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Dont worry
14th Mar 2022, 11:09
After Bermuda revoked the airworthiness certificates of all VP-B, VP-Q registered Russian airliners you still see them flying around on Flightradar24.
Therefore they are all illegal. We know, that Russia is giving a wet **** scoopy doo about it.
But nevertheless just imagine something goes wrong and one of those airplane crash. No airworthiness, no insurance.
Are they really that desperate to go that way? They will never ever make it into international airspace again or with maybe just really high payments to insurance companies.

ATC Watcher
14th Mar 2022, 11:42
Therefore they are all illegal. Not necessarily , it depends on the Russian laws ( which I do not know ). But you have to operate according the law of the country you fly in not the law of registration.
On insurance, if the Russian State covers them, no need for commercial insurance. Military Pax transport aircraft are not commercially insured and they transport civilians sometimes for instance.

747-8driver
14th Mar 2022, 13:36
Was in HKG last week and during taxi in we heard an ABC asking Ground something (start up?).
Then ATC told the guy that the airplane was de-registered from Bermuda and the airplane was now grounded...

Bidule
15th Mar 2022, 06:58
Not necessarily , it depends on the Russian laws ( which I do not know ). But you have to operate according the law of the country you fly in not the law of registration.
On insurance, if the Russian State covers them, no need for commercial insurance. Military Pax transport aircraft are not commercially insured and they transport civilians sometimes for instance.

Not fully correct. According to ICAO, the CoA is issued by the country of registration, that is Bermuda in this case. When the CoA is revoked, the aircraft is assumed to no longer be airworthy and so, it should not fly.
The Russian CAA attempts to overturn this "automatic" grounding by registering the leased aircraft in Russia are a breach to ICAO rules, stating that an aircraft can be registered with only one country.

.

ATC Watcher
15th Mar 2022, 07:40
Russia are a breach to ICAO rules,
Thanks Bidule, I must admit this is well outside my area of expertise, and I do not doubt what you say, just a remark, ICAO SARPS are aiming to standardize international operations But you are still sovereign in your airspace. The only thing you have to do as a State is to file a difference with ICAO. Plenty of those, the US having the biggest chunk. You can also withdraw from ICAO and do what you want ( e.g North Korea) but stuck in your own airspace, and fly outside with bilateral agreements. As someone said in the other thread, Putin is at war and ,and in war times ,everything is possible.
The hangover will be hard though....

sycamore
15th Mar 2022, 11:49
It`s about time that Kaliningrad had it`s airspace`closed`,and a/c en-route escorted back....

Less Hair
15th Mar 2022, 12:48
And then it's WW3 that you want?

DaveReidUK
15th Mar 2022, 13:11
It`s about time that Kaliningrad had it`s airspace`closed`,and a/c en-route escorted back....

Read the above references to sovereign airspace.

How exactly do you propose that (NATO?) imposes a NFZ over Russian territory ?

JCviggen
15th Mar 2022, 13:17
Aeroflot has announced they'll be flying SSJs to Armenia and Azerbajan from next week.

There's also a flight from Colombo to Moscow tomorrow at some point SU6266, offered to Russians in Maldives to get back. Also rumours that they're busy making local agreements to fly to Male and a couple other places again soon.

sycamore
15th Mar 2022, 19:01
DR,might be interesting to see the passengers; probably not a lot of holidaymakers, more a bunch of men,short haircuts,and lots of `farm machinery` in the cargo pallets.....

BFSGrad
16th Mar 2022, 00:59
Read the above references to sovereign airspace.

How exactly do you propose that (NATO?) imposes a NFZ over Russian territory ?
Perhaps the suggestion refers to the Russia's common transit of Polish or Baltic state sovereign airspace when flying to/from Kaliningrad.

DaveReidUK
16th Mar 2022, 12:30
Perhaps the suggestion refers to the Russia's common transit of Polish or Baltic state sovereign airspace when flying to/from Kaliningrad.

AFAIK, Russia is already banned from overflying EU airspace enroute to Kaliningrad, so I doubt that's what's being suggested here.

EDLB
16th Mar 2022, 13:17
AFAIK, Russia is already banned from overflying EU airspace enroute to Kaliningrad, so I doubt that's what's being suggested here.
There are currently lots of flights from KGD to SVO in the air as if they evac. that place.

ATC Watcher
16th Mar 2022, 13:21
AFAIK, Russia is already banned from overflying EU airspace enroute to Kaliningrad, so I doubt that's what's being suggested here.
Dave , as far as I know, there is an overfly convention between Belarus Vilnius and Kaliningrad that the Russian territory will always be accessible by air. signed around 1989-90. I do not thinly that closing unilaterally the corridor will be accepted by Russia.

EDLB
16th Mar 2022, 13:30
They do not give that a shot and fly over the baltic see. Might be that they fear a Lukaschenko style fighter scramble repo of some leased jets.

NoelEvans
16th Mar 2022, 23:32
Dave , as far as I know, there is an overfly convention between Belarus Vilnius and Kaliningrad that the Russian territory will always be accessible by air. signed around 1989-90. I do not thinly that closing unilaterally the corridor will be accepted by Russia.

If you watch FR24, all the Russian flights to/from Kaliningrad route over the sea, between Finland and the Baltic states all the way.

sycamore
17th Mar 2022, 00:31
Not true ; the FIR boundary for K`Grad extends to appx 200km west,Russian aircraft are cutting the corner from a point 100km west of Latvia, both inbound and outbound. So,NATO doesnt appear to be watching,or ignoring it....

Bksmithca
17th Mar 2022, 01:59
Not true ; the FIR boundary for K`Grad extends to appx 200km west,Russian aircraft are cutting the corner from a point 100km west of Latvia, both inbound and outbound. So,NATO doesnt appear to be watching,or ignoring it....
I'm thinking NATO is watching but is holding back because if they did anything Putin would jump all over it and drag NATO into the conflict.

DaveReidUK
17th Mar 2022, 04:23
Not true ; the FIR boundary for K`Grad extends to appx 200km west, Russian aircraft are cutting the corner from a point 100km west of Latvia, both inbound and outbound. So, NATO doesn't appear to be watching, or ignoring it....

The relationship between FIR boundaries and countries' national airspace is approximate, to say the least. It's the latter that counts in this instance.

sycamore
17th Mar 2022, 09:32
The Swedes certainly are watching,but cutting thru` a TMZ is just p%&s taking....GPS `spoofing..?

ATC Watcher
17th Mar 2022, 11:17
The relationship between FIR boundaries and countries' national airspace is approximate, to say the least. It's the latter that counts in this instance.
Absolutely. FIR boundaries are not "National" above international waters, it is not sovereign airspace it is just delegated airspace by ICAO for ATC purposes.

Pilot DAR
20th Mar 2022, 15:21
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/03/14/putin-allows-russian-airlines-to-fly-10-billion-worth-of-foreign-owned-planes.html

As mentioned, it appears that Russian airlines will continue to use the planes domestically, and issue their own national [only] flight authorities for the airplanes. The challenge will be that if the airplanes are ever recovered to their western owners, their C of A's will be totally invalid, and the Russian operation outside of the normal C of A authority will render the airworthiness status of the airplanes very unknown. Inspecting and re validating them for western C of A's again will be an immense task, if they're even airworthy at all!

Geriaviator
20th Mar 2022, 18:16
Just as interesting is the ownership question: as many if not most of these aircraft are leased, many via Ireland, the financiers seem likely to take a mighty hit. As others have said, Boeing and Airbus are not providing parts, so who's going to re-certify or insure an aircraft possibly containing non-original components?

ATC Watcher
20th Mar 2022, 18:41
who's going to re-certify or insure an aircraft possibly containing non-original components?
The State for both , just like in Iran , as long as you fly inside your own country , your own State rules apply. If they want to fly outside their borders long haul they might have to reactivate the old IL86 fleet ,which as far as I know is the only recent Russian aircraft with no Western components,(outside of the even older T154M and IL76...)
What is frustrating is that Rosaviatsiya (their CAA) was getting better and better the last years, taking the lead in improving Safety, modernizing ATC to top standards ( better than in the US ) , all this stopped in their tracks.
Aeroflot and S7 may shortly cease to exist in their current form , hardly thinkable for the Russian economy, so a solution to the conflict and return to some for of normality in the not too distant future is the only way out for them. Hoping someone higher up realizes this.

Liffy 1M
20th Mar 2022, 21:42
The State for both , just like in Iran , as long as you fly inside your own country , your own State rules apply. If they want to fly outside their borders long haul they might have to reactivate the old IL86 fleet ,which as far as I know is the only recent Russian aircraft with no Western components,(outside of the even older T154M and IL76...)
What is frustrating is that Rosaviatsiya (their CAA) was getting better and better the last years, taking the lead in improving Safety, modernizing ATC to top standards ( better than in the US ) , all this stopped in their tracks.
Aeroflot and S7 may shortly cease to exist in their current form , hardly thinkable for the Russian economy, so a solution to the conflict and return to some for of normality in the not too distant future is the only way out for them. Hoping someone higher up realizes this.

The Il-86 was withdrawn from use in the early 2000s and I imagine most have been scrapped by now. Very few Tu-154s remain active, as far as I know, and the potential to reactivate such types in any numbers must be slim to none.

WillowRun 6-3
21st Mar 2022, 12:44
I know this isn't a forum for Public International Air Law, or policy or diplomacy, but . . .
the next ICAO Triennial Assembly convenes this autumn, in Montreal. After MH17.... then the air piracy of Ryan Air 4978 by Belarus..... and with the - sorry, can't locate a better term in my SLF/attorney lexicon - de-internationalizing of the Russian aviation sector, can the Member State be treated by ICAO as if the Assembly will be business as usual?

Not strictly as a sanction for armed aggression, for provoking on purpose massive displacement of civilians, for alleged deliberate infliction of civilian casualties, though those each would be good reasons. I'm wondering about the..... the spectacle of a State that took a fire axe to international rules and norms of civil aviation, but still having the privilege that attends to being a leading participant of ICAO.

Is it time to keep the official language and find a way to sideline or even suspend the State? (Yes, I'm hortified by Russia's War Movie enough to ask this.)

PAX_Britannica
21st Mar 2022, 17:13
The Il-86 was withdrawn from use in the early 2000s and I imagine most have been scrapped by now. Very few Tu-154s remain active, as far as I know, and the potential to reactivate such types in any numbers must be slim to none.

Rostec is talking about restarting/ramping up production of Tu-204 and Il-96. I guess they expect to be a pariah state for some years.


https://www-interfax-ru.translate.goog/business/829745?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en

ATC Watcher
21st Mar 2022, 18:42
Rostec is talking about restarting/ramping up production of Tu-204 and Il-96. I guess they expect to be a pariah state for some years.
]I thought the IL96 and Ty204/214 production stopped after only 30 or so and in both cases and only 15 or so are still flying nearly all for the Russian Government. ( source Wikipedia) And if my memory is correct the Ty201/214 has western avionics, but OK ,that can ne changed if the build new aircraft. But than mean years to bridge the gap. As to the long term pariah State : is Russia seriously considering not flying internationally for many years and turning into a very large North Korea ?

250 kts
22nd Mar 2022, 16:44
P4-BDL which is reputedly Abramovich's B787 was doing some very strange things back in December according to FR24 history. It looks like it's settled in Dubai at present.

Big Pistons Forever
23rd Mar 2022, 04:04
Considering how long the 737 MEL list is I think you could fly one for quite awhile with essentially no component replacement, if you had a high risk tolerance. That and canibalizing a portion of the fleet for show stopper parts may mean internal route networks will be maintained for longer than many are projecting, thereby keeping the illusion that everything is fine.

AN2 Driver
25th Mar 2022, 14:22
]. As to the long term pariah State : is Russia seriously considering not flying internationally for many years and turning into a very large North Korea ?

Don't forget they have a huge territory of their own to cover plus some other states which still allow them in and also have not cancelled their airworthiness certificates. So first of all they will need to assure domestic travel which they appear to be doing. And before the end of the cold war the situation was pretty much like that, they only had Soviet airliners and flew them all over the world. Right now they will be restricted to fly them within their borders and whoever accepts them, but they will continue flying those.

I am not sure how many TU154's e.t.c. have actually been scrapped or are simply in "storage" of some form. Same goes for IL86's. Reactivating them may take some time but should be possible.

601
26th Mar 2022, 06:03
Considering how long the 737 MEL list is I think you could fly one for quite awhile with essentially no component replacement, if you had a high risk tolerance.

It may have a long list of individual items on the MEL, but when you start to get multiple failed items, that list can reduce in scope pretty darn quick and you can find your self on the ground with only a couple of failures .

Big Pistons Forever
26th Mar 2022, 18:00
It may have a long list of individual items on the MEL, but when you start to get multiple failed items, that list can reduce in scope pretty darn quick and you can find your self on the ground with only a couple of failures .

The regulator approves the MEL. Since the airplane can now be registered in Russia, Rosaviatsiya would be the approving authority and I imagine would be under a lot of pressure to be "creative" when it comes to authorizing MEL deviations .....

brak
27th Mar 2022, 15:47
Don't forget they have a huge territory of their own to cover plus some other states which still allow them in and also have not cancelled their airworthiness certificates. So first of all they will need to assure domestic travel which they appear to be doing. And before the end of the cold war the situation was pretty much like that, they only had Soviet airliners and flew them all over the world. Right now they will be restricted to fly them within their borders and whoever accepts them, but they will continue flying those.

I am not sure how many TU154's e.t.c. have actually been scrapped or are simply in "storage" of some form. Same goes for IL86's. Reactivating them may take some time but should be possible.

During the times of USSR there was no commercial airlines there. It was all state aviation. So the issue of cost never came into play (and those TU154s were not quite as far behind in terms of "state of the art"). Even if they could be dug up and revived (which I seriously doubt), flying those things would be prohibitively expensive. Unless, of course, Russian government scraps whatever clepto-capitalism they've built and just goes full on government ran economy (but I doubt that). So no, they will not be flying any of the old Soviet junk. Something like the current situation in Iran is more likely.

ATC Watcher
27th Mar 2022, 20:21
It would seem Aeroflot is still flying Internationally , especially Turkey, UAE, Egypt , Serbia , India, Sri Lanka, etc.. but using Russian owned aircraft to avoid repossession, although it is doubtful some of those countries would actually enforce impounding Russian aircraft. .
According Eurocontrol Network manager , Turkey is now quite heavily used by Russian carriers. and Turkish airlines not only still flies to Moscow, but has increased its number of flights there . So much for NATO sanctions..

Less Hair
28th Mar 2022, 05:01
EU sanctions.

ATC Watcher
28th Mar 2022, 07:46
EU sanctions.
Your are right. NATO just gives the military support to Ukraine. That ambiguity I wanted to highlight, but sanctions themselves indeed are not coming from NATO.

EDLB
28th Mar 2022, 10:43
I thought the leased airplanes where due today March 28th. Any action with returned planes to the lessors so far?

Nowhere near row 1
29th Mar 2022, 05:47
NATO just gives the military support to Ukraine.

Individual countries, give support to various degree. NATO does not. Sorry to split hairs, but this is important.

Spunky Monkey
29th Mar 2022, 07:11
Would it be possible for these Russian registered aircraft to have their maintenance carried out down route in say Egypt by a third party maintenance company?
Or even Air Egypt? (Just picking a name out of the hat).
Would Boeing be able to tell that there had been an increase in inventory usage?
Would there be repercussions for the third party, like having their approved maintenance removed?
Leaving aside the question of being paid, it could certainly circumnavigate the sanctions and adding a pallet or two of parts every round trip could keep the aircraft flying almost indefinitely (while stripping parts from the leased aircraft).

Less Hair
29th Mar 2022, 07:46
Short answer: no.
Practically inherited aircraft could be made to fly without the paperwork but not legally. Everybody doing this would loose all his credentials.

gearlever
29th Mar 2022, 10:01
Russian Civil Aviation Authority Rosaviatsia offline

https://avherald.com/h?article=4f6a8fd6&opt=0

Seat4A
31st Mar 2022, 21:32
https://twitter.com/JTTsteve/status/1509599415002185729?cxt=HHwWgoC-xe6qlvMpAAAA


and an An-124

https://www.cp24.com/russian-plane-stuck-at-pearson-airport-indefinitely-after-closure-of-canadian-airspace-1.5823860

Tsuchiya86
10th Apr 2022, 18:11
So Russian airlines are seemingly flying down the FIR borders to Kaliningrad, and the diplomats recently booted out of BRU went the very long way round north of Norway and Sweden, how is this possible from a flight planning/ATC perspective?