did something similar and am very happy that I did.

However, to each his own...

Best of luck!

[T Father]

Really taken back by the amount of replies & advice here, you are all clearly very knowable & have that ''thing'' you cant buy ..... Experience!!

He is doing his PPL at the moment & has flown around 20 hours so far, its a local flying club down the road from us @ EGC Bergerac Dordogne Périgord Airport. Fantastic place & very fair with pricing but there is a limit to what we can offer him & to be honest putting our family home up to secure the funding or debt is NOT something we would do.

He would only have to fail a medical by the sounds of it and thats that - no job ! plus we would lose our home. In my option its also not fair to let a young adult sign up to / agree that his family home is being used as collateral.

We tell our kids to aim high, try hard & then try harder lol the world is tough & as its been pointed out its also changing very fast - Once again thank you for the feedback & advice. So helpful & lots i didn't even think of.

T

[Sam Ting Wong]

For what it's worth, I personally deeply regret my career choice.

If your son has any creative spirit in him, any ambition, any curiosity, I would not recommend it. I find the job boring, tiring, overrated by the public and underrated by management. Out of a 12 hr flight I enjoy maybe the last 5 minutes, and only on the rare occasion I am not completely knackered.

Forget all the romantic stereotypes, there is zero adventure in this job left. All fun aspects have gone, life as an airline pilot is a constant struggle of fatigue, base changes, bankrupt employers and cost saving. The pay is going downhill since decades, and this will only accelerate further with more automation.

Pilots are the Uber driver of tomorrow.

[pilotmike]

I find the job boring, tiring, overrated by the public and underrated by management. Out of a 12 hr flight I enjoy maybe the last 5 minutes, and only on the rare occasion I am not completely knackered.

Forget all the romantic stereotypes, there is zero adventure in this job left. All fun aspects have gone, life as an airline pilot is a constant struggle of fatigue, base changes, bankrupt employers and cost saving. The pay is going downhill since decades, and this will only accelerate further with more automation.

Pilots are the Uber driver of tomorrow.
And there are plenty of down sides to the job too!

[Xeptu]

30 years an Airline Pilot retired. Glad to be out.
Rule One. Make sure it's for you first, go flying pull some G, some people just can't fly.
Rule Two, There's no such thing as walking into a Job. (this is flying school hype)
Rule Three. Expect 4 years minimum to get trained at around US$100,000
Rule Four Expect to sit in the right hand seat (First Officer) for about 5 to 10 years, prior to Command (sometimes one gets lucky with less)
Rule Five Salaries range from very little to alot depending what your in command of.
Rule Six Expect to be away from home most of the time, long sectors sitting on your arse, and even longer waiting.
Rule Seven Competition from every other pilot with no experience is fierce, don't expect to be one of the lucky ones.

[CVividasku]

There is no free ATPL training to my knowledge.

Agree with all the rest of your message, but for this part : yes there is ! Actually two : ENAC, very competitive, and Air France cadets.

Only catch : you have to be fluent in French, in both cases. But it may very well be the case of OP's son ?

How long have you all been living in France for ?

About the Air France cadets. They may very well open again in the coming years.
It is competitive but not so much if you're really motivated and at the right time in your life (not too early, you need at least 2 years college or better : "classes prépa")
About the salary, Air France is about the best you can hope. He will make about 45k€/year with no debt whatsoever.

So, in short, finish the PPL, start a "classes prépa" (any math and physics "prepa class" will do, preferably the best he can get in your area though), if he has time, do the ATPL theory (it can very well be after the classes prépas because they are very demanding), and at some point during this curriculum or right after, the AF cadets will hopefully open and he will be able to prepare and hopefully succeed.

Having a double culture, if he speaks perfect French, will only be a total advantage.
Really taken back by the amount of replies & advice here, you are all clearly very knowable & have that ''thing'' you cant buy ..... Experience!!

He is doing his PPL at the moment & has flown around 20 hours so far, its a local flying club down the road from us @ EGC Bergerac Dordogne Périgord Airport. Fantastic place & very fair with pricing but there is a limit to what we can offer him & to be honest putting our family home up to secure the funding or debt is NOT something we would do.

He would only have to fail a medical by the sounds of it and thats that - no job ! plus we would lose our home. In my option its also not fair to let a young adult sign up to / agree that his family home is being used as collateral.

We tell our kids to aim high, try hard & then try harder lol the world is tough & as its been pointed out its also changing very fast - Once again thank you for the feedback & advice. So helpful & lots i didn't even think of.

T
I'll have more advice tonight.. In short, also think about a very good plan B.

[rudestuff]

The next step should be to get a CLASS ONE EASA medical (and a CAA one at the same time)
This is super important because the initial class one is extremely in-depth (read: plenty of opportunity to fail it) No medical = no career. That's not something you want to find out after you've spent a fortune on flight training. Subsequent renewals are relatively straight forward.

Yes there are plenty of 18 year old FOs, and a fair few 21 year old Captains. Thanks to rich parents.

No - you cannot just buy a small plane and fly people around in it for money! That's a commercial operation requiring both a commercial licence AND an Air operators certificate which requires a company management structure and $$$

No one will pay for your flight training but you. *With a very few exceptions!

Here's what I tell anyone who wants to be a pilot:

Most people think the most important thing you need to become a pilot is money. Its not, it's perseverance.
If you have perseverance then money is just time.

First you need to know how much money you need. To do that you need to know how flight training works otherwise you're just listening to numbers. Integrated courses are for the rich and/or the misguided. Modular courses are the cheapest option and a fATPL will cost £40,000. That's it. Anyone quoting £60k or £70k simply hasn't bothered researching things.

Once you've planned your flight training and you have a figure in mind you simply need to do a few things:

1. Get a job, the better paying the better
2. Get a credit card and a small loan
3. Don't drink
4. Don't smoke
5. For God's sake don't have any kids
6. Move in with your parents
7. Get a weekend job
8. Get an evening job, pizza delivery works well.

With no life it should take somewhere between 12-24 months to save half the money. The credit card, loan and income level will allow you to borrow the other half.

Then go a be a pilot. Becoming a pilot is remarkably easy - getting that first job can be very hard as it depends on prevailing economic conditions. The easiest way to get a pilot job (other than direct entry) is to get a non-flying job first then apply from within. PR teams love those "Forklift driver to Airline Pilot" success stories... All you need is perseverance.

[esa-aardvark]

When I lived in New Zealand, a friend of our son came to NZ. Took lessons at
Bridge Pa flying school. As far as I know he funded the lessons from his meagre
earnings. Then built hours flying people around NZ, mostly from Bridge Pa.
Last I heard he was employed by Air NZ regional, and hoping for a Jet job
with Air NZ mainline. Then Covid came along.

[ScepticalOptomist]

For what it's worth, I personally deeply regret my career choice.

If your son has any creative spirit in him, any ambition, any curiosity, I would not recommend it. I find the job boring, tiring, overrated by the public and underrated by management. Out of a 12 hr flight I enjoy maybe the last 5 minutes, and only on the rare occasion I am not completely knackered.

Forget all the romantic stereotypes, there is zero adventure in this job left. All fun aspects have gone, life as an airline pilot is a constant struggle of fatigue, base changes, bankrupt employers and cost saving. The pay is going downhill since decades, and this will only accelerate further with more automation.

Pilots are the Uber driver of tomorrow.

Sorry to hear that.

I agree the job can be tiring, and there are periods of boredom in longhaul flying - however I still love the job and my passion for aviation hasn’t dwindled in the almost 3 decades I’ve been at it.

I don’t work for a low cost carrier and think we’re pretty well compensated and have a good work life balance with our rosters.

As plenty have said - it’s not for everyone. You can definitely earn the same money in other fields. Passion and perseverance are the only real pre-requisites to a happy career in aviation.

[Uplinker]

@ Sam Ting Wong: Yes, nowadays terms and conditions are terrible, the pay and duty hours are terrible and - pilots and their union are terrible at standing up for themselves to get improvements.

But when actually airborne, I have a very positive mind set. Even when I am flying long-haul, for hours over the ocean, I think to myself "Here I am, in control of a superb, really advanced aircraft, with superb, really advanced triple spool Rolls Royce engines, flying to XYZ, how cool is that?" During quiet times I might read something technical, such as a subject in the FCTM or Airbus Safety First, or whatever - just to add to my knowledge. At night I might look at the stars, planets and the Space station going over.

On short-haul there are positives too, if you look for them.

If you are regularly seriously tired, something is wrong with your pre-flight preparation, by which I mean your sleep 'hygiene'; perhaps review that and make some changes to ensure enough sleep. Also check with your GP. I went to my GP after just scraping through a recurrent Sim once, which I normally don't have a problem with, and to my great surprise he told me I was very stressed and he signed me off work for 2 weeks there and then. I was totally shocked because I didn't feel stressed at all.


@ OP Tim; perhaps your son might also look into working for Airbus in Toulouse? Fluent French and English speaker would be an advantage there.

[paco]

With reference to Plan B - we advise our students not to bother with degrees but do something that can be picked up and dropped with the cyclic nature of aviation. Being an electrician is a lot less dirty than being a plumber :) and it actually bears a small relationship to the exams.

[blind pew]

I worked 4 years on building sites then my parents subsidised me at a sponsored flying college. I then spent 4 years on a salary way below industry normal where we dined on offal, cheese and eggs. Until I had done 7 years my parents paid for our holidays which was to join them in the South of France doing light work. 20 years to a command and at times eight days off a month..Three legacy carriers.
8 years ago I was talking to a FR captain in MRS on a hundred grand plus net with 4 on 4 off..would have jumped at that.
Its about living the dream.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Just expanding on routes a bit.

I left school wanting to be an aeronautical engineer, and got onto a great degree course. En route through that, I spent some time as what I suppose you might call an intern in a flight test department, which really really impressed me, and left me deciding that I wanted to spend my career in the overlap areas between flying and engineering. And I have.

En route, I've done two PPL courses, two CPL courses, two IR courses, an instructors course, a multi-engine course, and most of test pilot school. All but the last I paid for myself. (basically nobody self funds through TPS, it makes an integrated fATPL course look incredibly cheap). I've also done two engineering degrees: a BEng and a PhD, along with an additional university teaching qualification, become a Chartered Aeronautical and Mechanical Engineer, as well as gaining the Eur.Ing. qualification letting me practice as a professional engineer across Europe. Pretty much all of those academic and engineering qualifications were covered my a combination of the state and my various employers.

I've been in continuous flying practice for the last 32 years, I've been unemployed in all that time for less than 4 months, and I've a few things and range of aircraft types in my logbook that the vast majority of professional pilots can only dream of - if not as many flying hours as most of them will have. The only time in all of that I was heavily in debt was after an (in retrospect) very poor decision to buy an aeroplane and lease it to a flying school - where everything went wrong, but I recovered from that.

My point here is that jumping straight into an intensive professional flying course, and then an airline cockpit, is far from the only way to do things in this industry - and from my personal perspective certainly not the best either. Many people have done variations on what I've done - gained professional qualifications that usually lead to more secure and reliable employment, at less initial exposure, and en-route used the professional income to build flying qualifications. Some have chosen simply to have flying as a hobby, some have chosen to jump into full time professional flying when they were able, some - like me - have gone for a more hybrid career. But we do all have two things in common: that we've not gone badly in debt, and we took a few more years to get the professional flying qualifications.

But, realistically, if your son dives in now, he may be employable in a professional cockpit (whilst servicing huge debts) at 21, if he pursues some other professional qualifications and gains the flying qualifications, he'd be thus employable in his mid/late 20s, without the debt, and probably with much valuable life experience as well. It is entirely reasonable also, as I have, to do all of this within the aviation industry. For all of us, we're employable as professional pilots up until at least 65, and the difference between a 38 and 43 year career really isn't that important, I'd argue.

There are more routes than the ones being proposed by those selling expensive training courses!

G

[gwynorod]

2 things to check first,
a. Confirm he has the aptitude to complete commercial flying training. Aptitude testing is available from a number of sources in the UK.
b. Pass a Class 1 medical examination

[172_driver]

There is plenty of good and objective facts in this thread.

Of course I would love our son to stay with as and the rest of his family here in France but this is not about me this is about him and I'm not a pilot as I'm certainly not clever enough to pass any of the exams let alone fly a plane! I'm just a dad with a passionate about flying son and within the next 2 years he will make some decisions which will change the rest of his life and with all of our children I want to give him the best advice possible.

To answer this. Regardless where he gets his license he has to be prepared to move. I am from northern Europe but have worked in the US and all over Europe. After almost 8 years on the run I finally landed a good flying job where I wanted to settle down (well, alomst...). Having to move about isn't necessairly a bad thing, it's also an opportunity! That said - and every pilot has their own preferences and experiences - the geogrpahical scarcity of flying jobs can be a major hurdle to happy family life. If your employer goes bust or lay you off, you can't just walk across the street and get a new job. Often you'll be looking at a different continent. I know he's 18 and doesn't think about it that way, but could be good to know.

I am a former flight instructor and now airline pilot, though I have been on the ground for 2+ years thanks to Covid. Just getting back in the air as I have been re-employed by my former company. In the mean time I have been studying software development. My advice is not to rush flight training. Keep the cost down and do modular training. You can set your own pace, even work on the side to pay for it in part. The gamble to set yourself up with a big debt early is risky, most people with some life experience knows that... Many start their flying careers around 30 anyway. Of my old students I had engineers, jurists etc.

[Contact Approach]

Unfortunately there is no way around the extortionate costs of flight training these days as there seems to be a steady stream of wannabe pilots signing up to pay for anything they can, that tells you all you need to know about this industry. There are few to zero jobs available for the majority of those who graduate with fresh licences and no experience. Ryanair is the most common route but they ask you to pay 30,000 euros for the privilege and then offer you a 16k salary in return, this is after spending 90k on your licence before your application lands on their desk.

The military is his only way of getting some cost free flying these days however he’ll still have to complete civil flight training once he’s out so the cost is unavoidable, it’s daft!

I’d sadly not recommend this career anymore… covid, brexit and the bizarre diversity hiring quotas being the final nail.

[Ivan aromer]

I have not read the whole thread so at the risk of restating the obvious there a few pointers I may be able to offer.
First thing (or tout d'abord if you prefer!) make sure he will be able to get a class one medical, anything less is usless for a commercial pilot.
Apply to Jet2, they have there pilot apprentice scheme, which was quite successful when I was there.

[notairbusdriver]

Hi,

You will also need to consider CAA vs EASA licenses. I'm not sure if someone mentioned this but if you want to charter your own plane for private flying and or cargo ops you will need CPL, you cannot do this from just the PPL

[DCS99]

We're sending our boy to South Africa for his PPL in 2 years time when he's 18.
But only after a medical and aptitude tests.

We live in the Gulf and have some money stashed away.

We're not thinking beyond the PPL right now.
More important for us is to give him independence where he escapes from the Middle East bubble of having a nice Ethiopian maid wash and iron his clothes etc.
And personal responsibility: cooking, cleaning etc.

Good luck to your boy

[Bergerie1]

I was exceedingly lucky, being on the first intake to the College of Air Training, Hamble in 1960. Not only was the training excellent, being done by first class instructors mostly with wartime experience, but also with an extensive ground school course well beyond ATLP and FNL requirements, and largely paid for by BOAC and BEA. Looking back, it must have been one of the best civil flying training establishments - ever. I doubt whether you could get training of the same standard today except in the military.

Looking at the industry today, I agree with most of what the previous posters have said about the cost and difficulty of landing a good job in a reasonable timeframe. Life today is very precarious in an industry run by accountants and 'head office' managers with little interest in the finer points of aviation rather than by real aviators. I have to say, although I enjoyed my airline career enormously and as much as I relished the joy of flying, sadly, I doubt I would follow a similar career today.

Nevertheless I wish the young lad the very best of luck.

[inmate]

T Father,
All good advice and food for thought from the previous reply's.
Have you or your son given any thought to the US route? I took that route back in 1971 and I was able to achieve my goals in both fix wing and helicopters over a 50 year career. Take a look at Embry Riddle Aeronautical University, just another option for both of you. Just to sound like a broken record: Get a medical first!!! Also bear in mind that some medical problems can be overcome with both waivers and acceptable medications so don't total throw away your dreams.
The very very best of luck to your son.

[rudestuff]

Apply to Jet2, they have there pilot apprentice scheme, which was quite successful when I was there.This is a great way into the company, but unfortunately you need an fATPL first - they won't train anyone to fly.

[Saintsman]

There is nothing wrong with wanting to be a professional pilot, but as people have pointed out, it’s not without it’s issues, particularly the debt incurred. If the boy just wants to fly, then it might be worth just doing the PPL and flying for fun. Flying when he wants to and not when he has to. Flying when the weather is nice and not miserable. He’ll still be a pilot and no one will think less of him because he doesn’t fly large jets.

Even with a PPL, you can achieve quite a bit when you have instrument and multi engine ratings.

As he is already going down the PPL route, I would recommend an intensive course, somewhere the weather is nice. I went to Texas to learn and did the course in three weeks. It would have taken months in the UK and was significantly cheaper. Of course, I still had lots to learn, but once I had the licence, I could Fly at my convenience and not have to rely on others to build hours.

I will say he is lucky to have a father so interested in his career and is prepared to solicit advice on his behalf. I hope it works out for him, whatever route he takes.

[CVividasku]

You should also consider the environmentalists who want to tear down any form of aviation.
I would recommend a serious training or education in a completely different and very reliable field, such as anything related to food, health, defence, logistics, or raw materials...

[NutLoose]

When paying for courses etc, do it on a card so you will have some cover if the company goes bust.

[Sam Ting Wong]

My prediction is driverless aircraft on the market within 10 years time. First electric velocopter, then some sort of cargo drone and eventually autonomous passenger planes. Maybe with some poor lonely guy sitting in front of a couple of screens imposing as a "pilot".

Airlines in turn will be able to recruit less educated, cheaper "pilots". Think of a barely literate Uber driver from East Europe following blindly the company GPS instead of your black cab cockney chap with "the knowledge" exam under his belt.

I am aware I sound gloomy, but whatever your outlook, even the most pilot-centric individual would just have to admit that automation will happen and significantly (further) reduce responsibility, difficulty and range of action.

Like it or not, AI will lead to replacement of any operator of machines, or ( even worse) degrade operators to an extra. This is the future, it is inevitable.

I am a senior long haul captain and never had a really bad employer, no accident, no divorce, always well paid, at times even excellent. But was it all worth it? I struggled with expat life and extreme boredom, jet lag, mediocre hotels and lack of social life due to difficult work patterns and many relocations. Still, I am not bitter ( I think) , just extremely pessimistic on the future of this industry. I told my son early on I will finance him any education he likes except flight school.

[ChrisVJ]

I have read and enjoyed all the comments on here and I am probably going to earn the ire of all these fine guys by commenting. (I am not a professional pilot.)
At 18 I went for selection for a flying scholarship. My father was a pilot, my stepfather was a pilot and I went to a school where the RAF and flying were almost a tradition. After all the tests I was informed I was colour blind. Actually daltonic, just red/green.
I have had (and I hope continue) a wonderful life, a PPL and eventually built my own aircraft but reading the way the pilots who had the career of which I was deprived describe their lives makes me feel they sound like a bunch of spoiled brats. If they hated it so much why didn't they leave? Maybe the only serious regret in my life.
Three of my sons went the military route. One is out, one comes out in a couple of months, the other may stay in, or not. I have to say they have all gained life long friends, something they didn't do at school or at college and their training, while frustrating at times, has been outstanding.
If your son really wants to fly he should find a way and you should support him but do not go into debt for him. I didn't, I wouldn't and neither should you. He wants it bad enough he'll do it on his own.

[paco]

Chris - for many, the flying is the icing on the cake for the nonsense you have to put up with. I love flying helicopters, especially on a clear day in Canada when the trees are changing colour, but I don't like eating rotten food provided by contractors to the Forestry trying to make a buck on my back. Aviation is an industry largely influenced by non-experts. Tio get the best out of it, you need a position where you have a measure of control, as with the military. But it's not restricted to aviation - my brother tells me that trucking is not much different.

[LTNman]

A few easyjet facts here regarding training and costs.

https://becomeapilot.easyjet.com/

https://www.cae.com/civil-aviation/become-a-pilot/our-pilot-training-programmes/generation-easyjet-pilot-training-programme/

[petit plateau]

I'm not a pilot. I am an engineer and for all sorts of reasons know a bit about what goes on. I know two youngsters who are training to be pilots at the moment:

- The first is from a wealthy family (i.e. UK upper-middle class). The parents are supporting the child to go through an aviation-related degree and also paying for them to do the integrated course, plus buying the child a rather smart car in the driveway. And living at home, costly holidays, etc etc. Essentially the family are seeking to buy the child a fully-assured pathway into a high status white-collar career. Other families put their kids through medical school or law school for the same reason, in this instance it is piloting.

- The second is not from a wealthy family. Took their school exams then moved out of home at age of 18 (plus one day !), into lodgings. Selected the lodgings to be close to cheap (but good) flying school and cheap lodgings, so is about 80-miles away from parents. Immediately started paying their own way in life by cleaning toilets (domestic house cleaner) and used the spare cash to go the modular route, bought their own (small, old, cheap) car. Worked and studied all hours, ferociously determined to be a pilot and to do it on their own. Zero parental support - the parents have never visited us (we happen to be the lodgings). As you can imagine this got noticed and within a year the local airline had taken them on for aviation-related airport (ground) work so was able to cut back on cleaning toilets, whilst still studying and paying their own way on the modular track

It is not the rich child's fault to be a rich child. But I have utmost respect for the second youngster. All things being equal I know I'd hire the second one over the first. But all things are not equal and the first may be able to ride out the financial economic cycles and be in the right place at the right time with the right connections in a way that the second one may not be able to. I've seen it work both ways over the years, sometimes life is not fair.

So - as others have said - it can be done, but have a plan B.

Meanwhile us engineers are doing our best to eliminate aircrew and to deskill them and to make them cheaper. That is an ongoing and longstanding trajectory - flight engineers and radio officers and navigators have gone and I expect that pilots per plane will reduce to one during the career duration of your son, perhaps to none.

In addition climate change issues are a very real concern. It is not popular to mention this around here, but the growth in aviation that has taken place since WW2 is (imho) unlikely to continue in the same way. That is going to cause a career crunch at some point.

Lastly, as others have mentioned your sone would be well advised to try to be on both sides of the UK/EU licencing regime.

[B2N2]

Your son has two things:

The privilege of time.
The privilege of changing his mind.

He’s 18, the chances of him changing his mind as far as a career path are at the very least 50/50. He may or he may not.
If he does you don’t want to be looking at paying off a £50k-£80k debt…or more.
Consider the privilege of time and pick an almost arbitrary year, 25.
That means he has 7 years to achieve his current goals which makes him a perfect candidate for modular training.
Current PPL, some time building in the US or Canada or South Africa next year.
Instrument rating somewhere 3 years from now, take 2 years for the ATPL exams.
Send him off to college or university and just keep up the flying in between with priorities given to advanced education.
He’ll have a degree and be ready to start applying for flying jobs anywhere in the world at 25 and with some planning mostly debt free.
Nothing is for free in life so he should get part time jobs to at least pay for a portion of it himself. How much is up to the two of you to decide.
A part time job that pays $€£500/month means 6000/year means every two years he can do the next license/certificate or rating with some financial help from you.
I can elaborate more if you wish but that would be my recommendation.

[Chris the Robot]

Bristow are currently recruiting cadet pilots for their helicopter operations and they fund the training (except living costs), in the UK they fly to/from the oil rigs in the North Sea and also provide Search and Rescue capability.

https://www.flyheli.co.uk/bristow/

Prior to the pandemic, Aer Lingus ran a fully sponsored pilot training programme from around 2015-2019, I have no idea if/when it will re-open.

The US currently has a very strong recruitment market though in the UK/Europe it doesn't look like a good time to start training to me. We have very high energy prices, increases in the cost of living and I wouldn't be surprised if we see a recession in the next 18 months. Essential living costs will take priority over holidays and now that businesses have become much more accustomed to remote working, I can see a lot of them very quickly cutting business travel to save costs.

[Xeptu]

@ Sam Ting Wong: Yes, nowadays terms and conditions are terrible, the pay and duty hours are terrible and - pilots and their union are terrible at standing up for themselves to get improvements.

But when actually airborne, I have a very positive mind set. Even when I am flying long-haul, for hours over the ocean, I think to myself "Here I am, in control of a superb, really advanced aircraft, with superb, really advanced triple spool Rolls Royce engines, flying to XYZ, how cool is that?" During quiet times I might read something technical, such as a subject in the FCTM or Airbus Safety First, or whatever - just to add to my knowledge. At night I might look at the stars, planets and the Space station going over.

On short-haul there are positives too, if you look for them.

If you are regularly seriously tired, something is wrong with your pre-flight preparation, by which I mean your sleep 'hygiene'; perhaps review that and make some changes to ensure enough sleep. Also check with your GP. I went to my GP after just scraping through a recurrent Sim once, which I normally don't have a problem with, and to my great surprise he told me I was very stressed and he signed me off work for 2 weeks there and then. I was totally shocked because I didn't feel stressed at all.

I hate to burst your bubble, but you sound like the classic diligent job first career pilot that truly believes your a valued employee. I truly hope you don't get to discover the truth that your just a number and no-one will notice if you don't turn up tomorrow before you retire. After about two years they won't even remember your name.

[Union Jack]

My prediction is driverless aircraft on the market within 10 years time. First electric velocopter, then some sort of cargo drone and eventually autonomous passenger planes. Maybe with some poor lonely guy sitting in front of a couple of screens imposing as a "pilot".

Airlines in turn will be able to recruit less educated, cheaper "pilots". Think of a barely literate Uber driver from East Europe following blindly the company GPS instead of your black cab cockney chap with "the knowledge" exam under his belt.

I am aware I sound gloomy, but whatever your outlook, even the most pilot-centric individual would just have to admit that automation will happen and significantly (further) reduce responsibility, difficulty and range of action.

Like it or not, AI will lead to replacement of any operator of machines, or ( even worse) degrade operators to an extra. This is the future, it is inevitable.

I am a senior long haul captain and never had a really bad employer, no accident, no divorce, always well paid, at times even excellent. But was it all worth it? I struggled with expat life and extreme boredom, jet lag, mediocre hotels and lack of social life due to difficult work patterns and many relocations. Still, I am not bitter ( I think) , just extremely pessimistic on the future of this industry. I told my son early on I will finance him any education he likes except flight school.

Looks like your moniker should really be "Sam Ting Wight"!:)

On a broader front, I'm very impressed with the high standard of advice being offered across the board to a very sensible sounding parent.:ok:

Jack

[Uplinker]

I hate to burst your bubble, but you sound like the classic diligent job first career pilot that truly believes your a valued employee. I truly hope you don't get to discover the truth that your just a number and no-one will notice if you don't turn up tomorrow before you retire. After about two years they won't even remember your name.

Ha ha ! Thank you, but don't worry - I am very diligent, but am older than you presumably think I am and have had two full and different careers. The first one was not aviation related, the second involved full-time employment in four UK airlines.

In recent years my colleagues and I were made redundant from the last two of these - both respected UK short and long-haul fleeted airlines - owing to them both going out of business one after the other. I was on front line flying since soon after my Pprune join date, so have experienced flying generally going down hill, in terms of worsening pay, worsening T's & C's, longer duties and greater fatigue etc. In the first of the two defunct airlines, I was in absolutely no doubt about being valued or remembered by anyone ! My 'bubble' has been burst many times already !!

I just find it very important to be positive and enjoy whatever you do for work and if not; to move on.

(For what it's worth, I am currently freelancing back in my first career, to keep the wolf from the door, and this year am in strong demand I am very pleased to say :ok:).
.

[172_driver]

It was just a matter of time, this thread is starting to derail from disgruntled pilots (I am one of them btw!)
The advice so far has been of high quality, let's keep in that way. Lock the thread if necessary. I think the objective has been reached.

[rudestuff]

...but reading the way the pilots who had the career of which I was deprived describe their lives makes me feel they sound like a bunch of spoiled brats. If they hated it so much why didn't they leave? Maybe the only serious regret in my life.You find this attitude a lot amongst pilots who've never had a "normal" job: Their definition of normal is just so far removed from reality that they'll complain about being fatigued whilst pulling in 6 figures. Because they've only ever seen the world from one perspective they simply don't comprehend how lucky they are. The guys who worked their asses off in various jobs in order to become a pilot tend to be a bit more appreciative.

[casper64]

ALWAYS try Military first:
1) It provides by far the coolest most fun flying there is
2) It provides friends for life
3) It is Free! You actually GET payed.
4) Transition from military to civilian can be done later, will be cheaper and you bring a lot of experience..👍

[Xeptu]

Ha ha ! Thank you, but don't worry - I am very diligent, but am older than you presumably think I am and have had two full and different careers. The first one was not aviation related, the second involved full-time employment in four UK airlines.

In recent years my colleagues and I were made redundant from the last two of these - both respected UK short and long-haul fleeted airlines - owing to them both going out of business one after the other. I was on front line flying since soon after my Pprune join date, so have experienced flying generally going down hill, in terms of worsening pay, worsening T's & C's, longer duties and greater fatigue etc. In the first of the two defunct airlines, I was in absolutely no doubt about being valued or remembered by anyone ! My 'bubble' has been burst many times already !!

I just find it very important to be positive and enjoy whatever you do for work and if not; to move on.

(For what it's worth, I am currently freelancing back in my first career, to keep the wolf from the door, and this year am in strong demand I am very pleased to say :ok:).
.
Yep that's about my experience and memory of it too. I'm concerned for the ones that came into the Industry over the last 20 years (precovid post /911) during the boom time and were lucky enough to get the dream run. They think that's the norm and how it is, it is their experience that has so much influence on the wannabee pilot and those like the OP. As for getting out as someone else mentioned, that's a big deal after being in it for a time, years taken verses income, it's a case of not viable to do anything else.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Airbus captain here. Haven't read the whole thread, looks like most of the issues have been covered very well, here's my 0.02 on a couple of other things

He has time on his side. 18 year old pilots sitting in Airbuses are beloved by flying school marketing departments for brochure making purposes but they aren't actually all that common in the real world. Early / mid 20s yes, 18 no. I personally recommend a year or two between finishing high school and making such a big career decision. If he works his ass off for those couple of years, saves some money and at the end of that time he's still determined to commit that money to flight training then I think you'll be able to approach the decision with a lot more confidence.

Don't believe ANYTHING that a flying school marketing department tells you in terms of potential earnings and time to be earning them. Yes you can still earn the big bucks when you're in the captain's seat of a big jet. For many of us it took decades to get to that seat. I personally started full time training at the age of 22 and it took 20 years to pay off my 100K student loans. I spent many years working as a flight instructor / air ambulance pilot / copilot on an old cargo turboprop aircraft etc, before I got my first passenger jet first officer job. That's the reality for just about everyone who doesn't get lucky with sponsored courses.

I finally got my big jet captain position in my early 40s, did it for 3 years and then covid struck, I've spent the last 2 years working as a casual labourer and sliding back into overdraft, it's gonna take me ANOTHER year or two to get back to where I was financially before covid. The medical checks get harder as you get older, when I finally get called back to work, I'll have pretty much one decade to finally make some decent money, assuming no more industry crisis or medical issues. It's compulsory retirement at 60 in the Asian country where I work now, so that'll be the end of that :hmm:

I'd almost certainly be better off financially if I had sunk that money into a house deposit 20 years ago, grabbed a couple of rentals along the way and done a normal career that doesn't cost 6 figure sums to get into. Can't look back with regret because flying is cool, but there's a MASSIVE cost of lost opportunity that isn't talked about enough.

My advice, do the class 1 medical as everyone says, read the fine print on the "sponsored" courses and if you find a good one by all means apply, discuss the individual courses with the boys and girls on here as you apply for them, there's a lot of fish hooks in a lot of them nowadays. If you don't get lucky with that, then get your pilot licence the old school "modular" way, save a heap of cash, and work your way up from the bottom.

Ultimately flying isn't really about who's the best or the most naturally talented, it's about being in the right place right time in the good times, and being a stubborn SOB clinging on with the tip of your fingernails and refusing to give up on the dream in the bad times.

Final thought, Brexit has severely limited the options for UK citizens / UK licence holders, if he's able to work in Europe then I'd probably advise him to go that route as opposed to a UK one, it's a much bigger market overall and Brits are now unfortunately locked out of it

Cheers, LST :ok:

[glofish]

It’s actually a no brainer: Make a business plan


Initial investment (training and cost of living during training) (A)

Expected initial salary - > career -> top salary -> expected career duration. This leading to professional life income (B)

Expected lifestyle and its cost (C)



Expected pension funds (company/self) (D)

Expected retired lifestyle and its cost for 20 years (E)



B - A = C

E - D = F





If C and F remain in positive figures, give it a try.

But don’t forget: In aviation there is a sacred rule, namely “always have an alternate”. This applies right from the beginning of your career!

[Shrike200]

I've been in the airline industry for nearly twenty years.

Here's my 2c, and the only part you really need to understand: The two people who's lives I value the most, above all others (my children) have been given the following STRONGLY worded advice on a career in airlines: NO. DON'T DO IT.

Enough has been said why in the thread, but I'll add my own little part: The sheer randomness of the career. People will tell you it's about effort and being proactive. Not in my experience. That's basically a given. Everybody who's made it has put in a lot of effort. Yet the career is still utterly random. When asked where a prospective candidate for employement sees themselves in an interview in other careers, the candidate may well be able to give a coherent, logical response on career progression. As a pilot? Well, in my experience the best answer you can give is "Employed. Hopefully as a pilot." The cyclical nature of the industry, medical requirements etc. meansyou could be out on the street at any time. It is BRUTAL on family and social life. Hobbies etc, things that you need fixed times for.......gone. People who didn't do this job, then whine about how pilots act like 'spoiled brats'.....well, you didn't do it. You simply don't know what you're talking about. And don't bring up some random example of one of the epicly good jobs in aviation, 99% will not get there, and it has little to do with lack of effort on their part, as I said, that is a given.

It's a great job - and a terrible career.

[pilotmike]

It’s actually a no brainer: Make a business plan


Initial investment (training and cost of living during training) (A)

Expected initial salary - > career -> top salary -> expected career duration. This leading to professional life income (B)

Expected lifestyle and its cost (C)



Expected pension funds (company/self) (D)

Expected retired lifestyle and its cost for 20 years (E)



B - A = C

E - D = F





If C and F remain in positive figures, give it a try.

But don’t forget: In aviation there is a sacred rule, namely “always have an alternate”. This applies right from the beginning of your career!
You didn't define 'F' in the equations above. Here's my helpful suggestion:

'F' = F all.

[Uplinker]

Some previous posts make a good point too. Your son should get an alternative career, or at least an alternative skill and qualification before starting down the airline pilot route.

It always surprises me that many pilots have no other skill or ability, so they end up on a building site or driving a delivery van for pennies after being made redundant from the cockpit.

Just to reinforce what others are saying; don't believe the hype from flight schools. I don't know the exact figures, but out of every 100 students, maybe 30 will get onto the big shiny jets, and maybe 1 will get to be a rich Captain - certainly not all of them.

I would suggest that after passing his Class 1 EASA medical, your son does an aviation related degree, and/or applies to Airbus. He is very young so the actual airline flying can come later, and he will have his tech. career to pay his rent and support his loan for the frozen ATPL, and to fall back back on while waiting for that first pilot job opportunity.

[roll_over]

I would caution against going into aviation, it’s not a real career, atleast in Europe.

The training is expensive, any time there is a downturn aviation gets destroyed, you risk losing your medical and the job has very few transferable skills. Even in the same industry your skills are mostly non transferable, if you were flying the 777 good luck applying for a job on the 320 or 737. There are far too many risks for too few rewards.

[redsnail]

Lots of great advice, especially the one about getting a Class 1 medical. No, you don't have to go to an AME, you can look up the requirements online and ask your family doctor and optician to check things out.
Don't ignore the couple of elephants in the room, namely the environmentalists and the single pilot flight deck. Given the huge surge in demand as soon as the borders opened up, maybe that one will fade and also, there are a lot of smart engineers and chemists out there. Coupled with the possibility of short haul e-props, the future may be ok. As for the single pilot flight deck? It's coming. Just not exactly sure when but there are several serious projects under way. The UK ergonomics society put out a white paper about it in 2020. Worth a read (https://ergonomics.org.uk/resource/tomorrows-aviation-system.html).

I just spend a fun 6 days flying with a former BA pilot. We were chatting about the industry (naturally) and agreed that our sector (business jet ops) was probably the most interesting in commercial aviation.
We did run a cadet scheme in the past and may do so again in the future (no one knows). However, this side of commercial aviation is expanding rapidly. Much to Greta Thunberg's annoyance.

Definitely get some life exposure before signing up for a full time course, especially if it's a "tagged" scheme that leads straight to an airline job. You'll need something to talk about in the cruise. The advice about getting some skills in computing or a trade is very sound. You can always get a degree later (that's what I did).

As for the UK v EASA licence? There's a lot more jobs in EASA land than the UK. If you can, get both.

[das180]

Well there's lots of good advice here already, but here is my 2p. I'm not a commercial pilot, but would have loved to have been one when I was 18. In retrospect though, I don't think it would have been a good life choice. (I do love flying, do have 300 hours gliding, which was enormous fun, and did have to stop for medical reasons, so that would have messed up the commercial flying career anyway).

Your son should think hard about what he wants to do. If he wants to be a commercial pilot, then ask himself why? It's a very specific goal. Or does he love flying ? That's a more general goal, and possibly more realisable? Does he love the tech of flying? Again, a more general goal. And in any case, whatever you think you want to do at 18, as you mature your goals and desires often change.

As others have said, he is young and that gives him great opportunity. Being bilingual is also an advantage on his peers. Why does he need to to rush to be in the seat of an A320 in his twenties? (apart from the general argument that if you don't put everything into achieving that goal it just may not make it all, as life's distractions get in the way). I would suggest that he thinks about (a) getting an Engineering degree related to Aviation (if he loves flying that ought to be an interesting thing to do), that he does as much flying as he can afford while he does that, maybe with some parental loans (sadly the degree cost a lot too....bum), and meanwhile tries various different types of flying where he can. Do as much of the modular route as he can, according to finances. Try some gliding, do the PPL route, maybe get to be flying instructor, go and look at the aviation engineering job market, go to flying clubs and talk to the instructors there who will have a wide range of experiences (at my gliding club there were military pilots, 747 pilots, a guy who lead part of the Airbus wing design team, and a guy who was the chief pilot for the British Antarctic survey - they were all just normal guys and eminently approachable). Talking is free and you can learn a lot that way about the aviation industry (and life in general). If the flying does not work out, having a degree is a good thing to have in terms of getting a job outside flying.

Finally, it's clearly bloody hard to become a commercial pilot these days. But tell him not to give up, just because it's hard. I was fortunate and went to Cambridge in the 70s to do engineering. I have a picture on my study wall of me in a rowing eight on the Cam. Sitting just behind me is a guy called Mike Foale, another engineer, who graduated a year later after me. He got a PPL shortly after he left Cambridge. Fifteen years later he flew as part of the crew of Space Shuttle STS 45, and eventually he flew six times in space. It just goes to show you can do anything you want, if you try hard enough and you are lucky enough to have the opportunities.

[Mr Good Cat]

Some previous posts make a good point too. Your son should get an alternative career, or at least an alternative skill and qualification before starting down the airline pilot route.

It always surprises me that many pilots have no other skill or ability, so they end up on a building site or driving a delivery van for pennies after being made redundant from the cockpit.

Just to reinforce what others are saying; don't believe the hype from flight schools. I don't know the exact figures, but out of every 100 students, maybe 30 will get onto the big shiny jets, and maybe 1 will get to be a rich Captain - certainly not all of them.

I would suggest that after passing his Class 1 EASA medical, your son does an aviation related degree, and/or applies to Airbus. He is very young so the actual airline flying can come later, and he will have his tech. career to pay his rent and support his loan for the frozen ATPL, and to fall back back on while waiting for that first pilot job opportunity.

Yup.

I have been very lucky in that I left school and quickly worked my way up in two of the world's biggest airlines. Then COVID happened and I actually realised I had nothing to fall back on, no qualifications or previous career, and no real transferrable skills. I could probably make a very good train driver but that's about it, and I think I would get bored very easily after landing jets worth hundreds of millions of dollars for the last 22 years.

Thankfully luck played a part and I have a job in one of the most secure leisure airlines around. The last two years were still extremely stressful though... Get a career first and slowly build into a pilot career, if you're still not put off by the negative aspects of the career.

[dekammeron]

First of all, I want to say that I'm in a business relation with a flight school from Slovenia, and I want to share my thoughts about your post:
It is true what some of the commentators are saying about the nature of the job... It can get a bit boring, but it all depends on what kind of flying you're doing (regional, long-haul, passenger, cargo, charter, etc) and where... in which company. There are companies where you fly for food, but there are also companies that keep the pay check level on a very lucrative level.
I have 38 years, I have two university degrees, I'm an independent aviation manager, but unfortunately was never able to start the training dues to my colour-blindness.
If someone would told me right now that I'm able to start the training, would I do so? In a heart beat!
But, I would be selective about my future job... I would definitely look more into business aviation, maybe cargo or aerial work...

Investment into pilot training is very different from country to country, from flight school to flight school. And so does the quality! Even though the training program is more or less the same in any flight school, the flight schools are not the same, the quality of the trainig is not the same, and at the end the pilot graduates are not the same.
There are instructors in the flight school that I'm working with, that are retired airline captains, and are saying that they will never step onto a airplane as a passenger, because they have witnessed how poorly trained pilots are coming in the cockpit as First Officers nowadays. So choose wisely! There is only one shot of becoming a good pilot... and most importantly, I found out that the students who are focused, attentive and hard working, get better jobs... and faster.

Anyway, if you haven’t yet decided about the flight school, I invite you to take a look, maybe even visit Aviation Career Center. They have a nice fleet of airplanes, knowledgeable instructors and a reasonable price.

Good luck

[BBK]

Hi Tim

You’ve doubtless realised that pilots are nothing if not opinionated! Some of the opinions are somewhat negative in my view but they’re valid for the person making them. I’ll come onto that in a moment. Regarding the Class 1 medical then absolutely need to get that before undertaking a course. That needs to be competed by an appropriately qualified AME. There’s no substitute for that and it isn’t cheap but even hobby flying requires a Class 2. I’m talking about the UK here although I’m sure the same will apply to every aviation authority.

After what has happened during the pandemic I would be very cautious about enrolling on an integrated course. I would suggest he gets the medical completed and all being well undertakes a PPL course first. If he shows the enthusiasm and aptitude then look at the modular route. I believe some of the schools in the UK offer dual UK/EASA courses. Unlike most UK students he presumably can work in France and possibly in the wider EU and of course he’s fluent in French I assume. If he can then by all means have another skill or qualification to fall back on.

Lastly, I would advise you and your son yes the airline industry can be brutal at times not least the last two years. However, after over 25 years in the business I haven’t ever regretted it and I left a secure job to start flying. I am unapologetically romantic about flying. For me I am not blind to the downsides, like nearly being made redundant twice, more that if he has a genuine passion to fly that helps to offset the negative aspects. It’s the best seat there is and if he ends up flying long haul there is the opportunity to travel to places he probably wouldn’t visit otherwise. Anyway, just my two penn’orth. Hope that helps.

BBK

[Genghis the Engineer]

I would suggest that after passing his Class 1 EASA medical, your son does an aviation related degree, and/or applies to Airbus. He is very young so the actual airline flying can come later, and he will have his tech. career to pay his rent and support his loan for the frozen ATPL, and to fall back back on while waiting for that first pilot job opportunity.

I'm going to sound a note of discord here.

An MEng in aerospace engineering costs probably 4 years of dedication, and at-least in the UK around £85k by the time you've added up tuition and living costs. That then qualifies you to apply for trainee positions at somewhere like Airbus - the idea of just walking into a job there designing airliners, is as laughable as getting a long haul captaincy five years after finishing an integrated fATPL. Those jobs go to people who spent years of dedicated study and work to get there.

If the desire is to have a backup to flying, and I totally get why that might be a sensible track - get a skilled trade, not a degree. Plumbing, cooking, teaching first aid - whatever it is. Something that's globally in demand and can be pretty much walked into. Pretty much without exception, degrees don't do that - a vocational degree is a tough, expensive, route into a prestigious and worthwhile profession (hopefully). What it isn't is a sensible backup plan.

The ONLY reason to do that degree, is because that is a realistic and desirable career path to the person pursuing it.

G

[das180]

Yes, there are many trades which provide a living - but they are not aviation. Okay, if you want to pilot an airbus and nothing else will do, and it turns out you can't get an airbus captain job, then being a bricklayer, electrician, paramedic, etc will put bread on the table. But if you are in love with aviation in general, rather than just Airbus captaincy, you probably won't be happy being a sparky, but you may be more happy doing something in aviation engineering rather than being outside the industry completely doing a job that you don't find interesting just to put bread on the table. Or alternatively, if you really, really want to be an airbus captain, then maybe anything else in aviation just won't do, and you would be happier outside the industry completely. Everyone is different. There are always tradeoffs. I agree a degree is horrendeously expensive these days, but many jobs are inaccesible without a degree. But taking a degree is a diversion away from the most direct route to that left hand seat. One only really finds out if one has made good choices in life, with the benefit of hindsight and then it turns out to be too late.

[petit plateau]

I fully support Genhis' comments re engineering (as a profession, as distinct from at the technician level) - and I've had as many fancy letters after & before my name as he has. If you think getting a good job as a pilot is a high risk pathway, then getting a good job as a professionaal engineer is even more difficult for reasons that are not relevant here. (and yes, I've had a fantastic time and earned the big numbers on the dream jobs)

Get a skilled trade as the fallback. Something that cannot reasily be automated and is not just grunt work, and which has good job market liquidity. Electrician and plumber/heating-technician and nurse/paramedic are all good fallbacks where you can get them under your belt to initial trade qualifications in 3-years from 18-21, then go the modular route as you earn your way, but always do just enough each year to keep your trade tickets 'live'.

[roll_over]

I fully support Genhis' comments re engineering (as a profession, as distinct from at the technician level) - and I've had as many fancy letters after & before my name as he has. If you think getting a good job as a pilot is a high risk pathway, then getting a good job as a professionaal engineer is even more difficult for reasons that are not relevant here. (and yes, I've had a fantastic time and earned the big numbers on the dream jobs)

Get a skilled trade as the fallback. Something that cannot reasily be automated and is not just grunt work, and which has good job market liquidity. Electrician and plumber/heating-technician and nurse/paramedic are all good fallbacks where you can get them under your belt to initial trade qualifications in 3-years from 18-21, then go the modular route as you earn your way, but always do just enough each year to keep your trade tickets 'live'.

A skilled trade to fall back on is good advice but if the advice when choosing to be a pilot is to have a skilled trade to fall back on then as others have alluded to it’s not a great ‘career’ choice.
Who wants to be flying, keeping up to date with fcoms etc , studying to be an electrician aswell as maybe enjoying life. It’s really sad that it has come to this.

[Kennytheking]

Been a long haul pilot for 16 years. Never done anything else so I can't comment on other jobs. I have loved it and would not change it. People here are not wrong when they say it be a challenge and lay-offs can happen - I imagine the same as any profession. If your children have no resilience or ability to handle rough times then they probably would not make a good pilot anyway.

I say if that is what he wants to do then go for it. Pilots will still have a long career and pilotless planes are still very far off.

[Xeptu]

On the advice to have another qualification other than Pilot I have a number of trade qualifications and while they have been a benefit doing my own renos and extensions I haven't used any of them professionally in the last 30 yrs. Today a number of my family members who are young and using them, laugh at any suggestion that I might come back into any one of their Industries, including driving heavy vehicles. I doubt they are any use once you been away from it for a number of years. Is there anyone in this forum that has.

[dui]

My son is 29 recently made Captain and is home every night.He trained in the UK with people from all around Europe.He started training just under 19y/o.He didn’t find the ATPL exams as easy as some of his contemporaries.As far as I know all his contemporaries that want to fly ended up with flying jobs,some sooner than others.I stopped counting at £120,000 which included his accommodation,living allowance and car.Total probably closer to £150,000.This was not at Oxford.He loves the job,good pay and conditions with plenty of free time.

[redsnail]

Hi Xeptu, my Shorts 360 training pilot went back to driving heavy vehicles (semi-artics). As he was a night freight pilot, driving a semi was a piece of cake night time wise :D
(Sadly he passed all too soon after a severe stroke)

[Xeptu]

Hi Xeptu, my Shorts 360 training pilot went back to driving heavy vehicles (semi-artics). As he was a night freight pilot, driving a semi was a piece of cake night time wise :D
(Sadly he passed all too soon after a severe stroke)

Ah the Shorts, flew the 330 myself about 40 years ago piece of junk it was. I hope the stroke wasn't because he went back to heavy vehicles. Life can be cruel eh!

[Uplinker]

Hey, don't be rude about Miss Piggy !, (the Shorts). The 360 was my first commercial 'plane, and got me on the aviation ladder. Happy days, (although I don't miss having to do the F/O pre-flight cockpit set-up !)

Hi Genghis and other engineers; Fair enough, bad idea. (I was not trying to suggest the OP's son would walk in to a design job at Airbus, (!), but I thought they might possibly have a junior trainee scheme he could work towards).

[Genghis the Engineer]

The training schemes at aircraft manufacturers are usually either 3+ year apprenticeships, or assume that the trainee arrives with a taught degree in aerospace engineering and start training from there.

I am somebody who has pursued parallel professional flying and engineering careers and qualifications, and it's worked for me - but it was never either an easy option, or a path (for me) to a full time job on an airline flight deck. For me it was about a deep passion for both strands of activity and a refusal to stop doing either.

G

[beatrix]

I recommend to not do it, and advise him to get into computer science. He will work remotely and live wherever he wants, never be out of a job and get plenty of money. He can fly for fun if he wishes. The world has changed and so should we.

You sound like my Flight Engineer dad back in 1996.... I still regret going into IT - looking to the air every time an aircraft flies over.. sat behind a desk in an office... Contrary to popular belief, there isn't a huge amount of money in most of IT.

[SpGo]

ENAC/ Air France cadet is the way to go!
Free training, highest salary and probable the best lifestyle in any airline in Europe.
Preparing the entrance exam will require a fair amount of study though, which will be a good test for his motivation.

[happyjack]

'Been unemployed, had to start again more times than I can think in aviation. Now the only thing employers are interested in you bringing to the table is a current ready to go licence and rating. No-one will spend on training. And aviation is an ongoing training life. It never stops. So the quoted 100k-130k costs are still only the beginning. What about further type ratings? I have been asked to "contribute" to ops courses. I have been forced to pay my own medical renewals. A year of unemployment will require more training and testing at massive cost. Who will pay? So be prepared to fork out all your career? This situation seriously eats into the ability to put some proper money in the bank. From my experience there are at most 20 years (more likely 10) where you can earn good dosh. That is not long to get some wealth behind you.
Airline flying is deadly dull, really dull. I could not take it. Everything is highly regulated so there is next to no hand flying anymore. You are a systems operator doing as you are told, nothing more.
General aviation is much more varied and interesting but very unstable, lower pay, usually no benefits and many cowboys around.
I got out of all of it a while back and haven't looked back at all. But I have the benefit of being single. Throw in a mrs and a family and it's really messy.
Would I do it again? I started in the 80's so perhaps yes if I could go back. But to do it today? Nope. Not a good life choice at all!
Get a proper career earning good money with benefits, learn to fly and buy an aircraft. That would be my choice.

[Specaircrew]

He could of course get paid to fly by joining the military, have 20 years of fun for free then transition to airline flying for a second career. Yes there’s a bit of marching at basic training but you soon fill your logbook full of interesting aircraft and if you fly big jets you can be in the left hand seat before you’re 25………no extra dosh for that though!

[CVividasku]

Lots of great advice, especially the one about getting a Class 1 medical. No, you don't have to go to an AME, you can look up the requirements online and ask your family doctor and optician to check things out.
Don't ignore the couple of elephants in the room, namely the environmentalists and the single pilot flight deck. Given the huge surge in demand as soon as the borders opened up, maybe that one will fade and also, there are a lot of smart engineers and chemists out there. Coupled with the possibility of short haul e-props, the future may be ok. As for the single pilot flight deck? It's coming. Just not exactly sure when but there are several serious projects under way. The UK ergonomics society put out a white paper about it in 2020. Worth a read (https://ergonomics.org.uk/resource/tomorrows-aviation-system.html).

Omg, they still think there can be any form of pilot shortage ?
There will be a pilot shortage when in spite of sponsored training and good working conditions there won't be enough pilots. The day that this will happen is exactly never.

[B2N2]

The negativity is off the charts in this thread.
I’m not going to argue it all, I stand by my previous advice earlier on.
I wouldn’t bother with a UK license, EASA only.

[25F]

SLF here. Interesting thread; hope I'm allowed a couple of observations.

Re: military flying. My late brother was ex-RAF and ended up left-hand-seat for Big Airways on long haul. Two things were clear during his training. One, that he could at any moment be thrown off the course and consigned to a desk job. Second, that it was dangerous. At the time (late 80s) it seemed like Hawks were plummeting into the North Sea on a weekly basis. He ended up reassigned to multis; after a three year tour on C-130 he got given a desk to fly and then left at the end of his 12 (or 8?) year sign-up. Point is, he might have ended up with no training at all.

Re: the future of aviation. If one asks "will there be fully autonomous pilot-less passenger airliners in a hundred years time?" then is anybody going to say "no"? The next question then is "when?".

[ChrisVJ]

Chris - for many, the flying is the icing on the cake for the nonsense you have to put up with. I love flying helicopters, especially on a clear day in Canada when the trees are changing colour, but I don't like eating rotten food provided by contractors to the Forestry trying to make a buck on my back. Aviation is an industry largely influenced by non-experts. Tio get the best out of it, you need a position where you have a measure of control, as with the military. But it's not restricted to aviation - my brother tells me that trucking is not much different.

Absolutely. But most professions have that initiation period before you van get the job that suits you. Want to be a nurse or a doctor? Heavy operator where you have to go North to get your first job?

If you got the profession you wanted and others wanted just as bad but couldn't it is perhaps somewhat churlish to complain that you are hard done by.

[megan]

One family's journey.

On leaving school I did an electrical apprenticeship in order to amass the wealth to learn to fly at the local club. On completion of the apprenticeship was accepted into the military for helo pilot training, tour in Vietnam, then into the civil world as a offshore oil pilot. Home every night, no touring, only night flew for currency or responding to emergencies offshore. Reasonable pay, nothing like a jet airline driver would get though, the pax we flew earnt more than us. Absolutely loved the work through to retirement.

Only child, daughter, asked for a loan, with promise to repay, to learn to fly. Had a very experienced instructor at a small country airfield who had a hand in a multitude of general aviation pies, no sausage factories. During a dual flight towards the end of training the instructor received a phone call, the lass hears him reply "I've got one sitting along side of me". Chap on the line wants a pilot for his business, lass says "but I haven't done my commercial ride yet", he doesn't need to know that was the reply. Commercial ride done and dusted, travel to the outback, spend two weeks running the office until the commercial paperwork arrived, then the flying started with an absolutely professional general aviation scenic company. That was the stepping stone to other companies and ending flying single pilot RPT on a Titan, marriage and children intervened and wanting a 9 to 5 job took up a position in the safety field for a smallish airline flying Embraer jets and Brasilias. Still waiting two decades later for the first repayment promised, things we do for our kids, was an absolute pleasure to see her progress, I look at the expense as entertainment, could have been spent on something frivolous otherwise, such as a hole in the water.

Her spouse was prompted to take up flying after seeing a EMS King Air at his local airport when a kid. Worked odd jobs such as stacking shelves during high school, learning to fly at the same time, running the aero club office and repaid in flying rather than cash. Finished school with CPL in hand, took an airline to where GA is prominent, arrived at 2300 with $20 in wallet, dragged suitcase around airport in the morning to the various operators and landed a job by 0800. now flys a King Air on single pilot EMS and does company check and training, also freelances. Absolutely no passion to move to something else.It is not the rich child's fault to be a rich child. But I have utmost respect for the second youngster. All things being equal I know I'd hire the second one over the firstYou may call me biased, but both the kids I mention above came to aviation by different routes, mine had hers paid for her, her husband worked for his, as I did, but both I would rate their work ethic and personalities equally, which one to give a job I'd have to flip a coin. Go ahead, you knew I'd say that. :p

Genghis, you're under qualified. ;)

[paco]

Chris - initiation period? Yeah, try being a junior lawyer. But I was talking about regular work as someone with several thousand hours. The remedy was to get evryone into a 212 and beetle off to the nearest oil camp for sandwiches. As it happens, I do know one or two people who went through company training then quit to run pubs. Nothing churlish about it - just not what they expected. Or at least, not what they were told during recruitment :)

[wanna]

T Father,

You've probably got a good idea of the industry by now but ill add my opinion. If earning large sums of money is the driving force then its probably not the career for him, hes best suited to joining a finance firm and working hard to move up the pyramid. If however its flying, working with great (generally) people visiting places you may otherwise not visit then flying is great. The best part for me is working together as a team to get the job done safely, on time with happy passengers and crew.

From my view point; The salary I earn from flying is low, higher than the UK average (somewhat) but around the average for the place I live. I fly a nice turboprop, I gained a command very early in my career and have had opportunities to do various things since completing my training. Training is by far the hardest part and can take some time. The cost of training may put you off, however look to modular. Many good schools in the U.K and France. The company I work for values Integrated and Modular equally, the offer of employment often comes down to whether or not the person is a nice person or not, although its a very old fashioned company. Modular can be much more affordable, means you pay as you go and allows breaks to raise more money.

For me the balance of work / home life is very good, but many of the perks of the company I work for are traded by the lower salary, its a life style that works for me, but not everyone. Life is always about compromise.

My journey to the flight deck wasn't straightforward, I worked within the training industry as well as a handful of very small companies doing everything, including cleaning. Earning very little money and having to work in shops / hotels at the same time to make ends meet. A couple of years after qualifying, earning my place at the table and getting to meet the right people I managed to get my first salaried job flying in a multi crew environment. Since then its only ever been up (with a few downs of course). In my opinion too many people expect things to be handed to them and when its not, give up. With the right attitude and the willingness to work hard, anything is possible. Just don't expect to earn a fortune and go to work once or twice a week.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Genghis, you're under qualified. ;)

Without a doubt, otherwise I wouldn't constantly be chasing new tickets (and wrestling with the ever shifting sands of what various authorities want to add them!) Somebody suggested a while ago that I'm probably driven by an over-developed inferiority syndrome, and they're probably right - thanks for supporting the viewpoint!

G

[ChrisVJ]

Chris - initiation period? Yeah, try being a junior lawyer. But I was talking about regular work as someone with several thousand hours. The remedy was to get evryone into a 212 and beetle off to the nearest oil camp for sandwiches. As it happens, I do know one or two people who went through company training then quit to run pubs. Nothing churlish about it - just not what they expected. Or at least, not what they were told during recruitment :)

Yup!
I had a fourth who crashed pilot selection. Went to RMC as Naval recruit. Hated it. Quit. Finished Uni and is now a realtor. Loves it and is doing very well indeed.

If you really, really want to fly then it is not about the money, the career, or even the divorce. If you don't you will be looking at every aircraft that goes over and thinking "That could have been me." I know, I do it. 77 and I still walk out when I hear an aircraft that is not the three times daily to Vancouver!

[paco]

"If you really, really want to fly then it is not about the money, the career, or even the divorce."

That's the point, though isn't it? I have always treated it as a business (i.e. not working for sandwiches and went into IT when I had to), especially as Her Maj paid for the training!

Phil

[megan]

Genghis, just to be absolutely clear, I'm full of admiration of folk, such as yourself, who have the ability to put in the necessary study to accumulate such a wide ranging span of knowledge, me, I'm no academic.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Genghis, just to be absolutely clear, I'm full of admiration of folk, such as yourself, who have the ability to put in the necessary study to accumulate such a wide ranging span of knowledge, me, I'm no academic.
Thank you. I did see your comment as entertaining banter and hope my response was appropriate to that.

G

[Airgus]

Nice bunch of good advises can be seen here.
T Father, I would suggest to invest in a gliding course, no need to take a loan nor do risky investments, and it is a healthy weekend activity for a youngster.
The glider will teach your son the pure sensation of flying, will open the door to get curious about aviation and learning, will put him in the aviation emviroment and will make him enjoy the flying by being motivated (it's not yet a full time course)
After 2 years, he would be having a couple of 100s hours as glider pilot, fully knowledgeable about what he really wants to do and starting the PPL at 18 either as modular or integrated, will be a good age.
Also in 2 years time you will have a better vision for aiming to EASA or UKCAA, or both.
Airgus

[rudestuff]

Nice bunch of good advises can be seen here.
T Father, I would suggest to invest in a gliding course, no need to take a loan nor do risky investments, and it is a healthy weekend activity for a youngster.
The glider will teach your son the pure sensation of flying, will open the door to get curious about aviation and learning, will put him in the aviation emviroment and will make him enjoy the flying by being motivated (it's not yet a full time course)
After 2 years, he would be having a couple of 100s hours as glider pilot, fully knowledgeable about what he really wants to do and starting the PPL at 18 either as modular or integrated, will be a good age.
Also in 2 years time you will have a better vision for aiming to EASA or UKCAA, or both.
AirgusWith 150 hours PIC in gliders you can go to the US and get an FAA private, Instrument, Commercial ASEL and CFI with just 100 hours of additional flight time.

With the right visa status that would be enough for a paid instructor position, which would enable you to build 1000+ hours and maybe even an FAA ATP whilst studying for the EASA exams. That's the cheapest way I know of to become a professional pilot.

[Olympia463]

There was a thread on PRune a year or two ago which covered this topic pretty thoroughly. The conclusions then were to get a good degree in engineering from a university that was recognised by the professional body that registers.engineers so that you have a fall back position if such a thing as Covid ever recurred. I did that and got a degree (1st class), joined a blue chip company, and the local gliding club. I got so enthused by gliding that I never moved on. Flying gliders is a different experience from any other kind of aviation. If flying is what you want to do, then forget about commercial flying. Find another career, and just enjoy flying whenever you like and whatever you like. I think there is NO relation between commercial power flying and real flying. I got all the flying I needed as an instructor with the added pleasure of sending people solo. I did 2200 sorties in about 1000 hours every one of which I enjoyed. I flew 27 different types in a 25 year career.I am too old now to fly solo except on the simulator. A good sim is Condor though you will need a very good computer to run it. Flying should always be fun. Just my tuppence worth.

Old wooden ship pilot

[JRK]

If flying is what you want to do, then forget about commercial flying.



This thread made me ponder a question: how many youngsters these days are driven by the whole image thing versus interest in the actual craft itself?

[Basic_Service]

[QUOTE=T Father;11229807]Thank you very much for the feedback & advice, seems that the cost of learning is such a huge part of flying. Have you met many pilots at 21 or 22 years old flying?
He says EasyJet has courses in the UK & RyanAir also offer a training program :?

I’m 21, and working as a flight instructor. Right now, there really aren’t that many jobs, and the people who are coming out of training and walking into airline jobs are having to pay large amounts for it…

Ryanair would be a great place to start, and I have friends who are paying for it, but it’s another -£35,000 on top of what you’ve already paid for all of your flight training so far. Not to mention, that you have to be an EASA licence holder, which is a whole different painful topic. It’s important to note, that the £35,000 doesn’t guarantee you a job, it’s just a training contract.

In terms of the EasyJet program, it’s just an MPL, so that comes with it’s own issues. They also use CAE as their provider, which is why the cost of it is £100,000+, which is enough to deter most people.

if your son wants to be a pilot, your best bet is getting him going down the modular route which is significantly cheaper, and you still have the same licence in the end. Depending how fast you want to train, it can be as fast as 2 years from zero to fATPL! He’ll gain loads of experience along the way, and then there’s opportunities for things like becoming an instructor once he qualifies in the event that there aren’t airline jobs at the time.

whatever you do, don’t fall into the trap of handing over more money than you really need to!

best of luck!

[The Blu Riband]

If flying is what you want to do, then forget about commercial flying. Find another career, and just enjoy flying whenever you like and whatever you like. I think there is NO relation between commercial power flying and real flying.

"NO" relationship? Really? How many commercial hours do you have that have led you to this conclusion?

For context, I've been flying 40+years. commercial, military, gliding, private, display 28,000 hours. Still love my job!

[happyjack]

33 years in it. The last few I saw a huge change. Really nasty characters everywhere. My love of flying dimished. I became very disheartened. It became an unpleasant rat race. I am not one to consider "dog eat dog" but that is all I was getting back. I got out when the chance was right. I would hate to be in it now. Flying yes. The flying business? No frigging way!

[Capewell]

I started my flying career in 2016 on a semi sponsored scheme with a big airline. I did an integrated course at Oxford. I am now 45 and am a senior first officer on the A320. The day job is great and my colleagues are brilliant. The pay is more than double what I was earning in my former career and I am home a lot more and a lot less tired.
However your training is a big investment and may never pay off if you dont have the right aptitude for the job. If he really wants to do this then he'll have to make it happen for himself and not rely on his dad to do the research. If you want a flying career these days your options are: join the military, self sponsor in the hope you hit the Labour Market at the right moment when you have your fATPL or do some thing else till an opportunity comes your way. BALPA and the Honourable Company of Air pilots are two bodies he should have a look at. Especially the aptitude testing day the latter offers. Don't believe any of the hype from the big flight schools. The industry is volatile and as mentioned above luck and timing has far more influence on your career than competence.

[blind pew]

There will always be whingers but if you want to fly and put everything into it very little beats looking down on the earth from 10ft or 5 miles.
One of my late friends had everything but moaned the whole time..fast jets for 20 years concurrently being paid for his training course then airline flying on salary better than Air France. Company went skint and he took a million from his pension fund to play vintage aircraft restoration and airshows ignoring advice. Turned down flying Thundercity kit..then flew executive jets for oligarchs tax free..last was a Chinese billionaire who treated him as a taxi driver whilst paying him probably on a quarter of a million salary. Young family with a pretty French wife. Heart attack did him.
Contrast that with the permanent (own choice) first officer 787 who checked me out in the aerobatic glider 24 years ago, sold paragliding to me (he and his late twin had set two world records) and is heavily into a flying charity. Can't do enough to share the passion.
Great life but not the best for family life unless you are lucky and have an understanding Mrs.

[SoftwareDev]

I started my flying career in 2016 on a semi sponsored scheme with a big airline. I did an integrated course at Oxford. I am now 45 and am a senior first officer on the A320. The day job is great and my colleagues are brilliant. The pay is more than double what I was earning in my former career and I am home a lot more and a lot less tired.
However your training is a big investment and may never pay off if you dont have the right aptitude for the job. If he really wants to do this then he'll have to make it happen for himself and not rely on his dad to do the research. If you want a flying career these days your options are: join the military, self sponsor in the hope you hit the Labour Market at the right moment when you have your fATPL or do some thing else till an opportunity comes your way. BALPA and the Honourable Company of Air pilots are two bodies he should have a look at. Especially the aptitude testing day the latter offers. Don't believe any of the hype from the big flight schools. The industry is volatile and as mentioned above luck and timing has far more influence on your career than competence.
Does that mean you were 39 when you started your career back in 2016? How did you find it starting at that age?

[pilotmike]

Originally Posted by Capewell View Post (https://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/646668-our-son-wants-airline-pilot-i-have-some-questions-6.html#post11233103)
I started my flying career in 2016 on a semi sponsored scheme with a big airline. I did an integrated course at Oxford. I am now 45

Does that mean you were 39 when you started your career back in 2016?
By my maths (45 - 2022 + 2016 = 39), yes, it does mean (s)he was 39 +/- 1 year when (s)he started in 2016.

[rudestuff]

How did you find it starting at that age?Are you saying 39 is old?!

[kghjfg]

I know 3 airline pilots.
1 captain and 2 First Officers.

They all have shares in light aircraft (as do I), there’s a reason commercial pilots also fly other aircraft.

I was talking to a commercial Captain the other day who is saving up for an RV.

OP, the question to ask is whether your son wants to fly or whether he wants to be an airline pilot. They’re not necessarily quite the same thing.

I love procedures and RT, I’d quite enjoy being an airline pilot. I also enjoy swooping around though, so, I have a well paid job in IT and I do both in light aircraft.

[SoftwareDev]

More that 39 is older to be starting as a pilot from what I've read.

[finestkind]

Plenty of advice that is pertinent. I think you son's reason to fly, as you stated, is to become a commercial pilot and see the world. Well why does he want to become a commercial pilot. Appears to be a bit of a romantic notion. Mind you I loved the idea of air travel as a very young bloke but after a few trips to England the shine wore off very quickly. I dare say it is the same with the attraction of flying and after the first few years the shine dulls. Also the initial attraction of staying at "5" (prob 2 now) star hotels with a bunch of attractive people also loses it's shine.

If he wants to see the world there are other careers that will be more secure with less of an arduous path (unless you are well enough to pay all up front) and pay more which will allow him to fly wherever he wants. If he wants to be a pilot, well as kghfg said, there is a reason that a lot of commercial pilots have there own or part share in an aircraft that does not have auto pilot. Going the military pathway will provide a reasonable amount of hack rack and zoom even if it is only during training with the added bonus of no out of pocket cost but some time cost.

He really needs to be sure of why he wants to be a commercial pilot. Is it a romantic notion and if so he need's to take a hard look at the reality of this career.

[rudestuff]

More that 39 is older to be starting as a pilot from what I've read.
A lot of people start between 30 - 40. It can take that long to self finance. Not everyone has the luxury of rich parents.

[Aviator172s]

A lot of people start between 30 - 40. It can take that long to self finance. Not everyone has the luxury of rich parents.

Agree. My question here is if airlines prefer youngsters in their early 20s or mid 30s more mature people with some other degree/professional experiencie aside from aviation. Guess depends on the airline or even the interviewers...

[rudestuff]

It all depends on the airline and the current market conditions. Ryanair are known for wanting younger more impressionable people with no life experience so that they do as they're told and don't complain. Easyjet are known for milking pilots for all they're worth via the integrated system. There are still a lot of other options where age and money aren't important. It's always been feast or famine in the airline world, and we're at rock bottom now so there will be a pilot shortage in the next few years (it's already hitting the US) so just make sure you've got a licence and a pulse.

[SoftwareDev]

Agree. My question here is if airlines prefer youngsters in their early 20s or mid 30s more mature people with some other degree/professional experiencie aside from aviation. Guess depends on the airline or even the interviewers... This is my concern. I'm 26 and will be 29/30 by the time I'm sending my CV out. I know I'm not old, but my main concern is what the typical airlines that non TR 200hr guys apply to, prefer to see.

[Aviator172s]

It all depends on the airline and the current market conditions. Ryanair are known for wanting younger more impressionable people with no life experience so that they do as they're told and don't complain. Easyjet are known for milking pilots for all they're worth via the integrated system. There are still a lot of other options where age and money aren't important. It's always been feast or famine in the airline world, and we're at rock bottom now so there will be a pilot shortage in the next few years (it's already hitting the US) so just make sure you've got a licence and a pulse.

I wish your predictions about pilot shortage will be correct in Europe!! Everytime I hear or read about pilot shortage I can't avoid thinking is just a myth, but hopefully this time is correct. My plan is to have everything ready by mid-2024, I am in my mid 30s and would love to accomplish my dream as a child... and still as a young adult :)

[hobbit1983]

I wish your predictions about pilot shortage will be correct in Europe!! Everytime I hear or read about pilot shortage I can't avoid thinking is just a myth, but hopefully this time is correct. My plan is to have everything ready by mid-2024, I am in my mid 30s and would love to accomplish my dream as a child... and still as a young adult :)

With the greatest respect (you may well not be guilty of this, but there are plenty who are) herein lies the nub of the problem; there are lots of aspiring commercial pilots who have dreamed of flying for a living. Somewhere along the way, in the process of chasing this dream, they forget that it is still a job, and should be treated as such. What happens is they end up accepting ever worse Ts & Cs to achieve their dream.

And a lot of airlines know this, and exploit accordingly, until we end up with people accepting peanuts to fly, paying for type ratings, working for free, or in some cases, paying to fly....

[Aviator172s]

With the greatest respect (you may well not be guilty of this, but there are plenty who are) herein lies the nub of the problem; there are lots of aspiring commercial pilots who have dreamed of flying for a living. Somewhere along the way, in the process of chasing this dream, they forget that it is still a job, and should be treated as such. What happens is they end up accepting ever worse Ts & Cs to achieve their dream.

And a lot of airlines know this, and exploit accordingly, until we end up with people accepting peanuts to fly, paying for type ratings, working for free, or in some cases, paying to fly....

I understand and agree with your statement. However, I do consider this as a job and a profession, with great sacrifices and renounces btw, and as such, it needs to be well rewarded or at least, respectful for people who work in the sector.
The good side about having an additional degree and experience, is that you do not need to accept whatever type of T&Cs your are offered at the very beginning after a fresh CPL licence, without even blinking...
That should be the standard in any case tho, but I reckon we are far from there sadly.

[SoftwareDev]

With the greatest respect (you may well not be guilty of this, but there are plenty who are) herein lies the nub of the problem; there are lots of aspiring commercial pilots who have dreamed of flying for a living. Somewhere along the way, in the process of chasing this dream, they forget that it is still a job, and should be treated as such. What happens is they end up accepting ever worse Ts & Cs to achieve their dream.

And a lot of airlines know this, and exploit accordingly, until we end up with people accepting peanuts to fly, paying for type ratings, working for free, or in some cases, paying to fly....

The biggest issue I'm seeing is the pay. Sitting here as a Software Developer in London at 26, I'd need to be in the left hand seat doing long haul for BA to get the same salary. Did it take £100k of training to get here? Absolutely not. I can also get a new job within a week if I wanted.

But it's not for me and I have no plans on settling down any time soon and have nothing really tieing me down anyway and that's why I'm looking at being a pilot rather than it being a dream. Living out of a suitcase jumping from hotel to hotel in a less than desirable part of Europe? No problem. Conditions and pay for entry level seem shameful for the work that has to be put in to get there.

[paco]

More than one pilot with that amount of money to spend has started their own aviation company.

[Uplinker]

You will call me cynical, but unfortunately pilots and their union(s) do not stand up for themselves.

Longer EASA duty times were allowed in with barely a murmur. UK allowing EASA licensed pilots but not the other way round. Pay and conditions are dropping.
I even had incredulous looks years ago from my own colleagues when I suggested that we lobbied to stop flying on Christmas Day. (Yes, I know it is lucrative for the airline, but we crews got no bonus for it - most other trades would get double or triple pay - and if the flights did not exist, passengers would simply fly before or after Christmas.)

So we see pilots now paying frankly obscene amounts to get themselves trained and type-rated, and then have to jump through numerous hoops and then possibly even have to pay to be employed, then have long duty days, but it's OK because there is a fatigue reporting system :mad:

PS, I started flying aged around 35, starting with night mail runs on very old, basic turbo-props, but ending up on the A330 before Covid struck. However, that was years ago, I don't know if it would be possible today.

[pilotmike]

The biggest issue I'm seeing is the pay. Sitting here as a Software Developer in London at 26, I'd need to be in the left hand seat doing long haul for BA to get the same salary.
Don't we all know it!!

It can be so humbling, that dreaded pay cut from well North of £200,000. Oh well, we all have to learn to tighten the belt and slum it like other mere mortals from time to time.

[Kelly Hopper]

Well I did almost 35 years in it and never got close to 200k! Close to 100k was doable but for that you had to be flying a "heavy" in the left hand seat, and doing it in unsavoury places with NO life at all outside the job! You were owned. I don't need humbling from that. It was sheer abuse!

[redsnail]

Uplinker, easyJet's UK BALPA threatened strike action over the implementation of the EASA FTLs ISO the UK CAA's which they'd been operating under. The vote was overwhelmingly to strike. easyJet capitulated and now (then) the FTLs were wound back to the UK CAA's with even more concessions. This was a few years ago now.
So occasionally, the pilots do stand up and when they do, it can be quite effective :)

[EcamSurprise]

I started flight training at 18. Airbus RHS at 20 and LHS at 26. Now a number of years later I’m facing a third round of redundancies and at the same time see brand new cadets replacing the more experienced crew. I love my
job, It’s fun and it pays well but I can’t see the future anymore and I wouldn’t recommend it to my own son. My 2c worth. You can PM me if you’d like.

[Uplinker]

Thank you redsnail. I don't recall that being the case in the UK airline I flew for at the time, but I might be mistaken. Looking at the state of the industry now though, with some airlines - including the one you mentioned, charging pilots £8,000 to be offered a job in a non UK base, (I am both type-rated and experienced); we don't stand up for very much. I chose to walk away.

There is a big contrast between aviation and broadcasting unions.