BA Euroflyer

[USERNAME_]

Since it’s a separate airline, I guess, like CF it warrants its own thread.

Aside from them being granted their AOC earlier this month, and their huge recruitment campaign, it all seems fairly quiet.

Any more ideas on aircraft? Jethros seems to reckon there are some wet leased EC registered aircraft on their way.

Doesnt seem to be any “official” Euroflyer recognition yet, booking BA flights from LGW for the summer doesn’t offer up any kind of “Operated by BA Euroflyer” notes.

[vectisman]

Operations begin on Tuesday 29th March with 3 based aircraft initially ramping up to 18 by end of May. I know there is a BA press event in the BA lounge on March 29th in the South Terminal. Flights to 9 winter destinations were released late January with hopefully more to come soon.

[fjencl]

Somebody did mention a while back that Smart Lynx aircraft will be used on a wet lease for BA Euroflyer, not sure if this is happening, or indeed how many
aircraft were coming over from Smart Lynx to be used at LGW.

[vectisman]

BA have enough aircraft. It’s just taking a while to get all the crews trained for Mainline, Euroflyer and indeed Cityflyer. After two years of the pandemic it will take a while to get everything up and running. Hence some short term wet leases may be possible. The main shortage is more cabin crew than pilots.
I am confident that the inaugurals for Euroflyer will use BA aircraft especially with all the press covering the event.
TUI, Jet 2 are also having to lease in planes to cope with demand and training issues.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Operations begin on Tuesday 29th March with 3 based aircraft initially ramping up to 18 by end of May. I know there is a BA press event in the BA lounge on March 29th in the South Terminal. Flights to 9 winter destinations were released late January with hopefully more to come soon.
Not quite, that's BA mainline I believe, on behalf of new loco. Do they even have an ICAO code and callsign yet?

[vectisman]

The AOC was granted earlier this month. Hopefully more will become clear on the weeks ahead.

[ollie135]

I am surprised at the number of airliens supposedly wet leasing from questionable p2f (depending on your definitions of queationable and p2f) airlines such as smartlynx, if only the customers knew who they had in charge of their safety

[USERNAME_]

I was under the impression that the G-GATx aircraft currently operating from LHR would be returning “home” to fly for Euroflyer.

They’ve had trained cabin crew sat around since January, and near weekly training courses this month and next, so hopefully no wet leasing will be required if they are starting with just 3 aircraft.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I think the issue is lack of flight deck crew. The terms and conditions are the worst in the group (again) as well as simulator time to get folk back up to speed as the business ramps up. Just look at the operational chaos on the ground at T5 today to see how badly affected airlines are when staff leave and can't be replace at the drop of a hat.

Only 6/10 G-GAT* A320s have been kept active, the other 4 have been long term stored. Indeed of those 6, 2 are recent returns.

[vectisman]

They have the flight crew but it is correct to say that it is taking time to complete all necessary training.

[vectisman]

As Skipness alludes to above, at the moment BA has more of a problem building operational resilience at Heathrow over the weekends. At the moment lack of ground staff is causing issues. This partly due to Covid absence but also simply staff shortages.

[vectisman]

The situation on the ground at Gatwick is better at the moment. Gatwick Ground Services (BA Ground Handling Subsidiary)have been pro-active in recruiting since last November/December in readiness for Summer 2022. Admittedly the BA long haul operation is far smaller than the LHR but it seems to be running smoothly.
I think companies of all types at Gatwick have been able to recruit fairly successfully as the surrounding area was badly affected by the impact of Covid on employment. Recent job fairs were also well attended.

[cavokblues]

What would they say at a press conference launching the 'new' carrier?

Welcome to our exact same service, to the exact same destinations, by aircraft in the same colours, with same staff in the same uniform albeit we now pay them considerably less and this is all provided by our terrible IT system which we've neglected for a decade?

[vectisman]

It is probably more likely to publicise the resumption of short haul services from Gatwick and the re-opening of the lounges.
Personally, and I am beyond caring what others may think, I hope the resumption of short haul from Gatwick is a success for the all the staff involved.

[cavokblues]

So do I! I just think they used the covid pandemic as an excuse to cut T&Cs rather than address the real issues.

I think Gatwick's ops suffered because of the legacy of the 'Cruz' missile and his misguided actions whilst in charge.

[USERNAME_]

CC hired on cheaper contracts, however still unionised with BASSA, so I think it’s safe to assume the contracts won’t get any worse, or might even improve slightly as time goes on.

EDIT: Hired through an agency though, might I add.

[vectisman]

British Airways hire both directly and through recruitment agencies but once recruited they are BA employees.
For example, all BA Euroflyer jobs were advertised on the BA Careers pages and also with the aviation recruitment agency One Resourcing.
I know Gatwick Ground Services also use One Resourcing.

[vectisman]

cavokblues (https://www.pprune.org/members/504507-cavokblues), I believe that Gatwick short haul operations were cut back in 2020 partly due to travel restrictions but mainly to protect Heathrow slots.
Thankfully it has been recognised that they do need to have a presence at Gatwick to stop some of the competition having it all their own way and also because Heathrow
will once again become slot restricted in the future. Gatwick is also a cheaper airport to operate from with leisure and VFR traffic being more price sensitive. Premium Economy and Club Europe
cabins do well on most routes. And, before anyway says, those sales are not all seat redemptions either!
Hopefully, as travel returns to greater normality, the BA Euroflyer network will be expanded. I would even like to see some more domestics returning. I simply don't believe the Edinburgh route, for example,
couldn't support a couple of flights a day, even post Covid. We shall have to wait and see. Interesting times ahead hopefully!
Developments will also depend on how much operational freedom BA Euroflyer is really allowed.

[HOVIS]

Is there any news on who will be operating the domestic flights? Last I heard, mainline were going to restart LGW-MAN & GLA.

[USERNAME_]

Is there any news on who will be operating the domestic flights? Last I heard, mainline were going to restart LGW-MAN & GLA.

Looking at the schedule, the flights are operated out of MAN and GLA so I would assume it’s mainline using nightstopping LHR crew.

[HOVIS]

USERNAME.
Thanks. 👍

[vectisman]

Mainline will operate Glasgow and Manchester daily flights mainly for long haul connections but domestic sectors can be booked. Aircraft operate MAN-LGW-MAN-LHR and
GLAS-LGW-GLAS-LHR I think. Glasgow is already operating, Manchester begins next Sunday.

[22/04]

Callsign Eurobird? ( not really serious)

[vectisman]

I suspect the callsign will simply be 'Euroflyer.'

[Flyingsince99]

With crew in training now, and crew already qualified, I wonder what will happen to them.

Since the initial operation is going to take place with mainline and wet leased aircraft, and Euroflyer not “officially” taking over until Autumn 22, how will this work for the crew already employed by Euroflyer?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I suspect the callsign will simply be 'Euroflyer.'
Way too close to "Flyer" BA/CFE at London City. It might even be "Speedbird", GSS got to use that as well as Mainline.

I mean given how quickly leisure is coming back, BALPA must be kicking themselves. The notion that BA would actually have closed LGW short haul and walked away was a negotiating tactic which has opened the door to all new A320 expansion bypassing mainline BA. And why not operate LGW-xyz-LHR-xyz-LGW on a "W" pattern, they've opened the door wide open....

The notion that "LGW short haul never made money" after years of claiming the opposite just shows what a shower of chancers there are at Waterworld.

The ONLY reason MAN-LGW is coming back at all is to feed LGW-ISB, which will last as long as it takes for PIA to be allowed back into the UK.

[Richard Taylor]

Can't they use Cityflyer for LCY, & Euroflyer for LGW? Or is that too obvious? Assuming no-one else already uses Cityflyer somewhere?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Can't they use Cityflyer for LCY, & Euroflyer for LGW? Or is that too obvious? Assuming no-one else already uses Cityflyer somewhere?
ATC wouldn't be happy at the high % of callsign confusion in London airspace with two incredibly similar callsigns across two different companies, albeit both BA.

[Vokes55]

The ONLY reason MAN-LGW is coming back at all is to feed LGW-ISB, which will last as long as it takes for PIA to be allowed back into the UK.

As has been mentioned many times, BA don’t care a jot what PIA does. You seem to be obsessed with direct flights, whether it’s Bangkok, Pakistan or wherever. The majority of U.K.-Pak traffic is funnelled through the Middle East and is painfully low yielding. LGW-ISB will be around until they have a better, more reliable income source for the aircraft.

Whether MAN-LGW remains will probably depend on how much traffic they get connecting onto the Caribbean/Florida routes.

Back in the day MAN-LGW was simply a crew shuttle for the vast amount of charter operators that would have their two largest bases in LGW and MAN with W-patterns everywhere. Unfortunately the new schedule is of little use for crew positioning, particularly southbound. And of course, most of those operators and W-patterns have long since gone.

[USERNAME_]

With crew in training now, and crew already qualified, I wonder what will happen to them.

Since the initial operation is going to take place with mainline and wet leased aircraft, and Euroflyer not “officially” taking over until Autumn 22, how will this work for the crew already employed by Euroflyer?

I understand your question, I too am curious. But they won’t be just sitting around until August.
They will probably just work alongside the mainline crew, or just crew Euroflyer aircraft and work alongside the others until EF is ready to fully “takeover”.

[vectisman]

I believe Euroflyer crews will be operating from next week. They may have to wet lease with the initial ramp up of services in May or maybe not.
I believe the AOC was granted a few days ago. It will become clearer next week. You can rest assured no crew will be sitting around until August.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

LGW-ISB will be around until they have a better, more reliable income source for the aircraft.
Which to state the obvious, will be the very day the flag carrier of Pakistan returns to market and what traffic BA currently had, reverts to tribal loyalties! Am not arguing for the sake of arguing, it's not as if this hasn't happened before!

[Vokes55]

Which to state the obvious, will be the very day the flag carrier of Pakistan returns to market and what traffic BA currently had, reverts to tribal loyalties! Am not arguing for the sake of arguing, it's not as if this hasn't happened before!

I’d say it’s more likely to be the very day that Virgin comes off the route (which may well be the day that PIA returns). BA’s obsession with home grown competitors will keep their hat in that particular ring. However the fact they’re willing to move it to LGW just to keep the route on the highest density aircraft shows how little interest BA have in ISB and how poor the yields are. Made even worse now of course by the closure of more direct routings through Afghanistan and now Russia.

MAN-LGW will remain as long as Virgin offer MAN-ISB, unless it miraculously generates a load of MAN-LGW-Carib/FL demand. A shame really, especially as “direct” trains from Gatwick to Manchester have since ceased too.

[vectisman]

Just a thought but maybe the general British Airways discussion should be on the British Airways thread, leaving this one for BA Euroflyer news and views.

[USERNAME_]

Liftoff this morning, with GATM to LCA and GATU to AMS

[Charley B]

Speedbird callsign being used on the AMS to LGW as I type

[canadairjet900]

I am wondering what salary conditions will have euroflyer captains. Does anyone has any idea?
Thank you.

[USERNAME_]

Interesting to see that the morning AMS inbound pax are almost all connecting onto Florida, Caribbean and the Canaries.

A quick look at a dummy booking AMS-MCO and BA consistently comes out on top with a considerable price difference via LGW.

[SWBKCB]

Interesting to see that the morning AMS inbound pax are almost all connecting onto Florida, Caribbean and the Canaries.

A quick look at a dummy booking AMS-MCO and BA consistently comes out on top with a considerable price difference via LGW.

Ironic that the rest of the country is flying to AMS for onward connections...

[Wycombe]

Ironic that the rest of the country is flying to AMS for onward connections...

Aside from VIR, BAW and EUK from the UK, the only other european airlines flying into MCO are DLH, EIN and ICE (via KEF)

Seems to be a gap for KLM when you consider the size of their US and Carribean network out of AMS

[AirportPlanner1]

Back in the ‘90s KLM was one of the few non-UK airlines into Orlando from Europe. Icelandair I think were the only other regular

[Buster the Bear]

Back in the ‘90s KLM was one of the few non-UK airlines into Orlando from Europe. Icelandair I think were the only other regular

I think you'll find Richard Branson might object to that. You could also buy seat only on the many charters from UK airports. Maybe it was a typo and you meant 1980s?

[AirportPlanner1]

I think you'll find Richard Branson might object to that. You could also buy seat only on the many charters from UK airports. Maybe it was a typo and you meant 1980s?

Maybe you could read what I wrote before posting?

[USERNAME_]

Izmir appears to be not bookable on BA.com. Is this operated on someone else’s behalf?

[vectisman]

Izmir appears to be not bookable on BA.com. Is this operated on someone else’s behalf?
Izmir is a weekly holiday charter flight operated by BA Euroflyer for a holiday company. They are also operating weekly charters to Preveza in Greece
and to Kalamata in Greece. BA charter flights from Gatwick tend to have flight numbers BA82xx but can vary.

[USERNAME_]

Huge exodus of cabin crew, over 20 resignations in the last week, most citing pay and roster/conditions.

Something needs to change very quickly!

[USERNAME_]

Up to 26 Cabin Crew resignations now since January 1st, including the cabin crew manager. Things really not looking amazing for the Summer, but an email distributed to CC over the weekend from the Union hopefully means things are heading in the right direction.

[787Heaven]

It’s a shame things are still not great at EuroFlyer, for me it was all a bit too much in the end. No work life balance. I really hope things get better for the crew. They are a nice bunch of people, some very experienced crew that hopefully will get the recognition and pay they deserve.

[USERNAME_]

It’s a shame things are still not great at EuroFlyer, for me it was all a bit too much in the end. No work life balance. I really hope things get better for the crew. They are a nice bunch of people, some very experienced crew that hopefully will get the recognition and pay they deserve.

Agree with everything you say. Unfortunately it continues. The “meeting” that took place yesterday shows we are HUGELY undercrewed, and that rosters going forward into March and April will only get worse before they get better.
I’m not sure how the current 6/2 pattern with 7 minimum days off per month can get any worse.

[vectisman]

USERNAME
Whilst I do not disbelieve what you are saying, what exactly are the issues that you say are causing issues with recruitment and retention?

I have been doing some research and Euroflyer salary levels compare well to those of EasyJet at Gatwick.
EasyJet say £22000 with allowances. BA Euroflyer £25000 with allowances. Obviously more for Senior. Crew (£30000 I believe).

Both airlines are point to point. Easyjet only has about 3 night-stopping aircraft away from the Gatwick base daily. Other early morning arrivals are operated by EasyJet Europe. BA Euroflyer make it quite clear in their adverts that Gatwick is a point to point base. Therefore limited scope for time overseas. Some crew I know actually like the idea of being able to be back home with families and friends etc...

Discounted staff travel BA systemwide is also available. Surely people do their research before applying for these cabin crew roles and understand that BA Euroflyer is a subsidiary just like BA CityFlyer.

When you say 'HUGELY undercrewed, and that rosters going forward into March and April will only get worse before they get better.', does that mean new cabin crew are being trained and due to be available as the year progresses? I follow the Gatwick schedules very closely and there have been hardly any cancellations at all in the past few months. So what is going on? I am getting different and in some cases opposing views from people within.

The cynical part of me is aware that a number of people were opposed to the idea of BA Euroflyer full stop and may like to see it have difficulties. However, I have to believe what you are saying because you seem well informed. I'm just curious about what the real issues are.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Surely people do their research before applying for these cabin crew roles and understand that BA Euroflyer is a subsidiary just like BA CityFlyer.
They aim to hire teenagers or early 20s, so likely no. They sell themselves as an exciting new addition to British Airways when the reality seems to be they're easyJet with next to zero nightstops, except EZY do short haul point much better. Selling the company as exotic BA when the reality is really Ryanair seems to be making people wake up to the reality post hiring. Never ideal, and no axe to grind, just been a BA Gatwick customer since 1993 and they've never managed to make short haul work consistently well in thirty years.....

[USERNAME_]

USERNAME
Whilst I do not disbelieve what you are saying, what exactly are the issues that you say are causing issues with recruitment and retention?

I have been doing some research and Euroflyer salary levels compare well to those of EasyJet at Gatwick.
EasyJet say £22000 with allowances. BA Euroflyer £25000 with allowances. Obviously more for Senior. Crew (£30000 I believe).

Both airlines are point to point. Easyjet only has about 3 night-stopping aircraft away from the Gatwick base daily. Other early morning arrivals are operated by EasyJet Europe. BA Euroflyer make it quite clear in their adverts that Gatwick is a point to point base. Therefore limited scope for time overseas. Some crew I know actually like the idea of being able to be back home with families and friends etc...

Discounted staff travel BA systemwide is also available. Surely people do their research before applying for these cabin crew roles and understand that BA Euroflyer is a subsidiary just like BA CityFlyer.

When you say 'HUGELY undercrewed, and that rosters going forward into March and April will only get worse before they get better.', does that mean new cabin crew are being trained and due to be available as the year progresses? I follow the Gatwick schedules very closely and there have been hardly any cancellations at all in the past few months. So what is going on? I am getting different and in some cases opposing views from people within.

The cynical part of me is aware that a number of people were opposed to the idea of BA Euroflyer full stop and may like to see it have difficulties. However, I have to believe what you are saying because you seem well informed. I'm just curious about what the real issues are.

I understand you being cynical. I’m not against Euroflyer at all, I want to see us so well, I wouldn’t have stuck it out so long otherwise. Every flight for the last 9 months have been crew reassuring each other that “it will get better, it’s just new”, only to be met with silence from management and a painful lack of change other than a slight pay increase to match the cost of living.
Firstly, salary isn’t the issue. There are no complaints about salary. There were when the operation started, but these were addressed at the end of Summer 22, it’s not amazing, but we can get by without struggling.
You’re correct, there are no nightstops, other than unplanned/tech night stops, the advert does promote “returning home every night”. However, the roster is the key problem. There and backs or not, 6 in a row throws the whole work-life balance argument out of the window. For example, I started my run of 6 with an ACE, followed by AMS BOD 4 sectors, TFS, GNB, an airport standby which led me onto a DBV, and finally a GVA GVA 4 sector day. My 2 days off are wholly dedicated to catching up on sleep, for my next 6 days.
Also remember, many of these flight are completely full, on a 319 with 3 crew, it’s a high workload and incredibly tiring, and remember here at Euroflyer, there is no “trigger” for an extra crew member like at Heathrow.
There is no time for family or friends, nor to utilise the famous BA staff travel.
Granted, the staff travel is amazing, but can only be used on annual leave, the weekend trips and city breaks they advertise are nonsense, you just don’t have the time.

Again, you’re correct. Barely any cancellations, and for the most part, few crew related delays. Heathrow crew are currently in Gatwick topping us up, which is the main reason.

There are also a ridiculous amount of resignations, and crew currently working notice periods to head off to Norse, Easy and TUI, many others just to quit flying full stop. Add to this, the fact we have around 50 or 60 crew sat at home awaiting their Gatwick ID, some of whom have been waiting for months, our numbers are certainly inflated.

We’ve also now got our own AOC, which many aren’t “trained” for, conversion courses are regularly planned, only to be changed to flights after roster release, meaning those trained are getting a really hard time.

If your differing opinion is from flight crew, then it’s understandable, they have a pretty good gig here, and whilst their sympathy for us is high, there is of course nothing they can do to help other than offer us food from their crew meals….

[vectisman]

Many thanks for your detailed and informative response. I really hope those issues are resolved for you all soon. Keep with it. Best wishes.

[vectisman]

Hopefully ,you can get out of the vicious circle of crew leaving which means tougher rosters. If more stay hopefully it will get easier over time. Its persuading them them that is light at the end of the tunnel and that needs to come more positively
from the management. Hopefully when BA Euroflyer gets to be all A320/A321 this 3 cabin crew nonsense will have to end.

[euromanxdude]

I was recently made redundant from a certain carrier almost 2.5 weeks ago.
One of the first things I did was look to see if BA were hiring. Seen it was only Euro & Cityflyer.
Applied for Cabin Manager, got through to the online assessment but sadly didn’t pass that ( been a SCCM since 2010) - putting it down to lack of sleep/ stress you get when made redundant- and also being bit dense 😂
I did feel deflated though that I wasn’t good enough.
Do genuinely hope it starts getting better for the folks there.

[nguba]

I’ve had very good crews on BA short haul from Gatwick in recent months so I hope things get better and stabilise for you all soon.

[Cazza_fly]

I understand you being cynical. I’m not against Euroflyer at all, I want to see us so well, I wouldn’t have stuck it out so long otherwise. Every flight for the last 9 months have been crew reassuring each other that “it will get better, it’s just new”, only to be met with silence from management and a painful lack of change other than a slight pay increase to match the cost of living.
Firstly, salary isn’t the issue. There are no complaints about salary. There were when the operation started, but these were addressed at the end of Summer 22, it’s not amazing, but we can get by without struggling.
You’re correct, there are no nightstops, other than unplanned/tech night stops, the advert does promote “returning home every night”. However, the roster is the key problem. There and backs or not, 6 in a row throws the whole work-life balance argument out of the window. For example, I started my run of 6 with an ACE, followed by AMS BOD 4 sectors, TFS, GNB, an airport standby which led me onto a DBV, and finally a GVA GVA 4 sector day. My 2 days off are wholly dedicated to catching up on sleep, for my next 6 days.
Also remember, many of these flight are completely full, on a 319 with 3 crew, it’s a high workload and incredibly tiring, and remember here at Euroflyer, there is no “trigger” for an extra crew member like at Heathrow.
There is no time for family or friends, nor to utilise the famous BA staff travel.
Granted, the staff travel is amazing, but can only be used on annual leave, the weekend trips and city breaks they advertise are nonsense, you just don’t have the time.

Again, you’re correct. Barely any cancellations, and for the most part, few crew related delays. Heathrow crew are currently in Gatwick topping us up, which is the main reason.

There are also a ridiculous amount of resignations, and crew currently working notice periods to head off to Norse, Easy and TUI, many others just to quit flying full stop. Add to this, the fact we have around 50 or 60 crew sat at home awaiting their Gatwick ID, some of whom have been waiting for months, our numbers are certainly inflated.

We’ve also now got our own AOC, which many aren’t “trained” for, conversion courses are regularly planned, only to be changed to flights after roster release, meaning those trained are getting a really hard time.

If your differing opinion is from flight crew, then it’s understandable, they have a pretty good gig here, and whilst their sympathy for us is high, there is of course nothing they can do to help other than offer us food from their crew meals….

So no crew food either? I really dont understand how not providing this can be a huge money saver for an airline that has always offered it... new "subsidiary" or not.

The crews i've had from LGW over the past few months have been nothing but class and a credit to BA. Usually a lot more consistent than LHR colleagues, but i guess this should be easier to manage with a smaller team. So i am very sad to learn that BA think this is an acceptable working practice and a way to treat a just important team in their brand and network. Infact if more people were aware, i'm sure it would make people reconsider their choice of airline.

If a benefits package and rostering agreement can be made very soon, im sure it will retain a huge amount of crew and even attract many more. For e.g; crew food and a maximum rostered 5 days on in a row before 2 to 3 days rostered off. This will allow much more flexibility for crew to swap on and off flights and even choose to take on more flights if they wish. Something that improves morale no end.

The long and short of it. Its starting to sound splitting up the LGW operation really was uneccessary and hugely messy.

[nguba]

I suspect the decision to set up BA EuroFlyer was imposed by IAG and BA would rather have not done it.

IAG CEO Luis Gallego was of course previously involved in the set up of Iberia Express in Madrid.

[USERNAME_]

So no crew food either? I really dont understand how not providing this can be a huge money saver for an airline that has always offered it... new "subsidiary" or not.
.

No crew food. Although with the flight crew meals, and the occasional spare club meal to share it’s not a deal breaker anymore.
Just one of many “anti-BA” initiatives here at Euroflyer, among other things like crew cleaning the cabin during turnaround. Don’t need to tell most of you on here how disgusting a cabin can be after an Alicante or Dalaman, which doesn’t please the customers on the return leg.

Im pleased to hear you were happy with the crews from LGW, we try our best to deliver a good service to the customers with the few resources we have.

[ClearedToNowhere]

March roster is out, and I see already that some cabin crew are posting goodbyes on the Facebook group. While it’s hugely disappointing that our cabin crew are treated this way, the almost immediate resignation following roster release is rather funny.

I must add, I don’t blame them, some of those rosters would make Ryanair and FlyDubai crew flinch, CHIRP will be busy this month.

[Albert Hall]

From what I hear, the ex-Level/Vueling COO is at the heart of all of these problems. I don't hear anything positive there, but Flight Ops seems to be operating in tandem with the mothership much more closely than Cabin Services. CC rosters are awful and the other problem is that commission at BAEF is much lower than you would get at easyJet - so many have left eJ for BAEF and then gone back again after a couple of rosters and a couple of pay packets. They'll not manage to crew A321s at this rate.

[vectisman]

Surely this situation needs to be sorted quickly! Planes are full and yield I hear is good so time to move someone on or out.
Surely paying decent commission, giving food and having reasonable roosters is about good management and building a happy team.
I can't believe BA management will allow this mess to continue with the summer season approaching for the sake of a few pounds!
Surely someone must realise this has been going on for too long!

[787Heaven]

Agree with everything you say. Unfortunately it continues. The “meeting” that took place yesterday shows we are HUGELY undercrewed, and that rosters going forward into March and April will only get worse before they get better.
I’m not sure how the current 6/2 pattern with 7 minimum days off per month can get any worse.

im sad to read this. The 6 on 2 off were always part of the plan which is fair enough but, it was said in the beginning that it would be done in a worst case scenario. Now it seems like it’s the norm which really isn’t fair.

[willy wombat]

Out of interest, how does EZY and FR cabin crew rostering compare to BAEF?

[Asturias56]

"I can't believe BA management will allow this mess to continue with the summer season approaching for the sake of a few pounds!"

It's all about "a few pounds" as far as management are concerned

[nguba]

I know IAG like to move executives around the group but the LEVEL / Vueling influence is not encouraging.

I remember many years ago before Alex Cruz moved to BA, there was a quote from him in an internal BA news article that Vueling’s 40% attrition rate for crew was “by design”.

The fact that BA thought to put this in an internal communication obviously went down badly with crew at the time.

[Cazza_fly]

Just back from a round trip to Malta from Gatwick on the recently "transferred" A321s. Great flight and top crew. Even better was the Gatwick South Terminal arrival experience. Starting to favour this over Heathrow T5 now.

Anyway, with 2 x A321s now in the fleet so far and a slowly increasing build up to the summer schedule, are things improving at BAEF? I see BA are leasing in 3 x Avion Express A320s for the peak summer season, i guess this will help out with crewing levels, perhaps whilst they continue to recruit and train for their own metal.

with 5 x more shorthaul config A321ceos still currently stored in MAD, I guess if the operation continues to be successful and passenger numbers increase then all of the BA 321ceos would transfer over to LGW.

[fjencl]

I see BA are leasing in 3 x Avion Express A320s for the peak summer season, i guess this will help out with crewing levels, perhaps whilst they continue to recruit and train for their own metal.

Do we know how many months they will be leasing in the Avion express A320's and for what routes are they going to operate.

[HOVIS]

I keep hearing rumours amongst flight crew that some of the aircraft will be based in UK regions.
Anyone else?

[Cazza_fly]

Do we know how many months they will be leasing in the Avion express A320's and for what routes are they going to operate.

Between May/June and September. I presume like previous leases they will be used on any mix of A320 routes, rather than any set of specific routes.

I keep hearing rumours amongst flight crew that some of the aircraft will be based in UK regions.
Anyone else?

i'd say highly unlikely considering the lack of aircraft and crew... if anything they could operate charters or high-peak scheduled routes for short periods like BA Cityflyer and even mainline do AKA - MAN-IBZ etc... However, i'd say the regions are currently well covered for the types of route they'd probably offer.

[HOVIS]

Thanks, that's what I thought too. 👍

[nguba]

Interestingly, BA are temporarily moving NUE/PSA/VLC from Heathrow to Gatwick in early April.

https://twitter.com/londonairtravel/status/1635989748849205249?s=46&t=OIvCYLUy9nzZ0zwTbRWkkw

[Cazza_fly]

Interestingly, BA are temporarily moving NUE/PSA/VLC from Heathrow to Gatwick in early April.

https://twitter.com/londonairtravel/status/1635989748849205249?s=46&t=OIvCYLUy9nzZ0zwTbRWkkw

Interesting, although i'd expect these to be crewed and operated by mainline crews now from Heathrow. Again, another reason the seperation of the base into a subsidiary is such a mess - having crews that wont be able to operate on esch others aircraft of "the same airline".

I'm hazarding a guess that this temporary move is to help alleviate the ground handling staffing issues at Heathrow.

[toledoashley]

29 March to 10 April also happens to be most of the Easter school holidays…

[Mr Mac]

It would be good if they could operate to the Mediterranean from Manchester as though there are many flights to that area from Manchester by the likes of Jet 2 they keep all the best slots and times for their holiday business now and you end up flying early morning and late night as a result.

As there are quite a few people with properties down that way I think they would be pleasantly surprised at the take up.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[Rutan16]

It would be good if they could operate to the Mediterranean from Manchester as though there are many flights to that area from Manchester by the likes of Jet 2 they keep all the best slots and times for their holiday business now and you end up flying early morning and late night as a result.

As there are quite a few people with properties down that way I think they would be pleasantly surprised at the take up.

Cheers
Mr Mac

Cityflyer operated several seasons of quasi charters then upped sticks to Southampton and Edinburgh; they have no intention of serving the regions again . When City gets their Saturday extension even those programmes will be cancelled.

[USERNAME_]

Just back from a round trip to Malta from Gatwick on the recently "transferred" A321s. Great flight and top crew. Even better was the Gatwick South Terminal arrival experience. Starting to favour this over Heathrow T5 now.

Anyway, with 2 x A321s now in the fleet so far and a slowly increasing build up to the summer schedule, are things improving at BAEF? I see BA are leasing in 3 x Avion Express A320s for the peak summer season, i guess this will help out with crewing levels, perhaps whilst they continue to recruit and train for their own metal.

with 5 x more shorthaul config A321ceos still currently stored in MAD, I guess if the operation continues to be successful and passenger numbers increase then all of the BA 321ceos would transfer over to LGW.

Glad to hear you enjoyed your flights with us!
We are hoping the Avion aircraft take the pressure off somewhat, however Heathrow have been operating a large chunk of flying recently and that too helped, although I don’t expect they will be able to keep up that level through the summer (One day last week, 15 of 23 flights were LHR cabin crew).
Crewing levels are still wholly unacceptable, while they claim to have “fixed” the 6/2 problem, many crew still continue to find themselves operating 6 in a row, EasyJet, Norse Atlantic and Virgin just sent out new rounds of training start dates, and I believe around 50/60, yes you read that correctly, are on their way out of here to those airlines by the time May rolls around, which is the biggest issue we will face, especially Norse, almost everybody who started at EF pre-Summer 2022, who came from other airlines and are considered experienced, are on their way to Norse.
Add to this the fact that recruitment has sloped off lately, with less and less people coming through the door.
But things are slowly improving, very very slowly, at times it often feels like 1 step forward and 2 steps backwards, but we’ll get there.
In terms of flying, it’s clear to see changes in terms of rostering, since last month. The issue now lays with the crewing numbers, if they can’t fill the gap now opened up by the crew leaving for EZY/Titan/Virgin/Norse, I fear we might find ourselves in the same position as before.


crews that wont be able to operate on esch others aircraft of "the same airline".
.
Thankfully we still have a number of BA AOC aircraft down here, and a group of EF cabin crew who are still qualified to fly on it, so LHR crew can be chopped and changed in and out at the pleasure of the crewing gods.

[USERNAME_]

Euroflyer operated flights today departing with EFW callsigns, instead of BAW.

[ClearedToNowhere]

Don’t know who we p*ssed off, but the CAA are lurking and boarding almost daily now for past week.

Cabin crew interrogations and failure to supply suitable answers are too, unfortunately, daily.

[ClearedToNowhere]

GATR staying in Antalya overnight after yet another flight deck smoke emergency. We must be setting some sort of record at this point, unfortunately.

[vectisman]

GATR staying in Antalya overnight after yet another flight deck smoke emergency. We must be setting some sort of record at this point, unfortunately.
You seem determined to report any negative event re Euroflyer. I wonder what agenda you have?

[ClearedToNowhere]

You seem determined to report any negative event re Euroflyer. I wonder what agenda you have?

No agenda, I work for EFW. Just not much positivity to report right now.

[USERNAME_]

No agenda, I work for EFW. Just not much positivity to report right now.

Agreed. But just report nothing instead.

Although we would all love an unscheduled nightstop in AYT right now, lucky crew 😂

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

You seem determined to report any negative event re Euroflyer. I wonder what agenda you have?
What's yours? Almost every post from you is about how marvellous BA at LGW is.
There's legitimate business reasons why this whole is idea is a bad one and that should be openly discussed. I'd love for BA to do well outside of LHR but to my mind, this concept has serious flaws. Any other airline who has a lower cost business unit on a separate certificate operating the same aircraft as mainline has a clear and apparent branding differential.
Air Canada has Rouge, Iberia has Iberia Express. But we all know BA do things the complex and convoluted special BA way, so they have BA aircraft in BA colours operating BA flights with former BA pilots and newbie cabin crew operating on a different AOC. It's like the AML experiment all over again.... IMHO unless they go single cabin and invest for growth with new equipment and a clear differential like go, it will ultimately fail. To me it's a contradiction to be British Airways and lower cost because the finance team will likely continue to try and attribute wider BA costs to Euroflyer because they're really just BA except they're pretending not to be. It's just Chinese Walls and they tend not to last in business. I'll also bet you that there's an internal conversation going on about those G-EUX* A321s going back to LHR where they can be used to support the core business of feeding long haul and being swapped out for the oldest A320s instead.
By comparison easyJet kept it very simple and are many times the size of BA at Gatwick. If only there was a successful template BA could follow.....but being BA they feel they need to offer Club and lounges.

[Vokes55]

I think if they thought the A321s were better suited to LHR, they would’ve kept them there. It’s too much aircraft for the majority of sectors out of LHR (without killing yield) and they have ample A321NEOs to cover those that do need the capacity.

On the other hand, it’s easy to fill A321s to Turkey, Spain and Greece in the summer.

As for Euroflyer, they’re not trying to be different. It’s just a fudge to allow worse staff T&Cs. The customer isn’t meant to notice a difference. They’ll never have enough slots to have a full operation at LHR so they’ll always be at Gatwick. If they can make that operation cheaper in any way, they will.

Can’t disagree with the general consensus on customer experience with BA, but if there’s one thing they know how to do, it’s make money.

[toledoashley]

I think if they thought the A321s were better suited to LHR, they would’ve kept them there. It’s too much aircraft for the majority of sectors out of LHR (without killing yield) and they have ample A321NEOs to cover those that do need the capacity.

On the other hand, it’s easy to fill A321s to Turkey, Spain and Greece in the summer.

As for Euroflyer, they’re not trying to be different. It’s just a fudge to allow worse staff T&Cs. The customer isn’t meant to notice a difference. They’ll never have enough slots to have a full operation at LHR so they’ll always be at Gatwick. If they can make that operation cheaper in any way, they will.

Can’t disagree with the general consensus on customer experience with BA, but if there’s one thing they know how to do, it’s make money.

It’s a bit of fine line - on one hand they are trying to shout at investors to say that Gatwick is a ‘low cost operation’, whilst telling customers its no different to what you get at Heathrow.

[Albert Hall]

From all that I hear, the Club Europe offer at Gatwick is one of the aspects working very well. The size of the Club cabins is capped because of cabin crew availability but the load factor up front sounds to be good, and this is obviously a key differentiator against easyJet and others on the routes that Euroflyer is operating. If they can grow and sustain the cabin crew numbers (a whole other debate!) then it sounds like there is more potential for the Club cabins to grow too.

I was told the main reason that the G-EUX* A321s are going into Gatwick isn't really demand/capacity for big aircraft but that they get hammered on the Heathrow noise charges. They fall foul of some threshold in the Heathrow charges and there was apparently a couple of million quid per year difference per aircraft in the typical costs of operating the EUXs at Heathrow versus a NEO.

[Downwind_Left]

It’s a bit of fine line - on one hand they are trying to shout at investors to say that Gatwick is a ‘low cost operation’, whilst telling customers its no different to what you get at Heathrow.

It’s quite simple, it’s a low(er) operational cost to the company, mainly due staff contract and working practices, the product on offer to the customers is identical.

Nobody has claimed LGW is a LCC type operation as far as customers are concerned. Often fares on so called LCC airlines can be eye watering, either just the fare or with extras added on.. the “cost” aspect refers to the airlines operational costs, as opposed to charged to the customers, but the former allows lower fares to be charged, sometimes.

[Wycombe]

From all that I hear, the Club Europe offer at Gatwick is one of the aspects working very well. The size of the Club cabins is capped because of cabin crew availability but the load factor up front sounds to be good
I wonder how much of that Club occupancy is real revenue vs. people upgrading using Avios!?

[OzzyOzBorn]

But Avios 'spent' reduce a long-term liability set against group company accounts. Seeing them used is a good thing from an IAG perspective.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

But Avios 'spent' reduce a long-term liability set against group company accounts. Seeing them used is a good thing from an IAG perspective.
Depends how Finance treat it, is the benefit allocated in any way to Gatwick short haul?
The relative weakness at LGW short haul is apparently the % of available seats redeemed vs. paid. They're trying to offer a multi cabin short haul point to point service aginast easyJet and Wizz whilst offering lounges and a Club service as well as the meeting the locos on fares.It's fundamentally schizophrenic IMHO, all things to all men and a round peg in a square hole. Even optimistic growth shows them as a bit player vs. easyJet.
You want real measurable growth? Go single cabin service and rebrand as a real standalone business unit to some akin to the old "British Airtours", under the BA branding umbrella but distinct from the network carrier at LHR. That's got a medium term chance, a go-fly for the 202s.
You want somewhere for LHR business travellers to redeem Avios on family holidays in the same way they've always done? Then keep trying that same thing that has't ever generated consistent profits or consistent growth since.
Since 1992, some three decades ago, BA have said annually that staff at LGW need to accept pay cuts as they can't make money. I think the problem always has been how BA's finance team allocate costs and revenue. I think the core issue is Euroflyer whilst technically a stand alone, is actually more like arms length BA mainline. It's really just BA (intentional from a branding perspective) but chaotic from an operational standpoint.

[Vokes55]

Creative accounting in order to drive down costs. If the operation didn’t make money, they wouldn’t bother. Club and lounges is what differentiates them from the competition at LGW.

As for the club seats ex-LGW, more likely they’re revenue heavy with people on BA holidays whilst the double tier point promotion is ongoing.

[nguba]

Head for Points has transcribed comments by BAEF CEO Tom Stoddart at a recent Aviation Club UK event:

https://www.headforpoints.com/2023/09/14/tom-stoddart-interview/ (https://www.headforpoints.com/2023/09/14/tom-stoddart-interview/comment-page-1/)

BA has never really made money shorthaul at Gatwick, with only one year in the last 15 delivering profits. The Gatwick leisure market is ruthless with fiercely competed yields requiring razor sharp attention to cost, something BA simply wasn’t equipped to do under the previous management structure. That meant it was difficult for BA to ever make a profit out of short haul at Gatwick.
​​​​​​​

[willy wombat]

Well of course BA bought cityFlyer express which made profits on short haul at LGW due to, among other things, “razor sharp attention to costs” and, as soon as Bob Ayling left, proceeded to f it up royally partly due, IMHO, having a management who wouldn’t stand up to the unions.

[cavokblues]

I'm always intrigued why BAEF and BACF share a CEO / MD. Would have thought it's much better to have a separate individual concentrating on each role.

[toledoashley]

It doesn't really sound like an operation selling out to Jet2 though, at least that's how it reads.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

It doesn't really sound like an operation selling out to Jet2 though, at least that's how it reads.
The term CEO is a misnomer, he's a senior manager within BA running two of the arms length operations (and still flying the line?)
If they haven't made money in 15 years, does that imply they last turned a profit in 2008? Or was that year zero for some reason? Bottom line is unless they make enough money to tie up 21 aircraft, they'll fold what they need to back into mainline. Do we reckon that this FY will be in the black? We've been here before so many times. The line that caught my eye was they were inspired by Iberia Express. An AOC expressly set up to destroy union power and wages at Iberia, basically it exists as a new start clean sheet so that IAG could move anything from Iberia mainline to Express over time and wind up the original after an extended period. The only difference here is that I2 was also based alongside Iberia at home base whereas Euroflyer is at Gatters. However, there remains NO reason why LGW long haul couldn't go over to Euroflyer over time. And even allow Euroflyer short haul to fly W patterns into LHR. Careful what you cheer for....

[nguba]

BA Euroflyer was certainly inspired by Iberia Express. IAG CEO Luis Gallego was CEO of I2. Though, I believe the size of I2 is capped when an industrial dispute at Iberia went to binding arbitration.

There is an irony in that LGW went to mixed short / long haul flying for cabin crew around 2006 which was a precursor to Mixed Fleet at LHR. And now LGW has gone back to separate short and long haul crews.

Before BA Euroflyer, BA ran the slide rule over LGW costs and were adamant that its cost base was in line with the market. When does the need to drive down costs to be "flexible and competitive" ever stop?

[cavokblues]

Maybe I'm too cynical with all things IAG these days but I'm incredibly sceptical they would have persisted with a loss making Gatwick operation for 15 years.....!

[GLCYZ]

The term CEO is a misnomer, he's a senior manager within BA running two of the arms length operations (and still flying the line?).

Three if you count GGS

[Asturias56]

Maybe I'm too cynical with all things IAG these days but I'm incredibly sceptical they would have persisted with a loss making Gatwick operation for 15 years.....!

in all big operations allocating profits and costs is an interesting exercise and can give you whatever answer you want (see the Virgin empire)

BA have never liked Gatwick in their life - they operate there grudgingly. Always have done, always will do

[Bobby Scruggs]

Hello everybody

I’ve just applied on the website and done the test. My missus is cabin crew in heathrow and the night stops seem the most appealing part. She does the odd there and back. I’ve looked at the locations in garwick and there’s the Caribbean, America. So my question is is there many chances for night stops in euroflyer?

[vectisman]

in all big operations allocating profits and costs is an interesting exercise and can give you whatever answer you want (see the Virgin empire)

BA have never liked Gatwick in their life - they operate there grudgingly. Always have done, always will do​​​​​

Attitudes may be changing especially if Gatwick gets there Northern runway into use before a Heathrow gets 3rd runway which is looking more likely at the moment. Sean Doyle said at the last results meeting that Gatwick was an important gateway for BA especially with the Northern runway plans.

I really don’t believe BA would have returned short haul tomLGW if it didn’t have the potential to work.

BA Long haul from Gatwick has good yields and makes money. Whatever the official line may have been in the past short haul made money in the summer but not in the winter. They are trying to address seasonality by ensuring winter routes are optimised. Also some staff contracts allow for less work in the winter months. However as we know most airlines operating short haul in the European winter months lose money. The trick is to make enough money in the summer season to offset those losses.

By the end of the year BA Euroflyer will have 21 aircraft and by next summer 24 plus. To carry nearly 4 million passengers on short haul from March 2022 to August 2022 isn’t too bad and shows demand is there. BA long haul is carrying about 2 million a year to and from Gatwick so altogether a healthy total.

The fleet started at 3 aircraft and is now at 15 active plus two undergoing maintenance and one being repaired in Marrakech after being hit with a ground handler vechicle.

I expect all the 11 BA A321ceo aircraft to be at Gatwick by the end of the winter season plus the original 10 A320 G- GATx aircraft. It will be interesting to see which other aircraft switch over in Summer 2024.

Hopefully over the winter maintenance and engineering capacity issues will ease for BA generally along with pilot training capacity to have less need next year to wet lease aircraft. We shall see.

[Wycombe]

I’ve looked at the locations in garwick and there’s the Caribbean, America

They are long-haul BA Mainline destinations, and are not flown by Euroflyer

[Sotonsean]

They are long-haul BA Mainline destinations, and are not flown by Euroflyer

And a first post containing "garwick" rather than Gatwick 🤔

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

​​​​​I really don’t believe BA would have returned short haul to LGW if it didn’t have the potential to work.....isn’t too bad and shows demand is there.
I hope you're on the PR payroll :)
I don't believe anyone ever suggested that demand wasn't there, BA could fill a lot more aircraft and have done so previously, but they almost always lost money or were inconsistently in the black. I've been a customer of BA LGW since 1993! Used to love the place.
What they could never do was what easyJet do which was remain consistently profitable in that market. BA Euroflyer didn't source those aircraft or crews themselves, they came via the mothership, and BA mainline will be expecting to see a proper ROI on the use of those 21 ex BA airframes. Time and time again there will be strong argument that the LGW fleet could be better deployed elsewhere. Those younger A321s could have stayed at LHR and helped support the core network carrier operation, instead LHR is using ex BMI aircraft which are a relatively poor customer experience. So giving those A321s to LGW is going to have to show some a decent ROI for any future expansion. This is the first time I can recall they've prioritised LGW over LHR, in that the unloved BMI fleet is currently falling apart flying out of LHR alongside long haul being fed by the oldest and smallest Airbus narrow bodies! That's a Helluva change! Time will tell.

[vectisman]

Yes, but Heathrow will continue to receive the new A320neos and A321Neos. The BMI A320s will continue to disappear. The A319s are being kept longer to maintain frequencies on certain key business routes
where demand for business travel is now less than previously including some transfers from Europe to long haul. Hopefully that will continue to improve over time.
Leisure travel has come back very quickly.
Easyjet does tend to make a loss over the winter months but makes excellent summer profits. Winter loss 2022/2023 £411 million. October to March.
The ex BMI fleet out of Heathrow is a very small part of the total LHR Short haul fleet. The G-DBCx A319 series are actually several years younger than the original BA A319s.

[Albert Hall]

A few things to say here:

BA did, once upon a time, love Gatwick. The transfer of the African and South American services back in the late 90s which lasted broadly until 9/11 being the main point in time. Admittedly it was a long time ago and it got binned pretty quickly but I don't think you can argue it was anything other than a coherent attempt to grow Gatwick as a complementary hub to Heathrow with its own "sphere of interest" - a phrase that has particular meaning going further back in history at Gatwick.

There is a very good reason why the fleet has been arranged as it has, with the remaining 321ceos sent to Gatwick. That's Heathrow's charges. A 321ceo has a noise margin of 14.1 EPNdB which means that it falls into the Super High charging category at Heathrow. A 321neo has a noise margin of 26.2 which means it falls into the Super Low category. One is charged at £3514 per movement and the other at £772 per movement (a movement being either a take-off or a landing). Over a typical LHR S/H five-sector aircraft day x 11 months a year (allowing for maintenance downtime etc) then that's £4.5 million per aircraft in extra LHR charges to fly a 321ceo versus a 321neo. I'm sure that's why Aer Lingus are putting a 320neo on Cork and Shannon this winter as well. For comparison, a 319ceo has a noise margin of 20.1 EPNdB which means it squeaks into the Base category, and the landing fees for a 319ceo are a mere £3.5 million per aircraft per year less than the 321ceo.

So if you have leisure routes at Gatwick where you've a chance of filling the extra seats on the 321ceo and the aircraft is going nowhere near Heathrow in the process, that's exactly what you do - and exactly what they have done. Someone has their head screwed on properly.

To pick up Vectisman's comments, easyJet's summer profits are less than excellent. Far less. They announced a Q3 profit (April to June) of £203m which was trumpeted as the best ever. However, that includes a stated £49m profit from easyJet Holidays, which wasn't around at the time of the previous record. So either the underlying performance of the airline isn't as good as it was, or (more likely) there is a heap of internal transfer pricing going on between airline and holiday company so Holidays is shown to be a success and making a heap of money - when, in reality, had easyJet sold the same air seat to one of the dynamic packagers, they'd probably have achieved the same bottom line. It's hard to be sure, but the numbers were not fantastic. One look at the share price - languishing in the doldrums - will tell you all the market thinks about it.

[Golfss]

Hello everybody

I’ve just applied on the website and done the test. My missus is cabin crew in heathrow and the night stops seem the most appealing part. She does the odd there and back. I’ve looked at the locations in garwick and there’s the Caribbean, America. So my question is is there many chances for night stops in euroflyer?

nope, no planned night stops.

[772]

Maybe I'm too cynical with all things IAG these days but I'm incredibly sceptical they would have persisted with a loss making Gatwick operation for 15 years.....!

The short haul network around 2008-2010 was appalling absolutely no direction or common sense adding route such as DRS, POZ, NQY etc made no sense this off the back of BA having first dibs on GB Airways and letting EZY buy them and giving them substantial growth at LGW.

Colm Lacey came in and the route network started making much more sense focusing on the typical SH leisure destinations.

2012 (ish) each passenger lost BA in the region of £20 per head on a short haul.

Over the years between 2012 and 2019 the SH operation became much better, better network better destinations and frequencies. Also best on time performance of any airline at LGW in 2019.

Many changes were made during these years to reduce costs and drive up revenue which all worked well, yes it’s been a slog but pre covid the BA SH operation on its own was profitable and had covid not happened I have no reason to believe this wouldn’t have continued.

I would say the successes so far of EF is somewhere in the middle of expectations. I am not party to information on yields which is, of course, key but Loads are very very healthy. Especially in the club cabins, often the 321s have big club cabins 40+ and rare you see anything less than 6 rows in club, normally full.

operationally they are naive with regular poor decision making and communication, how much of this is lack of experience or something else I don’t know.

crew retention has been a huge issue for EF it’s improved but still not where I’m sure they would want it to be.

the reliability of the fleet has been poor especially the 321s, I appreciate aircraft only make money with they fly but EF need to improve their operational resilience be it with available crew and also the ability to roll the fleet better and even have some sort of spare aircraft during peak times if at all possible (at a cost I appreciate) for IROPS.

Of course there are avios redemptions on the SH network but it’s not fair to suggest the large club cabins are because of this vast majority of club pax are paying their way and one thing that is evident post covid is those few club seats that are empty are often sold as airport upgrades, in greater number than pre covid.

club gives a differential at LGW and the lounges are very popular with passengers.

being all things to all people is not ideal and very hard to get right.

EF in its current guise I believe will work well moving forwards, as long as crew retention is addressed, along side the operational resilience and better decision making in IROPS.

one area of added complexity now with EF is the inability to lean on mainline for crew and aircraft. Now almost all LGW aircraft are on the EF AOC there is no way for BA to plug any crew ping gaps as was the case pre covid or even when EF was in its infancy nor can BA send down 320s when required this has added to the lack of operational resilience.

but I’m sure in time these issues will be ironed out as long as EF is honest with itself.

In the medium term however BA/EF/IAG need to address the fleet (surely they must have a plan, all businesses have medium and long term plans) aged 320/321s for a quasi LCC isn’t really fit for purpose.

IAG have their max order but not sure it’s been said where these will go I’ve heard rumours of VY as they are seen as valuable to the group but they are taking deliveries of NEOs so not sure.

[USERNAME_]

crew retention has been a huge issue for EF it’s improved but still not where I’m sure they would want it to be.


EF in its current guise I believe will work well moving forwards, as long as crew retention is addressed.

Our biggest issue since Day 1, which unfortunately despite promise after promise, doesn’t appear to be changing.

[Asturias56]

"2012 (ish) each passenger lost BA in the region of £20 per head on a short haul."

Creative accounting at its best - like the years when BA claimed they lost money on ABZ-LHR with prices that were higher than some transatlantic fares - and there were a LOT of business passengers and turn up and go seats sold on those ABZ flights - which were always packed

[Golfss]

Our biggest issue since Day 1, which unfortunately despite promise after promise, doesn’t appear to be changing.

Has their been no comments from management on increasing pay or improving rosters for both CC and FC?

Also, is their any substantial evidence / information on the rumours of Jet2/BA purchasing of one purchasing the other?

[772]

"2012 (ish) each passenger lost BA in the region of £20 per head on a short haul."

Creative accounting at its best - like the years when BA claimed they lost money on ABZ-LHR with prices that were higher than some transatlantic fares - and there were a LOT of business passengers and turn up and go seats sold on those ABZ flights - which were always packed

Quite.

When ABZ was at LGW is had huge premium feed from IAH

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

It was more that like BMI, the short haul leg got the short straw as most of the revenue went against the long haul leg. Same reason BA used to justify dropping BFS-LHR back in the day. Is Finance driving or following the strategy? The allocation of costs was also contentious, partly why EUROFLYER needs to be arms length from Waterworld.