View Full Version : 2022-03-05: Derriford Hospital: Woman dies in helicopter landing incident
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-60626396
Derriford Hospital: Woman dies in helicopter landing incidentA woman in her 80s has died after an incident involving a helicopter that was landing at a hospital.
Devon and Cornwall Police said two people were injured as a HM Coastguard helicopter was landing at Derriford Hospital's helipad in Plymouth earlier.
One person is being treated in hospital while the second person, a local woman in her 80s, has since died.
The Maritime and Coastguard Agency said the helicopter was flying a patient to hospital at the time of the incident.
The Air Accidents Investigation Branch said it was aware of the incident and had deployed a team to investigate.
An initial investigation is being conducted by Devon and Cornwall Police assisted by a number of partner agencies.
The force said it was "believed that two members of the public were injured as a HM Coastguard helicopter was landing at the helipad at Derriford".
Police said the family of the woman who died had been contacted.
A Department for Transport spokesperson said: "Our deepest sympathies go out to those affected by the incident at Derriford Hospital.
"It would be inappropriate to comment while the incident is investigated by Devon and Cornwall Police and the Air Accidents Investigation Branch."
A spokeswoman for the Maritime and Coastguard Agency said a HM Coastguard helicopter was flying a patient to Derriford Hospital and "as it landed, there was an incident which is now being investigated by the police and Air Accidents Investigation Branch".
"Our thoughts are with all those affected by today's incident," she added.
Be interesting to hear of the circumstances that caused the injuries. Rotor wash causing falls?
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/968x745/v8_b0647f01de1165a729ae9d3fb72f9231535210c4.png
jolihokistix
4th Mar 2022, 23:42
Finally clicked on the link and read the whole article, but no information anyway.
jimf671
4th Mar 2022, 23:48
You may just be able to tell from that pic that this is a partially elevated pad serviced by ramps.
Further illustrations here. Derriford accident: Plymouth Live. (https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/woman-dies-after-incident-involving-6757351)
jolihokistix
5th Mar 2022, 00:25
Could be a problem with car park design, anything really.
kev_laline
5th Mar 2022, 05:06
Well what happened?
Hard landing?
Someone walked into a tail rotor?
Cyberhacker
5th Mar 2022, 05:55
A woman in her 80s has died after an incident involving a helicopter that was landing at a hospital.
Devon and Cornwall Police said two people were injured as a HM Coastguard helicopter was landing at Derriford Hospital's helipad in Plymouth earlier.
One person is being treated in hospital while the second person, a local woman in her 80s, has since died.
The Maritime and Coastguard Agency said the helicopter was flying a patient to hospital at the time of the incident.
The Air Accidents Investigation Branch said it was aware of the incident and had deployed a team to investigate.
An initial investigation is being conducted by Devon and Cornwall Police assisted by a number of partner agencies.
The force said it was "believed that two members of the public were injured as a HM Coastguard helicopter was landing at the helipad at Derriford".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-60626396
The inference from all of this is that this involved third parties, not the on-board patient(s) :(
N707ZS
5th Mar 2022, 06:24
Do the Coast Guard operate the S92 down there.
Yes, S-92 - not the RN Sea King as the lazy journos have pictured.
Only 7 years out of date!
The news pic showing the Sea King says 2015 !
Uplinker
5th Mar 2022, 08:57
Looks like the pad prevents the public getting too close to the helicopters, but maybe down-wash caught the victims?
Also says the pad was built to take all types of helicopter used, including SAR and military.
Tartiflette Fan
5th Mar 2022, 09:17
Well what happened?
Hard landing?
Someone walked into a tail rotor?
"A woman in her 80s has died after a coastguard helicopter blew her off her feet in a downdraft while landing at a Plymouth hospital, according to a relative. "
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10579841/Woman-80s-dies-HM-Coastguard-helicopter-lands-hospital-helipad.html
andrasz
5th Mar 2022, 10:07
There must be some journalistic award for such articles. 250 words, and not a single one giving any clue as to what actually happened...
Pilot DAR
5th Mar 2022, 10:15
It wouldn't be the first time that words were written to validate a headline, and did not!
drichard
5th Mar 2022, 11:43
Local rag say an elderly lady and her niece were blown over in the car park (by the downdraft)
Sadly the elderly lady has passed away, her niece is receiving hospital treatment
Family statement to the press: https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/plymouth-helicopter-death-gran-jean-6758096
212man
5th Mar 2022, 11:49
Well what happened?
Hard landing?
Someone walked into a tail rotor?
Walking into an S92 or AW189 tail rotor really takes some doing!
A 'hard landing' that kills people, is generally called a crash.
nevillestyke
5th Mar 2022, 12:16
Local rag say an elderly lady and her niece were blown over in the car park (by the downdraft)
Sadly the elderly lady has passed away, her niece is receiving hospital treatment
Family statement to the press: https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/plymouth-helicopter-death-gran-jean-6758096
Nice big airfield available, only 600yds from the helipad.
DaveReidUK
5th Mar 2022, 12:41
Derriford Hospital's helipad is surrounded on two sides by public roads and on the other two by the hospital car park, having been moved in 2015 from a previous location not usable at night.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1211x1479/plymouth_hospital_helipad_445f0d13d8cb3e7708df95e6bf74631995 9bb8e2.jpg
It would be interesting to see the risk assessment that would no doubt have been done at the time.
jimf671
5th Mar 2022, 13:58
The ITV online report currently gives the most detail about this sad event.
ITV - Derriford accident. (https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2022-03-05/woman-dies-in-coastguard-helicopter-landing-incident-at-hospital)
When compared to the routine air ambulance visits there is not much to choose between S-92A and AW189 downwash. These are not the largest visitors as there is a report on a Merlin having landed there. It appears to me that the shape of the pad and the surrounding ground is more complex than most ground level helipads and there is a possibility that may have played a role in what seem to be TWO accidents resulting from the same hazard.
Whatever the details, having sat through a number of reports and presentations about people being blown over to their deaths by helicopters, I hope that this is the moment that more people in the UK, and elsewhere, take this hazard more seriously. When I write 'more people', I mean the CAA, the MCA, aircraft operators, local authority planners and hospital management. (In my experience, SAR Commanders have been particulary attentive to the hazard their downwash produces during take-offs and landings. However, the whole point of our national SAR regulations is that it shifts the risk profile for the benefit of the person rescued.) At SMR, and our friends at MREW & MRI, this hazard is already taken extremely seriously and it is thoroughly briefed for and trained for whenever possible.
Ambient Sheep
5th Mar 2022, 14:01
The Beeb has now published an updated version of the story (with a different URL, surprisingly for them: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-60630871 ( [url)) with the following added details:
An 87-year-old woman who died during a helicopter landing was blown over while walking on a footpath, police said.
Devon and Cornwall Police said it was continuing to investigate the incident at Derriford Hospital on Friday.
The "down draft" from the landing helicopter caused the woman, from Plymouth, to be blown over, the force added.
Another woman, also in her 80s, suffered a broken pelvis and remains in hospital in a stable condition.
The HM Coastguard helicopter, which was landing at the helipad at the hospital at about 11:20 GMT, was carrying a casualty linked to a separate incident.
"Whilst the helicopter was in the process of landing on the helipad, the down draft caused one member of the public, an 87-year-old woman from the Plymouth area who was on near-by footpath, to be blown over", Det Insp Hodges said.
She suffered a serious head injury and died at Derriford Hospital in Plymouth.
The other injured woman was in the car park when it is believed the down draft also caused a car door to slam shut while she was getting out of the vehicle, Devon and Cornwall Police said.
EDIT: Just beaten by Jim's ITV version!
20driver
5th Mar 2022, 14:47
Derriford Hospital's helipad is surrounded on two sides by public roads and on the other two by the hospital car park, having been moved in 2015 from a previous location not usable at night.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1211x1479/plymouth_hospital_helipad_445f0d13d8cb3e7708df95e6bf74631995 9bb8e2.jpg
It would be interesting to see the risk assessment that would no doubt have been done at the time.
It would indeed. No mention of what the incoming flight was for. The use of Medivac helicopters in the US is out of control. Seems 50 % of operations are non critical patient transport from facility A to facility B.
We had a crash in CO a few years ago in a hospital parking lot. The chopper was headed to a demo at a Boy Scout Camp.
jimf671
5th Mar 2022, 18:05
Nice big airfield available, only 600yds from the helipad.
If TallSAR were here I expect he could enlighten us on that matter.
jimf671
5th Mar 2022, 18:09
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1211x1479/plymouth_hospital_helipad_445f0d13d8cb3e7708df95e6bf74631995 9bb8e2.jpg
Or this might work better.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/420x552/danger_14050168a2cd3f63cda45ddf735944cd97fdd9e1.jpg
ShyTorque
5th Mar 2022, 18:59
Tragic all round. As well as the relatives of the deceased and the injured person, I can well imagine that the helicopter crew will be devastated by this.
Bravo73
5th Mar 2022, 19:09
Nice big airfield available, only 600yds from the helipad.
Is that the 'nice big airfield' which was shut in 2011?
pilotmike
5th Mar 2022, 19:51
Devon and Cornwall Police said it was continuing to investigate the incident at Derriford Hospital on Friday.
The "down draft" from the landing helicopter caused the woman, from Plymouth, to be blown over, the force added.
That's very unkind. There was no need whatsoever for more force to be added, given the circumstances.
nevillestyke
5th Mar 2022, 21:38
Is that the 'nice big airfield' which was shut in 2011?
Mothballed but plenty of open space to have a landing site, with no pedestrians. You could have a helipad there, if it wasn't so desirable for housing development.
Seems an exceptionally tight spot shoehorned into the hospital car park some time around 2015. I wonder what controls around it they have when aircraft arrive or depart. Notably the closest point on the public road, hard up against the helipad, is a bicycle lane, wonder if anyone put two and two together when that was designed.
DuncanDoenitz
5th Mar 2022, 23:04
Nice big airfield available, only 600yds from the helipad.
Around 10 minutes pushing a gurney.
Sad event.
Sorting out a safe distance from a rotor for wash is an interesting analysis. Doing a measurement of flow from an established hover is straightforward. Add winds, and that becomes a bit more interesting, with T/R interactions. But that isn't the highest flows that can occur from the rotor. Taking a deceleration into a hover if done at heavy weights, and with any tailwind will generally give a large amount of recirculation through the rotor disk, as the ground effect comes into play. I would think that could exceed the steady-state hover outflow velocities that are developed from the added inflows from recirculation. The hover case could achieve the same sort of outflows as the deceleration case if there are features that result in increased recirculation. For picking up into the hover, the ground effect starts off as a benefit reducing the power required but dissipates the higher the hover becomes. The increase in power required to commence translation in zero wind is less than 5% last time I looked. Power required is a 5th order polynomial for the hover through translation to Vne, and I guess it is for the decelerating case as well, except that the power requirement in the deceleration has a larger spike from steady-state compared to entering ETL in acceleration. Just a musing, but it suggests that doing an evaluation of a rotor wake effect HLS THA for pedestrians, tarps, etc is probably more arbitrary than an exact science. A downwind, confined space with buildings modifying the outflow would probably give quite a lot of additional wash.
Still a sad event
thechopper
6th Mar 2022, 16:39
On a scheduled arrival one could have the police or fire brigade in attendance . Should not be too difficult to arrange in this day and age. Worked for us in the 80's.
We called that teamwork.
Bell_ringer
6th Mar 2022, 16:54
It doesn’t take much for an elderly person in their 80’s to fall over. There are many fall related fatalities or serious injuries that occur at home, before you even consider the contribution downwash can make.
Before leaping to conclusions, this may have been avoidable or it may just be very bad luck.
How many people pay attention to level crossings? I doubt a helipad would be treated with much more attention.
You can’t protect everyone, all the time. Some times people have to take responsibility for themselves.
Police presence might be adequate for the public road; the large car park that wraps around the helipad (out of which it was fashioned) would be more difficult for them to manage. Apparently one of the serious casualties was injured by their parked car door being violently blown back against them as they got in or out.
jimf671
6th Mar 2022, 17:38
On a scheduled arrival one could have the police or fire brigade in attendance . Should not be too difficult to arrange in this day and age. Worked for us in the 80's.
We called that teamwork.
Since then the walls of the silos have been elevated and reinforced by a hundred million pages of risk assessments and gdpr policy. :ugh:
MechEngr
7th Mar 2022, 00:03
What a surprise - I guessed that a 100 foot radius would be easily safe. It's 100 foot from the center of the pad to the main road. It's 150 feet from the pad to the hospital access road. It's 50 feet to the cars.
Thank goodness they saved a few dozen parking spaces and it only cost one woman her life.
John Eacott
7th Mar 2022, 02:26
Melbourne's The Alfred helipad had three pedestrian incidents, and following this one (https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/occurrence-briefs/2021/aviation/ab-2021-028/) a further two were identified at other sites. All 3 at The Alfred involved an AW139.
ATSB Report AB-2021-028
What happenedOn 28 October 2021 at about 1550 local time, an AgustaWestland AW139 helicopter was conducting a landing at The Alfred hospital helipad, with two crew on board. The crew approached the helipad from the west, using a steep approach profile aligned with Commercial Road.
During the approach, a pedestrian walking along Commercial Road, about 50 m west of the helipad, was blown over by rotor wash from the helicopter which resulted in serious injuries. The pedestrian was taken to The Alfred hospital for treatment.
The helicopter crew were unaware that downwash from the landing had resulted in any injury to the pedestrian.
The Alfred helicopter landing site is located on an elevated platform approximately 8 m above Commercial Road, a publicly accessible thoroughfare with both vehicular and foot traffic. This design is unique in Australia, exposing public vehicles and pedestrians to the possibility of helicopter downwash on landing.
The ATSB has received reports of 5 rotor wash events at various hospital helicopter landing sites since 2016. Of these, 3 occurred at The Alfred hospital helicopter landing site and all involved AW139 helicopters.Safety actionThe operator immediately ceased operations to The Alfred hospital helicopter landing site following the incident. Before re-commencing operations at the helipad, the operator:
reduced the maximum number of helicopters on the helipad from two to one, removing the requirement to hover taxi away from the centre of the helipad
implemented pedestrian marshalling procedures for all helicopter movements, so that operations will only occur when no pedestrians are within 30 m of the helipad.
Further, The Alfred hospital has engaged a helipad consultant to review the design of the helipad.Safety messageHelicopters produce significant main rotor downwash, especially during hover taxi, take-off and while approaching to land. It is important that the risk of downwash related injuries, either by direct exposure or by being struck by loose items, be assessed prior to using a helicopter landing site (HLS).
As pilots have limited ability to reduce rotor downwash during these phases of flight, securing loose items in the vicinity of the HLS and keeping people a safe distance away are the most effective ways of preventing injury.About this reportDecisions regarding whether to conduct an investigation, and the scope of an investigation, are based on many factors, including the level of safety benefit likely to be obtained from an investigation. For this occurrence, no investigation has been conducted and the ATSB did not verify the accuracy of the information. A brief description has been written using information supplied in the notification and any follow-up information in order to produce a short summary report, and allow for greater industry awareness of potential safety issues and possible safety actions.
TLDNMCL
7th Mar 2022, 07:40
An awful outcome for all involved, the loss of an innocent life and serious injury to another whilst well intentioned people were attempting to help another is a cruel irony.
As mentioned in an earlier post, it's a fair bet that the SAR/Helimed crew have not been sleeping too well since.
Fit for purpose comes to mind - surely seasoned helicopter operators, aero dynamicists and engineers should have a say when it comes to platform design, just because there's a bit of a gap doesn't mean it's a good place to thump a powerful helicopter down onto.
Ref. DaveR's post showing the "no landings after dark" notice, although not directly relevant to this horrible situation, it illustrates that warning notices are plastered all over everything now, so much so that people are either oblivious to them or simply can't be bothered to read them; they only serve as arse covering for the service providers/operators.
A number of years ago a study (can't quote the source) concluded that so many people were wearing hi-viz that the impact was lost.
I can't help but think we are in the same situation with warning signs and labels.
There should be nobody (some military excepted out of operational needs, although there is under normal circumstances familiarity training given), without aviation or aero engineering knowledge to be exposed to the risks presented by being close to a powered aircraft of any description while still in turning and burning mode.
Platform positioning and design seems to be the devil in this sad tale.
Is that the 'nice big airfield' which was shut in 2011?
Did the hospital build the pad in 2015 precisely because the adjacent airfield was closed in 2011 ?
diginagain
7th Mar 2022, 09:50
Royal Cornwall Hospital at Truro at has a process in place using security personnel to limit public exposure to movements on the small pad adjacent to ED, while S92 use the larger pad on the outskirts of the site where there is much less public footfall, followed by ambulance transfer.
We used to land at the airfield and be met by an ambulance to transfer the casualty to Derriford - not too much of a faff and it was because the previous HLS at the hospital was too small for Sea King and close to the hospital buildings.
Having an HLS in the middle of a car park is sadly too common as the income from the car parks is so important to the hospitals.
Having security on hand to marshal traffic and pedestrians when a large helo is inbound isn't rocket science and other hospitals manage it.
My thoughts are with the SAR crew, a horrendous ending to what was probably a rewarding SAROp. They were just doing their job which normally involves the saving of life.
Ant T
11th Mar 2022, 11:09
Having an HLS in the middle of a car park is sadly too common as the income from the car parks is so important to the hospitals.
I had to attend Southampton Hospital recently for treatment, and the HLS there is right in the middle of one of the car parks - the pad is marked 14,6t, and cars are parked right under the perimeter net !
The Southampton one was not well thought out - one way in and the same way out (over the cemetery) giving a very poor go around option on arrival and usually a downwind component on departure.
Ironically I see that Benny Hill is buried in the cemetery, perhaps he was part of the design team.......
gipsymagpie
12th Mar 2022, 12:55
The Southampton one was not well thought out - one way in and the same way out (over the cemetery) giving a very poor go around option on arrival and usually a downwind component on departure.
Ironically I see that Benny Hill is buried in the cemetery, perhaps he was part of the design team.......
That very depends on whose landing site directory you use. Each company has its own which could have entirely different approach criteria. I feel this should be part of AAIBs investigation - were there risks identified in one version and not another?
Helipad approaches don't seem to vary much from type to type for PC1, especially in the last 100' or so, so why would different companies have different criteria?
gipsymagpie
13th Mar 2022, 14:14
Helipad approaches don't seem to vary much from type to type for PC1, especially in the last 100' or so, so why would different companies have different criteria?
A Bell 429 goes diagonally for PC1 for a start, an H145 (with the right kit) can do vertical from LDP and an MD902 is far shallower than an EC135. So plenty of variation. And the military don't do PC1 at all. Above 200' there are indeed pretty identical. Below that, not so much.
homonculus
13th Mar 2022, 15:23
I had to attend Southampton Hospital recently for treatment, and the HLS there is right in the middle of one of the car parks - the pad is marked 14,6t, and cars are parked right under the perimeter net !
Before that it was actually the consultants' car park. I landed there and a colleague gave me a consultant parking permit to put in the cab!
The NHS has historically had little interest in and even less knowledge about landing pads. In the past the issues have been location and difficulties with patient transfer - distance, slopes etc etc. As larger aircraft become more common on HEMS this incident may be a wake up call to also review safety
And the military don't do PC1 at all. I must have been dreaming when I was teaching it on AS365 then.............
My point is that whatever profile you fly, I've done 365 and 139, the obstacles at Southampton mean you are going to the pad whether you want to or not.
139 had diagonal or straight in helipad profiles but with buildings in front of you your LDP would have to be very high.
gipsymagpie
13th Mar 2022, 21:19
I must have been dreaming when I was teaching it on AS365 then.............
My point is that whatever profile you fly, I've done 365 and 139, the obstacles at Southampton mean you are going to the pad whether you want to or not.
139 had diagonal or straight in helipad profiles but with buildings in front of you your LDP would have to be very high.
Fair point, I forgot the Dauphin/A109 - most mil guys using the RAF HLS wouldn't have the first clue about PC1 though.
But on your specific earlier point about Southampton, I know at least one version of that HLS description that has 3 ways in and out which are possible due to the types used. But it wouldn't be suitable for a big Heli, hence different versions for different companies / types.
jimf671
14th Mar 2022, 02:27
... ...
The NHS has historically had little interest in and even less knowledge about landing pads. ... ...
Even in a territory where the NHS runs the air ambulance fleet there are persisting problems with HLS for HEMS and SAR at some key locations. :ugh:
Blackfriar
14th Mar 2022, 07:14
It doesn’t take much for an elderly person in their 80’s to fall over. There are many fall related fatalities or serious injuries that occur at home, before you even consider the contribution downwash can make.
Before leaping to conclusions, this may have been avoidable or it may just be very bad luck.
How many people pay attention to level crossings? I doubt a helipad would be treated with much more attention.
You can’t protect everyone, all the time. Some times people have to take responsibility for themselves.
Nice bit of victim blaming. You expect elderly people, worried about their health, treatment, “where do I park, where do I go, am I late” to take responsibility for their safety around aircraft when they have no experience of them at all and then say “may be just very bad luck”. No. This was an avoidable accident. Heads should roll.
OvertHawk
14th Mar 2022, 09:39
Nice bit of victim blaming. You expect elderly people, worried about their health, treatment, “where do I park, where do I go, am I late” to take responsibility for their safety around aircraft when they have no experience of them at all and then say “may be just very bad luck”. No. This was an avoidable accident. Heads should roll.
I am generally someone who takes the view that individual responsibility should be at the fore and that common sense should be applied. I particularly don't like the way that the phrase "victim blaming" gets wheeled out on every possible occasion
In this case however I am inclined to agree strongly with Blackfriar here.
This is a hospital car park which by definition is a place where elderly frail and infirm people will routinely be found. It is simply not reasonable to expect them to be aware of this risk - or even if they are aware of it to respond to it effectively when a helicopter appears on short finals.
If an old lady falls over in her house and bangs her head - then that can be put down as "one of those things"
When she gets knocked off her feet by a helicopter whilst crossing a hospital car park then as Blackfriar says this was an avoidable accident and someone should at least be made to account for it (not the Helicopter crew, but rather whoever within the organisation signed off on the Risk Assessment).
I imagine that this is now an AAIB investigation so that should go a fair way towards opening up the can of worms (unless they limit themselves to the direct aviation aspects and refer the organisational / planning matters to someone else).
Very sad for everyone - Very tough for this crew.
OH
Bell_ringer
14th Mar 2022, 15:11
Nice bit of victim blaming
Nice bit of internet outrage. Now sit down, and take a deep breath before you fall over. :E
The point I was making is that context is important, as are details, and many, myself included, have no clue what risk mitigations have been taken here.
Obviously life shouldn't be lost in a hospital carpark, that's what hospital beds are for.
It is easy to jump on the "burn them at the stake bandwagon", but you should also consider if the individuals contributed to the outcome.
We regularly see people having to be rescued despite them being told that what they are doing is dangerous, people, especially older ones, can be stubborn. Not saying that is the case here, just an observation of human behaviour.
Many variables must intersect for a fatal accident, it is rare for all of them to belong to one party.
We live in a society that is plastered with warnings and health and safety notices, to such an extent they become background noise.
It is sad and unfortunate what happened, and hopefully they can de-risk the environment with greater success to prevent it happening again, preferably without costing more lives by inhibiting a critical service.
Pozidrive
16th Mar 2022, 22:25
....We regularly see people having to be rescued despite them being told that what they are doing is dangerous, people, especially older ones, can be stubborn. Not saying that is the case here, just an observation of human behaviour.....
You're not getting this, are you. This was a member of the public, in a public place, doing nothing dangerous.
John Eacott
19th Apr 2022, 04:51
Melbourne's The Alfred helipad had three pedestrian incidents, and following this one (https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/occurrence-briefs/2021/aviation/ab-2021-028/) a further two were identified at other sites. All 3 at The Alfred involved an AW139.
ATSB Report AB-2021-028
A bit more on the issue here (http://aerossurance.com/helicopters/hems-hls-downwash-aw139/?fbclid=IwAR07wYBo0PMQNnk1zlwOeuhP6siCt575Th0kz4yZ3os1C5JWyl l9KarwXac). Apparently they currently have a pedestrian controller on the pavement when helicopter movements are occuring, out on Commercial Road.
torqueshow
20th Apr 2022, 04:57
Got to feel for the crew on this one, they must be mortified.
That being said the state of hospital landing sites up and down the country is appalling. Even modern, purpose built sites aren’t always up to task.
Some of the older sites about are desperately in need of repair or replacement, there’s no BO105s landing on them anymore.
For those pads that have been built in car parks or near hospital entrances, pad security needs taking more seriously. Maybe a 4-5t 145 going in isn’t too bad but slap a 13t S92 and you have all sorts of problems.
Pad security awareness and training may stop this in future but sadly so few have a grasp on the destructive effects a helicopter can have.
I’ve even been told of a pad with a brittle bone clinic next to it that had a picnic bench added outside so the patients could watch the aircraft, all about 20ft from the pad and under the flight path, no the pad isn’t elevated…..
For HEMS what is supposed to be the safest part of the flight with guaranteed PC1, it’s not always as safe as it could be for Joe Public.
old,not bold
3rd Nov 2023, 10:30
BBC, and others, reporting an incident at Derriford Hospital, Plymouth (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-60626396)
It set me to wondering how many other approved helipads are adjacent to car parks or areas where the public might be at risk. I'm assuming that there is an approval process by the CAA, at least for public transport operations eg air ambulances.
SimonPaddo
3rd Nov 2023, 10:42
That happened last year, there was an update the other day on the findings of the investigation.
SWBKCB
3rd Nov 2023, 10:48
AAIB update
https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aircraft-accident-report-aar-2-slash-2023-sikorsky-s-92a-g-mcgy
Helicopters used for Search and Rescue and Helicopter Emergency Medical Services (HEMS) perform a vital role in the UK and, although the operators of these are regulated by the UK Civil Aviation Authority, the many helicopter landing sites provided by hospitals are not. It is essential that the risks associated with helicopter operations into areas accessible by members of the public are fully understood by the HLS Site Keepers, and that effective communication between all the stakeholders involved is established and maintained. Therefore, nine Safety Recommendations have been made to address these issues, and these are listed in paragraph 4.1 of this report.
SWBKCB
3rd Nov 2023, 10:49
AAIB report
https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aircraft-accident-report-aar-2-slash-2023-sikorsky-s-92a-g-mcgy
Helicopters used for Search and Rescue and Helicopter Emergency Medical Services (HEMS) perform a vital role in the UK and, although the operators of these are regulated by the UK Civil Aviation Authority, the many helicopter landing sites provided by hospitals are not. It is essential that the risks associated with helicopter operations into areas accessible by members of the public are fully understood by the HLS Site Keepers, and that effective communication between all the stakeholders involved is established and maintained. Therefore, nine Safety Recommendations have been made to address these issues, and these are listed in paragraph 4.1 of this report.
SimonPaddo
3rd Nov 2023, 10:56
There you go, thanks SWBKCB
ericferret
3rd Nov 2023, 11:00
That happened last year, there was an update the other day on the findings of the investigation.
Very sad outcome. Downwash can easily catch out those familiar with it.
I watched a Bond Helicopters pilot standing by the tail of a u/s BO 105 blown onto the catch net around the helideck in the Viking Field as a 365C came in to land.
70 foot drop straight into the North Sea in February. Very lucky not to go over..
old,not bold
3rd Nov 2023, 11:09
Yes, many thanks to all above, that's answered the question comprehensively!
I didn't spot the date on the article; the link to it appeared when I opened up the BBC Home page this morning.
212man
3rd Nov 2023, 15:18
The operator had been flying out of Newquay with Sikorsky S-92A helicopters (S92) in the SAR role since 1 January 2016. Prior to this, SAR flights around the UK were operated by the military
I think the author could do with a history lesson!
Tartiflette Fan
4th Nov 2023, 00:14
]Very sad outcome. Downwash can easily catch out those familiar with it.[/b]
I watched a Bond Helicopters pilot standing by the tail of a u/s BO 105 blown onto the catch net around the helideck in the Viking Field as a 365C came in to land.
70 foot drop straight into the North Sea in February. Very lucky not to go over..
To me this seems to be an astonishing attempt to minimise the events . Why are there no comments such as :
" Appalling lack of professional sfaeguards "
"Neither hospital nor flying bodies taking responsibility "
"Solping shoulders evident eveywhere "
"This danger prevalent throughout the UK because of inadequate regulation "
HeliComparator
4th Nov 2023, 00:23
I think the author could do with a history lesson!
There seems to be a general feeling that AAIB are wonderful, but my experience of a few AAIB reports on helicopter accidents is that they are sometimes quite flawed and undeserving of such respect. The same applies to AAIB reports on my other area of knowledge - glider accidents. Perhaps AAIB are wonderful when it comes to their day job of fixed wing powered aircraft accident reports, but I remain a bit sceptical.
Prior to this, SAR flights around the UK were operated by the military Prior to this, most SAR flights around the UK were operated by the military
There, fixed:ok:
Flyingshamrock23
4th Nov 2023, 09:16
Very sad outcome. Downwash can easily catch out those familiar with it.
I watched a Bond Helicopters pilot standing by the tail of a u/s BO 105 blown onto the catch net around the helideck in the Viking Field as a 365C came in to land.
70 foot drop straight into the North Sea in February. Very lucky not to go over..
wow 😧🫣 yeah downwash is not something to mess about with !!
Cornish Jack
4th Nov 2023, 11:16
Only just noticed this and, particularly the references to Southampton. Back in the day, we were tasked for a patient transfer from the IoW to Southampton Chest Hospital. We didn't have the site details so queried with them and were told that the helipad was on a golf course and the plods etc. would be there with blues on. Arrived in general area over a golf course with no sighting, so we put down near the clubhouse and I went in to do a 999 query. Got directions and eventually spotted the plod lights ... sitting alongside a CLOCK golf patch !!... thankfully, Whirlwind acceptable ! :rolleyes:
griffothefog
4th Nov 2023, 15:52
Search for city hospital Truro helipad, we used to land the Bolkow there for serious cases back in the late 80’s…..
Postage stamp in a built up area, risk assessment not invented back then 🤭
That’s great. Go and kill as many members of the public as you like and nobody worked out it might be an issue!
Because there wasn't an issue - small HLS but small helicopter with relatively low downwash. It's only since we started using ever bigger helicopters that there has been a problem.
Take Derriford for example, it used to have a small pad right next to the hospital but we had to land in the Sea King at what was Plymouth airport because of the weight loading limits and the downwash.
Swansea Morriston has a big pad but it is built over a car park with pedestrians often milling around. Decent security can alleviate most issues but how many hospitals have 24-7 staff available for that?
roger4
5th Nov 2023, 11:45
To me this seems to be an astonishing attempt to minimise the events . Why are there no comments such as :
" Appalling lack of professional sfaeguards "
"Neither hospital nor flying bodies taking responsibility "
"Solping shoulders evident eveywhere "
"This danger prevalent throughout the UK because of inadequate regulation "
There are no judgemental comments such as those you suggest because the AAIB's remit is to delve into the factual aspects of what happened, rather than to apportion blame. Blame is the remit of the Coroner and/or Police/HSE investigation.s
Ivor_Bigunn
5th Nov 2023, 16:57
I agree with others that this seems to be a weak report.
It was a fatal accident, involving a member of the public who was minding their own business!
But to be fair, the full report is a lot better than the summary.
But it's Safety Recommendations are all about reviewing this and that, rather than mandating any changes.
So it recommends :
"It is recommended that NHS England Estates review all existing hospital helicopter landing sites for which it has responsibility against the latest guidance and instigate appropriate actions to minimise the risk of injury from downwash to uninvolved persons."
"It is recommended that the UK Civil Aviation Authority, in conjunction with the Onshore Safety Leadership Group and the relevant NHS organisations in the UK, develop and promulgate enhanced risk management guidance for hospital helicopter landing sites, and provide information on the range and use of potential mitigations for the protection of uninvolved persons from helicopter downwash."
etc, etc.
But a Review could just be a 10 minutes exercise by anybody. And "Minimise Risk" is subjective.
It would be stronger to say that there should be established Safety Zones around all Hospital Helipads, of X meters diameter, and wardens should ensure that the public are excluded during heli ops, etc.
IB
Radgirl
5th Nov 2023, 17:36
NHS Estates simply has not got anyone with the knowledge or skills on site to make an assessment
NHS Estates simply has not got anyone with the knowledge or skills on site to make an assessment
They could give me a job to do that:)
PPRuNeUser0211
6th Nov 2023, 11:40
NHS Estates simply has not got anyone with the knowledge or skills on site to make an assessment
As Crab says - a pretty simple solution exists - plenty of companies out there capable of providing the assessment. The key thing is identifying that you don't have the knowledge or skills in the first place, then making the leap to getting someone in who does.
jimf671
6th Nov 2023, 21:05
This is more than a middle management matter involving rewriting a couple of policies that will be filed and never seen again. It is a top level matter about resources and how safe we want our country to be.
Around here, air ambulance flying started in about 1931. 705 Sqn FAA forever stamped the helicopter as tool for saving lives into the imagination of the British people on 31st January 1953. RAF SAR helicopters started operating from RMB Chivenor in 1956. FAA dedicated SAR helicopters started operating from RNAS Culdrose in 1974. Helicopter SAR ops were normal in the district when the current Derriford Hospital site was opened in 1981. Cornwall Air Ambulance started operations in 1987.
Just how stupid do you have to be to stick your head in the sand and imagine that aviation and emergency medicine will not be inextricably linked forever?
NHS management stupid.
Local authority stupid.
Government minister stupid.
We need to stop giving important jobs to stupid people.