Toddlers Flying

[rotorfun]

Hi everyone. I have a 20-month old daughter. We took her flying when she was about 17 months old. She didn't mind the flight, but she really struggled to keep her headsets on. I'm worried if she takes them off it may damage her ears. Any suggestions or experience with this? Hoping by the time she is 2 or 2.5 that it won't be as much of an issue...?

We've tried basic children's headphones that one would use for lawn mowing, etc., and have also tried the bose A20 hoping that if she could hear me she'd want to keep them on, but that certainly was not the case.

I take her every few weeks right now to the helicopter to just sit in it on the ground and practice wearing headsets, but she takes them off after a a few seconds.

[albatross]

JOKE Headsets? Why. bother? In 10 years she’ll no longer be listening to you anyway! JOKE OVER.
. Hope you find a solution and post what it is. Earplugs or earbuds until.such time as she will accept the headset perhaps?
What is the DB level in your aircraft? Perhaps your aviation Dr. or her Dr can provide insight.
I woluld be more concerned later on as she blasts music from. her Iphone through headphones at DB levels that would stun a rat at 50 paces.

[B2N2]

The solution is to stop taking toddlers.
Who are you really doing this for?
Your fun and enjoyment and the oh-so-cute factor?
A child that young clearly has no concept of why is going on.
Wait till they’re 5-6-7 and show interest and can follow basic instructions and they have an idea of what’s happening.
This may sound harsh but think about it.
Wearing ear protection clearly causes discomfort to a child that can’t articulate it.

[rotorfun]

The solution is to stop taking toddlers.
Who are you really doing this for?
Your fun and enjoyment and the oh-so-cute factor?
A child that young clearly has no concept of why is going on.
Wait till they’re 5-6-7 and show interest and can follow basic instructions and they have an idea of what’s happening.
This may sound harsh but think about it.
Wearing ear protection clearly causes discomfort to a child that can’t articulate it.

Mostly so that I can still go flying on weekends and don't leave my wife at home with all the kids. Clearly it is expected that having kids would make it more difficult to go flying, but was hopeful that it I would be able to take her with me on a weekend trip to give my wife a break.

[rotorfun]

JOKE Headsets? Why. bother? In 10 years she’ll no longer be listening to you anyway! JOKE OVER.
. Hope you find a solution and post what it is. Earplugs or earbuds until.such time as she will accept the headset perhaps?
What is the DB level in your aircraft? Perhaps your aviation Dr. or her Dr can provide insight.
I woluld be more concerned later on as she blasts music from. her Iphone through headphones at DB levels that would stun a rat at 50 paces.

Earplugs is a good idea. She never takes her toque off so could perhaps try the earplugs underneath a toque.

Bell 505 so I think its around 90dB but I've never tested it myself. I've taken my helmet off in flight before and it is uncomfortably loud for me.

[Gordy]

Duct tape..... Staples....

Hat, coat.....

[helonorth]

The solution is to stop taking toddlers.
Who are you really doing this for?
Your fun and enjoyment and the oh-so-cute factor?
A child that young clearly has no concept of why is going on.
Wait till they’re 5-6-7 and show interest and can follow basic instructions and they have an idea of what’s happening.
This may sound harsh but think about it.
Wearing ear protection clearly causes discomfort to a child that can’t articulate it.
I would agree. If you can afford a helicopter, you can afford a baby sitter or drop them off at the grandparents.

[Squawk7700]

Leave the kid at home.

Also, if something goes wrong, will the kid be able to safely exit the helicopter on their own before it catches on fire or sinks in the ocean? Can they open a door and inflate their life jacket?

[rotorfun]

Leave the kid at home.

Also, if something goes wrong, will the kid be able to safely exit the helicopter on their own before it catches on fire or sinks in the ocean? Can they open a door and inflate their life jacket?

The risk of injury or fatality is far greater in a car than in a helicopter. This is not really a concern to me.

But it does seem the collective opinion here is not to bring her for a bit.

[BigMike]

I wouldn't worry about it. I think you will find the noise level is not enough to cause any concern if flights are infrequent.
l have found most small kids/toddlers fall asleep pretty quickly once airborne. I did however once have a 5 year old on a vip transfer demand to her parents that we land immediately, big temper tantrum. We were 20 NM offshore at the time...

[John Eacott]

Our daughter first flew in a helicopter when she was just one year old, in a Bell 212. She was already used to fixed wing and a suitable set of ear defenders was not a problem, following a bit of fun play wearing them around the house. Don't deny your family the memories down the track, take your kid(s) along whenever you can as they do remember with a few photos in later years :ok:

After BigMike 's comment about landing, I did learn a lesson a few years later when she was in the back alone and had a major meltdown when she dropped a packet of Cheezles on the floor. Farmer's paddock landing, mate in the front hopped out and retrieved the snack, off we went again :p

[SLFMS]

A child that young needs an adult as direct supervision. There is no two ways about it and you as the pilot do not qualify. What are you going to do if the child undoes the seat belt and starts playing with the door handle. 2 year olds are much more capable than 18 months at causing mayhem. If the child can’t keep a headset on they are not ready to fly. If they can they still need another adult as supervision. As PIC frankly this should not need to be explained.
Not the answer it sounds like you want to hear no matter how much you want that to happen.

[B2N2]

Memories yes, my earliest memories of flight are from about 5-6, part of the reason I’m a pilot now.
Not from 18 months and surely not from the first time I flew which was at 6 weeks :E
Rotor-fun, flying is your fun, take the time to enjoy yourself and recharge your batteries for another week of saving toddlers from killing themselves. Go alone or bring an adult rotor buddy.
Enjoy.

[Agile]

My younger kid also could not keep the headset on the head, the noise factor actually keep them quiet and behaved.
Invariably they get drowsy by 9700ft, sound asleep as we pass 10,000ft,. back awake like nothing hapenned as we pass back below 10Kft.
So precise, it could serve as my standby altimeter.

[B2N2]

Afterthought, a child that young can’t clear their ears consciously or indicate motion sickness.
Or being too hot or too cold.
Lots of reasons.

[Squawk7700]

The risk of injury or fatality is far greater in a car than in a helicopter. This is not really a concern to me.



Safer in a privately flown helicopter than a car?

I think you’re crunching the numbers in your favour on that one!

[ShyTorque]

You certainly get your money’s worth here on PPRuNe.

Ask a simple question and get criticised and told how to run your life. :rolleyes:

[Evil Twin]

Man, you people need to get out more and enjoy life.

Good on ya mate for taking the family flying, they will have some fantastic memories. And I'll put my hard hat on ready for the incoming.

[John Eacott]

Man, you people need to get out more and enjoy life.

Good on ya mate for taking the family flying, they will have some fantastic memories. And I'll put my hard hat on ready for the incoming.

You certainly get your money’s worth here on PPRuNe.

Ask a simple question and get criticised and told how to run your life. :rolleyes:

Agree 110%. My kids can remember flights when they were very young, but as I said with the help of photos at the time. Basic common sense seems to have slipped by some of those posting here, and the value of family time also not always appreciated. rotorfun just go ahead and do it and let your wife and daughter be with you :ok:


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1564x1027/nikki0029_66d28db3ce48cded6c6541151adad8e2b7fd4ace.jpg

[Rotorbee]

If you for example live in Alaska, taking your children at any age flying isn't even a question. It's just normal. You are not the first, with this problem.
If the child is in a good car seat, it can not open the restraint. It is designed like that. But there aren't many planes with isofix (none as far as I know).
As it is with adults, some kids like it, some could not care less, some hate it. At my first flight as the proud helicopter pilot dad, one slept, the other needed to go after half an hour. As long as they don't hate it, you'r good.
Therefore, going flying with the kids should just be normal. Who knows, one day, your daughter asks for the hangar key, instead the car key, and then you will be happy ...
Here is some information that might help:
http://thefamilyairplane.com/aviation-headsets-for-kids/

[pilotmike]

Duct tape..... Staples....

Hat, coat.....
There was never an issue with her taking off her hat or her coat, just the headset. I suppose the staples and tape could be used to help keep them on, but surely there are more humane ways to try first?

[pilotmike]

Agree 110%. My kids can remember flights when they were very young, but as I said with the help of photos at the time. Basic common sense seems to have slipped by some of those posting here, and the value of family time also not always appreciated. rotorfun just go ahead and do it and let your wife and daughter be with you :ok:

So how come there's only one smiling face out of 5 in that photo. The younger ones look miserable as F to be there!

[Squawk7700]

Young children in Alaska fly in aircraft because they have to, because the aircraft is the family car. Flying a private aircraft for your own enjoyment and taking a child that will never remember the flight at 18 months, is not the same. Leave the kid at home and you’ll have far more fun, assuming someone is there to look after said child. When they are 5 and know how to get out in an emergency, then take them flying.

[albatross]

I had one friend who used to drive to the pad, place child in the helicopter and start it up and idle for 10-15 minutes.
It was a move of desperation and a last resort but sometimes was the only way to get her to sleep.
This went on perhaps 2 times a week for a couple of months before the baby started sleeping normally. The Base Engineer always advised him which machine was the designated “cradle” for the night.

Thread drift.
There have certain moments that I sincerely wished that children under 15 were forbidden on all airliners.
Nothing like 11 hours London to Asia with 3 or 4 out of control hellions causing chaos while the oblivious parents do nothing.
Worst I ever saw was a mother sitting in a centre row pull down the tray table and proceed to change the baby thereupon much to the surprise and horror of her fellow non-related passengers. The smell was so bad people were gagging. The non-occupied lavatory was 3 rows away.
Close second was another mother ringing for the flight attendant, then proffer the baby and a fresh diaper and demand that she change the baby. This kind offer was politely declined.

[B2N2]

Trying to argue that toddlers have any sort of memory is just silly.
Oh yeah they loved it! You could just as easily say they were terrified and you wouldn’t know any different.
Until they have a basic understanding it’s like dressing up your pets. You think it’s cute they just want to sleep and poop.

[RMK]

Pay no attention to the “life-is-hard” salary jockey types above. Unfortunately, there is no online forum for private helicopter pilots, so we mix in on forums/groups such as this. They don’t seem to understand that helicopters can be used for fun/pleasure.

Both of my sons have been flying in the helicopter since 3 months old; they’re now 9yrs and 15yrs respectively and still enjoy flying. Up to around age three, they sat in the back (of course in cars seats of varying sizes) with Mummy attending. From age 3yrs, they’d sit up front with me. From around age 5yrs, I started taking them out with their friends and have flown many children over the years.

At around 18-20mo, they don’t want anything on their head and may try to take it off (like a sun hat at the beach), but this will quickly stop and not be a problem going forward.

At that age they always nod off asleep and you can fit the headset on them once asleep. Also everyone else aboard can make a fuss about putting on their own headsets – they like to emulate actions. Also, tilt the mic boom up and out of the way so they can’t see it. You could even connect some music to their headset.

[BigMike]

As meantioned, a car seat is a good idea. Isofix not needed if seat has "click tight" feature. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DvchkDWPPcM
Nothing wrong with taking the kids, just need to be controlled.

[Dennis at Enstrom]

I grew up flying with my Dad. If we had headsets, they were junk. I wouldn't give up a minute of it because it was time with my Dad, but I'm paying the price now (age 46) with hearing issues and have been for many years.

So when I had kids I was determined not to make the same mistakes. I purchased a set of "youth" headsets, but it was pretty obvious they were just cheap copies of standard headsets with a small mic boom. Earcups, headbands, etc... were all the same. I also ran into the same problem as the OP, which as that up until about age 3 the kids wouldn't keep them on. After a couple of flights it become clear that I was spending too much time being Dad, and not enough time being PIC.

Ultimately my solution was not to fly with them unless another adult was along to manage the kids. That doesn't mean that I ignored them, but it allowed me to focus on flying when focusing on flying mattered. I know this doesn't solve the OP's problem of giving Mom a break, and it wasn't convenient for my family either, but it's what needed to happen. The good news is they grow up fast. (Later on you'll realize that's not so great.) At about age 3 things get easier on that front and they are manageable in the plane/helicopter.

A few other pro tips:

1. As mentioned above, the youth headsets are by and large junk. Just give them a set of Bose or DC's. My kids have big heads (no surprise, they are a pilot's kids) and the standard headsets worked for them at a young age.
2. As others have mentioned, the kids don't care if they are in a helicopter, airplane, car, etc... They will generally react the same in all vehicles. Don't expect any grand moments, or epiphanies. Usually they fall asleep. Extra points if you can land without waking them up.
3. Know where the pilot isolate switch is on your audio panel. This will come in especially handy when your daughter starts singing songs from Frozen at the exact moment ATC calls.
4. Four year olds are indifferent to airspace, and if you let your preschooler fly she will bust Class C as you're fumbling with your phone taking photos.
5. Bring some toys out to the hanger. Not only will the kids like going to the airport, but it will distract them during preflight so you can do your thing. Otherwise they will climb inside, slam the controls around, and flip all the switches.
6. Most car seats are designed for cars (duh!). Car seat belts latch on the side of the lap, while by and large aircraft seatbelts latch in the middle. This means that using the belts to hold car seat in can be a challenge. There are little clips that can be used to shorten one side, but they don't always work out that great and are a pain. Eventually I just put the buckle in the middle and stuffed in the padding in the back of the seat. The kids never even mentioned it, must less complained.

[SLFMS]

I grew up flying with my Dad. If we had headsets, they were junk. I wouldn't give up a minute of it because it was time with my Dad, but I'm paying the price now (age 46) with hearing issues and have been for many years.

So when I had kids I was determined not to make the same mistakes. I purchased a set of "youth" headsets, but it was pretty obvious they were just cheap copies of standard headsets with a small mic boom. Earcups, headbands, etc... were all the same. I also ran into the same problem as the OP, which as that up until about age 3 the kids wouldn't keep them on. After a couple of flights it become clear that I was spending too much time being Dad, and not enough time being PIC.

Ultimately my solution was not to fly with them unless another adult was along to manage the kids. That doesn't mean that I ignored them, but it allowed me to focus on flying when focusing on flying mattered. I know this doesn't solve the OP's problem of giving Mom a break, and it wasn't convenient for my family either, but it's what needed to happen. The good news is they grow up fast. (Later on you'll realize that's not so great.) At about age 3 things get easier on that front and they are manageable in the plane/helicopter.

A few other pro tips:

1. As mentioned above, the youth headsets are by and large junk. Just give them a set of Bose or DC's. My kids have big heads (no surprise, they are a pilot's kids) and the standard headsets worked for them at a young age.
2. As others have mentioned, the kids don't care if they are in a helicopter, airplane, car, etc... They will generally react the same in all vehicles. Don't expect any grand moments, or epiphanies. Usually they fall asleep. Extra points if you can land without waking them up.
3. Know where the pilot isolate switch is on your audio panel. This will come in especially handy when your daughter starts singing songs from Frozen at the exact moment ATC calls.
4. Four year olds are indifferent to airspace, and if you let your preschooler fly she will bust Class C as you're fumbling with your phone taking photos.
5. Bring some toys out to the hanger. Not only will the kids like going to the airport, but it will distract them during preflight so you can do your thing. Otherwise they will climb inside, slam the controls around, and flip all the switches.
6. Most car seats are designed for cars (duh!). Car seat belts latch on the side of the lap, while by and large aircraft seatbelts latch in the middle. This means that using the belts to hold car seat in can be a challenge. There are little clips that can be used to shorten one side, but they don't always work out that great and are a pain. Eventually I just put the buckle in the middle and stuffed in the padding in the back of the seat. The kids never even mentioned it, must less complained.


Great post Dennis. I am quite amazed how indifferent people are on this thread to the child’s hearing, which was the original question. Who knows what the long effects to hearing are at such a young age. If it was my child that’s not something worth compromising so I can steadfastly continue with pre kid lifestyle.
At the risk of not sounding “fun” I stand by my comment you need another adult as supervision for a child so young. As PIC you need to be focused without distraction. It’s not just about replacing the headsets.
There will be plenty of time later for Daddy/Daughter fun away trips.

Incidentally there is no chance it’s safer in a private helicopter over been in a car. Best to be realistic there.

[Radgirl]

Sticking to hearing, 85dB is normally taken as the level that causes permanent damage but many of my ENT colleagues think it is lower - 80 - and as this is a log scale that is of concern. Hearing loss in children is often missed resulting in educational and developmental issues, and normal reduced acuity later in life from osicular sclerosis will be accumulative condemning them to significant disability and increased risk of dementia. I really would not fly a child until they are old enough to fit and wear good quality headsets.

[rotorfun]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I'm waiting on my noise level monitor to arrive from Amazon so I can find out at least the dB reading in the helicopter. Then will consult a pediatrician as to damaging noise levels. I'm still determined to take her flying, but really only once she gets better at wearing her headsets. I'm able to put my car seat in the back, and also bought this for when she is slightly older: https://www.amsafe.com/kidsflysafe-com/.

I still don't buy that private helicopters are more dangerous that cars. I'll make some assumptions, but the numbers are so grossly in favor of helicopters that it doesn't much matter how accurate the couple assumptions are.

The fatal car accident rate is about 40,000 deaths per 100,000,000 miles driven.
Let's assume that the average speed is 40 miles per hour.
This means there are about 40,000 deaths for every 2,500,000 hours driven, or 1,600 deaths per 100,000 hours driven.
The fatality rate of all helicopters is 0.72 fatalities per 100,000 hours flown.
Private helicopters account for 3% of flight hours, but 25% of the accidents.
Just to lay the math out, 25% of the fatalities is 0.18 and 3% of the flight hours is 3,000 hours.
This means that the fatality rate of private helicopters is 6 per 100,000 hours flown.


This ignores the fact that helicopters travel at higher speeds on average than cars (for private helicopters). If you adjust for that, it's even more in favor of private helicopters vs cars.

The most dangerous part about me taking my daughter flying is the fact that I have to drive her to the airport first.

[albatross]

This may be of help.
https://www.asha.org/public/hearing/loud-noise-dangers/

Exposure duration seems to be an important consideration.“Sound-level meters measure noise levels. We record noise levels in decibels, or dBA. The higher the noise level, the louder the noise. You can listen to sounds at 70 dBA or lower for as long as you want. Sounds at 85 dBA can lead to hearing loss if you listen to them for more than 8 hours at a time.

Sounds over 85 dBa can damage your hearing faster. The safe listening time is cut in half for every 3-dB rise in noise levels over 85 dBA. For example, you can listen to sounds at 85 dBA for up to 8 hours. If the sound goes up to 88 dBA, it is safe to listen to those same sounds for 4 hours. And if the sound goes up to 91 dBA, your safe listening time is down to 2 hours.”

There are also free Db meters available for Iphone and Ipad onthe APP Store. Many are free or very low cost.
It would be best to measure as close to the Toddler’s head location as possible.

[Petit-Lion]

The fatal car accident rate is about 40,000 deaths per 100,000,000 miles driven.
You might consider double-checking that.

The topic (flying babies) is abundantly discussed in many FW aviation forums. Noise level and seat arrangement are not that different.
Slightly off-topic, when flying dogs (whether pets or rescue dogs) how do you care of their very sensitive hearing?

[pilotmike]

... I'll make some assumptions... it doesn't much matter how accurate the couple [sic] assumptions are...

The fatal car accident rate is about 40,000 deaths per 100,000,000 miles driven.

This means there are about 40,000 deaths for every 2,500,000 hours driven, or 1,600 deaths per 100,000 hours driven.

I fully agree with Petit-Lion above. When trying to convince one's self of something which really doesn't stand up to scrutiny, almost any presentation of fictitious statistics can appear tempting to try to support a badly flawed hypothesis.

With such a laughable claimed car fatality rate of one death for every every 2,500 miles or 62 hours of driving, most drivers would barely last a month or two at that rate. Was there really no simple checking done before posting such ridiculous figures, trying to prop up an opinion which can at best only be described as highly suspect? The true figures are most likely to show the complete opposite of what was being claimed.

If indeed rotorfun's driving is so dangerous that they fit that statistic, then they have hit the nail on the head with the stand-out conclusion:
The most dangerous part about me taking my daughter flying is the fact that I have to drive her to the airport first.
Let's hope for everyone's sake that their flying is better than their driving or their use of statistics! ;)