Qantas Project Sunrise Airbus order 2 May 2022?

[artee]

The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/may/01/qantas-closes-in-on-direct-sydney-to-london-flights-with-landmark-airbus-jet-order-industry-sources-say)

"Qantas is set to announce a landmark order for Airbus A350-1000 jets capable of non-stop flights from Sydney (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/sydney) to London as part of a wider deal with the European planemaker, according to sources.The multibillion-dollar order, to be unveiled in a Sydney airport hangar on Monday, brings the Australian carrier closer to launching record-breaking direct flights of nearly 20 hours on the lucrative “kangaroo route” by mid-2025...

...An Airbus-owned A350-1000 was flying on Sunday from Toulouse to Perth, tracking service FlightRadar24 showed.

Qantas, which has said it would make a significant announcement on Monday about the future of its network, declined to comment. Airbus also declined to comment."

[TimmyTee]

Isn't it slightly ironic that an empty 1000 is flying to perth and not direct to Sydney (presuming it will head straight there after perth)?

[ampclamp]

https://www.flightradar24.com/AIB151/2bae7b4f

F-WMIL

[KRviator]

Isn't it slightly ironic that an empty 1000 is flying to perth and not direct to Sydney (presuming it will head straight there after perth)?Indeed...It's only 30 years since Qantas took their new 747-400 non-stop from London to Sydney. You would have thought if tomorrows announcement is about the A350 & LHR-SYD non-stop that Airbus wold at least be able to do Toulouse-Sydney non-stop to show off their new toy.

Guess they have their reasons. Maybe it's to placate der fuhrer so he doesn't think he's going to lose his precious QF9/QF10 services out of Perth?

[dr dre]

It’ll be a few more (https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/qantas-order-long-range-airbus-a350s-part-wider-deal-sources-2022-05-01/) than a dozen 350’s......

On Sunday, the West Australian newspaper said, without citing sources, that the Qantas order would include 12 A350s, 20 A321XLRs and 20 A220s as well as purchase rights for 106 more airplanes spread among the different types.

An airBaltic A220 was parked in Sydney on Sunday, FlightRadar24 showed. That destination is not on a normal route for the European carrier. Australia has no A220 operators at present.

[BuzzBox]

According to Executive Traveller magazine, QF is planning to install 369 seats in their A350-1000s, across FOUR classes. Other airlines that operate the A350-1000, such as CX and QR, have around 330 seats in TWO classes (QR) or THREE classes (CX). If that number is correct, the QF aircraft will be very cramped down the back, given that First takes up a lot of space for relatively few seats.

Qantas to launch Project Sunrise flights to London, New York tomorrow (https://www.executivetraveller.com/qantas-project-sunrise-a350)

[SandyPalms]

I read in another article that is was 270 or so.

[BuzzBox]

I read in another article that is was 270 or so.

That sounds far more reasonable!

[sippy]

That will be a lovely sector- I remember when working for them being up all night to young kids- driving 3 hours to Sydney then killing time at work then flying just to Bangkok getting off feeling knackered- now it’s going to be a 20 hour flight direct to London with 11 hour time zone change- couple of nights there and same sector home.

[CCA]

QF royalty is likely boarding the plane in Perth so they can have a jolly.

Having QF staff depart from France was likely a bit risky Covid wise.

[PoppaJo]

A whole heap of fanfare for something 3 plus years away, can only imagine the farewell party he will give himself on his own departure, which might I add, when the heck is he leaving again?

[blubak]

QF royalty is likely boarding the plane in Perth so they can have a jolly.

Having QF staff depart from France was likely a bit risky Covid wise.
Thats very likely,they will be able to slap each other on the back for 4 hrs & convince themselves what a great job they have done.
They can also check out how many curtains they will need for each aircraft to hide the exhausted crew from the public's eye.

[F-flyer]

Qantas to place largest order in its 102-year history, targeting 150 Airbus jetArticle by Geoffrey Thomas in The West Australian

"While designed for 369 passengers the A350 will only carry about 270 for the ultra-long-range flights and will be the roomiest of any Qantas jet.
According to the insiders, the configuration of the A350 will be four classes and economy passengers will get a 34-inch (86.4cm) seat pitch, rather than the normal 31 inches (79cm).
And the economy seats will be wider than those on the 787 and 747.
The Qantas A350 economy seats will be 18 inches (45.7cm) wide – almost an inch (2.54cm) wider than those on the 787.
First class, business class and premium economy will all be “significantly” enhanced with more legroom in premium economy, closer to Air New Zealand’s industry high 42 inches (106.7cm)."

[blubak]

Qantas to place largest order in its 102-year history, targeting 150 Airbus jetArticle by Geoffrey Thomas in The West Australian

"While designed for 369 passengers the A350 will only carry about 270 for the ultra-long-range flights and will be the roomiest of any Qantas jet.
According to the insiders, the configuration of the A350 will be four classes and economy passengers will get a 34-inch (86.4cm) seat pitch, rather than the normal 31 inches (79cm).
And the economy seats will be wider than those on the 787 and 747.
The Qantas A350 economy seats will be 18 inches (45.7cm) wide – almost an inch (2.54cm) wider than those on the 787.
First class, business class and premium economy will all be “significantly” enhanced with more legroom in premium economy, closer to Air New Zealand’s industry high 42 inches (106.7cm)."
Oh there you go,GT in the know again.
I guess he was on the phone to Alan this morning & advised him what seating was required.
Im sure his face will pop up at the Airbus hosted cocktail party in Sydney tomorrow evening.

[ScepticalOptomist]

That will be a lovely sector- I remember when working for them being up all night to young kids- driving 3 hours to Sydney then killing time at work then flying just to Bangkok getting off feeling knackered- now it’s going to be a 20 hour flight direct to London with 11 hour time zone change- couple of nights there and same sector home.

Yeah but the 7+ hrs in the bunk does help an awful lot. The DRW-LHR and PER-LHR flights are much nicer on my body than the 3 man back of the clock “short” 8-10hr hops from Asia I used to do..

[DirectAnywhere]

GT, old mate, I wouldn’t get too excited about an apparent 150 jet order. I’m old enough to remember this. You can guarantee if it’s aeroplanes for mainline, it will be as few as possible.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1026/32931610_0b2d_4b44_821a_f30a3f0632b9_0031f62f7562399fbaa976b b678196b65a0ddef2.jpeg

[WHBM]

Indeed...It's only 30 years since Qantas took their new 747-400 non-stop from London to Sydney. You would have thought if tomorrows announcement is about the A350 & LHR-SYD non-stop that Airbus wold at least be able to do Toulouse-Sydney non-stop to show off their new toy.

I remember that going overhead me shortly after takeoff from Heathrow. Gosh, 30 years ago. Incidentally, there was a fascinating article once on the web by the chief steward on the flight about the catering provision etc. Can't find it any more - anyone know where it is now ?

I also seem to remember an early A340-300 doing nonstop Toulouse-Auckland-Toulouse, eastbound throughout.

At least I'll be pleased they haven't gone for a 787 "Squashliner". Doing an overnight trip in one just before the lockdown, in economy, was the most uncomfortable trip I have ever done.

[BuzzBox]

I also seem to remember an early A340-300 doing nonstop Toulouse-Auckland-Toulouse, eastbound throughout.

I believe the record is held by a 777-200LR that flew non-stop from HKG to LHR, eastbound, in 23 hours. That was in 2005.

[HappyBandit]

I remember that going overhead me shortly after takeoff from Heathrow. Gosh, 30 years ago. Incidentally, there was a fascinating article once on the web by the chief steward on the flight about the catering provision etc. Can't find it any more - anyone know where it is now ?

I also seem to remember an early A340-300 doing nonstop Toulouse-Auckland-Toulouse, eastbound throughout.

At least I'll be pleased they haven't gone for a 787 "Squashliner". Doing an overnight trip in one just before the lockdown, in economy, was the most uncomfortable trip I have ever done.

Indeed, I did 2 trips between Oz and London in economy on the 78. It felt every bit of that 17hr journey, I can tell you. Interestingly I didn't feel as tired as I normally do once I got off that tube. Perhaps the 6k alt air?

[FullWings]

I wonder what the ticket prices will be? One 20-hr flight uses considerably more fuel than two 10hr ones. Also, where is the demand for this over a cheaper flight that breaks the journey in two and is only a couple of hours (10%) more elapsed time in total, or gives a chance for a longer slip to acclimatise? How much payload will the aircraft actually be able to carry compared with its nominal capacity?

The longest sector I’ve ever done was just under 18hrs and I felt like crap at the end of it, and I had a bed!

[The Messnger]

I reckon that the Irishman is eventually targeting Syd to Syd non-stop with no jet lag.

[WHBM]

I wonder what the ticket prices will be? One 20-hr flight uses considerably more fuel than two 10hr ones.
This is only one side of the cost equation. More fuel, but less airframe hours, less cycles for any cycle-related maintenance, etc. I'm sure the long haul carriers know the numbers, but traditionally nonstops have always expanded with the capability of aircraft to overfly previous intermediate stops.

Furthermore, as I have described many times, cost and revenue are not directly connected. Revenue is driven by what passengers will pay you, not by how much it costs you to provide it.

[swh]

Indeed...It's only 30 years since Qantas took their new 747-400 non-stop from London to Sydney. You would have thought if tomorrows announcement is about the A350 & LHR-SYD non-stop that Airbus wold at least be able to do Toulouse-Sydney non-stop to show off their new toy.

Guess they have their reasons. Maybe it's to placate der fuhrer so he doesn't think he's going to lose his precious QF9/QF10 services out of Perth?

I’m guessing the reason for the night time arrival would be the QF decals placed on the aircraft for its grand entrance in the morning.

With todays winds, and the configuration it flew in, they could have flown LHR-AKL with OHA as an alternate.

[andrasz]

One 20-hr flight uses considerably more fuel than two 10hr ones.

I would need to check the maths, but I would not be so sure about that. Yes, fuel consumption is highest at takeoff, and is a direct function of takeoff weight, but the equation is definitely not 1:1. Also the 20 hr sector needs to be compared to two 10.5 hr to allow for another approach/landing & takeoff. But the big savings is doing away with the interim airport landing and handling fees which is a considerable portion of total cost. On the revenue side I'm not so sure how it will work out. As a rule of thumb, an airline can charge a premium for a non-stop service (or rather competitors with a connection need to offer a discount), however on such a long route where the time saving is marginal, I don't know to what extent will this work. I for one would rather pay less and spend a night in a Bangkok hotel to break it into two shorter legs. The key is how much of the premium traffic will they manage to capture to fill F/C. I have taken QF first, and the experience was quite disappointing in comparison with what the competition has to offer.

[widgeon]

How many cabin crew will they use ? Will they need 3 sets of flight crew also ?.

[FullWings]

I guess they will work out something with the regulator. The longest continuous duty I’ve done was just under 28hrs last year under an alleviation.

I would need to check the maths, but I would not be so sure about that. Yes, fuel consumption is highest at takeoff, and is a direct function of takeoff weight, but the equation is definitely not 1:1. Also the 20 hr sector needs to be compared to two 10.5 hr to allow for another approach/landing & takeoff. But the big savings is doing away with the interim airport landing and handling fees which is a considerable portion of total cost. On the revenue side I'm not so sure how it will work out. As a rule of thumb, an airline can charge a premium for a non-stop service (or rather competitors with a connection need to offer a discount), however on such a long route where the time saving is marginal, I don't know to what extent will this work. I for one would rather pay less and spend a night in a Bangkok hotel to break it into two shorter legs. The key is how much of the premium traffic will they manage to capture to fill F/C. I have taken QF first, and the experience was quite disappointing in comparison with what the competition has to offer.
It’s non-linear and by the time you get out to the 20th hour of flying, you have had to carry the fuel to do that for 19hrs, burning a significant amount to do that. For a given L/D ratio, there is a point eventually where adding more fuel doesn’t measurably increase the range, similar to the rocket equation’s relationship to velocity. It’s an informed guess, but I’d expect to use at least 40% more fuel on a 20hr ULH sector than two 10.5hr ones with the same payload; at ~USD1,200/mt that’s going to be significant. Also, you might save in cycle-denominated engineering costs but you’re going to work the engines harder, especially taking off with likely very little or no derate.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

In Perth

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1099/jpeg_image_154e5a40d116ee4a69476d0fde4a26e9c1ccca20.jpeg

[Rwy in Sight]

The A343 flight was done during the Le Bourget Airshow in 1993

[C441]

How many cabin crew will they use ? Will they need 3 sets of flight crew also ?.
The expectation is that they'll still use a Captain, F/O and 2 S/Os as they currently do on Ultra Longhaul services such as Perth/Darwin-London and Dallas-Sydney.

There was a push by some of the Pilot representatives to at least include a second F/O, rather than second S/O, to allow the 'landing' crew to optimise their rest prior to descent but this has been deemed unnecessary……by those who will rarely if ever have to do it.

[WHBM]

Also the 20 hr sector needs to be compared to two 10.5 hr to allow for another approach/landing & takeoff. But the big savings is doing away with the interim airport landing and handling fees which is a considerable portion of total cost.
Not only a 20 to 21 hour comparison, but there's ground time as well, it seems impossible nowadays to turn a long-haul widebody in less than 1.5 hours, so now 22.5 hours. You also need a commercially sensible intermediate stop bang on the Great Circle track to achieve this. If you are doing passenger work at the intermediate stop it's then a challenge to balance loads equally, every time, on both legs, so some revenue wastage there.

[Stationair8]

No, it is going via Perth so that AJ can get the Network, Cobham, Alliance and VARA chaps to put in a price to fly the shiny jet.

[swh]

Approval of Project Sunrise, with order for 12 x Airbus A350s capable of flying direct from Australia to any other city including New York and London, starting from Sydney in late 2025.
Domestic fleet renewal from late 2023, with order for 40 x A321XLRs and A220 aircraft; 94 purchase order rights spread over at least a decade.
Major improvements in emissions, running costs and passenger comfort vs retiring aircraft.
No change to FY23 capital guidance; structure of orders to align with Group Financial Framework[1] (https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-group-announces-major-aircraft-order-to-shape-its-future/#_ftn1).

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-group-announces-major-aircraft-order-to-shape-its-future/

[DirectAnywhere]

The expectation is that they'll still use a Captain, F/O and 2 S/Os as they currently do on Ultra Longhaul services such as Perth/Darwin-London and Dallas-Sydney.

There was a push by some of the Pilot representatives to at least include a second F/O, rather than second S/O, to allow the 'landing' crew to optimise their rest prior to descent but this has been deemed unnecessary……by those who will rarely if ever have to do it.

When did that get canned? The ability for the Captain and at least one of the FOs to get the rest they wanted was the only thing that made 20 plus hr duties even vaguely palatable or acceptable from a fatigue mitigation standpoint.

[AerialPerspective]

Oh there you go,GT in the know again.
I guess he was on the phone to Alan this morning & advised him what seating was required.
Im sure his face will pop up at the Airbus hosted cocktail party in Sydney tomorrow evening.

Oh God, he is such a BS artist tool.

"About 270" is not what it will carry, it is nowhere near 238 - which is what it will ACTUALLY be configured for - he can't even get the figure correct. It nearly makes me vomit every time I see this dolt's face on TV with the banner saying "Aviation Expert".

Wouldn't know an aeroplane or an aviation fact if it slowly surfaced in his morning porridge.

[SixDemonBag]

Surely JQ will end up 320/321xlr and send the 78’s to mainline?

[PoppaJo]

Surely JQ will end up 320/321xlr and send the 78’s to mainline?
More chance being sold vs handing over. They did try to sell 1/4 of the 788's back in 2019. When backlogs for big twins start to bite again in a few years, then I would expect them to be flogged off for a premium again. The next year or two is all about taking advantage the travel boom, then it's back to business when the red ink starts to appear again around the network.

Doubtful that JQ will go into the 2030's and beyond with big twins. A321 will do a whole heap of Asia, Aussie Pilots, Asia CC. That last bit seems to always be the most important bit.

[Buckshot]

12 A350 frames would be about 100ish Captains. Any speculation how senior these slots would likely go? ie don't hold out if your number isn't < 300

A321 commands could be enticing for senior WB FOs (or those not wanting to endure the dodgy seat back on the 73) or even those 65+ bidding back with an easier conversion compared to 73.

[blubak]

Oh God, he is such a BS artist tool.

"About 270" is not what it will carry, it is nowhere near 238 - which is what it will ACTUALLY be configured for - he can't even get the figure correct. It nearly makes me vomit every time I see this dolt's face on TV with the banner saying "Aviation Expert".

Wouldn't know an aeroplane or an aviation fact if it slowly surfaced in his morning porridge.
Will be very interesting to see ticket prices on these flights. Having only 238 pax is going to really test the economics of this service,the outlay for this aircraft is massive & with fuel prices like they are now its going to be a interesting exercise to convince the punters to pay a premium so they can save a couple of hours to get from point A to point B.

[Ollie Onion]

Jetstar comms said today the 20 A321xlrs are destined for Jetstar from next year.

[SandyPalms]

Ollie. They are 2 different orders for A321xlr's.

I've also heard that they are different engine types. JQ CFM and QF P&W

[Going Nowhere]

Ollie. They are 2 different orders for A321xlr's.

I've also heard that they are different engine types. JQ CFM and QF P&W

There is an earlier order for A321LR’s and now an order for XLR’s.



Demonstration of this flexibility with confirmation today that Jetstar will convert 20 of its existing A320 family order to A321XLRs, which have the potential to fly short haul international routes, with delivery to start in the second half of calendar 2024. (The first tranche from this existing order – 18 A321LRs – are due to arrive from July 2022 onwards.)



https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-group-announces-major-aircraft-order-to-shape-its-future/

[Ollie Onion]

Ollie. They are 2 different orders for A321xlr's.

I've also heard that they are different engine types. JQ CFM and QF P&W


Gotcha, thanks

[JRK]

Wasn't the original 744 flight canned because even the premium class pax found it to be too exhausting?

[mustafagander]

Hey Andrasz,
Fuel burn goes almost exponential for ultra long haul ops.
As I recall it, the extra burn per ton for B744 SYD-DFW was about 650Kg/ton uplifted. That refers to fuel or payload coz fuel is really just house bricks until you burn it. Hence it is way more fuel efficient to make a stop at the half way point. Think about covering a tempo T/Z at DFW ex SYD, about 8 tons.
One day the greenies will wake up to this and go nuts about ultra long haul.

[BuzzBox]

As I recall it, the extra burn per ton for B744 SYD-DFW was about 650Kg/ton uplifted.

The A350 is a lot more fuel efficient than that ol' gas guzzler. On an 11 hour LHR-HKG sector, the correction is around 230 kg/tonne.

[dr dre]

12 A350 frames would be about 100ish Captains. Any speculation how senior these slots would likely go? ie don't hold out if your number isn't < 300

It’ll be some years before the first slots are even out. The A380 is still a higher category aircraft, so the A350 positions would go junior to 300. And with the 787 still there, and a number of 330s as well (their numbers will start declining soon but with movement to other fleets I’d imagine there’ll still be a need to train onto the aircraft for a while) in a few years we really could start to see some quite junior LH commands.

A321 commands could be enticing for senior WB FOs (or those not wanting to endure the dodgy seat back on the 73) or even those 65+ bidding back with an easier conversion compared to 73.

The numbers of over 65s who return to SH has always been small. The fact the 321 would be doing quite a bit of BoC with less opportunities for inflight rest and the usual busy domestic flying would not be that enticing for a long time long hauler. Coming back to multi sector days, aircraft swaps, quick turnarounds, battling weather, MELs, delays non stop is usually not the desire right before retirement.

[AQIS Boigu]

With all the excitement nobody has mentioned anything about B scale for new joiners

[Potsie Weber]

12 A350 frames would be about 100ish Captains. Any speculation how senior these slots would likely go? ie don't hold out if your number isn't < 300

A321 commands could be enticing for senior WB FOs (or those not wanting to endure the dodgy seat back on the 73) or even those 65+ bidding back with an easier conversion compared to 73.

The first 90 slots on the A330/A350 SFF are reserved to existing A330 crew (stated in the EA). The company also said there is no cross bidding B787 to A330/A350 and vice versa. If vacancies were out today for a Sydney only base, you could see Captains with seniority up to the 500s

[morno]

QF royalty is likely boarding the plane in Perth so they can have a jolly.

Having QF staff depart from France was likely a bit risky Covid wise.

Well I don’t think it’d be much of a jolly, when the back is only full of test equipment and a few economy seats with no wall lining.

Good to finally see Qantas order some new aircraft though, hope it translates into some movement for you all.

[C441]

Interestingly I was told recently that the A380 positions may not necessarily go to the most senior. (I'm not privy to lists anymore so can only go on what I'm told.)
Most senior 330 pilots want the 350 slots, 737 pilots want a 330 or 787 (depending upon lifestyle domestic vs international & Boeing familiarity), 787 mob happy to stay there, leaving some of the more senior mid-range 330 pilots (say number 40-80 on type) the opportunity to jag a 380 with a relatively comfortable conversion and more time at home than they get now.…..

[Brakerider]

The numbers of over 65s who return to SH has always been small. The fact the 321 would be doing quite a bit of BoC with less opportunities for inflight rest and the usual busy domestic flying would not be that enticing for a long time long hauler. Coming back to multi sector days, aircraft swaps, quick turnarounds, battling weather, MELs, delays non stop is usually not the desire right before retirement.

Will Over 65s be able to return to SH if the 321 is doing longer haul flying?

[For goodness sake]

Isn't it slightly ironic that an empty 1000 is flying to perth and not direct to Sydney (presuming it will head straight there after perth)?
They would have been timing the SYD arrival for the scenic/promotional arrival and photography over Sydney Harbour. Morning sun on the Opera House Sails... Also probably the fuel calculation made sense.

[mickjoebill]

I read a pollie claiming sunrise flights can only operate from Kingsford Smith, because the runway at the new Western airport is too short.
True?
Mjb

[Lapon]

I read a pollie claiming sunrise flights can only operate from Kingsford Smith, because the runway at the new Western airport is too short.
True?
Mjb

At 3700 metres long its hard to imagine runway length being an issue

[For goodness sake]

Runway 34L at SYD is 3962m. The A350-1000 still has the same MTOW even if most of it is kerosene. So if QF1 LHR direct can only use that runway and not one 262m shorter at Western SYD Qantas better do a rethink on safety margins. Hahaha...

[davidclarke]

Not sure how true it is, but there is a rumour going around that Airbus can’t certify the A350 centre tank modifications required for project sunrise. Could project sunrise become project sunset?

[cloudsurfng]

A321 commands could be enticing for senior WB FOs (or those not wanting to endure the dodgy seat back on the 73) or even those 65+ bidding back with an easier conversion compared to 73.


WB FO’s who think they are waiting for a 321 CMD could be in for a rude shock if they haven’t read the SHEA. I’m unsure when the variation went through so perhaps it was all a bit of an unknown when this post was made.

every 321 CMD and FO slot (apart from the management stooges and initial trainers) will be taken by a current 737 pilot.

for everyone’s sake I hope the rumours around the centre tank are false, but it would be funny as to see Alan’s baby get flushed down the drain. I’m sure we’ll still get 350’s anyway, and I’m sure QF has negotiated significant penalties if Airbus can’t get the thing flying

[BuzzBox]

Not sure how true it is, but there is a rumour going around that Airbus can’t certify the A350 centre tank modifications required for project sunrise. Could project sunrise become project sunset?

Aren't the mods the same as those already certified for the -900ULR operated by SQ?

[maggot]

WB FO’s who think they are waiting for a 321 CMD could be in for a rude shock if they haven’t read the SHEA. I’m unsure when the variation went through so perhaps it was all a bit of an unknown when this post was made.

every 321 CMD and FO slot (apart from the management stooges and initial trainers) will be taken by a current 737 pilot.

for everyone’s sake I hope the rumours around the centre tank are false, but it would be funny as to see Alan’s baby get flushed down the drain. I’m sure we’ll still get 350’s anyway, and I’m sure QF has negotiated significant penalties if Airbus can’t get the thing flying

First 20 321s are slated domestic
Seems that over 65s will be 'allowed' on fleet since it's domestic. The regional configured jets will be additional to these and will do near Asia etc - meaning any over 65s will be automatically be given all the nice daylight domestic flying and the rest do all the BOC 2 crew home flights.

[morno]

WB FO’s who think they are waiting for a 321 CMD could be in for a rude shock if they haven’t read the SHEA. I’m unsure when the variation went through so perhaps it was all a bit of an unknown when this post was made.

every 321 CMD and FO slot (apart from the management stooges and initial trainers) will be taken by a current 737 pilot.

for everyone’s sake I hope the rumours around the centre tank are false, but it would be funny as to see Alan’s baby get flushed down the drain. I’m sure we’ll still get 350’s anyway, and I’m sure QF has negotiated significant penalties if Airbus can’t get the thing flying

That’s assuming they get enough takers from the 737. Given it’s only 20 to begin with, good chance that a lot of crew will be happy to continue on the 737 for the time being.

[cLeArIcE]

That’s assuming they get enough takers from the 737. Given it’s only 20 to begin with, good chance that a lot of crew will be happy to continue on the 737 for the time being.
Im assuming that the flying will be a mix of Sydney Melbourne Brisbane Perth with Asia over nights etc? If so can't see people that do open/ Over time to earn the $$ on the 737 rushing across. Can't be much overtime on offer spending half your life in hotel in Asia.

[cloudsurfng]

That’s assuming they get enough takers from the 737. Given it’s only 20 to begin with, good chance that a lot of crew will be happy to continue on the 737 for the time being.

possibly. However there are also a lot of RHS to LHS changes happening who aren’t subject to a freeze, and who may wish to lock in a seat early on. Quite possible the commands will initially go to fairly junior crew.

[dejapoo]

Im assuming that the flying will be a mix of Sydney Melbourne Brisbane Perth with Asia over nights etc? If so can't see people that do open/ Over time to earn the $$ on the 737 rushing across. Can't be much overtime on offer spending half your life in hotel in Asia.

Min daily credit actually. Fluctuates but a smidg over 5 hrs credit a day atm

[dejapoo]

[QUOTE=maggot;11465856]First 20 321s are slated domestic
Seems that over 65s will be 'allowed' on fleet since it's domestic. The regional configured jets will be additional to these and will do near Asia etc - meaning any over 65s will be automatically be given all the nice daylight domestic flying and the rest do all the BOC 2 crew QUOTE]

Nice daylight domestic flying hahaha.... omg what is that?

[maggot]

[QUOTE=maggot;11465856]First 20 321s are slated domestic
Seems that over 65s will be 'allowed' on fleet since it's domestic. The regional configured jets will be additional to these and will do near Asia etc - meaning any over 65s will be automatically be given all the nice daylight domestic flying and the rest do all the BOC 2 crew QUOTE]

Nice daylight domestic flying hahaha.... omg what is that?
Airbus, trunk routes, 1/2 legs to perf etc

Vs flying overnight, I'd take it.

My point is there will be a distorted bidding system with over 65s on that fleet unlike the 737 which has only a few restricted routes for the old farts

[maggot]

That’s assuming they get enough takers from the 737. Given it’s only 20 to begin with, good chance that a lot of crew will be happy to continue on the 737 for the time being.

The amendment was written carefully for qf to minimise their training costs and establish the fleet where they want it. They'll manipulate the scenario to accomplish imo.

[Beer Baron]

WB FO’s who think they are waiting for a 321 CMD could be in for a rude shock if they haven’t read the SHEA. I’m unsure when the variation went through so perhaps it was all a bit of an unknown when this post was made.

every 321 CMD and FO slot (apart from the management stooges and initial trainers) will be taken by a current 737 pilot.
This is almost certainly incorrect.
The only A321 slots that 737 pilots have priority over are Reserved Vacancies. Reserved Vacancies will be created when the company determine there will be a corresponding surplus on the 737 and vacancies on the A321. However, in the latest allocation, nearly 100 B737 pilots were awarded transfer into Long Haul, these future transfers will soak up the vast majority of any future 737 surplus. As such, there will be no need for a significant amount of Reserved Vacancies and these positions will be available for the most senior bidder.

Additionally, the company has indicated that the 737’s won’t be initially reduced 1:1 with incoming 321’s, there will be a net increase in airframes and training on a new type will proceed reductions in 737 establishment. This all means there is less likelihood of a large 737 surplus so less requirement for Reserved Vacancies.

That being said, anything is possible.