ADS-B “IN” at Ballina?

[Dick Smith]

Does anyone know if the airline aircraft that currently fly into Ballina have ADS-B “IN” installed?

I look forward to any information on this.

[Roj approved]

No for the A320

[43Inches]

It sounds like a TCAS display, where you can see other traffic with altitude readout, so most RPT would have the traffic display portion in some amount these days. While ADSB-IN is not fitted to many airliners, TCAS II does the job currently, however no weather input or anything like that. Both systems require that the rogue aircraft also have transponders, however TCAS directly reads the other aircraft signal rather than get information from a ground transceiver.

[Lead Balloon]

Alas, old mate in his Jizzler 700 isn't required to have a transponder in G is he, 43?

And you'd rather be in G rather than E, any day, wouldn't you 43?

[43Inches]

I spend a great deal of my day in class G, yes, never had a problem with it. I suppose if you lack situational awareness you might need someone else to look over your shoulder for you... In any case ADSB or TCAS don't care what airspace it's in, it does the same thing.

Coming up to 30 years of flying in class G or equivalent and still havn't hit anything.

[sunnySA]

Does anyone know if the airline aircraft that currently fly into Ballina have ADS-B “IN” installed?

I look forward to any information on this.

Dick, why Ballina? What's the motive behind the question?

[Roo]

.. Both systems require that the rogue aircraft also have transponders, however TCAS directly reads the other aircraft signal rather than get information from a ground transceiver. ADSB IN also directly reads other AC signal. No need for any ground transceiver.

[43Inches]

ADSB IN also directly reads other AC signal. No need for any ground transceiver.

Good to know, I'm not that familiar with ADSB In, the notes on it seem to imply it was all sent by ground stations. But that means it's a lot more useful for close calls.

[Capn Bloggs]

And you'd rather be in G rather than E, any day, wouldn't you 43?
Easy. Mandate transponders in MBZs below 10k. They're mandatory above 10k already.

[Lead Balloon]

Are MBZ's back again? I missed that memo, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Australian airspace camel has re-sprouted that hump along with - what is the recent new hump? - is it 'SAFIS'?

[West_Koios]

Airservices doesn't have ADS-B IN at Ballina. No circuit level coverage at all.

[triadic]

One of my American friends once told me that many GA pilots fly in E the much the same way some here do in G.... take off, clear the CTAF, turn the radio down on whatever frequency and listen to music on the ADF.....! No interest in ATC unless they ask for "flight following" where ATC will provide a service (separation, wx etc) on a workload available basis.

[missy]

...listen to music on the ADF...
Gotta use those Bose™ headphones for something...

[ACMS]

ADSB in is an option on Airbus selectable by the owner. I’ve seen it in A330’s etc and it seems to be of very good safety and operational value to enhance decision making both en route and in the terminal area.

Sadly most Airlines don’t option it. I know Hawaiian Airlines has it fitted.
It would be able to be retrofitted later pretty easily after spending $$$$$

[Lead Balloon]

But surely it would be mandated for all transport category passenger carrying aircraft in Australia. Surely the cost would pale into insignificance when compared to the reduced risks to the safety of air navigation.

[neville_nobody]

But surely it would be mandated for all transport category passenger carrying aircraft in Australia. Surely the cost would pale into insignificance when compared to the reduced risks to the safety of air navigation.

Now try that line with the executive whose budget it comes out of and watch the reaction........

And that's why everything is always to expensive in airlines.

[Geoff Fairless]

Dick, why Ballina? What's the motive behind the question?

Sunny - I think Dick is interested because ATSB mention it in the Mangalore Investigation report.
I have flown in a Beaver from Ketchikan and watched ADS-B IN operating. The pilot used it to keep tabs on where the other Beavers were, and it was very useful for situational awareness. I'm not sure whether they used it as a separation tool, for instance they simply used 1500 ft in and 1000 ft out to maintain vertical separation in and out of Ketchikan even though they could see the other aircraft. As noted elsewhere in this thread it only identifies other ADS B equipped aircraft and there was no mandate for fitment, the company had made the investment themselves so their pilots could see each other.

[sunnySA]

Sunny - I think Dick is interested because ATSB mention it in the Mangalore Investigation report Yes, ABS-B gets several mentions but no safety recommendation.

... the company had made the investment themselves so their pilots could see each other. SouthEast Aviation obviously made an investment in safety to improve the situational awareness of their pilots.

ADSB in is an option on Airbus selectable by the owner. Sadly most Airlines don’t option it. Why? There is a long list of very questionable decisions made by those charged with responsibility for selecting aircraft. QF A332/A333 comes to mind. Big lags between placing an order, delivery and then the operational use of the aircraft which could be 10-25 years.

Aircraft avionics are light years ahead of ATC systems.

TAAATS is more than 20 years old and never was optimised but rather managed through a series of workarounds. What % of suggested improvements were ever adopted - 5%? Why, because the bean counters didn't agree, because AsA needs to provide a dividend to the government, because the Industry didn't want to pay for enhancements?

But surely it would be mandated for all transport category passenger carrying aircraft in Australia. Surely the cost would pale into insignificance when compared to the reduced risks to the safety of air navigation. Couldn't agree more but there needs to be a coherent vision for Australian Airspace management and technology. I understand that this is the responsibility of ASTRA

The Australian Strategic Air Traffic Management Group, ASTRA, is an aviation industry body dedicated to developing an optimum air traffic management system for Australia. As such, it is the Federal Government’s primary source of industry advice on air traffic management directions.
ASTRA brings together all of the industry stakeholders including aircraft operators, airports and service providers to develop and continuously review the ASTRA Strategic Air Traffic Management Plan and develop a recommended Target Operational Concept.
ASTRA also provides an industry-wide representative forum for developing the industry position on ATM matters as the basis for strategic advice to Government, and to coordinate agreed integrated ATM planning, development and implementation effort by all relevant ATM stakeholders.Still functioning?

The ATSB also notes that ADS-B receivers, suitable for use on aircraft operating under both instrument or visual flight rules, are currently available within Australia at low cost and can be used without any additional regulatory approval or expense. Yes, but no safety recommendation.

The National Airspace System is reliant on individual, groups and organisations all making an informed decisions to contribute to safety. It shouldn't be down to the individual PIC/ATC.

[Lead Balloon]

How does an ADS-B receiver help to 'detect' old mate in his Jizzler 700 with no transponder at 1,000' in the vicinity of Ballina?

[sunnySA]

How does an ADS-B receiver help to 'detect' old mate in his Jizzler 700 with no transponder at 1,000' in the vicinity of Ballina?
It doesn't. Options would be primary radar or Mark I eyeball from the Control Tower or via remote tower camera technology.

[Capn Bloggs]

It doesn't.
According to this:

https://business.gov.au/grants-and-programs/automatic-dependent-surveillance-broadcast-rebate-program?fbclid=IwAR3BEnirnCZuM1JbZ9yeOUcLLoKXFro7YKzZI_TJ452 J_XVN9xOXGzf47mQ

It appears that a Jab, fitted with, would be seen by the SFIS and other aircraft which had ADS-B In. The fighter pilot in me likes that idea: "just give me a velocity vector!".

[Sunfish]

Old mate can have a government subsidized Skyecho.

Why don't we have a "CTAF (R + XPDR + ADSB)" requirement anywhere RPT operates together with a requirement that ASA maintain ADSB reception and use it for separation?

WHy did I have to spend $3500 for a mode S transponder +$900 for an approvable GPS source + $700 for ADSB - IN ..... and yet I'm not even allowed in controlled airspace? AsA doesn't even monitor ADSB, let alone use it in anger?

To put it another way, I can see old mate in his Jizzler 700 with his skyecho. I can't see the RPT Airbus inbound because he doesnt transmit ADSB (?). The Airbus can't see me unless we get close enough for her TCAS to generate an RA because she doesnt have ADSB - in, the Airbus also can't see Old Mate and AsA can't see any of us because there is no radar down low and it isn't even looking at ADSB at all?


This is only going to end one way ...... a smoking hole and a Royal Commission.

[Lead Balloon]

I look forward to ATSB, CASA and Air Services justifying an RPT aircraft full of passengers lost as a consequence of a collision with an RAAus aircraft in the vicinity of Ballina, on the basis that it’s the first of an extraordinarily unlikely event. A bit like a one-in-one thousand year flood or a shark attack at a Sydney beach.

No air traffic control in the surrounding airspace.

No control tower for the aerodrome.

An RAAus aircraft that is:

- Not certified airworthy by CASA.

- Not piloted by a person licensed by CASA.

- Not piloted by a person medically certified by CASA.

- Not required to carry a serviceable transponder.

All ‘legal’ and ‘not unsafe’, according to CASA and ATSB. Air Services couldn’t care less. It all makes perfect sense. I’m sure the travelling public will understand and move on.

[Capn Bloggs]

Sunfish:
WHy did I have to spend $3500 for a mode S transponder

Because TCAS will pick up your mode S. As far as avoiding heavy metal goes, that was the best investment you could have ever made.

To put it another way, I can see old mate in his Jizzler 700 with his skyecho. I can't see the RPT Airbus inbound because he doesnt transmit ADSB (?). The Airbus can't see me unless we get close enough for her TCAS to generate an RA because she doesnt have ADSB - in, the Airbus also can't see Old Mate and AsA can't see any of us because there is no radar down low and it isn't even looking at ADSB at all?

I may not be reading this right, but if you have ADS-B in, you'll see the A320 because we all have ADS-B out (IFR requirement since 2020(?) and you'll see the Jab if fitted with that gadget.

Likewise, if the A320 has ADS-B In, they will see other ADS-B Out aircraft.

[Vag277]

Sunfish
You appear not to understand the rules
VFR aircraft only Mode S transponder if operating in Class E or C airspace
ADS-B is not required for VFR
Why can’t you enter controlled airspace?

[morno]

Sunfish
You appear not to understand the rules
VFR aircraft only Mode S transponder if operating in Class E or C airspace
ADS-B is not required for VFR
Why can’t you enter controlled airspace?

Because he has NFI basically. Maybe it’s safer for us if he doesn’t fly in CTA.

The Airbus has probably had ADS-B OUT longer than you’ve had your IN Sunfish. Do keep up.

[Lead Balloon]

Yet Sunfish is free to fly in the airspace around Ballina, whether his aircraft is or is not fitted with any 'ADS anything'.

[Sunfish]

Thank you Capt. Bloggs, I was unaware of the ADSB out 2020 requirement for RPT. I lost a years flying thanks to Covid.

Vag, I understand and comply, however I don't understand why VFR aircraft (VH or RAA) without a transponder or radio(?) are permitted to operate in the vicinity of a CTAF with RPT operations.

RAA pilots are not approved to fly in CTA. An RAA aircraft may, provided it is equipped with a TSO'd radio and transponder and it is not precluded from flying over populous/ built up areas on its certificate and it is piloted by somone with a PPL and current BFR as well as an RAA certificate..

My normal practice as an amateur when inbound and an RPT aircraft calls inbound or departing is to defer to them and manoeuvre to keep well clear. A few orbits or slowing down until they are out of the way costs me nothing.

Yes, I work on the basis that i have NFI. I therefore plan and do revision.

[tossbag]

AsA doesn't even monitor ADSB, let alone use it in anger?

ADSB is used extensively by ASA. If you are VFR chugging along the controller will see your ID (callsign) displayed on their ASD if you are in coverage. If you listen out on frequency you will hear them passing traffic on you to others, don't you wonder how they knew who you were without identifying yourself? It's because the ID is displayed whether you're squawking a discreet code OR 1200. ADSB out is worth every cent, ADSB in is worth even more, whatever way you are getting it, on your ipad, on your GPS unit or your PFD.

But Sunny, don't stare at the damn thing, eyes outside once you've gotten a warning. There are limitations on its use. Don't be a flog, there are too many flogs in CTAF's/MBA's/MBZ's.

[43Inches]

TCAS only needs a transponder, it does not need ADS-B in the other aircraft, just mode A, C or S. It can't make resolutions on Mode A though as it has no altitude readout to relate to, but it will give a warning of traffic via a TA. The range for TCAS is more than adequate almost always displaying traffic out to 10nm or greater, the display is only for situational awareness, not separation.

With regard to Ballina one point that I've also thought about with the A320 incident described above, is why it's allowed that a pushback can proceed that will block an aircraft vacating the runway. It needs to be written into procedures that pushback can not commence while an arrival may be forced to hold on the runway. This sort of thing can really only be solved by positive ATC control. Or some sort of holding allowance needs to be alerted that aircraft may have to hold for 10/20/30 minutes while RPT in operation to ensure they have adequate fuel. There needs to be coordination if an RPT procedure is going to cause delays due to aircraft size and movement area limitations.

It sounds to me that there is more than just the airborne issues at play here, if CASA is allowing multiple RPT jets into a port that can't handle them to be moving around at the same time without closing the runway strip.

[Capn Bloggs]

It needs to be written into procedures that pushback can not commence while an arrival may be forced to hold on the runway.
Or that scrooge council can fork out some dollars and build a proper airport with bigger parking areas and a parallel taxiway. It makes you wonder what the airport manager is doing when he sees or hears that that is going on. Or the CAGRO.

[Lead Balloon]

Comedy gold, Capn! Keep the laughs coming. Thanks.

[Vag277]

Sunfish
ADS-B mandate has been in place for ALL IFR aircraft for more than 6years. Why did you go down that path?

[Vag277]

Sunfish
You are also wrong about RAA aircraft & pilots in controlled airspace. CASA has issued approvals where the training has taken place in controlled airspace. I suggest that you ask.

[Sunfish]

Vag, yes I've seen the yellow perils at YMMB in the past. However its for training only and once the trainees graduate with their RAA certificate and cease training, then for them its "no entry".

All this seems to be a peculiarly Australian problem. The USA seems to not have any of the same hangups we have in Australia.

[Squawk7700]

WHy did I have to spend $3500 for a mode S transponder +$900 for an approvable GPS source + $700 for ADSB - IN ..... and yet I'm not even allowed in controlled airspace? AsA doesn't even monitor ADSB, let alone use it in anger?

.


You were NOT forced to spend $5k on this and never was it mandated

[triadic]

Airservices doesn't have ADS-B IN at Ballina. No circuit level coverage at all.

Not much coverage below 3000ft https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/about-us/projects/ads-b/ads-b-coverage/. There are many locations with frequent high traffic levels that do not have low level ADSB coverage, such as Mangalore, Mildura etc. I find it interesting that there is no ADSB coverage in the Cairns area as they seem to rely on the radar there?? One would think that placing the required ground equipment at such locations would be in last years budget? Not designed for GA I guess as the $ are the priority, not safety?

[missy]

You'd think that every location that has a piece of AsA kit would be an ADSB location, every NDB, every VOR, every radar site, every VHF transmitter site, co-located with an ADSB group station.

[Sunfish]

You were NOT forced to spend $5k on this and never was it mandated

‘True, but at the time. (2013 - 2016) there was considerable debate on mandating some solution and it would have been impractical not to specify a mode S transponder as part of a new avionics installation. It is a requirement for class E anyway.

[morno]

‘True, but at the time. (2013 - 2016) there was considerable debate on mandating some solution and it would have been impractical not to specify a mode S transponder as part of a new avionics installation. It is a requirement for class E anyway.

So quit your whinging. Making out that the world is against you as usual Sunfish.

[triadic]

So what about this?
https://business.gov.au/grants-and-programs/automatic-dependent-surveillance-broadcast-rebate-program (http://https://business.gov.au/grants-and-programs/automatic-dependent-surveillance-broadcast-rebate-program)

[Dick Smith]

So the answer seems to be

"no RPT aircraft operating into Ballina are fitted with ADSB in. "

[Capn Bloggs]

You wallys need to pull your heads in and stop beating up on Sunfish. He has the gold-standard equipment fit which, if replicated by all, would markedly improve safety without the nonsense of Class E.

Triadic, linked in post 21. ;)

[mikewil]

Not much coverage below 3000ft https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/about-us/projects/ads-b/ads-b-coverage/. I find it interesting that there is no ADSB coverage in the Cairns area as they seem to rely on the radar there??

Looking at the maps there, it appears as if there is one stationed at Cairns (though the coverage provided by it looks a bit hit and miss).

I do take your point though, for example there isn't one at Adelaide which has a huge number of ADSB equipped GA aircraft in the area from the flight training school that does a lot of the international training down there.

Even with good radar coverage, I'd have thought it would be pretty useful for a controller to be able to see call signs of all the GA aircraft traversing around in E & G rather than just blips squawking 1200.

Amazing to think that Flight Radar 24, that uses essentially amateur receivers all over the place (mind you their receivers pick up and collate the same high integrity data that is received by Airservices ADSB receivers) provides a much more useful level of coverage than what Airservices Australia can provide their controllers. I wonder if any of them are ever tempted to get out their phone to check Flight Radar 24 to confirm the identity of something squawking 1200 or to see circuit traffic at an aerodrome with no Airservices ADSB receivers...

[missy]

Amazing to think that Flight Radar 24, that uses essentially amateur receivers all over the place (mind you their receivers pick up and collate the same high integrity data that is received by Airservices ADSB receivers) provides a much more useful level of coverage than what Airservices Australia can provide their controllers. I wonder if any of them are ever tempted to get out their phone to check Flight Radar 24 to confirm the identity of something squawking 1200 or to see circuit traffic at an aerodrome with no Airservices ADSB receivers...

Just get Telstra to put an ADSB ground station on every mobile phone tower.
Build your own ADS-B aeronautical radar with low-cost equipment - https://ferrancasanovas.wordpress.com/2013/09/20/introduction/

[RickNRoll]

So there's all these planes with out but not many with in????

[Squawk7700]

So there's all these planes with out but not many with in????

YES, spot on!

IFR, many flying schools and a solid number of private operators have OUT, but very few have IN.

[Chronic Snoozer]

YES, spot on!

IFR, many flying schools and a solid number of private operators have OUT, but very few have IN.

Which is a pity. The increase in situational awareness will reduce radio clutter and mitigate missed R/T when switching from Centre to CTAF and vice versa.

[missy]

Perhaps consider these points.
ADS-B OUT allows ATC to have the situational awareness of your position relative to other aircraft (terrain, restricted airspace) and be able to provide you with a separation, alerting or flight information service.
If you have ADS-B IN then its more like self-service where you have the situational awareness of other aircraft who have ADS-OUT.

USA study looking at accident rates for GA planes & air taxis 2013-2017 found that the aircraft equipped with ADS-B IN were 48-53 % less likely to have an accident and 88-89 % less likely to have a fatal accident.

[tossbag]

ADS-B OUT allows ATC to have the situational awareness of your position relative to other aircraft (terrain, restricted airspace) and be able to provide you with a separation

ATC can do this.........where they have coverage. But where is their coverage and to what level?

ADSB is cheap compared to radar, much much cheaper. But if ASA had coverage to the ground, then they'd be sort of obligated to provide a service. Which means they'd be obligated to increase the amount of Controlled Airspace, particularly in areas like Ballina.

ASA don't want a bar of VFR, VFR is the dog**** on the sole of your shoe when you've walked into a nice whiskey bar. They can't make coin out of VFR, so **** right off. It doesn't matter that the odds say that it'll be a VFR that hits a Part 121 (or vice versa) at Ballina.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

USA study looking at accident rates for GA planes & air taxis 2013-2017 found that the aircraft equipped with ADS-B IN were 48-53 % less likely to have an accident and 88-89 % less likely to have a fatal accident.
That study shows the effect of a third party supplementary system that uses the ADSB system to deliver additional information to apps installed and displayed on ADSB-In receivers. ADSB-IN in and of itself is not going to produce those results.

[Squawk7700]

So even if everyone has OUT, then you've still got potential for a Mangalore type incident. If everyone has IN and some kind of display, then chances are reduced, particularly with traffic awareness via EFB software or mounted hardware (eg Garmin), but there's always going to be someone who has it turned off or doesn't know how to work it properly. You'll never remove the human element.

[tossbag]

IN ain't the be all and end all. I've seen IN traffic on the PFD and not been able to spot it outside, and there's real potential of staring at the PFD in the circuit, and that causing a prox.

[Ironpot]

IN ain't the be all and end all. I've seen IN traffic on the PFD and not been able to spot it outside, and there's real potential of staring at the PFD in the circuit, and that causing a prox.
Yep - agreed. But it's become part of my scan.

Revelatory thread; I'd assumed the RPTs operating in Western Queensland were similarly equipped to our humble single engine pistons prior to this.

Can anyone answer if RFDS is ADSB in equipped please?

[Sunfish]

The Dynon integrated ADSB - IN unit displays a filtered target set (within about 5nm and +- 1000ft) on the map page of my system and an aural and visual warning if its algorithm thinks a conflict is possible. While I haven't kept exact statistics, I reckon I visually spot about half to two thirds of these targets AFTER they are painted - the ones I miss seem to usually be helos moving low and slow or fast things at the edge of visual range.

I treat it as another aid to situational awareness along with radio. Its greatest value to me seems to be within about 5 - 7 nm of the circuit as aircraft manouver to join or depart, in the circuit itself its unnecessary.

What I can't guard against is a purist with no radio or transponder - unalerted "see and avoid" is a mugs game.

I fail to understand why anyone would be flying without some form of radio and or electronic conspicuity device these days.

[Dick Smith]

I understand the RFDS has ADSB out but not in.

[Squawk7700]

Other than an EFB or a non-certified Dynon, there’s no affordable and easy to install ADSB-in solution. If you thought that the ADSB-Out mandate was expensive, that’s got nothing on IN, because unless you have a device with a screen that happens to be compatible with IN, you’re talking about a major hardware installation.

We all just assumed that by fitting OUT, that magically ATC would be able to see us all and to provide separation!

[Ironpot]

I understand the RFDS has ADSB out but not in.
The difference in cost between the 335 (Out only) and 345 (In & Out) is circa $6k

[KRviator]

The difference in cost between the 335 (Out only) and 345 (In & Out) is circa $6kTrue, but that's assuming you have a compatible cockpit display. If they have a big-screen Garmin thingamabob then yep, that's about all it'd cost, plus installation. But as Squawk7700 mentioned above, in the absence of that, you're talking biiiiig dollars to purchase and install something in a certified aircraft though there's a few new ones popping up for Experimental's in the sub-$2000 range, however even that is big bikkies for a lot of aircraft owners.

[sunnySA]

Would businesses like flying schools be eligible for support under the Technology Investment Boost as announced in the Budget? ADSB-IN, big-screen Garmin thingamabobs, big-screen iPads.

The Government is providing $1 billion to support small business digitalise their operations with a new bonus tax deduction. Businesses with an aggregated turnover below $50 million per annum will be able to deduct an additional 20 per cent of the cost incurred on business expenses and depreciating assets that supports their digitalisation. This will encourage businesses to invest in new laptops, improve cyber security, design a new website or adopt new software services.

[Squawk7700]

I've been reading the grant information for the ADSB rebate. Its not at all straight forward on the face of it. You need to provide a compelling application for it to be accepted!

You need for the purchase to have been made AFTER 20th December 2021.

The crux of what you need on the form is here:

https://business.gov.au/-/media/grants-and-programs/adsb/ads-b-rebate-grant-opportunity-guidelines-pdf.ashx?sc_lang=en&hash=A45548DCF4827A9D0E481FB9C7EE7268


Automatic Dependent Surveillance (ADS-B) Broadcast Rebate Program | business.gov.au (https://business.gov.au/grants-and-programs/automatic-dependent-surveillance-broadcast-rebate-program)

[tossbag]

you're talking biiiiig dollars to purchase and install something in a certified aircraft though there's a few new ones popping up for Experimental's in the sub-$2000 range

Ironic? Certified aircraft are becoming relics, continually tarted up on the inside with 1930's, 40's etc technology, witness the continued stupidity of relying on vacuum pump run instruments, and the stupid cost of such.

Conversely, witness the extraordinary Dynon Skyview making its way into certified aircraft, bringing with it the ability to install ADSB IN at a reasonable cost. You've gotta laugh at the 'certified guru's' turning their nose up at Dynon!

Now that SIDS will no longer be compulsory there'll be a bit of money left over for avioincs!

[KRviator]

Ironic? Certified aircraft are becoming relics, continually tarted up on the inside with 1930's, 40's etc technology, witness the continued stupidity of relying on vacuum pump run instruments, and the stupid cost of such.

Conversely, witness the extraordinary Dynon Skyview making its way into certified aircraft, bringing with it the ability to install ADSB IN at a reasonable cost. You've gotta laugh at the 'certified guru's' turning their nose up at Dynon!

Now that SIDS will no longer be compulsory there'll be a bit of money left over for avioincs!Spot on. :ok: I've got dual Dynon SkyViews in the RV and wouldn't even think about anything else in a certified aircraft I owned except perhaps a G3X system and only then if it offered an autopilot STC, however, I understand the blokes at Horsham (and others) are installing the Dynon AP under an EO across a range of certified birds.

Being able to have a fully integrated system that monitors anything and everything you could imagine right down to something as simple as ignition switch state and then provides an spoken alarm if something upsets it is lightyears ahead in terms of safety than TSO'd equipment. Garmin is similar with their G3X system, but not quite as advanced as Dynon in terms of their alerts, IIRC, though I believe they do offer much better integration with their other products, but that's to be expected, I guess.

[tossbag]

I understand the blokes at Horsham (and others) are installing the Dynon AP under an EO across a range of certified birds.

The Dynon autopilot is a gamechanger as well. It actually works!

[43Inches]

This is worth a read regarding issues in the USA and mid air collisions, particularly Alaska where the number of landing areas within a specified area makes the Ballina/Lismore/Casino area look desolate.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR2104.pdf

2.3 Lack of Alerting This accident underscores the serious inherent limitations of the see-and-avoid concept, which remains the primary means of collision avoidance in VFR conditions. Scientific literature on human performance in aviation (Gibb et al 2010b) and previous NTSB accident reports (discussed below) have described these limitations and argued that they cannot be overcome simply by pilot diligence in scanning for traffic. In previous midair accident investigations, the NTSB has noted that CDTI can supplement pilots’ visual scans and provide awareness of conflicting traffic targets minutes before these targets become a collision threat. In 2015, a Cessna 150M and a Lockheed Martin F-16CM collided in flight near Moncks Corner, South Carolina. Because of the high closure rate involved, each pilot had a limited opportunity to see and avoid the other airplane. A postaccident simulation showed that devices in the cockpit that display or alert to traffic conflicts might have provided both pilots with clear traffic depictions and aural alerts as the conflict developed and could have enabled them to avoid the collision.62 In addition, in 2015, a Cessna 172M and an NA265-60SC Sabreliner collided while maneuvering for landing at Brown Field Municipal Airport, San Diego, California. A postaccident simulation showed that a CDTI in one or both of the airplanes could have provided a traffic picture that likely would have allowed the pilots to become aware of and look for the other airplane and may have prevented the accident.63 As a result, in 2016, the NTSB issued Safety Alert 58, “Prevent Midair Collisions: Don’t Depend on Vision Alone,” to inform pilots of the benefits of technologies that provide traffic displays and alerts in the cockpit to enhance safe separation from traffic.64


Here is Safety Alert 58;

https://www.ntsb.gov/Advocacy/safety-alerts/Documents/SA-058.pdf

[Chronic Snoozer]

This is worth a read regarding issues in the USA and mid air collisions, particularly Alaska where the number of landing areas within a specified area makes the Ballina/Lismore/Casino area look desolate.

Here is Safety Alert 58;

https://www.ntsb.gov/Advocacy/safety-alerts/Documents/SA-058.pdf

From that safety alert, my bolding -

"ADS-B is transforming all segments of aviation. Real-time precision, shared situational awareness, advanced applications for pilots and controllers alike – these are the hallmarks of ADS-B NextGen surveillance.

Real-time ADS-B is now the preferred method of surveillance for air traffic control in the NAS
General aviation is safer with ADS-B traffic, weather, and flight-information services
Safety and efficiency improve with advanced ADS-B applications

ADS-B improves safety and efficiency in the air and on runways, reduces costs, and lessens harmful effects on the environment."

[Lead Balloon]

POB JQF and AEM near Mangalore on 19 Feb 2020 might beg to differ from that rosy message, but we'll never know. And there's no detail of the extent to which the claimed improvements rely on the 'IN' capability.

[Chronic Snoozer]

The "In" Thing in Aviation Safety (https://​​​express.adobe.com/page/w075b3l207kUe/)

[Lead Balloon]

Jeez, if it's only an extra USD500, the idiom 'no brainer' comes to mind.

[43Inches]

The report regarding the Hudson river collision is pretty defining. Basically says the controllers can't watch you all the time (happened in RADAR controlled airspace) and if they had proper training and had heeded the conflict warnings from their own systems it would have been a different outcome. The floatplane collision was another where one aircraft had its altitude readout 'switched off', had it been on, the other aircraft would have received an aural and visual alert to the conflict.

The technology is more than capable of saving lives, however the persistence with RADAR controllers and see and avoid being 'enough' works against it's proper use.

As for rejigging CTAFs for radio broadcasting changes, it's moving deck chairs on the Titanic. In Alaska they tried the multicom thing, combined frequencies, so on, and found no real reduction in the rate of Midairs in high traffic zone (16 since 2005, 4 more since the CTAF changes in 2014). Suprise, suprise, the big finding is if you don't mandate calls, most don't talk, and if no one talks and you rely on see and avoid, they hit each other.

WRT to JQF vs AEM, if only one of those aircraft had a CDTI the incident would most likely not have happened as at least one of the pilots would have been alerted to proximity.

[Lead Balloon]

An RPT jet collision with a Jizzler 700 in the vicinity of Ballina (or Mildura or...) will sink the Titanic.

[Chronic Snoozer]

WRT to JQF vs AEM, if only one of those aircraft had a CDTI the incident would most likely not have happened as at least one of the pilots would have been alerted to proximity.

Do you mean like this proposal from 2005?

Broadcast (ADS-B) Study and Implementation Task Force (ADS-B TF/3) (https://www.icao.int/Meetings/AMC/MA/2005/ADSB_ADSB_TF3/ip10.pdf)

"Cockpit Display of Traffic Information (CDTI) is a key element of the proposed Australian ADS-B Lower Airspace Program currently under consideration by the country’s aviation industry."

[mikewil]

Are there any EFBs that display ADSB traffic over their 4G connections?

I know of countless pilots who frequently switch between OZRunways and Flight Radar 24 to check on the traffic situation (and try to visualize the traffic from one map to another). I know the EFB providers enable ADSB-IN receivers to be connected to the iPads but the majority of pilots do not have this. I think it would be a pretty good option if EFB providers had some kind of arrangement to buy data from Flight Radar 24 and display it via the 4G cellular connection. I know this isn't perfect as cellular and FR ADSB coverage isn't everywhere, but it would be a hell of a lot safer than what we have now...

[Squawk7700]

Are there any EFBs that display ADSB traffic over their 4G connections?

I know of countless pilots who frequently switch between OZRunways and Flight Radar 24 to check on the traffic situation (and try to visualize the traffic from one map to another). I know the EFB providers enable ADSB-IN receivers to be connected to the iPads but the majority of pilots do not have this. I think it would be a pretty good option if EFB providers had some kind of arrangement to buy data from Flight Radar 24 and display it via the 4G cellular connection. I know this isn't perfect as cellular and FR ADSB coverage isn't everywhere, but it would be a hell of a lot safer than what we have now...

The issue with displaying traffic via the internet is control and latency. There’s extra hops and latency between the two that can’t be controlled. For example, if an EFB took a feed from a 3rd party ADSB receiver network, what controls are around that data, what is the link latency and where is the data hosted (country)?

The best method is via an ADSB-in device, because the data can be controlled directly from the EFB, so they can decide what it shown and what isn’t. Have you ever noticed how FR24 or similar “estimate” where the other aircraft may be when signal is lost? Imagine if the feed from there was relied upon but was an estimate and the aircraft was not where the other pilot expected it to be!

A “Ping” or “Skyecho” is directly reading the info from the other aircraft, not via a website hosted on the other side of the world, via Cisco networks and an unreliable 4G connection.

Short of that, there is a 3rd party app available right now that does exactly what you’re suggesting and feeds traffic into the two EFB’s.

[Squawk7700]

Do you mean like this proposal from 2005?

Broadcast (ADS-B) Study and Implementation Task Force (ADS-B TF/3) (https://www.icao.int/Meetings/AMC/MA/2005/ADSB_ADSB_TF3/ip10.pdf)

"Cockpit Display of Traffic Information (CDTI) is a key element of the proposed Australian ADS-B Lower Airspace Program currently under consideration by the country’s aviation industry."

We will get there eventually when hardware manufacturers expand integration into PFD’s etc like Dynon have with their ADSB-in module.

“The information can be shown on Eurotelematik’s certified CDTI 2000 multifunction display or, as a lower cost alternative, on a pocket PC“

Replace Pocket PC with iPad I guess.

[Cloudee]

Are there any EFBs that display ADSB traffic over their 4G connections?..

I use Avplan on a mini ipad and it shows ADSB traffic.

[43Inches]

It can't be stressed enough that traffic that comes from an 'internet' feed is not going to be real time, so you must not use it for separation. You could use it to get an idea who's in the area, but DO NOT use it for separation. Getting weather from internet broadcast 'radar' sites is the same, its past history, not current data. As said above it's very important to know the difference between how your traffic display derives it's information and training is essential to effectively use it. Most airlines consider TCAS a last line of defense, that is it's not the primary device to separate you from traffic. Your eyes, ears, information passed from ATS and brain are the primary separation, CDTIs are a fallback in case you fail.

[Lead Balloon]

Well said, 43. That’s why staring at gizmos - especially ones that are displaying delayed or estimated or potentially corrupted data - is risky.

[morno]

It amazes me the number of people who say “I’ve got you on TCAS” like it actually means something. Unless it’s ADSB-IN, the lateral accuracy of TCAS is so rubbish, you’d be nuts to use it for anything other than vertical seperation.

[mikewil]

The issue with displaying traffic via the internet is control and latency. There’s extra hops and latency between the two that can’t be controlled. For example, if an EFB took a feed from a 3rd party ADSB receiver network, what controls are around that data, what is the link latency and where is the data hosted (country)?

The best method is via an ADSB-in device, because the data can be controlled directly from the EFB, so they can decide what it shown and what isn’t. Have you ever noticed how FR24 or similar “estimate” where the other aircraft may be when signal is lost? Imagine if the feed from there was relied upon but was an estimate and the aircraft was not where the other pilot expected it to be!.

in relation to your comment about there being no controls in place about latency etc or the reliability of the 4G network, but really the limited traffic displayed on the device from other devices running the same app suffers similar limitations.

I agree that it is not a perfect solution and shouldn't be relied upon for separation but regarding your comment about an aircraft not being where the pilot expects it to be, isn't this the same problem with TCAS and all the other cheaper GA installations that try and display Mode C/S transponder returns on a map?

[Squawk7700]

in relation to your comment about there being no controls in place about latency etc or the reliability of the 4G network, but really the limited traffic displayed on the device from other devices running the same app suffers similar limitations.

I agree that it is not a perfect solution and shouldn't be relied upon for separation but regarding your comment about an aircraft not being where the pilot expects it to be, isn't this the same problem with TCAS and all the other cheaper GA installations that try and display Mode C/S transponder returns on a map?

The difference in displaying traffic to the same app users versus cross EFB’s is again, if it’s run by the one provider, they can set their own thresholds for display. Eg if the aircraft doesn’t ping for 5 seconds, delete it from the screen immediately. If you’re getting a feed from elsewhere, how do you know what algorithm is in place to provide you with that traffic in the first place? How old is said traffic?

Anything hardware based with a direct live signal reception is y far superior in every way.

TCAS feeds coming from a hardware mounted receiver as going to be as close to real-time as you’ll ever get.

[43Inches]

TCAS is designed to highlight conflicts, alert the crew and display a position to assist the crew in visual acquisition of the target. The closer you get to a conflict the more accurate the picture becomes, at range its not highly accurate though. However should you fail to sight the target and it gets too close, the unit will give a resolution to avoid. That's when it starts making lots of noise, things turn red etc... It is not designed to be a quasi radar scope, you can't say for sure a target is X aircraft as it does not display enough information. However that said, you can see stuff at range and then get an idea something is out there and try to communicate with it, so for situational awareness it is pretty good. I'd still separate by a safe margin altitude, track, distance, but you can use TCAS to see when something passes, then talk to it to get actual position to confirm clear. That then relieves constant position updating and radio clutter. eg " XXX I'll maintain 6000, you stay at 5000" then watch it pass on TCAS, "XXX whats your current Distance and track", (XXX responds with a GPS distance and track away from you), "XXX all clear, see ya later" or whatever.... Good thing is if either party stuffs up the TCAS will show it happening and you can query them and get ready for avoiding action.

[KRviator]

The other problem with OzRunways and AvPlan traffic is, unless it's from an ADS-B output (and even then there's a lot of erroneous callsigns, particularly among the RAAus/HGFA crowd), the callsigns often bear no relationship to reality. So even if you identify them as a potential conflict, how do you call them? "Brisbane Center, Alpha Bravo Charlie, are you talking to Crunchie who's doing airwork south of Dalby?" :ugh:

Here's a snippet from SEQld right now. Crunchie and Arch are out and about, someone with no callsign (Unknown) is tooling around Caboolture and there's a Dash-8 in the mix too.

So how do you address Crunchie or Arch? Are they in a Drifter or a Diamond? Doing circuits or airwork in the area or a low-level NavEx? Neither have got an active flightplan in the app so you don't know what their lateral track is going to be nor can you infer they're on a cross-country so will be climbing to altitude and staying high. At least the Dash-8 Driver has his plan showing so you know where he's going and that he might be an issueif you're also going to Chinchilla.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/879x445/ozruwnays_cb309d64b03e1e8cc9cfe142159b5ee482328017.jpg

[43Inches]

As far as I'm aware most airlines will require EFBs to be in 'flight mode' while airborne, so the chance of seeing Ozrunways airliners will be rare, until they move into the modern era and stop using drums for advanced communication. As for how you address the unknowns, well, if they call themselves Crunchie or Arch, try that over the radio. If not "Traffic approximately 10 miles north of Flinton at 1000 ft what are you intentions" or something like that.... If center sees you on screen and need to communicate they will use your ADSB tag if no one answers a call, have heard them do it numerous times and pass on the tag information to IFR traffic to try to contact, with the provision it is just a squawk tag.

[Ironpot]

TCAS is designed to highlight conflicts, alert the crew and display a position to assist the crew in visual acquisition of the target. The closer you get to a conflict the more accurate the picture becomes, at range its not highly accurate though. However should you fail to sight the target and it gets too close, the unit will give a resolution to avoid. That's when it starts making lots of noise, things turn red etc... It is not designed to be a quasi radar scope, you can't say for sure a target is X aircraft as it does not display enough information. However that said, you can see stuff at range and then get an idea something is out there and try to communicate with it, so for situational awareness it is pretty good. I'd still separate by a safe margin altitude, track, distance, but you can use TCAS to see when something passes, then talk to it to get actual position to confirm clear. That then relieves constant position updating and radio clutter. eg " XXX I'll maintain 6000, you stay at 5000" then watch it pass on TCAS, "XXX whats your current Distance and track", (XXX responds with a GPS distance and track away from you), "XXX all clear, see ya later" or whatever.... Good thing is if either party stuffs up the TCAS will show it happening and you can query them and get ready for avoiding action.


... whereas ADSB IN displayed on the MFD will show, accurately, the position and current track of equipped aircraft. It starts to send audible warnings when altitudes approach 1000' and is particularly handy when you are on a reciprocal track.

[Dick Smith]

Do all ADSB "in" units give an audible warning?

[tossbag]

I would imagine that you could configure any PFD for audible warnings.

[Squawk7700]

One of the main EFB’s has them and for the other, it’s coming soon.

[mikewil]

Do any TCAS systems use ADSB inputs or is it still all mode C based?

[OZBUSDRIVER]

MW, TCAS receives the Mode S portion of the ADS-B transponder.

[Dick Smith]

But does it transmit a signal so that TCAS will work in an airline aircraft which does not have ADSB in.

[esreverlluf]

I'm sure the Jizzler 700 comes fully equipped with TCAS II and ADS-B as standard.

Also - can someone please post a photo of a Jizzler 700 so I know what to look out for next time I have to go to Ballina.

[Lead Balloon]

I'm sure the Jizzler 700 comes fully equipped with TCAS II and ADS-B as standard.

Also - can someone please post a photo of a Jizzler 700 so I know what to look out for next time I have to go to Ballina.
Jizzler 700A (nosewheel variant) during taxi trials: https://youtu.be/TWOyM9Axn-w

[esreverlluf]

Jizzler 700A (nosewheel variant) during taxi trials: https://youtu.be/TWOyM9Axn-w
Thanks for that - I'm sure I'll know what it is if I see one now. Looks like quite a machine.

[cogwheel]

The airspace proposal for Ballina has now bounced around CASA & ASA for some time and this is the result....

New radio frequencies are being introduced to ease congestion and increase safety around Ballina, Lismore, Casino and Evans Head aerodromes.

From 16 June 2022 the following Common Traffic Advisory Frequency (CTAF) will apply in these vicinities:


Ballina – 124.2 MHz (no change)
Lismore and Casino – 132.45 MHz
Evans Head – Multicom CTAF of 126.7 MHz




there is very little comment on this change elsewhere in what I can find on the web etc.

there was a proposal for a class D tower floating around, but seems ASA don’t want to pay for it and obviously some senior manager/s in CASA don’t seem to want to push it. I just hope there is a good safety case for this proposal.

[tossbag]

Am I right in saying that Lismore is underneath one of the Ballina RNP's? But now on separate frequencies. That sounds smart.

[Chronic Snoozer]

See and avoid mate. :ooh: (AKA Note and collide visually)

[MechEngr]

Something I did not see mentioned in the above is that ADSB Out doesn't have to originate with the aircraft. If there is primary radar coverage of an area the radar operator can broadcast an ADSB message that identifies a Jizzler 700 (et al) with location, altitude, and airspeed. This also applies to balloons, ultralights, powered parachutes, and other small aircraft that (at least in the US) may be prohibited from broadcasting ADSB messages. When even airport service vehicles can have ADSB Out it's a shame it's not more widely used.

What is stunning is how easy ADSB In is - xjet in New Zealand built his own system for safer operation of drones and remotely controlled airplanes. RasPi, small display, and an SDR (Software Defined Radio module) - maybe $100-200 USD? Chip availability may have component limiting effects for the time being.

https://youtu.be/eX2470l2LR4?t=56 and not the only one, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKF2BiLjtmU

[Lead Balloon]

I built one of the Stratux ones. Amazing thing is how many (even high level RPT aircraft) you can spot visually, with the aid of the output of the unit displayed on the EFB screen. None of those high level aircraft is a collision risk - very ‘high’ while us nobodies are very ‘low’ - but it does demonstrate that the unit picks up and provides pretty accurate information about aircraft putting out Mode C data.

But the ‘blindspot’ is that it requires ‘something’ to be interrogating the other aircraft’s transponder….

[Squawk7700]

But the ‘blindspot’ is that it requires ‘something’ to be interrogating the other aircraft’s transponder….

Are you certain about that for ADSB units? I’ve been reading a lot about ADSB since fitting a new transponder last week and I hadn’t thought about that. I know that’s how Mode C works and the issues with TCAS versus PCAS but experience tells me that even a skyecho can be detected by another skyecho when not in range of a ground ADSB station and they don’t have a mode Charlie to be interrogated by radar, unless somehow it’s being interrogated by something that I’m not aware of.

I’m finding ADSB is generally not well understood by pilots. For example I keep hearing statements like “I know my ADSB is working because ATC knew my callsign” from pilots not realising that they are equipped with Mode-S transponders. I also understand that close to Melbourne and Sydney for example, that ATC see only Mode C/S and that ADSB is only visible to them outside of primary radar coverage. Moorabbin for example told me that they don’t have ADSB at all.

If anyone knows more specifics about what the controller sees, I would love to hear more. I also understand that some gps inputs are approved and some are certified and the ATC can see both, however they appear as grey for ADSB 2020 approved and green for certified, and of course only outside of traditional mode C/S radar coverage.

[Awol57]

Ground radar is a combination of ADSB and primary, so tower controllers can see both (usually). I understand that the TCU's are generally primary and secondary only, but I could well be wrong about that.

[Squawk7700]

I had a controller say recently “I can’t see you on ADSB because I can see you on mode C” which I found interesting.

Would be good to hear from an ATC’er as to what actually appears on the screen.

[faction]

I understand the RFDS has ADSB out but not in.

The RFDS PC24s have ADSB in.

[MechEngr]

I built one of the Stratux ones. Amazing thing is how many (even high level RPT aircraft) you can spot visually, with the aid of the output of the unit displayed on the EFB screen. None of those high level aircraft is a collision risk - very ‘high’ while us nobodies are very ‘low’ - but it does demonstrate that the unit picks up and provides pretty accurate information about aircraft putting out Mode C data.

But the ‘blindspot’ is that it requires ‘something’ to be interrogating the other aircraft’s transponder….

ADS-B Out position messages are/ought to be transmitted once-per second, no interrogation required. I don't know about message collision avoidance in ADS-B, but I am aware that potential saturation of the time available for messages is supposed to be the reason that it was specifically banned for use from unmanned aircraft, aka drones/remote control aircraft. What happens with other radar/communication systems that also integrate ADS-B data is something else, but all on it's own there is no interrogation required.

This may be better explanation: https://www.icao.int/meetings/amc/ma/2005/adsb_sitf4/sp01.pdf

[Lead Balloon]

Thanks ME. If ADS-B out equipped aircraft are ‘automatically’ transmitting position/alt through their Mode C transponder every second or so, I stand corrected in relation to those aircraft. Doesn’t seem to help with aircraft wth Mode C transponders but not ADS-B out, though. Presumably they have to be interrogated by ‘something’, first?

[le Pingouin]

I had a controller say recently “I can’t see you on ADSB because I can see you on mode C” which I found interesting.

Would be good to hear from an ATC’er as to what actually appears on the screen.

When we're receiving both SSR and ADS-B returns we see an SSR symbol on the screen (a circle) plus we get a small letter "b" appended to one line of label data indicating ADS-B is also being received, so we know we can continue using surveillance standards when the aircraft enters ADS-B only coverage. If only SSR is being received (either no ADS-B coverage or aircraft not ADS-B equipped) we don't get the "b". For TCU the "b" isn't displayed at all.

In ADS-B only coverage we see a four bladed "propeller" symbol and the "b" disappears. For TCU they still see a circle symbol regardless of whether it's SSR or ADS-B.

We can toggle the display to show what you're squawking but SSR takes priority if both are being received, i.e. we can't see your ADS-B code while you're in SSR coverage.

[Squawk7700]

Thanks LP, most helpful.

One more thing :-) are there changes in colour on the screen icons if the GPS is certified to TSO199 versus 146 / approved but not certified?

[le Pingouin]

No change in colour but I think it will only display a symbol for registered hex codes.

[malroy]

For TCU the "b" isn't displayed at all.

In ADS-B only coverage we see a four bladed "propeller" symbol and the "b" disappears. For TCU they still see a circle symbol regardless of whether it's SSR or ADS-B.
Most TCU do not receive adsb. They need an extra processor to convert the adsb returns into a fake radar return. This is available in sydney, melbourne and hobart.