50% pay cuts

[Cxit]

Crew should stop flights until mgmt take 50% indefinite paycuts immediately to realign with industry norms.

[Firefly47]

Good luck with that.

[Flex88]

Crew should stop flights until mgmt take 50% indefinite paycuts immediately to realign with industry norms.

Watch closely from 21:16 onward :ok:

#CXit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5M9RfeHanw

[Sam Ting Wong]

Tucker Carlson is the devil

[Flex88]

Tucker Carlson is the devil

Ad hominem attacks simply elucidate your low level position in the hierarchy of CX and Hong Kong professionals.. You sir are nugatory :sad:

[Pistolpete47]

He really is though.

[mngmt mole]

One of the most profound and disturbing pieces of journalism i've ever seen. Perhaps you should take the time to watch it STW.

[1201alarm]

Tucker Carlson is a far right wing advocat of everything you can spin against the political opponent. The purpose is to daily fuel hatred and anger against the political opponent, not to solve problems or lead to progress.

The only useful thing in the story is that the US has a pilot shortage.

The rest is B.S. Has nothing to do with a vaccine mandate, but T.C.'s existence is to put such spins on every story.

The US has a pilot shortage because:
- less military pilots
- thousands of early retirements in wake of the covid travel bump, heavily supported by the companies at the time, which now seem to regret
- waaaaaaaaay to many small aircraft in the market: as far as I know, ~50% of all US majors movements a day are flown by regional jets. This has a long time history of being cheaper when the regionals had awful work conditions. Now this has changed. So the airlines need to correct their own strategic planning of the last 15 years and use bigger planes with a bit less dense network.

No need to scandalise, just remind aviation management to do their job: organise your business so that it works.

[Flex88]

Morons..
That video has valuable insight into what "may" help some ex CX / KA and other pilots have a better future.. I indicated in my post to start the video at the relevant time... All the rest of you finding fault/hate in the delivery person; well, you stay in Hong Kong and suffer for the rest of your lives as it's indicated that's where you belong.. Suffering with your CNN attached brains..

CX massive pay and benefit increases coming soon :D:D:D

[Oasis]

Morons..
That video has valuable insight into what "may" help some ex CX / KA and other pilots have a better future.. I indicated in my post to start the video at the relevant time... All the rest of you finding fault/hate in the delivery person; well, you stay in Hong Kong and suffer for the rest of your lives as it's indicated that's where you belong.. Suffering with your CNN attached brains..

CX massive pay and benefit increases coming soon :D:D:D

bloomberg (https://www.bloombergquint.com/business/starved-of-pilots-cathay-launches-biggest-ever-training-program)

Haven't you heard? CX is recruiting 800 fresh pilots in the next 3 years, locally. Problem solved!
Good luck with that...

[Cury Lamb]

bloomberg (https://www.bloombergquint.com/business/starved-of-pilots-cathay-launches-biggest-ever-training-program)

Haven't you heard? CX is recruiting 800 fresh pilots in the next 3 years, locally. Problem solved!
Good luck with that...

Interview panel: Welcome. So tell us, why do you want to be a CX pilot?

Candidate: My friend tells me it’s a good job. All you do is babysit the autopilot, and get paid heaps of money.

Interview panel: Thank you for your time. Don’t call us, we will call you :rolleyes:

Two weeks later in the newspaper: CX A340-300 tail strike in AKL, then continued to HKG. At the controls, 2 local cadets.

Good luck with that indeed!

[1201alarm]

Morons..
That video has valuable insight into what "may" help some ex CX / KA and other pilots have a better future.. I indicated in my post to start the video at the relevant time... All the rest of you finding fault/hate in the delivery person; well, you stay in Hong Kong and suffer for the rest of your lives as it's indicated that's where you belong.. Suffering with your CNN attached brains..

CX massive pay and benefit increases coming soon :D:D:D

I was never with CX and will never be. Not consuming CNN either. Was merely answering to people who think that T.C. is "One of the most profound and disturbing pieces of journalism" or "He really is though."

And by the way, I agree with your notion that the US pilot situation is a good thing, for pilots in HKG and also worldwide.

On a side note, since you seem so springloaded: introspect and ask yourself, where your anger is coming from.

Way too many people way tooo angry nowadays thanks to social media BS and guys like T.C. on Fox. Not better on the far left wing side of politics either. Where has just normality and reason gone? And yes, China is China, was never normal and reasonable by western standards, and will never be. No need to be angry about it either. Just go home, as soon as a reasonable opportunity exists.

[Whiteteanosugar]

Interview panel: Welcome. So tell us, why do you want to be a CX pilot?

Candidate: My friend tells me it’s a god job. All you do is babysit the autopilot, and get paid heaps of money.

Interview panel: Thank you for your time. You don’t have to contact us, we will contact you :rolleyes:

Two weeks later in the newspaper: CX A340-300 tail strike in AKL, then continued to HKG. At the controls, 2 local cadets.

Good luck with that indeed!

This is one of the more disappointing post from you CL. Goes to show the lens you carry when you go to work.

We don’t talk about the 3 hours return flight with ongoing cargo fire warning with at least two other nearest suitable (Expat pilots), 747 goaround in HK which triggered a hard GPWS because they all thought the AP was in but in fact it was just flying in the air aimlessly on its own (Expat pilots), or the 747 that almost crashed into a terminal building in JFK because they tried to do an autoland on an offset localiser ILS in fog (Expat pilots), BECAUSE WE SHOULDN’T. Mistakes happens and are made by humans and it is fortunate we get to learn from them from the outside looking in. Using one example to paint your kind of picture especially when there are hundreds of local captains flying at CX is just a disgusting act.

Of course there will be problems at Cathay with the drain of experience, but as it stands there are still plenty of experienced people around to set a good foundation for the future. If hiring cadets on masses is the future, doesn’t those who are still here have a responsibility to give it the best chance there is?

[Sam Ting Wong]

Racism and arrogance usually go hand in hand.

[veryoldchinahand]

STW I fully agree
Those days are long gone and this for the best.
- but weren't they great while they lasted !

[Oli777]

It is odd why people hate cadets so much. Is it their flying ability? Can't be, then blame the instructor for passing them. If it's their attitude then 100% we can all hate them together, but I'm sure it's not, as most are really nice chaps. There are always wankers in any company, not just cadets, so we can rule that out. The only last variable is the notion they got a job easier than I did, to me here lies the problem <-- the problem isn't with the cadet, it's with the person with the problem. If Curry Lamb thinks all cadets are useless, then please publish your real name and aviation career as well as your personal life history so we can all find some disaster he/she may have done. Everybody has stuffed up, even the sky gods who have been captains for 20 years and David Beckham.

I'm 99.99% sure that when you had just completed your licence and someone offered you a cadet course, you would take it, why not you'd be daft if you didn't! Same as a woman choosing a wealthy man so she doesn't have to work, whilst all she does is drink coffee and walk the kid, who wouldn't want an easier life?

I'm thinking Curry has either lost his/her job, been fired or retrenched, maybe even lost a half decent relationship, HK and her previous life is toxic now and it is not the utopia she once dreamed of. Maybe deep down she feels a failure and life is falling apart. Never fear Curry, the solution is near! Marry a wealthy man and drink coffee and walk the kid, remember to look good and have the odd fling on the side, maybe open a business selling cookies or an aviation recruitment company to hire cadets!

Either way, life is pointless just enjoy the ride. Curry I'm sure you are somewhat beautiful inside but please, just post jokes and more relevant funny topics or technical stuff.

PS: If a cadet passes a flight test, interview or an exam then they are the same as you.

[Cury Lamb]

Racism and arrogance usually go hand in hand.

So does Asian Culture and a steep Cockpit Hierarchy, that have led to a number of high profile prangs.

My interview scenario has nothing to do with the FLYING ABILITY of local pilots, nor racism, you can teach a monkey to fly for all I care.

But, there are very good reasons why mostly (Asian Airlines) including CXit has been hiring expats, again not for their (sic) exceptional flying skills :rolleyes: but rather to flatten hierarchy in the cockpit (sorry ladies, fright deck) and thereby eliminating all the loss of face BS, and saving a few airframes and lives:

https://www.claimsjournal.com/news/west/2013/12/16/241682.htm

https://www.cnn.com/2010/BUSINESS/06/29/china.rent.white.people/index.html

[Oli777]

Curry, just answer this:

1) Have you or did you lose / leave your job in Hong Kong

[Sam Ting Wong]

CL, you are digging yourself deeper in the hole.

You claim that the Asian culture of CADETS is inferior to pilots with a Western culture. That is textbook racism.

If CRM as practised in Asia is inferior is an entire different discussion.

[mngmt mole]

Joined in the late 80's, just as the cadet scheme was implemented. Many of them are long time friends at this point. They have unfailingly been professional and pleasant. The only real difference is our cultural experiences. I don't care where you come from, just be professional and make an effort to get along. They score highly on both counts. The real enemy wear suits and hate pilots. Don't descend to a place where pilots hate pilots.

[Zapp_Brannigan]

The problem is not with the cadets per se: I am sure they will be excellent aviators, in the future.

The problem lies with the fact that 800 zero hours pilots are replacing 800 20,000h Captains and experienced FOs.

[PercyP]

The problem is not with the cadets per se: I am sure they will be excellent aviators, in the future.
The problem lies with the fact that 800 zero hours pilots are replacing 800 20,000h Captains and experienced FOs.

Exactly. Hundreds of experienced pilots, many with 20-30 years of service, have either taken redundancies or resigned, to be replaced by people with zero experience.

[mngmt mole]

Agreed that the company's path forward is hollowing out the one aspect of the airlines operation that built their reputation of competence and safety.

[Sam Ting Wong]

The problem is not with the cadets per se: I am sure they will be excellent aviators, in the future.

The problem lies with the fact that 800 zero hours pilots are replacing 800 20,000h Captains and experienced FOs.

No cadet is replacing a senior captain. A slightly less senior captain is replacing the senior captain.

The whole safety argument is futile. No one cares.

[Oli777]

No Zapp, there is no such thing as a zero hour pilot. And no pilot (who has just finished flight school) suddenly becomes a captain of a 777, 747 etc.
There are many many many pilots in CX right now that joined with under 1000 hours, and all those hours were in light single engine aircraft eg. instructors. and they're doing great.
BOAC used to hire pilots straight from flight school, circuits & bumps in their large twin jets back in the day.

The problem now a days is with very senior captains and those who have retired, they joined airlines around the world with very low hours, sometimes no twin time at all, let alone a jet. Then years later when they were on selection boards they kept raising the entry levels to youngsters (who were like them) oh you need 1500 hours, then 3000 hours, then jet time, then EFIS time, then a degree! Meanwhile they had none of that when they joined. But when the world is short of pilots, they quickly change their tune.

Anyone can be anything they want, just put the work in.

[Rice power]

Oli your analogy is BS.
“Doing great” as a general statement is far removed from what I have witnessed
Experience counts, that is a given.
Spin your argument anyway you wish but keep to the facts and erase the conjecture please
You haven’t been around long enough to make any such assumptions.
I’ll be looking at the Crw composition when staff travel eventually opens up and the decision will be based on competence not nationality or path travelled (sic)

[Whiteteanosugar]

Oli your analogy is BS.
“Doing great” as a general statement is far removed from what I have witnessed
Experience counts, that is a given.
Spin your argument anyway you wish but keep to the facts and erase the conjecture please
You haven’t been around long enough to make any such assumptions.
I’ll be looking at the Crw composition when staff travel eventually opens up and the decision will be based on competence not nationality or path travelled (sic)

I’m intrigued as to how you can judge the competence of a set of crew by just looking at the crew list. Do you have access to the whole pilot body’s ERAS/TPMS? Maybe you are a STC and will only fly with crew who you’ve personally checked out and gave a 5, or else you are not getting on? Forgive me but I am genuinely curious how you judge competence via a crew list. Do tell.

And I wholly agree that the fault and cause of it all lies with the company and beancounters, not the fault of the cadets, who have to go through the same training and checks as someone who joined 20 years ago as SO with 3500 hours turboprop. We shouldn’t bring hate on each other as a group but I needed to call out stereotyping when I see it.

[VforVENDETTA]

No cadet is replacing a senior captain. A slightly less senior captain is replacing the senior captain.

The whole safety argument is futile. No one cares.
Domino effect going down line, each FO who upgrades to captain will have to be replaced with an SO. Fresh cadets in SO seats are woefully inadequately trained and qualified to fill the FO seat. They need much more training and skills built up before they can replace an FO. It's not their fault whatsoever. This is how cathay cadet system has always worked. They show up with minimum training cost to put them in a SECOND OFFICER" seat not a FIRST OFFICER" seat. There have been several cadet second officers who couldn't qualify to even be checked out of SO training on the 747 because they couldn't manage to handle engine failures on theb747 and after much attempt to train and qualify them they had to be put on the Airbus so they could be passed the training. This is an example of facts.

You need to look further than your own nose to see downline.

[VforVENDETTA]

The point being missed is that cathay pilot training is and always has been a joke. You either bring experience and skills with you or you spend time building it in a do-it-yourself checking environment. A cadet who has just been checked out to the line at cathay can barely perform Scond Officer duties (not qualified for takeoffs and landings, a bare basic minimum of piloting skills and qualifications) In fact some can't make it on the 747 after much simulator training (due to not being able to handle an engine failure practice in the simulator) and have to be placed on the airbus which is easier to fly. This is a fact which has been repeated several times in the last few years. It will take them at least a couple of years of putting in the work to the point where they can barely perform as junior First Officers. It takes as much as 4 years for a fresh hired cadet to make it as a junior First Officer. This has nothing to do with being local or not. This is cathay. Cathay doesn't have the training resources or efficiency to hire and train any more than a couple of hundred pilots per year even if experienced ones are hired off the street as direct entry. They have to spend a lot of money and time to develop their training department into something which it is not even close to at present time. How will they fill the seats being vacated at an alarming rate up the chain? A cadet hired today has no chance of flying a cathay airplane even as a second officer for 1.5 to 2 years. You can't replace a 1000 experienced pilots with a 1000 cadets in short time. It's physically time, MONEY, and effort consuming. And MONEY consuming.

Regardless of the propaganda BS they're putting out, they're very concerned about the exodus of pilots which is already well underway even before covid recovery. What they're hoping will work is to increase pay and benefits to the point which at least slows the exodus until they have enough cheaper pilots online so they can again cut the pay and benefits back down to the low level it is now or even lower as much as they can.

But having zero credibility left as an employer it's curious to see how how many pilots will be desperate enough to work for such an employer. The genie they let out of the bottle in October 2021 by cancelling our "employment contracts" permanently and placing us on "company policy" under the threat of being fired in 2 weeks, which is amenable at company's full discretion in every possible way as often as they want, can never be put back into the bottle. Whoever was the genius behind this must be recognized for doing so eternally. Greg H. And the board of directors who went along with it.

Even if they again offer a document written in the form of "employment contract" in the future to say "ok we're offering you an actual contract again" , cathay has proven via legal precedence that an "employment contract" you sign with cathay isn't worth the toilet paper you're signing it on. They can again cancel it as they wish anytime they want. You're mentally ill if you consider any cathay employment document any more than toilet paper ever again. How can you possibly plan for retirement having no way of knowing how much your career earnings will be at Cathay in X amount of years? Hong Kong banks have been bulking at giving cathay pilots any loans because of this fact. Your earnings are no longer guaranteed at any level for any amount of time.

They'll spend much more money than they thought they'd save by cancelling all employment contracts to attract and keep pilots only for short terms. Training costs will have to skyrocket to replace the constant attrition rate. Utter failure is all cathay as a business deserves at this point. It's nice to sit back and watch with some popcorn and laugh. It will be many years to establish anything hoping to supply enough local pilots as replacements. In the meantime, a forced shrinkage of the airline due to lack of pilots. Even the locals they train will then have to be paid well enough to keep them from leaving. There's no way cathay will save money as a result of contract cancelation. In the end, it will cost them more money and they've lost employer credibility forever. They want to sell this taco stand to someone else and get out but it being a penny stock company at this point (near worthless) they'd need to re-establish it to raise the stock price and you can't do that when your airplanes don't have enough pilots to fly them when it's time to ramp up flight operations. They made the judgment they would have sold and be out in 2 years making the crew shortage someone else's problem and hong kong covid being nowhere near allowing a recovery has completely f'ed their delusional plans.

Popcorns...

[veritas777]

So does Asian Culture and a steep Cockpit Hierarchy, that have led to a number of high profile prangs.

My interview scenario has nothing to do with the FLYING ABILITY of local pilots, nor racism, you can teach a monkey to fly for all I care.

But, there are very good reasons why mostly (Asian Airlines) including CXit has been hiring expats, again not for their (sic) exceptional flying skills :rolleyes: but rather to flatten hierarchy in the cockpit (sorry ladies, fright deck) and thereby eliminating all the loss of face BS, and saving a few airframes and lives:

https://www.claimsjournal.com/news/west/2013/12/16/241682.htm

https://www.cnn.com/2010/BUSINESS/06/29/china.rent.white.people/index.html

So does Western Culture and a steep bone headed stubbornness Hierarchy, that have led to a number of high profile prangs.

The reason Asian airlines need to look at expats is thanks to their superior national economies they don't have the time or money to waste faffing around with the nonsense that is general aviation flight training.

That's why hired help is brought from other countries to temporarily backfill so that training of highly talented local cadets can be done before the expats bugger off back to their homes - if they haven't ended up causing a mishap like the French gentleman at Air Asia.

Am I doing this right?

[dabz]

CX massive pay and benefit increases coming soon :D:D:D

Unfortunately with POS18 any increase can be taken away just as quick... toilet paper is more useful than the paper POS18 is written on

[lucille]

Unfortunately there are many airlines around the world whose pilots get a lot less than CX ‘s “new deal”. It is from there where they’ll find a constant stream of experienced pilots to warm the seats.

There has never been a shortage of hungry experienced pilots.

Note: I made no mention about quality, which is a trait becoming ever more redundant with advances in technology and systems. Management knows this.

[Zapp_Brannigan]

Note: I made no mention about quality, which is a trait becoming ever more redundant with advances in technology and systems. Management knows this.

Indeed, I suspect they are very well aware, hence the ban for circling approaches, for GS intercept from above, the "push/roll/thrust" in case you don't know how to recover from a stall.
The new training motto is: "If it's too difficult, don't teach it, just ban it."

Soon enough, it will be no more FO landing, and autoland only for the CN.

[AQIS Boigu]

Intersection departures at AirArabia 😒 come to mind

[ACMS]

In my experience It’s always the young SO’s and FO’s that say “experience doesn’t matter” ……..what else would you expect the tree up hugging woke brigade to say?

Experience doesn’t matter a hell of a lot until it DOES and by then it’s usually too late.

Cathay will come to regret disposing of all the experienced drivers ( CN and FO ) like cheap paper towels…..

They’ll end up just being another low cost smear on the ground……..

[oriental flyer]

I was flying with a young pilot , we were told to hold at Magog , the FO inserted the appropriate holding pattern into the FMC , the only problem was the outbound leg took us through a large CB clearly visible on the ND . I waited a while to see if he was actually aware of the CB . Nope he was very happy to hold as published flying through the CB . I had to intervene .
‘this is not about Asian vs European, it’s about experience vs inexperience .
on long haul flights with minimal yearly sectors it takes years to gain the necessary experience to sit in the left seat , now add a new captain with a very new FO and you have a less than ideal situation

[Freehills]

In my experience It’s always the young SO’s and FO’s that say “experience doesn’t matter” ……..what else would you expect the tree up hugging woke brigade to say?

Experience doesn’t matter a hell of a lot until it DOES and by then it’s usually too late.

Cathay will come to regret disposing of all the experienced drivers ( CN and FO ) like cheap paper towels…..

They’ll end up just being another low cost smear on the ground……..

No evidence I am aware of that LCC have higher accident rates than FSC.

[Airblast]

Rumour: Extension of housing and schooling beyond December 2022 is being seriously discussed at top managerial level due ‘ catastrophically high’ level of resignations.
This would tally with Kempis stating that COS18 is always being reviewed and is reviewable. (Although not in itself confirmation of the rumour.)

Too little too late?

Interesting to see whether the leadership team will deny this in a Teams meeting…..

[Flying Clog]

Too little too late. The horse has bolted.

With a contract that's 'amendable from time to time', and having seen CX's true colours, and the hopeless pit of despair HK is now, no one in their right mind would stay, even for more pay + housing/schooling extension.

We all tolerated Hong Kong for decades because the bucket of cash well outweighed the bucket of poop. Now that it's gone completely the other way... forget about it.

At least we walked away with 1-2 million usd in P fund and housing profits.

No regrets from me, but not looking back. Ever.

Correction - I do look back, fondly, at my time at CX, pre-covid. And thank Cathay for setting me up, financially secure, to now live in a proper civilised country and not a dystopian nightmare.

[AQIS Boigu]

Cadet airlines work if you have the right TRAINING system in place. This localisation will only be achievable if CX are to actually train and not just check.

Look at KLM and Lufthansa - 95% cadets for decades and how many prangs have they had (besides Tenerife unfortunately).

Both of these airlines also have a huge regional fleet.

[Flex88]

Rumour: Extension of housing and schooling beyond December 2022 is being seriously discussed at top managerial level due ‘ catastrophically high’ level of resignations.
This would tally with Kempis stating that COS18 is always being reviewed and is reviewable. (Although not in itself confirmation of the rumour.)

Too little too late?

Interesting to see whether the leadership team will deny this in a Teams meeting…..

Cmon folks, get real.. The jellyfish can spew his "always reviewable" trash talk BS however this will never mean a thing.. What everybody should by now understand is, since 1994, the undeniable fact of "what it is" the CX management sycophants unabashedly desire ( at any cost ) is monkeys that will fly their airplanes for HK $1000 A DAY + garbage medical & dental plans with equally pathetic " airline travel " benefits... Nothing has changed except management bonuses and benefits increasing !!

[KABOY]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x873/screen_shot_2022_04_10_at_1_00_29_pm_e6c66ecd556cfe69239fada 481f4835118fe5d50.png
50% pay cuts......not one has taken more than 30%.

[AQIS Boigu]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x873/screen_shot_2022_04_10_at_1_00_29_pm_e6c66ecd556cfe69239fada 481f4835118fe5d50.png
50% pay cuts......not one has taken more than 30%.

Greg’s bonus will make next year’s statement then

[pfvspnf]

Ceasar took how much pay cut ? Always rich man and poor man problem here , you need union

[YeahNahYeah]

Effectively HK$3m take home pay a year and he still needs help paying the rent? Wouldn’t it be cheaper to put him up in one of the Swire properties, surely they go for less than HK$250k pm…

[hyg]

Effectively HK$3m take home pay a year and he still needs help paying the rent? Wouldn’t it be cheaper to put him up in one of the Swire properties, surely they go for less than HK$250k pm…

may be that's probably how they transfer the cx money to Swire property?