Pilot shortage in USA

[oriental flyer]

It has been reported that there is a massive pilot shortage in the USA with as many as 20,000 pilots short by the end of this year . Some airlines are so desperate that they are recruiting pilots from Australia already . But it’s at present a long drawn out process , this will change .
I think that if will only be a matter of time until pilots are granted fast track visas to the USA . Southwest, united , American are cancelling flights all over the place due to a crew shortage .
something will have to give .

[mngmt mole]

There is certainly a move within the US industry to lobby the Govt to approve fast track visas for qualified pilots. Understandably, ALPA is strongly against it, but ultimately the policy will be implemented. No timeline on it, but I wouldn't be surprised by the end of the year.

[ThrustAssymComp]

There is certainly a move within the US industry to lobby the Govt to approve fast track visas for qualified pilots. Understandably, ALPA is strongly against it, but ultimately the policy will be implemented. No timeline on it, but I wouldn't be surprised by the end of the year.
i want to but i only have icao cpl-ir

[Flying Clog]

Jesus oriental flyer, your news is way out of date. They typically recruited only Aussies externally in the US on the E3B visa I think it is, but now there are options from any nationality, but it's better to be ex Cathay and 747 rated, obviously.

:ok:

Bring it on.

Let's give crappy pathetic a healthy serving of eggs, all over their chops.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Any US job is a right hand seat with right hand seat pay

> 45-50 y forget it

[Ecam321]

Part 135 operators I.e business/corporate jet, allow direct hire into the left seat. Plenty of jobs on offer with attractive schedules and basing options.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Not really. You would need PIC hours on type on a business jet plus possible a type rating. When you later want to join the airlines back to square one.

[Ecam321]

Not quite right STW. Plenty of part135 operators offer type rating to the right candidate to go straight to the left seat of a biz jet. Also once you have 1000 hours PIC under part 135, you are now eligible for direct entry left seat in the Airlines, part121. If your looking for direct left seat on a wide body, then that’s not going to happen but regionals and LCC’s are offering direct entry Captain with huge signing bonus, you need 1000 hours PIC part 135 or SIC part 121. They are desperate for pilots if you can get the right to work in the US, you’d start work tomorrow.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Ok, I stand corrected if that is true.

Would you mind sharing which airline is offering direct entry captain positions and a bonus payment on top??

[Ecam321]

https://www.skywest.com/skywest-airline-jobs/career-guides/direct-entry-captain/
https://boards.greenhouse.io/breezeairways/jobs/4984329003
Breeze Airways is actually sponsoring foreign pilot visa applications and actively hiring Australians under the EB-3 visa scheme. But it’s right seat until you get 1000 hours under part121

[Sam Ting Wong]

Thanks, did not know that.

I still think it is probably financially unsustainable, but it is an option.

[boxjockey]

Not quite right STW. Plenty of part135 operators offer type rating to the right candidate to go straight to the left seat of a biz jet. Also once you have 1000 hours PIC under part 135, you are now eligible for direct entry left seat in the Airlines, part121. If your looking for direct left seat on a wide body, then that’s not going to happen but regionals and LCC’s are offering direct entry Captain with huge signing bonus, you need 1000 hours PIC part 135 or SIC part 121. They are desperate for pilots if you can get the right to work in the US, you’d start work tomorrow.

There are no DEC at anywhere other than the regionals. The pay there is decent because of the bonuses, but you will not be going to the left seat at any of the operators of larger aircraft.

[Koan]

Any US job is a right hand seat with right hand seat pay

> 45-50 y forget it
Even some senior Captains might consider their future at CX, versus even FO pay at US majors
especially now when would be holding left seat in a couple years anyway.

[Capt Under Pants]

Boxjockey,

Can confirm ECAM 321 is correct.

[Apollo19]

Some airlines are so desperate that they are recruiting pilots from Australia already .

That is true desperation!! Some of the worst pilots I have ever flown with. So bloody negative and miserable. That said, they are fun to drink with.

[Busbuoy]

So bloody negative and miserable.
At least we weren't the butt of that age-old gag "you know the crew of a Cathay aircraft are poms when the engines are shut down and the whining continues!"

[B2N2]

Not quite right STW. Plenty of part135 operators offer type rating to the right candidate to go straight to the left seat of a biz jet. Also once you have 1000 hours PIC under part 135, you are now eligible for direct entry left seat in the Airlines, part121. If your looking for direct left seat on a wide body, then that’s not going to happen but regionals and LCC’s are offering direct entry Captain with huge signing bonus, you need 1000 hours PIC part 135 or SIC part 121. They are desperate for pilots if you can get the right to work in the US, you’d start work tomorrow.

That is incorrect on both parts. No 135 Operator will put you left seat of a jet unless you have plenty of PIC time on type. Insurance requirements and industry safety certification.
FAA regulations require 1000 hrs SIC under Part 121 aka Airline operations.
135 PIC does NOT count towards the 1000 unless it was “scheduled” 135 Operations.

121.436
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-G/part-121/subpart-O

[bafanguy]

I'm certainly no more clairvoyant than anyone else but I wouldn't be lickin' my chops over career-destination positions for expats at US carriers just yet. Admittedly, the situation here is a bit of uncharted territory but it's a complex puzzle with too many moving pieces (and political influences) to say what'll happen too far in the future.

And Spirit, Frontier, etc. may not be representative of what are career-destination spots in my view...and no, I don't want to debate that. Spirit and Frontier appear to be having some serious attrition issues at the moment ( and the Big Six aren't) which seems to indicate I'm not the only one to hold my definition of "career-destination" airline.

I will go out on a limb far enough to say necessary seats will be filled and airplanes will be flown regardless. I'd just be very surprised to see the likes of DL, UA, AA, SW, UPS and FedEx hire other than US citizens or green card holders.

Just a random opinion.

[bafanguy]

@B2N2

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1351x453/650dbea7_9eef_4324_b1d8_9a8ca6a64f3b_39ce4907f6dce4bbd686839 f56ac97209affbd3c.jpeg
SIC part 121 PIC part135 & 91 all count towards the 1000 hour requirements

Not sure if it makes any difference to the point you were making, but the section of Part 91 to which you refer is from Subpart K, Fractional Ownership ops...and not some rich guy who has his own jet and operates for his private purposes. I'm too lazy to research the quoted Part 135 section.

[FlyTCI]

There are no DEC at anywhere other than the regionals. The pay there is decent because of the bonuses, but you will not be going to the left seat at any of the operators of larger aircraft.
Actually not true. I myself joined a 121 operator (non regional) last fall as a DEC in a large aircraft and expect to make $240-280k year one (no bonus). I have had my GC since many years though and have prior time in US operations.

[bafanguy]

I myself joined a 121 operator (non regional) last fall as a DEC in a large aircraft...I have had my GC since many years though and have prior time in US operations.

FlyTCI,

Interesting. Would you be able to reveal your employer as an example for others who might be able to do what you did ?

Having a green card puts you on equal footing with US citizens where airline employment is concerned. So, it may not be representative of what an true expat may face.

[Sam Ting Wong]

The salary at non-majors is just too low for a good life in the US. And if you manage to eventually join the majors you need to accept a right hand seat again plus time plus junior bases..

Might be a great opportunity for low seniority / young guys from CX, but I doubt attractive for any captain..

Anyone who disagrees should put numbers on the table.

[Ecam321]

The salary at non-majors is just too low for a good life in the US. And if you manage to eventually join the majors you need to accept a right hand seat again plus time plus junior bases..

Might be a great opportunity for low seniority / young guys from CX, but I doubt attractive for any captain..

Anyone who disagrees should put numbers on the table.

That all depends on your definition of a good life and what you feel is a good QOL for your self and family. Living in the US is not for everyone but increasingly neither is Hong Kong. I agree, for CX captains, right seat at a US airline might feel like a step down for them but for others it might be an improvement. All personal preferences, it’s just interesting to see what possibilities are now becoming available for foreign pilots in the US.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Totally agree

[FlyTCI]

FlyTCI,

Interesting. Would you be able to reveal your employer as an example for others who might be able to do what you did ?

Having a green card puts you on equal footing with US citizens where airline employment is concerned. So, it may not be representative of what an true expat may face.
I would potentially reveal myself to potential colleagues (although it’s unlikely any of them are here) if I did, so I prefer not to. Lets say tenacity, networking and a bit of luck got me into a spot which could turn out to be very good long term.

My initial path was getting married to a US citizen some 15 years ago, who I divorced seven years later. I worked for a US 135 operator before going back to international flying for a non US company which ended just before Covid and then I was out of a job for two years before getting on with my current employer. 1000+ hours of 135 jet PIC meant that I met the 121 PIC requirement and I already had 1500 hours in the type I was recently hired on (which did not count towards the 1000 hrs as it was not operated under N reg).

Foreigners will need to spend a minimum of 1000 hours as 121 SIC (or 1000 hrs 135 jet PIC) for them to be able to upgrade, so none of them will slide directly into a left seat. However, with some of the Captain bids at the legacies going as low as 2.5 months on property one technically could be in the left seat as soon as the 1000 hr requirement is met. That would most likely be on reserve in NYC though, not ideal for most. But, those who are willing to work hard can make 200-250k or even more even in the right seat of the bigger LCCs and majors after a couple of years. Yes, the US has become a very expensive place to live over the last two years, but if you can’t make it on mid 200s then you need to talk to a financial planner.

[bafanguy]

I would potentially reveal myself to potential colleagues (although it’s unlikely any of them are here) if I did, so I prefer not to.


Foreigners will need to spend a minimum of 1000 hours as 121 SIC (or 1000 hrs 135 jet PIC) for them to be able to upgrade, so none of them will slide directly into a left seat. However, with some of the Captain bids at the legacies going as low as 2.5 months on property one technically could be in the left seat as soon as the 1000 hr requirement is met.

FlyTCI,

Understand.

The rapid upgrades at a couple of legacy carriers that became news recently are likely flukes. These folks will be lucky to hang onto those spots if/when the first economic hiccup comes along. They only got them because the people senior to them didn't want them, likely for the reason you mentioned (perpetual reserve in NYC is a fate right up there with burning in Purgatory).

Glad things have worked out so well for you.

[LLLQNH]

'Oh what a tangled web we weave/when first we practice to deceive.' Metere quod seminas. We all know what happened in Hong Kong good luck with your job search in North America...

[Oasis]

'Oh what a tangled web we weave/when first we practice to deceive.' Metere quod seminas. We all know what happened in Hong Kong good luck with your job search in North America...

It's amazing how intelligent you sound, when you throw in a little Latin for good measure.

[FlyTCI]

FlyTCI,

Understand.

The rapid upgrades at a couple of legacy carriers that became news recently are likely flukes. These folks will be lucky to hang onto those spots if/when the first economic hiccup comes along. They only got them because the people senior to them didn't want them, likely for the reason you mentioned (perpetual reserve in NYC is a fate right up there with burning in Purgatory).

Glad things have worked out so well for you.
Thanks bafan.

As someone who is following the international job market much more closely than the average American pilot I strongly caution my friends and colleagues about foreign pilots coming into the US job market and potentially bringing down the currently good conditions US pilots are experiencing. The same conditions which have taken them so many years to finally bring back to respectable levels. Once greedy managements get a whiff of it, and some already have, you’d better watch out as it can be used against the current pilot group as a worst case. Obviously it won’t happen at a union shop, but at a place like mine with no union, my job can quickly go from great to sucky. I would like to think the management of my company won’t go that route to lower our compensation, but there is already work happening on getting foreign pilots onboard which does me a bit nervous. I know of other US pilots with vast experience of OCONUS who share my fear and who is also trying to educate his US peers who are less in tune with the topic.

It’s nothing personal against non US pilots, I fully understand the allure of the current US pilot job market and I am very grateful that I have access to it, but it’s a dog eat dog world out there and one can never be too casual over something potentially affecting your livelihood in a negative way.

[dera]

@B2N2

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1351x453/650dbea7_9eef_4324_b1d8_9a8ca6a64f3b_39ce4907f6dce4bbd686839 f56ac97209affbd3c.jpeg
SIC part 121 PIC part135 & 91 all count towards the 1000 hour requirements

Not all 135 PIC counts. Has to be 135.243(a)(1) PIC so turbojet, or with more than 10 seats, or multi-engine in a commuter operation (read: Cape Air). In effect, it has to be an operation that requires a full ATP to count towards 121 upgrade.

[Flex88]

The salary at non-majors is just too low for a good life in the US. And if you manage to eventually join the majors you need to accept a right hand seat again plus time plus junior bases..

Might be a great opportunity for low seniority / young guys from CX, but I doubt attractive for any captain..

Anyone who disagrees should put numbers on the table.

You sir are the perfect CX cuckold.... Appropriately dense enough to believe the BS you spew :rolleyes:

[Captain Dart]

This may be of interest. Just in from AVweb:

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/pilot-exodus-blamed-for-alaska-cancellations/

[Flying Clog]

Hear Hear.

(what Flex88 said)

[PPRuNeUser0163]

The salary at non-majors is just too low for a good life in the US. And if you manage to eventually join the majors you need to accept a right hand seat again plus time plus junior bases..

Might be a great opportunity for low seniority / young guys from CX, but I doubt attractive for any captain..

Anyone who disagrees should put numbers on the table.


Just so you know- factually incorrect as quite a number of captains from CX have headed and are off to the US.. something to do with pennys bay quadrupling in size in a matter of months, gps tracker bracelets and a 12 hour day for a Taipei turn somehow not adding to a particularly high quality of life and that’s without mentioning having kids in HK..

[Veruka Salt]

The salary at non-majors is just too low for a good life in the US. And if you manage to eventually join the majors you need to accept a right hand seat again plus time plus junior bases..

Might be a great opportunity for low seniority / young guys from CX, but I doubt attractive for any captain..

Anyone who disagrees should put numbers on the table.

Garbage Sam. As a former CX Captain now working for a non-major US outfit, I suggest you widen your research.

I currently earn just shy of my wonderful POS 18 CN salary, but my family’s QOL has increased ten-fold.

And I had to go back to the RHS.

I’m not in a junior base.

[Sam Ting Wong]

So do I understand you correctly: you are in the RHS of a non-major and make the same as a CX cpt ( in the region of 20 after tax?) I am genuinely curious, no offense. And what is your career plan? Will you seek another RHS at a major or stick to your current airline?

[Asianexpress]

So do I understand you correctly: you are in the RHS of a non-major and make the same as a CX cpt ( in the region of 20 after tax?) I am genuinely curious, no offense. And what is your career plan? Will you seek another RHS at a major or stick to your current airline?

I suggest you re-read POS 18, a CX Capt does not earn 20k USD after tax.

[Turkpilot]

I would potentially reveal myself to potential colleagues (although it’s unlikely any of them are here) if I did, so I prefer not to. Lets say tenacity, networking and a bit of luck got me into a spot which could turn out to be very good long term.

My initial path was getting married to a US citizen some 15 years ago, who I divorced seven years later. I worked for a US 135 operator before going back to international flying for a non US company which ended just before Covid and then I was out of a job for two years before getting on with my current employer. 1000+ hours of 135 jet PIC meant that I met the 121 PIC requirement and I already had 1500 hours in the type I was recently hired on (which did not count towards the 1000 hrs as it was not operated under N reg).

Foreigners will need to spend a minimum of 1000 hours as 121 SIC (or 1000 hrs 135 jet PIC) for them to be able to upgrade, so none of them will slide directly into a left seat. However, with some of the Captain bids at the legacies going as low as 2.5 months on property one technically could be in the left seat as soon as the 1000 hr requirement is met. That would most likely be on reserve in NYC though, not ideal for most. But, those who are willing to work hard can make 200-250k or even more even in the right seat of the bigger LCCs and majors after a couple of years. Yes, the US has become a very expensive place to live over the last two years, but if you can’t make it on mid 200s then you need to talk to a financial planner.

Unless you got a DEC at Atlas, or Omni I couldn’t see you making that much and that would even be a stretch. Eastern you def wouldn’t , nor Global X or Breeze.

[FlyTCI]

Unless you got a DEC at Atlas, or Omni I couldn’t see you making that much and that would even be a stretch. Eastern you def wouldn’t , nor Global X or Breeze.
Keep guessing.

On the 7th I can show you my pay check of $25k for March if you like. Yes, I flew a lot of hours in March (16 over min guarantee) since we are short on crew just like all the other US 121 carriers, but because of dropped and pay protected trips and working a couple of extra days that is my total paycheck with 13 days off. Won’t happen every month but I will quite easily make 20k+/month going forward. My February pay check was $22.7k.

Not trying to brag here, just adding truth and reality to those playing down what you can make at US carriers in 2022. And I am making far less than some of the boys and girls are making at the big players, but I am personally very happy with what I have and I make sure to appreciate it.

[Ecam321]

Keep guessing.

On the 7th I can show you my pay check of $25k for March if you like. Yes, I flew a lot of hours in March (16 over min guarantee) since we are short on crew just like all the other US 121 carriers, but because of dropped and pay protected trips and working a couple of extra days that is my total paycheck with 13 days off. Won’t happen every month but I will quite easily make 20k+/month going forward. My February pay check was $22.7k.

Not trying to brag here, just adding truth and reality to those playing down what you can make at US carriers in 2022. And I am making far less than some of the boys and girls are making at the big players, but I am personally very happy with what I have and I make sure to appreciate it.
Thanks for your input and perspective.

[Veruka Salt]

So do I understand you correctly: you are in the RHS of a non-major and make the same as a CX cpt ( in the region of 20 after tax?) I am genuinely curious, no offense. And what is your career plan? Will you seek another RHS at a major or stick to your current airline?

I don’t earn 20K/mth after tax (PICs do), but nor do I know any CX CN who does now (consistently). I didn’t - even with transition expat housing - and was on one of the busy fleets. No LEP does. And after the transition period ends in December, no CX CN will.

I plan to stay right where I am. Home based. No reserve (except downroute, on the rare occasion). No commuting. Best 401(K) in the industry. Zero cost healthcare (rare).

The company has 3 x the fleet size that CX/KA had at its peak. 64 new deliveries this year, 73 next year. There are excellent opportunities in the US, even outside of the majors.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Glad it worked out for you👍

[Turkpilot]

Keep guessing.

On the 7th I can show you my pay check of $25k for March if you like. Yes, I flew a lot of hours in March (16 over min guarantee) since we are short on crew just like all the other US 121 carriers, but because of dropped and pay protected trips and working a couple of extra days that is my total paycheck with 13 days off. Won’t happen every month but I will quite easily make 20k+/month going forward. My February pay check was $22.7k.

Not trying to brag here, just adding truth and reality to those playing down what you can make at US carriers in 2022. And I am making far less than some of the boys and girls are making at the big players, but I am personally very happy with what I have and I make sure to appreciate it.

Not saying your a liar. You wouldn’t have gone DEC i to a legacy, and unless it’s an airline I don’t know about then I do find it a bit hard to believe. I’ve made that money too albeit in china for many years. Unfortunately coming back to the states and having to pay taxes truly sucked.

When you say large aircraft how large are we talking about?

[FlyTCI]

Not saying your a liar. You wouldn’t have gone DEC i to a legacy, and unless it’s an airline I don’t know about then I do find it a bit hard to believe. I’ve made that money too albeit in china for many years. Unfortunately coming back to the states and having to pay taxes truly sucked.

When you say large aircraft how large are we talking about?
There are many US 121 carriers which are not majors/legacies, which you probably already know. Apparently you do not know about my employer. Many don’t so don’t feel bad.

Not regional size nor wide body, should narrow it down enough I think. :)

For sure agree on the tax part as a previous beneficiary of the FEIE, paying full taxes definitively blows.

[Turkpilot]

There are many US 121 carriers which are not majors/legacies, which you probably already know. Apparently you do not know about my employer. Many don’t so don’t feel bad.

Not regional size nor wide body, should narrow it down enough I think. :)

For sure agree on the tax part as a previous beneficiary of the FEIE, paying full taxes definitively blows.

Avelo. Breeze maybe….

[Chronic Snoozer]

I've always thought pilots in the USA were taller than average.

[boxjockey]

I left CX 4 years ago to come back home. I love my job, and I definitely earn as much as I did while there, even including the housing. I flew 45 hours last year. My heart breaks for what has happened to CX and my ex-colleagues. A very fine group of aviators who do not deserve what has been dealt to them. STW, please stop trying embellish what has become of CX and Hong Kong. Everyone sees it for what it is.

box

[Sam Ting Wong]

I was asking for numbers, I did not embellish anything. When and where?

I personally (!) feel too old, financially too comfortable, to used to the left seat for an American adventure. If you read my post, I was stressing the fact it might be ok for younger guys. I just speak out what hundreds others think, or they obviously would not be still here, wouldn't they flexi? That's it.

Clog, you can spill as much poison on HK and CX as you like, I know where you work now and would not like to trade places. Half the money for double the work compared to what I have. Fact. Additionally, stating the obvious here for you, life in HK depends not only on CX but also on kids, wife's job, real estate etc Simplifying is not the answer, we are all different, which is why I am interested in NUMBERS so I can make up MY mind based on MY situation. But if it is ok for YOU to work for the Huns, enjoy, I mean it. Just let's not forget you did not have the option to stay anyway, so I sense a tiny trace of rationalisation here. But really. I hope you eventually find closure. Remember, hate is not the opposite of love, indifference is.

[Flying Clog]

STW, think you might be barking up the wrong tree..

I'm doing less flying than at CX, more days off, for the same money as POS18, (minus the housing, which is disappearing anyway), at half the cost of living and double the standard of living.

No brainer really. Happiest I've been in 20 years since joining toxic CX as a mercenary.

Simples.

[Sam Ting Wong]

I wish you well ( and that maybe at one point in the future you understand the repercussions of individual circumstances) 👍

[mngmt mole]

STW. I've always appreciated your posts. I would gently say that you are probably at the point I was two years ago...long time in CX and considering the next stage of life. I left just prior to covid (better lucky than smart !). I took a two year payout and don't regret a day that I stayed, or the day that I left. The US is booming aviation wise...huge pay increases and a genuine panic with the real shortage. CX has destroyed their legacy. Tragic.

[umop apisdn]

Keep guessing.

On the 7th I can show you my pay check of $25k for March if you like. Yes, I flew a lot of hours in March (16 over min guarantee) since we are short on crew just like all the other US 121 carriers, but because of dropped and pay protected trips and working a couple of extra days that is my total paycheck with 13 days off. Won’t happen every month but I will quite easily make 20k+/month going forward. My February pay check was $22.7k.

Not trying to brag here, just adding truth and reality to those playing down what you can make at US carriers in 2022. And I am making far less than some of the boys and girls are making at the big players, but I am personally very happy with what I have and I make sure to appreciate it.

I like guessing games.

Assuming you're talking about credit hours, not block, then you're on a pretty great captain rate to net 25k out of 86 - 90 credit hours. Can't be Avelo or Breeze. I can't think of any ACMI that you can do DEC at. Honestly I just thought it was those 2 and regionals that did street captain.

Got me stumped.

Sounds like you have done a good job being back on your feet after covid. Nice work :)

[MachDaddy]

I just met one ex-CX Captain here at one of the US big 3. Starting over on the right seat at our most junior fleet & base after a 15 year career at CX. Felt sorry for him having to start all over again. Great guy though. He’ll be back in the left seat in a short time if he’s not picky about base/fleet.

[HKG_Refugee]

I've been reading this with interest for some time and wasn't going to join to reply. I had over a decade in HK and while there never could see another way.
Now after being home for a couple of years, with a 6 figure job and 25% living cost I have never been happier. There is no shortage of jobs out there. I should have sewered Swire years ago.

[CaliforniaPilot]

Any US job is a right hand seat with right hand seat pay

> 45-50 y forget it

Nope.......

[HKG_Refugee]

Many have signing bonuses 10-20K..

I didn't take a Hawker 4000 job, but it paid 120K on day one. 10 days on/ 10 off.

The sun is shinning everywhere but HK.

[Sam Ting Wong]

I don't get it. 120 k before tax is a joke, isn't it? The signing bonus pays for the moving van, then what?

Look, good on anyone who finds a better future. But there is only one possible answer why guys like California refuse to be specific..

Again, I totaly understand one might choose lifestyle over money ( assuming there is indeed good lifestyle at the likes of Atlas or some Low Cost Airline). But please don't pretend there is both. And to clarify, I am talking only on behalf of older guys who can't crawl through the ranks for another 5-10 years. Again.

[quadspeed]

Thankfully, a good lifestyle is very much subjective.

If a good lifestyle involves a cabin by the lake, blue skies, clean water,and libertarian values then the remuneration required to give all that up would be beyond anything current being offered in HK.

If, on the other hand, a good lifestyle is an urban life where shopping, eating and drinking are your core leisure activities, then the package i more than enough. Bu not enough to purchase any of the above items.

[hyg]

I don't get it. 120 k before tax is a joke, isn't it? The signing bonus pays for the moving van, then what?

Look, good on anyone who finds a better future. But there is only one possible answer why guys like California refuse to be specific..

Again, I totaly understand one might choose lifestyle over money ( assuming there is indeed good lifestyle at the likes of Atlas or some Low Cost Airline). But please don't pretend there is both. And to clarify, I am talking only on behalf of older guys who can't crawl through the ranks for another 5-10 years. Again.

Well, some people don't need to retire to a 10000 sq ft mansion, a vineyard with 2 sports cars and a yacht... It is a personal choice and you can do whatever fills your boots, yet you also don't really have the right to criticise what others enjoy, for eg freedom...

[Ecam321]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1085x859/81b90a8b_e43a_427b_94d2_2ebe6e83f29d_9b42a70050c78bfcd542a28 e2a662d3746742c60.jpeg
This is the pay scale for a part 135 operator, offering direct entry command. The schedule is 15 on 13 off, after a couple of years not bad at all especially on the bigger biz jets.

[HKG_Refugee]

Ha.. You're still caught in the HK mindset. Out of the odd 200K I received from CX monthly, Housing and the tax on it ate up half. Food another 12K a week/ power/ rates/ car ect.. there was very little left.

Here I OWN my own home, and save 4-5,000 USD a month. Zero stress about passing checks, no pollution, no China bulls*t..

It's not how much you make, it is how much you keep.

[Rie]

This is the pay scale for a part 135 operator, offering direct entry command. The schedule is 15 on 13 off, after a couple of years not bad at all especially on the bigger biz jets.
Which operator is it ecam? I know there are a few similar paying similar amounts direct entry right now.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Refugee, I see no contradiction here, I agree savings are a vital part. However, I personally can save way more in HK ( I own my place, I don't have a car etc.), nothing to do with a distorted mindset. I could not meet my financial obligations with 100ish before tax and living in the (not exactly cheap) US. For sure I could not save anything. In the end it is a personal decision depending on personal circumstances.

Ecam, thanks. But where would you start in that table. Bottom right I assume? And are you certain as a captain ( no TR, no experience in corporate) ? And who pays for training? Quite often the devil is in the details..

[Ecam321]

Refugee, I see no contradiction here, I agree savings are a vital part. However, I personally can save way more in HK ( I own my place, I don't have a car etc.), nothing to do with a distorted mindset. I could not meet my financial obligations with 100ish before tax and living in the (not exactly cheap) US. For sure I could not save anything. In the end it is a personal decision depending on personal circumstances.

Ecam, thanks. But where would you start in that table. Bottom right I assume? And are you certain as a captain ( no TR, no experience in corporate) ? And who pays for training? Quite often the devil is in the details..

Your starting position is dependent on your experience and type rating is provided by the operator with them paying for training but you must sign a bond for 12 months. There are countless companies offering this right now, with a schedule option of 8/6 or 15/13, live where ever you want in the US and they commute you to and from the airplane on the first and last day of rotation. I’m not trying to convince you STW, just want to make it clear what’s out there for guys and gals that are interested.

[HKG_Refugee]

My offer was with Talon Air.

It's a very common region for pay.

[Bokpiel]

Ha.. You're still caught in the HK mindset. Out of the odd 200K I received from CX monthly, Housing and the tax on it ate up half. Food another 12K a week/ power/ rates/ car ect.. there was very little left.

Here I OWN my own home, and save 4-5,000 USD a month. Zero stress about passing checks, no pollution, no China bulls*t..

It's not how much you make, it is how much you keep.

Very little left after 200k a month? Must have had too many divorces and kids then I assume.

[HKG_Refugee]

Very little left after 200k a month? Must have had too many divorces and kids then I assume.


Lovely sentiment as always.. I won't miss most of you.

No, I left with the wife I brought in 04'. Tax on 200 was like 30ish, Mortgage was 80, Rates (yes some years recently Gov't paid some), monthly building fees 3K, Car/petrol, Tax on Education allowance for kids. Yes, I did have a very nice life - but it was no better than my current life.

If you want to live in Tung Chung in a Shoebox that is your choice. My house money there bought my home here.

I am not here to debate you - I've left, I have a great job and I will NEVER step foot in CLK or HK again.

Others have done the same, but you insist it's not likely.

Enjoy your cup noodles and house arrest, I am off on a four day trip to Barbados in the morning.

[Captn Rex Havack]

.......................and on that point, he rests his case!!!

[4 driver]

and every month you are saving 4-5 K usd...... must have landed a great job in a low cost city. congratulations.

[Bokpiel]

Lovely sentiment as always.. I won't miss most of you.

No, I left with the wife I brought in 04'. Tax on 200 was like 30ish, Mortgage was 80, Rates (yes some years recently Gov't paid some), monthly building fees 3K, Car/petrol, Tax on Education allowance for kids. Yes, I did have a very nice life - but it was no better than my current life.

If you want to live in Tung Chung in a Shoebox that is your choice. My house money there bought my home here.

I am not here to debate you - I've left, I have a great job and I will NEVER step foot in CLK or HK again.

Others have done the same, but you insist it's not likely.

Enjoy your cup noodles and house arrest, I am off on a four day trip to Barbados in the morning.

Well that escalated quickly... Not sure where I insisted others can't do the same?

Simply called out your BS biased insinuation of 200k not being enough. Feeling on debating is mutual.
​
Enjoy Barbados. Won't miss you either. Poes.

[Cool banana]

ALPA is now stating there more than enough plots to meet U.S Airline Demand stating there are currently about 1.5 certificated pilots relatives to demand, according to Federal Aviation Administration and Bureau of Labor Statistics data.

https://www.alpa.org/advocacy/pilot-supplyOver the past decade, the United States has produced more than enough certificated pilots to meet airline hiring demands and compensate for retirements, even as new and more rigorous pilot training standards were enacted to enhance safety. In fact, there are currently about 1.5 certificated pilots relative to demand (https://www.alpa.org/-/media/ALPA/Files/pdfs/advocacy/alpa-pilot-supply-by-numbers.pdf?la=en), according to Federal Aviation Administration and Bureau of Labor Statistics data. So, although we don’t have a pilot shortage, we do have a shortage of airline executives willing to stand by their business decisions to cut air service and be upfront about their intentions to skirt safety rules and hire inexperienced workers for less pay.https://www.alpa.org/-/media/ALPA/Images/advocacy/pilot-supply-demand.png?la=en
Financial Lifelines, Jobs SavedTwo years ago, U.S. airlines were on the brink of economic disaster. Bookings dropped more than 90 percent, and executives faced bankruptcies and financial ruin. The federal government and American taxpayers—intervened and helped stop the bleeding. Airlines received not one, not two, but three financial lifelines totaling $63 billion (https://www.alpa.org/advocacy/pilot-supply/pandemic-support-airlines). With leadership from the U.S. labor movement, Congress passed the Payroll Support Program, which kept thousands of pilots and other aviation workers on the job and off unemployment. This helped keep the U.S. economy going, global supply chains open, and critical medical personnel and equipment moving to fight COVID-19. It also positioned the aviation industry to be ready for recovery.

Unfortunately, some airlines planned for the recovery better than others. While some anticipated what would be needed—and when—to meet consumer demand, some don’t have the capacity to train the large number of available pilots or rely too heavily on outsourcing options that cannot meet demand. Others bet against a strong U.S. recovery, and now those airlines’ leaders are trying to blame frontline aviation employees for their bad business decisions by saying they can’t find enough workers.

https://www.alpa.org/-/media/ALPA/Images/advocacy/alpa-pilot-supply-training.png?la=en
Well-Trained Pilots Save LivesNow, airlines are cutting service to dozens of cities across the country and laying the groundwork to weaken the most effective aviation safety law of the past decade—the Airline Safety and Federal Aviation Administration Extension Act of 2010, sometimes referred to as the “1,500-hour rule.”
ALPA was a strong advocate for the law, which required an overhaul in the training and minimum experience requirements for airline pilots. According to National Transportation Safety Board data, since the law’s enactment, Part 121 passenger airline fatalities have decreased by 99.8 percent.

Unfortunately, some airlines are using the fictious claim that there is a lack of available pilots to try to weaken training and safety standards and distract from their profit-first business decisions to cut service and hire inexperienced aviators for less pay instead of focusing on changes to fundamental issues associated with these profit-driven business models. The companies claim, among other things, that the first officer qualification and pilot training requirements mandated by Congress discourage potential airline pilots and are the cause for service cuts to rural communities.

Looking at the numbers, data shows that airlines make operational decisions based on the profitability of each route. Past practice proves that if you pay airline pilots commensurate with their training and experience, not only will you get qualified candidates but also a robust pipeline of future aviators.

Regulations that enhance safety and that have led to the U.S. aviation system’s exemplary safety record should never be used as the scapegoat for profit and should be untouchable by special interests. ALPA will defend against any action that would erode airline safety standards.
ALPA’s Recommendations to Maintain a Robust Pilot Pipeline (https://www.alpa.org/-/media/ALPA/Files/pdfs/advocacy/alpa-pilot-supply-break-down-barriers.pdf?la=en)

Invest in putting more pilots in the U.S. pipeline with several incentives, including helping students pay for expensive flight training costs, subsidizing loans for flight training in conjunction with two-year and four-year aviation colleges and universities; and exempting students from paying interest on loans while in school.
Align federal funding to bring pilot academic education and training to the level of other highly skilled professions.
Provide substantial grants to expand aviation and flight degree programs.
Increasing the number of students who graduate from a certified two- or four-year aviation program who obtain the license needed to become an airline pilot.
Increase awareness of aviation job opportunities with today’s emerging workforce, including the support and mentorship they need to enter the profession with confidence.
Recruit a more diverse workforce, providing role models to ensure minorities and women can see themselves as the airline pilot workforce of the future.
Increase Title IV funding for hiring professional pilot graduates from colleges and universities that serve underrepresented communities, such as the historically black colleges and universities.
Provide substantial grants to minority-serving educational institutions to start aviation programs that serve underrepresented communities and introduce them to aviation experiences.
Maintain the ICAO and EASA age standard for retirement (https://www.alpa.org/-/media/ALPA/Files/pdfs/advocacy/alpa-pilot-supply-retirement-age.pdf?la=en)

TELL CONGRESS: OPPOSE ATTEMPTS TO RAISE THE MANDATORY RETIREMENT AGE FOR U.S. PILOTSTAKE ACTION NOW (https://alpa.quorum.us/campaign/40701/)
U.S. Mainline CEOs on Pilot SupplyDelta Air Lines“We are not having any problem at all at Delta hiring and getting great pools of candidates.”

—Ed Bastian, Delta Chief Executive Officer, January 13, 2022 (Source: Seeking Alpha (https://seekingalpha.com/article/4479584-delta-air-lines-inc-s-dal-ceo-ed-bastian-on-q4-2021-results-earnings-call-transcript))

“Really there are no shortage of pilots wanting to come to us or really to our regional partners. It's a matter of getting them through the training and getting into the right seat with the right number of hours.”

—Ed Bastian, Delta Chief Executive Officer, January 13, 2022 (Source: Seeking Alpha (https://seekingalpha.com/article/4479584-delta-air-lines-inc-s-dal-ceo-ed-bastian-on-q4-2021-results-earnings-call-transcript))


American Airlines“We’re going to have plenty of pilots. The biggest issue that we’re dealing with is the throughput of pilots and getting them through training.”

—Robert Isom, American President and Incoming Chief Executive Officer, January 20, 2022 (Source: Seeking Alpha (https://seekingalpha.com/article/4480643-american-airlines-group-inc-s-aal-ceo-doug-parker-on-q4-2021-results-earnings-call-transcript))


Southwest Airlines“I think we’ll have plenty of access to pilots and flight attendants. So I feel good that our staffing plan is going to come to fruition. And then the question just is, as we bring the people on and we mitigate the premium pay, we mitigate some of the regular operations, we run a more stable operation, can we—will we see different behaviors? And if we do, that gives us upside.”

—Gary Kelly, Southwest Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, January 20, 2022 (Source: Seeking Alpha (https://seekingalpha.com/article/4480630-united-airlines-holdings-inc-ual-ceo-scott-kirby-on-q4-2021-results-earnings-call-transcript))


Spirit Airlines“The lines were all trending up. More people were applying to get pilot licenses, ATP licenses and instructor licenses. The COVID pandemic impacted that, mostly because none of us were hiring pilots in 2020. We anticipate you could interpret that data to suggest it will probably be closer to what you’ve experienced in the past, Supply and demand will work itself out over that period of time.”
—Ted Christie, Spirit Airlines Chief Executive Officer, Q1 2022 Earnings Call (Source: Travel Pulse (https://www.travelpulse.com/news/airlines/is-there-really-a-pilot-shortage-depends-on-who-you-ask.html))
Frontier Airlines“Well, I don't know if it's overblown for some airlines. I mean I think there's some airlines with some real challenges. But in our particular case in the near term, we have an excess of the pilots for example. And so, while we've seen some attrition greater than years past, Frontier is really in a fortunate position. We actually have a lot of tailwinds in our pilot workforce and our recruiting success versus some of the low-cost and regional airlines.”
—Barry Biffle, Frontier Airlines Chief Executive Officer, Q1 2022 Earnings Call (Source: Seeking Alpha (https://seekingalpha.com/article/4505395-frontier-group-holdings-inc-ulcc-ceo-barry-biffle-on-q1-2022-results-earnings-call-transcript))

[VforVENDETTA]

Thise statements at the end from the airline CEOs. Utter gigantic lies. Delta for instance, "not having any issues at kur regionals"? They're paying obscene amounts of sign-on and retention bonuses well into 6 figures at their wholly owned reginals having already doubled their starting pay not only hiring direct entry captains but those very very low hours pilots they are hiring also. At delta's wholly owned regional they pay the cost of putting them thru very expensive cadet style sim training programs thru CAE and then put them in class as soon as they hit 1500 hours. To say they're green behind the ears is a ridiculous understatement. Have you ever heard of inbound and outbound spoilers? I have with my own ears.

American had their director of HR give an auditorium talk 6 months ago in Dallas headquarters. He talked about how they need to hire 2000 pilots a year for the next few years. How the training department has never done more than close to 1000/yr in the past and they've been tasked with analyzing what they can accomplish to ramp up and how soon and at what cost and how they don't know how this can possibly be accomplished. Then He was asked how many pilot applications they have on file. He answered 12,000+. And he immediately followed up by saying " but out of those, only 2000-3000 meet our minimum hiring standards". (A friend who was in the audience showed me a phone recording of this."). That's 2000-3000 pilots they can call for an interview. Even if they hire every single interviewee, do the math how quickly they'll run out. Lowering standards, paying major sign-on bonuses to poach from other majors, re-caliberting fleets (bigger airplanes/less frequencies) are among what they can do to make ends meet with less than needed pilots.

American just admitted they have 100 regional jets grounded due to no pilots. And the delta guys says "we have no problem... ". They pay the same obscene amounts of bonuses and doubled salaries to attract. I'm only saying obscene because of comparison to what was paid before.

Why do you think united just signed a new contract with the highest pilot pay in the industry? Because they see no problem attracting pilots for their existing demand?

Prediction is that unless another major event such as 9/11 ,covid , economical crash etc intervenes, most US regionals will have to shut down due to no pilots. Hiring foreign pilots has proven to be a pipe dream also. It takes very very long to process an application and there's no guarantee of approval anyway.

Sh!tty airlines such as sh!tblue, frontier, spirit, alaska will be next.

ALL US airlines are sh!tting their pants about the pilot shortage, as they were just before covid hit. Covid gave them breathing space to do something. They offered early retirements and lost a further 10,000 pilots. Short sighted incompetent Idiots. Hearing CEOs lie is exactly what's to be expected, about this or any other issue.

They can ingenously say the ongoing high amounts of cancellatuons at the big majors is due to their lack of training capacity, which is true for now. United has pretty much stopped hiring to let their training department catch up. But it can only be lied about for so long. What is happening at the lower scales of the industry (100 aircraft grounded due to no pilots at just one major's regional) will creep up to the higher scales. Sooner than later. It's already happening sporadically and they've been covering it up. As it gets bigger they won't be able to. You can already see it for yourself. There are an unusually high number of aircraft parked idle outside major airlines maintenance hangers not being worked on... and not flying either. I see this with my own eyes. It's not normal. Where there used to be 2-3 airplanes in for mx, there's now 6 with only 3 being worked on. And the same airlines are pulling out of some routes due to "lack of capacity".

There will never be a shortage of pilots, for the airlines which pay the best/most compensation package. You get what you pay for.

This shortage of pilots crippling the US airlines is the direct result of what theyve done for the last 20+ years paying peanuts low enough to qualify their first officers for food stamps, to offer the pax low low priced tickets. Every year less people entered this profession because of that. Now it's going to cost them not only much more than they think they saved back then, but also it will cost the existence of several of them, hopefully. It's well deserved.

I'm also impatiently waiting for cathay's demise due to not being able to crew it's aircraft due to shortage of pilots and the loss of its safety record & reputation caused by replacing experienced pilots with inexperienced cheaper pilots.

[iot]

In the News -Some pilots flying for American Airlines' subsidiary regional airlines will soon make nearly twice their current salary in a groundbreaking new pay scheme.

Pilots at American Airlines regional carriers Envoy Air and Piedmont Airlines are getting a big pay raise.
Pilots at both airlines will make an average of 57% more than Delta Air Lines' wholly-owned regional Endeavour Air.
Line check airmen at both airlines will make $427.50 per hour under the new contract.

[Rie]

The thing people forget is that if you were to go to a regional without FAA time you'd be looking at 1.5-2 years min before command, add another year at least for LTC upgrade and other year for Checking. That offer expires 2024, barely enough time to become a Captain. What is the point? SO earns more sitting around their shoebox walkup.

[bufe01]

The thing people forget is that if you were to go to a regional without FAA time you'd be looking at 1.5-2 years min before command, add another year at least for LTC upgrade and other year for Checking. That offer expires 2024, barely enough time to become a Captain. What is the point? SO earns more sitting around their shoebox walkup.

...... But they are actual real pilots, they can apply for jobs because they have a CV while our SOs are looking at how many years before upgrade ?
I mean it pays for your MBA and then you can piss off doing something else !
You got to start somewhere.
Having said that there are no Americans left here and none are coming unless they need heavy time to apply for Atlas.

[VforVENDETTA]

The thing people forget is that if you were to go to a regional without FAA time you'd be looking at 1.5-2 years min before command, add another year at least for LTC upgrade and other year for Checking. That offer expires 2024, barely enough time to become a Captain. What is the point? SO earns more sitting around their shoebox walkup.

The point is that these airlines are poaching pilots from each other. Presently, there is a lot of lateral movement going on. FO and capts going from one to another regional, collecting hefty bonuses and getting matched longevity pays already match so they don't start at the bottom of the payscale. They get year to year longevity payscale match. In some cases getting the base they've always wanted which their previous airline didn't offer.

It doesn't take 1-2 years at one airline to get the 1000hr 121 time needed to upgrade. You can at 2 years go to another airline, collect the bonus, get matched payscale longevity, and upgrade right away with your 1000 hr 121 time from previous airline. Cash bonus + matched payscale longevity at their higher per hour rate. That's how they attract pilots from other revional airlines. There will soon be another regional which will beat this ENVOY & PIEDMONT deal. Those who don't will keep losing pilots badly. It's a lovely show to watch...

[anxiao]

Another anecdote for you, I was dong my annual medical in HK yesterday and the AME mentioned that he had been doing a lot of FAA medical renewals for CX guys who were leaving these last few months. So I would guess that would back up bufe01's statement on no Americans left in HK, (apart from the business jets perhaps.)

If you hadn't noticed yet, somebody has moved your cheese...

[poydras]

Any US job is a right hand seat with right hand seat pay

> 45-50 y forget it

you do have way obsolete info Simbsim wing wong

[Latestormer]

Sometimes numbers do lie.

I'm an FAA ATP, and I account for 1 of those numbers on the blue bars. So do my colleagues that also did their checkrides over the past 8 years. None of us holding a working visa, so, as unrestricted ATP holders we should not be accounted as supply.

(I know someone will ask why we obtain a FAA ATP then. Some regulations are so messed up in a way that you'll only get the job if you hold an FAA ATPL, since the country's aviation authority can't back up a single license they've issued, as they might be even completely fake. Other than that, ratings do not expire. And yet, having one helps if you already have it)

[Flex88]

Not even a long weekend and the chaos will scare off travellers for years to come.. Somehow, same as at CX, geeks with spreadsheets and unquestionable "managers and CEO's" are in charge, scrounging for pennies to shore up their obvious ineptitude.. This folks, is your new world order:rolleyes:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/19/us-travelers-flight-cancellations-chaos

[iot]

American Airlines will end service to four cities in September citing pilot shortage (https://www.yahoo.com/news/american-airlines-end-four-cities-192519998.html)

[iot]

American Airlines is tripling pilots' pay after a scheduling glitch left thousands of flights without pilots (https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/07/business/american-airlines-pilots-triple-pay/index.html)

[Babyjet_dododo]

Where is the all moronic STW refuting there is a pilot shortage in the US?

[weasil]

https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/us-pilot-union-alpa-criticises-proposals-to-alleviate-pilot-shortage/149331.article
much of this has been covered but this article adds a summary of these two regional carriers plans to deal with the shortage. I worked at Skywest years ago when they operated the Brasilia under part 135. Skywest used this to build horrendous pilot schedules at the time. I don’t think turning to charter operations is the solution.

[Kennytheking]

I don't know all the ins and outs of the US market but wouldn't an airline identifying as a part 135 charter company be the same as a man identifying as a woman so he can use the ladies toilets:hmm:

[grummy]

Hi,

I'm a german citizen and fully FAA qualified ATP with a couple thousand hours lacking a work permit for the US,
Tried the greencard lottery several years with no luck.

What is the quickest way - and hopefully still affordable - to obtain a greencard?

Any advice appreciated, thank you.

[1201alarm]

https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/safety-ops-regulation/gop-lawmakers-introduce-bill-raise-us-pilot-retirement-age-67#:~:text=Republicans%20in%20the%20House%20and,qualified%20 pilots%20in%20coming%20years.

Unfortunately it is paywalled, but the title already says the most important thing: GOP Lawmakers Introduce Bill To Raise U.S. Pilot Retirement Age To 67July 26, 2022

[hunterboy]

Blimey…where the US leads, others will follow I imagine. Didn’t think I’d see this in my career.

[bafanguy]

Interesting...effective Oct. 21, 2022...changes to PIC criteria for FAA ATP...for some types of flying. Kind of long article but you'll get the idea:


"This final rule provides additional crediting options for certain pilot in command (PIC) time to count towards the 1,000 hours of air carrier experience required to serve as a PIC in air carrier operations. In addition, this final rule allows credit for select military time in a powered-lift flown in horizontal flight towards the 250 hours of airplane time as PIC, or second in command (SIC) performing the duties of PIC, required for an airline transport pilot (ATP) certificate. This action is necessary to expand opportunities for pilots that meet the amended criteria to use relevant flight experience toward the requirements for an ATP certificate and to meet PIC qualification requirements for air carrier operations."

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/09/21/2022-20328/recognition-of-pilot-in-command-experience-in-the-military-and-air-carrier-operations

[zerograv]

A bit of a thread drift ... but it might affect the shortage.

Any signs showing up on the horizon that indicate that activity could be spooling down in the near future, recession and so on, or is it still going strong ?

It seems that Fedex is parking aircraft due to a $500 Million revenew shortfall. "Macroeconomic weakness in Asia and service challenges in Europe"

[bafanguy]

A bit of a thread drift ... but it might affect the shortage.


No one knows for sure. But lots of opinions, I'm sure.

[vennnz]

US produces lots of pilots yearly, but many of them are foreign pilots seeking for training abroad and the returning to their home country. also you can check 30k private pilots but airlines need the full 1500h and thats not an easy job.