Mount Disappointment helicopter crash 31/3/2022

[mickjoebill]

Emergency services began response at 9:30 to an "aviation incident" at Mount Disappointment.
3 emergency response helicopters and the SAR jet have responded.
10 ground units are fighting a bushfire. :(
C7 reporting there are 7 people on board, make and type not in the public domain

Edit: C7 reporting it is a helicopter. Due to low cloud locating the crash site is difficult. (Flight radar tracks of the rescue aircraft confirms)
Not necessarily accurate, the emergency services map has the incident icon located 100 meters north from a "H" icon at the summitt @780 meters.
edit: abc news report two helcopters were "in a convoy" enroute from Melbourne.
Perhaps related, Flight radar shows an EC30 leaving the yarra, flying to the East of Mt Disappointment then doing utrun and backtracking it's path performing what could be an aerial search and then proceeding across to Mangalore. The difference in northbound to southbound speed displayed on FR was 50 knots.

Mjb

[uncle8]

Webtrack shows a helicopter closely followed by a Cessna 208 with the 208 last showing near Mt. Disappointment at 7.56am.

[mickjoebill]

Edit 1:30pm Beware, no other source has reported the aircraft has been found!

https://www.facebook.com/1397712960464383/posts/3452611461641179/


Mjb

[Mark__]

Could it be VH-XWD an EC-130 owned by the Deague Group (Property Developer and Builder)? Looks like it departed Moorabbin at 07:10 local, picked up at the Melbourne CBD then tracked towards the Mt Disappointment area where the tracking ended at 07:57.

[joebenson]

It went to Lilydale not Mt Disappointment

[Mark__]

It went to Lilydale not Mt Disappointment

The actual track doesn’t reflect that though.

[Squawk7700]

It was XWD.

[Mark__]

It was XWD.

Thanks Squawk. Fingers crossed for a miracle.

[vee1-rotate]

XWD, and the 2nd tail was WVV which ended up landing at Mangalore

[mickjoebill]

Correction to earlier reports, there were 5 persons onboard.
Staging point is Blair's Hut, bulldozers will be used to create a track to the site.
Crews being winched in at moment.
Live abc interview from scene at 17:00 hrs, reporter states police have not stated the fate of the occupants.
Herald Sun report the destination was Yarrawonga.


Mjb

[Desert Flower]

Channel 10 News is reporting that wreckage has been found.

DF.

[tail wheel]

5POB. Sadly RIP. :(

It was a charter category operation.

[Pearly White]

Police locate helicopter crash site after search near Mt DisappointmentArticle in The Age (https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/emergency-crews-responding-to-aviation-incident-at-mt-disappointment-20220331-p5a9o0.html)

[Squawk7700]

The Yarrawonga destination is a curve ball because the news reporter said that there was a bus waiting at the CBD pad to drive the returning passengers to Geelong. Passengers that never came. That being said though, that was later in the day and it may have been when it was due to return.

[Capt Fathom]

A bit too soon to know anything really. So let’s just keep speculating. Someone can later claim ‘that’s what I said.’

[Squawk7700]

A bit too soon to know anything really. So let’s just keep speculating. Someone can later claim ‘that’s what I said.’

I don’t believe anyone has speculated anything just yet !

[Sunfish]

Press is just reporting five POB, no survivors. Rest in peace.

[Mach1Muppet]

Condolences to those involved.

[mickjoebill]

The track of the other aircraft, which had its adsl registering with flight radar app, is heartbreaking.

I was hoping poor cell coverage in the area was an explanation for the lack of contact.

It is astonishing how a downed helicopter can be enveloped by a forest and my thoughts are with the emergency response aircrews trying to find the needle in the haystack in the adverse weather conditions.
Mjb

[Squawk7700]

The track of the other aircraft, which had its adsl registering with flight radar app, is heartbreaking.

I was hoping poor cell coverage in the area was an explanation for the lack of contact.

It is astonishing how a downed helicopter can be enveloped by a forest and my thoughts are with the emergency response aircrews trying to find the needle in the haystack in the adverse weather conditions.
Mjb

I heard that the aircraft may have been located by EFB tracking. Good to know that in the right conditions (eg phone coverage) that you can be found quickly by simply having been running an iPad. Assuming that you are able to survive the downing.

[missy]

Very sad, Condolences to all involved.

[0ttoL]

I heard that the aircraft may have been located by EFB tracking. Good to know that in the right conditions (eg phone coverage) that you can be found quickly by simply having been running an iPad. Assuming that you are able to survive the downing.

RSCU660, the Rescue Challenger left Essendon and went straight to the site and then circled for several hours while various helicopters tried to make their way to the centre of the circle.
I was assuming that they went straight to an ELT signal. Either EFB or ELT would work, I guess.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/980x818/screen_shot_2022_04_01_at_9_31_35_am_d11c1dd785f2d325523d965 f0fc1c9b701395dfc.png

[industry insider]

GT has conducted an investigation. ATSB may as well go home.Analysis of flight data identifies possible cause of fatal helicopter crash on Mt Disappointment in Victoriahttps://images.thewest.com.au/assets/profiles/GeoffreyThomas_thumb.png?imwidth=110&impolicy=wan_v3
Geoffrey Thomas (https://thewest.com.au/profile/geoffrey-thomas)The West Australian
Fri, 1 April 2022 7:06PMHow can it be that a top of the range helicopter operated by a well-run company with an excellent track record crashes with everybody on board dying?

That is the mystery confronting Australian Transport Safety Bureau investigators as they pick through the tangled wreckage of the five-year-old Airbus EC130 helicopter operated by Microflite.

The pilot, 32-year-old Dean Neal, was a former Westpac rescue helicopter pilot, giving him years of experience in tough conditions

According to Flightaware tracking data, the helicopter — part of a two-ship formation that departed from Melbourne on Thursday morning — was flying normally at a constant speed of about 322km/h at a stable altitude of around 240m.

But 14 minutes before the crash the speed became erratic, with 11 sharp changes and the altitude increased dramatically.

The speed went from a high of 339km/h to just 176km/h, while the altitude increased to 1050m, some 200m above the highest point on Mt Disappointment.
https://images.thewest.com.au/publication/C-6290638/a3f6445f86c3e6737ed485a72e2c3f64b9f1b14b.jpg?imwidth=810&impolicy=wan_v3 According to Flightaware tracking data, the helicopter, flown by Dean Neal, was flying normally at a constant speed of about 322km/h at a stable altitude of around 240m. Credit: Instagram/InstagramThe data seems to indicate a severe weather event, possibly wind shear, which is defined as a wind direction and/or speed change over a vertical or horizontal distance.

This has been fatal when it causes changes to the headwind or tailwind such that the aircraft or helicopter is abruptly displaced from its intended flight path and substantial control action is required to correct it.

The fact there was no distress call means little because in an emergency situation the first priority of the pilot is to stabilise the helicopter or aircraft, fly out of trouble and then advise air traffic control.
https://images.thewest.com.au/publication/C-6290638/e769d9e0ae8d96a083b43267893897467598ba60.jpg?imwidth=810&impolicy=wan_v3 Australian Transport Safety Bureau investigators now face the job of picking through the tangled wreckage of the five-year-old Airbus EC130 helicopter operated by Microflite. Credit: 7NEWS/7NEWSWinds around mountains have been deadly many times with tumbling rotors forming as the wind climbs up the mountain and then rolls off the top, like a wave crashing at a beach.

Mountains act like rocks in a fast flowing stream, only in these instances it’s an air stream.

It may take months to learn what factors conspired to tragically end five lives on a Victorian mountain on Thursday.

[Squawk7700]

Maybe Geoff should talk to the other pilot before making such bold assessments.

[Chronic Snoozer]

I've been prepared to cut GT some slack because he speaks to the punters in a language they can understand and he is after all a journalist, paid for comment. To have this pass an editor at the The West is embarrassing. In my opinion of course. In fact why call it journalism anymore at all? It's now just morphed into opinionism.

How can it be that a top of the range helicopter operated by a well-run company with an excellent track record crashes with everybody on board dying?

That is what the experts will figure out.

[Lead Balloon]

Maybe Geoff should talk to the other pilot before making such bold assessments.
Yes - it would be hardly surprising if both were 'on the numbers'.

But as with so many incident, GT's already sorted this one. ATSB must be thankful.

[Karijini49]

It should be quite simple to either discard GT's scenario outright or to leave it in the category "perhaps that's what happened". All one needs is the last part of the flightpath, the exact location of the crash, the low level winds in the area and the vertical stability of the atmosphere in the area. All this information can be relatively easily sourced. Then with a good understanding of air flow around mountains and perhaps a numerical model simulation, one can find out if such a rotor-system could possibly have been present at the time. Knowing the flightpath of the second helicopter and talking to its pilot should also shed light on this question, although such rotor-phenomena can be rather small - as every glider pilot knows who has flown in the mountains. I'm sure ATSB will do all this.

[Colin Nicholson]

First thing I did - look at weather ...Melbourne wind gusting to 25 SSE 7/8 08:00 Anybody want to guess what the wind was at Mt D since his speed was about 15kts higher than Vne.and maybe 40 kts higher than normal cruise

[Lead Balloon]

All one needs is the last part of the flightpath, the exact location of the crash, the low level winds in the area and the vertical stability of the atmosphere in the area. All this information can be relatively easily sourced.Could one provide the source from which one would obtain reliable low wind data for the area and reliable vertical stability of the atmosphere data for the area? One seems remarkably confident of the availability of data reliable enough to make some profoundly important judgments.

[Colin Nicholson]

Ah hello, I simply read the historical data of the melbourne weather and correlated his speeds with the capability of the helicopter.

[industry insider]

Colin wrote

First thing I did - look at weather ...Melbourne wind gusting to 25 SSE 7/8 08:00 Anybody want to guess what the wind was at Mt D since his speed was about 15kts higher than Vne.and maybe 40 kts higher than normal cruise

I think the 322km/h (175knots) must be ground speed because that's what Flight Aware and Flight Radar normally shows.

[compressor stall]

Well the companion chopper on flight aware was grounding 133 kts heading north. Just before the ranges he doubles back southwards for a short period and grounds 73 knots before heading north again.

Whatever the wind direction / speed was it had a southerly vector of 30 kts.

Based off flight aware data of course. With its limitations.

Of course it doesn’t tell you what other weather conditions that may or may not have been a factor..

[Lead Balloon]

Who knew that ground speed could be different to air speed, as a consequence of the wind? Remarkable.

[Sunfish]

Buller was a steady 30 kts gusting 40 from SE around 8 am (from BOM data). From memory NAIPS was forecasting severe turb below 6000 over the ranges,

[gerry111]

There were influential pax on board so it was obviously pilot error.

[Squawk7700]

There is little talk of cloud. The cameras at the Kilmore gap will tell a significant story if they store historical images. The cloud at Romsey around 40kms to the west was as good as on the ground and that is at 1,000ft. Mt Disappointment elevation is 2,640ft. The windsock at Romsey appears to be showing a NW breeze.

[601]

No one has mentioned the dead trees that have been bleached white, a deadly combination.

[ACMS]

I’d like to know why they “decided” to fly across the biggest hill in the worst weather? Asking for trouble.
Can’t a Helicopter slow to a crawl and heavens forbid hover and turn around if they can’t see forward to avoid the hard stuff?

[Squawk7700]

No one has mentioned the dead trees that have been bleached white, a deadly combination.

Can you please elaborate, I’m not sure what you mean? Are they harder to see?

[compressor stall]

It’s an interesting point. May or may not have relevance. After Black Saturday (I think, but I’ve seen in other places in the vic alps post big fires) dead mountain ash remain, now white, poking.a hundred feet or more above the green living foliage.

IF they were scud running due stress of weather they may be hard to see in flat light.

News footage showed one that had been hit and sheared - presumably in the accident sequence, but of course no information into how - and I make no implication - the chopper came to hit it.

[Arm out the window]

I’d like to know why they “decided” to fly across the biggest hill in the worst weather? Asking for trouble.
Can’t a Helicopter slow to a crawl and heavens forbid hover and turn around if they can’t see forward to avoid the hard stuff?

It's hardly ever that simple, unfortunately. Depending on weight and DA you may not even be able to hover out of ground effect sometimes, in which case forward airspeed needs to be maintained.

You also need to be able to see to hover (unless the machine is fitted with sophisticated equipment), so if you're trying to pick a way around low cloud in the hills and valleys, even at a slow crawl, it's a terrible situation to be in. Inadvertent IMC would be bad enough at low level over flat terrain in terms of maintaining control, but among the hills, even a max angle climb on instruments (assuming the helicopter was equipped and the pilot trained and ready for it) would be a lottery to miss the ground until you were above LSALT.

Even if you did happen to have a state of the art aircraft with autohover as per the modern EMS machines, it might be able to hold you in one spot, but I very much doubt it could get you safely out of a clagged in valley with high terrain all around (although I stand to be corrected, haven't flown these types).

[Squawk7700]

Video of flightpath

[Lookleft]

Well the saying goes that a picture is worth a thousand words. The "What Happened" section of the report is on that video. This accident would have to be unique in that two helicopters on the same charter, in the same weather and on the same flight path (most of the way) end up with two very different outcomes.

[Squawk7700]

Well the saying goes that a picture is worth a thousand words. The "What Happened" section of the report is on that video. This accident would have to be unique in that two helicopters on the same charter, in the same weather and on the same flight path (most of the way) end up with two very different outcomes.

If the radar information is correct, the final 16 seconds of the flight give a descent rate of slightly over 4,000 feet per minute. I’m not familiar with the descent rate of said machine in an auto-rotation event, however I’m led to believe it should be around 2,000fpm, which puts things into perspective.

[Sunfish]

I fail to understand why the aircraft was anywhere near Mt Disappointment in what appears may have been marginal weather at best. Newspaper reports allege that Batman Park was the pickup point and Ulupna was the destination.

A direct track between those points runs parallel to the Hume Freeway leaving Wallan and Wandong about a mile to the West and Mt Disappointment about four miles East when abeam. Such a track avoids the high forested parts of the Divide but it does traverse Melbourne controlled Airspace out to about Kalkallo.

One way the track might have intersected the Mt Disappointment area is if the helicopters planned to avoid controlled airspace or didn't receive a clearance through it and tracked East to say, Viewbank before turning North and tracking direct to Ulupna for reasons of time and economy instead of following the VFR corridor, which they must have crossed. that would have taken them to the Kilmore gap and relatively safer terrain afterwards.

However this is just speculation.

[601]

Can you please elaborate, I’m not sure what you mean? Are they harder to see?

The white tree trunks become invisible against low cloud.

[TWT]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1028x466/forest_9c0a8aaf8e2853ca167a60711bf3124f3bd6eb0b.png

[LapSap]

It's hardly ever that simple, unfortunately. Depending on weight and DA you may not even be able to hover out of ground effect sometimes, in which case forward airspeed needs to be maintained.

You also need to be able to see to hover (unless the machine is fitted with sophisticated equipment), so if you're trying to pick a way around low cloud in the hills and valleys, even at a slow crawl, it's a terrible situation to be in. Inadvertent IMC would be bad enough at low level over flat terrain in terms of maintaining control, but among the hills, even a max angle climb on instruments (assuming the helicopter was equipped and the pilot trained and ready for it) would be a lottery to miss the ground until you were above LSALT.

Even if you did happen to have a state of the art aircraft with autohover as per the modern EMS machines, it might be able to hold you in one spot, but I very much doubt it could get you safely out of a clagged in valley with high terrain all around (although I stand to be corrected, haven't flown these types).

Indeed.
Quite similar to the Kobe Bryant accident scenario it seems.

[jmcg22]

I always thought the scud running route was to follow the highway until you get through the Kilmore gap and get to the flat farming terrain. I wonder if they were following the GPS route which would have had them to the east of that track? Very sad.

[Duck Pilot]

Scud running is unacceptable and extremely dangerous for all the obvious reasons, even with the best equiped aircraft and the most experienced pilots. Who gives a **** about the regulations, this kind of flying will kill you.

I speak from experience and I was lucky enough to survive on many occasions scud running and pushing the limits in rubbish weather, sometimes in VFR aeroplanes. Was I stupid, YES! It’s called experience. However I’ve lost good mates who have done the same and met their final fate! All in PNG.

Food for thought people….

[ACMS]

Yes very true……..can’t wait for the report.

[On Track]

I have to agree with Duck Pilot.

I only did scud running over the mountains once and eventually had to divert to an airport (YCWR) in the opposite direction to where I was wanting to go (YSCN).

As the terrain was getting higher the cloud was getting lower, and daylight was fading earlier than expected. I knew I'd wandered off track and wasn't sure where I was.

If there hadn't been an airport nearby with a VOR and PAL I probably wouldn't have survived that very steep learning curve.

Fortunately I had a NVFR rating (but no CIR).

[jmcg22]

I agree but if you are doing one or the other you cannot combine the two. If you are staying VFR always leave a back door to get out and don't be too proud to divert. I was just wondering if this may have been a VFR flight using instruments/GPS. My only reason for thinking this was I laid a ruler onto a map from the departure point to the destination which put him over the higher ground. The article posted in WA did not ring true to me and I just thought that I would throw the the idea out there (with no real knowledge of the event).

[Squawk7700]

I agree but if you are doing one or the other you cannot combine the two. If you are staying VFR always leave a back door to get out and don't be too proud to divert. I was just wondering if this may have been a VFR flight using instruments/GPS. My only reason for thinking this was I laid a ruler onto a map from the departure point to the destination which put him over the higher ground. The article posted in WA did not ring true to me and I just thought that I would throw the the idea out there (with no real knowledge of the event).

You can safely assume it was a VFR flight.

[43Inches]

Pretty sure a few early press report had quotes along the lines of "did not emerge from low cloud, so the preceding turned to search for it" which most likely sums up what happened. While engine failure is still a possibility or other mechanical failure, the early comments all drive at they were dancing around low cloud. Low cloud, flat light, white dead ghost gums, all adds up to a nasty suprise that even if they were visual operating at low level would carry extreme risk. If they were IFR they needed to be another 1500-2000 ft higher to be anywhere near a LSA. The vid from the US where the Bonanza hit a tree in IMC while scudding is testament to how little warning you have, they were lucky to survive, it really should be available for pilots to watch repeatedly as to why you don't go into even the smallest whisp of cloud at low level.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2MVDY8o7Bs

[Squawk7700]

The radar clip posted above shows the sequence of events. The first one turns back, the second continues and the first one goes back again via a slightly different route and makes it through.

[john_tullamarine]

I frightened the living bejezus out of myself on more than one occasion as a young buck while winter flying west over the mountains from Bankstown/Camden. It's very hard to put older heads on younger shoulders without having the odd fright along the way ....

There will always be some VFR scud running activity. One very simple rule has stood the test of time. This was hammered into my skull during CPL training, especially if you fancy running up a valley. If you can't see the clear on the far side, with whatever depth margin you want, turn around/divert. Right then .... no ifs, buts, maybes.

The daughter of one of my parents' closest family friends lost her son and his mate when they didn't follow that simple rule doing the same sort of flight that I and many others have done in the same area .... The sad thing in that prang was that both of the kids survived, although injured, got out of the wreckage, but died in the following day or two. Flight plans and beacons have a lot to recommend for getting out of strife.

[tossbag]

The sad thing in that prang was that both of the kids survived, although injured, got out of the wreckage, but died in the following day or two

Tragic, and another 4 or 5 people killed in a crash looking for them if I recall?

[john_tullamarine]

Tragic, and another 4 or 5 people killed in a crash looking for them if I recall?

Not that I recall but it was quite a few years ago, now, so the brain cells may be a tad remiss ?

[roundsounds]

Tragic, and another 4 or 5 people killed in a crash looking for them if I recall?
you’re thinking of the Cessna 152 / 210 accidents out of Camden. The one referred to here is the Trinidad out of Bankstown.
the Trinidad was fitted with an ELT, it was burnt in the fire following the accident. Both crew managed to escape with some burns, but didn’t survive long enough to be rescued.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/24241/ASOR199303121.pdf

[john_tullamarine]

JTI was the one in question The lost boys | Flight Safety Australia (https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/2021/08/the-lost-boys/) adds a bit more to the other report. Fortunately, most of us manage, usually by good luck, to get enough experience to avoid these situations ...

[tossbag]

Not that I recall but it was quite a few years ago, now, so the brain cells may be a tad remiss ?

Didn't a C206 go looking for them? Then had an engine failure.

[John Eacott]

There is little talk of cloud. The cameras at the Kilmore gap will tell a significant story if they store historical images. The cloud at Romsey around 40kms to the west was as good as on the ground and that is at 1,000ft. Mt Disappointment elevation is 2,640ft. The windsock at Romsey appears to be showing a NW breeze.

Is using the Kilmore Gap AWS phone number common these days, or has it been 'lost' to the wonders of the Internet? 03 5783 2296 was almost a mandatory check call when planning north in all but the best weather days.

Some years back with the advent of the iPad and the 'Children of the Magenta Line' I had an enlightening experience with a pilot I was checking: when I took away his iPad he was totally and utterly lost, not even being able to identify Mansfield which was <5nm from us at the time. He was locked on to the Magenta Line and didn't have any sort of paper chart nor map to back up his flight.

Sign of the times :hmm:

[roundsounds]

Didn't a C206 go looking for them? Then had an engine failure.
That was a C210, VH-PLD and it was searching for a C152 VH-BUO. Similar area, different accidents.

[john_tullamarine]

when I took away his iPad he was totally and utterly lost

That's sad enough to be tragic. Much the same with the electronic calculator crowd who couldn't run a mental sum if their lives depended on it. I can only hope that more instructors (and examiners) do the same sort of thing as you did. It wouldn't take long for the message to get around the Industry.

Another one which saddens me is the steam driven whizz wheel. OK, pilots can use the electronic version. However, the examiner still requires a display of some sort of competence to pass the various pilot exams. Being involved with theory training, these days, I have seen so many who have utterly no idea of why they are doing what they thought they had learnt (parrot fashion) correctly. I even had one supposedly university level class in recent times where several of them complained vigorously and bitterly when I presented some basic math background as to why you did this and that with the wheel.

One can only wonder where it might end ?

[tossbag]

That was a C210, VH-PLD and it was searching for a C152 VH-BUO. Similar area, different accidents.

:ok:

Understood, thought it was the Trinidad accident.

[43Inches]

when I took away his iPad he was totally and utterly lost

That's sad enough to be tragic. Much the same with the electronic calculator crowd who couldn't run a mental sum if their lives depended on it. I can only hope that more instructors (and examiners) do the same sort of thing as you did. It wouldn't take long for the message to get around the Industry.

Another one which saddens me is the steam driven whizz wheel. OK, pilots can use the electronic version. However, the examiner still requires a display of some sort of competence to pass the various pilot exams. Being involved with theory training, these days, I have seen so many who have utterly no idea of why they are doing what they thought they had learnt (parrot fashion) correctly. I even had one supposedly university level class in recent times where several of them complained vigorously and bitterly when I presented some basic math background as to why you did this and that with the wheel.

One can only wonder where it might end ?

One of the big problems is that piloting and university have no correlation. The practical maths required for piloting an aircraft is sub year 10 level, not advanced calculus or differential equations. I've found the average university student struggles with simple maths in the cranium without some form of calculator, meaning quick decisions such as a sudden shortening of track means a delayed reaction to how much simple VS is required for the new profile. Its all about quick decisions on averages not, accurate down to a decimal point. As for navigation, that is a long forgotten art, once a pilot passes their PPL/CPL they will probably never pick up a wiz wheel or paper chart again, meaning like year 6 level times tables its a rusting artifact in the rear lobes. If your aircraft doesn't have a moving map GPS glass cockpit, you will most likely be carrying an iPad that does. I'm thankful all my training was pre-GPS even IFR having to do all calculations reference position lines and times for descent planing. I still do the numbers in my head to verify the GPS is doing it's thing and look out the window and identify features as I go to keep me occupied, occasionally ATS will throw some track shortening at me that requires some huge maths problems like 3 or 5 times tables.

[Lookleft]

I don't disagree with the general sentiment and I am glad that I did my PPL through to CPL pre Ipad and GPS. To be fair to the younger generation though I don't think they are even given the choice of learning techniques that doesn't involve technology. Even the basic trainers have glass cockpits. I always had a quiet chuckle to myself when the bloke in the LHS pulled out a calculator to work out ToD. Reference weight is 60t add 1nm for every tonne above and then add blah blah blah for wind. Then ATC would get you to slow to 250kts as soon as you commenced descent and there was no longer time to pull out the calculator. I dont see it done anymore as they just rely on the vdev scale.

[Lead Balloon]

Don't want to drift too far, but I often ponder how some people would survive if GNSS didn't work for a day or the internet didn't work for a day. Just a day.

When one considers some of the circumstances that lead people to ring 000, I suspect a lot of people would be in the foetal position.

A week? Anarchy.

/drift off

[43Inches]

Don't want to drift too far, but I often ponder how some people would survive if GNSS didn't work for a day or the internet didn't work for a day. Just a day.


I've pondered this on a serious level, as part of my 'what ifs' list. What if I'm in IMC and the GNSS system shuts down, what alternates with ground based aids will I have, what separation standards would be applied with ADSB being down. Where would I go if we are down to minimas and I'm facing circling in IMC off an NDB with no distance or situational awareness from GPS based maps and equipment at night. How many feel comfortable that they have a plan for that and are current enough to safely do it. It's a very unlikely scenario but it is possible.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Don't want to drift too far, but I often ponder how some people would survive if GNSS didn't work for a day or the internet didn't work for a day. Just a day.

When one considers some of the circumstances that lead people to ring 000, I suspect a lot of people would be in the foetal position.

A week? Anarchy.

/drift off

There'd be people wandering the streets of our cities without a clue where they are.

[john_tullamarine]

One of the big problems is that piloting and university have no correlation.

Your post rather sums up my thoughts.The kids to whom I referred were quintessential children of the magenta line folk ...

[Arm out the window]

It's not just following the magenta line that's the issue, it's the lack of having to even study a route in any detail prior to launching that bites people in the arse, combined with knowing that you don't have to actually navigate by time / distance / heading methods and get regular pinpoints to check your planning (or read the terrain and track crawl at lower levels).

I ferried a machine from Brisbane to Cairns a few years back and had the route planned on WACs all the way, with reference to ERC for airspace. The bloke who came with me had his iPad with OzRunways, happy to just follow the line, and while I was impressed with the capabilities of the electronic gear, simply being able to drag out the map and identify features enroute was so much better for awareness, I found.

The bottom line, I suppose, is that flying schools need to be teaching pilots to take advantage of electronics but have the common dog to be able to build and keep a good mental picture as well, and be able to quickly do an inflight replan taking into account distance, time, fuel, terrain, airspace and last light when the iPad stops working. Nobody should be able to get any licence bar perhaps an RPL unless they can do that.

[Lead Balloon]

Wouldn't it be 'character building' if every flight review had to be carried out on the basis of a demonstrated paper/pencil/prayer wheel manual flight planning process, followed by a 'GPS-off' nav in accordance with the plan, interrupted by a diversion and practise forced landing?

[john_tullamarine]

The bottom line, I suppose, is that flying schools need to be teaching pilots to take advantage of electronics but have

That's a pretty reasonable thought.

​​​​​​Wouldn't it be 'character building' if every flight review

Indeed, but probably a bit too much. However, the principle is good. Were a review to include an unannounced section where the examiner requires the candidate to do some steam driven work, and this was known to be a requirement, then it probably would follow that overall backup standards might improve significantly ?

[Lead Balloon]

But it creates a paradox. How can a candidate be prepared to do "some" randomly-chosen surprise steam driven work, without having prepared to do "all" of that work? I'm talking about the surprise occurring in the middle of a flight review.

I think the concept is important to safety, but I don't know how it can practicably be implemented now that we've crossed the paperless Rubicon.

[John Eacott]

Don't want to drift too far, but I often ponder how some people would survive if GNSS didn't work for a day or the internet didn't work for a day. Just a day.

When one considers some of the circumstances that lead people to ring 000, I suspect a lot of people would be in the foetal position.

A week? Anarchy.

/drift off

Absolutely: and I will surmise that the Ukraine conflict may well lead to a GPS issue before this year is out. Better dig out those 'old' charts and street maps if you want to get where you're going!

Omega was the bee's knees when I was flying off the north west of WA, with 2nm accuracy. only 43 years ago. After Decca DANAC in the North Sea it was the future (at the time) :cool:

[john_tullamarine]

Omega was the bee's knees when I was flying off the north west of WA, with 2nm accuracy.

AN had Omega on (at least) the 727LRs. Commonplace PER-SYD to have the system roll the aircraft out over BIK near as on track ... we were spoiled rotten back then.

[Squawk7700]

You mean the old “selective availability” being re-introduced? Surprised if it hasn’t happened already.

[megan]

In the '80's Esso had their own Omega chain in Bass Strait to support offshore helo operations, aircraft system provided a continious position fix to an onshore operator for SAR purposes. Later used GPS when the system became available.

[Squawk7700]

Preliminary report released.

Investigation: AO-2022-016 - Collision with terrain involving Airbus Helicopters EC130 T2, VH-XWD near Mount Disappointment, Victoria, on 31 March 2022 (atsb.gov.au) (https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2022/aair/ao-2022-016/)

OMG. the first heli flew into the cloud first and did a U-turn and the second one followed.
.


The passenger in the front right seat had flown in helicopters for about 30 years. The passenger recalled that, as they crossed Mount Disappointment, heavy cloud rolled in resulting in ‘a white-out with ground visibility no longer evident’. The pilot radioed XWD and said words to the effect of ‘U‑turn, U-turn, U-turn’. Then the pilot of WVV immediately completed a U‑turn. The pilot of XWD radioed back with words to the effect ‘aren’t we going to cut through?’ The passenger then saw XWD pass just below them

[runway16]

A major issue was to be crossing Mt Disappointment instead of going around it.

[Capt Fathom]

Why do people quote reports we can all read?

[Squawk7700]

Why do people quote reports we can all read?

Because many of us are time poor and may not have the patience to go through the 25 pages to find the one critical paragraph.

[Capt Fathom]

The Preliminary Report was 9 pages. Those interested will read it.

[Squawk7700]

It wouldn’t be much of a thread if there wasn’t any discussion!

“Aren’t we going to cut through” I find to be a very interesting comment if factual.

[Sunfish]

One minute....

From the report - Helos leave 30 seconds apart.

0756.30 WWV "U turn"
0757.00 WXD still heading North.
0757.25 Last WXD data point heading North West. crash site 250m.

I never thought about VFR cloud clearances expressed as time not distance.

There but for the grace of God.................

[compressor stall]

Sadly when entering cloud, a VFR machine is often measured in time until impact.

[Lead Balloon]

I appreciate those who post extracts from reports of these kinds of investigations. Usually the extracts are of the most significant factual findings or flaws in the reasoning.

[43Inches]

On the very first day there was a quote in the media from possibly the same passenger about being in and out of cloud and the following helicopter not emerging from cloud, so it's no revelation, just confirmation it was not just rumor. As for the future I can only see some significant legal action towards the operator given the passengers involved.

[Arm out the window]

As for the future I can only see some significant legal action towards the operator given the passengers involved.

Helicopter VMC criteria over land in Class G airspace are very lenient, perhaps too much so - as long as you are below 700' AGL, you just need to be clear of cloud, within sight of ground or water, inflight visibility 800 metres and 'operating at a speed to see and avoid obstacles' or similar wording - 800 m is a very far cry from the 5000 required for most other operations below 10,000 ft.

Although 500 ft AGL is the minimum for low flying over non-populous areas, 'stress of weather or other unavoidable reason' allows you to go lower if you have to. It is arguable as to when it becomes unavoidable, i.e. could you have turned around and avoided it rather than pressing on, but once down in a valley with scud around, that becomes somewhat academic.

The reason I say this it that a legal case against a VFR helicopter operation scud running at low level may be hard to win, given the above. Obviously the 'avoid obstacles' part didn't happen, but things can sneak up on you very quickly.

This is not a commentary one way or the other on what should or shouldn't have been done, just saying that you can get into some very compromising situations and still be legal, particulary around hills and particularly when there are wires around too. The onus is very much on pilots as to how far they will push. A decision to turn back will often be delayed due to commercial pressure or simple desire to get through, both understandable, and I think we can all appreciate that what may sound cut and dried when reading accident reports may well have been much more ambiguous to the people involved at the time.

How far do I press? How bad is the visibility really? Will it improve over the back of this ridge line or past these hills? Always have an out, as the saying goes, but sometimes your 'out' can disappear before you know it.

[Squawk7700]

Applicable only if the helicopter is operated:
› by day
› at a speed that
allows the pilot to see obstructions or other traffic in sufficient time to avoid collision

The radar and GPS tracks will clear this up very quickly as to the level of compliance. The data is all there for the regulators and legal eagles to act upon.

[Arm out the window]

I think not, what radar and GPS track has the ability to reproduce a picture of exactly what the visibility and cloud was like in any given point to that accuracy? This is micro stuff, not macro.

[Arm out the window]

This sad occurrence may also highlight the shameful state of flux our aviation rules are currently in. I don't mean to hijack the thread in any way, but if you consider that even though Part 135 rotorcraft passenger transport regs came into force on 02 December last year but are not 'actually' in force in terms of auditing, ops manual acceptance etc there will be a massive can of worms to work through.

[Squawk7700]

I think not, what radar and GPS track has the ability to reproduce a picture of exactly what the visibility and cloud was like in any given point to that accuracy? This is micro stuff, not macro.

I’m picking up what you’re putting down.

[SIUYA]

Part 135 rotorcraft passenger transport regs

I think you mean Part 133 Australian air transport operations — rotorcraft.

[Arm out the window]

Yes, sorry, I should've said Part 133. They blend into one another after a while!

[SIUYA]

AOTW.......all good. The MOS for Part 133 is also worth a look. :ok:

[Squawk7700]

Has anyone heard much about this and where the report is at?

I heard a rumour that there is video of the event.

[Squawk7700]

The final report has been released:

https://australianaviation.com.au/2024/01/white-out-heavy-cloud-caused-fatal-2022-ec130-crash-says-atsb/?utm_source=AustralianAviation&utm_campaign=12_01_2024&utm_medium=email&utm_content=1&utm_emailID=8a19deb6ae92784b55bd697a26a18b71a30816fa7947b1fc 0bdb8e5f458c47bf

[compressor stall]

Report link.
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2022/aair/ao-2022-016

[ACMS]

Sad…….