Too late for 2022?

[FrothyFriday]

Hi Gents,

Smashed out a couple hundred hours over the east coast during lockdown after finishing my CPL and trying my luck in Darwin. Have sent resumes to all my contacts but haven't had an offer worth taking yet.. Just wondering if it's too late to head up and knock on some doors for the coming season. Hoping to get in and out asap.

Cheers
FF

[invertedpancake]

Hey mate in a similar boat having just got up here last month. I’ve had a chat to a few of the guys who have been up here for a few months and they’re seen some decent movement and joy.

Apparently a few people have had some success after doing one of the ga ready courses. So that may be a useful option.

I imagine with all the airlines hiring at the moment things should only improve.

[Pendingclearance]

Just get up there and give it a crack mate. There’s no timing involved it’s 75% just walking through the right door on the right day and knowing your stuff.
If your inclination is to do a GA course that may open a couple doors within the group of companies that offers the course, just make sure you do it in Darwin if you do (vs the courses offered down south).

[Icarus2001]

I would be interested to hear what is contained in a “GA ready course”. Thanks.

[SixDemonBag]

I would be interested to hear what is contained in a “GA ready course”. Thanks.

you have to live in a shipping container and eat rice for a month

[hillbillybob]

and fly clapped out cessnas that may be older than your parents

[runway16]

'GA Ready' means several things. The main meaning is that a pilot is ready to start operating the next day without having to be re-trained to be able to be a commercial pilot.
These days the flight schools, in particular the sausage factories, get a pilot to CPL stage but few take it to a point where the new CPL holder is really ready for CPL work. There is an expectation that the new employer will do all that but at his expense. One or two firms offer GA Ready courses. What does that mean?
having time in an aircraft that is the type that GA Charter firms operate. Having a Dangerous Goods Awareness Certificate. Having done a water course with a life jacket on regardless if you are at Alice Springs (get some photos to show that you got wet!). Maybe having a First Aid course under your belt and a certificate to show that. Do you have a small bus drivers ticket such that you can drive the customers from their motel to the ready aircraft and drive them back afterwards. Being able to turn up for work in a clean pressed shirt and shiny boots even if they will be dusty before the day is out.
Having done some time in a workshop and able to change the engine oil and filter - and sign that off on the MR!. Turning up for work so that the flight gets away at XX time and not a half hour late. Have a smile on your face when you greet the customers, the people who will be paying your salary. Being able to convince the customers that you as a pilot will get them there and back in one piece and on time. Do you have time landing at dirt and grass strips? Do you have an awareness of what to be careful with landing at one of those strips. Can you do a trim sheet quick smart? Being able to have enough fuel for the flight and a reserve but not always departing on full tanks. A real worry for rookies. Can you fly on charts as well as an ipad or glass screen for navigation. Do you have a plan B on paper or in mind in case there is an issue. Can you look after an aircraft and no expect the next pilot to clean it and top the oil and fuel up. Do you know how to tie an aircraft down properly? Do you have a NVFR ticket and night time flying in case you get back on dusk/after dark? Do you know the last light at the destination for the day? Can you operate independently and not expect to be spoon fed? An operations manager can only do so much and that does not include wiping your nether regions. Are you familiar with the aircraft type that you will be operating? Knowing the usable fuel capacity. Not over or under filling the oil. Is the machine 12 or 24 volts? Having a mobile phone that will operate in that area. having remote area experience. Able to refill from a 200 litre drum. No pump? How do you get around that? having a few very basic tools of your own in the aircraft.
Having enough experience to be able to fly commercially. That is simple but not always the case with new CPL holders.
The list could go on.
Not having an attitude that now you have a CPL that a charter operator owes you a job!
Commercial operators please add to the above.

[tossbag]

If the above needs to be taught in a "GA Ready" course after you've completed CPL training I think you're a little beyond aviation employment. Probably best looking for other work.

[Lead Balloon]

A bit tough there, tossbag, IMO.

Does the average flying school arrange for its students to get a small bus licence? I doubt it, but I reckon it’s a very useful qualification for many ‘outback’ GA commercial pilots to have.

What about doing an oil and oil filter change? I reckon it’s a very useful competence for many ‘outback’ GA commercial pilots to have, but also reckon there are many pilots who shouldn’t be let loose with any tool much pointier than a pencil!

[tossbag]

A bit tough there, tossbag, IMO.

Yeah, maybe so but:

- Being able to turn up for work in a clean pressed shirt and shiny boots even if they will be dusty before the day is out.
- Turning up for work so that the flight gets away at XX time and not a half hour late.
- Have a smile on your face when you greet the customers, the people who will be paying your salary.
- Being able to convince the customers that you as a pilot will get them there and back in one piece and on time.
- Can you do a trim sheet quick smart?
- Being able to have enough fuel for the flight and a reserve but not always departing on full tanks. A real worry for rookies.
- Can you fly on charts as well as an ipad or glass screen for navigation.
- Do you have a plan B on paper or in mind in case there is an issue.
- Can you look after an aircraft and no expect the next pilot to clean it and top the oil and fuel up.
- Do you know how to tie an aircraft down properly?
- Do you know the last light at the destination for the day?
- Can you operate independently and not expect to be spoon fed?
- Not having an attitude that now you have a CPL that a charter operator owes you a job!

If you need an additional course after a CPL to learn the above....................

[morno]

How ever did we do it in the old days :rolleyes::ugh:

[Mach E Avelli]

In the old days we had employers who had come up the hard way themselves. They told us or taught us what was needed. Most also had the decency to cover our costs if they required some extra approval, like changing spark plugs or tyres, and had the commonsense to send us out on our first one or two trips with a supervisory pilot. Anyone who did not scrub up was not invited to stay.
Seems to me these ‘GA Ready’ wankathons are more about spoon feeding operators who are incapable of running basic induction. Is proper induction not an operator responsibility in aviation? It sure as hell is in most industries these days.

[compressor stall]

Bloody hell. There has never been a better time to be a newby pilot looking for a first job in the last 25 years. Probably 30.

if you need help getting a first / junior job now, from what I’m hearing from within industry and seeing advertised about the place, I’d respectfully say you might need to reassess things.

[Capt Fathom]

Looks like another way of extracting money by dangling the proverbial ‘you won’t work for us without doing this course.’

Generally, you would just get checked out by the boss then spend a week with another pilot while you got your bearings.

[tossbag]

Most also had the decency to cover our costs if they required some extra approval

Yep, I left all of that stuff out of my reply. Bus ticket, first aid, dangerous goods...............where does it end with this stuff?

[Flying Bear]

Many of the points above, criticising GA Ready courses, are quite valid - but they rely on the notion that newly minted CPLs are trained by experienced Instructors, rather than last year’s graduates who are simply chasing hours…

Let me assure you, as one who runs these courses, that I wish I did not have to…

Let me also assure you, that a city kid who is the product of a so-called airline academy / sausage factory, who has learnt to fly in a Diamond or similar from a kid who hasn’t flown anywhere other than the Jandakot circuit, is absolutely not ready for work in GA.

Whatever happened to schools teaching the right attitudes for the workplace?

Mostly gone… hence GA Ready - our mechanism to try and keep our charter operations from being exploited by the grossly underprepared.

[Checkboard]

Does your GA Ready course include a session on understanding Award pay rates?

[tossbag]

Does your GA Ready course include a session on understanding Award pay rates?

The employer?

[Flying Bear]

Does your GA Ready course include a session on understanding Award pay rates?

we generally find the young ones are well versed in those already - entitlements more so than obligations…

But to address your point - absolutely. We are fairly strong in our advice that junior pilots should not work for less than entitled conditions and explain some of the “tricks” that are commonly used - some legal, others not…

However, at the same time we advocate that they should give above themselves as they see fit - because they need to establish their own professional reputation / credibility and secure a recommendation for the next step in their career. The first flying job should be seen by the junior pilot as an investment in their future - put in the hard yards, reap the rewards of that when they are seen as an attractive proposition by the next bigger operator. May not seem fair, but that’s the reality - let’s face it, it’s not just some small GA operators that exploit the labour market…

The idea of building credibility is something very valuable that is not an Award entitlement.

[Giraffesarecool]

Mostly gone… hence GA Ready - our mechanism to try and keep our charter operations from being exploited by the grossly underprepared.

If you can't weed out "grossly underprepared" pilots during an interview/check flight and instead direct them to your flight training business that's a bit dubious.

When your companies require the paid course before employment that's downright shady.

[runway16]

Tossbag .........

If you need an additional course after a CPL to learn the above....................

Maybe then the newbee will pick up what the flying school did not teach them !

[tossbag]

Yeah, there's a bit of that, but flying school needs to teach a candidate to be on time with clean shoes and an ironed shirt?

[Flying Bear]

If you can't weed out "grossly underprepared" pilots during an interview/check flight and instead direct them to your flight training business that's a bit dubious.

When your companies require the paid course before employment that's downright shady.

I can see your perspective.

However, from the charter operator’s point of view it gives a good opportunity over several days to see the individual characters of the pilots as well as the obvious benefit of specific type training that is contextual to the operating environment.

Better that way, then offering applicants the nebulous BS about requiring some random amount of “200 series” time (which may or may not have actually taught the aeroplane), or total time. We take first starters, many companies won’t, and don’t care about total time or crap about “200 series”. We will train it - properly - but given the length of tenure / loyalty of most first job pilots, we’d go broke if we continuously gave it away. Guess what? You CAN’T often weed out bad attitudes based on an interview or quick “check flight”.

In my experience, the difference between a 200 hr pilot of good character and a 500 hr pilot is negligible (from a technical standpoint) - so the trick is to find junior pilots who actually care about putting in at work and helping their employer to sustain / grow their business.

Finally, the GA course is not marketed as a “buy a job with us” product - that is a label attached to it by the hopefuls based on the business processes of our other companies. Of itself, the course offers solid training and experience - and we genuinely hope (believe) that all who do it gain useful technical development.

But I’m happy to accept your judgement. BTW, for my awareness of your expertise, can you summarise your experience in personnel (pilot) management and how many pilots you have employed and given opportunity to?

[lucille]

In my experience, the difference between a 200 hr pilot of good character and a 500 hr pilot is negligible (from a technical standpoint) -

It really depends on where and how that extra 300 hours was obtained.

But yes, mostly, I get where you’re coming from, but has it ever been different? 500 hour TT instructors teaching CPL students, who themselves were taught by other 500 hour TT instructors.

How GA employers can expect a kid who has never left the city or been out of range of mummy’s apron strings to suddenly become a crusty old, self reliant bushy overnight has me scratching my head.

[Giraffesarecool]

However, from the charter operator’s point of view it gives a good opportunity over several days to see the individual characters of the pilots as well as the obvious benefit of specific type training that is contextual to the operating environment.

You just described someone paying for a job interview.

We will train it - properly - but given the length of tenure / loyalty of most first job pilots, we’d go broke if we continuously gave it away. Guess what? You CAN’T often weed out bad attitudes based on an interview or quick “check flight”.
If a company can't retain low time pilots with limited prospects that probably says more about the company than it does about the pilots.

In my experience, the difference between a 200 hr pilot of good character and a 500 hr pilot is negligible (from a technical standpoint) - so the trick is to find junior pilots who actually care about putting in at work and helping their employer to sustain / grow their business.

200 hrs to 500 hrs is 4 months. I don't agree with the idea there's negligible improvement in 4 months of flying.

Finally, the GA course is not marketed as a “buy a job with us” product - that is a label attached to it by the hopefuls based on the business processes of our other companies. Of itself, the course offers solid training and experience - and we genuinely hope (believe) that all who do it gain useful technical development.

I understand I've probably come off as a bit hostile (nice little dig in your last paragraph) but I do agree a training course like yours holds benefit.

What I don't agree with is that two companies that you control require potential employees to undertake a paid course from your own third company.

[Mach E Avelli]

200 hrs to 500 hrs is 4 months. I don't agree with the idea there's negligible improvement in 4 months of flying..

What I don't agree with is that two companies that you control require potential employees to undertake a paid course from your own third company.

Neither do I agree with such a policy, as this has 'cartel' all over it. But it's their train set, so for as long as they don't break any anti-discrimination laws they can set whatever entry rules they choose.
I wonder if a pilot turned up with 1000 hours of Cessna 206/210 time, tropical flying experience, bus licence , first aid ticket, and of course a clean pair of boots and freshly pressed shirt, would they employ him/her? Maybe not. Too many bad habits to be un-learned first, via their 'GA Ready' course.

[Flying Bear]

I wonder if a pilot turned up with 1000 hours of Cessna 206/210 time, tropical flying experience, bus licence , first aid ticket, and of course a clean pair of boots and freshly pressed shirt, would they employ him/her? Maybe not. Too many bad habits to be un-learned first, via their 'GA Ready' course.

I’d be happy to speak with them, first question would be about why they are looking at an entry-level flying job…

I’d probably also counsel them to not spend on a GA Ready course - as they need to be saving that money to pay for their A320 Type Rating so they can widen the field of airlines they can apply to get a job with…

Despite the opinions for and against GA courses, however so called, the real issue is that the standard of pilot training across the board in Australia is poor - and does not prepare pilots for industry / work. Not the pilot’s fault, but certainly not the fault of the GA operator that seems to be expected to make up the shortfall - totally at their expense.

Maybe some of the criticism / judgement here could be directed at the sausage factories?

[flyer2022]

I’d be happy to speak with them, first question would be about why they are looking at an entry-level flying job…

I’d probably also counsel them to not spend on a GA Ready course - as they need to be saving that money to pay for their A320 Type Rating so they can widen the field of airlines they can apply to get a job with…

Despite the opinions for and against GA courses, however so called, the real issue is that the standard of pilot training across the board in Australia is poor - and does not prepare pilots for industry / work. Not the pilot’s fault, but certainly not the fault of the GA operator that seems to be expected to make up the shortfall - totally at their expense.

Maybe some of the criticism / judgement here could be directed at the sausage factories?

Would you still expect a pilot trained at your school to complete a GA ready course to be considered for employment? Or does your school make up for the shortfall during training?

[Karunch]

Despite the opinions for and against GA courses, however so called, the real issue is that the standard of pilot training across the board in Australia is poor - and does not prepare pilots for industry / work. Not the pilot’s fault, but certainly not the fault of the GA operator that seems to be expected to make up the shortfall - totally at their expense.

Maybe some of the criticism / judgement here could be directed at the sausage factories?

Precisely. The poor airmanship displayed on a daily basis at Australia's GA airports demonstrates the above points graphically. Rectifying an inability to refuel from a bowser, directing propwash at other aircraft, power against brakes, high rpm on gravel, jet size circuits etc is not the role of charter operators. This is flying school domain.

The capital city schools on occasion produce airline ready candidates but GA is a specialty & training is required. I suspect most GA ready course providers would prefer the need was not there.

If we drill down to attribute blame- the sausage factory marketing, large student volumes & employment practices (dilution of experience every 2 years) & the younger generations apparent disinterest in the menial tasks of aircraft operation are significant contributors.

[172heavy]

Hi Gents,

Smashed out a couple hundred hours over the east coast during lockdown after finishing my CPL and trying my luck in Darwin. Have sent resumes to all my contacts but haven't had an offer worth taking yet.. Just wondering if it's too late to head up and knock on some doors for the coming season. Hoping to get in and out asap.

Cheers
FF
Hi mate,

Seems some GA (general abuse) individuals have turned this thread into a topic about themselves.

To answer your question... its never too late to head up north. As I was once told, every day you have a CPL and you're not in the NT is a day you're not getting a job. There is some truth in that saying, however, there are a plenty of jobs everywhere at the moment due to the movement. Most of these jobs are not being advertised as there is no requirement to waste cash on advertising when companies have inboxes full of resumes and door knockers are rivalling Jehovah's Witnesses.

Right attitude, right place and time will get you a chat. The reality is 1 out of every 10 pilots you went to flight school with will makes it to the lines, the other 9 will choose a different career or remain on 50K in GA indefinitely.

Heres the no BS run down on YPDN:

Hardys/Fly Tiwi: 800hrs + wet season and you can measure your man hood next to the rest of the wannabes at this company, that's after they give you a sim ride and set you up to fail by putting the 430 on VLOC and telling you to fly a SID. This company will feed you into the airlines, you just have to deal with the BS on the road to a right seat.

Territory Air Services known locally as TAS: Hands down the best operator in DN. They actually know how to treat people like humans. Downside is they are only really good for single hours, twin will come if you hang around long enough and like calling other operators and dobbing on their pilots like a 4 year old.

Air Frontier: good hours at one of their remote bases once line checked. Expect not to be paid for up to 3 months whilst living in your car or on the hanger floor doing the PPDC (pilot professional development course). The owner is a little more hands off since losing their medical and the company has made good progression in terms of safety over the past few years.

Flight Standards/Kakadu Air/Marthakal (elcho Island): 5K GA Ready course if you preform well with the right attitude you'll land a job, bust duty and be paid below award. Bonus points if you're a loader at Tasfast in Melbourne as you probably got a personal invitation last week to GA Ready and those points are gone if you didn't take the opportunity, welcome to the 9 who never made it.

Afarura: Haven't heard much of them since they got kicked off Groote last year but they are still around. Hot starting a continental is beyond the skills taught here.

Any company not mentioned here is worth applying to, dont forget to check out Gun Air at YOEN. Bachelor and north WA are also viable options.

"Hoping to get in and out quickly" good thing Qlink just dropped their minimums to hopes and dreams.

Good luck!

[Flying Bear]

Would you still expect a pilot trained at your school to complete a GA ready course to be considered for employment? Or does your school make up for the shortfall during training?

Absolutely.

We have employed, or facilitated placement into other companies, nearly all of the CPL holders we have trained from scratch, or pre-PPL level.

Caveat… there have not been a great deal of those (less than a dozen in five years of operations) - as most young trainee pilots can’t see past the glossy brochures of the sausage factories to consider learning yo fly in the region where they are likely to be initially employed.

But - we love employing our own trainees where we can & are happy to back our own product.

[Kundry]

If facilitated then why?

[CFD]

If its of any help, Arafura advertised yesterday.
Pilot Job - Single Engine Line Pilot (afap.org.au) (https://www.afap.org.au/pilot-jobs/pilot-job/3584/Single%20Engine%20Line%20Pilot)

[Duck Pilot]

Fact is that the standard of the average newly minted CPL holder is low with a few exceptions, those being that the pilot was trained by a good school and/or the pilot has another qualification/trade behind them that has provided him/her with life skills in order to adapt, learn and operate safely as a low time GA pilot, particularly in isolation and in challenging operational environments.

As far as pressed clean shirts, polished shoes, neat grooming and not being on the piss all night and fronting up for work the next day is all very relevant.

GA ready course is a good investment for those considering it, certainly not money wasted as additional skills and valuable knowledge acquired are essential for a low time CPL holder. Forget the IFR rating, get a good solid 1,000 hours PIC that will consolidate the initial CPL training and make you into a better pilot! This can only occur with good training and no bad habits!

[tossbag]

What I could have used most was some experience talking to girls and escalating a relationship.

The one area where experience means nothing. Unless of course you go hang out in the family court to get the full experience.

[Mach E Avelli]

The Darwin fascist cultivates several mini-me's for his operations (young, white and preferably shaved headed) and relies on the scapegoat of ill-equipped east coast CPLs to perpetuate the business model. I've never been hiring-firing-perspiring in the top end, but I'd question the amount of people actually fronting up without knowing how to iron a shirt or use a declared density chart. Even to those who do front up without key non technical and technical skills, I don't understand how they can't be taught in a couple of days. Drum refuelling only takes one 20 minute demo for someone to be able to go and do themselves. In my personal experience, I had most bits of airmanship and general "life-out-of-home skills" under control when I first fronted up. What I could have used most was some experience talking to girls and escalating a relationship.

Does he require chicks to shave their heads as well? Or are females exempt from the fascist look?
As for ill-equipped pilots fresh from CPL training - it was ever thus, even in my time many moons ago. I recall one C grade (as it was back then) instructor who was all of two years older than me and had less of an idea than I did about several dual training exercises. Somehow we survived.
The main saving grace back then was that the final check had to be done by a DCA Examiner, so flight schools never got to 'graduate' their own. But overall, I don't think the training standards were any better back then - if you got lucky you got a crusty old ex wartime pilot as your instructor sometimes, though often had to endure what today would be classed as verbal abuse if you screwed up. Testing standards may have been higher but training standards were not.
Today's pilots benefit from (or are burdened by, depending on your point of view) extra subjects like human factors, dangerous goods, security etc that were unheard of back in the good old days, and I am sure today's graduates have a much better grip on electronics than we did. Back then there was very basic radio theory to get the licence. Navigation, Flight Planning, Principles of Flight and Meteorology were written exams, so there was no chance of fluking passes - as is the case with today's multi choice exams, but whether we retained the knowledge any better for it I can't say. Is today's technical knowledge better or worse?
It does not help that Australian GA seems burdened with bull**** that would not be tolerated in any workplace in the real world. I have witnessed (and also been on the receiving end of) two hour briefings/oral quizzes to do a simple instrument rating renewal, then 45 minute nit-picking de-briefs, when the candidate has passed to the required standard. Too much trivia, too much of the instructor showing superior knowledge and experience at all costs. Too much of CASA making it ever more complex simply to add pages to the MOS.

My observations in general - from some 50 years of training and checking pilots on to heavy twins (DC 3 anyone?), transport category turboprops and jets.
Freshly-minted graduates (mostly from so-called 'sausage factories') soon come to grips with operational requirements:
- if you tell them once not to open up power if it will blast dirt or people or aircraft, they get it
- if you require them to climb a ladder with a refuelling hose, earth it, stick in in a hole and ensure the hole is covered up after, they get it. Of course it pays to climb the ladder yourself afterward to check that the hole is indeed plugged
- if you have a gravel runway technique and show them once, then have them practice it, they soon get it
- if you want your engines handled a certain way and give them appropriate material to self-study, plus some supervision, they get it

On the other hand - and again generalising:
- pilots who have been in GA all their life are usually there because they did not make it to anything bigger and better
- instructors who have been in GA all their life have a very narrow area of expertise - the best instructors are often those who return to GA after a long time elsewhere, have nothing to prove, made enough money to be comfortable, and now seek a healthier lifestyle
- THE absolutely THE most difficult pilots to train onto advanced equipment - or down train to less advanced equipment - are those who know only one thing, whether it be GA or a particular airline. Usually mid 40's to late 50's types

Give me the new graduate any day, invest a bit of time in them and accept that if they are any good, after a couple of years they will move on. An operator who can't afford that probably can't afford maintenance or much else either.....

[Hamley]

Don’t forget kids that some operators will PAY YOU to train on the C210.

After being checked to line you’ll know all there is to know and be strutting around with the caravan specialists at Monnies in no time.

[Flying Bear]

G’day Mach E,

The answer to your first two questions is - no, and yes, respectively…

You make some valid points - I don’t necessarily agree with them, from my standpoint and experience - but your response is considered and helpful in the debate.

However, these crappy little airplanes we fly are virtually uninsurable nowadays unless you have 500-1000 hrs total time - and you would, no doubt, appreciate the issues remote area GA operators would have sourcing such pilots. Unless, you can offer tailored type-specific training. I won’t post my insurance policies on here - but I hope you can accept my integrity on that point.

Besides, accusations of fascism aside, I’ve always preferred to use my businesses as an opportunity to provide experience and mentoring to new starters in industry… but, yes, I have expectations that go beyond standards of personal grooming that, sadly, are misrepresented and I refute the allegations levelled on here by some.

I won’t feed the trolls in this thread any further, but I am comfortable with my business practices, whilst accepting that they are not agreed to by all.

Hopefully the OP has realised the length and breadth of the viper pit that is aviation - and I don’t expect that it changes to any great extent in the airline world! All the best to him and the cohort of newbies in 2022 - I reckon things will be better for them this year than in the previous couple!

[morno]

You’re just another GA company that is stuck in the past and takes advantage of new pilots.

There is no need for a stupid “GA Ready” course, that’s just a big crock of ****. If you just taught them properly during line training, it’d be more than adequate.

[Giraffesarecool]

You’re just another GA company that is stuck in the past and takes advantage of new pilots.

There is no need for a stupid “GA Ready” course, that’s just a big crock of ****. If you just taught them properly during line training, it’d be more than adequate.
The course is simply a way to get new pilots to pay for their own icus. The companies who require it (apparently as part of their insurance?) are the ones running it. Funny how other companies can and do hire pilots below 500 hrs with no such insurance problems.

[Brakerider]

On the other hand - and again generalising:
- pilots who have been in GA all their life are usually there because they did not make it to anything bigger and better



says it all really. A lot of companies that previously used this mobs service have chosen to disassociate themselves from the individuals and the business. The list is getting pretty long.

[tossbag]

You're just another GA company that is stuck in the past and takes advantage of new pilots.

There is no need for a stupid GA Ready course, that's just a big crock of ****. If you just taught them properly during line training, it'd be more than adequate.

This pretty much sums it up. I'll bet that any mob running a 'GA Ready Course' created it because things were a little quiet.

In the end, if a candidate needs to be told they have to be on time for a shift etc a 'GA Ready Course' is not going to fix all the other deficiencies. Maybe a 'Choosing a GA Ready Candidate' course needs to be created for the Chief Pilot. Maybe the problem lies with them?

[DropYourSocks]

Hi Gents,

Smashed out a couple hundred hours over the east coast during lockdown after finishing my CPL and trying my luck in Darwin. Have sent resumes to all my contacts but haven't had an offer worth taking yet.. Just wondering if it's too late to head up and knock on some doors for the coming season. Hoping to get in and out asap.

Cheers
FF

Hey mate,

This thread sums up everything that is great about GA in Australia, and also everything that is wrong with it. Aus is a big flat brown country with more or less no real weather. Flying here isn't that hard. Pay attention to the guys a few years ahead of you that bounce onto bigger and better, and emulate what they do. They'll teach you what you need to be successful, and will help you build a solid network.

You'll have a blast up north, whether it's Broome, Kunnas, Darwin, Cairns or wherever. My one piece of advice is that these Pay to Play schemes have been around in one form or another for a long time. In my experience, they will make no real difference to the overall trajectory of your career one way or the other. The tried and true advice of getting a NVFR, MECIR or IR still holds water, get to that 1500 hours, and the world is your oyster. Aviation is bigger than top end flying. Good luck on the hunt!

[runway16]

Two things appear to be being missed in relation to discussion on GA Ready courses,
Shiny shoes and a clean pressed shirt take self discipline to come up sparkling. Self discipline is the stuff that makes good pilots. Over the years I have seen more than one pilot who did not have that and is no longer around.
The second is that the punters who are paying out hundreds of dollars to see the Red Rock or go from A to B look to the pilot as someone they want to have respect for after all their lives are in his hands. His appearance and attitude
are the things that give them confidence as to the outcome of the flight.
For all you critics of GA Courses think back and try to remember if you had confidence in your pilot who looked like something out of a dumpmaster and treated you as walk-in freight.
If you have not seen that then I suggest you have not been around for long.

[morno]

We already knew how to look decent and professional, and if pilots can’t do that these days without doing a scam course, then they’ll soon learn when they find out they’re being rejected for jobs because they can’t look decent and professional.

You can’t keep designing courses for the idiots in the street who can’t work **** out for themselves.

[tossbag]

For all you critics of GA Courses think back and try to remember if you had confidence in your pilot who looked like something out of a dumpmaster and treated you as walk-in freight.

Dude.............Why did you employ this pilot in the first place? It's your fault if the pilot looks like the cat dragged them in. If the passenger comes back and complains about the way the pilot looked or behaved then you're the problem, you checked them to line.

[Global Aviator]

Just had a great laugh reading this thread!

GA ready course? Yeah sure a newby needs some help but isn’t that the job of the company employing? A few hours ICUS and away they go. Read the company ops manual and SOPS boom.

****e this seems to be getting outa hand! It was bad enough hearing years ago that a certain company used to charge for a checkride with a QF bloke.

[runway16]

Morno, Tossbag, Global.
When you guys deal with newbee CPL holders, 200-250 hours wonders, still living at home and still in nappies with the ink still wet on their ticket you will get a real idea of how little they were taught at flight school.
You say the flight school should have taught them what it takes to be a GA Ready CPL. Who to pay? You say that the new employer should wear that cost to get them really GA Ready. The margins in GA are slim and every time that prop turns over there should be a dollar going into the till. Training to get the sprogs up to speed costs real money, time and people. Something that an operator has little of.
I suggest you go out there and talk with charter operators for their opinion. I doubt that they will be saying that they are running a flying school teaching a newbee the vary basics of what a CPL should know.
Flying Bear made the correct comment that the standard of flight training has gone down hill in recent years. In part that is not doubt because the new breed of low time instructors do not have charter experience to pass on and the older breed of experienced instructors are fading from the scene. Those are the guys who knew what the word Airmanship meant.

[tossbag]

The margins in GA are slim and every time that prop turns over there should be a dollar going into the till. Training to get the sprogs up to speed costs real money, time and people. Something that an operator has little of.

100% the operators problem. If you can't make an earn after taking into account the cost of doing business, ALL of the costs, then don't do it. It's not the type of business to be a part of if you're making razor thin margins that don't include ICUS and route check costs.

At some point in time there has to be a reckoning, for both sides of the equation, employer AND employee.

[Global Aviator]

Capitalising on desperate pilots is what it looks like.

Yes true a fresh CPL is very green. Heck I remember when I first started I did not even know how to use a HF radio, the flying schools fault? Well it was in a major city center with no HF in any aircraft. Was it an issue? No, a very quick lesson by my first employer.

Employers that take on low hour pilots know that they will have to put in a little extra work, however it also goes the other way and breeds loyalty from said employee.

How loyal is a pilot going to be if told nah go spend XXXX on a job ready course first even though you hold a CPL?

Just seems strange to me. Still the hardest part for a newbie is to crack that first job, hopefully with a reputable operator with a fleet for advancement.

Where or when does it stop? The next step is airline ready courses, yep you know they are there. Again taking advantage of pilots. It’s bad enough now that most will spend for a rating.

Yes I am far removed from GA in Aus, maybe this is the new way? However I still reckon it’s all about attitude. Jump in the car go knock on doors, stay professional, don’t get upset when you get your 30th no, it will happen if you want it bad enough,

[Hamley]

runway16 sounds like a boss who doesn’t pay award

[morno]

Morno, Tossbag, Global.
When you guys deal with newbee CPL holders, 200-250 hours wonders, still living at home and still in nappies with the ink still wet on their ticket you will get a real idea of how little they were taught at flight school.
You say the flight school should have taught them what it takes to be a GA Ready CPL. Who to pay? You say that the new employer should wear that cost to get them really GA Ready. The margins in GA are slim and every time that prop turns over there should be a dollar going into the till. Training to get the sprogs up to speed costs real money, time and people. Something that an operator has little of.
I suggest you go out there and talk with charter operators for their opinion. I doubt that they will be saying that they are running a flying school teaching a newbee the vary basics of what a CPL should know.
Flying Bear made the correct comment that the standard of flight training has gone down hill in recent years. In part that is not doubt because the new breed of low time instructors do not have charter experience to pass on and the older breed of experienced instructors are fading from the scene. Those are the guys who knew what the word Airmanship meant.

Cry me a river. You’re obviously a poor business person who needs to charge new CPL pilots (by the way, they ARE GA ready, it’s called having a CPL) money for a course that covers the training that you’re apparently going to get out of, to be able to stay afloat.

The standard of trainees hasn’t changed much in the last 20 years mate, nor has the ability for some ass to take advantage of people.

I’ve done GA, and I can’t say I probably had much more of a clue than any newly trained pilot now. But my employers showed me the ropes and spent the effort doing so. The fact that your existing pilots can’t sufficiently supervise a new pilot reflects badly upon your own check and training system and the GA ready course (I thought it was supposed to teach them everything? Why can’t they pass the knowledge on during ICUS?).

So basically there’s 2 conclusions:

You need to take a look at your business model, because it sounds like it sucks
You’re taking advantage of new CPL holders to pay your beer bill on Friday night in Mitchell Street.

[Flying Bear]

Morno’s post above represents what I detest about aviation in general…

Rather than offer much constructive, he revels in a condescending personal attack on someone he knows nothing about. Playing the man, not the ball - how typical.

Regardless of your point of view on this topic, all I can say is that our profession is ultimately doomed at all levels because there is just no support for each other… At the very top, Alan Joyce must be rubbing his hands together, because I’m sure these pontificating, devisive attitudes extend into the airline world, too.

If I knew of all the toxicity in this industry when I was a newbie, I’d probably have done something else. However, here I am, doing the best I can for my team & myself in a necessary part of the wider industry, copping flack from a range of venomous people.

However, I won’t be “crying you, or anyone else a river…” I’ve got way too much to do today for that, including giving a start to two young pilots (yeah, both have done the GA Ready course…) but notwithstanding, that will involve type familiarisation & about 30 hrs line training (at our cost) whilst on full pay (IAW Award). This takes about a month - given the burden of CASA requirements. Plus, subsidised accommodation, etc which we hope they don’t trash. All for pilots we will be lucky to retain for longer than six months, as the industry moves.

Despite being a “champion” of pilot’s rights - how many new pilots did you give an opportunity to this week? At your expense?Genuine questions - as I have no idea who you are & you could run a reputable GA company - but I’m guessing not.

Happy Easter!

[morno]

Morno’s post above is everything I detest about aviation in general…

Rather than offer something constructive, he revels in a condescending personal attack on someone he knows nothing about. Playing the man, not the ball - how typical.

Regardless of your point of view on this topic, all I can say is that our profession is ultimately doomed at all levels because there is just no support for each other… At the vey top, Alan Joyce must be rubbing his hands together, because I’m sure these pontificating, devisive attitudes extend into the airline world, too.

If I knew of all the toxicity in this industry when I was a newbie, I’d probably have done something else. However, here I am, doing the best I can for my team and myself in a necessary part of the wider industry, copping flack from a range of venomous people.

However, I won’t be “crying you, or anyone else a river…” I’ve got way too much to do today for that!

Happy Easter!

Would you rather that I congratulated the man for coming up with a new way to rip off pilots?

What I detest about the industry is the number of people who are there to take advantage of others, and then try and justify it by complaining about “training standards”. Newsflash buddy, I went to a good flying school 20 years ago, but do you think I knew much or anything about how to use a HF Radio, refuel from a drum properly, or change the oil in the engine? No, I didn’t, but I learnt it from those who then employed me and did my ICUS training, because that’s what they did and they didn’t go broke over it.

I am a long way up the industry now, but whenever I do come across a new pilot to the industry who asks for advice and help, I am very happy to do it. And you know what, I don’t charge them for it!

You say that AJ must be rubbing his hands together. He probably is, because he’s seeing people create new ways to continue to rip us off.

[Global Aviator]

So busy you start the day on prune trying to justify?

As I said above I am far removed but why the need to continue the justification.

Back to is it too late? Again no idea but if ya don’t try you will never know. What was that old NT saying? No not the CU in the NT one, oh that’s right, you’ll never ever know if you never ever go!

[Capt Fathom]

giving a start to two young pilots (yeah, both have done the GA Ready course…) but notwithstanding, that will involve type familiarisation & about 30 hrs line training


If they are getting 30 hours of training from you, surely that negates the need for a ‘GA Ready’ course?

[tossbag]

Rather than offer much constructive, he revels in a condescending personal attack on someone he knows nothing about. Playing the man, not the ball - how typical.

Yeah/nah, as he says, you're just another hack ripping off the naive. You wonder why you're copping attacks. You've started two new pilots, hero you. BUT they did the GA ready course. Wow, and you still need to induct them, what a joke. You're spending 30 hours and a month of ICUS but they still need GA ready? :ugh: There's something seriously wrong with your induction if you can't get it done without GA ready, thief.

[Brakerider]

If they are getting 30 hours of training from you, surely that negates the need for a ‘GA Ready’ course?

30 hours training to fly a GA machine? Does that come with a complimentary space shuttle endorsement?

[morno]

30 hours training to fly a GA machine? Does that come with a complimentary space shuttle endorsement?

I know right! I think I might have done maybe 10hrs at the most, then let loose. Still worked out how to fill up out of a drum too.

[Kundry]

How about we stick to the facts

[TENTOTEN]

My first VFR job in GA involved a quick chat with the boss that went like this. (things were a bit different back in 1973)
If you decide to depart with paying passengers and don't make the destination due weather you are fired, however if you decide not to depart in the first place that is all ok!!
Had the due effect about assessing en route wx very carefully.

[IO520L]

A practice I remember this GA Ready mob did... they had their GA Ready students manning their front desk and running around like headless chooks during the day trying to look as hard working as possible to try and score a gig after their $4k had been taken. They weren't being paid for their work - they were paying for the privilege of learning "customer service skills".

During the day only?! Dont forget the fact they make them work from before sunrise to after sunset daily in the name of teamwork or should I say to give above themselves as they see fit! Takes 5 pilots to refuel 1 plane apparently...

[mikewil]

My first VFR job in GA involved a quick chat with the boss that went like this. (things were a bit different back in 1973)
If you decide to depart with paying passengers and don't make the destination due weather you are fired, however if you decide not to depart in the first place that is all ok!!

Great safety culture there...I wonder if a comment like that would influence a young pilots decision making upon encountering unforecast weather enroute causing him to subsequently enter IMC for fear of the 'consequences' of turning back.

[Mach E Avelli]

Great safety culture there...I wonder if a comment like that would influence a young pilots decision making upon encountering unforecast weather enroute causing him to subsequently enter IMC for fear of the 'consequences' of turning back.
Bearing in mind that 40 years ago there was little understanding of CRM, TEM etc, I think that the boss mentioned above was actually quite progressive. By telling the new pilot that there would be no repercussions if a flight was cancelled or delayed due to weather, but a boot in the bum for departing into unsuitable conditions, he was applying an early form of 'just culture'. Quite reasonable of him to want to minimise losses due to turnbacks. But it is more likely that such an enlightened boss would accept unforecast bad weather as mitigation for a turnback.
Reminds me of when I first started flying DC3s to the Shetlands. After a minimal training period (6 sectors) I was turned loose with a low time F/O. I had no experience of North Sea flying conditions, and got caught out by sea fog at Sumburgh and had to turn back. Next day, same thing, missed approach and back to Aberdeen, yet a couple of French chicks in a Falcon jet had landed just ahead of me. But not a word of criticism from the Chief Pilot - presumably because sea fog in those parts back then was not accurately forecast. When I finally did scrape in, I heard that the French lady Captain had crossed herself fervently and went for her rosary beads when the fog cleared enough for her to see just how gnarly the terrain around the airport was. She had never been there before, whereas I at least had seen the place during those initial six sectors and was suitably fearful of going more than a couple of hundred feet below minima (I know, naughty naughty, but that's what we did back then) while she must have drilled down almost to the runway without seeing a thing.

[The Wawa Zone]

In answer to the original question:Too late for 2022?No, it's too late for 2021 but not for 2022. You won't get a job here unless you come here and stay here and keep in contact with the operators here and as many people as you can.

A GA Ready course ? You'll get that at your job as soon as you finish the induction paperwork - they won't send you anywhere until they're happy you can handle all the weird stuff that will happen. People above have mentioned fuel drums, pax handling, oil changes, yeah, all that. However even if your GA Ready course gives you one extra little factoid that a company may later miss, that may pay off later and it should be worth it. How much are you paying ?

What you should be getting in any course or in your company is having your head stuffed full of information hard-won by others, a good set of your own hand scrawled notes, your hands on as much as can fit into hours in the day, and physically hammered to acclimatise to flying in the bush because to do it properly you need to do it at a pace that I call 'airborne labouring'. At the end of each day of your course, be it GA-R or post company induction, you need to be full and ready for a big feed and a snooze, and that needs to go on for 1-2 weeks. If you finish the day clean and relaxed, then you're not getting what you need.

[IO520L]

Definitely not too late to try get a job at a certain Jabiru based operator, just heard they've lost a few pilots very recently, although I won't say why. Would love to hear Flying Bear's thoughts on this one :ok:

[172heavy]

Definitely not too late to try get a job at a certain Jabiru based operator, just heard they've lost a few pilots very recently, although I won't say why. Would love to hear Flying Bear's thoughts on this one :ok:
I'm hearing 5 pilots quit last week over a "safety incident". Senior Base and CP included in those five.

[IO520L]

I'm hearing 5 pilots quit last week over a "safety incident". Senior Base and CP included in those five.
Even the CP?! Hopefully that will finally make CASA put some effort into looking into all the illegal practices that a certain person there forces on employees. Oh sorry, did I say illegal practices, oops, I meant tEaMwOrK. Regardless, it's clearly a reflection of the company, or certain people within its disregard for employees to have so many leave. But I guess it's only a matter of time before some more courses can be pumped out. I hear that they've already pushed a couple through a lot faster than normal, so would be interesting to see the quality of product there now.