Brexit the Enabler? Forgive my ignorance ..

[A320LGW]

Genuine question to those pilots who voted for Brexit. Do you feel in any way advantaged by it?

Personally I have been unemployed since C19. Yes C19 was the cause for losing my job, but had my UK passport been an EU passport I am sure beyond any reasonable doubt I would have resecured employment since. i have been auto rejected now from the running for 7 positions, 2 of which I literally had a shoe in the door until they seemed to cop my passport was not EU. Of the few UK carriers who have opened recruitment i have not even had a reply to my CV from them.

Amongst all this I do recall many pilots valiantly declaring Brexit to be the best thing that could possibly happen to British pilots. Forgive me for being so silly, but I'd be grateful if you could point out what benefits we are reaping from excluding ourselves from the continent's job market? Thank you

[excrab]

We’ve regained our sovereignty of course, so soaring inflation, shortage of skilled labour, loss of the right to travel or work in Europe, overcrowded food banks, huge queues at channel ports, shortage of truck drivers and of course pilot unemployment is irrelevant, obviously.

[excrab]

And the NHS crumbling at it’s knees, of course…

[thetimesreader84]

We have regained our sovereignty, you're correct. Which means for the first time In what, 30 years? Our elected masters can't shrug their shoulders and say "well, we'd love to do something, but the EU are stopping us, innit?"

Don't let them forget it.

[Kennytheking]

Let’s not forget the fact that you need 2 licenses to be competitive. But thank god you have control of your borders - if that’s what you call the current chaos.

[Giuff]

I am european from Italy, and i worked for 3 years in a company back in the UK.
Best 3 years of my pilot life i have to say.
Most of the senior colleagues were brexiteers, while the young ones were remainers.
Well, you know how the story went.
Now, sadly, both the senior (but not so to retire) and the young ones are still unemployed as far as i know.
That was a nonsense at all.
And now i can get an UK CAA license back too.

I hope someone will fix this mess, one day.

[NACUD]

Even JRM is now saying that Brexit was a mistake.

[AIMINGHIGH123]

Yes indeed it’s been a massive mistake.

For pilots it’s been brutal. I now have EASA and have a parent who was born in EU land so am in the process of getting dual citizenship.

I count myself very lucky. For those without this opportunity options are out there but yes it limits you in an already very competitive market.

Sad to say I honestly hope the whole UK system now crumbles. I still have a Brexiteer friend who just denies everything blaming COVID on the whole lot.

[YosserHughes]

In the same boat, not at all helped by the pathetic stance of the UK government.
We now have British and European airlines, operating from UK airports and only hiring crew with EASA licences, the CAA have made the EASA to UK fairly straightforward, unfortunately the opposite can not be said.

It is my hope that when the 2 year grace period comes to an end there will be a shortage of experienced UK licensed crew however this is a hope and Im not sure how realistic it is, time will tell.

I honestly can't think of another group of workers that have been hit quite as hard as pilots and engineers over the last couple of years, add into this the continuous degradation of T&C's and all in all its a depressing state off affairs.

One can only hope that the sausage factories of Oxford and CTC are seeing a real reduction in guys and girls willing to risk 120k+ on this 'career', I think only when the feed of cadets dries up will the guys who have the experience be in with a chance of getting back to some form of decent renumeration, until then we're pretty much foo bar'd.

[Snr]

Sad to say I honestly hope the whole UK system now crumbles.

I have to say, that's disappointing to hear. I am a remainer, with no chance of dual citizenship, who lost their job at the start of the pandemic. For the past two years Brexit cost me multiple gigs as a ferry pilot as I was only able to get contracts to fly G-reg aircraft. It cost me the chance to apply for the rare EASA airline job that has appeared since, and reduces my bargaining power going forward (instead of having 100+ airlines I could work for, it's now less than 10).

However Brexit has happened, and wishing the system to crumble will only harm me and my colleagues further. I wish the vote had gone the other way, but it didn't, and now I have to hope that I was wrong and this leaves us in a stronger position going forward. To want to be right will only be cutting my nose off to spite my face.

[CASBO]

Thinking forward to how this plays out:

Once CAA pulls the rug on easy EASA to UK transfers at the end of the year, even if EU pilots can technically work in the UK were pilot to be added to the shortage occupation list, they would still need to surmount the bureaucratic obstacles raised by one of the least pilot friendly authorities.

If this leads to UK pilots commanding better terms and thus becoming more costly than on the continent, then operations will be offshored to EU bases or subsidiaries, eg Iberia Express not BA, or ACMI.

So my hunch is, some medium term rebalancing, but outlook fundamentally unchanged. The only winners are the faceless CAA bureaucrats.

[heavydane]

Ok as a EU national having been unemployed since Covid in April 19 my recommendation is to find something else than Brexit to blame. We have all been hit extremely hard. Actually its my believe that the demise of the professional pilots in Europe is because of EU, not Brexit. Look at lorry drivers, construction workers etc. conditions all driven down by EU and new member states desire to get rid of organized labor. Of course UK pilots should be able to work in EU and vise versa, right now You are being punished by the bikers in Brussels because they are terrified of who will try to leave next.

[nomilk]

Of course UK pilots should be able to work in EU and vise versa, right now You are being punished by the bikers in Brussels because they are terrified of who will try to leave next.You must have missed the bit where the EU offered EASA membership, acknowledgment of professional qualifications etc. and the UK said NO.

[HOVIS]

Working conditions for EU lorry drivers are a hell of a lot better than UK drivers.

[FlyingStone]

Actually its my believe that the demise of the professional pilots in Europe is because of EU, not Brexit. Look at lorry drivers, construction workers etc. conditions all driven down by EU and new member states desire to get rid of organized labor.

Funny how most EU member states, including new members, have better labour laws than UK.

Turns out if you vote for billionaires, they don't like to see working people gain any more power, quite the opposite. Who knew?

Of course UK pilots should be able to work in EU and vise versa, right now You are being punished by the bikers in Brussels because they are terrified of who will try to leave next.

But Eastern Europeans should stay away from the UK, right? Wasn't that the whole point of Brexit? British people retaining all the rights, while get rid of those pesky Poles, Romanians, etc.

[HOVIS]

... and Ukrainians... (cough, splutter.... 🙄 )

[A320LGW]

Ok as a EU national having been unemployed since Covid in April 19 my recommendation is to find something else than Brexit to blame. We have all been hit extremely hard. Actually its my believe that the demise of the professional pilots in Europe is because of EU, not Brexit. Look at lorry drivers, construction workers etc. conditions all driven down by EU and new member states desire to get rid of organized labor. Of course UK pilots should be able to work in EU and vise versa, right now You are being punished by the bikers in Brussels because they are terrified of who will try to leave next.

When a pilot is on the cusp of a job offer and then has it pulled away due not having an EU passport, how on earth is anything else but Brexit to blame? When all British pilots (bar those of dual nationality) are suddenly denied access to one of the largest job markets in the world right on their doorstep, because the British government decided so, how is the EU to blame? This deflection sounds like exactly the type of speech that got us into this mess in the first place.

[Bergerie1]

A320LGW, You are absolutely right, it was blindingly obvious to all those of us who had worked on European aviation issues. The Tory ideological doctrine killed any involvement with EASA with the predictable results we see today. Why, I ask, did so many intelligent colleagues vote for Brexit?

[roll_over]

Hopefully salaries will go up in the UK because the market is more restricted. The EU just serves companies and governments in reducing salaries and working conditions in Western Europe.

[CASBO]

Hopefully salaries will go up in the UK because the market is more restricted. The EU just serves companies and governments in reducing salaries and working conditions in Western Europe.

What do you think the second order effect of UK pilots becoming more expensive will be?

[SpamCanDriver]

I'm sorry that you missed out on some jobs

Wether its a good or a bad thing will depend on your personal goals/situation.
If you want to live & work in the EU, its obviously a very bad thing.
If you want to live and work in the UK, personally I think it will be a good thing. I've already been advantaged applying for jobs back in the UK, that highly skilled EU colleagues were interested in and couldn't.
​We weren't always eligible for jobs in the EU due to language requirements, whereas obviously all pilots speak English. That did skew the opportunities a little

Swings & Roundabouts

*Takes cover*

[A320LGW]

I'm sorry that you missed out on some jobs

Wether its a good or a bad thing will depend on your personal goals/situation.
If you want to live & work in the EU, its obviously a very bad thing.
If you want to live and work in the UK, personally I think it will be a good thing. I've already been advantaged applying for jobs back in the UK, that highly skilled EU colleagues were interested in and couldn't.
​We weren't always eligible for jobs in the EU due to language requirements, whereas obviously all pilots speak English. That did skew the opportunities a little

Swings & Roundabouts

*Takes cover*

How many actual jobs in the UK can you count right now? Cos I'm having a very hard time even trying to use up the fingers on one hand. The language thing in Europe was a thing, but only really for national carriers or their associated subsidiaries. There is a whole world of other operations that had no such language requirements. And who said none of us can speak any other language so let's just shut the door? I happen to speak French and I think you'll find other pilots do quite well with other languages too.

Do you really think there are enough UK jobs for the amount of British pilots? There is a major disconnect in the amount of jobs v pilots. Yes it's the case in Europe too, but time showed British pilots did very well in securing jobs in Europe with many airlines, all those opportunities now gone. I am rated on a type which only has 2 active UK operators, the vast majority of them are in Europe. Perhaps I'm receiving the brunt of it. I've no idea what UK opportunities exist for anyone coming out of flight school at present or in the near future.

[nomilk]

Hopefully salaries will go up in the UK because the market is more restricted. The EU just serves companies and governments in reducing salaries and working conditions in Western Europe.How do governments benefit from reduced salaries? Do governments see less tax collecting now as a good thing? Has anyone told the Swiss yet?

[roll_over]

What do you think the second order effect of UK pilots becoming more expensive will be?

Hopefully it will make tickets more expensive. The American carriers seem to be doing alright, their pilots too. The USA is a closed shop though, not like Europe.

[SpamCanDriver]

How many actual jobs in the UK can you count right now? Cos I'm having a very hard time even trying to use up the fingers on one hand. The language thing in Europe was a thing, but only really for national carriers or their associated subsidiaries. There is a whole world of other operations that had no such language requirements. And who said none of us can speak any other language so let's just shut the door? I happen to speak French and I think you'll find other pilots do quite well with other languages too.

Do you really think there are enough UK jobs for the amount of British pilots? There is a major disconnect in the amount of jobs v pilots. Yes it's the case in Europe too, but time showed British pilots did very well in securing jobs in Europe with many airlines, all those opportunities now gone. I am rated on a type which only has 2 active UK operators, the vast majority of them are in Europe. Perhaps I'm receiving the brunt of it. I've no idea what UK opportunities exist for anyone coming out of flight school at present or in the near future.

As I said it depends on your circumstances, if you had a different type rating etc..
It's not a bed of roses in the EU either, I fly in the Sandpit currently so fly with lot's of EU citizens trying hard to get jobs in the EU.
No the language thing wasn't just a national carrier thing & when did I say all Brits only spoke one language?

The total amount of Jobs British pilots can apply for have has most definitely decreased, but so has the number of pilots applying for those jobs

Swings & Roundabouts

I sincerely wish you the best of luck finding a job, god knows we've all been there!

[CASBO]

Hopefully it will make tickets more expensive. The American carriers seem to be doing alright, their pilots too. The USA is a closed shop though, not like Europe.

Exacto. So when pilots get expensive in the UK, the ticket prices don't go up, the jobs just go abroad.

[FlyingStone]

We weren't always eligible for jobs in the EU due to language requirements, whereas obviously all pilots speak English. That did skew the opportunities a little

You quietly forgot to mention that every single British pilot has ICAO Level 6 (which has been required for most UK-based jobs, alongside verbal reasoning tests etc.) and unlike most of their colleagues they've had the pleasure of studying for and taking their ATPL exams in their native language, making it either much easier to achieve the same level - or, with the same amount of effort invested, achieve a much higher level of knowledge.

[A320LGW]

As I said it depends on your circumstances, if you had a different type rating etc..
It's not a bed of roses in the EU either, I fly in the Sandpit currently so fly with lot's of EU citizens trying hard to get jobs in the EU.
No the language thing wasn't just a national carrier thing & when did I say all Brits only spoke one language?

The total amount of Jobs British pilots can apply for have has most definitely decreased, but so has the number of pilots applying for those jobs


Give me a wider job market any day of the week. What we have in the UK right now is depressing. As for the language, my point was despite language requirements, British pilots did find jobs because many did speak other languages, it was not a barrier in many cases, but those opportunities are now gone. I'm not going to start listing airlines and various other ops that did not require you to speak local languages anyway, there were and still are many. Every other day i have a look and see other opportunities on the continent with English ICAO 5 as the only language requirement.

FlyingStone raises a good point. Many people complained BA for example were open to EU pilots but their national carriers effectively closed to us, but BA require ICAO 6; something very few EU pilots actually have except for the Irish.

[SpamCanDriver]

You quietly forgot to mention that every single British pilot has ICAO Level 6 (which has been required for most UK-based jobs, alongside verbal reasoning tests etc.) and unlike most of their colleagues they've had the pleasure of studying for and taking their ATPL exams in their native language, making it either much easier to achieve the same level - or, with the same amount of effort invested, achieve a much higher level of knowledge.

I didn't quietly forget anything.

I am speaking in generalities...

There are far more EU pilots that speak English to a very high standard, than there are Brit pilots who speak another EU language to a very high standard. The Dutch would probably outnumber us Brits by themselves, let alone including the Scandinavians etc etc
As you rightly point out we already have the luxury of speaking the international language of aviation, where did I claim otherwise?
I might be out of date, but even recent job adverts I had seen advertised only asked for ICAO level 4 for jobs based in the UK.
Obviously some like BA have some very tricky verbal reasoning tests & I take my hat off to anyone who can pass the verbal reasoning tests for BA as a non native speaker, that is a seriously impressive achievement.

[SpamCanDriver]

Give me a wider job market any day of the week. What we have in the UK right now is depressing. As for the language, my point was despite language requirements, British pilots did find jobs because many did speak other languages, it was not a barrier in many cases, but those opportunities are now gone. I'm not going to start listing airlines and various other ops that did not require you to speak local languages anyway, there were and still are many. Every other day i have a look and see other opportunities on the continent with English ICAO 5 as the only language requirement.

FlyingStone raises a good point. Many people complained BA for example were open to EU pilots but their national carriers effectively closed to us, but BA require ICAO 6; something very few EU pilots actually have except for the Irish.

As I said, depends on your priorities
You prefer a wider job market, some like myself want to fly in the UK

Good for some people, bad for others

I never said British pilots didn't find employment in the EU, we did in fairly large numbers. But Language requirements did also bar us from quite a few jobs, not just legacy flag carrier jobs.

I fly everyday with plenty of EU pilots who have level 6 English & well done to them, can only speak for the sandpit nowadays but its not that rare here

The number of EU pilots @ BA compared to the number of Brits @ other EU flag carriers speak for themselves.
And as I said above anyone who is a non native speaker who passed those verbal reasoning tests absolutely earned that job & fair play to them for a seriously impressive achievement.
I'm just saying if you're a Brit who wants to fly for BA etc, now you will have less competition for that role.

[happyjack]

Brexit was a good thing. The Brexit we got is a disaster? That is all down to the traitors in Westminster. Their continous attempts to trip Brexit up have resulted in the worst possible deal. Neverending surrendering to Brussels with nothing in return. UK politicians are to blame for all of this. There are not enough gallows!

[A320LGW]

Brexit was a good thing. The Brexit we got is a disaster? That is all down to the traitors in Westminster. Their continous attempts to trip Brexit up have resulted in the worst possible deal. Neverending surrendering to Brussels with nothing in return. UK politicians are to blame for all of this. There are not enough gallows!

You get what you vote for. From Brexit to the politicians. The only thing we probably don't vote for is the media, (who are culpable in all of this) but then again, people indirectly "vote" for them by tuning in/buying the printed nonsense and handing them more power. No end to the vicious circle.

As I said, depends on your priorities
You prefer a wider job market, some like myself want to fly in the UK


And so would I, it isn't working out very well though ...

[olster]

Happy Jack you are spot on. The current vogue is to disrespect democracy and do your level best to disrupt and obstruct all post Brexit protocols to allow the Remainers if we must call them that to say ‘I told you so’. We get the same nonsense in Scotland with Indy supporters never letting go or respecting the result of the Edinburgh agreement democratically resolved in 2014. I think it is a post modern characteristic whereby people do not tolerate not getting their own way. In terms of Brexit and pilots the resultant licensing chaos for pilots pan Europe is a direct result of this deliberate obstruction by the faceless bureaucratic idiots in either the political class, civil service or indeed and a special mention to the Belgrano. Let’s look at it logically: there is absolutely no reason why a French person can’t fly a G registered B737 nor a Brit an F registered 737 except for an arbitrary date. It makes no sense / rant over.

[FlyingStone]

Brexit was a good thing. The Brexit we got is a disaster? That is all down to the traitors in Westminster. Their continous attempts to trip Brexit up have resulted in the worst possible deal. Neverending surrendering to Brussels with nothing in return. UK politicians are to blame for all of this. There are not enough gallows!

So you think an even harder Brexit would have been better for British pilots... in what way exactly?

Let’s look at it logically: there is absolutely no reason why a French person can’t fly a G registered B737 nor a Brit an F registered 737 except for an arbitrary date. It makes no sense / rant over.

Apart from that little fact that UK voluntarily left EASA and UK CAA licences are no longer compliant with EASA Part-FCL, and therefore not valid on EASA aircraft. Little facts, but why bother with them, right?

[olster]

The facts are that EASA has nothing to do with the EU. There was no reason for the U.K. CAA to disengage from EASA. The licences are non compliant with Part FCL because a bunch of bureaucratic morons decided; the academic and flying content both sides of the channel were / are identical. Facts, why bother with them eh?

[Richard S Evans]

I agree. Many of the young FO’ I fly with are dismayed at how many Nigel’s voted leave. So we know what company I am talking about.

[FlyingStone]

There was no reason for the U.K. CAA to disengage from EASA.

Of course there wasn't. Turns out Brexit doesn't make sense in a lot of areas as well.

How are LPV approaches doing in the UK these days? I heard they are very sovereign.

[Bergerie1]

See my post 19. Tory ideology is solely to blame for the UK not being in EASA. There was absolutely no need to leave. Having spent a large part of my professional life working on European aviation issues, it is heartbreaking to see the damage that is now being done - and it was all so predictable.

[Time Traveller]

A fundamental aspect of Brexit was to disengage from the ECJ. That being so, the withdrawal from EASA became a necessity; a direct consequence of Brexit self harming, not from bureaucratic belligerence.

[deltahotel]

Faceless bureaucrats, otherwise known as civil servants carrying out policy laid down by politicians, negotiated by an unelected appointee previously vocal in favour of not leaving the EU (until offered a peerage).

[Vokes55]

I’m sure it won’t be long until the Chinese airlines open up for recruitment again, for anybody who can’t accept the result of a democratic process.

[SWBKCB]

Faceless bureaucrats, otherwise known as civil servants carrying out policy laid down by politicians, negotiated by an unelected appointee previously vocal in favour of not leaving the EU (until offered a peerage).

You forgot the mandated by the electorate bit.

And isn't right to work an issue as well as licences?

[deltahotel]

Right to live and work would be very much an issue regardless of licences. Wasn’t FoM a central plank of Vote Leave? Ms Patel cheered to the rafters when she announced that FoM was finally achieved.

[FlyingStone]

I’m sure it won’t be long until the Chinese airlines open up for recruitment again, for anybody who can’t accept the result of a democratic process.

How democratic was the subsequent prorogation of the parliament?

[Vokes55]

How democratic was the subsequent prorogation of the parliament?

I don’t know, or care. This is the terms and conditions section of an aviation forum, not a political one, or Twitter. But the OP (and subsequent contributors) was asking why people voted leave and then insinuated that their inability to find a job is solely due to Brexit and those who voted for it, and absolutely nothing to do with his/her CV or professional or personal credentials.

I can see at least three A320 operators desperately short of pilots in the UK, as well as almost every ME airline. A320 jobs pop up every day, it’s the most useful type rating on Earth. But hey, let’s blame a democratic vote that happened six years ago, rather than taking ownership of our own misfortunes. Victim culture alive and well in 2022.

[olster]

Ok, that is half of the U.K. electorate defined as stupid and / or selfish. Don’t ya just love the Internet? The fact remains that the legislation surrounding pilot licensing is archaic and confused. As I have already stated the licences should in reality be interchangeable for the qualification. For example, I spent 2 years on loan to a start up in Dubai as a B737 captain and trainer. During that time I flew with furloughed United pilots, Qantas, just about every European as well as a good proportion of Asia. All of us were granted a GCAA licence based on our current licence with the caveat of an air law exam. Fair enough. There was no difference in our collective technical capabilities other than the normal variation. Although I really take my hat off to those who fly when English is not the native language, my schoolboy French does not cut it. My main point ref Brexit is that there is no need for the U.K. to divorce from EASA. U.K. licences are identical in content and should be interchangeable in both directions. The resultant is down to bureaucratic spite and incompetence regardless of whether you think Brexit is a bad idea or not. There are pros and cons on both sides of the Brexit argument but that is done, move on. Regardless, the pilot community in U.K. and Europe have been let down.

[Contact Approach]

I see there are still many bureaucrats here defending the current situation between the UK and EASA. The fact of the matter is UK-Part FCL is an identical replica of EASA Part FCL: the training is the same, the training centres are the same, the examiners can be the same, the aircraft are the same, the requirements are the same and the standards are the same, the skills tests are the same and the medical requirements are the same… etc.
It’s purely political by both parties and it favours absolutely nobody.

[Time Traveller]

Again ... withdrawing from all ECJ influence required a withdrawal from EASA. Yes, they could have accepted the aspects of ECJ contained within EASA (as some non EU countries have done), but as Brexit became more and more fundamentalist, they decided the ECJ had to be utterly purged. I really don't see the underlying blame being at the belgrano.

[Contact Approach]

I think you're all missing the fundamental problem of Brexit, because it damn sure isn't licensing. Anyone can convert a licence, or in the worst case, sure, do the ATPLs again.

The problem is you have no right to live and work.

I have a European licence, and a UK licence. But if I got offered a job tomorrow in France, Spain or anywhere, am I eligible? No. I have no legal right to live and work in Europe anymore.

EASA and licensing is not the issue here.

Whilst you may be right, some of those affected are dual citizens or even EU citizens in fact. I know of at least 10 pilots who are now stuck with a UK licence and an EU passport. So, in some ways, yes licensing is an issue.

Perhaps UK and EU driving licences should go down the same route because why not just go full daft.

[Newcomer2]

Whilst you may be right, some of those affected are dual citizens or even EU citizens in fact. I know of at least 10 pilots who are now stuck with a UK licence and an EU passport. So, in some ways, yes licensing is an issue.

It's not like they didn't have time to transfer their license...
All of my European friends transfered their UK license to Ireland before the brexit took effect

[Contact Approach]

It's not like they didn't have time to transfer their license...
All of my European friends transfered their UK license to Ireland before the brexit took effect

Most of these people still work for a UK airline and subsequently haven’t been able to transfer their licences and finding alternative employment during Covid was not possible. Its never black and white and its disappointing people support this mess.

[tubby linton]

The facts are that EASA has nothing to do with the EU. There was no reason for the U.K. CAA to disengage from EASA. The licences are non compliant with Part FCL because a bunch of bureaucratic morons decided; the academic and flying content both sides of the channel were / are identical. Facts, why bother with them eh?
Easa is an EU agency as shown if you use its full name.

https://european-union.europa.eu/institutions-law-budget/institutions-and-bodies/institutions-and-bodies-profiles/easa_en

[AIMINGHIGH123]

Whilst you may be right, some of those affected are dual citizens or even EU citizens in fact. I know of at least 10 pilots who are now stuck with a UK licence and an EU passport. So, in some ways, yes licensing is an issue.

Perhaps UK and EU driving licences should go down the same route because why not just go full daft.


Well your last point has already happened in Spain. If you are a UK expat living in Spain you can no longer legally drive in Spain.

I too know a few EU citizens stuck with a UK licence. Working for a UK airline but since lost there job. Yes they can live in the EU but can’t get a flying job unless they cough up £3kish.

It’s a mess a real mess.

[Contact Approach]

Its a real mess that could and should have been sorted out by now.

Going forward the lack of recognition will be a huge burden on us Pilots and the european sector.

[Time Traveller]

Easa is an EU agency as shown if you use its full name.

https://european-union.europa.eu/institutions-law-budget/institutions-and-bodies/institutions-and-bodies-profiles/easa_en Don't bother tubby - they refuse to believe the Brexit they voted for, can be anything other than sweetness and light, and that any calamitous outcomes must instead be the fault of bureaucrats.

[deltahotel]

Leaving EASA was an unnecessary decision made by UK politicians (thanks Mr Shapps) but even so I am genuinely curious as to why someone has not been able to use the last few years to achieve the licence or licences they want. SOLI out of UK was simple (tedious, yes but simple), reacquiring a UK licence was simple (again, tedious but…) and the vast majority should have been able to now have either or both licences. Even I managed it! The right to be employed outside the UK is a whole different issue from licences.

[Contact Approach]

Certainly was the fault of the UK government and i can give you a few examples of how its not been possible for some to reacquire both licences:

1.) Was in employment with a UK airline on or before 01.01.20.

2.) Was in employment in the Middle East or Asia on or before 01.01.20 and hadn’t used or renewed the UK EASA equivalent for sometime.

3.) Lost their UK based job before 01.01.20, had a family to feed and had insufficient tokens to renew their TR and medical before SOLI, during the worst pandemic the industry has faced.

4.) was unable to renew his TR during covid due to lockdowns and availability so was told he couldn’t SOLI.

5.) Returned to the UK Airforce and was on deployment.

6.) In flight training over the deadline.

7). Had medical suspended whilst said pilot battled cancer over the deadline only to regain it with an OML which is a disqualifying factor for initial EASA medicals btw so now can’t obtain a new EASA class 1.


Theres a few examples a few i know have had. Yes its the fault of the uk Government however EASA could have easily implemented a simple process as the UK have done after the deadline to allow those who couldn’t SOLI the chance to obtain another licence once the UK had left.
This would have been arguably a more efficient approach as many did SOLI for a licence they’ll never use purely because they didn’t know what would happen.

[iggy]

"however EASA could have easily implemented a simple process as the UK have done after the deadline"

Is there any reason for EASA to do such thing?

[Kennytheking]

It's not like they didn't have time to transfer their license...
All of my European friends transfered their UK license to Ireland before the brexit took effect
Not everybody can just transfer their license. I wrote my UK ATPL last year - 30 years after doing my license in South Africa for the first time. The only market I plan to work in, is the UK market as it is the only one where I will have the right to work - now it turns out I need an EASA ATPL because half the operators in UK have an EASA AOC. I should not have to do the same license twice just to do the same job in the same country.

[happyjack]

The often quoted term " No right to live and work in the EU anymore" is not correct. What has been forfeited is the automatic right only. It is still entirely possible.

The UK completely screwed the pooch after leaving EASA. I had an EASA licence in my possesion that I contributed to their coffers for. Now they want me to jump over many hurdles and pay pay pay to have what I already had! But the UK gave Jonny Foreigner access to UK jobs without securing anything reciprical. My mind tells me it was deliberate? Putting other nationalities interests ahead of the British is a constant theme in 21st century UK.

[FlyingStone]

The often quoted term " No right to live and work in the EU anymore" is not correct. What has been forfeited is the automatic right only. It is still entirely possible.

Which EU airline provides work visas for British pilots and their families?

[AIMINGHIGH123]

Contact approach exactly!!! All those points.

It took me around 4 months to SOLI and it was not an easy process. I was employed up until March 2020. Had a few interviews lined up all UK based between May-August 2020 lovely. Obviously never expected COVID to get so bad. Couldn’t sort anything until 2021 due to restrictions on travel get COVID myself etc etc.

All in around £3k to get an EASA licence. I mean I had to do an initial C1 medical again but can only be done either in London or Birmingham. Held a C1 for 10 years and had to spend £1000 to get an initial.

For people outside of the UK or EU it is nigh on impossible.

[happyjack]

Which EU airline provides work visas for British pilots and their families?

There are thousands of Brits working in the EU who have been sponsored by their employer to be there. Not so much in aviation I grant you but also prior to Brexit how many British pilots were working for Air France, Lufthansa, etc? They always protected their domestic pilot situation. Britain gave its away and continues to do so. There are corporate operators on the continent that will still help with the required paperwork if they want you!

[happyjack]

Whalejet. I get no joy whatsoever from reading a story like that and I wish you better fortune elsewhere.
However, your story completely re-inforces my point. Obstacles are put in the way of British pilots to protect the European workforce. That's always been the case. But It is NOT reciprecated in any way.
On the contrary, the requirement for an EU pilot citizen to get a UK flying job is little more than a minimum salary of 25,600 GBP. So that's everyone then?
The UK welcome all foreign pilots whilst screwing their own's abilties to work somewhere else through licencing. I can think of no other country that would do such a thing? Indeed, a UK airline with an EASA AOC that now cannot employ UK pilots without EASA licences, that they had 2 years ago, so look to take foreign pilots instead? You just could not make this up!
With all the Brexit agreements there was a chance to reciprecate with everything. As any sensible person would do? But I can think of no situation at all where this has been the case? Made all the more appalling as the UK had the much stronger hand in any negotiation to get it's way but thanks to the traitors in Westminster it has all been given away for no return. A shocking mess that has tainted Brexit and will continue to do so for ever. Even now, 7 years after the vote and 2 years after leaving the EU what has been done to exploit the "free" position the UK is in and capitalise on it? Nothing? Your government is actively working against you!

[nomilk]

W
With all the Brexit agreements there was a chance to reciprecate with everything. As any sensible person would do? But I can think of no situation at all where this has been the case? Made all the more appalling as the UK had the much stronger hand in any negotiation to get it's way but thanks to the traitors in Westminster it has all been given away for no return. A shocking mess that has tainted Brexit and will continue to do so for ever. Even now, 7 years after the vote and 2 years after leaving the EU what has been done to exploit the "free" position the UK is in and capitalise on it? Nothing? Your government is actively working against you!
Wow, you have not understood what was going on, right? We are where we are, because the UK refused any sensible solution in the negotiations, so the EU just returned to default. What stronger hand? What did you want? Not the default? That was the point of brexit, according to you.

[Flyhighfirst]

Hopefully it will make tickets more expensive. The American carriers seem to be doing alright, their pilots too. The USA is a closed shop though, not like Europe.

The US is almost exactly like Europe. 51 individual countries with a somewhat overriding federal government. Under the constitution states are almost seen as individual countries.

[am111]

Hopefully it will make tickets more expensive. The American carriers seem to be doing alright, their pilots too. The USA is a closed shop though, not like Europe.
The US is almost exactly like Europe. 51 individual countries with a somewhat overriding federal government. Under the constitution states are almost seen as individual countries.

My understanding is that the 1500 hour rule drove up pay and conditions in the states. Prior to that Regional Airline pilots qualified for food stamps. I would suggest that we perhaps implement a similar rule over here but past me would not be best pleased.

And whilst the US mirrors the EU somewhat in its governmental structure, I would say that’s where the similarities end. For example, whilst there are cultural differences between states, they are in no way as varied as the countries of Europe. And the aviation sector is an entirely different beast.

[FlyingStone]

There are thousands of Brits working in the EU who have been sponsored by their employer to be there. Not so much in aviation I grant you but also prior to Brexit how many British pilots were working for Air France, Lufthansa, etc? They always protected their domestic pilot situation.

How many British pilots were working for the likes of EasyJet, Wizz Air, Ryanair and a ton of other operators based outside of the UK?

There are corporate operators on the continent that will still help with the required paperwork if they want you!

And how do mere mortals without a rare and expensive bizjet type rating get employed in the EU post Brexit, if it's so simple?

[Denti]

My understanding is that the 1500 hour rule drove up pay and conditions in the states. Prior to that Regional Airline pilots qualified for food stamps. I would suggest that we perhaps implement a similar rule over here but past me would not be best pleased.

And whilst the US mirrors the EU somewhat in its governmental structure, I would say that’s where the similarities end. For example, whilst there are cultural differences between states, they are in no way as varied as the countries of Europe. And the aviation sector is an entirely different beast.

The 1500 hour rule would work even less in the EU than it does in the US. In the US there is at least somewhat of an market segment that allows at least some to get paid while they try to get their 1500 hours. That market segment does not exist in the EU. As you so aptly noticed, the aviation sector is a completely different beast over here than it is in the US. And it has been different for a very long time.

[Contact Approach]

We ought to stick together really and not grow apart, is that not obvious. We are not politicians we are pilots and the last time I checked an A320 was the same regardless of what registration was painted on the side, our airspace is the same and so is everything else. C’mon guys… and don’t say you voted etc. i didn’t, im a European living in the U.K.

[am111]

The 1500 hour rule would work even less in the EU than it does in the US. In the US there is at least somewhat of an market segment that allows at least some to get paid while they try to get their 1500 hours. That market segment does not exist in the EU. As you so aptly noticed, the aviation sector is a completely different beast over here than it is in the US. And it has been different for a very long time.

I’m not advocating for the 1500 hour rule but a recent post on Reddit gave me the impression that the rule was a knee jerk reaction to fix a non-existent problem. So whilst it didn’t really work in that regard, what it did do was create a pilot shortage that drove up pay and conditions.

Just to play devil’s advocate, most US pilots get their hours by instructing. If EASA were to implement a similar rule I’m sure the market for FIs would expand and with a glut of instructors perhaps less people would go to the states for their flight training. Probably no good for post Brexit Britain though, our weather doesn’t favour intensive flight training. Nor does government policy in regards to investing in general aviation.

[Contact Approach]

Yet all airlines fly into the U.K. everyday operating the same aircraft with identical crew training. Bizarre we can’t overcome this political ****storm with common sense…

[Cat Techie]

Yet all airlines fly into the U.K. everyday operating the same aircraft with identical crew training. Bizarre we can’t overcome this political ****storm with common sense…
Common sense went out the window in June 2016. Everything mentioned that made people like myself vote to stay in has happened. There are engineering jobs I cannot do as I have the right to work, but not the EASA paperwork to do so. Not going through the complete ****storm of exams and hoops I had to do to get my ticket with type!

[enzino]

And that's the UK Government's fault (and decision), don't blame the EU for that.
It's also their fault if airlines can operate in the UK with non-G registered aircraft.

By the way, my operator's UK branch should accept UK license holder.

[FlyingStone]

I don't think he is asking for more than the default. He's asking for equality. The UK gave the EU guys so many extra rights, without securing anything reciprocal.

Therefore, we find ourselves in a position of inequality, and unfair market conditions for the UK guys, even within the UK.

It's almost like if a union of 27 countries had greater bargaining power than a single country...

[Tsuchiya86]

I believe the EU operators in UK will have to transfer to a UK AOC and G regs by the end of '22, thereby ending this disparity.

[Cat Techie]

I believe the EU operators in UK will have to transfer to a UK AOC and G regs by the end of '22, thereby ending this disparity.
Is that for internal UK operations? Ruin Air are not doing so from now. I don't think international routes are affected as such. No carbotage rules broken.