Falklands 40

[Mogwi]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1320x2000/tail_555a6f8516befdf7adaafe6b0b6df7ab6d0091da.jpg
40 years ago this morning saw the first SHAR attack on Stanley airfield. We were all "counted out and counted back" despite the 20mm HE round through my tail!

[Null Orifice]

Well done sir!
Happy Anniversary (and many more).

[MPN11]

Well done sir!
Happy Anniversary (and many more).
Seconded, with thanks to Mogwi for his informative and insightful inputs here on PPRuNe

[Coltishall. loved it]

There's a 40th Falklands anniversary Motorcycle ride from Kings Lynn to Gt Yarmouth on the 12th of June if anyone up for it? To pay tribute to the hole in your shar fin and a lot of other things

[Kiltrash]

Again if I may add my appreciation for your bravery under fire and your book was a wonderfull read.
Thoughts with the ones that did not make it back, from both sides

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

BLACK BUCK 1 suitably commemorated at the International Bomber Command Centre today hosting the surviving participants of that exceptional effort. Gentleman, it was an honour and privilege to shake your hands. Mogwi, I concur MPN 11's remarks; live long and prosper.

[MPN11]

My ‘heroic’ contribution, as SATCO XW, was launching the Vulcans with a green Aldis (RT silence of course) with AOC 1 Gp stood beside me. A safe but spine-tingling moment I shall never forget. And deep respect to all those who were there, and did the dangerous and warry things.

[langleybaston]

Please sir, please!

Incredible times. I was P Met O at 1 Group Bawtry. The atmosphere was electric. My main responsibilities relevant to the conflict were Waddington, Scampton, Marham and Wyton. The S Met Os and their people did so well that I felt redundant at times. The staff were queueing up to get on duty, no leaves, no sickies ............
What is not generally known is that the Met Office did significant rejigging of the numerical model to cope with the southern hemisphere ............ the model turned out to be very good at winds, less so with weather.
Mike Knight and Air Cdr Carver and the air staff played a blinder. Carver was the only one with glasses, sometimes passed around the table: the "air staff glasses".
It was a privilege to be occasionally useful.
A late night glass is raised.

[Union Jack]

Please sir, please!

Incredible times. I was P Met O at 1 Group Bawtry. The atmosphere was electric. My main responsibilities relevant to the conflict were Waddington, Scampton, Marham and Wyton. The S Met Os and their people did so well that I felt redundant at times. The staff were queueing up to get on duty, no leaves, no sickies ............
What is not generally known is that the Met Office did significant rejigging of the numerical model to cope with the southern hemisphere ............ the model turned out to be very good at winds, less so with weather.
Mike Knight and Air Cdr Carver and the air staff played a blinder. Carver was the only one with glasses, sometimes passed around the table: the "air staff glasses".
It was a privilege to be occasionally useful.
A late night glass is raised.

A good few years too early for 'Should've gone to Specsavers'!:sad:

Jack

[MAINJAFAD]

Interesting post about Mogwi's jet being repaired on Facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/jetartaviationltd/posts/5448837338484263?notif_id=1651474397298061&notif_t=comment_mention&ref=notif

[ex-fast-jets]

Mog - why were you flying so high?

And smiling for the photo Op?

If you had been doing some proper low flying, the round would have passed safely over you without putting an unsightly hole in your fin!!

That would have been something to smile about!

[Ken Scott]

Seems like quite a lot of work to patch it up, Just file off the rough edges and apply speed tape, surely?!

[MPN11]

Mog - why were you flying so high?!
I recall Mog mentioning here seeing 5ft on the HUD on a run in to Stanley. Perhaps practice made perfect?

[The Oberon]

My ‘heroic’ contribution, as SATCO XW, was launching the Vulcans with a green Aldis (RT silence of course) with AOC 1 Gp stood beside me. A safe but spine-tingling moment I shall never forget. And deep respect to all those who were there, and did the dangerous and warry things.
I was also on ASI for the launch. I was an off duty Victor trade manager but we had been called in to provide extra "crew in" fault cover. Quite the most amazing thing I have ever seen, the noise, the dust, the whole thing. Quite brilliant.

[longer ron]

Seems like quite a lot of work to patch it up, Just file off the rough edges and apply speed tape, surely?!

Internal damage and the size of the hole would have meant needing access to repair internal structure first and then do a fairly standard battle damage repair to complete the job.

[Mogwi]

4th May was was pay-back day for the sinking of ARA General Belgrano two days before: Sheffield hit by Exocet (sank under tow) and Nick T killed attacking Goose Green. He was flying the Sea Eagle trials jet which had no RWR and was splashed by radar-laid 35mm. Lots of hand-wringing by the fish-heads that evening contrasting with a considerable hardening of attitude by the WAFUs!

My low flying was put to shame by the late, great Fred, who came face-to-face with a horse when cresting a “ridge” on the run in to Goose Green on the 1st. He was judging his height against the trees - which turned out to be gorse bushes!

Swing the lamp.

Mog

[NutLoose]

Is that the fin they patched then realised they hadn't taken all the shell bits out of it?

[Mogwi]

Still got that piece of tail on my study wall.

Mog

[Beamr]

Still got that piece of tail on my study wall.

Mog
Any chance of getting a picture of it in todays condition for display on this thread? Would be a nice comparison to the picture in the opening post.

[Ken Scott]

Quote. originally Posted by Ken Scott:
Seems like quite a lot of work to patch it up, Just file off the rough edges and apply speed tape, surely?!

Posted by Longer Ron:

Internal damage and the size of the hole would have meant needing access to repair internal structure first and then do a fairly standard battle damage repair to complete the job.

A classic example of Poe’s Law in action…

[Mogwi]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x505/fa214a55_aa3e_4f62_93fe_2860bc217d3c_91e51cb7a9ca355570c95e5 e708664fdda455f8c.jpeg
Do another trip, Sir! A very good repair and the aircraft was used later to attack some helos. Mog

[Beamr]

That was quick as a flash! Thank you sir!

[SLXOwft]

Mog, having come from the GR world did you notice any differences or have to make any adjustments when flying SHAR in mud moving mode?

[BEagle]

Didn't you also take a 7.62 round through a Wessex rotor blade in earlier life in NornIrn, Mog?

[Cat Techie]

Seems like quite a lot of work to patch it up, Just file off the rough edges and apply speed tape, surely?!

Speed Tape doesn't restore the structural strength of the damaged area, that is the overriding purpose of ABDR (now Expedient Repair). As mentioned by Longer Ron, the internal structure needed to be repaired to restore the integrity of the internal structure. I had a chat with the guy that did the repairs on what they used and how it compared to the repairs I was involved with during GW1. Standard external ABDR patch covering the holes with internal structure repaired by sheet and internal rib load paths replaced by an external stringer and the old ABDR rivet formula. Stuff I was taught on the crash course we did at Abo in 1990.

[charliegolf]

Didn't you also take a 7.62 round through a Wessex rotor blade in earlier life in NornIrn, Mog?

Errant crewman?

CG

[BEagle]

Nope - incoming round. Perhaps from a Tommy?

[Mogwi]

I was fired at during a night troop lift outside Armagh but they missed! Quite pretty actually, until I realised what it was. Got my own back with a couple of milk bottles over the Falls Road - they make a very fine whistling noise on the way down,
.
Mog

[Mogwi]

Mog, having come from the GR world did you notice any differences or have to make any adjustments when flying SHAR in mud moving mode?

Yes, there were differences: No moving map made nav more tricky and the A/G aiming system was (initially) pretty crude. This was improved dramatically in short order and ended up being somewhat better than the GR3. Rearward view was much better than GR3, which vastly improved lookout in a hostile environment.

One snag was that SHAR training for ground attack was cursory during conversion and CBUs were not even in the RN inventory, so a bit of rapid briefing was required. Luckily there was a substantial cadre of ex-mud-movers from previous types (inc GR3) so we managed pretty well.

Soon decided that AD was safer and more fun though!

Mog

[gums]

Salute!

Nice hole in the jet, Mog!

Looks like a .50 cal or 12.7 API or maybe a wimp 20mm thing. The pic resembles those I saw mostly. As long as they didn't hit a spar or half-empty fuel tank, very survivable.

Gums sends...

[Beamr]

Theres an interesting article on BBC with apparently photos that has never before been published. Theres an interesting picture of Pucaras on Port Stanley after the hostilities seized. They've received quite a lot of battering and I can't quite get it why they were parked in such a tight formation (assuming they are as they were left by the Argentinians).

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/976x549/_124309576_falklandstrplane_1_327d7b1ea08c019b1dd09b71551b3b b69d03aa48.jpg

see the full set here: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-61220530

[N707ZS]

Did the RAF ever fly any of the Pucaras that we salvaged from the Falklands.

[Krystal n chips]

Friend of mine was driving a Beaver one day, admiring the view, when some of the locals took exception to his scenic tour in that part of the Province ...this upset him a bit, so, a couple of days later, he took the same scenic tour but this time, invited some friends on the ground along to watch his flying skills ...seemingly, thereafter, his scenic tours of the area continued undisturbed .

As for BDR / Expedient repair, as somebody who participated in the, very, embryonic basic trials and development in Germany, and whilst some of our basics remain, the development of the techniques and materials used, along with the rapidity, makes for a fascinating "contrast and compare " exercise....came in useful it seems.

[AndySmith]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1133x849/19_1_38305b10295d1edc5b02acb9e69fcbc79e9570b6.jpg
Did the RAF ever fly any of the Pucaras that we salvaged from the Falklands.

[ancientaviator62]

I recall bringing some very 'rusty' looking bombs back from the Falklands in the C130K. Chalked on them were the words 'X-rayed fit return UK one flight only'. I do not know whether they were Argentinian or UK. Rather concentrated the mind !

[MPN11]

I recall bringing some very 'rusty' looking bombs back from the Falklands in the C130K. Chalked on them were the words 'X-rayed fit return UK one flight only'. I do not know whether they were Argentinian or UK. Rather concentrated the mind !
One hoped Hoskins wasn't doing the landing. :sad:

[[email protected]]

invited some friends on the ground along to watch his flying skills Ah yes, the Spotters Aviation Society were very good at changing people's perceptions about that sort of thing:)

[AndySmith]

I recall bringing some very 'rusty' looking bombs back from the Falklands in the C130K. Chalked on them were the words 'X-rayed fit return UK one flight only'. I do not know whether they were Argentinian or UK. Rather concentrated the mind !
This reminds me of the apparent debate between the crew of the C-130 that retrieved the shrike missile from Rio, from the Vulcan that ended up there and departed without it, for transportation back to Ascension. I seem to recall there was some debate as to which direction to point the missile.

[MPN11]

My 1983 FI not-very-warry souvenirs:

1. Speedo of my LWB Landy, which I rendered u/s by travelling too fast and overloaded with pax.
2. Essential souvenir Mug from the shop.
3. Post-conflict new issue £1 note.
4. Falklands Rock [non edible variety] recovered from Stanley runway after Quarry-blasting.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1471/img_1634_d43ccd8d94b9963b17c5abd5a632ea1263be7c7a.jpg

[NutLoose]

This reminds me of the apparent debate between the crew of the C-130 that retrieved the shrike missile from Rio, from the Vulcan that ended up there and departed without it, for transportation back to Ascension. I seem to recall there was some debate as to which direction to point the missile.

Wasn't that the one diasrmed by the crew with an idiots guide sent to them that started along the lines of "standing in front of the missile with the pointy end to the left".

[Mogwi]

Salute!

Nice hole in the jet, Mog!

Looks like a .50 cal or 12.7 API or maybe a wimp 20mm thing. The pic resembles those I saw mostly. As long as they didn't hit a spar or half-empty fuel tank, very survivable.

Gums sends...

Hail Gums!

Yes, 20mm HE from a Rheinmetall 202 firing 40 rounds a second. Hate to think where the other 120 odd rounds went! Didn’t half make a bang. Fortunately he didn’t quite get the lead right and hit the only bit of the aircraft that was not engine, fuel tank or pink bits.

Mog

[sandiego89]

Hail Gums!

Yes, 20mm HE from a Rheinmetall 202 firing 40 rounds a second. Hate to think where the other 120 odd rounds went! Didn’t half make a bang. Fortunately he didn’t quite get the lead right and hit the only bit of the aircraft that was not engine, fuel tank or pink bits.

Mog

That is an attention getter!

Mog, I know you have done some post 1982 visits to certain sites and outreach to the other participants, did you ever pinpoint or visit the AAA site or find which crews were on the other end of the 202?

[grobbling about]

Did the RAF ever fly any of the Pucaras that we salvaged from the Falklands. I believe one of our fellow Ppruners, pontifex may have had that pleasure

[grobbling about]

Having spent 6 months ‘holding’ on 1(F) Sqn and living in the Wittering OM in ‘80/81, I watched from the sidelines as mates from both the RAF and RN sailed south and mourned when I learnt that some weren’t coming back. During that period I became particular friends with Lt Steve Thomas, honing our skills on the bar Galaxian machine. Like to think I played my part in developing his air combat skills. Last saw him in ‘85 and all attempts to track him down have failed. Anyone have any ideas?

[Mogwi]

Last heard of in Cathay. You might try the Fragrant Harbour site.

Mog

[MENELAUS]

Having spent 6 months ‘holding’ on 1(F) Sqn and living in the Wittering OM in ‘80/81, I watched from the sidelines as mates from both the RAF and RN sailed south and mourned when I learnt that some weren’t coming back. During that period I became particular friends with Lt Steve Thomas, honing our skills on the bar Galaxian machine. Like to think I played my part in developing his air combat skills. Last saw him in ‘85 and all attempts to track him down have failed. Anyone have any ideas?

Long retired. And I think in the West Country.

[Mogwi]

That is an attention getter!

Mog, I know you have done some post 1982 visits to certain sites and outreach to the other participants, did you ever pinpoint or visit the AAA site or find which crews were on the other end of the 202?

Hi Sandy,

There were a fair number of 202s around the airfield (and Oerlikon 35 mm) but only one survives today, to the north of the strip. I think that one was too far north to have been the one responsible, more likely to be one a bit east of the tower. No, I have never found out who the operator was but as you say, I have met and made friends with a number of Argentine vets as well as the son of one of the Skyhawks we shot down on 8th June.

Can’t see that happening after the present furore in Ukraine.

Mog

[gums]

Salute!

Interesting point, Mog.

Once we left the war to the locals, the North Vee were very accommodating with our MIA recovery efforts. After the real end of the war in 1975, things got even better,

My comrades that have gone back have had nice relations, including one guy that bombed a village during a CSAR mission due to a AAA gun near a church. He sat down one day 20 years later with a village elder and had a beer. The Misty FAC's have gone back and had similar encounters. The answer is simple, but that's for another thread with less censorship.

Gums sends...

[AndySmith]

Hi Sandy,

There were a fair number of 202s around the airfield (and Oerlikon 35 mm) but only one survives today, to the north of the strip. I think that one was too far north to have been the one responsible, more likely to be one a bit east of the tower. No, I have never found out who the operator was but as you say, I have met and made friends with a number of Argentine vets as well as the son of one of the Skyhawks we shot down on 8th June.

Can’t see that happening after the present furore in Ukraine.

Mog

Hi Mogs

This somewhat optimistic video was recently released on Youtube regarding the 1st May attack by your squadron. Whilst it is in Spanish, for those who aren't speakers it is possible to watch it with subtitle on, and then on the settings you can select auto-translate and then English from the list.

It identifies the location of some of the AAA sites and interviews with some of those that were shooting. Obviously, they're pretty sure they shot down some aircraft, including on that impacted into the sea 300m from the beach - but at least it gives you an idea. Did the Tartan section really get that close with the loft bombing and come under fire Mogs? I do happen to know some members of that unit who don't have such rose tinted glasses - and and put the exaggerated claims down to inexperience. A Marine tigercat crew also optimistically claimed a shoot down that several of their team claim to have witnessed crashing - and I'd like to have several pints of what they were drinking - the Tigercat was fired from further down near the ESRO station at the far end of the harbour - so fat chance... anyway - it's interesting viewing in spite of the optimism. I was going to send you the link by email - but might as well share it here.

The alternative reality of 1st May

As you know, Mogs, not everyone from that area of south america is so distorted.

Cheers

Andy

[ex-fast-jets]

Andy

Thanks very much for posting that video.

Fascinating.

Whatever their claims, they were undoubtedly a very effective deterrent to many attacks by us against the airfield, so even if they didn't actually shoot down a number of aircraft, they most certainly stopped us from carrying out more effective attacks than we did. Well done them!

If the black dots are representative of 1000lb bombs landing in the area, then I can claim at least some of them - even if many of them didn't actually hit anything worthwhile! I assume the Black Buck raids offer some of the strings shown, so well done to those guys and their tanker supporters!!

Perhaps we were as good a deterrent against them using the airfield to better effect as they were to us from attacking it better.

So war has different views from different sides, and different effects.

But war is not a good way to resolve differences, as we are seeing in Ukraine.

Thanks for that - great video.

[NIREP reader]

I made a detailed 1/24th Scale model of Mogwi’s skirmished aircraft. I was actually contacted by Gordi Batt’s son giving me praise on the kit on how his dad would have flown it at the time.
https://live.staticflickr.com/910/28205983418_89d60e2612_c.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/968/28205982418_aae21dff03_c.jpg

I was 13 at the time and transfixed with the coverage back home on what was going on. I recall recording every broadcast on our new Video recorder with buttons; more like levers the size of lollipop sticks!.

Steve.

[Mogwi]

Hi Mogs

This somewhat optimistic video was recently released on Youtube regarding the 1st May attack by your squadron. Whilst it is in Spanish, for those who aren't speakers it is possible to watch it with subtitle on, and then on the settings you can select auto-translate and then English from the list.

It identifies the location of some of the AAA sites and interviews with some of those that were shooting. Obviously, they're pretty sure they shot down some aircraft, including on that impacted into the sea 300m from the beach - but at least it gives you an idea. Did the Tartan section really get that close with the loft bombing and come under fire Mogs? I do happen to know some members of that unit who don't have such rose tinted glasses - and and put the exaggerated claims down to inexperience. A Marine tigercat crew also optimistically claimed a shoot down that several of their team claim to have witnessed crashing - and I'd like to have several pints of what they were drinking - the Tigercat was fired from further down near the ESRO station at the far end of the harbour - so fat chance... anyway - it's interesting viewing in spite of the optimism. I was going to send you the link by email - but might as well share it here.

The alternative reality of 1st May (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwo8-iNSZNw)

As you know, Mogs, not everyone from that area of south america is so distorted.

Cheers

Andy

Many thanks for the vid, Andy. I need to get a grandchild to explain how to get the translation but just looking at it there certainly appears to be some “fog of war” going on. The “tossers” wouldn’t have got closer that 2.5 miles during the attack, so a good Roland shot, but not any good for guns. The attack headings/ timings are a bit random and obviously, we know that I was the only one hit.

On the positive side, I reckon it might have been fire-point 6 that hit me and I did have a Tigercat cross my nose, right to left, chasing Bertie P down the runway.

Interesting day!

Mog

[Blacksheep]

I was thinking of the time I was on UK leave from Brunei and sat with my Dad watching the fleet set sail for the Falklands. He watched the shots of crew practicing going to Action Stations and commented ominously, "Wait until they do it for real and then they'll know..." Was that really 40 years ago?

40 years! I realised that when I bought my Dad a pint in the Sergeants Mess a few days before my demob, it was only 33 years since he was a 19 year old signaller in HMS Forester, fighting with E boats off the Normandy coast. How time flies!

[dagenham]

Just reading the excellent new book on goose green. The opening chapter is an interesting perspective on the press huddle around mowgli and his bullet hole.

apparently the press where so engaged in photos and interviews none looked back as the first sas patrol camp up on the aircraft lift and boarded the sea king for insertion.

the book is only 99p on Amazon kindle download at the moment too

[SLXOwft]

Mog, belated thanks for your reply. 'One snag was that SHAR training for ground attack was cursory during conversion and CBUs were not even in the RN inventory,'

Got me thinking, were the custard bombs, that were delivered in response to your suggestion, confined to Hermes? In their absence would you have been expected to have used 2-inch against parked aircraft etc.:eek:? I understand 1(F) used both CBUs and 2-inch against troop poditions?

Also, I wonder if 'you know who' had CBUs on his wish list when he was flying the relevant desk. Funding them is a different question, one tends to forget how tight things were, as some one put it to me he was thinking aalong the lines of 'soon we'll be alongside and the pipe will be, for exercise the ship is now at sea'. 'No way, anti-armour weapon - not a Navy role.'

[Ddraig Goch]

What's the name of the book Dagenham please!

[Mogwi]

Mog, belated thanks for your reply. 'One snag was that SHAR training for ground attack was cursory during conversion and CBUs were not even in the RN inventory,'

Got me thinking, were the custard bombs, that were delivered in response to your suggestion, confined to Hermes? In their absence would you have been expected to have used 2-inch against parked aircraft etc.:eek:? I understand 1(F) used both CBUs and 2-inch against troop poditions?

Also, I wonder if 'you know who' had CBUs on his wish list when he was flying the relevant desk. Funding them is a different question, one tends to forget how tight things were, as some one put it to me he was thinking aalong the lines of 'soon we'll be alongside and the pipe will be, for exercise the ship is now at sea'. 'No way, anti-armour weapon - not a Navy role.'

As far as I am aware, only Hermes used CBUs. It might have been a function of magazine space being limited on Invincible. The fall-back would have been KRT but they give frag problems (30 secs between aircraft) during an attack. Level 2” rockets would be effective but would require a hard, level breakout to avoid frag without exposing yourself to the defences. 30mm likewise.

The RN had never even heard of BL755 until I mentioned it to the admiral’s aviation advisor in the bar, on the night we sailed. To be fair, they arrived by Chinook the following day!

Mog

[dagenham]

What's the name of the book Dagenham please!

Goose Green by Nigel Ely and various members of 2 para, RN and merchant navy

one of the best books I have read for a long time

[Ddraig Goch]

Thank you Dagenham, I've just bought it!

[superplum]

Hail Gums!

Yes, 20mm HE from a Rheinmetall 202 firing 40 rounds a second. Hate to think where the other 120 odd rounds went! Didn’t half make a bang. Fortunately he didn’t quite get the lead right and hit the only bit of the aircraft that was not engine, fuel tank or pink bits.

Mog
Pedantic point only, Wiki (I know, I know) lists rate of fire as 880-1000 rpm. Quite acceptable for a basic blow-back weapon.

I'm still in awe!
:ok:

[Mogwi]

Isn’t that per barrel though? These had 2 of the mothers.

Mog

[ex-fast-jets]

................I took off from ATLANTIC CONVEYOR in a GR3 and transferred to HERMES.

With my fellow GR3 drivers, we were effectively the Cavalry which allowed the SHAR community to abandon the dangerous low-level stuff, and leave that to us, while they bravely CAP'd in the safety of flight above 20,000' above any ARG ground defence threats, looking down for unsuspecting targets to go after with their AIM-9L's.

And three days later, the real stuff started when the boots got onto the ground..................

More to come, if anyone is interested!!!!!!

[Mogwi]

And very welcome you were! You got the sh*ty end of the stick, no doubt. The captain of Hermes wanted to launch you into the fight as soon as the aircraft were refuelled - amazing! Luckily wiser heads prevailed.

By this time, we had lost 3 SHARs and their pilots. One to AAA and two to bad weather. The arrival of Atlantic Conveyor on the 18th was a huge fillip; 8 x SHARs and 6 x GR3s plus pilots and ground crew. I seem to remember (just) a pretty good party in the wardroom that evening. Great to see lots of mates from Germany arriving.

As XFJ says, more if you are interested.

Mog

[cynicalint]

Mog and XFJ I think inputs similar to 'Gaining a Pilots wings in WW2" is an excellent idea. The Falklands is now further away than WW2 was When i joined in 1980. Having participated on the peripheral fringes, it is wonderful to hear the thoughts of those who were at the sharp end. Lets get this recorded before it is too late.

[Haraka]

Anybody here involved in the first RAF mission of the conflict?
(AFAIK it wasn't a Vulcan, Harrier, Nimrod or Canberra )

[Tengah Type]

If you don't count the VC10s and Hercs, I guess it would by the Victor MRR of South Georgia on 19/20 April 1982. Unless any of the naval helicopters embarked had RAF crews.

[Haraka]

Indeed !
We back configured a Victor Tanker with a vertical 6 inch F95 camera in the nose for this very long range recce mission to look around South Georgia for Maritime activity.
This was about the time that most were still wondering "Where the F*ck are the Falklands?" (and delayed my PVR by some months) :)

[teeteringhead]

Did the RAF ever fly any of the Pucaras that we salvaged from the Falklands And ISTR some engines were "acquired" for Gazelle and/or Jetstream. Or is that another Urban Myth???

[ex-fast-jets]

Thanks for bringing this whole thread back to reality.

It was not just Harriers which were involved - there were so many others who did so many things way outside their normal area of expertise, and who did not receive any - or very little - recognition of what was done.

In the end, it was "boots on the ground" that won the various battles - we were all enablers to let them get on with it.

But so much was done by the Tanker fraternity supporting the Vulcans and others, the C-130 mates, and the Merchant Navy who delivered all the kit - and then the helo folks who got it all into the right place at the right time. And, no doubt, many others who have missed the spotlight. Not just the pilots/aircrew who flew, but the ground folk who made these flights possible. (Apart from the met folk, who seemed to have had no idea what the weather was up to!).

So, before 40 years of collective memory disappears 6' under, let's hear of the varied efforts that allowed the final outcome to be what it was.

[[email protected]]

(Apart from the met folk, who seemed to have had no idea what the weather was up to!). to be fair, the weather in the Falklands is ridiculously changeable - the classic all 4 seasons in a day at any time of year. They are much better at it now they have had time to practice:ok:

[ex-fast-jets]

I accept your hit............

There was a wonderful MetMan on HERMES who one morning presented us with a Black and White OHP (remember those?) slide of the weather systems around us.

There was a very deep low to the west of us, heading in our direction.

His opening words were........

"In meteorological terms, this is known as a "Zebra's Arsehole".."

Very clear, very explicit, and absolutely correct!

[MPN11]

FI Winter, 1983, taken a couple of hours apart ... bizarre!


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x912/two_hours_later_2dd610fe3731db4e043334b11ad72b008b054a4a.jpg

[teeteringhead]

Went swimming off Stanley one Christmas Day (supposedly height of the Austral Summer). I do think it's the coldest water I've ever been in - that didn't have lumps (of ice!) in it........

[NutLoose]

................I took off from ATLANTIC CONVEYOR in a GR3 and transferred to HERMES.



A lot of my mates were on the Conveyor and went for a swim.. Though some of them were pragmatic about the whole thing, being a Civi ship they took full advantage of the bar facilities and a couple had cashed a few cheques on the way south. They are still down there somewhere, in the safe on the Conveyor.

[Haraka]

Without pointing fingers, it has been my experience on Ops that many problems have been due internally due to inane tasking and irrelevant requests coming down through the system.
Of course these are conveniently forgotten at cakes and medals time!

[DaveReidUK]

Did the RAF ever fly any of the Pucaras that we salvaged from the Falklands?

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x678/zd485_f5e02d35a97acdd3f50a1e64a01271e58e8a52e3.jpg

https://captured-wings.fandom.com/wiki/A-515?file=FMA_IA-58A_Pucara%252C_UK_-_Air_Force_AN1222539.jpg

[NickB]

The above Pucara (ZD485) was displayed on static at the IAT, RAF Greenham Common in July 83 just before being retired to Cosford.
It was flown/tested/displayed at the time by a former Lightning pilot - there is footage on YouTube of it landing at Greenham and said pilot being interviewed.

[The Helpful Stacker]

"Stanley City" or "The City of Stanley"?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61505857

[The Helpful Stacker]

Thanks for bringing this whole thread back to reality.

It was not just Harriers which were involved - there were so many others who did so many things way outside their normal area of expertise, and who did not receive any - or very little - recognition of what was done.

In the end, it was "boots on the ground" that won the various battles - we were all enablers to let them get on with it.

But so much was done by the Tanker fraternity supporting the Vulcans and others, the C-130 mates, and the Merchant Navy who delivered all the kit - and then the helo folks who got it all into the right place at the right time. And, no doubt, many others who have missed the spotlight. Not just the pilots/aircrew who flew, but the ground folk who made these flights possible. (Apart from the met folk, who seemed to have had no idea what the weather was up to!).

So, before 40 years of collective memory disappears 6' under, let's hear of the varied efforts that allowed the final outcome to be what it was.

When I first joined TSW there were a few still serving who had taken part in Op Corporate.

A few of them travelled with some of the kit on Atlantic Conveyor (one of them I believe getting an MiD for their actions after the Exocet hit).

Post Atlantic Conveyor I understand it became a scramble to get hold of fuels handling kit but scramble they did and through beg, borrowing and stealing (a noted TSW trait....) they eventually set up a site on dry(ish) land to support both helicopters and leaping heaps of various shades.

There are a few photos of TSW operations during Op Corporate in the book "Cold War, Hot Peace - 50 Years of Tactical Supply 1970-2020", I'll try to post them on here.

[Tengah Type]

In early June 1982,a week or so after the Atlantic Conveyor had sunk, I was on the Pan at ASI talking to the Fg Off Supplier at ASI. Possibly after
I had landed after BlackBuck 6 or 7. Whilst chatting we were approached by the RAF Commander Gp Capt Jerry Price and the CAS ACM Sir Michael Beetham
who was visiting the island. During the conversation the Fg Off told CAS that he was concerned that he had no way of recording what was passing through ASI
either going South or North. CAS said "Do not worry! We will know what left UK and what gets back. Everything else will have been on the Atlantic Conveyor."
This is NOT an apocryphal story as it is an old tradition. I was first aware of it when a Planeguard Whirlwind fell into the sea after an engine failure astern of
HMS Eagle(?) in 1963 in the Far East. The Board of Inquiry provisionaly established that the 24 Mess Kits, 12 Aircrew Watches,12 Swords, sundry Generators and other
inventory items loaded to the aircraft had contributed to the accident as the aircraft was several thousand pounds above MTOW. ( Not in the Final Report!)

There was also an amazing amount of " lost inventory items " unfortunately burnt in the major fire at Kineton!!

[Mogwi]

21st was D-day and the amphibs managed to get all our initial troops ashore without any major trouble. Shortly after dawn a Gazelle was fired on by Argentine troops retreating from Fanning Head and crashed in San Carlos Water. A second one sent to investigate was also downed and the crews were killed. The first attack on the ships came at 0900(L) when an MB339 from Stanley stumbled upon the amphibious group in San Carlos Water and attacked HMS Argonaut with rockets.

The main raids started shortly afterwards and continued unabated all day with waves of Daggers and Skyhawks coming in at low level from West Falkland. We established CAPs to the north and south of Falkland Sound as well as over land to the west. The Argentine aircraft were all too low for radar to pick them up and it was very much a visual fight. By the end of the day, 801 on Invincible had downed a Pucara (guns) and 2 x Daggers and we had dealt with 1 x Dagger and 5 x Skyhawks. One of our newly-arrived reinforcement pilots (ex-GR3) couldn’t get his Winder to lock, so attacked with 30mm at extremely close range. The target exploded with him very close behind and he flew through the debris without damage! On RTB he snagged the missile system but we discovered that he hadn’t turned them on!! His type conversion (a couple of trips) hadn’t covered selecting missiles - oops!

Another AIM9L had a thermal battery problem and launched several seconds after it had been fired, missing the target. The pilot then sprayed the A4 with 30mm and left him trailing smoke before he had to bug out with low fuel. The Skyhawk diverted to Stanley, where they discovered that one of his main u/c legs had been shot off and he was ordered to eject.

The day ended with 17 Argentine fast-jet losses and two helicopters taken out near Mount Kent by GR3s from Hermes. We had also got our troops ashore virtually unopposed. On the negative side, HMS Ardent had been sunk by Skyhawks in the Sound and three other warships had been damaged. No1(F) also lost a GR3 pilot on his first mission when he was hit by a Blowpipe missile over Port Howard. The pilot ejected at very low level, travelling very fast and ended up in the water with serious injuries and unable to get into his dinghy. He was saved by some Argentine soldiers, who rowed out in a small boat to rescue him.

We all realised that the next few weeks were going to be busy.

Mog

[albatross]

Immediately after the war a British Frigate did a tour of the St. Lawrence river in Canada and visited Montreal.
The boys stumbled upon the very popular Sir Winston Churchill Pub on Crescent Street.
They were ushered past the waiting line and welcomed with open arms.
I don’t think that for the duration of the week any officer or sailor paid for a drink in the WCP or any other bar on Crescent, Bishop or Mackay streets.
I must note that there were zero negative incidents during the visit to Montreal. Much fun was had by all.
It helped that the father of the manager of “The Winston Churchill” was a RCN LCDR veteran of WW2. Strangely enough he and I were recalling that visit just last week.
The day some of the regular clients, managers, bartenders, barmaids and various hangers-on did a tour of the ship was a spectacular success.
I am sure that some RN vets still have their WCP pins.
It. was the least we could do to show our support and appreciation of their service.

Would anyone have a clue as to the ship involved? Darned if I can remember.

( added info: When I was flying for the UN (UNIKOM) mission in Kuwait / Iraq in 92 after the first Gulf War our CASO ( Chief Air Staff Officer ) was Maj. Hector Sanchez who had flown on the Argentinian side. He went in one day as leader of a flight of A-4 Skyhawks. He was the only one to survive. Great guy. When he left he visited the UK and was invited as a guest to the RAF Club. )

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1430x1597/b23f2bb2_0139_4738_8b7c_6b01b476d8b8_dde400e93164dd99f13e340 6dd63d1c5ffa797b7.jpeg

[langleybaston]

to be fair, the weather in the Falklands is ridiculously changeable - the classic all 4 seasons in a day at any time of year. They are much better at it now they have had time to practice:ok:
The Mobile Met Unit [MMU, all commissioned and in RAF uniform] took the strain on Ascension and later at Stanley. I was not involved at the sharpish end, so only know the half of it. What I do know is that the people worked amazingly long hours. Almost always the current team were one forecaster and one observer, with a second team off duty. Minimum 6 months at 94 hours a week plus covering for any illness ....... nearest relief thousand of miles and many hours distant.

Like very many, they were totally unprepared for "upside down" weather ............... never taught in the in-house college, and negligible text-books. We had a few Falklands experts scattered around the UK but they were not MMU so could not be used operationally, and the Met Office did not have the wit to utilise them to run crash courses before the MMU men deployed.

One important and unsung aid was the rapid expansion of the current prediction model run at Bracknell. It was of little use in the "4 seasons in a day" scenario but it did, I believe, a decent job of high level wind forecasting.

As for the RN Met: I understand that the officers [of whom there were few] were oceanographers/ meteorologists, and were not highly regarded by our people. On Purple exercises the commander was often confronted by a RN forecast significantly different from that of the MMU, who dealt not in the fundamental orifices of zebras.

[Mogwi]

One of the problems we had to face was the weather. I have never seen 60kt fog before but it happened several times during the conflict. As LB will be attest, moist air over a very cold sea does not for good flying make! On one occasion I returned from a mission and was told that the clobas was “below 100ft”. Since our minimum was 200ft, I told the D to just give me the centreline and I would manage the glide path. Having had a quick skeg with the radar and confirmed no hard metal on the approach, I let down early on the rad alt and saw the sea at about 30ft.

I creamed on in taking more nozzle and slowing to around 100 kts, preparing for a hefty decel to the hover but at 1/2 NM the ship turned hard to stbd. In the mist, I saw what I thought was the wake and aimed for it - only realising very late that it was the bow wave! No sweat, braking stop decel followed by flying under the bow and a quick spot turn to line up alongside the ship on the port side before climbing into cloud and landing on 3 spot.

Apparently the captain stormed into Flyco and asked wings what the hell I was doing as I disappeared underneath the bow. Wings replied “I think he’s crashing Sir!” We did stop flying for a few hours after that, to let the weather improve slightly.

Heady days!

Mog

[The Helpful Stacker]

One of the problems we had to face was the weather. I have never seen 60kt fog before but it happened several times during the conflict. As LB will be attest, moist air over a very cold sea does not for good flying make! On one occasion I returned from a mission and was told that the clobas was “below 100ft”. Since our minimum was 200ft, I told the D to just give me the centreline and I would manage the glide path. Having had a quick skeg with the radar and confirmed no hard metal on the approach, I let down early on the rad alt and saw the sea at about 30ft.

I creamed on in taking more nozzle and slowing to around 100 kts, preparing for a hefty decel to the hover but at 1/2 NM the ship turned hard to stbd. In the mist, I saw what I thought was the wake and aimed for it - only realising very late that it was the bow wave! No sweat, braking stop decel followed by flying under the bow and a quick spot turn to line up alongside the ship on the port side before climbing into cloud and landing on 3 spot.

Apparently the captain stormed into Flyco and asked wings what the hell I was doing as I disappeared underneath the bow. Wings replied “I think he’s crashing Sir!” We did stop flying for a few hours after that, to let the weather improve slightly.

Heady days!

Mog

Hat duly doffed.

The Harrier is a tiny little office, wedging hairy sphericals in that large must have been a chore.

[Wokkafans]

21st was D-day and the amphibs managed to get all our initial troops ashore without any major trouble. Shortly after dawn a Gazelle was fired on by Argentine troops retreating from Fanning Head and crashed in San Carlos Water. A second one sent to investigate was also downed and the crews were killed.

***

Mog


There's a detailed Twitter thread article on this here:

https://twitter.com/NealRussell17/status/1527921687873855489?s=20&t=EuCfWsZ1ms5dlUnpPh3xvQ

[MAINJAFAD]

21st was D-day and the amphibs managed to get all our initial troops ashore without any major trouble. Shortly after dawn a Gazelle was fired on by Argentine troops retreating from Fanning Head and crashed in San Carlos Water. A second one sent to investigate was also downed and the crews were killed. The first attack on the ships came at 0900(L) when an MB339 from Stanley stumbled upon the amphibious group in San Carlos Water and attacked HMS Argonaut with rockets.

The main raids started shortly afterwards and continued unabated all day with waves of Daggers and Skyhawks coming in at low level from West Falkland. We established CAPs to the north and south of Falkland Sound as well as over land to the west. The Argentine aircraft were all too low for radar to pick them up and it was very much a visual fight. By the end of the day, 801 on Invincible had downed a Pucara (guns) and 2 x Daggers and we had dealt with 1 x Dagger and 5 x Skyhawks. One of our newly-arrived reinforcement pilots (ex-GR3) couldn’t get his Winder to lock, so attacked with 30mm at extremely close range. The target exploded with him very close behind and he flew through the debris without damage! On RTB he snagged the missile system but we discovered that he hadn’t turned them on!! His type conversion (a couple of trips) hadn’t covered selecting missiles - oops!

Another AIM9L had a thermal battery problem and launched several seconds after it had been fired, missing the target. The pilot then sprayed the A4 with 30mm and left him trailing smoke before he had to bug out with low fuel. The Skyhawk diverted to Stanley, where they discovered that one of his main u/c legs had been shot off and he was ordered to eject.

The day ended with 17 Argentine fast-jet losses and two helicopters taken out near Mount Kent by GR3s from Hermes. We had also got our troops ashore virtually unopposed. On the negative side, HMS Ardent had been sunk by Skyhawks in the Sound and three other warships had been damaged. No1(F) also lost a GR3 pilot on his first mission when he was hit by a Blowpipe missile over Port Howard. The pilot ejected at very low level, travelling very fast and ended up in the water with serious injuries and unable to get into his dinghy. He was saved by some Argentine soldiers, who rowed out in a small boat to rescue him.

We all realised that the next few weeks were going to be busy.

Mog

801 nailed 3 Daggers in the area of Mt Caroline, 2 to Steve Thomas and one to the Bearded One, who also downed the Pucara. In the three tours that I've down down there, I've only seen 4 aircraft wrecks which were all happened on 21st May 82. The Pucara I've only seen from the air, but the two Choppers taken out by 1(F) near Mount Kent and Dagger C-403 killed by Steve Thomas, I've seen up close.

[Mogwi]

The 22nd started slowly for us because the mainland bases were socked in. I flew two CAP missions without getting any trade but a pair from Hermes found an enemy patrol boat in Choiseul Sound and attacked it with 30mm, driving it ashore. On one of my missions, I picked up a transmission on 243.0 in the area of Port Howard, so we hoped that the GR3 pilot had survived his ejection the day before. A Sea king went to investigate but was fired on by a Blowpipe missile.

Air raids developed during the afternoon and the ships shot down three attackers, SHARs claiming another Dagger.

On the 23rd, I was flying CAP over West Falkland at 8000’ when I spotted the “snail trail” of a helo flying at ultra low level over an inlet on the west side of the sound. I dived down to around 50’ and flew head-on to the helo, to try to identify it and my wingman picked up a further 3 in trail and attacked from the opposite direction. At very close range, I realised that it was a Puma and therefore Argentine. Being too close to engage, I passed feet above him, pulling loads of G and pulled up for a dumbbell to attack with guns. As he appeared behind me, I realised that all was not well and he gyrated wildly before smashing into the side of the hill and bursting into flames.

Meanwhile, my wingman (same one who didn’t know how to select the missile,) was attacking the last aircraft, an A109A gunship. He missed by around 100 yards (wrong sight depression - another hole in his conversion!) but that allowed me to get visual and attack. I opened fire out of range in my enthusiasm and did a grid-square removal job without hitting the target. On my second attack though, I hit him with at least one round and the secondary explosion from the fuel tank obliterated the aircraft. With my wingman’s help, I got visual on a second Puma but only had 2 rounds remaining. Luckily one hit the tail rotor boom and incapacitated the aircraft, to be destroyed completely a few minutes later by two SHARs from Invincible.

On returning to Hermes, I was congratulated by the captain but told that we thought that the GR3 pilot had been captured on the 21st and was being ferried to Stanley - in a Puma. For some days, I was very concerned that I might have killed my mate. Luckily that was not the case, he was on another aircraft and the crews of all the helos actually survived the encounter.

The day did not end well for us though. HMS Antelope was hit by a formation of A4s (one literally hitting the mast!) and was left with at least one UXB deep inside her. That evening, a pilot launching on a night raid from Hermes hit the water around 1/2 mile ahead of the ship and blew up in a spectacular fireball. We had now lost 4 SHARs with their pilots and a GR3. The odds were starting to be a concern.

”Death says live while you may - for I am coming”

Mog

[Old Bricks]

Teeteringhead - Re question about engines being acquired for Gazelle or Jetstream. I was working in Int at HQ BFFI in Stanley Nov 82 - Mar 83, and we were told to recover aircraft instruments and other useful parts that had been liberated by the troops and recovered from them before departure back to the UK. These were all wrapped up and sent Boscombe Down to assist in getting the recovered Pucara airworthy again. At some stage, probably in early 83, 2 chief techs arrived looking for directions and assistance to get to derelict Pucaras to recover some specific part of the engines for the RAF Jetstreams - not the whole engine. I seem to remember that they were either from Cranwell or Finningley.

[Slow Biker]

to be fair, the weather in the Falklands is ridiculously changeable - the classic all 4 seasons in a day at any time of year. They are much better at it now they have had time to practice:ok:

In a pre-deployment briefing we were told the FI are a similar latitude S as Bedford is N. Therefore the weather will be similar!

[212man]

The above Pucara (ZD485) was displayed on static at the IAT, RAF Greenham Common in July 83 just before being retired to Cosford.
It was flown/tested/displayed at the time by a former Lightning pilot - there is footage on YouTube of it landing at Greenham and said pilot being interviewed.

A/C SERIAL No (rafmuseum.org.uk) (https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/collections/83-AF-1159-FMA-Pucara.pdf)

[mopardave]

Gents........keep it coming! This is a fascinating thread. Thank you.

[Fortissimo]

On the FI weather, I arrived mid-winter about 11 months after the cease fire (fashionably late…) as part of the F4 det. I lost an engine after T/O on my split-crew theatre famil trip and never got further than 15 miles from Stanley, one straight in approach and landing.

Trip #2 was the first opportunity to have a look round, but we were out east of E Falkland when we were told to RTB as the wx was clamping. Sure enough, the cloud base got lower and lower as we headed home, and we agreed it was far too bad to go up into it as neither of us knew how good MPN11 and his colleagues were. Oh, and we had no viable diversions without launching the C130 tanker.

I still have a mental snapshot of weaving gear down through the ships in the outer harbour with the base now at 100-150 ft. Turned finals on the “about now” principle and, courtesy of some top info from my ex-mud mover nav who had the INAS spot on, grubbed my way in until the runway edge lights appeared. There were no approach lights, not a surprise as the undershoot was full of Argy mines and UXOs from Mog and his mates.

We weren’t lined up well but, encouraged by a nav reminder that we wouldn’t be going round, I managed to get us to a point where the combination of horizontal vectors, landing gear built for the deck and a choice of 5 cables was sufficient.

Interesting debrief followed, at which the duty auth admitted he should probably have recalled us a bit earlier! The MMU had predicted the deterioration but the timing caught everyone out. We started an informal rule of thumb which prompted decisions when the gap between the cloud base and the top of Mt Longdon reduced to zero. Happy days.

[MPN11]

…

Trip #2 was the first opportunity to have a look round, but we were out east of E Falkland when we were told to RTB as the wx was clamping. Sure enough, the cloud base got lower and lower as we headed home, and we agreed it was far too bad to go up into it as neither of us knew how good MPN11 and his colleagues were. Oh, and we had no viable diversions without launching the C130 tanker.

I still have a mental snapshot of weaving gear down through the ships in the outer harbour with the base now at 100-150 ft. Turned finals on the “about now” principle and, courtesy of some top info from my ex-mud mover nav who had the INAS spot on, grubbed my way in until the runway edge lights appeared. There were no approach lights, not a surprise as the undershoot was full of Argy mines and UXOs from Mog and his mates.

We weren’t lined up well but, encouraged by a nav reminder that we wouldn’t be going round, I managed to get us to a point where the combination of horizontal vectors, landing gear built for the deck and a choice of 5 cables was sufficient.
...
We liked to think we in ATC were good, but the pilots were much better!

Strangely, a day or so ago I was pondering posting something about this incident after the earlier weather discussion. I watched what I assume was ‘your’ ULL circuit from ATC as the cloudbase tried to reach to ground level, and the SOF was debating launching the tanker Herc. And I gazed with a mix of admiration and horror as you disappeared from view behind the ‘hillock’ (elev some 75' amsl, according to Google Earth) on which our mobile AR-1 radar was perched.

A bit later, I installed a funnel of Sodium lights, very WW2, to at least give a bit more of a clue of where the AM-2 planks and those lovely 5 cables were located.

Interesting times!

[wiggy]

MPN11

Yep it was indeed an interesting environment.

FWIW there was at least one similar incident to the one Fortissimo described back end of 82/early 83 (I think one of those involved used to post here)...I'm also trying to remember if a rapid weather change was a factor in the incident in Autumn 82 where an F-4 stab had bruising, or perhaps more correctly a cutting encounter, with the cable.

Anyhow apologies for getting ahead of those genuine fortieth anniversary tales, maybe we can return to the post war stuff when it's appropriate in a few months and in the meantime hopefully the likes of Mogwi will be back with the genuine war stories.

[Mogwi]

The morning of the 24th was back to business as usual. We launched 2 x SHARs with KFFs for a loft attack on Stanley to soften them up for a GR3 attack with KRTs. The SHARs stayed high but distant after their attack to draw fire whilst the GR3s did their work (poor b*stards!). The second pair of GR3s got a bit close to the lead pair and the HUD film showed a shower of large bits of metal and debris falling all around them from the first pair!

CO 800 launched as they returned and managed to get a left and right on Daggers off the northern end of the sound after vectors from Broadsword. Both missiles were airborne at the same time and his #2 took out a third. The Boss was in a much better mood when he returned and was chaired away from his aircraft by our great maintainers.

We turned in that evening knowing that the 25th was Argentina's National Day and we were due for a pounding.

Mog
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/355x533/_00021_e1e0d665f57500cd6350260afd6475bdf6b63278.jpg
CO's return

[sandiego89]

.....On the 23rd, I was flying CAP over West Falkland at 8000’......

That evening, a pilot launching on a night raid from Hermes hit the water around 1/2 mile ahead of the ship and blew up in a spectacular fireball. We had now lost 4 SHARs with their pilots and a GR3. The odds were starting to be a concern.

Mog

Mog, Ex-fast jets, all, fascinating stuff thank you.

A question about fuel management and sortie duration on the Harrier and Sea Harrier. Mog, what would have been your longest duration mission down South? 1.2 hours perhaps? What would be your loiter speed be on a CAP at 8,000 feet? I recognize the situation dictates the CAP altitude, but would fuel burn on a CAP at 8,000 feet be significantly more than say at 25K feet? Regarding the tragic G.B. hit the water incident, I have heard some rumor that it could have been a detonating dumb bomb (free wheeling bomb fuse). While we will likely never know the exact circumstances, has there been additional thought on that?

Ex fast jets- similar question, how much time could a GR.3 spend aloft? What was your longest GR.3 sortie during the conflict? (minus the rear numbing long ferry flights), Shortest?

[Cat Techie]

MPN11

Yep it was indeed an interesting environment.

FWIW there was at least one similar incident to the one Fortissimo described back end of 82/early 83 (I think one of those involved used to post here)...I'm also trying to remember if a rapid weather change was a factor in the incident in Autumn 82 where an F-4 stab had bruising, or perhaps more correctly a cutting encounter, with the cable.

Anyhow apologies for getting ahead of those genuine fortieth anniversary tales, maybe we can return to the post war stuff when it's appropriate in a few months and in the meantime hopefully the likes of Mogwi will be back with the genuine war stories.
Agree, it is our esteemed Coporate posters that should be allowed to put their memories together in a chronological order and be questioned on the other factors that never got mentioned in certain publications.

[Dan Gerous]

MPN11
.I'm also trying to remember if a rapid weather change was a factor in the incident in Autumn 82 where an F-4 stab had bruising, or perhaps more correctly a cutting encounter, with the cable.


I heard the damaged F4 was the first one to land at Stanley. The RHAG was an American design, not the usual one the RAF used. Anyway the stop was a bit more abrupt than pilots may have been used to, and the the cable whipped up with the arrestor hook stricking the underside of the airframe. The aircraft spent the rest of its tour sitting on the pan near ATC, and its next flight was under a Chinook.

[Cat Techie]

I heard the damaged F4 was the first one to land at Stanley. The RHAG was an American design, not the usual one the RAF used. Anyway the stop was a bit more abrupt than pilots may have been used to, and the the cable whipped up with the arrestor hook stricking the underside of the airframe. The aircraft spent the rest of its tour sitting on the pan near ATC, and its next flight was under a Chinook.
Do your agree that this thread should refer to the timeline of the OP or not? seems not.

[Mogwi]

Mog, Ex-fast jets, all, fascinating stuff thank you.

A question about fuel management and sortie duration on the Harrier and Sea Harrier. Mog, what would have been your longest duration mission down South? 1.2 hours perhaps? What would be your loiter speed be on a CAP at 8,000 feet? I recognize the situation dictates the CAP altitude, but would fuel burn on a CAP at 8,000 feet be significantly more than say at 25K feet? Regarding the tragic G.B. hit the water incident, I have heard some rumor that it could have been a detonating dumb bomb (free wheeling bomb fuse). While we will likely never know the exact circumstances, has there been additional thought on that?

Ex fast jets- similar question, how much time could a GR.3 spend aloft? What was your longest GR.3 sortie during the conflict? (minus the rear numbing long ferry flights), Shortest?

Average CAP sortie was c1hr 20mins with several being 1hr 30. Cruise fuel flow was c100lbs/min at low level and half that at 20k. Fuel flow at endurance speed was somewhat less. Full grongly was about double that with a fuel load of 6600 lbs. Haven’t ever heard of a bomb fusing on the aeroplane and I don’t think that this was considered as a cause. The premature fusing of a KFF with would be highly improbable due to the requirement for the arming vane safety pin to be removed by the lanyard attached to pylon, which was clinched tightly to the pylon.

One problem we had with the VT(radar) fuses was “laddering” where subsequent bombs fused on the one ahead. A bit arse-clenching but fun for the rest of the formation to watch! Don’t think it ever happened on Corporate. That still required the arming lanyard to be pulled and the arming vane to operate for the required number of revolutions before the fuse armed.

Most probable cause of GB’s demise was judged to be disorientation. Ramp launch into a dark night, especially if the HUD dumped, could be pretty disorientating. Also, turning the nav lights off after launch (often done for a night mission) required you to look down under your left elbow to find the switch. This could be quite hazardous, especially if you were in a low level turn at the time! I was supposed to be flying that mission but take-off was delayed until after dark on the orders of the captain, so I was not qualified to go.

Mog

[MAINJAFAD]

Average CAP sortie was c1hr 20mins with several being 1hr 30. Cruise fuel flow was c100lbs/min at low level and half that at 20k. Fuel flow at endurance speed was somewhat less. Full grongly was about double that with a fuel load of 6600 lbs. Haven’t ever heard of a bomb fusing on the aeroplane and I don’t think that this was considered as a cause. The premature fusing of a KFF with would be highly improbable due to the requirement for the arming vane safety pin to be removed by the lanyard attached to pylon, which was clinched tightly to the pylon.

One problem we had with the VT(radar) fuses was “laddering” where subsequent bombs fused on the one ahead. A bit arse-clenching but fun for the rest of the formation to watch! Don’t think it ever happened on Corporate. That still required the arming lanyard to be pulled and the arming vane to operate for the required number of revolutions before the fuse armed.

Most probable cause of GB’s demise was judged to be disorientation. Ramp launch into a dark night, especially if the HUD dumped, could be pretty disorientating. Also, turning the nav lights off after launch (often done for a night mission) required you to look down under your left elbow to find the switch. This could be quite hazardous, especially if you were in a low level turn at the time! I was supposed to be flying that mission but take-off was delayed until after dark on the orders of the captain, so I was not qualified to go.

Mog

Morts has his own option on what happened to GB's jet on that night, covered in a talk he did to the Royal Aeronautical Society at RNAS Yeovilton just before lockdown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT_ff8XNLrE

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

MPN11

FWIW there was at least one similar incident to the one Fortissimo described back end of 82/early 83 (I think one of those involved used to post here)...I'm also trying to remember if a rapid weather change was a factor in the incident in Autumn 82 where an F-4 stab had bruising, or perhaps more correctly a cutting encounter, with the cable.

Anyhow apologies for getting ahead of those genuine fortieth anniversary tales, maybe we can return to the post war stuff when it's appropriate in a few months and in the meantime hopefully the likes of Mogwi will be back with the genuine war stories.

(FWIW I was present for the incident alluded to above; happy to recall at the appropriate time in recognition of the plea above.)

[TheWestCoast]

Mog - what's a KFF?

[Mogwi]

1000 lb free-fall (slick) as opposed to a KRT (high-drag retarded). Used with either a tail fuse (impact/delay) or a VT (radar) nose fuse for air burst. Tail fuse could be set between a few milliseconds (for penetration before bang) or up to several hours to excite the recipients and give them sleepless nights. The VT fuse was usually set for 50’ and produced a very satisfactory frag pattern against which a tin helmet was not proof!

VT fuses were usually backed up by a tail fuse to cover the rad-alt failure case.

Mog

[Mogwi]

The 25th started early with an attack on the missile trap north of the sound (Coventry and Broadsword). Luckily Coventry detected it early and splashed an A4 at long range with Sea Dart, disrupting the attack. On my way back from the early morning CAP, I saw a Pucara flying neat circles over Stanley Harbour and decided that it would be good for morale to splash it within sight of the town.

I left my #2 high to watch for missiles and dived steeply, with the nozzles in the braking stop to try to get a boresight lock, whilst keeping the speed low. On the first try, I couldn't get a lock and pulled out above 15k, as we knew that the Roland was good to 14K. On the second attempt, I got a good lock but he was heading straight for the cathedral and I thought that it might be counter-productive to make that a flaming datum. On the third attempt I got a bit of target fixation and stopped scanning the height. My #2 called a missile launch and I realised to my horror that I was descending rapidly through 14k with cock-all airspeed and now had 2 Rolands tracking my backside. I slammed to full power, selected 20 nozzle and 8 units ADD and prayed! As the nose came up through 12k, I selected the nozzles aft, tripped the limiters and selected water injection and stood on my tail with black smoke pouring out of the donk.

I must admit I felt a bit bloody silly, sitting there as the missiles homed onto me in slow motion, watching the altimeter climb oh so slowly. As I passed 14500, I was hugely relieved to see both missiles fall away from veeery close to me and resolved not to try that again!

By lunchtime, we still had not seen any sign of another major attack and were starting to hope that we were in the clear but around 1400, a flight of A4s attacked the missile trap at very low level from the northern coast. The CAP had been sent away to the east to investigate another contact and was told to stay clear. Coventry tried to engage with 4.5" and Sea Dart but in doing so, got upthreat of Broadsword, resulting in the T22 taking a bouncing bomb through the flight deck, whilst Coventry took 3 bombs straight into her, causing her to sink within 30 minutes.

Shortly after that, Hermes got ESM warning of an Exocet attack and turned downwind, firing chaff. This deflected the missiles but they locked onto Atlantic Conveyor and both struck home causing huge fires and the destruction of 4 x Wessex, 2 x Chinooks and a Lynx as well as a massive amount of ammunition and material. The Argentines had got their spectacular.

No 1(F) were also busy during the day attacking Stanley airfield, which was now a very heavily defended target and a number of the GR3s suffered small arms damage. Perhaps Ex-FJ would like to comment on those raids?

MOG

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1301x797/image_3eb076d3e0cb1816a3a5e9ac084afae23020f31a.png
Coventry shortly after the attack.

[ex-fast-jets]

Is it the 25th already.....??

We had done a few things with our 6 GR3's following the 21st landings - and we had already lost one to a missile attack on Day 1, rather than flying accidents/incidents which seemed to be causing problems for the SHARS.

Most of our airframes by then also had holes in them from small arms fire or shrapnel.

On the 25th, I flew 3 sorties, each throwing 3x1000lb bombs onto the airfield. I know of at least another 6x1000lb bombs that went there on my three sorties - possibly others - so at least 15x1000lb bombs that I know of that day.

No holes in the runway - but probably made life a little uncomfortable for the intruding temporary residents in the area. Might even have convinced the Argentinians not to place any valuable assets there.

Returned to HMS HERMES, also known as the RIRB, after Sortie 3 just after ATLANTIC CONVEYOR had been hit by one or two Exocets, and was on fire. Very bad loss for a number of reasons, but probably took the Exocets aimed at and intended for HERMES because ATLCON was nearby without any close in defence support.

Found the HERMES deck "cluttered' (RN description, not ours) with the presence of Chinook BN which had been airborne when ATLANTIC CONVEYOR was hit, and HERMES was the only deck which could take it. The crew were a little disheartened, because they were told that if it was not off the deck in the morning, it would be thrown overboard. We all had no doubt that the threat would be fulfilled, so we offered our ideas to the crew how to get into San Carlos without being shot down. They left in the morning, and managed to get there safely, and if there is one military capability which managed to achieve a significant effect on the outcome of the conflict, then BN and its crews - aircrew and ground crew - is certainly worthy of mention.

Other than that , the 25th was just another day.

[Wokkafans]

https://twitter.com/FlyNavyPhil/status/1529518789615828998?s=20&t=xQYC4hU4XsZtwKVEI2BsAw

[Cat Techie]

I certainly have a question for Ex-Fast-Jets on the GR3 nav kit. I do remember reading some of the comments in another book, but cannot remember if it was any use, no use at all or indifferent? Did you ever use the LRMTS at all?

[MAINJAFAD]

https://twitter.com/FlyNavyPhil/status/1529518789615828998?s=20&t=xQYC4hU4XsZtwKVEI2BsAw

I knew she had lost her bows, looks like the front half of the ship was blown off when the Ammo on board cooked off!!!

[Haraka]

Lt. Col.Ian Crooke passed away in Johannesburg during the night of 17/18 May.
" Crookie" might possibly be remembered by some on this forum as the SAS Major who was going to take a lead role in Op." Mikado" ( to take out the Super Etendards on the ground at Rio Grande. using SAS soldiers) .

[sandiego89]

Is it the 25th already.....??

......On the 25th, I flew 3 sorties, each throwing 3x1000lb bombs onto the airfield. I know of at least another 6x1000lb bombs that went there on my three sorties - possibly others - so at least 15x1000lb bombs that I know of that day......



What was the delivery profile/tactic for those deliveries ex-fast-jets? Above Roland/AAA altitude?

[ex-fast-jets]

Firstly, we didn't have a working INAS. There was a system called FINRAE (Ferranti Inertial Navigation Rapid Alignment Equipment). The INAS could not be aligned on a moving deck - FINRAE was supposed to help resolve this, but it didn't. The best we could get was close to useable heading info, which was better than the only alternative on-board device, the E2B which was close to useless. The sun was not a lot of help initially, because in the Southern Hemisphere, everything is the wrong way around until you get used to it.

So we had no inertially derived weapon aiming solutions, and had to do everything reversionary using manual fixed depressions.

I was involved in three different delivery profiles on the 25th..........

The first was two GR3s on the wings of a SHAR. It used its radar using an offset to pull up into a toss manoeuvre, out of range of AAA and/or SAMs. When its computed aimed bombs came off its wings, we manually released ours to match. Second was a level delivery from 20,000', which was above the AAA/SAM threats using manual depressions and a map to offer the best release point. The third was a manual toss profile - all alone - based on the best QWI derived guesses.

With hindsight, it would have been wise to have a monitor overhead above 20,000' in the safe zone above the airfield to spot fall of shot. But there wasn't one. Tasking on HERMES didn't even use foresight, and was very ad hoc and a bit "what shall we do today?" which wasn't really the best way to make effective use of the limited assets and weapons available.

[Cat Techie]

Firstly, we didn't have a working INAS. There was a system called FINRAE (Ferranti Inertial Navigation Rapid Alignment Equipment). The INAS could not be aligned on a moving deck - FINRAE was supposed to help resolve this, but it didn't. The best we could get was close to useable heading info, which was better than the only alternative on-board device, the E2B which was close to useless. The sun was not a lot of help initially, because in the Southern Hemisphere, everything is the wrong way around until you get used to it.

So we had no inertially derived weapon aiming solutions, and had to do everything reversionary using manual fixed depressions.

I was involved in three different delivery profiles on the 25th..........

The first was two GR3s on the wings of a SHAR. It used its radar using an offset to pull up into a toss manoeuvre, out of range of AAA and/or SAMs. When its computed aimed bombs came off its wings, we manually released ours to match. Second was a level delivery from 20,000', which was above the AAA/SAM threats using manual depressions and a map to offer the best release point. The third was a manual toss profile - all alone - based on the best QWI derived guesses.

With hindsight, it would have been wise to have a monitor overhead above 20,000' in the safe zone above the airfield to spot fall of shot. But there wasn't one. Tasking on HERMES didn't even use foresight, and was very ad hoc and a bit "what shall we do today?" which wasn't really the best way to make effective use of the limited assets and weapons available.
Thanks for that EFJ. Assume you did have revisionary HUD flight info at least? Assume the laser was as good as useless without a nav kit that had an idea where it was? Heard others talk about how a map and stopwatch was more useful than a E2B.

[Mogwi]

By the evening of the 25th, we had 5,500 troops ashore and the air raids had become more sporadic. The carrier group was now standing nearly 200 miles to the ENE of the is;lands, in order to keep away from the Exocet threat. This meant that we had very little time available for CAP given transit times of around 40 minutes.

On the 26th, the ground forces broke out of the beachhead and 2 Para headed south to take Goose Green. This was meant to be a 12-hour night attack but became a very hard-fought, bloody battle lasting 36 hours. 1(F) flew numerous sorties in support of the Paras in low cloudbase and poor visibility and on one of these, they lost another aircraft to AAA. The pilot ejected very low and fast and managed to hide in an abandoned farmhouse for several nights before being picked up by a Gazelle.

On the 28th, a flight of 3 x GR£s attacked the 35mm Oerlikon at Goose Green that was holding up the advance and silenced it with well-placed CBUs and rockets. Ex FJ will be able to give details of that but it broke the stalemate and allowed 2 Para to convince the Argentine garrison that they should surrender the following morning.

All I managed to do was to observe the fire-fight from high level, as I transited to CAP over West Falkland.

Mog

[ex-fast-jets]

The 28th was Goose Green Day. We had attacked the airfield with 4 GR3s on the 22nd, and had heavy AAA fired against us, but fortunately - or amazingly - all 4 got through without being hit. It was very distracting and just a little frightening. On (I think) the 27th, we had lost a GR3 to AAA at Goose Green. The pilot ejected and survived, but they had added that GR3 to the SHAR they had dropped earlier, killing the pilot. So we didn't like Goose Green.

I was sitting in the cockpit on deck waiting for a task for quite a long time. The only entertainment was HMS BROADSWORD, which was acting as our goalkeeper with its Sea Wolf missile system. Sailing very close abeam midship, it was a fine piece of seamanship to watch. The sea was quite rough, and we were taking water over the bow on HERMES. BROADSWORD was at times pretending to be a submarine as it plowed through some of the very large waves.

No task had come in, the weather was atrocious, and the light was going, so we were stood down and had just got into the space we were using as a briefing area when an Immediate task came in to support 2 Para who were close in to the settlement at Goose Green, but were being held back by AAA guns which were located to the East of the settlement and were being used in a direct fire mode against them. I had about 30 seconds to plot the target position and draw a quick line on the map which kept me clear of the high ground, and with an attack direction which avoided the settlement. Two of us went back onto the deck to our aircraft which were loaded with CBUs, and picked up a third GR3 armed with two pods of 2" rockets. We launched, did the usual high level transit to the Islands, and as we got close to Goose Green, the cloud was breaking up, so we could see the ground to let down. Also, having gone some 200 miles west from the carrier, the light was a little better, so down we went. The FAC gave us the same position for our target and cleared us through. The run in was over where 2 Para had been fighting, and it was exactly as you might imagine a battlefield to look - lots of smoke and a few fires. I ran in very low and dropped my CBUs where I had been told, and as I flew over, I spotted a gun just under my starboard wing. I called the aircraft behind me to drop/fire a little to the right of my fall of shot, which they just had time to do. We then went back to HERMES.

Chris Keeble who had taken over as CO after H Jones had been killed later said that we - his words - "wellied the target". At last we had finally done what we had been training to do for years - attack a valuable target and help the ground forces complete their battle.

[Mogwi]

I think that this was arguably the most effective attack of the war. I spoke to a Para who was pinned down on the slope of Darwin Hill by the 35mm and he said that it was impossible to move and there were bits of arms and legs flying through the air by the time XFJ and the team arrived. The CBUs effectively covered the whole peninsula that the gun was on and the 3” rockets finally obliterated it. The entire area was out of bounds for decades because of bomblet UXBs and when I returned in 2019, I found CBU carcasses on both the north and south shoreline - so well and truly wellied!

Apparently as the GR3s departed you could hear the sound of cheering from the Paras over the noise of the battle. BZ 1(F)!

Mog

[Archimedes]

From Julian Thompson at an RAF Historical Society some years ago, following a presentation by Sir Peter Squire on 1(F)'s work at Goose Green:
In his presentation, [Sir Peter] said that his squadron helped to turn the tide at Goose Green. I can tell him that it did turn the tide. 2PARA were stuck on a forward slope, in daylight, being engaged by 35mm AAA [Anti-Aircraft Artilllery] at 2,000 metres range, something to which they had absolutely no answer. Suddenly, like cavalry to the rescue out of the sky, came three Harriers which promptly took out those guns and turned the tide of the battle. There is a tale behind that too. We had previously been supported by CAS’s squadron on exercise in Norway and we had a very high opinion of what they could do. While we were on our way south, I turned to my primary FAC, who was an RAF Phantom back-seater on a ground tour, and told him that I needed No 1 Sqn. He said that I would never get them. I asked why and he replied that they simply couldn’t get there. Thank God you did Peter, because you really did pull the fat out of the fire for us…




And Chris Keeble:
The devastating violence created by the Harriers who attacked the outskirts of the settlement at last light clinched it. It was at that moment it seemed to me that the will of the defence began to break.

[Cat Techie]

I think that this was arguably the most effective attack of the war. I spoke to a Para who was pinned down on the slope of Darwin Hill by the 35mm and he said that it was impossible to move and there were bits of arms and legs flying through the air by the time XFJ and the team arrived. The CBUs effectively covered the whole peninsula that the gun was on and the 3” rockets finally obliterated it. The entire area was out of bounds for decades because of bomblet UXBs and when I returned in 2019, I found CBU carcasses on both the north and south shoreline - so well and truly wellied!

Apparently as the GR3s departed you could hear the sound of cheering from the Paras over the noise of the battle. BZ 1(F)!

Mog

Aircraft and aircrew used in the role that they trained to do as a snap CAS FEBA sortie, made even more impressive that their nav kit couldn't be set up, but using reversionary tactics. I have read the story from the prospective of another of EFJs formation members whom saw the CBU detonations and mentioned his correction calls. An amazing attack considering the obstacles.

[Ddraig Goch]

As the above go and buy "Goose Green" by Nigel Ely, flagged by Dagenham #58 in this thread, only 99p for Kindle version: https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=goose+green+nigel+ely&crid=3PSCCP2RH6TOG&sprefix=Goose+Green%2Caps%2C118&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_1_11

I have read many books about the conflict and I would say this is the best depiction of what it was like for those involved in the actual battle

[Ddraig Goch]

Not on the same subject but worth watching. From Cat Techie and the Buccaneer Vangelis ( Military Aviation ) thread go to his post #129 and watch 12 Sqd Buccaneers and as a bonus he gives a link to Langley South worth watching as things were down south pre Falklands war, sorry conflict

[ORAC]

May 28th 1982: The Argentine Air Force orders an attack against the British Hospital Ship SS Uganda.

Argentine pilot, Squadron Leader Mario Jorge Caffaratti, defies two direct orders to carry out the mission and finally tells his superiors:

"Why don't you go to hell?"

[Mogwi]

On 29th, it was fairly quiet in the air around the islands but the 15,000 ton tanker British Wye was attacked by an Argentine Herc about 800 mile east of Buenos Aires. A number of 1000lb bombs were dropped but only one hit the ship, bouncing off into the sea without exploding. Phew!

Invincible lost a SHAR during the afternoon when the ship manoeuvred hard after it had been unlashed. This caused it to slide over the side and the pilot ejected. That evening the captain was invited to dine in the Wardroom and was accosted by a very outspoken SHAR pilot who told him that “this is what happens if you treat the ship like a bloody speed-boat”. Said pilot was advised to go to bed!

Mog

[megan]

Did the SHAR go on the Captains chit? Can understand the pilot being somewhat upset, particularly to an unwelcome at any time parachute ride.

[Mogwi]

It’s OK, he was a QFI. 😊

[Shaft109]

Hello and a question from a lurker -

I was surprised at the relatively low fuel burn of the Harriers, and read of a few getting back on board with low fuel states.

What was the burn of the different Arg aircraft and given the distance were there any that ran out on the return ending in a fuel kill?

[Mogwi]

I would imagine that the A4 burnt about the same as the SHAR (I am sure that someone on here will know) but they had the advantage of a C-130 tanker either inbound or homeward bound - or both. The Daggers/Mirages didn’t have probes and their burn would increase 10-fold if they went into burner.

We normally aimed to RTB with 800lbs of gas, with up to 300 being unusable depending on attitude (aircraft not personal!). This gave around 10 minutes of “safe” endurance in case of problems. Diversion was not an option, except to the other carrier, until later in the conflict when the 650’ strip became available at Port San Carlos.

As far as I know, no Argentine aircraft ran out of fuel but I do know that at least one was towed back by the C-130, with fuel being pumped in the front at the same speed that it was pouring out of the holes! More of that later….

Mog

[NutLoose]

Why didn't they shoot down the 707 looking for the fleet early on when it detected it?

[Navaleye]

In a word - escalation. It was outside the TEZ and the decision was made to warn it off. Later it was attacked and I believe Cardiff came close to nabbing one

[ExAscoteer2]

That's why Nimrod was fitted with the AIM-9L.

[Mogwi]

The 30th saw the loss of another GR3 to ground fire. The pilot was hit by small arms fire during an attack and developed a large fuel leak resulting in an ejection into the cold South Atlantic some 40 miles short of the ship. Luckily, he was spotted by a Lynx which vectored a Sea King onto him very quickly and he was picked up and returned to Hermes a bit battered and bloody but otherwise OK. The pilot who had been shot down at Goose Green was also returned to us; cue several beers!

The day also saw the final Exocet attack - although we didn’t know this at the time. Two Super Es and four Skyhawks attacked from the south aiming to take out one of the carriers. In fact no ships were hit and two Skyhawks and the missile were shot down.

That evening I received news that cheered me up no end; the GR3 pilot that I thought might have been on one of the helicopters that I destroyed a week earlier was seen boarding a Herc in Stanley. Massive relief!

Ashore that night, BN, the Chinook that had survived Atlantic Conveyor, bounced off the water in a snow storm. Amazingly, the only damage was the loss of the Co-pilot’s door!

Mog

[ex-fast-jets]

About now, the Harrier strip was being laid at San Carlos by the Royal Engineers. Great folk - we were used to their strips in Germany on exercise, and their amazing efforts on our behalf.

It was decided by someone that what was needed was for two GR3 pilots to be at San Carlos, and the concept was for two GR3s to fly from the carriers which were well to the east of the islands, sit on the ground ready to respond to the need for a quick response to ground force task requests. The strip could provide fuel, but no weapons, so once weapons were expended, then the aircraft needed to return to the carrier to be bombed up again.

So two of us were sent ashore. We transferred to the LSL Sir BEDEVERE. The vessel had BCRs on board - what's a BCR I asked. Battle Casualty Replacement was the answer. In other words, they would fill whatever was left of the shoes of someone killed or badly wounded if they had the necessary skills. Great for morale being a BCR, I thought. But for us - I had a cabin with freshly laundered linen and a pillow. Sheer luxury. And we had an evening meal that was amazing, provided by a superb catering staff.

When we got ashore, we went to HMS FEARLESS which was being used as the Command Centre for the ground forces, and then went by helo to San Carlos. Health and Safety had either not been invented then, or it had been thrown overboard on the way down. The helo crew had clearly considered doors to be a hazard - they could jam or delay folk getting onto or off the helo - so they had removed them. Seats? Another potential hazard or delay, where weapons or backpacks could get caught - so they had been removed. Seatbelts? Clearly a trip hazard, so they had been removed. So the cabin of the helo was basically bare. So we sat on the floor, looking out of where the doors would have been, and made the short flight from FEARLESS to where the strip was being laid at very - I mean very - low level. The helo stopped momentarily to let us off. Well, I think it stopped, but when I turned to smile at the driver and give him a thumbs up, he had already gone!

We went to the Chinook BN crew and they told us how to find somewhere to stay for the night. We spent several nights there which included an air attack warning and a ground attack warning which required us to jump into a muddy slit trench while we waited to see what happened. Fortunately, nothing did.

After a few flip-flop flights to and from the carrier, it was decided that the tasking system either didn't exist or could not cope - plus the limited space for aircraft at the strip was better used by SHARs which could make use of it to extend their CAP time. So we were told to return to the carrier.

For the return trip, we went on a P&O ferry - I think it was the ELK. We left for a nighttime transit, and we were sitting at a table with the Captain having dinner. The steward apologised that he was short of menu cards, so would we mind sharing! The Captain then apologised and said he needed to leave the table because he had heard that there might be a land-based Exocet launcher on Pebble Island which we were due to pass close to. The SAS had done their business on the Pucaras there, but an Exocet launcher was something different. I then asked a question that I should not have asked - ignorance can be bliss - What have you got onboard? Oh, several tons of artillery shells - but we had a lot more when we came in. Clearly not the place to be in the event of an Exocet hit. It wasn't a problem - but these Merchant Marine folk did not get the recognition that they deserved in my opinion.

When we got back to HERMES, it seemed like a tranquil and safe haven - so we then got on with the rest of the business from there, having spent a few days on the islands we were trying to liberate.

[Mogwi]

The last day of May was nearly disastrous for 1(F). A SHAR from Invincible, returning from CAP, reported swept-wind aircraft at Stanley airport. The proverbial hit the fan and the captain of Hermes demanded an immediate attack, without waiting for confirmation. Two GR3s were sent to attack with 2” rockets and we sent two SHARs to support them with loft 1000lbers. I was returning from CAP, passing only a couple of miles south, when the attack started and had a grandstand view.

The airburst bombs were very spectacular and I watched, mesmerised, as the tracer started to cone onto the approaching GR3s. It seemed impossible that they could survive the weight of fire but they kept on through and departed flat out, to the east. No fighters were seen and CO 1(F) was understandably livid. By the end of the day, we had just one GR3 serviceable, the rest suffering from various degrees of battle damage, ranging from small holes to an engine change.

Changing an engine at sea in peacetime is a tricky operation; first the aircraft has to be secured onto trestles, the wing gear retracted and the wing removed. The engine can then be changed but has very small tolerances and requires a steady ship for a long period of time - not possible in wartime. The whole process is then reversed. Unfortunately, the spare GR3 engine had gone down with Atlantic Conveyor and it was some time before another could be sourced.

On this day, we also tried to use our newly-arrived LGB kits on our 1000lb free fall bombs. With no ground-based designators, we tried lashing with a GR3 whilst a SHAR lofted a bomb in. The weapon did not home properly and we discovered later that the designator was incompatible with the guidance on the bomb. Merde!

Mog

[Davef68]

As the above go and buy "Goose Green" by Nigel Ely, flagged by Dagenham #58 in this thread, only 99p for Kindle version: https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=goose+green+nigel+ely&crid=3PSCCP2RH6TOG&sprefix=Goose+Green%2Caps%2C118&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_1_11

I have read many books about the conflict and I would say this is the best depiction of what it was like for those involved in the actual battle

Three Days in June by James O'Connell is written in a similar style, documenting the 3 Para battle for Mount Longdon.. It also has contributions from the Argentinian veterans, which adds to the narrative.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08DHL36N8

[ex-fast-jets]

I flew 3 sorties 30/31 May as the GR3 attempting to designate with our LRMTS for LGBs - before we found out that it wasn't going to work!!

One was with a SHAR throwing the LGBs, and two were with GR3s dropping them in a more gentlemanly fashion.

Apart from the SHAR tossing them, I flew in at some 35,000' a distance behind the dropper. At the appropriate time, I went into a 30 deg dive from 35k or higher, and switched on the LRMTS. I had to stop designating and recover above 20,000' to keep out of the shark infested custard below. Unfortunately, our cunning plan didn't work for technical reasons, which we now know, but didn't at the time.

To reduce my downward speed in a 30 deg dive over the airfield, and to increase the time I was able to fire the LRMTS, I put the nozzles into the braking stop, and gently increased the engine rpm. Great idea, except for one occasion - in my enthusiasm to designate for as long as possible, I got very close to my minimum height for recovery, and increased the engine rpm to escape quickly. The aircraft started to vibrate and feel a bit squirly, and I thought "Oh dear, not a good time or place to have an engine failure". Then I remembered to put the nozzles aft, and all worked as it was supposed to. Sorry RR for thinking for a brief moment that your wonderful engine had gone wrong - it hadn't, and it was all my fault!

[SLXOwft]

Reading ex-fast-jets' account of his flight from Fearless prompted me to remember the vital role of rotary wing participants in the events of 28 May; I think the citations in the Gazette for the pilots of XT629 and XP609 need no expansion.


The QUEEN has been graciously pleased to approve the Posthu-
mous award of the Distinguished Flying Cross to the undermen-
tioned in recognition of gallant and distinguished service during
the operations in the South Atlantic:

Distinguished Flying Cross

Lieutenant Richard James NUNN, Royal Marines
On Friday 28th May 1982 the 2nd Battalion The Parachute
Regiment was engaged in fierce fighting to take enemy positions
in the area of Port Darwin. From dawn, Lieutenant Nunn, a Scout
helicopter pilot, had supported the Battalion flying vital ammuni-
tion forward to the front line and had evacuated casualties heedless
of enemy ground fire.

After flying continuously for three and a half hours, it was learnt
that the Commanding Officer and others in Battalion Tactical
Headquarters forward had been severely wounded. Lieutenant
Nunn was tasked to evacuated these casualties collecting the Batta-
lion Second in Command en route. However, five minutes after
take off, suddenly and without prior warning, two Pucara aircraft
appeared from the South and attacked the Scout with rockets and
cannon fire. By great flying skill Lieutenant Nunn evaded the first
attack but on the second his aircraft was hit and destroyed. Lieu-
tenant Nunn was killed instantly and his aircrewman Sergeant
Belcher was grieviously wounded.

Lieutenant Nunn displayed exceptional courage, flying skill and
complete devotion to duty in the face of the enemy. His achieve-
ments that day, supporting the Battalion, were exceptional and
were instrumental in the eventual victory.

The QUEEN has been graciously pleased to approve the award of
the Distinguished Flying Cross to the undermentioned in recogni-
tion of gallantry and distinguished service during operations in
the South Atlantic:

Distinguished Flying Cross

Captain Jeffrey Peter NIBLETT, Royal Marines
During the attack on Darwin and Goose Green, Captain Niblett
led a section of two Scout helicopters, supplying ammunition and
evacuating casualties for two days, often in the thick of battle
and under enemy fire. During one mission both Scouts were
attacked by Argentine Pucara aircraft. The helicopters evaded the
first attack but one was subsequently shot down. However, with
quite exceptional flying skill and superb teamwork with his air-
crewman, Captain Niblett evaded three further cannon and rocket
attacks, safely completing the mission. He then resolutely con-
tinued support and casualty evacuation operations until well after
dark.

His courage, leadership and flying skills were also demonstrated
in an incident when he evacuated a seriously wounded Marine
from Mount Challenger, flying in dark and misty conditions over
most hazardous terrain. Captain Niblett proved himself an out-
standing Flight Commander and pilot. The superb support that
his flight as a whole gave to the landing force reflects his exemplary
and dedicated service.
12838 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 8TH OCTOBER 1982

[Mogwi]

1st June and we had now been at war for a month. Everyone was tired but we had reached a plateau and were coping OK. We were also able to get some sleep overnight, with just one aircraft at 20 minutes readiness unless we had intel of a raid. I was now sharing the captain’s cabin with XFJ and a couple of other Harrier pilots - the captain didn’t know!

Shortly before 1000, CO 801 QFE his #2 were vectored towards a fleeting contact north of the sound. It turned out to be a Herc and despite being very short of gas, he chased it west, launching one AIM9L out of range before scoring a hit with his second between # 3 and 4 engines. He then fired 240 x 30mm into the rear fuselage before it dropped into the sea. It was a bitter-sweet victory as we were all aware of the horrors that the last few minutes must have held for the guys in the cockpit.

In the afternoon, another ex-RAF(G) exchange pilot was shot down by the same Roland that had a go at me a few days earlier. He managed to eject and ended up off the coast in his dinghy with a dodgy PLB. It was 8 hours before he was picked up and was saved by the 6v light on his dinghy canopy and the perseverance of the Sea King crew.

During the afternoon two GR3 replacements arrived after an 8-hour flight from Ascension, supported by a Victor tanker. They were an extremely welcome addition to the GA team, despite the fact that the captain dismissed it as a “Crab publicity stunt”.

Mog

[downsizer]

They were an extremely welcome addition to the GA team, despite the fact that the captain dismissed it as a “Crab publicity stunt”.

Mog

Sounds like he was a bit of a tool.

[MPN11]

Sounds like he was a bit of a tool.
I have gained that impression from many bits I have read, here and elsewhere. How sad.

[ex-fast-jets]

So, around about now...................

We had taken 6 GR3s down on ATLANTIC CONVEYOR. Three had been shot down, one had crashed at San Carlos - never understood why - so we had two left. Both had holes of various sizes and in various places.

We then got 4 replacements flown down from Ascension. Let's consider those flights. Some 9 hours using Victor Tankers to refuel them, with no realistic diversion options, all over the sea, for the four relatively young and inexperienced pilots to do their very first landing on a carrier, in what was, effectively, a war zone, and in very rough seas. Plus, before landing, they had to jettison their ferry tanks to enable them to do a vertical landing. So, no stress then!!

They were met by a SHAR who brought them into the boat. But well done them!!

Some - maybe all, I can't remember - of the 4 replacement aircraft had been modified a little bit. The starboard gun had been removed, and part of the then new Tornado EW pod had been modified and inserted in the pod. Great idea. This gave a very limited EW capability against some of the radars which were of concern. Clearly, in the very limited time available for the modification, there had been no comprehensive trials done in the UK to establish their effectiveness. So we got a photocopy single A-4 size piece of paper telling us what this EW thing could, or might, do. Remember, this was before the internet or mobile phones had been invented, so we were operating at the leading edge of the available technology. One concern was that it might beacon rather than jam Argentinian radars. The other was that it might worry our own shipboard radars that we were attacking, rather than coming home. So its use was carefully managed/restricted. The big issue for me, was that the last sentence of the single sheet of A-4 instructions ended with "Caution: The equipment might overheat and catch fire if used for longer than 2 minutes".

This made me unhappy, because when I was doing an attack, I was desperately looking for difficult to see targets, in a hostile environment, and flying at very low levels. I simply did not have the mental capacity to add the extra task of worrying about switching this kit on, and then timing how long it had been on at a fairly crucial - for me - moment. If I left it on too long, and it caught fire, then I would have done for the Argentinians what they were trying to do to me, and caught fire. So I was reluctant to use it. It was only later that I eventually found Page 2 to the instructions which finished the "Caution: The equipment might overheat and catch fire if used for longer than 2 minutes" with the end of the sentence which read "if used on the ground without cooling air." The one thing we were not short of in the South Atlantic then when flying at 450 knots+ was cooling air. So it wasn't a problem, but I didn't know it at the time.

But everyone was trying to help us, and there was some very good effort expended in very short time on our behalf.

But the replacement 4 GR3s were much needed, and their pilots were also very welcome to the fold.

[Mogwi]

Gun-pod jammer named with true British humour, the Blue Eric!

We SHAR guys were extremely grateful that the GR3s had taken over the mud-moving rôle from us and acutely aware that they were not only taking massive flak from the enemy, they were also being poorly served by the Senior Service. This was to some extent due to bigotry in high places but mostly due to the loss of knowledge of how to effectively task ground attack missions. Something that was extremely frustrating for those used to the well-practised NATO tasking and reporting system in Germany.

Mog

[Vonrichthoffen]

Sounds like he was a bit of a tool.
He was !!! One thing both light and dark blue agreed on.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

There is a related thread running on ARRSE that followed the Channel Four documentary in late March:

Falklands War - The Untold Story (https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/falklands-war-the-untold-story.309156/)

It is about the conflict in general but aviation aspects are given the attention they deserve - the Sea Harrier vs Argentine aircraft, The Super Eterndard/Exocet attacks, Bomb Ally, Ground Attack, helicopter operations including ASW from the carriers, putting SF ashore, and the Nimrod and Black Buck missions

Mog - I wish we had someone like you on there to shoot down some of the nonsense spouted about the Sea Harrier (not just down South, but in its NATO role - such as claiming that it could not intercept of shadow Bears and the like) and carrier aviation in general - and not just on that thread.

This seems like a good place to post these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aEYkZjTBag

From IWM:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Lw8eWE7aQ8

An old BBC Horizon programme:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bLUSLbZb7o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDYx84DdJ-w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZzMe7RXVfU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZas4rLSGQg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O_vkRFQwRI

[Mogwi]

Forgot to mention a little episode on the 1st June. I was about to taxy onto the centreline for launch, when the ship turned hard to stbd, rather like Invincible had done earlier and I found myself sliding rapidly towards the edge of the flight deck with the wheels locked. I took the braking stop and heaved on a bunch of power and just managed to avoid going for an early bath, even though I lost sight of the deck under the nose. When the heart-rate had calmed a bit, I lined up and did my bottom -end accel check before dropping the nozzles to 20 degrees to check the duct pressure. To my alarm, I discovered that they would not move!

After much head-shaking and thumbs down indications, I was martialled into Fly3 and shut down. The Air Motor Servo Unit driveshaft had snapped and had I not used the nozzles to stop my slide, I would have got airborne and found that I could no longer lower the nozzles. A 130 kt conventional landing on the carrier without any wires would have not been fun. Another Phew!!
2nd and 3rd were foggy - Hooray!!

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/799x533/_00011_60fc871afe558ee2e65dba877d207dc25b25ad83.jpg
Lovely fog!

[mopardave]

The way Mog and XFJ are "tag teaming" this is superb!

[megan]

Mogwi, what's with the ships aggressive maneuvering when flight operations are in progress?

[Mogwi]

Mogwi, what's with the ships aggressive maneuvering when flight operations are in progress?

Turning onto the DFC at the last possible minute in a submarine threat environment - and then manoeuvring again asap after launch.

Mog

[Widger]

Mogwi, what's with the ships aggressive maneuvering when flight operations are in progress?
Warfare Officers treating the CVS/Hermes like a Destroyer and throwing it around. Best thing they ever did was to remove the SeaDart on CVS to take away any sense of confusion that the PWO/AAWO were on an aviation platform. There is a club for those who have gone for a swim off a ship, much like the Martin Baker tie. Its called the Goldfish Club and worthy of a separate thread.

[Cat Techie]

Sounds like he was a bit of a tool.
Peter Squire was told of the Captain's priorities of conflict by one of the naval staff officers on his arrival on the Carrier. Captain's enemy priorities were 1/. The Admiral 2/. The crew 3/. The Argies. As recorded by some one that was a lot less diplomatic than Sir Peter was!

[pmills575]

To get a real insight into the issues experienced by 1 Squadron on Hermes the book:RAF Harrier Ground Attackby Jerry Pook

[ex-fast-jets]

So, after Goose Green, a relatively quiet period for a few days - for some!

While MOG was enjoying the fog at sea - and, no doubt, relaxing in the wardroom and drinking from the necks of horses............

I was ashore at San Carlos as part of the Advance Party activating the Harrier Strip that the Royal Engineers were building - and I was also bravely defending San Carlos with my trusty 9mm pistol.

Looking at my logbook, tomorrow (5 Jun) I must have been back on board HERMES, and for the next several days we seem to have spent our time softening up the high ground to the west of Stanley ready for the ground forces' attacks.

I did several attacks on targets on Two Sisters, Sapper Hill and Mt Longdon, and a few others to the north of Stanley. Plus a couple of out and back flights to the now established Harrier Strip at San Carlos.

Nothing of any significance to offer you - my final contribution will come in about a week.

[sandiego89]

So, after Goose Green, a relatively quiet period for a few days - for some!

While MOG was enjoying the fog at sea - and, no doubt, relaxing in the wardroom and drinking from the necks of horses............

I was ashore at San Carlos as part of the Advance Party activating the Harrier Strip that the Royal Engineers were building - and I was also bravely defending San Carlos with my trusty 9mm pistol.

Looking at my logbook, tomorrow (5 Jun) I must have been back on board HERMES, and for the next several days we seem to have spent our time softening up the high ground to the west of Stanley ready for the ground forces' attacks.

I did several attacks on targets on Two Sisters, Sapper Hill and Mt Longdon, and a few others to the north of Stanley. Plus a couple of out and back flights to the now established Harrier Strip at San Carlos.

Nothing of any significance to offer you - my final contribution will come in about a week.

Would like to hear more about the specifics of operating from the strip at San Carlos. Could the GR.3 or Sea Harrier be filled up full of fuel and do a STO from the matt strip, or was a reduced load required? What bump stop for the nozzles? I assume bladders of fuel were brought in by helo. How long would it take to refuel?

[Mogwi]

Yes, I will admit to downing a few 2/3 HNs during the foggy days! On 3rd June we were passed an intercept of an Argentine signal saying that a Harrier strip was being built in San Carlos. This confused us, as we thought that all the PSA1 planking had gone down with Atlantic Conveyor - but imagine our surprise when we were told the following day, that the strip was ready for use! I gave the SHAR pilots a quick brief on strip ops and launched on the 5th to try it out.

We flew 1hr 40mins on CAP during the afternoon, for less than one hour transit time - a huge improvement over our normal ratio of 80mins transit for 10mins on CAP. We didn't have any trade but we did RTB with 2 upland geese in the back hatch. These (together with many more) became the main course for our victory dinner - Goose Galtieri!

The 850' strip allowed us to launch with full internal fuel (5000lbs), which gave us one hour endurance and the CAP stations were only a couple of minutes away. We landed on the pad at the start of the strip and then taxied round to the pillow tanks to refuel/rearm. The turnround, without weapons, took about 5 minutes - amazing how quickly it can be done when there is an incentive!

The geese were a very real hazard, as they loved the warmth of the tin strip and paid no attention to arm-waving or even kicking. 7.62 worked though.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/602x466/sheathbill_5b182a1f36e627726fd7887bccb5e760eb215c94.jpg
HMS Sheathbill

[MPN11]

The Geese also liked Stanley's metallic perches. My BCU had a hell of a job getting the bu66ers to ... GO AWAY. I found two pistols with bird-scaring cartridges quite effective. Round 1 = general fluttering, and a few airborne. Round 2 into the crowd. They didn't like Round 2 ... for a while, until they came back to warm their feet again!

[SLXOwft]

... There is a club for those who have gone for a swim off a ship, much like the Martin Baker tie. Its called the Goldfish Club and worthy of a separate thread.

***Slight thread drift***
The point of departure is irrelevant, it's landing in the oggin that counts; for instance members of the crew of XW666 were invited to join following their close encounter with the Moray Firth, membership also includes civilians who have had to ditch. Regarding Op Corporate, I am not going to conjecture whether Messrs Glover, Broadwater, Mortimer et al, were happy to be members of a club for which a certain former CO 809 (and veteran of the SA Army and SAAF) qualified for membership of three times between 7 July and 12 October 1956 while serving with 897 NAS.

I found it very interesting listening to ex-fast-jets' former CO, the late ACM Sir Peter Squire, talking about 1(F) in the Falklands on reels 6 and 7 of his contribution to the IWM oral history https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80025717
(Including comments on said ex-CO 809's distorted views of the RAF)

For those interested, a bit of light reading for after the conclusion of this thread https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/research/RAF-Historical-Society-Journals/Journal-30-Seminar-The-Falklands-Campaign.pdf

Now back to those who were actually there...

[NutLoose]

I knew Jimmy the author on the web and would recommend his book

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Three-Days-June-Minute-Minute/dp/1913183610/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2AOO9GFMZC89L&keywords=three+days+in+june&qid=1654466763&s=books&sprefix=Three+days+in+june%2Cstripbooks%2C67&sr=1-1



Born in Bootle, Merseyside, where he still lives, James O'Connell enlisted in the Parachute Regiment in 1979.

In April 1982, after a posting in Cold War Germany and a tour of Northern Ireland, the call came to take part in the British Task Force to re-capture the Falklands. During the attack on Mount Longdon, James was shot in the face. A bullet passed through his nose, destroying his right eye, cheekbone and front teeth. Though he survived, five years of reconstructive surgery followed, and James left the army in 1985 as a result of his injuries.

Following the conflict, transition to civilian life was a difficult and James suffered from what was likely undiagnosed PTSD. He eventually married his long-term girlfriend Maureen, who he met in 1981, and they have two sons.

Since 2014, James has helped with the campaign to get a posthumous gallantry medal for Cpl Stewart McLaughlin and was instrumental in getting a memorial erected on Mount Longdon on the exact location where Sgt Ian McKay was killed winning a posthumous Victoria Cross, and he has travelled to the Falklands several times in order to write this book.

[sandiego89]

Yes, I will admit to downing a few 2/3 HNs during the foggy days! On 3rd June we were passed an intercept of an Argentine signal saying that a Harrier strip was being built in San Carlos. This confused us, as we thought that all the PSA1 planking had gone down with Atlantic Conveyor - but imagine our surprise when we were told the following day, that the strip was ready for use! I gave the SHAR pilots a quick brief on strip ops and launched on the 5th to try it out.

We flew 1hr 40mins on CAP during the afternoon, for less than one hour transit time - a huge improvement over our normal ratio of 80mins transit for 10mins on CAP. We didn't have any trade but we did RTB with 2 upland geese in the back hatch. These (together with many more) became the main course for our victory dinner - Goose Galtieri!

The 850' strip allowed us to launch with full internal fuel (5000lbs), which gave us one hour endurance and the CAP stations were only a couple of minutes away. We landed on the pad at the start of the strip and then taxied round to the pillow tanks to refuel/rearm. The turnround, without weapons, took about 5 minutes - amazing how quickly it can be done when there is an incentive!

The geese were a very real hazard, as they loved the warmth of the tin strip and paid no attention to arm-waving or even kicking. 7.62 worked though.

HMS Sheathbill

Thank you for the reply Mog with the insight on operating from the plank strip.

[Kiltrash]

On Wiki today there's a account of a Friendly Fire incident where HMS Cardiff fired on a Army Gazelle

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_British_Army_Gazelle_friendly_fire_incident

Do we have any though or opinions from those that were down there ?

[Widger]

Thanks so much for the recommendation to read Goose Green by Nigel Ely. I am staggered by the bravery and good fortune of 2 Para and those that supported them. So many stories, some of which made me laugh out load alongside some utter tragedy. The Gazelle incident is described in the book and was a night recce that was supposed to be flown by Sgt Kilinski of 656 Sqn AAC in a Scout.

[Marcantilan]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x400/1654537973_b349dfe4cf2f182d309f9ded010c0152c4704e1a.jpeg

[MAINJAFAD]

Thanks so much for the recommendation to read Goose Green by Nigel Ely. I am staggered by the bravery and good fortune of 2 Para and those that supported them. So many stories, some of which made me laugh out load alongside some utter tragedy. The Gazelle incident is described in the book and was a night recce that was supposed to be flown by Sgt Kilinski of 656 Sqn AAC in a Scout.

The mission of the Gazelle was to take a couple of Royal Signals guys up to Mount Pleasant to install / Repair a Radio Rebroadcast Relay station located there.Because the 5 Brigade SOP for helicopter operations said that they didn't have to inform anybody else that they were flying a mission as part of a brigade only tasking, they did not inform anybody else, like HQ 3 Commando Brigade or the land forces HQ, AOA and CV Task Groups. Thus Cardiff was totally unaware that any friendly aircraft were going to be operating in that area at that time.

Summary of the BOI below.

http://www.ukserials.com/pdflosses/maas_19820606_xx377.pdf

[SLXOwft]

I wasn't there so don't feel qualified to comment, furthest south I got during the conflict was Daedalus. I had intended to repost this earlier today and have now overcome my hesitancy.

Volans et videns
39 years on - lest we forget

c. 060357Z Jun 82 Gazelle AH1 XX377 was destroyed with the loss of all onboard by a Sea Dart which had been fired from HMS Cardiff under the assumption friendlies would be using IFF. ROE permitted engagement 'without the constraint of visual identification if this was precluded by cloud or light conditions'

Crew
Staff Sergeant Christopher Griffin
Lance Corporal Simon Cockton

Passengers
Major Michael Forge R Sigs (OC 205 Signal Squadron)
Staff Sergeant John Baker R Sigs

Causes

Poor Communication between Services
IFF turned off because Rapier was not able to cope with IFF emissions (at that time)
Assumption


I have no personal connection with the incident but have always thought Blue on Blue fatalities are the hardest for families to cope with.

BOI Report (https://web.archive.org/web/20081125053424/http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/EF248AAE-5B25-4CB4-BE90-EE096980354B/0/boi_loss_gazellexx377.pdf)

I also think I should repost cosmiccomet's comment.

Those tragedies have happened to both sides.
Argentine 35 mm Oerlikon GDF air defense shot down 2 Argentine Air Force aircraft.
The first one was on May 1st. A Mirage IIIEA was trying to land in Port Stanley/Puerto Argentino airport, but there was a red alert at that moment, and it was shot down. The pilot, Captain Gustavo Argentino Garcia Cuerva, couldn’t eject.
The second one was on May 12th, an MD A-4B flight was escaping after attacking British ships and overflew Goose Green/Pradera del Ganso, and First Lieutenant Fausto Gavazzi was taken by the air defenses, he couldn´t eject either.
He was shot down by an Argentine Army air defense, another 35 mm Oerlikon.

(MAINJAFAD posted while constructing mine)

[Mogwi]

The morning of the 8th was a slow start for me but turned into one of the most hectic days of my life. I was not on the flypro before lunch as I was programmed to complete my night qualification, with my first ever night deck landing. Instead, I jumped into the right-hand seat of one of the Wessex that survived the Conveyor sinking and had a very relaxing 2 1/2 hours delivering mail and spares around the fleet. At lunchtime, I flew an uneventful CAP mission but was unable to land at HMS Sheathbill because OC 1(F) had managed to spread a GR3 across the strip. Luckily, he walked away and the jet was soon stripped for spares.

Shortly before dusk, two of us were scrambled to CAP over the area of Bluff Cove, where two LSTs had been badly hit by Skyhawks an hour or so earlier. Whilst there, I noticed a landing craft coming around from Choiseul Sound and kept a wary eye on it from 10,000' for some 45 mins, until we had a couple of minutes fuel left to Bingo. That is when I saw 4 Skyhawks running in to attack.

I rolled into a screaming dive, slammed to full power, tripped the limiters, pulled the flaps up and bunted to zero G in order to accelerate as quickly as possible. With the speed climbing through 650 kts, (30 kts above VNE!!) I watched helplessly as the landing craft was attacked by two of the formation of four A4s. I dropped in behind one of the rear aircraft and sent a Sidewinder straight up his jet pipe from min range. The result was spectacular and instantaneous but the launch of the missile caused me to roll uncontrollably and rapidly to the right, ending up nearly inverted at around 50' above the sea at around 670 kts.

I acquired the next A4 and launched the second AIM9L which hit him on the 90 and blew everything behind the cockpit to smithereens. The pilot ejected from the doomed cockpit and passed very close to my head as his 'chute opened. I then opened fire with 30mm at the next aircraft but my gunsight had dumped and I had no means of aiming at the guy who was heading west, only feet above the sea. He broke left and flew through my bullets but I didn't see any hits. (In 2019 I revisited the crash site and found a 30mm HE hole in the port flap!) At this stage my #2 got a visual on him and launched a max-range shot from behind me as I zoom climbed vertically out of his line of fire. The missile hit him after a very long flight-time and I saw the flash of the warhead hit its own reflection in the water. A second later the A4 impacted the dunes with a huge fireball.

This all took around 30 seconds and as I levelled at 40k above Stanley, I realised that I was now desperately short of gas - and faced with my first night deck landing! I called Hermes and told them we were returning on the bones of our arse for gas and they came up to 32 kts and steamed towards us. At 90 miles, I closed the throttle and started my descent from 42k with the ship still heading towards us. At 20K I entered thick, turbulent cloud and told the D not to bother with the glidepath as I would be arriving VERY high. At 5 miles, the ship reversed its course to the DFC. At 3 miles and 1500', I was still in thick cloud when the low-level lights started to flash, indication 500lbs of fuel remaining. At 2 miles, I saw a glimmer of lights ahead and at 800', I saw the ship - in heavy rain. I slammed the nozzles into the braking stop selected full power, dropped the gear and flap and heaved the nose up to come to the hover abeam the island before doing the swiftest sideways transition and vertical landing of my life.

On shut-down I had 300lbs of fuel on the gauges. This was enough for 90 seconds in the hover - but up to 300 can be unusable!! Luckily, they kept the bar open for us to celebrate what was the last engagement of the war - and the last time that an RAF pilot shot down an enemy aircraft.

Today, I received a WhatsApp message from the pilot of the 4th Skyhawk. We have been firm friends for years now and in constant touch. In 2019, we erected a small memorial at the site of the wreckage of the third Skyhawk.

Swing the lamp!

Mog

[Ken Scott]

I’m quite breathless after reading that even though I knew the story from my your book! Awesome stuff Mog, it must bring you out in a cold sweat just to think about it!

[uxb99]

I'm interested in why the Argentinian fighters were not very interested in engaging the Sea Harriers in a war of attrition? The Argentine bombers seemed to have no issues engaging our ships. Was a shame (for them) they didn't have better support.
Were there any reasons why?

[unmanned_droid]

Awesome thread, thanks everyone for taking the time to record it here even though its also in books elsewhere.

[Cat Techie]

The morning of the 8th was a slow start for me but turned into one of the most hectic days of my life. I was not on the flypro before lunch as I was programmed to complete my night qualification, with my first ever night deck landing. Instead, I jumped into the right-hand seat of one of the Wessex that survived the Conveyor sinking and had a very relaxing 2 1/2 hours delivering mail and spares around the fleet. At lunchtime, I flew an uneventful CAP mission but was unable to land at HMS Sheathbill because OC 1(F) had managed to spread a GR3 across the strip. Luckily, he walked away and the jet was soon stripped for spares.

Shortly before dusk, two of us were scrambled to CAP over the area of Bluff Cove, where two LSTs had been badly hit by Skyhawks an hour or so earlier. Whilst there, I noticed a landing craft coming around from Choiseul Sound and kept a wary eye on it from 10,000' for some 45 mins, until we had a couple of minutes fuel left to Bingo. That is when I saw 4 Skyhawks running in to attack.

I rolled into a screaming dive, slammed to full power, tripped the limiters, pulled the flaps up and bunted to zero G in order to accelerate as quickly as possible. With the speed climbing through 650 kts, (30 kts above VNE!!) I watched helplessly as the landing craft was attacked by two of the formation of four A4s. I dropped in behind one of the rear aircraft and sent a Sidewinder straight up his jet pipe from min range. The result was spectacular and instantaneous but the launch of the missile caused me to roll uncontrollably and rapidly to the right, ending up nearly inverted at around 50' above the sea at around 670 kts.

I acquired the next A4 and launched the second AIM9L which hit him on the 90 and blew everything behind the cockpit to smithereens. The pilot ejected from the doomed cockpit and passed very close to my head as his 'chute opened. I then opened fire with 30mm at the next aircraft but my gunsight had dumped and I had no means of aiming at the guy who was heading west, only feet above the sea. He broke left and flew through my bullets but I didn't see any hits. (In 2019 I revisited the crash site and found a 30mm HE hole in the port flap!) At this stage my #2 got a visual on him and launched a max-range shot from behind me as I zoom climbed vertically out of his line of fire. The missile hit him after a very long flight-time and I saw the flash of the warhead hit its own reflection in the water. A second later the A4 impacted the dunes with a huge fireball.

This all took around 30 seconds and as I levelled at 40k above Stanley, I realised that I was now desperately short of gas - and faced with my first night deck landing! I called Hermes and told them we were returning on the bones of our arse for gas and they came up to 32 kts and steamed towards us. At 90 miles, I closed the throttle and started my descent from 42k with the ship still heading towards us. At 20K I entered thick, turbulent cloud and told the D not to bother with the glidepath as I would be arriving VERY high. At 5 miles, the ship reversed its course to the DFC. At 3 miles and 1500', I was still in thick cloud when the low-level lights started to flash, indication 500lbs of fuel remaining. At 2 miles, I saw a glimmer of lights ahead and at 800', I saw the ship - in heavy rain. I slammed the nozzles into the braking stop selected full power, dropped the gear and flap and heaved the nose up to come to the hover abeam the island before doing the swiftest sideways transition and vertical landing of my life.

On shut-down I had 300lbs of fuel on the gauges. This was enough for 90 seconds in the hover - but up to 300 can be unusable!! Luckily, they kept the bar open for us to celebrate what was the last engagement of the war - and the last time that an RAF pilot shot down an enemy aircraft.

Today, I received a WhatsApp message from the pilot of the 4th Skyhawk. We have been firm friends for years now and in constant touch. In 2019, we erected a small memorial at the site of the wreckage of the third Skyhawk.

Swing the lamp!

Mog

It is wonderful to hear the words of a man that remembers what he did a day a long time ago. Suspect it is the photographic memory that the best have. I was doing an O level exam that day. I cannot remember which one. I can remember hearing that evening of the LSTs being bombed. Someone will correct me me if it wasn't that awful MoD spokesman that mentioned it.

[MAINJAFAD]

I'm interested in why the Argentinian fighters were not very interested in engaging the Sea Harriers in a war of attrition? The Argentine bombers seemed to have no issues engaging our ships. Was a shame (for them) they didn't have better support.
Were there any reasons why?

Main issue was lack of endurance over the Islands for Combat by the main fighter types (Mirage IIIEA and Dagger) due to the types not being equipped with IFR.

Second issue was capability of the AAM's in the Inventory.

All of the Mirage IIIEA's (Total fleet of 16) could carry a R530 SARH / IR homing missile on the centreline, but only 7 of the fleet (delivered in 1980) could carry the R550 Magic on wing pylons. The R530 was basically a bomber killer, not a dogfight missile. R550 was akin to a AIM-9G. According to Argentinian sources, neither type was fired when the Mirage III's tried to mix it with SHAR on 1st May 82 , The aircraft that did get home were very low on fuel and at the end of the day, the Magic capable fleet was down to 5 aircraft thanks to 801 NAS and the Argentinian Army.

The Daggers could carry 2 early model Shafrirs, which in the words of one senior officer of the Dagger Grupo were next to useless. Some high level CAP and escort missions were flown by the unit on 1st May 82 which resulted in one Dagger being shot down by 800 NAS

The Navy A-4's were AIM-9B Sidewinder capable, but the fleet were suffering from major problems due to US arms embargos, so they may have had nothing to shoot bar life ex missiles.

Super Etandards should have been R550 Magic capable, but like the Exocet, the Argentinians may have not got around to integrating them with aircraft when things kicked off.

Another Issue I do remember seeing mentioned somewhere was a lack of Drop Tanks for the Mirages and Daggers. Had they banged them off at the rate they did on 1st May 1982 for any length of time to try and mix it with the Sea Harriers, the force would have been unable to reach the Falklands after a few days of further action.

[KiloB]

The SAAF certainly had less than perfect service from the R550. Lack of ‘G’ tolerance and premature detonation in the jet plume were the most significant.

[622]

The morning of the 8th was a slow start for me but turned into one of the most hectic days of my life. I was not on the flypro before lunch as I was programmed to complete my night qualification, with my first ever night deck landing. Instead, I jumped into the right-hand seat of one of the Wessex that survived the Conveyor sinking and had a very relaxing 2 1/2 hours delivering mail and spares around the fleet. At lunchtime,

Mog

I guess you had to be current on 2 types (SHAR and Wessex) to do this.....was this just a Falklands requirement or was it /is it common to fly two very differant types of A/C.
Sorry for the drift ....but just a question from a curious observer!

[Mogwi]

I guess you had to be current on 2 types (SHAR and Wessex) to do this.....was this just a Falklands requirement or was it /is it common to fly two very differant types of A/C.
Sorry for the drift ....but just a question from a curious observer!

The answer to your question is that it was a) unique and b) barely legal!

The quailed pilot was certainly there all the time but I was handling the aircraft - in fact I think he had a pretty good kip during the flight. He had been flying non-stop since the loss of Conveyor and was completely knackered. I was pretty tired but at least I had had a good night’s sleep (in the captains cabin!). If the captain had known about either my flying the Wessex or sleeping in his cabin, he would have had an epileptic fit. (Other seizures are available).

I had not flown a Wessex full time for 9 years but I had a couple of trips in 1978, so I could remember how to open the cockpit door. The briefing went something like “You sit in the right seat and if you manage to get it airborne OK, I’ll go to sleep”. I had to keep,my smoked visor down though, so that Wings and the captain couldn’t ID me.

Mog

[622]

The answer to your question is that it was a) unique and b) barely legal!

The quailed pilot was certainly there all the time but I was handling the aircraft - in fact I think he had a pretty good kip during the flight. He had been flying non-stop since the loss of Conveyor and was completely knackered. I was pretty tired but at least I had had a good night’s sleep (in the captains cabin!). If the captain had known about either my flying the Wessex or sleeping in his cabin, he would have had an epileptic fit. (Other seizures are available).

I had not flown a Wessex full time for 9 years but I had a couple of trips in 1978, so I could remember how to open the cockpit door. The briefing went something like “You sit in the right seat and if you manage to get it airborne OK, I’ll go to sleep”. I had to keep,my smoked visor down though, so that Wings and the captain couldn’t ID me.

Mog

Fabulous, and thanks for clarifying.

[ex-fast-jets]

It wasn't just MOG who did some extra helo flying..........

All Harrier pilots have some helo training in their pre-Harrier training. And good fun it was too!!

I had that, and I had also spent 3 years on exchange with the USN 78-81, and I had flown the UH-1 and the AH-1 during my time with them. Before the pedants climb aboard, they were USMC helos, not USN.

I didn't have any formal helo qualifications at that time, but during the convoy transit from Ascension to the Falklands, we spent many boring days at sea.

The loggies - bless them - had philosophised that it was better to get things afloat and heading south, and worry about whether they were in the right place later, rather than try to delay things to get everything where it should be.

So we had a young Wessex pilot who spent every day while we floated south flying all the daylight hours available with underslung loads moving stuff from A to B to C - and probably back to A again!

To relieve my boredom, I asked if I could fly with him - he gratefully accepted as it gave him someone to chat to to relieve his boredom - but he was well happy when he discovered that I knew how to fly helos, even though I had no formal qualifications.

So I spent many happy hours between Ascension and the Falklands flying his Wessex, while he relaxed and had some unofficial time off.

[GlobalNav]

I plan to visit IWM Duxford soon and expect to find some interesting Falklands War displays there.

[SLXOwft]

(...)
Today, I received a WhatsApp message from the pilot of the 4th Skyhawk. We have been firm friends for years now and in constant touch. In 2019, we erected a small memorial at the site of the wreckage of the third Skyhawk.

Swing the lamp!

Mog

Mog,
1) Your mentioning Pipi Sánchez got me thinking, first thankfully his guns jammed, and second it is a shame we can't get some contributions to this thread from the 'other side'. I have been reading some accounts in Spanish including about the OC 3 Esc. de Caza y Ataque, Rodolfo Castro Fox, who insisted on flying missions with his men even though he was official grounded due to injuries sustained in an ejection, he couldn't open or close the canopy without assistance and had to use his wrong hand to operate the undercarriage lever, Pablo Carballo who, although his aircraft been damaged by a Sea Cat, decided not to eject and made it home safely, and José 'Cacha' Arca who, having ejected from his A-4Q (which had been hit 10 times by SHAR cannon fire after attacking Ardent) as he couldn't lower his undercart to land at Stanley, was fished out of the sea using a skid by a Huey pilot.

2) Was it clear to you at the time that the Argentinian TPS-43 radar operators were directing raids away from any SHARs (and presubably GR3s) they detected?

[ex-fast-jets]

Was it clear to you at the time that the Argentinian TPS-43 radar operators were directing raids away from any SHARs (and presubably GR3s) they detected?

Trust me - they were not ignoring us GR3s operating at low level, unlike the SHARs who were mostly above the threat level..

They locked onto us which was not good for us.

Our Radar warning was pretty basic - but it told us when they had us.

Didn't like it.

[Mogwi]

Mog,
1) Your mentioning Pipi Sánchez got me thinking, first thankfully his guns jammed, and second it is a shame we can't get some contributions to this thread from the 'other side'. I have been reading some accounts in Spanish including about the OC 3 Esc. de Caza y Ataque, Rodolfo Castro Fox, who insisted on flying missions with his men even though he was official grounded due to injuries sustained in an ejection, he couldn't open or close the canopy without assistance and had to use his wrong hand to operate the undercarriage lever, Pablo Carballo who, although his aircraft been damaged by a Sea Cat, decided not to eject and made it home safely, and José 'Cacha' Arca who, having ejected from his A-4Q (which had been hit 10 times by SHAR cannon fire after attacking Ardent) as he couldn't lower his undercart to land at Stanley, was fished out of the sea using a skid by a Huey pilot.

2) Was it clear to you at the time that the Argentinian TPS-43 radar operators were directing raids away from any SHARs (and presubably GR3s) they detected?

I believe it wasn’t so much that he couldn’t get his gear down - more that the port main gear wasn’t there any more! And yes, we were generally aware that the TPS 43 was vectoring guys away from us but there was cockle we could do about that without exposing ourselves to the Stanley defences. It was also positioned in the outskirts of the town and was not a good target for dumb bombs.

Mog

[kration]

Main issue was lack of endurance over the Islands for Combat by the main fighter types (Mirage IIIEA and Dagger) due to the types not being equipped with IFR.

Second issue was capability of the AAM's in the Inventory.

All of the Mirage IIIEA's (Total fleet of 16) could carry a R530 SARH / IR homing missile on the centreline, but only 7 of the fleet (delivered in 1980) could carry the R550 Magic on wing pylons. The R530 was basically a bomber killer, not a dogfight missile. R550 was akin to a AIM-9G. According to Argentinian sources, neither type was fired when the Mirage III's tried to mix it with SHAR on 1st May 82 , The aircraft that did get home were very low on fuel and at the end of the day, the Magic capable fleet was down to 5 aircraft thanks to 801 NAS and the Argentinian Army.

The Daggers could carry 2 early model Shafrirs, which in the words of one senior officer of the Dagger Grupo were next to useless. Some high level CAP and escort missions were flown by the unit on 1st May 82 which resulted in one Dagger being shot down by 800 NAS

The Navy A-4's were AIM-9B Sidewinder capable, but the fleet were suffering from major problems due to US arms embargos, so they may have had nothing to shoot bar life ex missiles.

Super Etandards should have been R550 Magic capable, but like the Exocet, the Argentinians may have not got around to integrating them with aircraft when things kicked off.

Another Issue I do remember seeing mentioned somewhere was a lack of Drop Tanks for the Mirages and Daggers. Had they banged them off at the rate they did on 1st May 1982 for any length of time to try and mix it with the Sea Harriers, the force would have been unable to reach the Falklands after a few days of further action.

Thank you for both the original question and the detailed reply. The lack of engagement in taking on the Sea Harriers has always puzzled me, and that post clearly explains it.

[Mogwi]

Well done XFJ, I had no idea that you also did some Wessex flying!

Mog

[Jhieminga]

I plan to visit IWM Duxford soon and expect to find some interesting Falklands War displays there.
The Solway Aviation Museum (https://www.solway-aviation-museum.co.uk/) at Carlisle organised a number of talks about the Falklands War, spread over a couple of Saturdays, and have an interesting display available until the end of this year. One of the stories from that display will end up on my site (https://www.vc10.net/History/Falklands_40years.html) once the commemorations at the museum have ended. You'll have to go to Carlisle if you can't wait until then ;)

[pulse1]

And I believe that the Boscombe Museum at Old Sarum has the very same Shar that Mogwi was flying on that fateful day.

[ex-fast-jets]

I shall be away this weekend, so let me offer my final contribution to this story............

We were getting close to what we now know was the end. Ground forces had taken the high ground to the west and north of Stanley - the only bit left was Sapper Hill which was more of a pimple than high ground, but it was being used for artillery to increase their range.

On 14 June I was launched with 2 LGBs to attack Artillery on Sapper Hill which would be designated by an FAC. I took the brief in the safe air above 20,000' over Stanley, and was starting to let down to run in to loft the bombs against Sapper Hill when the FAC told me to stop and hold off. Some 5 minutes later he told me not to attack, as the white flags were up and troops were streaming back into Stanley. Ground Forces had gone "guns tight" and the feeling was that Argentinian forces had given in.

I headed back to HERMES and decided that I could do a vertical landing with the bombs on if I burnt off fuel to not much left. I didn't want to jettison the bombs into the sea, as considerable effort had been taken to get the LGB kits to us, and I didn't know if they might be needed later that day, or the next. So I jettisoned fuel and then raced around at low level burning off fuel to get down to hover weight, and landed on HERMES. As I got out of the cockpit, I was met by a very agitated RN Lt Cdr who told me that the Captain wanted to see me.

I went to the Bridge, and the Captain proceeded to bollock me for landing on his boat with my bombs on. I explained why and he stopped bollocking me and told me to "wait there". He disappeared and returned shortly afterwards with Adm Woodward and told me to "tell him what you have just told me". I did - so I was effectively the carrier pigeon that gave Woodward the news that he wanted that it was all over.

Of importance to me - I only got half a bollocking.

[Mogwi]

And I believe that the Boscombe Museum at Old Sarum has the very same Shar that Mogwi was flying on that fateful day.

That one is XZ 457, which I flew a couple of times. 8th June, I was flying ZA 177 which ended up in a Dorset field courtesy of a student on 899 - GRRRR!!

Mog

[Mogwi]

The last few days of the conflict were quiet for the SHARs but not so for the GR3s. They continued to put their pink bits in harm's way right up to the end, as XFJ has said. On the 10th, I flew as #2 to my ex-boss on 899 and we found a large airborne contact over Choiseul Sound. It was lurking in a line squall and we sat on either side of the weather, waiting for it to poke its nose out - but it never did. Still don't know if it was a bogey or a will-of-the-wisp.

On the 10th, one GR3 took a 7.62 in the bottom of the windscreen. Luckily it was armoured glass and that saved the pilot. It flew for several months afterwards with an aluminium (aluminum for our cousins) plate stuck over the damage. Also on the 10th, another GR3 on an armed recce mission came back from the mountains with "Nil seen" but this was in the F95. It hasn't been enlarged, so you can see he was lower than a snake's belly, which probably saved him.

Mog

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x538/sam7_07f8227308a41903f57ca4fa21ad9fc5509adeab.jpg
OOPS!!

[Professor Plum]

Mogwi, ex fj,

Thank you for posting!

amazing.

[mopardave]

Mogwi, ex fj,

Thank you for posting!

amazing.
Absolutely.......riveting reading! Thank you gents.

[Mogwi]

On the 11th, I was inbound to CAP off the north coast of East Falkland over a 20k overcast. Before letting down into the murk, we shackled to have a good check behind us and I saw two contrails descending in to the cloud tops about 5 mile behind us. The controller insisted that there were no friendlies in the area, so we turned after them and soon had them on radar about 5k below us, in a gentle turn. We accelerated after the contacts and soon spotted two aircraft between layers ahead of us. I couldn’t ID them positively, so called my #2 to go weapons tight until we could.

At about a mile and a half, with the missile locked and chirping, I realised that they were a pair of GR3s and called “Knock it off, friendlies!”. A couple of seconds later there was a frantic call on guard from the 1 Sqn pilots to the same effect. Useful debrief in the bar later on; they had been scrambled a few minutes after we had launched.

That afternoon, OC 1(F) was hit by small arms fire that entered the cockpit below his right foot and exited above his left foot without touching any pink bits. It did, however, destroy a large electrical loom carrying many of the weapon-aiming circuits and took quite a while to rectify.

On the 12th, the pilot who was hit on the windscreen took more damage over Sapper a hill with XFJ. The shrapnel damaged the reaction-control ducting and as he approached the hover on RTB, this started a fire and bits started falling off the aircraft. Flyco told him he was on fire and suggested he eject. He demurred and did a very smart VL and was immediately surrounded by the fire crew. The aircraft suffered quite a lot of damage and played no further part in the conflict.

In the early hours of the 12th, HMS Glamorgan got a bit too close to Stanley as they left the gun-line and copped a wheel-barrow launched Exocet that had been flow in by Herc a few days earlier. The missile hit the hangar and destroyed their Wessex, leaving 13 dead and 17 injured. A very unfortunate incident.

Mog

[dagenham]

indeed Mog, Popeye Mccallum , he was an aircraft tech and sadly in the hangar. His mum and dad lived next door to my grand parents and he baby sat me a few times when I was more barking than dagenham.

I will have a glass tonight and remember him



On the 11th, I was in to CAP off the north coast of East Falkland over a 20k overcast. Before letting down into the murk, we shackled to have a good check behind us and I saw two contrails descending in to the cloud tops about 5 mile behind us. The controller insisted that there were no friendlies in the area, so we turned after them and soon had them on radar about 5k below us, in a gentle turn. We accelerated after the contacts and soon spotted two aircraft between layers ahead of us. I couldn’t ID them positively, so called my #2 to go weapons tight until we could.

At about a mile and a half, with the missile locked and chirping, I realised that they were a pair of GR3s and called “Knock it off, friendlies!”. A couple of seconds later there was a frantic call on guard from the 1 Sqn pilots to the same effect. Useful debrief in the bar later on; they had been scrambled a few minutes after we had launched.

That afternoon, OC 1(F) was hit by small arms fire that entered the cockpit below his right foot and exited above his left foot without touching any pink bits. It did, however, destroy a large electrical loom carrying many of the weapon-aiming circuits and took quite a while to rectify.

On the 12th, the pilot who was hit on the windscreen took more damage over Sapper a hill with XFJ. The shrapnel damaged the reaction-control ducting and as he approached the hover on RTB, this started a fire and bits started falling off the aircraft. Flyco told him he was on fire and suggested he eject. He demurred and did a very smart VL and was immediately surrounded by the fire crew. The aircraft suffered quite a lot of damage and played no further part in the conflict.

In the early hours of the 12th, HMS Glamorgan got a bit too close to Stanley as they left the gun-line and copped a wheel-barrow launched Exocet that had been flow in by Herc a few days earlier. The missile hit the hangar and destroyed their Wessex, leaving 13 dead and 17 injured. A very unfortunate incident.

Mog

[Professor Plum]

Mog, ex fj,

Was sids strip named after Syd M?

Asking purely out of interest. Syd M was a UAS QFI when I was at Uni on a UAS.

Regards.

[Mogwi]

The very same!

[The Oberon]

Watched a BBC2 programme about Goose Green last night. All blood and guts from the RM and 2 PARA. No mention at all about Harriers taking out AAA guns, typical.

[dagenham]

With respect I don’t think that was the point. It was the personal story of the men involved not a blow by blow account of the war.

it was one of the best programmes I have seen and the bravery and openness of those involved is to be applauded.


Watched a BBC2 programme about Goose Green last night. All blood and guts from the RM and 2 PARA. No mention at all about Harriers taking out AAA guns, typical.

[Maxibon]

With respect I don’t think that was the point. It was the personal story of the men involved not a blow by blow account of the war.

it was one of the best programmes I have seen and the bravery and openness of those involved is to be applauded.
Dagenham, couldn't agree more. Unbelievably moving and the BBC going back to doing something actually worthy of the licence fee.

[NutLoose]

Yes agreed, some especially telling and revealing tales, especially the frank and revealing thoughts of the then young Para officer, I have to admit I was mega impressed with how they disarmed the Marine pondering suicide and the fantastic outcome.

[Kiltrash]

The afore mentioned BBC programme should be made to be a must watch for the horrors of war, warts and all. But why oh why did it take 40 years to produce.

[AndySmith]

The last few days of the conflict were quiet for the SHARs but not so for the GR3s. They continued to put their pink bits in harm's way right up to the end, as XFJ has said. On the 10th, I flew as #2 to my ex-boss on 899 and we found a large airborne contact over Choiseul Sound. It was lurking in a line squall and we sat on either side of the weather, waiting for it to poke its nose out - but it never did. Still don't know if it was a bogey or a will-of-the-wisp.

On the 10th, one GR3 took a 7.62 in the bottom of the windscreen. Luckily it was armoured glass and that saved the pilot. It flew for several months afterwards with an aluminium (aluminum for our cousins) plate stuck over the damage. Also on the 10th, another GR3 on an armed recce mission came back from the mountains with "Nil seen" but this was in the F95. It hasn't been enlarged, so you can see he was lower than a snake's belly, which probably saved him.

Mog

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x538/sam7_07f8227308a41903f57ca4fa21ad9fc5509adeab.jpg
OOPS!!
Mogs, what time was the mysterious bogey over Chosiel - I'll have a dig into that one and see what I can find from Arg sources.

[Cat Techie]

The afore mentioned BBC programme should be made to be a must watch for the horrors of war, warts and all. But why oh why did it take 40 years to produce.
Because those that are involved in such conflicts really do not want to talk about it due to the horrors they saw. Takes brave men to come out of the shells they build to defend them from those memories. Of course Lawrence's story was dramatised by Colin Firth years ago, so that story was out. Was a very powerful documentary of young men facing the hell of warfare.

[Mogwi]

On the 13th it was quiet again in the air but carnage on the ground as our troops fought their way over the mountains west of Stanley with grenade and bayonet. Two SHARs had to land on the back of Fearless and Intrepid when the Chinook lifted the strip at Port San Carlos shortly before they were due to land. They had a quick suck of gas before hopping over to Sheathbill for a top-up when the damage had been sorted. They arrived back with a case of wine; a thank you from the Intrepid wardroom.

No1(F) eventually managed to sort the LGBs and the OC took out a headquarters position on Mount London, whilst his #2 turned a 155 gun into a swimming pool. They pulled up from behind the hills to deliver the weapons and unfortunately had a lot of 7.62 sent in their direction by our own troops. Luckily they were bad shots! HMS Cardiff, however was rather better and splashed a Canberra with Sea Dart overnight.

By the morning of the 14th, the hills had been taken and Argentine troops were streaming back to Stanley and shortly afterwards the white flags appeared, That was quite a surreal feeling. We didn’t know whether that was the end of the conflict or if we would still face an air threat but it soon became clear that it was over and we were going home.

I still had one task to fly though. On the 17th, I was tasked to take a pair of SHARs to within 130 miles of Sant Cruz, to “verify the position of a hospital ship”. I couldn’t believe that I was being sent on such a pointless and foolhardy mission but when I pointed out the risks, I was told to shut up and launch. So launch we did and flew radar silent with out rad alts, dopplers and transponders silent to 50 miles from the target. One quick sweep of the radar for the required confirmation and we high-tailed it back to Sheathbill as fast as the fuel would let us.

That was the end of the conflict and Hermes headed north. Once clear of the area, we had a SHAR celebratory dinner which featured Goose Galtieri as the main course, followed by broccoli ice cream! We knew how to live!

Mog

_ . . _ _ . _ .

[SLXOwft]

Didn't know 800 NAS ever operated from HMS Fife.:E

My thanks to all too, expecially Mog and ex-fast-jets.

[sandiego89]

That one is XZ 457, which I flew a couple of times. 8th June, I was flying ZA 177 which ended up in a Dorset field courtesy of a student on 899 - GRRRR!!

Mog

Mog, do you recall any real quirks between the airframes that went South? Some more troublesome than others? I seem to recall one airframe from 801 that was a real standout for good serviceability (004 perhaps?)

Fast jets, same with the Gr3s. Any standouts among the airframes?

[Mogwi]

Don’t remember any particular probs although we were carrying quite a few snags. Basically, if it flew and the weapons system worked, we launched! On the first Stanley raid, CO 800 tried to hand the lead to #3 because his NAVHARS had dumped on launch. #3 replied that his had as well, so he tried to give me the lead - but my kit had dumped too, so he pressed on as leader.

As I recall, we had around 97% serviceability overall. Not bad - but then we did have the best maintainers in the world! It was the only time in my life that I have jumped into a jet, pulled the pins and launched - and felt absolutely happy that the BMITW had done their job and wouldn’t let me down.

My personal record from fast asleep to airborne was just short of 3 minutes. Got some good quality kip at Alert 5, by jamming my elbows in the canopy spray tubes and forming a geometric lock with my fists on the helmet.

Kids today ……….

Mog

[Mogwi]

There were no heroes here
Amongst the men who tramped through
Rutted, quaking moor
Or crawled, cat-silent,
Over skittering scree
To prove the way.

No heroes fought the blazing fires
Which sucked the very blood from
Ship and man alike.
Or braved knife cold
Without a thought
To save a life.

No heroes they, but ones who loved
Sweet life and children's laugh,
And dreamt of home
When war allowed.
They were but men.



https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1678x948/shar_dinner_9jul82_62881051686104901587edeacfbe5bf7cf5f9ba8. jpg
SHAR dinner 9th July 1982

[Saintsman]

I don’t know about ‘best maintainers in the world’ as we were all trained to the same standards, but I’ll take nothing away from them and they certainly operated in conditions that were far more challenging than I ever experienced. There was still a job to be done back at home, often with no spares because they were all reserved for, or sent down south.

But it’s not just aircrew and engineers, there are a lot of unsung hero’s behind the scenes that are just as important, as are their tales. They need to be commended too, as all together, they put on a hell of a show.

[NutLoose]

This guy is covering the air war from the other side, Herc bomber etc

https://twitter.com/LatinMilitaryAv


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/713x577/image_75d8aaab5ab3561d937e8fecb8e725e158dad8f9.jpeg

[NutLoose]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/642x366/image_270269b7ac0f04f0fa251f5961f1351cac542329.jpeg

lots of stuff ive never seen before on that link above, Argentinian Sea King landing in Stanley, lots of others Such as their Lynx too.
A lot are taken by the Argentinians themselves such as the airliners carrying in troops to Stanley

[SLXOwft]

I think it only right that we should acknowledge all those of the air arms of both countries who lost their lives in the theatre of operations, 90 members of the aviation community. I searched in vain online for an English language list of the Argentinian dead - thanks to Marcantilian for pointing me at the FAA memorial webpages and confirming the names I had for the COAN dead. (and reminding me of the correct abbreviation). The list is ordered by date and by surname grouped by country. Most if not all the Argentinian dead were posthumously promoted but I have given their rank at death, I have omitted decorations as I don't know those given to the Argentinians. I am not sure about all the units or in the case of one or two RN ratings that their rates are correct. If there are strong objections to this from those who were there I will consider deleting this post. (Apologies for the gash format - I tried in vain to post a table)

Date - Name - Service - Aircraft or Place - Unit

23/04/1982 POACMN Kevin Stuart 'Ben' Casey RN ZA311 Sea King HC.4 846 NAS/HMS Hermes

01/05/1982 1er. Ten José Leónidas Ardiles FAA C-433 Dagger Grupo 6 de Caza

01/05/1982 Sol. c/63 Héctor Ramón Bordón FAA Stanley Airport/BAM Malvinas IX Brigada Aérea Comodoro Rivadavia

01/05/1982 C1o Andrés Luis Brashich FAA Goose Green/BAM Condor - ?Grupo 3 de Ataque
(Medevaced but died of wounds onboard Chinook H-91)

01/05/1982 C1o Miguel Angel Carrizo FAA Goose Green/BAM Condor ?Grupo 3 de Ataque

01/05/1982 Ten. Eduardo Jorge Raúl De Ibanez FAA B-110 Canberra B.62 Grupo 2 de Bombardeo

01/05/1982 CP Mario Duarte FAA Goose Green/BAM Condor ?Grupo 3 de Ataque

01/05/1982 Sol. c/63 Guillermo Ubaldo García FAA Stanley Airport/BAM Malvinas) I Brigada Aérea, Compañía de Policía Militar

01/05/1982 Cap. Gustavo Argentino García Cuerva FAA I-019 Mirage IIIEA Grupo 8 de Caza

01/05/1982 1er. Ten. Mario Hipólito González FAA B-110 Canberra B.62 Grupo 2 de Bombardeo

01/05/1982 Ten. Daniel Antionio Jukic FAA A-527 Pucara Grupo 3 de Ataque

01/05/1982 C1o José Alberto Maldonado FAA Goose Green/BAM Condor ?Grupo 3 de Ataque

01/05/1982 C1o Agustín Hugo Montaño FAA Goose Green/BAM Condor ?Grupo 3 de Ataque
(Medevaced by Chinook H-91 died on arrival at Port Stanley/Puerto Argentino Hospital)

01/05/1982 C1o José Luis Peralta FAA Goose Green/BAM Condor ?Grupo 3 de Ataque

01/05/1982 CP Juan Antonio Rodríguez FAA Goose Green/BAM Condor ?Grupo 3 de Ataque

02/05/1982 Suboficial Mayor Ramón Barrios COAN ARA General Belgrano 1ra Escuadrilla Aeronaval de Helicópteros

02/05/1982 Suboficial Segundo Roberto Segundo Lobo COAN ARA General Belgrano 1ra Escuadrilla Aeronaval de Helicópteros

03/05/1982 Teniente de Fragata Carlos Benítez COAN 0764 (4-A-113) MB-339A 1ra Escuadrilla Aeronaval de Ataque

04/05/1982 Lt. Nicholas 'Nick' Taylor RN XZ450 Sea Harrier FRS.1 800 NAS/HMS Hermes

06/05/1982 Lt William Alan 'Al' Curtis RN XZ453 Sea Harrier FRS.1 801 NAS/HMS Invincible

06/05/1982 Lt Cdr John Edward 'E-J' Eyton-Jones RN XZ452 Sea Harrier FRS.1 801 (899) NAS/HMS Invincible

09/05/1982 1er. Ten. Juan Carlos Buschaiazzo CAE AE-505 Puma CAB601/Compania de Asalto A

09/05/1982 Ten. Jorge Eduardo Casco FAA C-313 A-4C Grupo 4 de Caza

09/05/1982 Sargento Mecánico de Aviácion Horacio Di Motta. CAE AE-505 Puma CAB601/Compania de Asalto A

09/05/1982 Ten. Jorge Ricardo Farías FAA C-303 A-4C Grupo 4 de Caza

09/05/1982 1er. Ten. Roberto Fiorito CAE AE-505 Puma CAB601/Compania de Asalto A

10/05/1982 C. Héctor Hugo Varás FAA ARA Isla de los Estados Servicio de Transporte de la VI Brigada Aérea

12/05/1982 1er. Ten. Manuel Oscar Bustos FAA C-246 A-4B Grupo 5 de Caza

12/05/1982 1er. Ten. Fausto Gavazzi FAA C-248 A-4B Grupo 5 de Caza

12/05/1982 Ten. Jorge Rubén Ibarlucea FAA C-208 A-4B Grupo 5 de Caza

12/05/1982 Ten. Mario Víctor Nívoli FAA C-206 A-4B Grupo 5 de Caza

19/05/1982 Flt Lt Garth Walter 'Gunner' Hawkins RAF ZA294 Sea King HC.4 Attached D Sqn 22 SAS

19/05/1982 Cpl Michael David 'Doc' Love RM ZA294 Sea King HC.4 846 NAS/HMS Hermes - HMS Intrepid

21/05/1982 Ten. Pedro Ignacio Bean FAA C-428 Dagger Grupo 6 de Caza

21/05/1982 Teniente de Fragata Marcelo Gustavo Márquez COAN 0667 (3-A-314) A-4Q 3ra Escuadrilla Aeronaval de Caza y Ataque

21/05/1982 Ten. Nestor Edgardo Lopez FAA C-309 A-4C Grupo 4 de Caza

21/05/1982 1er. Ten. Daniel Fernado Manzotti FAA C-325 A-4C Grupo 4 de Caza

21/05/1982 Sgt. Andrew Peter Evans RM XX411 Gazelle AH.1 3 CBAS

21/05/1982 Lt. Kenneth David Francis RM XX402 Gazelle AH.1 3 CBAS

21/05/1982 L-Cpl. Brett Patrick Giffen RM XX402 Gazelle AH.1 3 CBAS

21/05/1982 POAEM(M) Peter Ian Herbert Brouard RN HMS Ardent 815 NAS (207 Flt)/HMS Ardent

21/05/1982 AEM(?)1 Alan Joseph 'Mac' McCauley RN HMS Ardent 815 NAS (207 Flt)/HMS Ardent

21/05/1982 Lt. Brian 'Spud' Murphy RN HMS Ardent 815 NAS (207 Flt)/HMS Ardent

21/05/1982 Lt. Cdr John Murray Sefton RN HMS Ardent 815 NAS (207 Flt)/HMS Ardent

23/05/1982 Lt. Cdr Gordon Walter James 'Gordie' Batt RN ZA192 Sea Harrier FRS.1 800 (899) NAS/HMS Hermes

23/05/1982 1er. Ten. Luciano Guadagnini FAA C-242 A-4B Grupo 5 de Caza

23/05/1982 Ten. Héctor Ricardo Volponi FAA C-437 Dagger Grupo 6 de Caza

23/05/1982 Capitán de Corbeta Carlos Maria Zubizarreta COAN 0659 (3-A-306) A-4Q 3ra Escuadrilla Aeronaval de Caza y Ataque
(died of injuries in Rio Grande Hospital)

24/05/1982 Ten. Jorge Alberto Bono FAA C-305 A-4C Grupo 4 de Caza

24/05/1982 Ten. Carlos Julio Castillo FAA C-430 Dagger Grupo 6 de Caza

24/05/1982 Alf. Mario Luis Valko FAA A- 09 Pucara Grupo 3 de Ataque

25/05/1982 AEM(R)1 Adrian John Anslow RN SS Atlantic Conveyor 845 NAS/SS Atlantic Conveyor

25/05/1982 LAEM(L) Donald Leonard 'Don' Pryce RN SS Atlantic Conveyor 845 NAS/SS Atlantic Conveyor

25/05/1982 Cap. Jorge Osvaldo García FAA C-304 A-4C Grupo 4 de Caza

25/05/1982 Cap. Hugo Ángel del Valle Palaver FAA C-244 A-4B Grupo 5 de Caza

28/05/1982 Sol. c/63 Hector Walter Aguirre FAA Goose Green/BAM Condor Compañía de Tropa de la Base Aérea Militar Cóndor

28/05/1982 Ten. Miguel Ángel Giménez FAA A-237 Pucara Grupo 3 de Ataque

28/05/1982 Sol. c/63 Mario Ramón Luna FAA Goose Green/BAM Condor Compañía de Tropa de la Base Aérea Militar Cóndor

28/05/1982 Teniente de Fragata Daniel Enrique Miguel COAN 0765 (4-A-114) MB-339A 1ra Escuadrilla Aeronaval de Ataque

28/05/1982 Sol. c/63 Luis Guillermo Sevilla FAA Goose Green/BAM Condor Compañía de Tropa de la Base Aérea Militar Cóndor

28/05/1982 Lt. Richard James Nunn RM XT629 Scout AH.1 3 CBAS

29/05/1982 Ten. Juan Domingo Bernhardt FAA C-435 Dagger Grupo 6 de Caza

29/05/1982 1er. Ten. Luis Dário 'El Furia' Castagnari FAA Stanley Airport/BAM Malvinas Grupo de Operaciones Especiales (OiC Base Security)

30/05/1982 1er. Ten. Omar Jesús Castillo FAA C-310 A-4C Grupo 4 de Caza

30/05/1982 1er. Ten. José Dániel Vázquez FAA C-301 A-4C Grupo 4 de Caza

01/06/1982 SA Manuel Alberto Albelos FAA TC-63 C-130E Grupo 1 de Transporte Aero Esc. I

01/06/1982 CP Carlos Domingo Cantezano FAA TC-63 C-130E Grupo 1 de Transporte Aero Esc. I

01/06/1982 CP Miguel Ángel Cardone FAA TC-63 C-130E Grupo 1 de Transporte Aero Esc. I

01/06/1982 Cap. Carlos Eduardo Krause FAA TC-63 C-130E Grupo 1 de Transporte Aero Esc. I

01/06/1982 SP Julio Jésus Lastra FAA TC-63 C-130E Grupo 1 de Transporte Aero Esc. I

01/06/1982 Cap. Rúben Héctor Martel FAA TC-63 C-130E Grupo 1 de Transporte Aero Esc. I

01/06/1982 Vcom. Hugo César Meisner FAA TC-63 C-130E Grupo 1 de Transporte Aero Esc. I

05/06/1982 LCpl Simon Jeremy Cockton AAC XX377 Gazelle AH.1 656 Sqn

05/06/1982 SSgt Christopher Anthony Griffin AAC XX377 Gazelle AH.1 656 Sqn

07/06/1982 SA Francisco Tomás Luna FAA T-24 Learjet 35A Grupo 1 de Aerofotographico

07/06/1982 S.Aux. Guido Antonio Marizza FAA T-24 Learjet 35A Grupo 1 de Aerofotographico

07/06/1982 Vcom. Rodolfo Manuel de Colina FAA T-24 Learjet 35A (OC) Esc. Fénix

07/06/1982 May. Juan José Ramón Falconier FAA T-24 Learjet 35A Esc. Fénix

07/06/1982 Cap. Marcelo Pedro Lotufo FAA T-24 Learjet 35A (OC) Centro Aerofotográfico de la Fuerza Aérea Sur

08/06/1982 Ten. Juan José Arraras FAA C-226 A-4B Grupo 5 de Caza

08/06/1982 1er. Ten. Danilo Rubén Bolzán FAA C-204 A-4B Grupo 5 de Caza

08/06/1982 Alf. Jorge Alfredo Vazquez FAA C-228 A-4B Grupo 5 de Caza

12/06/1982 POEM(E) Michael John Adcock RN HMS Glamorgan 737 NAS (103 Flt)/ HMS Glamorgan

12/06/1982 AEM(1) Mark Henderson RN HMS Glamorgan 737 NAS (103 Flt)/ HMS Glamorgan

12/06/1982 AEM(R)1 Brian Peter Hinge RN HMS Glamorgan 737 NAS (103 Flt)/ HMS Glamorgan

12/06/1982 Local Acting CAEM David 'Grubber' Lee RN HMS Glamorgan 737 NAS (103 Flt)/ HMS Glamorgan

12/06/1982 AEA(M) Kelvin Ian 'Popeye' McCallum RN HMS Glamorgan 737 NAS (103 Flt)/ HMS Glamorgan

12/06/1982 POACMN Colin Paul Vickers RN HMS Glamorgan 737 NAS (103 Flt)/ HMS Glamorgan

13/06/1982 Cap. Fernando Juan Casado FAA B-108 Canberra B.62 Grupo 2 de Bombardeo

16/06/1982 NA(AH)1 Brian 'Budgie' Marsden RN HMS Invincible HMS Invincible

[Mogwi]

A sad list of lives cut short.

Mog

[sandiego89]

This guy is covering the air war from the other side, Herc bomber etc

https://twitter.com/LatinMilitaryAv


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/713x577/image_75d8aaab5ab3561d937e8fecb8e725e158dad8f9.jpeg

Thanks for sharing nutloose, there are some great pictures in there, but looks like I need to sign up for twitter to see the rest.

Regarding the bomber Herky bird, it seems that the chatter of them "rolling bombs off the ramp" of the time has be debunked (but seems to still be in some references from the time) does anyone know what it took to make it an improvised bomber? Looks like a beam between the pylon and the ejector rack? Release mechanism/wiring? Sighting?

[SLXOwft]

Assembly of stills including those (I assume) responsible https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdqROpCca10

Para los que leen español mejor que yo... https://www.marambio.aq/pdf/herculesbombardero.pdf

Looks an interesting document on Hercules Ops in 1982.

Courtesy of goggle translate:
Therefore, it was necessary to attack the enemy supply lines, that is, to restrict the freedom action of English traffic on the high seas; in this case it was going to be a distant air interdiction, given the distances that the designated aircraft should travel. One study determined that the most suitable aircraft for the task was the C-130 H Hercules, because had a great range that could be increased, there was the possibility of adding something some type of weaponry and there were crew members who were trained in search and rescue, in aeromaritime exploration and in performing autonomously in different types of air operations; this proposal was approved by the CAE. The aircraft with registration TC - 68 was assigned for the task and it was determined that due to its technical capacity the modifications had to be carried out in the Military Aircraft Factory (Córdoba). The engineering studies determined that the following modifications be made:

installed four fuel pylon tanks – originally designed for mounting under the wings – inside the cargo hold to increase its endurance (approximately 19.00 flight hours)
in the two external stations, in the place of the two fuel tanks, they adapted two MER (multiple ejection racks) multiple bomb racks to it, in which it could carry up to six 250-kilogram bombs in each (twelve in all)
in the pilot's position on the dashboard an SFON shooting sight as used in Pucará aircraft, was placed,
added a button to fire the bombs to the control yoke in the pilot's position
In the co-pilot's position, on the right panel, the control box for the weapons system, which was from where its use was enabled

The device was rudimentary and the aircraft had not been designed to perform that type of task; therefore the probability of hitting a naval target was remote, but it was fulfill one of the objectives of aerial interdiction, which is to "interfere" or annoy the enemy.

[NutLoose]

Thanks for sharing nutloose, there are some great pictures in there, but looks like I need to sign up for twitter to see the rest.

Regarding the bomber Herky bird, it seems that the chatter of them "rolling bombs off the ramp" of the time has be debunked (but seems to still be in some references from the time) does anyone know what it took to make it an improvised bomber? Looks like a beam between the pylon and the ejector rack? Release mechanism/wiring? Sighting?

Just click on sign up or sign in, it opens a bigger version of the window with an x top left, then close it and carry on. :)

[sandiego89]

Just click on sign up or sign in, it opens a bigger version of the window with an x top left, then close it and carry on. :)

Thanks for the work-around!

[NutLoose]

Meanwhile…

https://youtu.be/mUJ9zfXV2KU

[tartare]

Will any of those Jet Art Harriers be allowed to fly again?
I assume not - complex type etc.

[NutLoose]

No, I doubt it, it was restored to taxying only, but if you want a flyer see..



3 HARRIER AIRCRAFT PACKAGE | Courtesy Aircraft (http://courtesyaircraft.com/aircraft/3-harrier-aircraft-package/)

http://warbirdsnews.com/warbird-articles/art-nalls-hawker-siddeley-harrier-fleet-for-sale.html

[tartare]

There was a Harrier (static) at the Avalon airshow in Melbourne years ago.
What amazed me looking at it was how compact the cockpit was.
As tight fitting as an A-4 - the pilot has a lot of leg under the instrument panel... must have been very tight clearance if you had to use the seat.
Much reflection on the bravery it took to strap in and launch off a heaving deck in cold, foul South Atlantic weather.

[skridlov]

Not sure if this documentary has already been mentioned here.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0018c8n/our-falklands-war-a-frontline-story
I watched it two days ago. Highly recommended.
PS
Apologies that this is already in the thread. First class, nonetheless.

[wiggy]

There was a Harrier (static) at the Avalon airshow in Melbourne years ago.
What amazed me looking at it was how compact the cockpit was.
As tight fitting as an A-4 - the pilot has a lot of leg under the instrument panel... must have been very tight clearance if you had to use the seat.
Much reflection on the bravery it took to strap in and launch off a heaving deck in cold, foul South Atlantic weather.

As I recall it the Harrier folks had their flying boots modified with a flap to stop the bootlaces being damaged/cut by cockpit furniture in the event of a high speed exit...

No doubt one of our previous posters can confirm or deny.

[Mogwi]

I thought that it was to stop friction damage to the end of a very sensitive piece of personal equipment! 😈

Mog

[wiggy]

I thought that it was to stop friction damage to the end of a very sensitive piece of personal equipment! 😈

Mog

:}:ok:..........

[sycamore]

Very short legs.....

[MPN11]

IIRC [with a nod to Mogwi] it facilitated the zip=fastener installation?

An ex-SAR mate showed me a lacing technique for the boots, whereby one pull on the loose ends tightened the whole lacing for a speedy booting process.

[BEagle]

As I recall it the Harrier folks had their flying boots modified with a flap to stop the bootlaces being damaged/cut by cockpit furniture in the event of a high speed exit...

This modification came about for Harrier pilots only. After a number of such 'bona mates' lost their boots whilst ejecting from their jets, it was found that this was caused by the boot laces having rotted.

The cause of the rotting was soon identified. As is well-known, all Harrier pilots have very small willies and as a result would often widdle over their boot laces, due to dimensional limitations.

So a flap was provided to protect the laces henceforth and the problem was resolved....https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[langleybaston]

Priceless.

As an aside, I have just finished Pook's account of the GR3s in the campaign. A very good counterblast to that of the bearded wonder's sniping.

[Cat Techie]

No, I doubt it, it was restored to taxying only, but if you want a flyer see..



3 HARRIER AIRCRAFT PACKAGE | Courtesy Aircraft (http://courtesyaircraft.com/aircraft/3-harrier-aircraft-package/)

http://warbirdsnews.com/warbird-articles/art-nalls-hawker-siddeley-harrier-fleet-for-sale.html

Way more than he paid for it. Of course the aircraft has all the avionics replaced by modern systems and the seat is not standard SHAR fit. There is the project at St Athan with SHARs going for PtF with the CAA. They are having a Major maintenance with insistence with the CAA and the complex aircraft rules are having robust work arounds agreed on the OEM provisions. Time will tell.

[charliegolf]

So a flap was provided to protect the laces henceforth and the problem was resolved....https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Leading to the origin of the nickname for said flaps...:E

CG

[Mogwi]

Way more than he paid for it. Of course the aircraft has all the avionics replaced by modern systems and the seat is not standard SHAR fit. There is the project at St Athan with SHARs going for PtF with the CAA. They are having a Major maintenance with insistence with the CAA and the complex aircraft rules are having robust work arounds agreed on the OEM provisions. Time will tell.

Yep, spent some time with the project and I believe that we will hear the mighty roar of the Peggy quite soon.

Mog

[Vonrichthoffen]

Thank you for that SLWOwft.

[olster]

The BBC documentary on the Falklands war was riveting. For once the BBC put aside woke posturing and allowed the veterans to talk with astonishing and direct honesty. Truly poignant and revealing; those that have experienced warfare are changed for ever. The warmongers among the politicos who sabre rattle have no concept of the reality. From a 19 year old officer bayoneting an opponent to other brutal revelations of the horrors. I enjoyed the laconic para commander who was asked whether he felt sorry for the defeated and captured Argentinians. ‘Not really...pause...actually I thought they were just f/wits!’ A friend of a very good friend of mine was a Falklands SH pilot (not the correspondent here). He said that he refused to go to a reception with Thatcher on return as he was exhausted and did not enjoy the juxtaposition of the jingoism compared to the reality. One of the best and searingly honest documentaries I have seen in a long time.

[NutLoose]

In case you haven’t seen this, one pilot is still serving.

https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/647244-youngest-pilot-during-falkland-s-conflict-continues-serve-royal-navy.html

[ORAC]

https://x.com/rdphistory/status/1740350426262687885?s=61&t=rmEeUn68HhlFHGKbTPQr_A


Dated December 17th 2023, Fundacion Malvinas confirms that HMS Invincible was absolutely sunk and the crew evacuated to Hermes, as Illustrious supposedly pretended to be Invincible... More insanity from the Argentoons 😂

https://www.fundacionmalvinas.org/relatos-del-conflicto/476/hms-invencible-el-ocultamiento-britanico/

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1214x787/image_ff96f411fd6dcd13cc3346046ba8d5d11c57788f.png
​​​​​​​

[Asturias56]

"It is likely that the presence of the Illustrious came to complete the British farce, to replace the absence of the sunken HMS Invincible, since there are no images of it after the war, all the images are previous to the war and those that survived were taken during the war, before being attacked. After May 30 there is not a single one, the HMS Invincible was never heard from again."

Hysterical!!!! :O​​​​​​​

[Mogwi]

There was a large (c40cm) weld in the hull of Invincible, just aft of the starboard, after gangway. When asked about the Argentine story, we just used to sigh and cast our eyes up towards the weld. This produced a number of “Zut alors” from the Super E pilots on Foch and much mirth from us.

Mog

[melmothtw]

I know several Argentine defence correspondents and they're all educated, well informed, and reasonable people. However, to a man they are all convinced Invincible (and sometimes Hermes) were attacked and hit, and no amount of evidence to the contrary will persuade them otherwise. It's perplexing.

[421dog]

So, the rest of the world still respects the UK to a phenomenal extent after the Sheffield incident. There’s no video that I can find to authenticate it, but is there anyone who can confirm that a bunch of you studs actually stood around at whatever the Naval Equivalent of parade rest is, around the rail, singing a Monty Python song while your ship was on fire (having been sold to them by us, I think) there was nothing else you were being asked to do, any you were pretty much likely to exit stage left fairly soon…

[Marcantilan]

The story about Invincible sunk is followed by people who believe in flat earth, lizards in power and so on.

Those people are around all the globe (or all around the table), not only in Argentina.

[Mogwi]

So, the rest of the world still respects the UK to a phenomenal extent after the Sheffield incident. There’s no video that I can find to authenticate it, but is there anyone who can confirm that a bunch of you studs actually stood around at whatever the Naval Equivalent of parade rest is, around the rail, singing a Monty Python song while your ship was on fire (having been sold to them by us, I think) there was nothing else you were being asked to do, any you were pretty much likely to exit stage left fairly soon…

I can confirm it; a good friend of mine led the singing. Also, SHEFF was built in UK not USA.

Mog

[Lonewolf_50]

On a technical note: Sheffield's burning was a factor in the USN deciding to make the superstructures of the Arleigh Burke class DDs out of steel, rather than the aluminum that Spruance / Ticonderoga DDs / CGs, and Perry FFs, were made from.

[Asturias56]

It's an ill wind...................

[Asturias56]

New Government make s moves to tone down the more extreme views

https://en.mercopress.com/2024/01/04/argentina-malvinas-claim-recognizes-islanders-interests-and-a-mature-relation-with-britain

"The third of January has been an iconic date for Argentina's claim over the Falkland Islands, since on that day but in 1833, the “United Kingdom forcibly occupied the Malvinas Islands over which ”a recently independent Argentine Nation was exercising sovereignty, given her condition of heir to such possessions of Spain in South America.”That is the heading of the 2024 official release, a ritual in the Argentine Malvinas calendar, but this time under a new administration and foreign minister Diana Mondino there have been some significant changes compared to the previous backlashes from former governments.

In effect the release recognizes or announces that bilateral negotiations, “taking into account the interests of the Islanders” is a factor in the equation. Likewise, it reiterates the willingness of Argentina for the immediate resumption of negotiations on the Falklands sovereignty, “wishing to maintain a mature relation with the United Kingdom, contemplating a substantial and constructive dialogue on all those issues of common interest looking to create a confidence climate propitious for the resumption of negotiations”.

A difference from previous releases when Falkland Islanders were not even recognized as a people, and Britain was described as an usurper'. Follows the Argentine foreign ministry release.

[Davef68]

Dated December 17th 2023, Fundacion Malvinas confirms that HMS Invincible was absolutely sunk and the crew evacuated to Hermes, as Illustrious supposedly pretended to be Invincible... More insanity from the Argentoons 😂

https://www.fundacionmalvinas.org/relatos-del-conflicto/476/hms-invencible-el-ocultamiento-britanico/

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1214x787/image_ff96f411fd6dcd13cc3346046ba8d5d11c57788f.png

Towed it to the tropics first as well! Oh, and.....

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/989x645/image_7d3f74be5aa3d66fef69b506be05cd10f0376883.png

[Asturias56]

I think Marcantilan has it - every country has its share of nutters and conspiracy freaks - after all we've got Sharkey :(

[DogTailRed2]

Why do they sink ships to make underwater refuges for sea creatures? Would it not be better to save the metal after all it will just turn to oxide underwater?

[Gordon Brown]

Why do they sink ships to make underwater refuges for sea creatures? Would it not be better to save the metal after all it will just turn to oxide underwater?

Because the SCUBA diving is great!

[Asturias56]

https://en.mercopress.com/2024/01/17/argentina-and-uk-explore-economic-ties-and-falklands-resolution-in-davos-meetingArgentina and UK explore economic ties and Falklands resolution in Davos meetingWednesday, January (https://en.mercopress.com/2024/01) 17th (https://en.mercopress.com/2024/01/17) 2024 (https://en.mercopress.com/2024) - 19:18 UTC
Full article9 comments (https://en.mercopress.com/2024/01/17/argentina-and-uk-explore-economic-ties-and-falklands-resolution-in-davos-meeting/comments)https://en.mercopress.com/data/cache/noticias/97976/760x480/milei-cameron.jpg (https://en.mercopress.com/data/cache/noticias/97976/0x0/milei-cameron.jpg)

Milei mentioned that the discussions didn't delve deeply into the Falklands matter, but they framed it as an agenda item. He expressed a perspective on resolving it through a Hong Kong model

Argentine President Javier Milei and British Foreign Secretary David Cameron met at the World Economic Forum on Wednesday, signalling a commitment to enhance bilateral trade relations and address the dispute over the Falkland/Malvinas Islands. Both nations engaged in a conflict over this territory in 1982, when Argentina invaded the South Atlantic islands. Since then, the South American country has maintained its claim to sovereignty.

Describing the meeting in Davos, Switzerland, as “excellent and very cordial,” President Milei shared, “We discussed how to streamline bilateral trade, promote British investments in Argentina, and included the Falkland Islands as a point on an agenda with the Foreign Ministry to advance solutions on the issue.” The meeting lasted 20 minutes, and the President was joined by the Chancellor Diana Mondino and the Secretary General of the Presidency and sister of the head of state, Karina Milei. While acknowledging that in-depth progress wasn't achieved, Milei highlighted, “We've set it as a point on an agenda where our Foreign Minister, Diana Mondino, and Minister Cameron will work towards finding a solution to the Falklands issue.”

In an interview with Infobae, President Milei mentioned that the discussions didn't delve deeply into the Falklands matter, but they framed it as an agenda item. He expressed a perspective on resolving it through a Hong Kong model with China and England.
David Cameron, the British Foreign Secretary, shared a message about the meeting: “There is much that the UK and Argentina can achieve by working together. I met with President Javier Milei to discuss building cooperation on trade and combatting global threats. I wished him well in his attempts to bring Argentina back to economic growth,” he posted on X (Twitter).

During his run for the presidency, Milei had said that Argentina should not renounce its claim to sovereignty over the Falklands/Malvinas, but added that in an eventual agreement with London, “the position of the people living in the islands cannot be ignored”.

These expressions were in line with the statements made by his then advisor on international affairs and now Chancellor Diana Mondino, who stated that the inhabitants of the Islands (kelpers) must be able to “decide their own destiny” and “no decision can be imposed on other people”. These statements were rejected by politicians of different forces and Argentine ex-combatants of the 1982 war in which the South American country was defeated by the United Kingdom. ”A political sector that does not hide its admiration for Margaret Thatcher (British Prime Minister during the war conflict) speaks of respecting the rights of the islanders introduced in our Malvinas territory in line with the wishes of the British government”, warned in a statement the Confederation of Malvinas Combatants of the Argentine Republic.

[India Four Two]

While acknowledging that in-depth progress wasn't achieved, Milei highlighted, “We've set it as a point on an agenda where our Foreign Minister, Diana Mondino, and Minister Cameron will work towards finding a solution to the Falklands issue.”

Drafted by the Argentinian equivalent of Sir Humphrey, no doubt!

[artee]

https://en.mercopress.com/2024/01/17/argentina-and-uk-explore-economic-ties-and-falklands-resolution-in-davos-meetingArgentina and UK explore economic ties and Falklands resolution in Davos meetingWednesday, January (https://en.mercopress.com/2024/01) 17th (https://en.mercopress.com/2024/01/17) 2024 (https://en.mercopress.com/2024) - 19:18 UTC
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Milei mentioned that the discussions didn't delve deeply into the Falklands matter, but they framed it as an agenda item. He expressed a perspective on resolving it through a Hong Kong model

Argentine President Javier Milei and British Foreign Secretary David Cameron met at the World Economic Forum on Wednesday, signalling a commitment to enhance bilateral trade relations and address the dispute over the Falkland/Malvinas Islands. Both nations engaged in a conflict over this territory in 1982, when Argentina invaded the South Atlantic islands. Since then, the South American country has maintained its claim to sovereignty.

Describing the meeting in Davos, Switzerland, as “excellent and very cordial,” President Milei shared, “We discussed how to streamline bilateral trade, promote British investments in Argentina, and included the Falkland Islands as a point on an agenda with the Foreign Ministry to advance solutions on the issue.” The meeting lasted 20 minutes, and the President was joined by the Chancellor Diana Mondino and the Secretary General of the Presidency and sister of the head of state, Karina Milei. While acknowledging that in-depth progress wasn't achieved, Milei highlighted, “We've set it as a point on an agenda where our Foreign Minister, Diana Mondino, and Minister Cameron will work towards finding a solution to the Falklands issue.”

In an interview with Infobae, President Milei mentioned that the discussions didn't delve deeply into the Falklands matter, but they framed it as an agenda item. He expressed a perspective on resolving it through a Hong Kong model with China and England.
David Cameron, the British Foreign Secretary, shared a message about the meeting: “There is much that the UK and Argentina can achieve by working together. I met with President Javier Milei to discuss building cooperation on trade and combatting global threats. I wished him well in his attempts to bring Argentina back to economic growth,” he posted on X (Twitter).

During his run for the presidency, Milei had said that Argentina should not renounce its claim to sovereignty over the Falklands/Malvinas, but added that in an eventual agreement with London, “the position of the people living in the islands cannot be ignored”.

These expressions were in line with the statements made by his then advisor on international affairs and now Chancellor Diana Mondino, who stated that the inhabitants of the Islands (kelpers) must be able to “decide their own destiny” and “no decision can be imposed on other people”. These statements were rejected by politicians of different forces and Argentine ex-combatants of the 1982 war in which the South American country was defeated by the United Kingdom. ”A political sector that does not hide its admiration for Margaret Thatcher (British Prime Minister during the war conflict) speaks of respecting the rights of the islanders introduced in our Malvinas territory in line with the wishes of the British government”, warned in a statement the Confederation of Malvinas Combatants of the Argentine Republic.
Hopefully David (call me Dave) Cameron won't preside over Falkxit.

[Ninthace]

20 minutes of talks - by the time they have got the tea and coffee order sorted it would be over!

[Bergerie1]

But it may be a good start. Eventually, there has to be some reconciliation.

[1066]

Late to the party as befits an early Airbridge pilot!! SLKOwft thanks for the pics of the Herc bomber. We took the No1 from British Wye northbound on one of the Jun/Jul airbridges. He described the bombs dropped on the B Wye as green with a yellow stripe around the nose, (as shown in your #209). I remember thinking that was way too close if you can describe that from the receiving end. He also said that the tanks on the attacked side contained AVCAT.

Which radar was it just up the hill, SW from the control tower? Westinghouse? I remember being told the that an American took just one printed circuit card with him before our boys arrived. We were told he was from the manufacturers and the loss of that one card was enough to make the radar useless.

Many thanks to the MAOT "Motley 9"? Always a welcome voice after 13+ hours.

Also thanks to the Mobile Met Unit, Bill McQueen was it? both at ASI and PSA.

The MMU forecast of a Z pattern jet coming off S America allowed us to pressure pattern fly, going north, until the wind dropped off and achieve 9.40 PSA to ASI.
A Herc record I think. Average northbound flight time was 11 hours.

Great thread, thanks MOGWI et al.

1066

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

Which radar was it just up the hill, SW from the control tower? Westinghouse? I remember being told the that an American took just one printed circuit card with him before our boys arrived. We were told he was from the manufacturers and the loss of that one card was enough to make the radar useless.

Great thread, thanks MOGWI et al. 1066

If it's the AD radar I'm thinking it is, it was a (Westinghouse?) TPS-43 (retrieved from failing memory!). It's unserviceablity - if ever it was - was extremely short lived as it was fully operational and part of FIADGE from August 1982, if not before.