China Eastern 737-800 MU5735 accident March 2022

[threep]

The headlines don't match the quotes. The media have inferred that because it appears to not be a technical problem with the aircraft or engines, it must have been a deliberate act. That's a big leap. Hopefully the CVR can illuminate that..

My questions, if a pilot was standing, became incapacitated and fell forward, could they fall on the yoke such that it would put the aircraft into a near vertical attitude?
If you had an aircraft in a near vertical attitude with an incapacitated person on the yoke, how difficult would it be for the other pilot(s) to remove the incapacitated person and regain control ?

(SLF and Chartered Engineer working in aerospace)

[Australopithecus]

No. There is a control sear behind each yoke. A toppling person would fall forward onto the engine controls. I am sure that a pilot's deliberate sustained nose down control input would be impossible to counter in sufficient time to affect the outcome. That’s after 25 years on type, and I am a former University football linebacker.

[Clop_Clop]

Calling it suicide by pilot is not particularly good description of it as well you could argue... suicide is something you do to yourself and doesn't involve others...

[Nil by mouth]

^^^^^^^ Mass murder would be more appropriate.

[Cornish Jack]

There are assumptions being made here. The question, then, is ... who benefits from the options posed (both in terms of finance, and reputation)?
Having closely followed the Colorado Springs event, I am unconvinced.

[WideScreen]

WideScreen has it occurred to you that the other two pilots in the flight deck may have disagreed with the other pilot and perhaps attempted to take control?
Of course, though, this idea would make the situation even more strange, that the assumed illicit pilot manages to become rogue again and the 2 others "didn't" do anything at all, given the startling factor of a potential first action would be overcome by now.

And the whole is even stranger, given it is clear, the pilots do attempt to keep the aircraft somewhat on the original course (deviates roughly +/- 30 degrees), which would be very strange, when fighting with the yokes would happen.

Let us wait and see, what the control inputs were: Yoke or trim.

My bet is on trim. And that might not have been through any of the trim switches in the cockpit........

[txl]

Just to redeem my fellow journalists: The leap from

“The plane did what it was told to do by someone in the cockpit,” said a person who is familiar with American officials’ preliminary assessment, which includes an analysis of information extracted from the plane’s damaged flight-data recorder.

to those headlines is not as big as some here like to make us believe. That is a very specific statement in regard to action and effect made by someone who's seen inside information.

[172_driver]

I’m not buying it.
These Boeings have a history of “deliberately” crashing. The only suicide I know of that’s been confirmed was the German Wings one. The rest are conjecture to save the manufacturer,

Air Mozambique flight 470 in 2013. That one is hard to argue with.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAM_Mozambique_Airlines_Flight_470

[WideScreen]

Just to redeem my fellow journalists: The leap from

“The plane did what it was told to do by someone in the cockpit,” said a person who is familiar with American officials’ preliminary assessment, which includes an analysis of information extracted from the plane’s damaged flight-data recorder.
to those headlines is not as big as some here like to make us believe. That is a very specific statement in regard to action and effect made by someone who's seen inside information.
Actually, the reality might be even less exact, and this might read more like:
“The plane did what we read back from what the sensors of the cockpit flight controls registered on the FDR."

The CVR could give the additional info, whether the movements of the cockpit flight controls (represented by the sensor values) are caused by human inputs. Of course not in a 1:1 relationship, though qualitatively.

[tdracer]

The yoke forces are on the FDR - so it would be trivial to differentiate between pilot yoke inputs and a trim failure.
I know people who were directly involved in the Egypt Air investigation. The Egyptians never agreed with a pilot deliberate act, but among the investigators on this side of the pond, there was zero doubt.

Calling it suicide by pilot is not particularly good description of it as well you could argue... suicide is something you do to yourself and doesn't involve others...

It's rather well documented that people that are suicidal generally don't account for how their actions will affect other, uninvolved people (e.g. the passengers). Hence someone who decides to commit suicide by suddenly turning their car into on-coming traffic at high speed won't consider the impact of the young family occupants of the oncoming car.

[WideScreen]

The yoke forces are on the FDR - so it would be trivial to differentiate between pilot yoke inputs and a trim failure.
.....
Good to hear about the yoke forces being registered.

Still, why word the "pilot input" so cryptic, when it was "just" yoke input:
“The plane did what it was told to do by someone in the cockpit,”

[jolihokistix]

Scenario 2/20.

If I was senior (and bitter) enough, maybe I could just request everyone else out of the cockpit, apart from the one at the controls. From there it’s my field of play…

[FlightDetent]

Scenario 2/20.

If I was senior (and bitter) enough, maybe I could just request everyone else out of the cockpit, apart from the one at the controls. From there it’s my field of play…Not allowed and its and eerie request. But waiting for the right moment when PIC goes to toilet before TOD...
​​​​​​... and the cadet would not take the vacant chair but stay on the jump seat out of courtesy.

​​​​​​

[Stick Flying]

Good to hear about the yoke forces being registered.

Still, why word the "pilot input" so cryptic, when it was "just" yoke input:
But your "bet" is on trim isn't it? If there were no defects currently being investigated, either it wasn't trim or it was forward trim with neutral or forward control input. Surely this type of event couldn't happen with any crew that were monitoring the flight path. And I can't think of many instances where a yoke input could be achieved without at least some form of pilot input (deliberate or accidental).

I have an open mind on this event. What we currently have is a leak from some party which in my mind has no credibility guarantee. Until we get something on formal lines I'd say there are many possible scenarios. The sooner this can be put to bed the better in my opinion.

[Chronic Snoozer]

If we look at the number of actual or suspected suicide crashes involving just commercial flights and excluding terrorist incidents, the numbers are quite disturbing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_pilot

A technical issue on a particular type which was causing a hull loss this frequently would be unacceptable and the fleet would be grounded until it was rectified. The authorities will need to be seen to be taking action, even if it's ineffective at least they tried something. Having a cabin crew come in when one pilot left the flight deck didn't really achieve anything. The next step could be psychiatric evaluations which enable the buck to be passed on to the psychiatrist if anything happens.
​​

Wikipedia should be calling it what it is - mass murder or murder-suicide, not suicide, if there is anyone but a single pilot aboard.

[phylosocopter]

I am slightly shocked by the rush to conclusion here. As I am by the premature disclosure of FDR data. The question that now needs an answer is, "What were the pilots seeing on their displays" .

[EDLB]

"What were the pilots seeing on their displays" .
Simple answer. Only brown color on the PFD.

[phylosocopter]

Simple answer. Only brown color on the PFD.
But if for some reason they were only seeing blue that would go some way to explaining events . We do not know. How about we wait for more facts.

[punkalouver]

I’m not buying it.
These Boeings have a history of “deliberately” crashing. The only suicide I know of that’s been confirmed was the German Wings one. The rest are conjecture to save the manufacturer,
That is certainly an explanation that the Chinese will be looking for a way to somehow grasp at.

Expect a final report a long time from now with extensive analysis of many possible scenarios that can't be proven(unless there is obvious CVR statements).

[FWRWATPLX2]

When I was flying in China, the crew would typically comprise of a very junior First Officer and a slightly less junior First Officer, trained in either the US or Australia. They would return to China and their FAA or CASA Pilot License would be taken off of them or voluntarily surrendered. They would be under the thumb of crusty ol' dudes who had no clue about CRM and TEM, would shout at them and insult them, sometimes they would be hit. I have personally witnessed the shouting and insults, while flying jump seat. For a Chinese pilot to fly for the airline and certainly before they become Captain, they must join the Communist Party of China -as if that has any relevance to serving as a flight crewmember. The airline management would fine them or penalize their pay IF they called in sick or told Crew Scheduling they had insufficient Crew Rest. I constantly flew with young Chinese FOs who were sick or grossly fatigued (not more than 4 hours sleep). These young FOs barely spoke English, though some were better than others. By the time I would fly with them they had 750 to 2,500 flying hours. They would be considered for Captain upgrade after 2,500 flying hours. One of my functions was to sign the Chinese FOs Pilot Logbook to certify their flying hours. Whenever I discovered any exaggeration or erroneous entries, overstating what we/they did, I would refuse to sign their Pilot Logbook, unless they changed it. I found most of the FOs were pretty timid. The more junior they were, the more timid they were, though I had one new FO decide he would change my fuel order, because he believed he knew better with his whopping 750 flying hours. I would typically fly with one FO outbound and they would swap seats and I would fly with the former jump seat FO, inbound. I flew with about 200 FOs. I would guess that 10% were cooperative and I felt they had real potential as aviators. Half of that number I would consider as friends and had the potential to become great pilots.

I asked many FOs why they became pilots and told those who offered pathetic replies or who did it for the uniform or salary or to make their their daddy and mommy or girlfriend proud, that they should consider another career, like driving a taxi. Another Asian airline I flew with, we were operating a Heavy Crew. I would fly the crap weather and make the approach and landing at a snowbound airport, then fly the jump seat, to LAX, and fly us back to Asia, after our Crew Rest. So, dig this situation . . . The Asian Captain who replaced me, a very nice guy, too nice was a retired Major in his country's Air Force. His Asian First Officer from the snowbound airport to LAX was a retired Brigadier General in the Air Force. I refer to them as Captain-Major and General FO. Cathay Pacific was parked opposite direction and de-icing. Falling snow, ramp and taxiways covered with frozen snow and slush, text book definition of Icing Conditions. The European Cruise Captain just completed external preflight of our 744. He invited me to go outside to show me the aircraft would in fact need to be de-iced, when he asked me, General FO, said, "No need." Have you EVER heard of an FO telling a Captain what to do or making decisions for him? I went outside and yep, it needed de-icing. I came back inside and asked Captain-Major, if he would like to take a look for himself, when General FO said, "No need." I was effing livid. I grabbed the SOP, the Boeing Manual, removed the pertinent pages, lifted the Yoke clip and let lit loudly snap and told him to read it. "There is a need." Guess what his reply was? "No need." I looked to Captain-Major, and he looked like a spent dick, shriveled and withdrawn into his seat.

THIS IS WHAT GOES ON IN ASIAN COCKPITS, though the power gradient is not often weighted toward the FO . . . That particular FO was the senior most FO at the airline and for whatever reason could not be upgraded to Captain, yet ruled the roost -except when flying with me and he couldn't fly well, at all. I gave him an opportunity to show me how great he was at Cruise, Autopilot Off. General Dick!

So, relate the aforementioned to MU5735.

Lastly, for consideration, Andreas Lubitz, (GermanWings) passed the DLR, which has a high failure rate. The MMPI, NEO-PI-R, FFM, PILAPT, COMPASS, and consider the most stringent test with about an 8% pass rate, the DLR, did not predict the actions of Andreas Lubitz. Suppose after an airline pilot takes and passes one of the Psych Tests with flying colors, but develops a terminal cancer or some other disease that is a death sentence and he has nothing to live for . . . Would any of those Psych Tests predict the terminal illness and the change in that pilot's mental health. NO! In fact, the authors or designers of those Psych Tests would not have a clue what makes a pilot or what it takes to be(come) a pilot. According to the studies done for the US Army, to predict who would make the best candidates and who would be likely to graduate, I would have been on the bottom of the Bell Curve, my Senior TAC told me I would not make it and that he wanted my resignation on his desk. I snapped to attention, saluted, and replied, "You will have to kill me first. I will not resign." I graduated with my class. In fact I was the first Class Leader and held the position the longest. Not only did I graduate with my original classmates, I was offered my first choice assignment. I bounced from that springboard to become a Captain flying Boeing 747-400, 747-300, 747-200, 737-800, and 737-700 transport category jets. Our last Class Leader and Honor Grad had not even accomplished that during his aviation career. Thus, I standby the aforementioned statement, In fact, the authors or designers of those Psych Tests would not have a clue what makes a pilot or what it takes to be(come) a pilot. You have to believe in yourself and you have to have a real passion for it, probably since boyhood.

[Uplinker]

But if for some reason they were only seeing blue that would go some way to explaining events . We do not know. How about we wait for more facts.

What, on all three displays - both PFDs and the Standby ? Highly unlikely that all three would simultaneously display massive pitch-up.

Mind, you that Swedish CRJ did a similar thing when only the Captain's AI display went wrong.

From what FWRWATPLX2 posts - very worrying and concerning - it seems that we might never know the truth?

[Less Hair]

This accident is more like a problem of protocol and sharing results with the public it seems.
We have the trajectory, no obvious technical problems with the accident aircraft and no current change requirements for China's active fleet, all pointing in one direction...

[WideScreen]

Simple answer. Only brown color on the PFD.

But if for some reason they were only seeing blue that would go some way to explaining events . We do not know. How about we wait for more facts.

What, on all three displays - both PFDs and the Standby ? Highly unlikely that all three would simultaneously display massive pitch-up.

Mind, you that Swedish CRJ did a similar thing when only the Captain's AI display went wrong.

From what FWRWATPLX2 posts - very worrying and concerning - it seems that we might never know the truth?

Sure, daylight and pretty clear sky, as it seems.

[WideScreen]

Scenario 2/20.

If I was senior (and bitter) enough, maybe I could just request everyone else out of the cockpit, apart from the one at the controls. From there it’s my field of play…

Not allowed and its and eerie request. But waiting for the right moment when PIC goes to toilet before TOD...
​​​​​​... and the cadet would not take the vacant chair but stay on the jump seat out of courtesy.
​​​​​
With such a scenario, there would have been no successful recovery, halfway down.

[WideScreen]

But your "bet" is on trim isn't it? If there were no defects currently being investigated, either it wasn't trim or it was forward trim with neutral or forward control input. Surely this type of event couldn't happen with any crew that were monitoring the flight path. And I can't think of many instances where a yoke input could be achieved without at least some form of pilot input (deliberate or accidental).

I have an open mind on this event. What we currently have is a leak from some party which in my mind has no credibility guarantee. Until we get something on formal lines I'd say there are many possible scenarios. The sooner this can be put to bed the better in my opinion.
Trim: I don't want to rule out the "control" through trim. The leaked message is just too cryptic to let it have been a "normal" yoke control of the airplane.

Investigation: There is probably not that much physically left to investigate, given the airplane is largely shattered in small pieces. So, it's largely only FDR/CVR.

What I am suggesting is, there are more tech ways to move the pitch control surfaces, than only the yoke and trim switches itself. Having an open mind to these aspects might be useful, instead of diving onto a suicide scenario.

For example, remember the recent fight between FAA and Boing about the YES/NO cable rerouting, because short-circuits were presumed to be able to cause the trim motor to move, without the trim switches being activated (Or the trim-disable switches being effective). We also know, that manual trim with the trim wheel is only theoretically possible. And we also know, stopping a run-away trim by holding the trim wheel will also be challenging.

There are simply too many fuzzy aspects, not really fitting an upfront suicide scenario.

[ATC Watcher]

Quick comments ; on the suicide hypothesis, nothing concrete so far, so let's give it a bit of time until the CVR analysis either confirms or infirm that. Would it be only out of respect for the pilots and the victims families.

FWRWATPLX2 (https://www.pprune.org/members/143859-fwrwatplx2) : Andreas Lubitz, (GermanWings) passed the DLR, which has a high failure rate. Andreas Lubitz was a highly intelligent young man who knew all the answers to give and which box to tick before joining, he became later totally obsessed with losing his licence, and flying was his only passion and that drove him totally outside the edge. The very sad thing is that everyone around him knew he had lost it, his girl friend, his parents , his brother , his psychiatrist and most of the dozen of doctors he consulted in the 6 months before his act. Sadly none of them could prevent him for reporting sick , even less in quitting the job. . This loophole is still there , in Germany at least .Mental illness is a huge issue and many companies do not know how to deal with it.

[Less Hair]

He was ill and this was known. This is why he had to interrupt his flight training and pause. He got cleared to return after medical examination and by special permit. Only then things went out of control.

[Stick Flying]

Trim: I don't want to rule out the "control" through trim. The leaked message is just too cryptic to let it have been a "normal" yoke control of the airplane.

Investigation: There is probably not that much physically left to investigate, given the airplane is largely shattered in small pieces. So, it's largely only FDR/CVR.

What I am suggesting is, there are more tech ways to move the pitch control surfaces, than only the yoke and trim switches itself. Having an open mind to these aspects might be useful, instead of diving onto a suicide scenario.



You are missing the point. The leak suggested the "plane did what it was told to by someone in the cockpit". That would rule out runaway trim in my opinion. I will concede, the leak is no more reliable than a paper tissue condom.
Either way, runaway trim has a memory item drill. Given the demise of the Max, I'd have thought any Boeing crews would be pretty hot on that.

[phylosocopter]

What, on all three displays - both PFDs and the Standby ? Highly unlikely that all three would simultaneously display massive pitch-up.

Mind, you that Swedish CRJ did a similar thing when only the Captain's AI display went wrong.

From what FWRWATPLX2 posts - very worrying and concerning - it seems that we might never know the truth?

My point was that a CFIT might be the result of a loss of situational awareness (for whatever reason) rather than criminal intent.
I also wonder if perhaps the initial descent might be because of a decompression event or other emergency (or the pilot believed there was one) and then somehow the leveling out from that manoeuver was botched. This scenario could fit both the flight profile and the "pilot inputs" info.

[fdr]

My point was that a CFIT might be the result of a loss of situational awareness (for whatever reason) rather than criminal intent.
I also wonder if perhaps the initial descent might be because of a decompression event or other emergency (or the pilot believed there was one) and then somehow the leveling out from that manoeuver was botched. This scenario could fit both the flight profile and the "pilot inputs" info.

The actual cause of the accident will be discernable from the flight data recorder parameters of control column position and elevator and stabilizer position v aircraft flight path.
ICAO Annex 6 Part I, App 8 states the basic requirements for the FDR, it is mandatory to have had both the primary flight control surface and the primary flight control pilot inputs. Force inputs are not mandatory unless they are also displayed to the pilot in some form that they are not on the B737, however, the DFDAU may still be recording that data and providing it to the DFDR. (have looked at both outputs, with and without, and also separately recorded the forces by a tap from the databus for test purposes (429), which was not recorded by the DFDR (717), but was being measured). The integrity of the control run can be ascertained from the position data of the control input and the control position, and that will tell immediately whether the flight path was a deliberate action or not. If CAAC doesn't release the data, then it will be up to the next of kin to take action to subpoena the data. CAAC accident reports alone have questionable value beyond any data they provide; wasted lots of time with the lunacy that passes for analysis in their reports. Great food, good beer, accident reports not so much.

[FWRWATPLX2]

ATC Watcher wrote:
The very sad thing is that everyone around him knew he had lost it, his girl friend, his parents , his brother , his psychiatrist and most of the dozen of doctors he consulted in the 6 months before his act. Sadly none of them could prevent him for reporting sick , even less in quitting the job

Anyone one of them so close to Andreas could have easily picked up the telephone and called airline management or Luftfahrt-Bundesamt. That is all it would have taken. Every Aviation Regulator, around the world has a Safety Hotline.

[BoeingDriver99]

@ATC Watcher; where did you get this information from? It makes it sound like it was obvious as daylight and if so then those around him should bear some responsibility. Bearing in mind his parents disagree with the findings of the investigation and claim it wasn't suicide - they can't be included in your statement.

When a person commits suicide part of the pain of those left behind is the feeling that they should have seen it coming and should have done something - they feel in some way responsible. But the sad reality is that if it was that obvious then either someone would have done something to prevent it or they are complicit in the process (in general).

[WideScreen]

You are missing the point. The leak suggested the "plane did what it was told to by someone in the cockpit". That would rule out runaway trim in my opinion. I will concede, the leak is no more reliable than a paper tissue condom.
Either way, runaway trim has a memory item drill. Given the demise of the Max, I'd have thought any Boeing crews would be pretty hot on that.
Maybe, I am missing the point less than you think. Read this post:

“The plane did what we read back from what the sensors of the cockpit flight controls registered on the FDR." (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/645805-china-eastern-737-800-mu5735-accident-march-2022-a-26.html#post11232040)

Or so to say, don't blindly trust sensors / sensor registrations, when things did go haywire. A sensor could register trim switch activation, whereas the factual situation might be a short circuit, simulating the trim switch activation.

And, of course, runaway trims are a hot item for Boing 737 crews, though we also know, that "the manual trim wheel is there because of regulations", "manually stopping that trim wheel is quite a challenge to put it mildly" and "manually trimming using the trim wheel is a demand that largely only works during certification demonstration" (and not, when things go haywire).

We do have the situation of a complete recovery, as well an initial action to return to the original FL and then, things go haywire again. All accompanied by obvious attempts to "stay on course in a turbulent handling situation". This is not something that much compatible with a suicide attempt.

[WideScreen]

My point was that a CFIT might be the result of a loss of situational awareness (for whatever reason) rather than criminal intent.
I also wonder if perhaps the initial descent might be because of a decompression event or other emergency (or the pilot believed there was one) and then somehow the leveling out from that manoeuver was botched. This scenario could fit both the flight profile and the "pilot inputs" info.
Decompression event and then nose over into a >45 degrees dive ? Hmmmm.

[WideScreen]

@ATC Watcher; where did you get this information from? It makes it sound like it was obvious as daylight and if so then those around him should bear some responsibility. Bearing in mind his parents disagree with the findings of the investigation and claim it wasn't suicide - they can't be included in your statement.

When a person commits suicide part of the pain of those left behind is the feeling that they should have seen it coming and should have done something - they feel in some way responsible. But the sad reality is that if it was that obvious then either someone would have done something to prevent it or they are complicit in the process (in general).
The issue with suicidal people is, they often live a life to socially please other people. With the consequence, those people become very hesitating to report that person to the authorities, etc.

[ATC Watcher]

ATC Watcher wrote:
Anyone one of them so close to Andreas could have easily picked up the telephone and called airline management or Luftfahrt-Bundesamt. That is all it would have taken. Every Aviation Regulator, around the world has a Safety Hotline.
Yes Capt Hindsight at work again . For the direct family as Boeing driver 99 said, they are in complete denial of the suicide version , embarking in the cockpit fumes theory , they certainly would not have called the airline or the LBA .
But they all knew he was not mentally well and should not have been flying , That was my point here.
. As to the medical staff all of them the law in Germany is absolutely strict , total confidentiality is mandatory . You could loose your practice if you called the authorities. These strict laws date back from 1945-46 following the Nazi times where mentally sick people were denounced by their doctors and ended up being euthanatized . Even after the event , most of those doctors do not feel guilty , they followed the law they say. I am glad I am not in their shoes .

Boeing Driver 99 :
ATC Watcher; where did you get this information from? It makes it sound like it was obvious as daylight and if so then those around him should bear some responsibility
How do I know the details? Too long to explain and not for internet, send me a PM if you want. Just to clarify a point : it was not obvious at all to anyone that he would commit this mass murder , or even that he would commit suicide , as far as I know no-one predicted that , but those I mentioned that they knew he was not mentally well lately, totally obsessed about losing his license, did not sleep , and should not definitively have been flying , Many of the 40 or so doctors he consulted in the last months gave him papers to stay at home and not work, but he disregarded them ( some were found in his home afterwards) and he continued to fly. As to who should bear responsibility ? I do not want to be entering that debate, read again the way I phrased my earlier post ..

As an incident investigator said ; what can we do to prevent this from happening again ? and can it happen again? . I do not have an answer to the first question (,the F/A in cockpit was a knee jerk reaction that did not last long) but to the second question : sadly , it is a yes.

[Stick Flying]

We do have the situation of a complete recovery, as well an initial action to return to the original FL and then, things go haywire again. All accompanied by obvious attempts to "stay on course in a turbulent handling situation". This is not something that much compatible with a suicide attempt.

You'd rather interpret the 'limited use' Flight Radar information as indicating 'a complete recovery'. That's quite a bold assumption to make. That event (the reduction in descent and initial climb) could quite easily have been some form of oscillation due to the dynamic forces (completely outside the realms of any tested envelope) that lead to a further structural failure. Or a structural failure that then lead to an oscillation returning to the original steep descent profile.

All I know is the aircraft entered a quite extreme profile. The information in the open domain at present indicates no conclusive explanation as to why. The investigation team may have a lead on the causes. A 'supposed' insider thinks the team know the aircraft behaved 'as commanded'. I don't personally think that insider leak holds any weight. I still think there are many possible causes, and yes, suicide could be plausible in my opinion. But so could aircraft malfunction or pilot error.

[predictorM9]

Wait, what? Speed is relative. As a result, kinetic energy is relative as well. Let's say you are sitting down in a train moving at a constant speed of 100 km/h relative to the ground, in a straight line. You as a passenger would have zero kinetic energy relative to the train frame of reference. And if the train wouldn't have any windows (and assuming you can't rely on noise either), you wouldn't even be able to tell if the train is stationary or is moving.

Now imagine you have a small drone, and you fly it inside that train. Again, it would be irrelevant if the train were moving at 100km/h or 200km/h relative to the ground, or if it were stationary. It would have no effect on the flight of the drone inside the train, and the G forces and aerodynamic effects it experiences.

Kinetic energy (and potential energy too) values are relative to the frame of reference you choose, however changes in kinetic energy during a collision are not. No matter which inertial frame of reference you will compute the collision in, the dissipated energy during the collision will always be 1/2*m*v^2.

For example if you consider the frame of the Earth, the initial energy is 1/2*m*v^2, final energy is zero, so energy dissipated is 1/2*m*v^2. If you consider the frame going at the same speed as the airplane, the initial kinetic energy is that of the Earth, and that kinetic energy becomes slightly less after the collision due to the impact (and small change of momentum of the Earth). The change is still 1/2*m*v^2

[Clop_Clop]

The yoke forces are on the FDR - so it would be trivial to differentiate between pilot yoke inputs and a trim failure.
I know people who were directly involved in the Egypt Air investigation. The Egyptians never agreed with a pilot deliberate act, but among the investigators on this side of the pond, there was zero doubt.

It's rather well documented that people that are suicidal generally don't account for how their actions will affect other, uninvolved people (e.g. the passengers). Hence someone who decides to commit suicide by suddenly turning their car into on-coming traffic at high speed won't consider the impact of the young family occupants of the oncoming car.

Good point. Real outliers though these events in the air in any case...

[ChrisJ800]

Im not sure if you have seen this video as it was uploaded to youtube 6 days ago but gives an interesting perspective...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vxq2xuEyCM

[FWRWATPLX2]

Regarding the Utube video interview by Sky sNews:

Byron Bailey offering his two cents worth. Pffft! The guy is a media junkie, seeking fame, fortune, and mostly relevance. You mean simple business attire or a conservative business suit would not suffice for the interview, he has to impress by wearing a pilot shirt an Captain stripes, as if nobody would believe he is a Captain. Surprised he didn't occasionally flash his big watch, too. And, what is the largest aircraft he has served on as Captain? A clue, it has two engines. This quack used to write a column in 'The Australian' newspaper, but mostly a lot of b.s. and sandbagging Boeing. I would always send correct(ed) information to the Editor and let 'em know Bailey was full of crap.

Without complete analysis of the CVR and FDR, we do not know 100% what happened or who in the cockpit may have put the aircraft in the nosedive.

He talks about pilot salaries in China and Chinese cultural issues, but how would he know, if he has never operated there? At least, I can state for a fact I served as a Captain, in China, on China Eastern Boeing 737-800 aircraft and lived there full-time, nearly five years.

Be sure it was not me he was referring to in the video as his source.

[ferry pilot]

Often as not, suicide is impulsive. If this was a pilot with a problem, he may not have been suicidal until the instant he shoved the nose down. Like holding a handgun, or thinking about a flick of the wheel into oncoming traffic, there are some things certain people should not be doing at certain times.

[olster]

In terms of pilot mental illness I made a big mistake in not reporting a colleague many years ago that worked for a very large U.K. airline. This individual came to me with a bizarre proposition which I will not go into but he was apparently compelled to ask me this because the ‘voices in his head’ were driving him (a sure sign of schizophrenia).His flat mate (another pilot) was aware of the ‘voices’ but did not appear as concerned as me. I stress that this individual was a first officer on a Boeing 747. I have always regretted not reporting him to the U.K. CAA. He obviously needed help. I was a lot younger and naive and this is not a mistake I would make again. Our innocent passengers deserve better than the rights of the regrettably mentally unwell.

[Less Hair]

Somebody with -say- impaired vision will be blocked from flying right away but mental illness is a like a taboo sort of thing. Ignoring it will not work but then will people try to just hide it even more?

[NSEU]

Reported suicide note?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_xupptkcso

[Less Hair]

Interesting details about the background of the FO. Thanks for posting.

[Sallyann1234]

Somebody with -say- impaired vision will be blocked from flying right away but mental illness is a like a taboo sort of thing. Ignoring it will not work but then will people try to just hide it even more?
The difference is that eyesight can be easily and accurately measured. Assessment of mental illness is highly subjective and can be difficult to diagnose. Furthermore, investigations can be self defeating - they apply more pressure on the subject when work/life stress is probably the origin of the illness. I'm aware of a person in a very stressful job - not flying - who finally stepped in front of a tube train after his employer required him to undertake a psychiatric assessment.

In the end it may be that this is a risk which cannot be entirely avoided.

[Less Hair]

The big question is should "we" block "them" more or maybe less or just leave it the way it is? Leaving it the way it is seems to not detect enough people with acute symptoms in time? How much of a price do the flying public and colleagues have to pay?

[FlightDetent]

Sounds to me like the media are hopelessly trying to brew a story about what was (not) said in the other media, with absolutely no new pieces of information.

[phylosocopter]

Sounds to me like the media is hopelessly trying to brew a story about what was (not) said in the other media, with absolutely no new pieces of information.
Agree!
The echo chamber in action . It actually makes no difference how many "experts" repeat the same conjecture on youtube , or opine on this forum. This discussion of suicide at this time is just noise.

[Furniture Saver]

The one thing that is perfectly clear is that the Chinese should, promptly, publish a truthful report. If they wish to play on the world stage, they need to play by world rules, and that includes openness about things such as aviation crashes (I won’t rant about public health and coronaviruses here). Whether it’s deliberate connivance or not, letting the NTSB leak half-truths does nothing to help anyone (except Boeing, of course).

[Big Pistons Forever]

There is no official statement released by any Chinese Government official on any subject that can be trusted. They lie even when they don't have to.

If the truth of this tragedy comes out it will be in spite of the Chinese Government actions, not because of it.

[fox niner]

The one thing that is perfectly clear is that the Chinese should, promptly, publish a truthful report. If they wish to play on the world stage, they need to play by world rules, and that includes openness about things such as aviation crashes (I won’t rant about public health and coronaviruses here).

Ah…but here you are perceiving the whole situation from a western point of view. You see, China is running a decades-long program in which they intend to CHANGE the rules of the world. They will continue until their influence makes them the only superpower of the planet.
including the change of standards, the change of history, and the change of truth.

[jolihokistix]

While visiting Dalian in NE China, I was told by a local university staff member that the CCP government can change anything they like. If the law says (as it apparently does) that factory workers must quit working and go home whenever the summer temperature hits 35 degrees, then all media sources will continue to report a maximum of 34 degrees at the monitoring station.

There is one thing, however, that they are powerless to change. That is what day of the week it is today.
(Cynical but healthy Chinese humour at work.)

[Busbuoy]

If you want to see what the Sinofuture holds watch the 2144AD segment of Cloud Atlas. Change the names a little if it helps but you'll get the drift.

[ZFT]

While visiting Dalian in NE China, I was told by a local university staff member that the CCP government can change anything they like. If the law says (as it apparently does) that factory workers must quit working and go home whenever the summer temperature hits 35 degrees, then all media sources will continue to report a maximum of 34 degrees at the monitoring station.

There is one thing, however, that they are powerless to change. That is what day of the week it is today.
(Cynical but healthy Chinese humour at work.)

This is nothing new. In 1979/80 whilst working at Iraqi Airways there was a similar reg except the trigger temp was something like 50C. Obviously the reported temp never exceeded 49C!!
(My thermometer recorded way in excess of 50C quite often)

[Less Hair]

Can their ATIS be trusted?

[W9SQD]

This is nothing new. In 1979/80 whilst working at Iraqi Airways there was a similar reg except the trigger temp was something like 50C. Obviously the reported temp never exceeded 49C!!
(My thermometer recorded way in excess of 50C quite often)

In the 80's at Gulf Air, one summer morning the ATIS at Bahrain was reporting some temp that made me ask dispatch to unload 10 tons of cargo. "Standby," was their reply. Five minutes later I was instructed to recheck the ATIS. Laughingly, the mid morning temp had suddenly decreased a couple of degrees.

[hans brinker]

Can their ATIS be trusted?

There's a surprising amount of places where there a big difference between the pilot reported visibility or ceiling being "at minimum" and "riiiiight at minimum".

[BuzzBox]

In the 80's at Gulf Air, one summer morning the ATIS at Bahrain was reporting some temp that made me ask dispatch to unload 10 tons of cargo. "Standby," was their reply. Five minutes later I was instructed to recheck the ATIS. Laughingly, the mid morning temp had suddenly decreased a couple of degrees.

A bit like the good old days at Hong Kong's Kai Tak, where 1 or 2 knots of tailwind could make all the difference for the heavies departing off Rwy 13. ATC would ask what wind they needed to depart and by coincidence that's what the wind became!

[TwoHeadedTroll]

Surprising there is no English language translation of the Chinese update 10th June, despite it basically being no information: 民航局介绍“3·21”东航MU5735航空器飞行事故最新进展 (yicai.com) (https://www.yicai.com/news/101439649.html)

‎At the meeting, Dong Zhiyi, deputy director of the Civil Aviation Administration of China, said that after the "3.21" China Eastern Airlines MU5735 aircraft flight accident, in accordance with the relevant laws and regulations of China and the relevant provisions of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, the Civil Aviation Administration of China launched the technical investigation of the accident, and on April 20, the preliminary report and information circular of the accident investigation were announced to the public. At present, the accident investigation department is strictly following the investigation procedures and is still continuing to carry out in-depth wreckage and data evidence inspection, flight data analysis, experimental verification and other related work. Subsequently, with the advancement of the investigation work, the Civil Aviation Administration will release the progress and relevant information of the technical investigation of the accident in a timely and accurate manner in accordance with laws and regulations.‎ - Google Translate

[A0283]

"Surprising there is no English language translation of the Chinese update 10th June, despite ..."

The consequence of not giving an english translation next to the national language (either an official ICAO language or not) is that thousands of professionals in the aerospace community are forced to get their own translations or give up. This will only lead to confusion, next to the normal interpretation discussions that you will already have with a formal translation. Making your own translations can be very time consuming, introduces translation and (serious) interpretation errors, and will reduce the time available for other safety work. I don't think it is an exaggeration to say that this is a systemic safety weakness in the global system.

A good translation has access to the actual investigation.

[Lake1952]

Is there anything else expected on this, or are we essentially finished with this event except for the eventual formal report? Deliberate act, nothing more to learn?

[A0283]

Is there anything else expected on this, or are we essentially finished with this event except for the eventual formal report? Deliberate act, nothing more to learn?

China has promised full compliance with international law. Which means a proper and good report. So prelim after 30 days with factual information, annual updates with more factual information and preliminary analysis … And a final complete report with full analysis, conclusions and recommendations. Until that sequence finishes everything is open. So who said it was a deliberate act? No report or a flimsy report would constitute a serious loss of face I am told.

[phylosocopter]

Is there anything else expected on this, or are we essentially finished with this event except for the eventual formal report? Deliberate act, nothing more to learn?
I can only hope that you are never in command of a passenger aircraft !

[Boeingdriver999]

I can only hope that you are never in command of a passenger aircraft !

Lol; good to see the classic "I don't like your viewpoint on the internet so you're basically a danger to aviation and others"

From where I sit in China the rumour is that the entire investigation so far has been thrown out the window as the results don't make the party happy so the entire investigation is being restarted with fresh, keen faces eager to please.

[Lake1952]

Indeed, I haven't a clue as to where phylocopter is coming from with that remark. I asked a simple question after noting over a month without so much as a mention of this accident.

[dr dre]

Lol; good to see the classic "I don't like your viewpoint on the internet so you're basically a danger to aviation and others"

From where I sit in China the rumour is that the entire investigation so far has been thrown out the window as the results don't make the party happy so the entire investigation is being restarted with fresh, keen faces eager to please.

The NTSB has looked at the recorders. Someone who isn’t connected to the Chinese government knows what happened. If the Chinese aren’t telling the truth about the incident I’m sure the information will be “unofficially” leaked to the press in some fashion.

[swh]

China has promised full compliance with international law. Which means a proper and good report. So prelim after 30 days with factual information, annual updates with more factual information and preliminary analysis … And a final complete report with full analysis, conclusions and recommendations. Until that sequence finishes everything is open. So who said it was a deliberate act? No report or a flimsy report would constitute a serious loss of face I am told.

No requirement for the various reports to be made public, they only need to submit to icao. That is what happened to the prelim report.

[epc]

The NTSB has looked at the recorders. Someone who isn’t connected to the Chinese government knows what happened. If the Chinese aren’t telling the truth about the incident I’m sure the information will be “unofficially” leaked to the press in some fashion.

China knows this, but there is a timing problem. Later this year the 20th Congress of the Chinese Communist Party is to be held, where it is expected that Xi will be elected to the 3rd term, breaking serious party and political precedents and going against considerable internal party opposition. Negative news will not be released ahead of the party congress to avoid marring the occasion.

[Equivocal]

No requirement for the various reports to be made public, they only need to submit to icao. Huh? Where does this come from?

[Turkey Brain]

Just another suicide then !

Like many interested persons, whether a professional pilot, doctor, paying customer, accident investigator, airplane manufacturer, airline operator or politician , to name a few.

I have skin in the game, I have posted here and spoken to anyone patient enough to give me the time of day.

I have been moderated off a few times when my opinion isn’t as desired. I understand moderators have a difficult job, apparent criticising of the dead and liable all come into play.

So my beef isn’t the 100 % truth to any accident investigation, there is always grey. A lot of factors and detail.

The official report into the German Wings crash of 24 Mar 2015 is worth a thorough read by any person interested in flying safety. Especially pilots and doctors. Everything is there in black and white, a very well written and thought out report.

So the problem is nothing has changed re: pilot suicide.

Depending on your point of view there have been say 6 pilot suicides of commercial airliners, with large loss of life.


If the crash happens to occur in the country of the operating airline, the “ conclusions “ of the report are wishy washy.

Boeing and Airbus know exactly what happened, but obviously they want to keep selling airplanes to these operators.


So they play stumb ( stupid and dumb )

So my beef is prevention, or the lack of action on prevention !


There were many warnings in the behaviour of some of the pilots if not all in previous crashes caused by “ deliberate “ crew action.



I have tried to push this issue with people above me, the standard reply “ oh it’s so rare, we have other priorities! “

We’ll a 1,000 dead people or so isn’t an insignificant amount.


As the manufactures improve aircraft design and the pilots and the airlines get there act together for safer operations, ATC, met, security at airports etc etc

Crashing of modern airliners has gone from 1 or 2 a week in the 1960s to 1 or 2 a year recently.

With a lot more flying, a lot more flying ! But we now have the locked door policy which I’m not so sure is always a benefit!


So the very rare pilot suicide is now becoming a highly significant factor as planes don’t so much crash these days. ( conveniently shoot downs other “ external “ factors are not included in most statistics, another area of concern for me ! )

So back to the topic of preventing pilot suicide.

It’s not difficult, all the work has been done. All we need is to accept that pilots are human beings and have formal and informal procedures to follow.

Just like, aviation weather or and aircraft’s technical status, we need to assess another area of risk.

There are other industries where this is formally looked at and dealt with on a day to day basis.

All the aviation industry needs to do is find a system that works.

But first we have to accept the reality of the situation.

Sweeping the risk the risk under the carpet is no longer acceptable .

We just need to deal with it .

Hand wringing after the next “ tragic unforeseen possible pilot suicide, unexplained very strange crash “ isn’t acceptable.

Many aviation professionals claim to be “ proactive “ with safety, total ball****, it has always been reactive.

Look at any crash report, from Kegworth to 737 Max.


“ we need to improve aeroplane design and train the pilots better “

how about some proactive safety ?

The report into the German Wings crash should be required reading for all of us.

To expect a doctor in a 30 min or 1 hour examination once a year to spot a suicide risk is not realistic.

People change their behaviour in exams and also crises in life don’t always happen when it’s time for your annual medical !


So I’m not an expert or qualified in this area but we need a system that can absorb, “ self “ reporting, active airline management ( as opposed to eyes closed management ), “ peer “ reporting , family and friends.

The arbitrator of this information being a mental health professional or someone adequately trained in this area.

As I stated above, there are industries where this already happens.

I haven’t worked in any of these industries, but from what I have heard in casual conversations, people are assessed before work by a series of questions to ascertain their mental health.


Informally we nearly always do this anyway before flights.

“ come in far today, how was your drive ? “

” your a new face, how are you enjoying the job? How is the training ? “

these are all ritual sniffing, but unfortunately if the answers you get are worrisome, we don’t have procedures to act.

Essentially we should have a set of checks in our heads, once someone clearly isn’t “ all together “ today, you are empowered to act.

So time for the standby or a cancellation, which is always difficult to do. The management pressure is always “ what the f*** , what do you mean a cancellation! “

But for safety sometimes someone has to say stop ! As all professional pilots know .

So let’s bite the bullet and adopt a system that accepts pilots are humans, we all need someone sometimes to say.

” Thanks for coming in today, but we think you need a rest ! “

It’s exactly like the weather or an aircraft’s technical status, it’s not rocket science, all the work has been done. We just need a system that has a procedure if there are even “ small “ concerns.

Someone who has training in this area should make the final decision, and definitely not airline management !

[Auxtank]

Just another suicide then !

Sorry, have you heard something/ gained access to recent info?

Otherwise . . .

[ATC Watcher]

Auxtank : +1
Turkey brain :Boeing and Airbus know exactly what happened, but obviously they want to keep selling airplanes to these operators. So they play stumb ( stupid and dumb )
With comments like these you are not going to go very far here....

[T28B]

Turkey Brain, I'll keep this short.
It’s not difficult, all the work has been done. All we need is to accept that pilots are human beings and have formal and informal procedures to follow.
You make a very broad declaration about what "we" should do (as an industry) regarding this very challenging area of risk: pilot mental health and suicide ideation.
The "we" that you refer to, however, includes multiple different base cultures, and multiple different corporate cultures, each of which has norms and assumptions that do not fit into a single box.
"It's not difficult?" Nonsense.
I heartily agree with you that the German Wings accident report is well done and worth a read.
I'll leave it to the general community of PPRuNe professionals to address some of your other assertions, presumptions, statements, and conclusions.

[dixi188]

After the Japan Airlines suicide attempt on a DC-8, I believe they added a line to the dispatcher's check list which basically asked,"Are the crew sane today"?

[Organfreak]

After the Japan Airlines suicide attempt on a DC-8, I believe they added a line to the dispatcher's check list which basically asked, "Are the crew sane today"?

Pardon the cynicism, please, from this SLF, but nowadays, that's a very uncertain question even for ppl we share the road with! We can't know until it's too late.

[dixi188]

Pardon the cynicism, please, from this SLF, but nowadays, that's a very uncertain question even for ppl we share the road with! We can't know until it's too late.
I think it was, "Seen to be doing something", as they couldn't come up with anything else.

[Lonewolf_50]

I think it was, "Seen to be doing something", as they couldn't come up with anything else. It has worked so far, has it not? :E

[Turkey Brain]

I would like to generate some discussion and hopefully action.

1: Recent info , no change to 737 - 800 design, no changes to pilot procedures. From Boeing, the plane responded as commanded .
Maybe someone has knowledge of the airlines rostering procedures, but there’s a chance that the relevant airline now have a tick box exercise,

BOX “ are the crew sane and did we demote a senior pilot who may hold a grudge against everyone ? “

2 : In response, we as an industry have done very well with multiple base cultures and corporate cultures to improve many aspects of safety in maintenance, ATC, weather reporting, aircraft design, pilot training.

So why is mental health still taboo ?

I am playing devils advocate, but really it’s just an area where we need awareness and some “ checks “ to follow or at least a basic awareness of risk. At the moment, all we have is 1 hr with an doctor each year and the hope of self reporting or an aware colleague who feels emboldened to refuse to fly with a colleague. This is a big step and chance of back up from an airline management or a local doctor seems unlikely.

So the only check as hinted at by SLF, ( highly valued customer) is when the plane tent pegs!

There are industries who have done the work and have awareness, I’ll find some references, I hope.

My guess ! any mental health professional given a face to face meeting with any human could probably decide after a fairly brief interview

“ do I trust this person with my family in the next month as the pilot of a plane, with a locked door policy? “

3: It has worked so far, in that no management has been jailed for corporate manslaughter. Hasn’t really helped the more recent victims.

[Turkey Brain]

After a 5 min Google, suicide kills lots of people.

it seems Human Resources best practice is to provide screening and support in all industries, not just industries where a large loss of life can occur !

https://www.nimh.nih.gov/research/research-conducted-at-nimh/asq-toolkit-materials

https://www.ruralhealthinfo.org/toolkits/suicide/2/screening-tools

https://hrdailyadvisor.blr.com/2022/09/09/mental-health-in-the-workplace-world-suicide-prevention-day-2022/

https://hbr.org/2022/01/what-employers-need-to-know-about-suicide-prevention

https://www.nimh.nih.gov/research/research-conducted-at-nimh/asq-toolkit-materials

there are multiple screening tools, this one caught my eye,
20 seconds isn’t really a large commitment of time for an initial assessment.

The procedure however relies on a strategy in place once someone is assessed as needing further screening !

Still cheaper than having a crash !




https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1640x2000/cb33e820_bf99_47bc_bf3c_04ab085f4cc6_d21a90fe6d9a84f3bba2be9 182f8daa043317d4c.jpeg

[PoppaJo]

Some are very good at keeping any mental health issues extremely close to themselves, especially males. Was a male member of my family, late 20s who was having a breakdown behind the scenes, his partner had no idea, employer no idea, nobody else had any idea, we had a day with them only a week prior, I picked up nothing at all.

The moment we all found out was when he didn’t return home from work one day, he left work and checked himself into ER. A few years later now he has turned his life around, well we assume he has.

[Turkey Brain]

Secrecy is an issue, and learning answers to expected questions etc. However, I think it is still worth pursuing a system that allows for at least a way to allow for people who are exhibiting health issues.

At the present their is no effective system.

I’m very pleased to know that the person you mentioned was able to get help, even while hiding their health issues.

[ATC Watcher]

It is not an easy subject and ,there are no easy solutions. If they were, some would have implemented them alsready. After Germanwings we all had a deep look inside our organisations to see if there was something to learn ( a lot ) and something to do ( not much) to prevent a similrar situation to hit us in the future. As I said previously , only a good peer ( not management) supervision, and possibly a good trusted CISM team can help. . The officilal Medical side cannot help you ,as they are bound to confdentiality..
We all had courses to detect alchool and drug abuse and know how to deal with that , i.e. rehab, not punish staff, etc.. but nothing on mental health disorders. As was said here already by many, most can hide it very well , even to their close friends. .

[Turkey Brain]

Thank you for your reply.

But I have to disagree.

It is an easy subject, all we have to decide is “ is my or another’s mental health in an acceptable range ? “


A bit like the introduction to CRM, a bit of a surprise for some of us !

Most people these days are aware of CRM issues, one example working at your natural low, during your WOCL !

CRM is actually used as a tool to assess. Quite a bit of progress/change really.

So we are becoming more self aware of our own failings, being perhaps distracted by emotional events in our lives is also an area where most seem to understand that it affects performance.

So to me it is a less taboo area, especially with maybe more enlightened younger colleagues.

As you said we have had some training on alcohol and drug abuse. Peer support etc, but also a lot of training and guidance.

For example moderate drinking was open to a subjective assessment, so they came up with guidance as to how many alcohol units was moderate and time scales. So some basic training, not just personal guessing. At the time is was needed, the guidance and training, we have come a long way. Now it’s common knowledge to plan your drinking or lack of drinking with facts, not just using guess work.

As to no easy solutions, there are many tools it seems, it’s just we are not familiar with them. So to me it’s just ignorance and institutional blindness.

Aviation is an industry with plenty of rules ! I can see management and the authorities not wanting to create more .

However this is an area, leaving things to chance and ignorance is not acceptable.

Who would not want to have tools in place to prevent the next loss of life. The problem is not going to solve itself, it’s not going to go away on it’s own !

Regarding Doctors and confidentiality as stated in the German Wings report, doctors have a legal obligation to report a patient if they think there is a risk to the lives of others.

I can see the ethical and moral issues of patients not opening up to a doctor if they believe they will be shopped ! Hence the peer support programs.

But for now, the issue is just a simple tool and some back up for those rare situations when someone is operating below par or even a direct threat to the flight.

We need to act. Burying our head in the sand is one option, but it won’t sit well after the next crash !

[1201alarm]

It is an easy subject, all we have to decide is “ is my or another’s mental health in an acceptable range ? “

It is not an easy subject at all.

You can't do that decision with the necessary reliability and correctness, that is the whole issue, and that is why there is realistically not much to do.

Of course people will argue that "even if it saves only one life, it is worth it". But I strongly disagree with that. There is no zero risk life and no zero risk society, and if someone is not prepared to face the extremely low risk of ending in a suicide crash, he can seek other modes of transport. The ramifications of what you advocate on absolutely healthy and spotless crews would be totalitarian.

Aircrew are already the most selected, supervised, checked and tested professional group in the world, but as with everything, there is no 100% in life, never, nowhere. Of course you can seek to improve, but as the Germanwings crash has shown, realistically there was not a lot to do. You can't look into someones brain. That is just how it is. No crew want's to fly with someone suicidal, but it was obviously not possible to spot it in the cases that ended up in a suicide crash.

And by the way: getting rid of the locked cockpit door would immediately bring back the terrorists.

[Clop_Clop]

All in all i don't think this is easy one at all,,, you have people suffering from life issues/ mental conditions of various kinds which is not terribly uncommon i believe. Part of that set are possibly suicidal. And part of the suicidal ones are also capable of doing it while onboard a plane in the air. The last group must be very small. Now if the medical community are unable to accurately identify who belongs in the suicidal group accurately, how can anyone expect anyone else to identify the miniscule subset of that group. The ones that are capable of doing it in the air with people onboard.

[Lonewolf_50]

... there’s a chance that the relevant airline now have a tick box exercise,

BOX “ are the crew sane... How do you measure that: with a dip stick?
It is an easy subject, all we have to decide is “ is my or another’s mental health in an acceptable range ? “ No, it isn't.
I am (due to the policies of my employer) subjected to suicide prevention and awareness training about once per year.
The professionals in that field of mental health would be aghast at your assertion.
About 30 years ago, when I was still in the Navy, there was a burst of suicides among sailors on the West Coast that got the attention of higher command, which led (in our airwing) to a great many hours of meetings, briefings and teachings for the officers and senior NCOs on how to improve our suicide prevention efforts.
Here's a clue for you: that Easy Button that you propose wasn't the approach.
Elements of attempts at successful suicide prevention include (1) get to know your people (2) care about your people (3) know what is going on in their lives, and when they are under stress get them help sooner, not later, and (4) be on a constant lookout for life change events that typically cause stress. In an aviation squadron that kind of approach could be implemented if sufficient emphasis were put on it, but that still was no guarantee (the mental health pros were most emphatic about this) that someone would not slip in under the social safety net radar that one would try and put into place.

The bottom line is NOT that this is an easy subject, but is infact a very complex subject thanks to human nature and human behavior, emotions, etc.

As I've had two members of my extended family take their own lives, and a third attempt it but fail, I find your cavalier attitude toward suicidal tendencies or motivations, and suicide prevention, to be risible.
Now if the medical community are unable to accurately identify who belongs in the suicidal group accurately, how can anyone expect anyone else to identify the miniscule subset of that group. The ones that are capable of doing it in the air with people onboard. Well said. :ok:

[Turkey Brain]

I agree woth most of what you say, actually.

But at the present, we don’t do any risk assessment of mental health.

Obviously it is a rare occurrence when one’s mental health or those we work with is cause for concern.

Not everyone hides or is good at hiding their feelings or worries.

With many of the pilot suicides, there were a lot of big life events before and the warning signs were there for family and colleagues.


On those rare occasions when the mental health is fragile we just need to “ steal , borrow “ a best practice way of handling it.

I don’t even think we need to develop a new system. These risk assessment tools have already been developed.

We have no system in place, I do believe it’s simple.


Most things you have little knowledge about appear complicated at first, so some basic trying wouldn’t go amiss.

A trained brain expert, psychologist would have no problem deciding if someone needed a bit of down time, I’m sure.

Maybe there would be some false positives, but it would be a learning exercise for pilots!

Maybe pilots who showed reasons for concern, if they thought about their personal life before reporting for work would realise having certain life events before work, was not wise. I know you can’t always chose when to have life events !

But you can chose when to work.

Ideally we could get some comments from mental health professionals, not just pilots.

As an aside, the locked door policy does have some disadvantages, once inside any person with malicious intent is protected from the 200 or so humans wanting to live.

An open door gives access to the people who would like to live.

Obviously this is a different subject for discussion, but the locked door policy does have a bearing on the risks of suicidal pilots.

[Turkey Brain]

Apologies Lonewolf 50, I missed your reply before commenting on another post.

Also apologies if my simplistic approach is crass and insensitive. Any training to help others or even recognise issues in oneself should be welcome.

Thank you for your candid comments which make a lot of sense. The action you describe to prevent suicides is sorely missing in some big airlines, I.e. getting to know your staff.

It’s interesting to know that you had training on suicide prevention, but still believe it’s very difficult to prevent.

” Maybe “ in the 30 years since the experts have developed a better understanding of suicide risk and prevention.

I too have experienced a wave of suicides amongst colleagues, the common factor at the time seemed to be an sudden increase in work and at the same time less down time to unwind and recover.

However with your training at least you were given an insight into risk factors and an appreciation of the fact that suicide does happen.
So hopefully you were better able to help someone if you became aware of risks in their life.

So yes there is no simple test, but some basic training and a recognised path to a trained mental health expert for those rare occasions wouldn’t go amiss.

Most of the comments and attitudes seem to be, let’s maintain the status quo. I know we are resistant to change as a group and change for changes sake is definitely not wanted.

However there is a problem = humans commit suicide.

We are doing nothing = indefensible

As stated in the German Wings report, it is very difficult for doctors to assess the Suicide risk on a limited medical, however working colleagues tend to have very close working relationships over extended periods of time.

So to give the co workers some basic awareness of suicide prevention and risks would make sense and cost very little time and effort.

And it may help someone in need.

So why the resistance to a small change?

[megan]

Originally Posted by Clop_Clop
Now if the medical community are unable to accurately identify who belongs in the suicidal group accurately, how can anyone expect anyone else to identify the miniscule subset of that group. The ones that are capable of doing it in the air with people onboard.As said previously, well said.

Had an airborne incident where I for a very brief moment didn't know whether I, copilot and pax were about to meet our maker, fortunately due in no small part to good training we came through unscathed.

That night Spouse and I attended a BBQ and a beer was quite unsettling on the stomach, the first sign of what was to come, the following two days were time off and spouse later said I kept taking showers, not aware of it personally as this conversation took place much, much later. Flying entered an ultra cautious mode, wouldn't allow copilots to fly, CP called me in and said you have to let them fly. Kept going to the GP with odd complaints, can't recall the nature of them now as this all occurred nearly three decades ago, but GP was unable to put a finger on the underlying problem. After eighteen months of this I reached a place where I could understand why people take their own lives, it was not something I personally saw as a viable option, but I did reach such a point of despair that I asked my good Lady to get me to the hospital ASAP where they bombed me out. Four months or so off work and happily returned to the cockpit for another eight years or so of gainful employment before reaching mandatory retirement age.

Diagnosis? PTSD triggered by the inflight event. What I was unable to understand was how an engine failure could so bring about the personal reaction it did where Vietnam events I had I just passed off as another day at the office. It was explained that each event is a thimble full of water placed in a glass, you eventually reach a stage where one thimble full more causes the glass to overflow. Bingo.

The take away lesson though is I worked in a small group of about twenty crews who had an extremely close working relationship and no one ever said "are you OK", though it must have been blatantly obvious I wasn't, nor did the GP, a long time family doctor, recognise what might be going on.

My take away from the experience is the extreme difficulty people have in asking "are you OK" and the difficulty the medical practitioners have in determining mental state. PTSD may be a sub set of the mental condition but it has lead to many suicides in our military cadre post conflict.

Captain of QF 72 was an ex fighter chap and retired early with PTSD following his out of control A330 event, I recommend counseling for any crew who has the misfortune to face such pulse raising events, what ever the cause.

Take care of each other and have the gumption to ask "are you OK".

[Nadar]

While I agree that accurately evaluating somebody's suicide risk is probably very hard, if not impossible, I think focusing on it is somewhat misguided when it comes to saving the lives of others.

Crashing a passenger airplane on purpose isn't suicide, it's "mass murder-suicide". It's my assertion that a very, very small part of the population is capable of doing this, regardless of how suicidal they might be at the time. I've been through some suicide attempts myself, and have thought about it many more times. At no point have I even remotely considered doing something that would risk hurting others in the process. I believe this is true for most people.

Suicide by car isn't that uncommon where I live. While that will always put others at some risk, most people will choose to run into a stone or concrete wall, a tunnel opening or similar, at high speed when there's little other traffic. Some opt to crash into an oncoming truck, and while I find that extremely selfish, the thinking is without doubt still that the drivers of the trucks are mostly "fine" (as long as you disregard the PTSD they suffer from it). I don't think I'm aware of a single "suicide by car" incidents that has involved crashing into an oncoming car. You could argue that also has to do with the fact that death is seen as "more certain" when you crash with an oncoming truck, but regardless. Compared to the total number of suicides, "suicide by car" is also a very small fraction.

I think that if some kind of filtering should be done as to who should be allowed to pilot planes in this regard, the focus should be on weeding out the very few that, if suicidal for some reason, are potentially willing to murder a lot of other people in the process. You have to be pretty self-centered and without empathy to be able to even consider murdering others just because you yourself can't take it anymore.

[Winemaker]

You have to be pretty self-centered and without empathy to be able to even consider murdering others just because you yourself can't take it anymore.
Unfortunately here in the U.S. we see, at an all too common rate, shooters kill innocents and then themselves, so the empathy factor can be missing. I post this with no intent of diminishing your profound comments.

[Turkey Brain]

https://news.cgtn.com/news/2023-03-21/Probe-into-China-Eastern-Airlines-flight-MU5735-crash-continuing-CAAC-1ilH1qzl3sA/index.html

[CharlesShi]

Didn't read all the posts carefully.
But has everyone reached this consensus—this is a man-made suicide accident, and it was deliberately covered up by the authorities?
P.s. Will such views get my account blocked here?：哎哟：



What will get your account moderated is admitting to not reading the Thread before posting.

Please do so before joining in a lengthy and year old discussion 🤔

Senior Pilot

[CharlesShi]

Senior Pilot： Thanks for your humour and understand mine.

[CharlesShi]

The problem is that the people inside or outside of aviation aspect might have already acepted the "investigation was not yet finished", or NEVER! Then every body can slowly forget it.

[olster]

Firstly let’s just get something clear: while any person, pilot or not that commits suicide, it is undoubtedly sad, distressing for those close and the end of the road of depression and unhappiness. However, taking a plane load of passengers such as the lunatic at the helm of German wings and others allegedly did takes us into a whole new level of sociopathic criminality. These people are murderers. I am sympathetic to mental health issues and goodness knows the airline pilot life can be stressful but innocent airline customers deserve the most robust and resilient operators at the sharp end. Airline programmers focusing on mental health awareness are praiseworthy but sorting out the narcissistic types who wants ‘to make a statement’ as a product of their mental illness should be a primary goal. I appreciate that this level of mental instability is fortunately very rare but the innocent victims, women and children should be the primary consideration.

[deja vu]

So Megan, was your airborne incident investigated and your reaction to it professionally assessed by aviation medicos.

Have to wonder was it the right thing going back for your final 8 years.

[Turkey Brain]

Didn't read all the posts carefully.
But has everyone reached this consensus—this is a man-made suicide accident, and it was deliberately covered up by the authorities?
P.s. Will such views get my account blocked here?：哎哟：



What will get your account moderated is admitting to not reading the Thread before posting.

Please do so before joining in a lengthy and year old discussion 🤔

Senior Pilot


Boeing stated the plane flew as commanded

No airworthiness directives for the 737 relating to this crash
No changes to pilots training after this 737 crash
No comments on bad weather etc

The authorities continue to investigate as they say “ it’s complicated “

looking at data posted online.

The plane is commanded to roll left, it rolls through the inverted and enters cloud very quickly, making recovery a bit more tricky, as you have to use instruments and ignore your senses. The plane loses height and the speed builds up all the time it is still rolling. The plane appears to be trimmed for positive g flight, going faster and faster pulling more and more g,. It continues to roll and achieves maybe 45 degrees down and speeds near Mach 1. Lower down in the atmosphere and after having flown well past it’s max structural speeds the plane seems to regain some control in roll and gains a little height. However the speed bleeds away and the nose of the plane drops.

Note, Boeing say the plane flew as commanded. ( or a very similar turn of phrase ) so with no airworthiness directives about autopliots etc.

It seems the pilots or a pilot commander a roll, that led them to enter cloud in a spiral dice, either intentionally or inadvertently.

Either way it appears a pilot or the pilots tried their best to recover from the situation, however the plane was so damaged from the high speed and high g dive that recovery was not possible. ( A combination of missing/ broken parts of the airframe and plastic deformation of the airframe.)

Totally tragic.

a possible learning point;

maybe demoting your most senior Captain and putting him in the right hand seat next to a new up and coming Captain was not an ideal crew composition for harmony.

[megan]

So Megan, was your airborne incident investigated and your reaction to it professionally assessed by aviation medicosNoHave to wonder was it the right thing going back for your final 8 yearsAbsolutely yes, getting back on the horse and all that, always enjoyed the hell out of the job, right to the final day. Getting over PTSD in my case was no different to getting over a broken leg, you just need expert attention.

[Oemlegoem]

Today is the 2 year anniversary of the crash. Is there any further or final report from the Chinese authorities?

[ETOPS]

Yes - see this thread…

https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/658279-china-eastern-flight-mu-5735-crash-march-2022-a.html

[Lonewolf_50]

Boeing stated the plane flew as commanded

No airworthiness directives for the 737 relating to this crash
No changes to pilots training after this 737 crash
No comments on bad weather etc

The authorities continue to investigate as they say “ it’s complicated “ "The Authorities" are the Chinese government.
You can assume that they are not being truthful, as they wish to avoid loss of face.
Welcome to the real world.

[Fly3]

A320 Glider (https://www.pprune.org/members/507062-a320-glider)
That is poor reasoning. All it might have needed, if indeed it was a pressurisation failure, is for the aircraft to perhaps hit a bit of turbulence, or for the defective part just reached its limit and give out, and that could happen anywhere in flight.