Qantas buys Alliance

[pinkpanther1]

Qantas this morning has advised the ASX of the acquisition of 100% of Alliance. Subject to ACCC approval. Didn't see that coming so soon.

[davidclarke]

Just what we need. Less competition.

This cannot be good for Australian aviation.

Let’s hope the accc stop this.

Yet another pilot group to play off against each other, further driving down wages…….

[AussieAviator]

Qantas this morning has advised the ASX of the acquisition of 100% of Alliance. Subject to ACCC approval. Didn't see that coming so soon.
I did!! As soon as the ACCC dropped the opposition to Qantas buying us, I knew that the Irishman would make a offer ASAP. From our flight planning procedures to normal operating procedures, Qantas has been creeping in, and I guess that we will have to wear the QF uniform, just like most of the FA's already do. Bring it on, I say!
https://cdn-api.markitdigital.com/apiman-gateway/ASX/asx-research/1.0/file/2924-02518444-2A1372231?access_token=83ff96335c2d45a094df02a206a39ff4

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1493/85518_embraere190artistimpression_810110_d52817ea8362fdab52f 2ed71daa296f3746cf41b.jpeg

[grrowler]

Just don’t ask about staff travel

[Mugsgame]

haha, what is it about QQ and staff travel!

[Capt Fathom]

How about a new fleet of Airbus 220 coming their way.

[IAW]

How about a new fleet of Airbus 220 coming their way.

Only if the pilots accept a C scale below the E jet contract pay! That's how the game works isn't it?
​​

[Australia2]

Aussie Aviator, I assume with that foresight you bought Alliance shares then?

[Icarus2001]

Qantas this morning has advised the ASX of the acquisition of 100% of Alliance. I think you mean Qantas intend to purchase.
Two big hurdles to jump. One is shareholder agreement and the trickier ACCC approval.

[Agent_86]

Qantas has announced it intends to purchase Alliance Aviation, three years after acquiring a 19.9 per cent stake in the carrier.

The airline said on Thursday that the move, which would see Alliance become a wholly-owned subsidiary of Qantas, would allow it to “better serve the growing resources sector”.

It comes just one month after the ACCC finally cleared Qantas’ stake in the airline (https://australianaviation.com.au/2022/04/accc-clears-qantas-stake-in-alliance-after-3-year-wait/), after a three year investigation into its impact on competition.

Alliance currently holds wet-lease agreements with both Qantas and Virgin, for the use of its fleet for regional, charter, and fly-in fly-out operations.

It also comes after Qantas exercised more options under its wet-lease with Alliance in March, for the use of 14 QantasLink-branded Embraer E190s, crewed by Alliance personnel. The agreement offers Qantas options to use up to 18 Alliance E190s under the QantasLink brand.Qantas said its existing agreement with Alliance will continue to operate as normal until any deal is finalised.

Qantas said the remaining 80 per cent share of Alliance would be acquired through a scheme of arrangement, where Alliance shareholders receive Qantas shares worth $4.75 for each share held in Alliance.

This represents a 32 per cent premium to Alliance’s volume weighted average price over the last three months, according to the airline Alliance’s directors have unanimously recommended the scheme, with Chairman Steve Padgett stating the transaction “represents a compelling opportunity for our shareholder to exit the Alliance business following a period of significant industry upheaval, and to realise a strong return on Alliance’s fleet assets”.

Qantas has informed the ACCC of its intentions, and the final deal will require formal approval from the competition watchdog. The deal is also subject to approval by Alliance shareholders.

Qantas purchased a 19.9 per cent stake in Alliance in 2019, and has long-flagged its desire to acquire 100 per cent of carrier.

Qantas Group CEO Alan Joyce said acquiring Alliance under the QantasLink brand allows the airline to be more competitive in the fierce regional aviation market.

“Alliance’s fleet of Fokker aircraft are perfect for efficiently serving resources customers in WA and Queensland,” Joyce said.

“They also have a big inventory of spare parts that would significantly extend the practical life of a combined fleet of around almost 70 Fokkers.

“Keeping these aircraft operating reliably for longer than either carrier could achieve themselves will help keep costs down, which is ultimately good news for charter customers,” he said.

“The resources sector continues to grow and any new tender for airline services will be very competitive. It makes sense for us to combine with Alliance to improve the services we can offer, which is a positive for both airlines as well as the travelling public.”

[Check_Thrust]

Bring it on, I say!

Be careful what you wish for. It might be good for the Alliance group (I don't know what it's currently like there) if it goes ahead but don't expect it to be all rainbows and unicorns.

[hotnhigh]

More like pineapples and sand.

[cloudsurfng]

Bring it on, I say!

send me your address, and I’ll forward my hat 👍🏻

[Lapon]

How likley is this to get past the ACCC anytime soon, if at all?
Didn't it take about 3 years to give the nod to just a 20% holding in AQZ?

[airdualbleedfault]

More like pineapples and sand.
Ouch :ouch:

[PoppaJo]

How likley is this to get past the ACCC anytime soon, if at all?
Didn't it take about 3 years to give the nod to just a 20% holding in AQZ?

Depends how convincing Virgin’s argument is. They put forward a strong case against the QF/Japan tie up which got rejected (and rightly so), with the regulator citing many reasons VA raised.

[pinkpanther1]

I did!! As soon as the ACCC dropped the opposition to Qantas buying us, I knew that the Irishman would make a offer ASAP. From our flight planning procedures to normal operating procedures, Qantas has been creeping in, and I guess that we will have to wear the QF uniform, just like most of the FA's already do. Bring it on, I say!
https://cdn-api.markitdigital.com/apiman-gateway/ASX/asx-research/1.0/file/2924-02518444-2A1372231?access_token=83ff96335c2d45a094df02a206a39ff4

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1493/85518_embraere190artistimpression_810110_d52817ea8362fdab52f 2ed71daa296f3746cf41b.jpeg

Careful what you wish for buddy. I hope you like base closures and forced transfers because thats exactly what will be happening once QF management start to rejig.

[Bull_Shark]

Wonder what this means for Network?

It would seem that with Alliance being so much more involved on a national scale with FIFO work, including a huge presence out west, that keeping Network and it’s old F100s and hand me down Buses is pointless?

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Don’t alliance have several EBs to negotiate too?

Or will there be one pineapple to unite them all?

[Lapon]

Depends how convincing Virgin’s argument is. They put forward a strong case against the QF/Japan tie up which got rejected (and rightly so), with the regulator citing many reasons VA raised.

I suspect the Alliance customers at the big end of FIFO town might have in interest in seeing a torpedo in this too.

[blubak]

Just what we need. Less competition.

This cannot be good for Australian aviation.

Let’s hope the accc stop this.

Yet another pilot group to play off against each other, further driving down wages…….
Isnt this exactly what he would have wanted,another group of pilots to play off against any other group that opposes him.
The word 'opportunist' comes to mind,along with a few others which would probably not be appropriate on here.

[Going Nowhere]

If it goes through, it’ll be the end of Fokker’s at Network.

They’ll focus on 320/321.

As for NJS, if they thought they had little cards to play in their EBA negotiations before, they have close to none now.

[parishiltons]

I have considerable respect for the timing and prescience demonstrated by Alliance's management. I'm guessing they think something is about to happen either in the economy or the aviation industry such that Alliance has chosen this moment as the best time to take the money and run. Remember their previous incarnation, Flight West Airlines, with some of the same names in management? Flight West chose to go into voluntary liquidation shortly before the Ansett collapse and was reincarnated/did a Phoenix as Alliance the following year. I wonder how it will play out this time around?

[Australia2]

The initial rumour mill at Alliance was it could be up to 30 E190’s.

“We’ve opened up several new passenger routes using up to 18 of Alliance’s E190s, so bringing all 33 of these aircraft, plus their crews, into the Qantas Group would really expand what we could achieve.
“We plan to extend our program of guaranteed lower fares for residents in those few communities where Alliance operates its own passenger services, as well as access to our Frequent Flyer program,” added Mr Joyce.

Maybe it wasn’t far off the mark . . . . . .

[Icarus2001]

No rumours needed. Just read the ASX releases. 16 announced and 14 announced. Thirty airframes.
If you want rumours, how about up to fifty aircraft.
I

[Alice Kiwican]

VIrgin won’t be overly excited about if considering they also use Alliance in some RPT routes

[IAW]

VIrgin won’t be overly excited about if considering they also use Alliance in some RPT routes

Maybe VARAs announced 737-700s will be the replacement for East Coast F100 ops, not just west Coast FIFO?

[AerialPerspective]

Depends how convincing Virgin’s argument is. They put forward a strong case against the QF/Japan tie up which got rejected (and rightly so), with the regulator citing many reasons VA raised.

Well, it'd have to be pretty convincing to get around the fact that VA bought SkyWest, then if I remember correctly, parked some of it's aircraft and some of the VA aircraft, then realised they didn't have enough so had to pay through the nose for Alliance to operate for them.

Couple that with the absolute debacle that was the A320/737 at TT and the stuff up with being kicked off the DPS route after repeatedly being warned it wasn't allowable to substitute another carrier, whether you owned them or not.

I think it would be hard to justify any objection after VA themselves gobbled up a FIFO carrier.

I look forward to QF showing VA how to make an E190 operate profitably.

[unobtanium]

so the qantas domestic fleet now has

e190 94 seat's
f100 100 seat's
717 110 seat's
220 137 seat's
737 174 seat's
320 180 seat's
321 200 seat's

anymore niche's to fill?

[DropYourSocks]

Welcome to the whipsaw, a common tactic US legacy airlines used for over 20 years to keep their regional partners cheap. It was literally this tactic that had regional pilots living on government assistance because they were paid so little.

The good news is, the whipsaw works both ways. If one of Qantas' subsidiaries can land a better contract, the others will rise too. But if one takes a concessionary contract, the rest come down. Good luck to all involved, you deserve a win.

[aussieflyboy]

so the qantas domestic fleet now has

e190 94 seat's
f100 100 seat's
717 110 seat's
220 137 seat's
737 174 seat's
320 180 seat's
321 200 seat's

anymore niche's to fill?

I’ve heard they’ve put in a bid for Shoal Air (KNX) and Air Frontier (DRW) so they can further expand their network and ensure QF have adequate interline pax into the future.

[neville_nobody]

Welcome to the whipsaw, a common tactic US legacy airlines used for over 20 years to keep their regional partners cheap. It was literally this tactic that had regional pilots living on government assistance because they were paid so little.

A strategy which resulted in the bankruptcy of most regional airlines, new laws passed for minimum experience levels for RPT and a subsequent pilot shortage, with airlines forced to import foreign labour and put passengers on buses. But don’t worry I’m sure those in management who arranged all that still got their bonus.

[belongamick]

I’ve heard they’ve put in a bid for Shoal Air (KNX) and Air Frontier (DRW) so they can further expand their network and ensure QF have adequate interline pax into the future.

Can't wait for the photo op with Geoff and Alan, together, dressed in their business best in the Air Frontier 'boardroom' :}​​​​​

[gordonfvckingramsay]

A strategy which resulted in the bankruptcy of most regional airlines, new laws passed for minimum experience levels for RPT and a subsequent pilot shortage, with airlines forced to import foreign labour and put passengers on buses. But don’t worry I’m sure those in management who arranged all that still got their bonus.

And let us not forget the Colgan accident. The tactic so loved by our airline management here in Oz actually contributed to the deaths of a Q400 load of people.

[DropYourSocks]

A strategy which resulted in the bankruptcy of most regional airlines, new laws passed for minimum experience levels for RPT and a subsequent pilot shortage, with airlines forced to import foreign labour and put passengers on buses. But don’t worry I’m sure those in management who arranged all that still got their bonus.

100%!! The whipsaw is an evil practice, but those who are implementing it today in Aus will have ridden off into the sunset years ahead of these consequences. Unfortunately, as is always the case, it's the pilots with broken careers left to pick up the pieces. Hopefully the US hoovers up enough Aussie pilots for the whipsaw to be to the detriment of airline management.

For perspective, the US is slated to hire in the order of 10,000 pilots every year for the next little while (how long who knows). Aussies won't make the slightest dent in the shortage here, but a loss of even 10% of the Aussie workforce would certainly liven up the domestic scene.

[stillcallozhome]

A strategy which resulted in the bankruptcy of most regional airlines, new laws passed for minimum experience levels for RPT and a subsequent pilot shortage, with airlines forced to import foreign labour and put passengers on buses. But don’t worry I’m sure those in management who arranged all that still got their bonus.

Slight difference is that in the USA, most “regionals” weren’t wholly owned - they were essentially wet leases. Most of the majors sold them off. A couple were bought back over the years but the leverage came from them being owned by independent companies fighting it out to get the flying contracts. This forced wages down.

Wasn’t it Pinnacle, when they were independently owned, that won a bid for delta flying (?) right after the pilots got a new contract and then filed for chapter 11 so they could revert to the old contract wages so they could continue the flying? Disgusting

[Mr Approach]

It is inconceivable (to me) how a competition regulator could possibly approve this acquisition.
Alliance not only provides aircraft and crews to Qantas's main competitor, it also provides competition to Qantas and Virgin on FIFO and other charter contracts, such as transporting football teams around.
Qantas, at one swoop, would have driven up costs for Virgin, mining companies and anyone else that wants to hire an aircraft bigger than a Navajo.
Did the Morrison Government really provide all that taxpayer money to Qantas during the pandemic so that Mr. Joyce could spend it all on getting rid of his competition?
Never mind the ACCC there should be an outcry from the taxpayers!

[ebt]

It is inconceivable (to me) how a competition regulator could possibly approve this acquisition.
Alliance not only provides aircraft and crews to Qantas's main competitor, it also provides competition to Qantas and Virgin on FIFO and other charter contracts, such as transporting football teams around.
Qantas, at one swoop, would have driven up costs for Virgin, mining companies and anyone else that wants to hire an aircraft bigger than a Navajo.
Did the Morrison Government really provide all that taxpayer money to Qantas during the pandemic so that Mr. Joyce could spend it all on getting rid of his competition?
Never mind the ACCC there should be an outcry from the taxpayers!
The thing is that the ACCC looked into Qantas's first strike in taking the 20% slice of Alliance for three years, and ultimately cleared it, knowing full well that Qantas bought that stake with a view to taking over Alliance. The end of that investigation gave Qantas tacit approval, and although the ACCC will drag their feet in approving the full takeover, it will more than likely pass.

In a year or so once the takeover is completed, the landscape will look very interesting, but there are alternatives to QQ out there. Cobham has been scaling up the Q400s and E-Jets in WA and is up for sale, Airnorth has added frames and must surely be looking for some sweet, sweet charter revenue. Australian Corporate Jet now has an ERJ-145 and could add more pretty cheaply, so that could take up some of the more ad hoc work.

[Jet Jockey]

Not bad for an airline that received a billion odd dollars in Gov support during covid and here we are 4 months after borders open able to spend a billion on another airline acquisition. Just proves what folks have said on here for years what a master manipulator AJ and his team really are. More like an Irish Shiester !

[parishiltons]

It is inconceivable (to me) how a competition regulator could possibly approve this acquisition.
Alliance not only provides aircraft and crews to Qantas's main competitor, it also provides competition to Qantas and Virgin on FIFO and other charter contracts, such as transporting football teams around.
Qantas, at one swoop, would have driven up costs for Virgin, mining companies and anyone else that wants to hire an aircraft bigger than a Navajo.
Did the Morrison Government really provide all that taxpayer money to Qantas during the pandemic so that Mr. Joyce could spend it all on getting rid of his competition?
Never mind the ACCC there should be an outcry from the taxpayers!
Joyce is not spending real money. The transaction is funded by issuing new Qantas shares and exchanging them for Alliance shares.

[Deano969]

Joyce is not spending real money. The transaction is funded by issuing new Qantas shares and exchanging them for Alliance shares.
I sort of get what you are saying
In reality does it cost QF $0 to buy out QQ ?
Assuming QF net worth goes up by whatever QQ is worth, they could therefore issue a bunch of new QF shares to an equivalent value to ex QQ shareholders

Nooooo this can't be right....

[parishiltons]

I sort of get what you are saying
In reality does it cost QF $0 to buy out QQ ?
Assuming QF net worth goes up by whatever QQ is worth, they could therefore issue a bunch of new QF shares to an equivalent value to ex QQ shareholders

Nooooo this can't be right....
Have a look at the Scheme of Arrangement. Qantas will issue new shares and give Alliance shareholders one new Qantas share for each of their Alliance shares, which will then be cancelled. So the dollar cost to Qantas is only the cost of their transaction advisers, lawyers etc who will make some millions out of it. How the market reacts and whether it reprices/revalues Qantas shares we will see in good time.

[Johnny Mathes]

Qantas had been approve by the ACCC and that is great move jobs

[tail wheel]

1 June 1987 - 5 May 2022. Just short of 35 years before yet another Australian airline gets 'acquired' and will ultimately disappear into the annals of Australian aviation history.

Probably inevitable........... :(

"Qantas had been approve by the ACCC and that is great move jobs"

Have you asked the employees and aircrew of the following present and past airlines whether they benefited by their employer airline being acquired by Qantas?

Qantas Freight (since 2001)
Jetconnect (since 11-Jun-2001)
Eastern Australia Airlines and Sunstate Airlines, operating under the QantasLink brand (since 2002)
Jetstar Airways (since May-2004)
Network Aviation (since Feb-2011)
Express Freighters Australia
Jetstar Asia (49%, since 2004)
Jetstar Pacific (30%, since 2007)
Jetstar Japan (33%, since 2012)
Fiji Airways (46%)
Alliance Airlines (19.9%, since 2019)
Australia Asia Airlines
Impulse Airlines
Australian Airlines
Hazelton
Kendal

And many other airlines over the decades that were acquired by Qantas?

[PoppaJo]

Qantas had been approve by the ACCC and that is great move jobs
They certainly have not.

[Bula]

Well that will keep the F100’s flying for Atleast a few years.

It truly is an impressive plan to ensure QF frequent flyers can purchase a seat on an aircraft while making a substantial profit on the standard cost of a ticket vs the cost of the frequent flyer points.

long live Qantas loyalty… the most profitable entity in the group…. How to monetise good will. Amazing

[mmm345]

By issuing new shares, QAN is essentially diluting their share holders by increasing the amount of shares outstanding, which effectively reduces share price. However, if the transaction is EPS ( earnings per share) accretive, this will be deemed positive by the market and ultimately increase share price value once the potential cost savings/ efficencies ( * reduced competition) effects are realised.

[wombat watcher]

1 June 1987 - 5 May 2022. Just short of 35 years before yet another Australian airline gets 'acquired' and will ultimately disappear into the annals of Australian aviation history.

Probably inevitable........... :(



Have you asked the employees and aircrew of the following present and past airlines whether they benefited by their employer airline being acquired by Qantas?

Qantas Freight (since 2001)
Jetconnect (since 11-Jun-2001)
Eastern Australia Airlines and Sunstate Airlines, operating under the QantasLink brand (since 2002)
Jetstar Airways (since May-2004)
Network Aviation (since Feb-2011)
Express Freighters Australia
Jetstar Asia (49%, since 2004)
Jetstar Pacific (30%, since 2007)
Jetstar Japan (33%, since 2012)
Fiji Airways (46%)
Alliance Airlines (19.9%, since 2019)
Australia Asia Airlines
Impulse Airlines
Australian Airlines
Hazelton
Kendal

And many other airlines over the decades that were acquired by Qantas?


Tailwheel,
with due respect, half the airlines you have named were not acquired by Qantas.

[Icarus2001]

Is it school holidays again?

[MickG0105]

Have a look at the Scheme of Arrangement. Qantas will issue new shares and give Alliance shareholders one new Qantas share for each of their Alliance shares, which will then be cancelled. ...
It's not exactly a straight one Qantas share for one Alliance share deal. The Scheme Consideration is $4.75 per Alliance share, less any ordinary dividends paid by Alliance between 4 May 2022 and the effective date. If the volume-weighted average price of Qantas shares is above $4.75 on the effective date, Alliance shareholders will get less than one Qantas share for each of their shares; if QAN is trading under $4.75 then Alliance shareholders get more than one Qantas share for each Alliance share.

$4.75 is the effective transaction price for each Alliance share.

[tail wheel]

Tailwheel,
with due respect, half the airlines you have named were not acquired by Qantas.

Agreed. But that are all within the Qantas "family tree", directly, indirectly or by inheritance.

[wombat watcher]

Agreed. But that are all within the Qantas "family tree", directly, indirectly or by inheritance.

OK. Weren’t Kendall and Hazeltons acquired by Ansett, were caught up in Ansett’s demise and then acquired from the Receivers by the Singaporean to form Rex?
That is why they have Saabs and not Dash 8s.
You also missed Southern Airlines and ARAQ in your list.

The only other nitpick is that I don’t think Qf Freight ever owned aircraft or employed pilots. It was a business that contracted lease aircraft, and freight space on aircraft to move its freight around the world. Still does.

[Wizofoz]

OK. Weren’t Kendall and Hazeltons acquired by Ansett, were caught up in Ansett’s demise and then acquired from the Receivers by the Singaporean to form Rex?
That is why they have Saabs and not Dash 8s.
You also missed Southern Airlines and ARAQ in your list.

The only other nitpick is that I don’t think Qf Freight ever owned aircraft or employed pilots. It was a business that contracted lease aircraft, and freight space on aircraft to move its freight around the world. Still does.

Plus Impules airlines IS Jetstar, and Australia Asia was just a paper airline operating a Qantas 747SP with Qatas crew to get around Chinese anger at recognising Taiwan.

And the employees at Australian Airlines that is now rhe domestic arm of QF mainline would be just fine with their lot, I would think.

[wombat watcher]

Plus Impules airlines IS Jetstar, and Australia Asia was just a paper airline operating a Qantas 747SP with Qatas crew to get around Chinese anger at recognising Taiwan.

And the employees at Australian Airlines that is now rhe domestic arm of QF mainline would be just fine with their lot, I would think.


Australian Asia also operated a B767-300 in their colours after the SPs were sold.

Absolutely to your second sentence.

Also the former Impulse pilots were very pleased to come off their previous employment contracts with Gerry to become full time employees. IIRC.

[Wizofoz]

Also the former Impulse pilots were very pleased to come off their previous employment contracts with Gerry to become full time employees. IIRC.

Not to mention going from being 717 pilots in an airline with a very iffy future to the most senior pilots in a Qantas backed A320/787 operation. I'm not saying this in ANY type of derogirory way, best of luck to them, but they got one of the biggest leg-ups in local history.

[Mr Proach]

If you are looking for good job security, minor legal accountability, good wages and employment conditions and don't like working under bullying or intimidatory regimes then DO NOT repeat DO NOT enter the aviation industry that is unless you like wearing a uniform to air shows.
If you seek the above, suggest you head for the rail industry.

[JoeTripodi]

Hearing rumours of Alliance trying to bring in European pilots on visas to staff the faltering E190 operation….the ink isn’t even dry….

[BO0M]

Heard the same (seen an email). Very interesting considering I personally know many pilots who have more than enough hours (but no Ejet rating) that applied 6 months ago and still havent heard anything.

One would hope the unions will step up and make noise that Alliance is importing pilots when theres many Australian pilots availble and out of work.

[WannaBeBiggles]

Heard the same (seen an email). Very interesting considering I personally know many pilots who have more than enough hours (but no Ejet rating) that applied 6 months ago and still havent heard anything.

One would hope the unions will step up and make noise that Alliance is importing pilots when theres many Australian pilots availble and out of work.

I know of type rated, Australian based pilots who have yet to get as much as an interview...

[twentyelevens]

I know of type rated, Australian based pilots who have yet to get as much as an interview...

They probably haven’t been given an interview because Alliance knows they wont work as an E-Jet FO for $76,000 a year as proposed.

[davidclarke]

They probably haven’t been given an interview because Alliance knows they wont work as an E-Jet FO for $76,000 a year as proposed.

Given the award for a ejet FO is in the vicinity of 103k, I find it had to believe that Alliance could legally offer that…..

[pinkpanther1]

Given the award for a ejet FO is in the vicinity of 103k, I find it had to believe that Alliance could legally offer that…..

Nope he's right. Just saw the email from the recruiter, 3600GBP per month for FOs. They're after 15 Captains and 15 FOs, look to be targeting Brits.

[twentyelevens]

Given the award for a ejet FO is in the vicinity of 103k, I find it had to believe that Alliance could legally offer that…..

Yeah because an aviation operator with form in underpayment and poor conditions has never tried to circumvent the award in this country.
Please, direct me to the fainting couch.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Nope he's right. Just saw the email from the recruiter, 3600GBP per month for FOs. They're after 15 Captains and 15 FOs, look to be targeting Brits.

Is there a pilot shortage here or something?

[davidclarke]

Nope he's right. Just saw the email from the recruiter, 3600GBP per month for FOs. They're after 15 Captains and 15 FOs, look to be targeting Brits.

I have also seen said email. They can offer whatever they want, however they must still abide by minimum wages set by fair work. They can try and pay less but will end up in court.

[PPRuNeUser0163]

Could one of you guys please post the job ad?

only fair if this is happening that the industry is aware.

N

[Icarus2001]

I see a few hoops to jump through and even then…

First they need some takers, to live in the NT on that salary having moved from UK.

They need visas to work in Australia, issues just there.

The salary on offer may not meet FWC requirements.

They will need either licence conversion or certificate of validation.

Once all those issues have been sorted, they are talking about 15 crews. That would be about 10% of their crew requirement.

[SHVC]

On top of that, they would have to provide proof they need them above Australians. E190 is not a new type Although I think Rex did this with SA on the SAAB few yrs back.

[aussieflyboy]

Qantas forced NJS pilots to relocate from Darwin when they closed their Darwin base (after 30 years of operation). These people were long term Territorians with homes, families and kids in school who would have stayed for the rest of their careers.

If QF can’t crew flights from Darwin it’s their own fault completely.

[pinkpanther1]

Could one of you guys please post the job ad?

only fair if this is happening that the industry is aware.

N
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x1764/screenshot_20220512_202931_instagram_6c8fd81845bd0880077a784 6e1e8e9a489d744fd.jpg

[Shoulda_beena_tradie]

The industry in this country never ceases to amaze me. Appalling that they can get away with this type of rubbish.

[-41]

The free serviced apartment, Staff travel with QF and a touring roster with 14 days off is very attractive as an Australian!

Is that in your EA!

Normally B scalers get lesser conditions, the pay works out to the modern award rate assuming they are talking take home pay circa 76KAUD.

[PPRuNeUser0163]

Dick Smith is this something that interests you to follow up?

I know you were vocal a few years ago on 457 visas coming to aus.


cheers

[twentyelevens]

The free serviced apartment, Staff travel with QF and a touring roster with 14 days off is very attractive as an Australian!

Is that in your EA!

Normally B scalers get lesser conditions, the pay works out to the modern award rate assuming they are talking take home pay circa 76KAUD.

3 assertions in the first sentence, and you’re wrong - on all 3 occasions. Have you considered a political career?

Its people like you who not only don’t think this offer is a disgrace, on a few different levels, but is something to be grateful for (i.e. You’d accept this) that see us were we are in this industry today.

I really don’t know how you live with yourself. (Unless you’re management, in which case, you’re totally used to this level of scum-baggery)

[-41]

3 assertions in the first sentence, and you’re wrong - on all 3 occasions. Have you considered a political career?

Its people like you who not only don’t think this offer is a disgrace, on a few different levels, but is something to be grateful for (i.e. You’d accept this) that see us were we are in this industry today.

I really don’t know how you live with yourself. (Unless you’re management, in which case, you’re totally used to this level of scum-baggery)

The position listing states;
Serviced apartment provided at home base
56/14 Rotation with concessional commuting flights to UK (LHR) on QANTAS

I assumed this offer is undermining those already at QQ on the 190. Personally have no idea what their agreement terms are, so yes this is an assumption on my behalf, and a mild attempt at ironic commentary given how many highly experienced redundant pilots are looking for work in Australia.

[sandpit]

And the employees at Australian Airlines that is now rhe domestic arm of QF mainline would be just fine with their lot, I would think.


I'm sure they are. However I think the employees of "QF mainline" (QF pre merger) should be the happy ones. Domestic has been far more profitable than international since the merger. I CBA to add it up but the differences in returns between domestic and international would be orders of magnitude different. If QF was still international only, given the last few years, there's a good chance it wouldn't still be here.

[neville_nobody]

Who do you pay tax to in these international FIFO arrangements? Is the housing & flights considered a fringe benefit?
Historically the ATO has usually frown upon these type of arrangements and made it difficult.

[C441]

The free serviced apartment, Staff travel with QF and a touring roster with 14 days off is very attractive as an Australian!
I wonder if it's a free serviced apartment or they'll just ensure they have one available for you to rent at their rates?
Staff travel for the international bit to and from London will be down the back as all the comfy seats are long gone by the time the upgrades get to staff with anything less than an executive level upgrade category.

[-41]

Yeah it would be one hell of a commute.

[TimmyTee]

And surely mainline QF staff won't allow them to travel on confirmed tickets to and from london ahead of staff travellers (ie WB pilots and their families)

[cynphil]

Qf staff have no say and have never had any say on who gets confirmed staff travel…..

[C441]

It's suggested on another forum that E-190 Qantas services are regularly cancelled due to a lack of crew, including some capital city pairs.
Can anyone confirm this is a daily event on some services?

[AussieAviator]

Ok, now this is all starting to get very strange!! Alliance captains get about $165K/year, Network/ QF about $195K, VARA, don't know, to fly a F100. Cobham pay about $190k to fly a BAE146 and a bit more for the E190. Alliance E190 captains apparently are paid as low as $150K and now they want to test the field for foreign pilots to fly within Australia and possibly get paid even less!! These are all 100 seat medium range airliners, so surely there is some sort of minimum pay here to fly a 100 seat jet as a Captain? Surely, if Qantas takes over the company, they will just pay everyone the same as the Network/ Qantaslink Agreement?

[Beer Baron]

Surely, if Qantas takes over the company, they will just pay everyone the same as the Network/ Qantaslink Agreement?
Ha! That may well defeat the point of buying them. When they bought Network and gave them A320’s they did not just put them on the same Qantas Short Haul agreement.

[FO NappyBum]

Highly doubt it! the industrial lawyers at QF will be licking their lips. “If alliance can do it we can as well”. Just have a look at what’s unfolding at NJS as we speak.


now this is all starting to get very strange!! Alliance captains get about $165K/year, Network/ QF about $195K, VARA, don't know, to fly a F100. Cobham pay about $190k to fly a BAE146 and a bit more for the E190. Alliance E190 captains apparently are paid as low as $150K and now they want to test the field for foreign pilots to fly within Australia and possibly get paid even less!! These are all 100 seat medium range airliners, so surely there is some sort of minimum pay here to fly a 100 seat jet as a Captain? Surely, if Qantas takes over the company, they will just pay everyone the same as the Network/ Qantaslink Agreement?[/QUOTE]

[Angle of Attack]

C441, not sure but I can tell you a lot of the E190 QF services are being cancelled all the time from BNE to multiple cities, not sure why but I constantly see cancelled or 3-4 hour delays on their flights out of BNE.

[Zinfandel]

I know I number of Australian pilots with jet time (narrow body to wide body) who have applied to QQ and have heard nothing. Some of these pilots have now taken turboprop jobs.

Then there are some like me who have substantial Ejet time from the VA days and have not heard anything from QQ.

There is no reason for QQ to bring in non-Australian pilots.

[backspace]

I know I number of Australian pilots with jet time (narrow body to wide body) who have applied to QQ and have heard nothing. Some of these pilots have now taken turboprop jobs.

Then there are some like me who have substantial Ejet time from the VA days and have not heard anything from QQ.

There is no reason for QQ to bring in non-Australian pilots.

Not sure but I don’t think the problem is suitable pilots it’s getting them to go to Darwin

[twentyelevens]

Not sure but I don’t think the problem is suitable pilots it’s getting them to go to Darwin
And to add to your post backspace, getting them to go to DRW (and to a lesser extent ADL and TSV) under the terms and conditions offered currently.
The latest offering to foreign pilots is surely to put large downwards pressure on an already abysmal contract, and the wider industry as a whole (think Qantas/NJS and A220).

[Dookie on Drums]

Also have substantial E170/190 (plus Boeing) time but have not heard a peep from Alliance and have been rejected from Cobham following an interview. Go figure! Meh! Start your own business as I have.

[BuzzBox]

Not sure but I don’t think the problem is suitable pilots it’s getting them to go to Darwin

Given they don't even bother to reply to people with thousands of hours of jet time, they really wouldn't know, would they?

There's a bunch of highly-experienced pilots in Australia looking for jobs right now, but without the type-rating the likes of Alliance and Cobham aren't remotely interested.

[TimmyTee]

Know of four seperate blokes who meet the requirements (ie all former ejet drivers) that either have never been contacted back by Alliance or got knocked back with no feedback at first stage. One is filthy after hearing about this

[PPRuNeUser0184]

Can the proposed recruitment of foreign labour be legally challenged? Or does the govt just take the word of Alliance management and sign off on the visas?

Anyone....?

[StudentInDebt]

Can the proposed recruitment of foreign labour be legally challenged? Or does the govt just take the word of Alliance management and sign off on the visas?

Anyone....?There’s no need for employer sponsored visas, NT has Aeroplane Pilot on their migration occupation list and will sponsor applicants who meet the criteria for a 491 Skilled Work Regional (Provisional) visa.

[-41]

Can the proposed recruitment of foreign labour be legally challenged? Or does the govt just take the word of Alliance management and sign off on the visas?

Anyone....?
Take a breath, I highly doubt they will be flooding the Aus pilot ranks with touring pilots from the UK.

Recall AJ's threat in 2020, when he had hundreds of pilots waiting to fly the Sunrise project.

[itchy_feet]

Given they don't even bother to reply to people with thousands of hours of jet time, they really wouldn't know, would they?

There's a bunch of highly-experienced pilots in Australia looking for jobs right now, but without the type-rating the likes of Alliance and Cobham aren't remotely interested.

Cobham has been sending new recruits on the 190 for type ratings. So whilst it’s listed as a requirement, most of the new hires don’t have the actual type rating.

[BuzzBox]

Cobham has been sending new recruits on the 190 for type ratings. So whilst it’s listed as a requirement, most of the new hires don’t have the actual type rating.

Captains or FOs? Cobham advertised for both DECs and FOs on the E190, with the type rating listed as ‘desirable’. Perhaps I’m mistaken, but my understanding is they did not consider anyone for a DEC position without a type rating. I was made redundant from an overseas airline and applied to Cobham with WAY more than the minimum requirements, but no type rating. They didn’t even have the courtesy to reply.

[aussieflyboy]

Cobham had/has a list of people from NJS that got screwed over when QF did the hostile takeover of NJS and then closed their 30+ year old Base.

These people don’t have E-Jet time but have extensive ‘cobham’ time so naturally these people will be employed first. Once those NJS people have dried up then others will get a look in. Don’t be offended if Cobham don’t call you, they’re simply looking after their own first which shows a level of respect for their staff not seen in aviation lately…

[BuzzBox]

Fair enough, but how hard is it to contact unsuccessful applicants and provide an explanation? For example, “Your application is unsuccessful at this time as we are prioritising…”. I know it’s a standard practice with a lot of employers to ignore unsuccessful applicants, but it is frankly disrespectful, especially where the applicant meets all of the ‘essential’ criteria. When Qantas advertised for A320 DECs for Network, they had the decency to respond and say they were prioritising people with type ratings, even though the rating wasn’t listed as an essential criteria.

[-41]

Afap responds.



Late last week a number of members alerted the AFAP to recruitment advertisements for foreign pilots (Direct Entry Captains and First Officers) at both Alliance on the E190 and Rex on the B737, sending us copies of the advertisements. Over the weekend we wrote to both Alliance and Rex seeking confirmation of whether these advertisements are genuine. Rex has since written back stating that the advertisement relating to Rex is “unsolicited and NOT supported by Rex”. They have also advised that the WhatsApp number referenced in the advertisement does not belong to any Rex employee.

We are yet to receive confirmation from Alliance.

At this stage we need to work on the assumption that the screen shots relating to Alliance seeking interest from E190 pilots in the UK for contract positions in Adelaide or Darwin are genuine. Accordingly, we have commenced steps to address this development and will be taking further steps this week. These include briefing politicians on both sides of politics and the media on this issue, which we appreciate is of great concern to members.

Australian pilots, particularly airline pilots, have been amongst the hardest hit employees by the pandemic. Most of us have endured significant stand downs and many have lost their jobs, such as the Tigerair pilots and Virgin ATR and wide-body pilots. Advertising for foreign pilots at this time is a betrayal of trust for all Australian pilots – the company’s existing pilots, currently unemployed experienced Australian pilots and many pilots in GA who are looking to progress their aviation career.

If true, it is particularly disappointing given that Alliance has previously proudly proclaimed how profitable they have been over the pandemic. Such conduct, especially in the current environment, cannot be ignored.

Rest assured we will be taking every possible step to ensure Australian pilot jobs are prioritised for Australian pilots.

We will keep you posted on developments.

Best regards,

Capt. Louise Pole

President

[cessnapete]

Lots of still unemployed Type Rated E170/190 pilots in UK. FlyBe went bust a year or two back, operated a large number of Q400 too.

[F.Nose]

Afap responds.



Late last week a number of members alerted the AFAP to recruitment advertisements for foreign pilots (Direct Entry Captains and First Officers) at both Alliance on the E190 and Rex on the B737, sending us copies of the advertisements. Over the weekend we wrote to both Alliance and Rex seeking confirmation of whether these advertisements are genuine. Rex has since written back stating that the advertisement relating to Rex is “unsolicited and NOT supported by Rex”. They have also advised that the WhatsApp number referenced in the advertisement does not belong to any Rex employee.

We are yet to receive confirmation from Alliance.

At this stage we need to work on the assumption that the screen shots relating to Alliance seeking interest from E190 pilots in the UK for contract positions in Adelaide or Darwin are genuine. Accordingly, we have commenced steps to address this development and will be taking further steps this week. These include briefing politicians on both sides of politics and the media on this issue, which we appreciate is of great concern to members.

Australian pilots, particularly airline pilots, have been amongst the hardest hit employees by the pandemic. Most of us have endured significant stand downs and many have lost their jobs, such as the Tigerair pilots and Virgin ATR and wide-body pilots. Advertising for foreign pilots at this time is a betrayal of trust for all Australian pilots – the company’s existing pilots, currently unemployed experienced Australian pilots and many pilots in GA who are looking to progress their aviation career.

If true, it is particularly disappointing given that Alliance has previously proudly proclaimed how profitable they have been over the pandemic. Such conduct, especially in the current environment, cannot be ignored.

Rest assured we will be taking every possible step to ensure Australian pilot jobs are prioritised for Australian pilots.

We will keep you posted on developments.

Best regards,

Capt. Louise Pole

President

Well done Louise 👏. When you present your argument don’t forget that the NT Government granted Qantas/Alliance $3.6m for the “Jet Base” in Darwin (which is as going to happen regardless) to assist with training and admin.

[Ollie Onion]

Kind of Ironic the hand wringing about this whilst another post in the forum is all about how to go to the USA to take pilot jobs……….

[neville_nobody]

Kind of Ironic the hand wringing about this whilst another post in the forum is all about how to go to the USA to take pilot jobs……….

1. USA has a real shortage of pilots.
2. Australians going to the USA are not undercutting the US market.
3. The US government would never let foreigners in if there was qualified citizens unemployed

This is just a last ditch effort by Alliance to set a legal precedent and set the lowest conditions possible until there is a implosion of the Australian pilot labour market and they start becoming price takers.

[Ollie Onion]

1. USA has a real shortage of pilots.
2. Australians going to the USA are not undercutting the US market.
3. The US government would never let foreigners in if there was qualified citizens unemployed

This is just a last ditch effort by Alliance to set a legal precedent and set the lowest conditions possible until there is a implosion of the Australian pilot labour market and they start becoming price takers.


1. Does the USA have a shortage of pilots or a shortage of appropriately qualified pilots.
2. That is debatable, if foreign pilots are not sourced what would happen to the terms and conditions of the USA pilots?
3. The Australian Government would never let foreigners in if there are qualified citizens unemployed.

The USA has a shortage of qualified pilots due to the 1500 hour requirement passed post Coglan, the real reason for the accident though was fatigue caused by excessive commuting due to insufficient pay to live at the local base, which funnily enough was looked over. The market in the USA is not dissimilar to here in OZ, lots of licenced pilots but not enough qualified and experienced pilots, if you accept that in the USA importing qualified pilots instead of upskilling their own is appropriate then surely the same can be said here. A British pilots with thousands of hours on the E190 is surely more appropriate than a local pilot with no jet time.

[BuzzBox]

A British pilots with thousands of hours on the E190 is surely more appropriate than a local pilot with no jet time.

Perhaps so, but how about a local pilot with thousands of hours on other types of jets, who could be easily trained on the E190 if the airline concerned was prepared to do so?

[grrowler]

So if the contracts go ahead, and the sale to QF goes through, in 6 months time we will have contract pilots in a Qantas airline. Cool.

[ExtraShot]

3. The Australian Government would never let foreigners in if there are qualified citizens unemployed.


Oh really?


https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2021/12/briefing-australias-skilled-migrant-shortage-is-a-sham/


“…Moreover, the top five occupations granted visas under the skilled stream in 2017-18 were:

Accountants (3505 places)
Software Engineer (3112 places)
Registered Nurses (1561 places)
Developer Programmer (1487 places)
Cook (1257 places)

According to the Department of Jobs and Small Business’ list, not one of these professions was deemed to be in shortage over the five years to 2018, whereas Software Engineer has never been in shortage in the entire 31–year history of the series.“


it continues…


”…According to the Department of Home Affairs (https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/research-and-stats/files/temp-res-skilled-rpt-summary-30062018.pdf), there were 34,450 primary visas granted in 2017-18, of which 25,620 (74%) were for professionals and managers; again where skills shortages are largely non-existent…

The failure of Australia’s skilled migration program to alleviate genuine skills shortages should not be surprising given almost any occupation is eligible for visas. Specifically (https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/what-we-do/skilled-migration-program/recent-changes):

216 occupations are eligible for the Employer Nomination Scheme visa (subclass 186)
673 occupations are eligible for the Regional Sponsored Migration Scheme (subclass 187)
212 occupations are eligible for the Skilled Independent Visa (subclass 189), the Temporary Graduate Visa (subclass 485), and the family-nominated Skilled Regional (Provisional) Visa (subclass 489)
427 occupations are eligible for the Skilled Nominated Visa (subclass 190)
504 occupations are eligible for the State or Territory nominated Skilled Regional (Provisional) Visa (subclass 489)
508 occupations are eligible for the Temporary Skill Shortage (TSS) visa (subclass 482).
31 occupations are eligible for the Horticulture Industry Labour Agreement.


The above lists have no requirement that the occupations are actually experiencing skills shortages. This means that visas can be used by employers who wish to access foreign labour for an ulterior motive, such as to lower wage costs or to avoid providing training.“


As mentioned a few posts above there a plenty of out of work, experienced pilots in Australia who may merely require an endorsement, and following that will hang around for a decent pay packet and, shock horror, perhaps commutable rosters if based in Darwin!

This is nothing more than a bottom feeding attempt at joining the rest of the Australian business community in selling out locals. If it’s not, then why not offer these UK expats the same pay an Australian would get for this work?

[tossbag]

1. The USA has a shortage of appropriately qualified pilots.

Fixed it for you.

2. That is debatable, if foreign pilots are not sourced what would happen to the terms and conditions of the USA pilots?

It's not complex, but the regional model will only take a certain level of remuneration before it implodes, some say it's not far off this, when/if this happens, what will happen? Will it be rolled into mainline with a fleet of 75 seaters? Who knows, but the jobs won't completely disappear.

3. The Australian Government would never let foreigners in if there are qualified citizens unemployed.

With the greatest of respect, bullsh!t. The government will do it's utmost to lower wages in almost every sector. All you need as a sector is a plausible story decrying the 'labour shortage.'

I seriously doubt there is an unemployed E190 pilot in the States, not unless that pilot chooses unemployment. Australia however.

[Maisk Rotum]

Just been offered to apply for the DRW base. What a joke. They didn't even say which seat, even though with 24,000 hours and 16,000 PIC on A and B brand and a history of C and T, this should be obvious to the kid who wrote the letter. This despite me saying on their application online I'll accept any base except the crocodile infested S***hole. I guess my reply will be used to further their agenda for foreign pilots. Hard hat on.

[BuzzBox]

The cynic in me says the sudden interest in Australian pilots who were previously ignored has nothing to do with their skills and experience...:rolleyes:

[Karunch]

Just been offered to apply for the DRW base. What a joke. They didn't even say which seat, even though with 24,000 hours and 16,000 PIC on A and B brand and a history of C and T, this should be obvious to the kid who wrote the letter. This despite me saying on their application online I'll accept any base except the crocodile infested S***hole. I guess my reply will be used to further their agenda for foreign pilots. Hard hat on.


Similar experience to you but it appears my application disappeared with HR girl no. 2 (of 4) when she took the computer on departure. If they offered the same terms they are offering foreign pilots (accommodation & commuting) there might be some interest from Australians. Offering lower terms to locals is the crux of the matter.

[Icarus2001]

The government will do it's utmost to lower wages in almost every sector. Do you think a newly elected Labor government would operate that way?

[t_cas]

Do you think a newly elected Labor government would operate that way?

They wouldn’t have a clue.

[Gunner747400]

They wouldn’t have a clue.

Yeah cause the LNP are fully onboard with the working class....

Tell me another joke....

[neville_nobody]

Do you think a newly elected Labor government would operate that way?


Well if Labor’s history is anything to go by I wouldn’t be relying on their support.

[TimmyTee]

Alliance truly are the chosen ones, as they were hand selected to ferry Scomos media pack around the country a few times over. Write your own cheques kinda stuff

[On eyre]

Alliance truly are the chosen ones, as they were hand selected to ferry Scomos media pack around the country a few times over. Write your own cheques kinda stuff

Really ?
And could you suggest who else would have had the capability to do the tasks.

[Bloated Stomach]

I was offered a potential contract operating for Alliance. The terms were atrocious and politely turned it down. Don’t worry guys, most Brits are not interested. They will struggle with foreigners.

[Icarus2001]

I think that is an interesting perspective. The market is moving on. The reality of living costs will impact future offerings.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

I was offered a potential contract operating for Alliance. The terms were atrocious and politely turned it down. Don’t worry guys, most Brits are not interested. They will struggle with foreigners.

If the ACCC allows this one through, you can bet your bottom dollar (pun intended) that Alliance will be hit with the same strategic imperatives so desperately sought from the other business units by Qantas. In short the deal they are on now will inevitably get much worse.

[Alice Kiwican]

Really ?
And could you suggest who else would have had the capability to do the tasks.

The guys operating the ex-Jetgo EMB145’s from Essendon ( can’t remember the operator’s name) might have been able to.

[On eyre]

The guys operating the ex-Jetgo EMB145’s from Essendon ( can’t remember the operator’s name) might have been able to.

And they probably quoted for the tasks if available.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Alliance truly are the chosen ones, as they were hand selected to ferry Scomos media pack around the country a few times over.
And have done the same for the last couple of Federal elections if I recall.

[Going Nowhere]

And have done the same for the last couple of Federal elections if I recall.

There have also been Bizjet's and KingAir's flying around under the "ENVOY" callsign of late.

[Hothighhungover]

Do these EASA ATPL holders have to complete all the CASA ATPL syllabus and then an ATPL flight test? Seems only fair as that’s the requirement going the other way.

[Australopithecus]

They may not hold EASA licences since brexit. But either way, I don’t think you can fly VH aircraft here without a CASA licence.

If those contractors have to pay the FBT on the accomodation they will be working for $4000/month net. So, one school fee and 120 instant noodles.

[Tally_Ho_Boys]

I hear EastCoast Fokker pilots are all going to call in sick. Its either next week, or the one after bloody genius move if it happens.


Tally Ho

[Icarus2001]

But either way, I don’t think you can fly VH aircraft here without a CASA licence. Pilots can fly on a C of V also.

[Sleaz]

Sick days ? I suspect a mass exodus will begin to unfold all thanks to Nige’s email making its way into the public domain.

[Colonel_Klink]

Sick days ? I suspect a mass exodus will begin to unfold all thanks to Nige’s email making its way into the public domain.

For those playing at home without the inside word on what this is - care to elaborate on the ‘vibe’ of the email?

[davidclarke]

Sick days ? I suspect a mass exodus will begin to unfold all thanks to Nige’s email making its way into the public domain.

Can somebody cut and paste said email?

[Icarus2001]

So is “Nigel’s email” the one from the recruitment agency offering positions with Alliance or an internal Alliance email that has “ made its way in to the public domain” but not here on PPRUNE?
The Townsville Refueller tells me that employment of the recruitment agency has been denied.

[Bloated Stomach]

What’s the latest with AeroProfessional in the Uk sending guys to Alliance? Is this still going ahead or have the management and Union prevented this?

[Icarus2001]

So is the departure of the long term HR manager a result of the lack of pilots? mmmmmmm

[Karunch]

So is the departure of the long term HR manager a result of the lack of pilots? mmmmmmm

It might well be the cause of the lack of pilots. Apparently she ran off with the HR laptop (again). They no longer know who's applied or been interviewed.

[ScepticalOptomist]

What’s the latest with AeroProfessional in the Uk sending guys to Alliance? Is this still going ahead or have the management and Union prevented this?

From what I’ve been told - it was all bluff and bull excrement..

[grrowler]

For what purpose? It was certainly an explored option.

Maybe they should stop looking for bigger sticks and find other ways to stem the tide of resignations.

[Icarus2001]

So word from the refueler this morning is that the Alliance CEO has "resigned".

[Lapon]

So word from the refueler this morning is that the Alliance CEO has "resigned".

That is confirmed

[Sector3]

https://cdn-api.markitdigital.com/apiman-gateway/ASX/asx-research/1.0/file/2924-02546276-2A1387285?access_token=83ff96335c2d45a094df02a206a39ff4

[1A_Please]

https://cdn-api.markitdigital.com/apiman-gateway/ASX/asx-research/1.0/file/2924-02546276-2A1387285?access_token=83ff96335c2d45a094df02a206a39ff4
Personal reasons could mean nothing or a lot!

[grrowler]

Don’t dig too deep, it may/ may not reveal some/ no/ many juicy secrets 🤫

[Icarus2001]

ASX Announcement today...https://www2.asx.com.au/markets/trade-our-cash-market/announcements.aqz

Fokker 50 fleet to be sold.

[MickG0105]

ASX Announcement today...https://www2.asx.com.au/markets/trade-our-cash-market/announcements.aqz

Fokker 50 fleet to be sold.
Hopefully whoever prepares the ASX announcements over at Rex will take note - that is what a properly written market sensitive announcement should look like.

[Saintly]

ASX Announcement today...https://www2.asx.com.au/markets/trade-our-cash-market/announcements.aqz

Fokker 50 fleet to be sold.

Thats sad. There will be no use for them anywhere in WA. I wonder if Alliance will do a special flight to say goodbye to the F50 just like VA did in February 2016 when they sold off the F50

[Icarus2001]

https://australianaviation.com.au/2022/08/alliance-to-offer-new-perks-as-overseas-airlines-poach-pilots/


When managers move between companies it is called head hunting when pilots move it is poaching. Odd that.

[brokenagain]

‘Non monetary incentives’. Like what, Friday pizza lunches?

[TimmyTee]

That still costs money.
I’m gonna guess more “atta boy!”’s coming their way

[Australopithecus]

Poaching pilots. FFS. I hope they lose everybody, and their former pilots all go on to better things. As for non monetary? Money talks, BS walks.

[TimmyTee]

I presume they aren't allowed to give anything monetary based due to qantas "wage policy"

[grrowler]

I reckon the lack of willingness to give monetary incentives well and truly pre dates any direction from QF.

[Alice Kiwican]

ASX Announcement today...https://www2.asx.com.au/markets/trade-our-cash-market/announcements.aqz

Fokker 50 fleet to be sold.


i didn’t know they still had any Fokker 50’s….

[Australia2]

G’day Saintly,
There’s one planned this Sunday in ADL; seats out of a staff lottery.
Oz2

[Australia2]

I presume they aren't allowed to give anything monetary based due to qantas "wage policy"


G’day TT,

Thats an interesting point given the current transition; who’s pulling the levers ?

I hope the rumoured EFA 2% is not a sign of things to come . . . Atlas will be happy, and Asia as a whole is yet to fire back up.

Oz2

[Jack D. Ripper]

The day of reckoning is coming for Australian aviation. The day the tide goes out. The day its ridiculous 'standards' are seen for what they are. The day that every Australian pilot sitting in the right seat of a Saab/Dash8/Bras that has been told they should be thankful that they get to sit in the right seat for 8 years, the day they realise they could be flying a B747/777 without having to sit an interview with 3 Austronaughts, a psychologist and 2 HR experts while having their answers assessed by mensa HAS COME.

Sooooo you expect a job paying $200k plus to be based on an interview for numpties?

Most businesses employing people on that level of salary would be expected to conduct a reasonable level of due diligence.

[glekichi]

Whilst due diligence is certainly required, I think the point is often the 'intellectual' interviewers do not understand aviation.
But maybe its a myth, no sarcasm, because at the end of the day most capable pilots I know have good jobs.
Personally Cathay passed me over (dodged a bullet there) for not knowing what the name of some obscure aircraft in a museum's name was, but I worked for other Asian airlines without issue and also passed Jetstar and QF assessment.

(edit for the dodged bullet comment)

[Icarus2001]

Personally Cathay passed me over (dodged a bullet there) for not knowing what the name of some obscure aircraft in a museum's name was

The truth is no airline tells an applicant why they were unsuccessful. Perhaps you believe that is why they did not select you but it probably wasn’t.

[morno]

Whilst due diligence is certainly required, I think the point is often the 'intellectual' interviewers do not understand aviation.
But maybe its a myth, no sarcasm, because at the end of the day most capable pilots I know have good jobs.
Personally Cathay passed me over (dodged a bullet there) for not knowing what the name of some obscure aircraft in a museum's name was, but I worked for other Asian airlines without issue and also passed Jetstar and QF assessment.

(edit for the dodged bullet comment)

How do you know that is why Cathay passed you over?

[WannaBeBiggles]

Sooooo you expect a job paying $200k plus to be based on an interview for numpties?


You're referring to the interview that has little if anything to do with aviation vs. the interview where you're asked relevant questions without the ego trip attached to it?


Most businesses employing people on that level of salary would be expected to conduct a reasonable level of due diligence.

Having come from another industry with those sort of salaries and also having been involved in quite a bit of recruitment in said industry I think I can speak to that;

I have never seen a position requiring a psychometric test for anything other than a graduate position where they had no industry experience to back up their application
If any employer in any other industry took the "good cop, bad cop" or adversarial approach during an interview that you hear about in aviation, they would literally go broke as they would have no applicants, or the applicants that they got are probably not the sorts of applicants which would lead to a successful enterprise.

If a company recruiting for a technical role bases their decision on mostly HR and arbitrary measures that have nothing tor little to do with the job, rather than a proper mix of tech and HR. Then you need to ask yourself; Are they wanting to find the best applicants for the job, or are they looking for individuals most malleable to how the company treats (or wants to treat) their employees?

[BO0M]

You're referring to the interview that has little if anything to do with aviation vs. the interview where you're asked relevant questions without the ego trip attached to it?



Having come from another industry with those sort of salaries and also having been involved in quite a bit of recruitment in said industry I think I can speak to that;

I have never seen a position requiring a psychometric test for anything other than a graduate position where they had no industry experience to back up their application
If any employer in any other industry took the "good cop, bad cop" or adversarial approach during an interview that you hear about in aviation, they would literally go broke as they would have no applicants, or the applicants that they got are probably not the sorts of applicants which would lead to a successful enterprise.

If a company recruiting for a technical role bases their decision on mostly HR and arbitrary measures that have nothing tor little to do with the job, rather than a proper mix of tech and HR. Then you need to ask yourself; Are they wanting to find the best applicants for the job, or are they looking for individuals most malleable to how the company treats (or wants to treat) their employees?

Possibly the most accurate comment on the interview topic in general, especially the bold.

Reality is as pilots you should be questioned on technical aspects of the job and have a sim ride to ensure you're trainable. The multiple role playing games, numerical and verbal testing before and after the interview are just HR tools with no bearing on how you do your job as a pilot.

I am confused though at how this has any bearing on a thread about Qantas buying Alliance.

[dr dre]

Reality is as pilots you should be questioned on technical aspects of the job and have a sim ride to ensure you're trainable. The multiple role playing games, numerical and verbal testing before and after the interview are just HR tools with no bearing on how you do your job as a pilot.



The technical aspect of the job is assessed by having a licence, experience and passing the sim check. It’ll become pretty obvious if you don’t have the knowledge or skills required in your initial training at the airline and you won’t get through that initial training.

However what the interviewing by HR is assessing is the things they are looking for that aren’t apparent from just holding a licence. Leadership skills, communication skills, decision making processes, how they treat others in the workplace etc

You could hold 1,000 hours on the type you’re applying for however if you’re lacking in the above qualities there’s potential trouble ahead. For instance the poster above who said they were knocked back from Cathay for not knowing the name of an obscure aircraft may show a lack of self awareness as to why their interview really didn’t go so well, they may have been faulted in other questions showing a lack of teamwork ability or the like it won’t admit to themselves they have a problem there, so invent a reason that lets them off the hook for an personal issue they refuse to acknowledge.

Back to Alliance - article from Australian Aviation (https://australianaviation.com.au/2022/08/alliance-to-offer-new-perks-as-overseas-airlines-poach-pilots/) saying Alliance will boost “non-monetary” incentives to attract and keep pilots. Any idea what that could possibly be?

[Saintly]

G’day Saintly,
There’s one planned this Sunday in ADL; seats out of a staff lottery.
Oz2

So a charter flight? How much per seat in terms of cost?

Landing anywhere or just a spin around ADL city and surrounds?

[Icarus2001]

Back to Alliance - article from Australian Aviation (https://australianaviation.com.au/2022/08/alliance-to-offer-new-perks-as-overseas-airlines-poach-pilots/) saying Alliance will boost “non-monetary” incentives to attract and keep pilots. Any idea what that could possibly be?


Good question.

More days off? Which in turn will put pressure on rostering if they are short of pilots.

More annual leave? See above.

Difficult to imagine what the incentives may be.

[BuzzBox]

For instance the poster above who said they were knocked back from Cathay for not knowing the name of an obscure aircraft may show a lack of self awareness as to why their interview really didn’t go so well, they may have been faulted in other questions showing a lack of teamwork ability or the like it won’t admit to themselves they have a problem there, so invent a reason that lets them off the hook for an personal issue they refuse to acknowledge.

Exactly. Not knowing the answer to a question is hardly likely to make or break an interview. It's far more likely there were other reasons for the result, such as "attitude" towards the questioner, or other issues. In this case, my guess is the question was about "Betsy", the DC-3 used to launch Cathay's operations in 1946, and now displayed in the Hong Kong Science Museum. It is hardly "obscure" in terms of the airline's history.

[glekichi]

Of course I don't know the exact reason and its not likely it was not knowing that one answer. It wasn't Betsy, I knew that one, so they played the 'give the guy a hard time and see how he reacts' asking about the second one in the same museum.
Perhaps I was rattled by the good cop bad cop interrogation style and answered a tech question wrong.
It could be any reason, of course.

Point was their interview style resulted in them passing me over, while I went on to have a career without issue to date, never failing a check, never needing retraining, not having any major incidents, nor causing my employer any grief at any of the airlines I've worked for since.
Its just an example of:
If a company recruiting for a technical role bases their decision on mostly HR and arbitrary measures that have nothing tor little to do with the job, rather than a proper mix of tech and HR. Then you need to ask yourself; Are they wanting to find the best applicants for the job, or are they looking for individuals most malleable to how the company treats (or wants to treat) their employees?

[BuzzBox]

Point was their interview style resulted in them passing me over, while I went on to have a career without issue to date, never failing a check, never needing retraining, not having any major incidents, nor causing my employer any grief at any of the airlines I've worked for since.

CX clearly didn’t deserve you…:rolleyes:

[glekichi]

CX clearly didn’t deserve you…:rolleyes:
Not what I said at all. No need to make it a personal attack.

[morno]

FFS, I have done interviews for a LCC and also Qantas (believe it or not), and neither of them were exactly hard or anything like what a few negative comments have been above. Some basic and relevant tech questions that anyone with good general knowledge should know, and a relaxed interview with a pilot and HR person. Even I can get through it!

If anyone can’t pass that and thinks it’s ridiculous and of Oztranaut standard, perhaps it’s best they disappear overseas.

Back to Qantas buying Alliance, it was nice to have a different airline that was independent of the two majors. It’s a shame that will be lost.

[cloudsurfng]

Has it been approved by ACCC as yet? I certainly hope it gets scuttled

[morno]

Of course

[WannaBeBiggles]

Looks like it may not go ahead
https://australianaviation.com.au/2022/08/qantas-purchase-of-alliance-in-doubt-as-accc-raises-concerns/

[PoppaJo]

Look past the spin around the industry being pushed out by certain people. ‘Expecting to be approved’ ‘Green Light’ ‘Forthcoming approval’. I’d be very surprised if it’s approved.

Virgin seems to be pulling away from many of its Alliance commitments. Competition reducing before its even approved. Alarm bells for the regulators.

[Jack D. Ripper]

It’s hard to believe Qantas didn’t expect this response.

Surely they are not that arrogant as to assume the deal would go ahead just because Alan said so?

Me thinks there must be another play going on here…..

[IAW]

It’s hard to believe Qantas didn’t expect this response.

Surely they are not that arrogant as to assume the deal would go ahead just because Alan said so?

Me thinks there must be another play going on here…..

Was Alliance used as a threat for the A220 flying to secure a cheaper agreement from NJS?

[Lapon]

Was Alliance used as a threat for the A220 flying to secure a cheaper agreement from NJS?

No. Apparently it was between SH Qantas and NJS but NJS were always going to get the 220 as the 717 replacement because despite the fear mongering, why not?
The Alliance takeover (full) is only a more recent development.

[cloudsurfng]

NJS we’re always getting the initial 220’s, enough to replace the 717. Further 220’s will likely be played off between groups again. 220’s have been discussed for mainline in the future

[Going Nowhere]

Any chance QF would rejig their bid and just go after Bravo Airlines?

Leaves the FIFO competition as it is and QF pick up another cut price jet operation.

[Australia2]

GN,

that makes a WHOLE LOT of sense to me . . . . watch this space.

Oz2

[HappyBandit]

Any chance QF would rejig their bid and just go after Bravo Airlines?

Leaves the FIFO competition as it is and QF pick up another cut price jet operation.
I may have been hiding under a rock, but why would QF go after a Spanish airline?

[ebt]

I can't see them just buying Bravo. The core FIFO op is a goldmine of solid, guaranteed revenues, a Fokker fleet of scale (with the path towards replacing them with E190s), plus buying a much larger range of contracts, fleet and bases that Network couldn't replicate on its own. It's not just about access to another cheap set of drivers for the RPT operation.

Might be interesting to see if Qantas try to allay the ACCC's concerns by offering cheap E190 leases or sales to Cobham/Rex and Airnorth to allow them to scale up and bid for more FIFO contracts. Only issue is that Rio have just gone through a major procurement of their air services, so there isn't immediate opportunity for those guys to pick up a big chunk of work from the top end of town.

[1A_Please]

I can't see them just buying Bravo. The core FIFO op is a goldmine of solid, guaranteed revenues, a Fokker fleet of scale (with the path towards replacing them with E190s), plus buying a much larger range of contracts, fleet and bases that Network couldn't replicate on its own. It's not just about access to another cheap set of drivers for the RPT operation.

Might be interesting to see if Qantas try to allay the ACCC's concerns by offering cheap E190 leases or sales to Cobham/Rex and Airnorth to allow them to scale up and bid for more FIFO contracts. Only issue is that Rio have just gone through a major procurement of their air services, so there isn't immediate opportunity for those guys to pick up a big chunk of work from the top end of town.
I doubt that would cut the mustard. It is very hard to see how QF can restructure the deal to overcome the existing concerns. There is no way the government/ACCC want to wave through a deal that results in a single player have 75% of the market.
The market currently has Alliance's share price around $1.30 under Qantas' offer price which suggests the market has decided it won't happen. There is no way the market would walk away from such an obvious arbitrage if it thought there was any chance of it happening.

[grrowler]

What is Bravo anyway? What assets do they have?

[Gunner747400]

What is Bravo anyway? What assets do they have?

Bravo is all the E190's innit?

[grrowler]

I don’t think they own them? Or an AOC? Aren’t they just a bunch of pilot contracts featuring non-monetary incentives?

[neville_nobody]

Even if the ACCC allows this the big miners won't. They will start their own airline if need be. They hate supplier monopolies whether be unions or businesses noone gets to have one.
So if QF do get this through just watch for a new charter business start up in BNE or PER and suddenly pick up a few lucrative contracts out of nowhere.

[Icarus2001]

They hate supplier monopolies Where is the monopoly?

There are the Qantas owned companies. There is VA and VARA. There is REX and the NJE FIFO/Freight unit.

Three companies, made up of different business units.

[aussieflyboy]

Has the AFAP or TWU made a submission to the ACCC regarding this hostile takeover?

I can see very little benefit to the overall pilot community if yet another pilot group is controlled by Qantas. Imagine getting sacked from a QF group company. Without Alliance as an independent company it would make finding future employment in Australia that much more difficult. It would make moving to other entities (including mainline) significantly more difficult as well.

[MickG0105]

Has the AFAP or TWU made a submission to the ACCC regarding this hostile takeover?

Qantas's proposed acquisition of Alliance is most assuredly not a 'hostile takeover'. The Scheme of Implementation Deed that would give effect to the acquisition was approved by the Alliance board.

[dr dre]

I can see very little benefit to the overall pilot community if yet another pilot group is controlled by Qantas. Imagine getting sacked from a QF group company. Without Alliance as an independent company it would make finding future employment in Australia that much more difficult. It would make moving to other entities (including mainline) significantly more difficult as well.So someone who gets sacked from one airline in the group (with good cause I’d take it), which denies them employment in the rest of the group. But then they’ll just waltz over to Alliance or VA or another carrier and expect them to hire them without that airline conducting the most basic reference check? Or will they tell their new employer the truth why they were terminated and expect them to not see it as an issue?

[neville_nobody]

There are the Qantas owned companies. There is VA and VARA. There is REX and the NJE FIFO/Freight unit.


What percentage of the market will be owned by QF though and what sort of market power will they have? Sure it’s technically not a monopoly but I reckon none of the big miners will be a fan. They want maximum competition in their supply chain.

[Paragraph377]

Sorry, the link is behind a paywall and I’m not going to take out a subscription to a two-bit regional rag, but apparently Townsville’s bogan Mayor, Jenny Hill, aka ‘The Mullet’, reckons such a deal will be devastating to the regions. It’s not the first time she has poked the Roo in the eye. She has either a big set or nuts or she is brain damaged. Love Qantas or hate them, if you piss them off enough, you will feel the brunt of them. My money is on her being a complete moron.

https://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/business/townsville-business/mayor-jenny-hill-says-qantas-takeover-of-alliance-would-be-disaster/news-story/900f6b2eb0a3dd50c53103428f94db7b?amp&nk=52337da8b6bccfdee7f7e7cc7e69630a-1662031385

[aussieflyboy]

Sorry, the link is behind a paywall and I’m not going to take out a subscription to a two-bit regional rag, but apparently Townsville’s bogan Mayor, Jenny Hill, aka ‘The Mullet’, reckons such a deal will be devastating to the regions. It’s not the first time she has poked the Roo in the eye. She has either a big set or nuts or she is brain damaged. Love Qantas or hate them, if you piss them off enough, you will feel the brunt of them. My money is on her being a complete moron.

https://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/business/townsville-business/mayor-jenny-hill-says-qantas-takeover-of-alliance-would-be-disaster/news-story/900f6b2eb0a3dd50c53103428f94db7b?amp&nk=52337da8b6bccfdee7f7e7cc7e69630a-1662031385

The only Pilot group wanting this takeover to happen are the alliance Pilots. The improvements to staff travel makes people blind to the reality.

[CaptainInsaneO]

Staff travel isn't as great as outsiders think it is. If the airline paid us an extra $x I'd happily give it up.

What x is depends on your staff travel experience. Ruin a few family holidays and x becomes pretty low.

Ask the NJS crew what their welcome to Qxxxxx experience was like..

[FKNFKRFKD]

The only Pilot group wanting this takeover to happen are the alliance Pilots. The improvements to staff travel makes people blind to the reality.

Not at all correct!

[Icarus2001]

I always ask my friends and colleagues how many times a year they avail themselves of staff travel, the answer is always a very low number.

[kingRB]

The only Pilot group wanting this takeover to happen are the alliance Pilots. The improvements to staff travel makes people blind to the reality.


you couldn't be more incorrect. I know a lot of crew there and none of them want anything to do with Qantas

[allgosharipova]

The only Pilot group wanting this takeover to happen are the alliance Pilots. The improvements to staff travel makes people blind to the reality.

NO thanks ! I can see the reality, thats why I am here for lifestyle and stability not glamour.

Give me the old Fokker's long term stable resources contracts, over white Caps, rainbow propaganda, frustrating staff travel and wage freezes.

[aussieflyboy]

The TWU has penned a submission to the ACCC expressing its grave concerns on the acquisition. Does anyone know if the AFAP has done the same?

[Colonel_Klink]

The TWU has penned a submission to the ACCC expressing its grave concerns on the acquisition. Does anyone know if the AFAP has done the same?

Out of interest - what grave concerns did the TWU express?

I can’t see the QF acquisition of Alliance changing the aviation dynamic much in this country.

Alliance’s terms and conditions are nothing to cry home about and essentially QF would just use Alliance to play off other work groups just as they are doing with Network / NJS / Qlink etc. Whilst that sort of IR strategy is deplorable, QF acquiring QQ is hardly going to change it all that much.

I see Rex have written a submission to the ACCC in support of the QF acquisition.

And from a Virgin pilots perspective, maybe this outcome wouldn’t be too bad as it may force VA to look at accelerating options to bring back in house some of the outsourced flying (which from recent announcements looks to be increasing over the next 12 months anyway).

[neville_nobody]

Well it certainly kills the pilot labour market. No wonder Rex are keen on removing any serious competition on that front.

[CaptainEmad]

Rex are ok with QF buying QQ aren’t they? So what’s the latest on the purchase or not?

[PoppaJo]

They will announce the final decision on the 17th November.

I wonder what the hidden agenda is over at Rex land for throwing support behind this deal. Seems like they don’t want to upset QQ. I assume Alliance gives NJE engineering and spare parts support. Gotta keep that line open I guess.

[TBM-Legend]

Rex out in the leasing market looking for 10 more B737’s

[IAW]

They will announce the final decision on the 17th November.

I wonder what the hidden agenda is over at Rex land for throwing support behind this deal. Seems like they don’t want to upset QQ. I assume Alliance gives NJE engineering and spare parts support. Gotta keep that line open I guess.

ACCC decision was pushed back to 1/Dec/2022.

https://www.accc.gov.au/public-registers/mergers-registers/public-informal-merger-reviews/qantas%E2%80%99-proposed-acquisition-of-alliance-airlines

[FKNFKRFKD]

They will announce the final decision on the 17th November.

I wonder what the hidden agenda is over at Rex land for throwing support behind this deal. Seems like they don’t want to upset QQ. I assume Alliance gives NJE engineering and spare parts support. Gotta keep that line open I guess.

QF Buys QQ they stop doing VA work then REX is hoping to fill the Void, my guess!!

[43Inches]

QF Buys QQ they stop doing VA work then REX is hoping to fill the Void, my guess!!


I was going to add similar, never think the competition is doing you a favor by supporting you. There's always an angle that will benefit them somehow.

[Mr_App]

Rex will do what works for Rex, not what works for the entire market, or what is in the best interest of consumers. They seem to take the same approach with its employees also.

[itchy_feet]

They will announce the final decision on the 17th November.

I wonder what the hidden agenda is over at Rex land for throwing support behind this deal. Seems like they don’t want to upset QQ. I assume Alliance gives NJE engineering and spare parts support. Gotta keep that line open I guess.

NJE have their own engineering and spare parts arrangement for the E190. Have done so since day one I believe.

REX are ok with the QF/QQ tie up provided access to the the E190/Q400 simulator remains available for NJE and are supposedly in discussions to have a second E190 or Q400 sim located at their own sim centre in SYD along side the Saab and 737 sims in stead of BNE or MEL.

There are other reasons as well but that was one of the main ones that I recall from The recent town hall with Rex/NJE management.

[meatbomb01]

Delayed again until March. What’s the holdup?

https://www.accc.gov.au/public-registers/mergers-registers/public-informal-merger-reviews/qantas’-proposed-acquisition-of-alliance-airlines

[PoppaJo]

Delayed again until March. What’s the holdup?

https://www.accc.gov.au/public-registers/mergers-registers/public-informal-merger-reviews/qantas’-proposed-acquisition-of-alliance-airlines
Likely intrigued by Rex and it’s late supportive submission (cough cough hidden agenda) vs everyone else who was not supportive.

[Icarus2001]

If the steady stream of pilots leaving Alliance, from both fleets, is not stemmed they will have problems meeting contract obligations.

[grrowler]

I think they were hoping to mask that issue (along with others) and hand ball it on to QF. The longer the decision drags on the more difficult it’s becoming to maintain the coat of polish.

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Are they still running the E-Jets Adelaide to Hobart?

[PoppaJo]

Are they still running the E-Jets Adelaide to Hobart?
Seasonal only. Jetstar is now all year round. I understand both will run over the holiday period.

[FKNFKRFKD]

If the steady stream of pilots leaving Alliance, from both fleets, is not stemmed they will have problems meeting contract obligations.

I believe the Fokker guys in Brisbane have just realised what sort of bad position they are in! Good luck guys.

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Thanks, PoppaJo.

[pinkpanther1]

I believe the Fokker guys in Brisbane have just realised what sort of bad position they are in! Good luck guys.

Care to elaborate?

[Skippy69]

Let people keep leaving all the carriers- mainly Network, Alliance, Cobham etc for the States or Virgin and Qantas, it'll have to drive up salaries and conditions for those that are still there surely? Not to say they're bad, but there is always room for improvement?

[ShandywithSugar]

So if this goes through is it little wonder Mainline drivers aren't so warm and fuzzy to other subsidiaries in the coffee shops around the country

Subsidiaries (excluding JQ)
F100 54
A220 29
A320 24
E190 63

Mainline
A321XLR 20

:mad:

[TBM-Legend]

So if this goes through is it little wonder Mainline drivers aren't so warm and fuzzy to other subsidiaries in the coffee shops around the country

Subsidiaries (excluding JQ)
F100 54
A220 29
A320 24
E190 63

Mainline
A321XLR 20

:mad:

how juvenile!

all require pilots and F/A’s. Try being happy instead of being interested in yourself

[ExtraShot]

Try being happy instead of being interested in yourself

Are those two things mutually exclusive? I don’t think so.

I can’t say I’ve seen too many mainline crew being less than at least polite and cordial to others in coffee shops… I’m not saying the opposite hasn’t happened on occasion, however.

In any case the number of aircraft mentioned above (most of which will be doing QF group flying) shows that there has been, and will continue to be, fairly enormous growth outside of, and to a large extent at the expense of, both Mainline contracts. Growth that in the not so distant past would probably have, at least partially, gone to expanding Mainline.

Mainline crews sit by and watch, as announcement after announcement of ‘new’ acquisitions of 20-30 year old aircraft happen while they see promotional prospects blow out by (even more) years. Their aircraft are retired with no, or fewer replacements.

So it’s completely understandable why some who are interested in themselves and their career prospects may not be that ‘happy’ about it, and not should they have to be.

[sid-star]

Are those two things mutually exclusive? I don’t think so.

I can’t say I’ve seen too many mainline crew being less than at least polite and cordial to others in coffee shops… I’m not saying the opposite hasn’t happened on occasion, however.

In any case the number of aircraft mentioned above (most of which will be doing QF group flying) shows that there has been, and will continue to be, fairly enormous growth outside of, and to a large extent at the expense of, both Mainline contracts. Growth that in the not so distant past would probably have, at least partially, gone to expanding Mainline.

Mainline crews sit by and watch, as announcement after announcement of ‘new’ acquisitions of 20-30 year old aircraft happen while they see promotional prospects blow out by (even more) years. Their aircraft are retired with no, or fewer replacements.

So it’s completely understandable why some who are interested in themselves and their career prospects may not be that ‘happy’ about it, and not should they have to be.
Yep, there’s two sides to every story. It’s ironic when there’s such a shortage of experienced pilots that those individuals in their ivory towers cannot see the wheat from the chaff.
The professions T&C’s have been eroded during Covid, but it’s time for those smart Harvard business school alumni to look a little further ahead - hopefully beyond their KPI end of year bonuses.

[soseg]

how juvenile!

all require pilots and F/A’s. Try being happy instead of being interested in yourself

Go back to your office you desk jockey

[PoppaJo]

So they require another 200-300 pilots in the next 2 years to cater for this fleet upgrade. Considering the crewing challenges, and retention challenges they are having now, how is that even achievable?

Same thing happened with the ground handling. Give Swissport the contract, who in return have no staff and no ability to even come close to servicing the contract to some form of bare minimum, and naturally it just falls apart soon after.

[CaptainInsaneO]

Yes, interesting to watch all these 'new' aircraft purchases used to expand Qantas group domestic flying, but mainline are only getting a small piece of the pie. The subsidiaries attract many new pilots as they are lead to believe it's their pathway to mainline, but will things change when they realise mainline domestic expansion is a thing of the past? Will the current 25 years to captain at mainline extend to 30 or 35 years? Will that reduce the number of pilots attracted to use the subsidiaries as a stepping stone? I think so

[aussieflyboy]

Rumour is they’re repainting the 380s with QantasLink branding and renaming the company.

[AerialPerspective]

Rumour is they’re repainting the 380s with QantasLink branding and renaming the company.

Nah, they'd just use a decal with the word Link. It's cheaper.

[Zinfandel]

Majority of these aircraft will be reduced to spares to support the other E190’s.

[Jack D. Ripper]

Yes, interesting to watch all these 'new' aircraft purchases used to expand Qantas group domestic flying, but mainline are only getting a small piece of the pie. The subsidiaries attract many new pilots as they are lead to believe it's their pathway to mainline, but will things change when they realise mainline domestic expansion is a thing of the past? Will the current 25 years to captain at mainline extend to 30 or 35 years? Will that reduce the number of pilots attracted to use the subsidiaries as a stepping stone? I think so

maybe mainline pilots are starting to get it.

the pincer manoeuvre that began with NJS undercutting Ansett pilots in the 1990’s has spread to infect mainline careers.

Now that King David is abdicating, Judas will struggle under a new king.

Meanwhile, the dark pervasive influence of the dynamic duo will endure,

But so long as the untouchables on the seniority list maintain their luxury and the cash band plays the titanic floats on

[Capn Bloggs]

NJS undercutting Ansett pilots in the 1990’s has spread to infect mainline careers.
​​​​​​​Rubbish.

[LostWanderer]

Majority of these aircraft will be reduced to spares to support the other E190’s.

If they can squeeze a contract out of them, which I bet you they will, you better believe they will be airborne and flying for Q or someone.

[dr dre]

The subsidiaries attract many new pilots as they are lead to believe it's their pathway to mainline, but will things change when they realise mainline domestic expansion is a thing of the past?

Right now subsidaries are a pathway to other carriers, couple thousand hours command and then off to a more lucrative overseas job (couple thousand Airbus command and could be straight into LHS in ME on an A350 or A380).

A lot of contracts require time on jets above 50t MTOW. The MTOW of the E190? 51.8t........

[RealSatoshi]

So if this goes through is it little wonder Mainline drivers aren't so warm and fuzzy to other subsidiaries in the coffee shops around the country

Subsidiaries (excluding JQ)
F100 54
A220 29
A320 24
E190 63

Mainline
A321XLR 20

:mad:
It's like the US but without the Scope Clause protections = Disaster from the top down (read Mainline to second last group). The last group become the newest scapegoats - who will be called names by those higher up - until over time, yet another group with even lower barriers to entry (read $'s) get sucked in...and so the cycle continues.

Good Luck!

[MBA747]

There are a number of ex Alliance pilots who spent many years in the company and with significant command time on F100 and Airbus who have returned to Oz with no intention of returning overseas even though they are well placed to join large carriers. Although these pilots have applied to Alliance they have not been contacted. So they can't be a shortage.

[ShandywithSugar]

how juvenile!

all require pilots and F/A’s. Try being happy instead of being interested in yourself

Yawn TBM ... I'm very happy thank you for the concern. Not point rehashing what others after my post have already said so well. If you can't see it then thats puerile.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Are Alliance Ejet pilots still on personal contracts? No EBA? Sounds a bit like Work-choices.

[717tech]

Are Alliance Ejet pilots still on personal contracts? No EBA? Sounds a bit like Work-choices.
I thought they were under another EBA? Bravo?

[Chocks Away]

Yes 717Tech, it's an agreement under the shelf company named "Bravo" but still below the award.

They've just purchased another 30 E190 (100ARs) from JetBlue drip-feeding through from September 2023 to 2026.

[RealSatoshi]

Yes 717Tech, it's an agreement under the shelf company named "Bravo" but still below the award.
That right there is the recipe that buys the cheese :\

By 2026, if not earlier, Network will be a single fleet (A320) operation with all F100 work moved across to the Alliance (QantasLink) E190's - let's see how this one matures...

[tiger-palm]

That right there is the recipe that buys the cheese :\

By 2026, if not earlier, Network will be a single fleet (A320) operation with all F100 work moved across to the Alliance (QantasLink) E190's - let's see how this one matures...
Crystal ball gazing or insider knowledge

[RealSatoshi]

Crystal ball gazing or insider knowledge
Nah, just a rumour network prediction from my Crystal Ball.

Btw, my Crystal Ball is now for sale, only $50...but I can see you will haggle me down to $35 :ok:

[HappyBandit]

That right there is the recipe that buys the cheese :\

By 2026, if not earlier, Network will be a single fleet (A320) operation with all F100 work moved across to the Alliance (QantasLink) E190's - let's see how this one matures...

This rumour has been floating around for years. Heck I think I may have hypothesised this to crews myself. I still think there is a chance it could happen though.

It'll be interesting to see what the ruling from ACCC is. Very odd that they've delayed the ruling too. Who says yay and who says nay?

[Going Nowhere]

That right there is the recipe that buys the cheese :\

By 2026, if not earlier, Network will be a single fleet (A320) operation with all F100 work moved across to the Alliance (QantasLink) E190's - let's see how this one matures...

Could also be the reason to start bringing in the A319’s. Not sure if they perform better than the A320’s but it could all be part of the “right plane, right root” crap they keep peddling out.

[PoppaJo]

You will find the specific mining work/contracts will need to be Network operated, not operated by Alliance for network. I understand some contracts do specify that QF and VA mainline are able to conduct some of the mining work alongside its subsidiary, if required, generally in the form of a 737NG.

The ACCC clearly delayed the decision as Rex put in a late submission, endorsing the deal, while everyone else had lengthy submissions against it. No doubt that intrigued the commission. Rex will be doing what works for itself, so clearly that supportive submission works for itself, who cares about Qantas. I expect nothing less from them.

[Chocks Away]

RealSatoshi - $50... ? Surely you must be joking. I drive a hard bargain and can only offer you $80! :8

Townsville Refueler tells me a lazy 10 of the Sampa-Vans are to be parked in Perth by years end... :ok:

Happy Landings.

[Icarus2001]

For those of us not hip and down with lingo, what is a Sampa Van?

[HappyBandit]

For those of us not hip and down with lingo, what is a Sampa Van?

Isn't Sampa a Zambian rapper?

[Chocks Away]

Sampa is a nickname for São Paulo, which is the head office of Embraer.

[volare_737]

Would anybody know if there is some Alliance 190's based in Perth ??? Or is it only Fokkers ???

[itchy_feet]

Would anybody know if there is some Alliance 190's based in Perth ??? Or is it only Fokkers ???

There aren’t any based in Perth, and from what I’ve heard won’t be for a while. Believe some F100’s have been moved from East Coast to Perth.

That could change with the recent increase in E190’s for the QF flying.