It's official - Germany buys F-35 for Nuclear Role

[henra]

Hi,
Haven't seen it mentioned yet. Today it was offically confirmed by the Defense Secretary as well as the Chief of the German Air Force that for the Nuclear Role 35 F-35A will be purchased as successor to the ageing Tornado Aircraft
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-decides-principle-buy-f-35-fighter-jet-government-source-2022-03-14/

Ahh, btw. honourable mention goes to Vladimir Putin. Probably wouldn't have happened without his tremendous support...

regards
Henra

[global2express]

This would have happened without Putin as well, talks were underway well before Putin's invasion of the Ukraine. https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/30166-germany-to-begin-f-35a-order-negotiations-with-united-states

The F-35 was ruled out from the beginning by the previous coalition (Merkel's party being the stronger coalition partner, Scholz's party the weaker) in order not to jeopardize the FCAS program by upsetting France, with the new coalition the focus shifted to a "European solution", i.e. not only buying from the US. Instead of 15 EA-18G and 30 F/A-18F (obviously all American) the new order will be for 35 F-35A (maybe to be built in Italy?) and 15 Typhoon ECR, the latter to be developed and built in Germany.

[Finningley Boy]

I wonder how well understood among the British public, media and political parties, this is? That Germany has a nuclear strike role. Albeit through the shared nuclear defence programme alongside Belgium and the Netherlands. And maintained by the USAF of course.

FB

[GeeRam]

I presume these 15 x EW versions of the Typhoon they will be developing will be new build two-seater's....?

[Less Hair]

They call it Eurofighter not Typhoon and the F-35 special weapons are US owned under permanent US guard and only released by order of the US President. Exact the same procedures like in other NATO countries.

[melmothtw]

I presume these 15 x EW versions of the Typhoon they will be developing will be new build two-seater's....?

The Eurofighter ECR can be single- or twin-seat depending on the customer's requirements, which aren't yet known.

[JeanKhul]

They call it Eurofighter not Typhoon and the F-35 special weapons are US owned under permanent US guard and only released by order of the US President. Exact the same procedures like in other NATO countries.
Except France of course, contrary to common belief.
I remember american cockpit colleagues not believing that - for them it was unthinkable. But they were airline pilots, like me in a Gulf company.

[henra]

I presume these 15 x EW versions of the Typhoon they will be developing will be new build two-seater's....?
They will be new built, that's for sure. If they will be twin- seaters? Quite likely but not yet announced. What is still unclear is if there will be another 40 EF/Typhoon to replace the remaining Tornados. At the moment there are still ~90 Tornados in service and yesterday's announcement only included 50 Aircraft. Looking at the planned development costs of the ECR- Typhoon + the basic aircraft there is also still a gap of ~5bln € to the announced 15bln € for the Tornado replacement. Which would roughly fit another 40 aircraft (likely EF/Typhoon).

[golder]

I wonder how well understood among the British public, media and political parties, this is? That Germany has a nuclear strike role. Albeit through the shared nuclear defence programme alongside Belgium and the Netherlands. And maintained by the USAF of course.

FB
Germany with a nuke bomb. What could go wrong?

[henra]

Germany with a nuke bomb. What could go wrong?
Probably not much more than Russia with a nuke ;-)

Nuclear sharing in Germany exists since 1960. It requires two- factor authorisation: By the US having the code for the Bombs + the GAF by transporting the bombs to the target.

[melmothtw]

What is still unclear is if there will be another 40 EF/Typhoon to replace the remaining Tornados. At the moment there are still ~90 Tornados in service and yesterday's announcement only included 50 Aircraft.

Slightly more confusing than that.

The Luftwaffe has its Tornado replacement requirement for 85 aircraft to replace the current 90 Tornados, but also has an electronic attack requirement for NATO named Luftgestützte Wirkung im Elektromagnetischen Spektrum (luWES).

It is not clear if the 35 F-35As and 15 Eurofighter ECRs announced on Monday are all for the Tornado replacement, in which case we can expect an announcement for another 35 Eurofighter Tranche 5s, or if the 15 ECRs are for luWES, in which case we can expect an announcement for another 50 Eurofighter Tranche 5s.
The previous German government said it was to get 55 Eurofighter Tranche 5s and 30 Super Hornets for the Tornado replacement, along with 15 Growlers for luWES, which suggests we can expect 50 more Eurofighter Tranche 5s.

[chopper2004]

Glad I kept my swag from the show as you got a free cap for sitting in the F-35A mock up.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/f4d39520_52da_4010_8ca3_5045ec2df8aa_9ae11c9db53bf1703d7f4b7 4fb4f2c380b396955.jpeg

it was kind of a given (in spite of Berlin dismissing it a year later) the 35A would be picked re NATO nuclear shared commitment plus N SA removes the Super Hornet as a Bucket of Sunshine carrier.

https://fas.org/blogs/security/2021/12/fa-18_removed-from-fact-sheet/

German neighbors do or will have the 35

Belgian Air Component
RNethAF
RDAF
Polish Air Force
Swiss Armee

cheers

[RAFEngO74to09]

Sale of F-35A + associated weapons to Germany approved by DSCA.

Germany – F-35 Aircraft and Munitions | Defense Security Cooperation Agency (dsca.mil) (https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major-arms-sales/germany-f-35-aircraft-and-munitions)

[rattman]

Except France of course, contrary to common belief.
I remember american cockpit colleagues not believing that - for them it was unthinkable. But they were airline pilots, like me in a Gulf company.

France doesn't F-35 or US nuclear weapons, they have their own nukes just like the UK

[sandiego89]

Sale of F-35A + associated weapons to Germany approved by DSCA.

Germany – F-35 Aircraft and Munitions | Defense Security Cooperation Agency (dsca.mil) (https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major-arms-sales/germany-f-35-aircraft-and-munitions)

Quite a mix of air-to-air, precision air to ground, dumb bombs and training rounds in that list- seems they will use the F-35 for a whole host of mission profiles. Imagine they will have a training unit in the USA.

[Finningley Boy]

Of all the F-35 customers it annoys me that we continue with the Jump Jet obsession and to our detriment. I can see the B only show in town for our particular design of aircraft carriers, but for the RAF, jeeze.

FB

[etudiant]

Quite a mix of air-to-air, precision air to ground, dumb bombs and training rounds in that list- seems they will use the F-35 for a whole host of mission profiles. Imagine they will have a training unit in the USA.

Given how unsafe the air space is above Ukraine, is the idea of such close air support still viable?

[melmothtw]

Given how unsafe the air space is above Ukraine, is the idea of such close air support still viable?

What has Germany's F-35 buy got to do with close air support over Ukraine?

[Lonewolf_50]

Given how unsafe the air space is above Ukraine, is the idea of such close air support still viable? I've seen close air support missions flow from altitudes that require 02 masks. PGM's allow that. You may want to re-evaluate what you think Close Air Support is.
The Close does not mean "close to the ground" as much as it means "close to own troops" (where the things that go boom arrive). Being a good FAC remains as much art as it does science. While I am at it, let's give a big round of applause for all of those FACs.

(I'll admit a bias to this next bit, given my rotary wing instincts) If you want CAS to show up in a 'close to the ground' mode, there are attack helicopters who can fulfill that role. It doesn't have to be an A-10. (Although they are great at what they do).

In a word, the answer to your exam question
Q: Is close air support still viable?
A: Yes. (But it's not easy)

[GlobalNav]

I've seen close air support missions flow from altitudes that require 02 masks. PGM's allow that. You may want to re-evaluate what you think Close Air Support is.
The Close does not mean "close to the ground" as much as it means "close to own troops" (where the things that go boom arrive). Being a good FAC remains as much art as it does science. While I am at it, let's give a big round of applause for all of those FACs.

(I'll admit a bias to this next bit, given my rotary wing instincts) If you want CAS to show up in a 'close to the ground' mode, there are attack helicopters who can fulfill that role. It doesn't have to be an A-10. (Although they are great at what they do).

In a word, the answer to you exam question
Q: Is close air support still viable?
A: Yes. (But it's not easy)

CAS was never easy. Good CAS requires pilots who are not only good sticks, but warriors.

[etudiant]

What has Germany's F-35 buy got to do with close air support over Ukraine?

Sandiego89 has helpfully listed the range of equipment included. That sure makes it look like the plan is to use the F-35 as a multi mission combat aircraft, not solely a nuclear strike weapon.
For those other roles, the Ukraine experience certainly seems relevant to me.

[henra]

For those other roles, the Ukraine experience certainly seems relevant to me.
Indeed! The massive difficulties of the Russian Armed Forces are showing that (besides the importance of logistics) without proper Air Power it is extremely difficult to win against even a nominally much weeker opponent.

[Less Hair]

They will need deep penetration, EW and AA suppression capabilities for the strike role. The Ukraine conflict is not relevant at all.

[Biggus]

According to open source material, the current F-35 production rate is 13 aircraft per month (or is that just for the US armed forces?), and LM has no plans to increase that any further. Production targets also weren't met during the coronavirus period as supplies from sub contractors were delayed, so they're behind schedule and already playing catch up.

There are still some 2,000 F-35s planned for delivery to the USAF, USN and USMC, which presumably they will want before the aircraft are obsolete. So no doubt the bulk of production goes to the US. There are currently 8 export countries, including the UK, whose orders are only partially complete. There are at least another 5 export countries, including Poland, who haven't yet received any aircraft, but presumably will be in front of the new order from Germany in terms of priority for new aircraft delivery.

I don't know who makes the decisions about the priority of orders, presumably LM for exports, or whether DoD is ever consulted, maybe asked to give up some of its slots on the production line for export customers (DoD might be willing to do so some years to save money). If the DoD, and therefore the US Government does get involved in some way I don't know what their attitude will be. Personally I would prioritize Poland over Germany. I don't know what the Democrats attitude to Germany is, but the relationship between the US and Germany under the Republicans/Trump was certainly strained in terms of defence spending, 2% NATO target, etc.

Anyway, given all that background, it seems to me that it could be many years (5-10?) before Germany receives a meaningful number of aircraft.

Does anyone out there have any knowledge/thoughts on the matter they're willing/able to share - as opposed to my speculation?

[Less Hair]

Relations have improved again and german deliveries are planned from Italy AFAIK.

[henra]

I don't know what the Democrats attitude to Germany is, but the relationship between the US and Germany under the Republicans/Trump was certainly strained in terms of defence spending, 2% NATO target, etc.

Governments both sides of the pond have changed.
2% target is now official in Germany,


Anyway, given all that background, it seems to me that it could be many years (5-10?) before Germany receives a meaningful number of aircraft.
Does anyone out there have any knowledge/thoughts on the matter they're willing/able to share - as opposed to my speculation?
Something around 2027 for the first deliveries (to training units in the US) has been mentioned. Will be Block IV so not before 2026 anyway.