GCSE and A levels for BA Sponsorship [Archive]

John744

21st Jan 2001, 17:57

I am 15 years old, and I've wanted to be a BA pilot for a long time now. Right now I'm concentrating on my GCSE'S but I'm worried that I might be doing to little. I'm doing only 7. I'm hoping to make up for this shortage by doing 4 Alevels (maths, physics, geography and music). Is this a good combination for BA's scheme?
Will 7 high grade GCSE's really matter instead of 11 or 12 high grade GCSE'S????
If someone could give me some useful advice,
thankyou very much. John

4DME

21st Jan 2001, 20:07

Hello,

The BA eligibility checklist only stipulates that you have 5 GCSE's at grade C or above (must include Eng. Lang., MA, and a SCI). So obviously doing 7 is quite acceptable as long as you achieve the 5 C's or above including these subjects.

May i ask why you are only sitting 7 subjects? If you can only cope with sitting 7 GSCE's then don't consider doing 4 A levels - BA only require 2 at grade C or above. It is far better to achieve 3 solid grades than compromising with 4 average grades.

However, to impress it is certainly wise to aim higher than the minimum requirements (since it will be your education that determines whether you are selected for assessment) - remember the scheme is very competitive.

As far as A level subjects go: study what you're best at an most interested in. Maths and physics will not necessarily give you an advantage, and BA only stipulate core subjects. However, remember the criteria BA address, such as a head for figures.

Beyond the initial assessment stage your education will become less and less pertinent to the BA selection process. They will be looking for communication skills, and other qualities.

Also, expect that you will probably find yourself (like a lot of us) studying at degree level whilst you wait for your 12 months to conclude before re-applying to the scheme.

To briefly summerise then: an education is only one criteria BA consider however, you'll need (probably) those seven GCSE's to be at grades A/B, and THREE A levels at A/B, to be considered for initial assessment. Beyond initial assessment BA will look beyond your qualifications.

My advice is get your head down and get seven GCSE's at grade A*, then pick 3 A'levels (if you can cope with Maths then great) and study them to grade A. But don't neglect the need to participate in activities that show you have got the aptitdude and that you are an extremely avid wannabe.

I was invited for assessment having 10 GSCEs (8 A's, 2 B's) and A levels in Geog, Maths, Physics at ABB respectively.

Take advantage of your age and really dedicate yourself to achieving your goal. In my view, you've got nothing to worry about. Go for it!

All the best, and hope i helped.
Ed. :)

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"There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots."

John744

21st Jan 2001, 20:38

Thanks a lot.
May I ask, did you get through the BA selection process? Surely, for many years to come, BA are going to be in need for many more pilots because of more aircraft. Will this make it any more competitive? Right now, it can't be extremely hard to get in?? As long as you fit the requirements and pass the tests?
I can easily cope with extra GCSE's but my school is very music orientated so they want you to practice a lot etc. I'm very good at music, it can be a back up to flying I hope. Do you think skills involved with music help in ANY way with flight training? Well, ever since I heard of this site, I didn't know of many people wanting to become civilian pilots. I must be wrong then....
bye

TPuk

21st Jan 2001, 20:46

Hi John,

I'm very interested to know why you are only doing 7 GCSE's. I know that the number of GCSE's taken varies greatly between schools. Indeed, my school enters students for 10 GCSE's, yet another school only a mile away only enters it's pupils for 9.

The discrepancies are usually found in the core subjects, especially English and the Sciences.

My school enters students for the science "double award" - whereby students sit three seperate papers, each of which has an equal mixture of Physics, Chemistry and Biology.
These three papers are then marked, the grades averaged, and your result equals two GCSE's.
For example, if you get an A* in one paper, an A in the next, and a B on the final paper, you will end up with two GCSE's in science at grade A.

Comparatively, a friend of mine sat three science papers, one in each disipline, and ended up with three separate grades in the three core science subjects.

With regards to English, in your above post are you combining English Language with English Literature? And what about English Speaking and Listening? The first two are separate GCSE grades with separate papers. The third is a GCSE "extra", which is not an actual GCSE in itself, but an aditional award.

Do you do "Humanities", or three separate GCSE's in History, Geography and R.E?

So as you can see, the many different exam boards all use different methods of classification in the exam system. Therefore just because you have "only" 7 GCSE's does not automatically mean you have done less work then someone with 10 or 11.

With regards to your choice of A-levels, if you decide to drop one I would offer two different fields of advice.
If you have your heart set on a BA CEP, then drop the music before anything else.
If, however, you are going to be a pilot at whatever cost, regardless of whether you are lucky enough to be accepted onto one of the various CEP schemes, then go for that Music A-level if you prefer it to Physics!

I know a 737 Captain who came up via the self improver route, and she has a degree in Music.

RNAV

21st Jan 2001, 20:49

Hi J744,

Have you bene to the BA website yet ? They've got a good bit on their requirements.

A music background is not going to be of any extra help when learning to fly ....

Other than that, good luck.

RNAV

Professor Longhair

22nd Jan 2001, 00:16

John,

I studied music to A level (Higher in Scotland), then to diploma and finally degree level, worked as a session musician and also came through the BA Cadet scheme (just scraped under the age barrier!) I also do not possess an A-level Maths qualification, but have Physics, Geography, English and Chemistry at pretty good grades.

There is a lot of good advice here, to which I will add my twopence worth if I may; do not give up music lightly, if you are any good at it. It is something you will have your whole life, and will still be around when you've forgotten everything about integral calculus! The study of music to an advanced level requires a high degree of discipline, and it was specifically that discipline that got me through flying college.

There may be other tangible benefits such as co-ordination, ability to think laterally and deal with abstract concepts that one could argue arise from the study, but they are very subjective.

Concentrate on the sciences by all means, but do not drop music without serious consideration. If you get a good grade, it is another string to your bow, and it also will make you stand out a little from the norm at interview.

To put things in perspective, I'm 34, did the interviews about 12 years ago now, and am currently a Captain on the 737 fleet. It can be done, good luck!

[This message has been edited by Professor Longhair (edited 21 January 2001).]

4DME

22nd Jan 2001, 15:19

Hi John,

Na, afraid i didn't pass the aptitudes 1st time round... failed the maths and verbal exams. But i'm not going to make that mistake again!

I say whatever you do; do not quit your music! If you have a talent then keep going. I can't see how it would hinder your prospects as a pilot; only encourage it. Being a good musician takes a lot of dedication - a quality you will need to pass the CEP training. Take the example of our 737 captain!

Although the need for pilots is increasing, i can't see the chances of a prospective CEP getting much better. Definitely not to the extent that it is easy to get a place on the CEP scheme. If the "odd's" are currently 50-1, even if BA's intake doubles (unlikely) then your chances are still pretty slim.

I say continue with your music, work hard on the 7 GCSEs, and then the 3 A levels - in which time you'll be old enough to apply!

All the best :)
Ed.

John744

23rd Jan 2001, 14:24

Thanks a lot guys for the advice.
I would like to know two more things that I haven't seen on the BA Recruitment Site.
Concerning, having a PPL before you start CEP Course. Could it be an advantage? I know I kind of have the money (saved up for a while), but BA might not want someone with this already.
And, if things don't go this way with CEP Scheme. I hope to do the Modules at Oxford Air Training School. Is there chance of getting a good job after the course with only a frozen ATPL. No chance with BA??
Thanks again, John

Mister Geezer

23rd Jan 2001, 17:30

Hi John.

If you want to get a PPL then go for it. This can be a great advantage when applying. However if you do get your PPL then try and avoid building up more than 150 hrs.

If you do the full Integrated Course at Oxford (which is the expensive route), then you could still get into BA straight after your training. However don't let that put you off, at the end of the course, once you have the required licence and experience to apply to BA then there is nothing stopping you. There are BA pilots out there you used to fly for Air-Taxi companies and there are pilots who used to instruct, so as you can see if you pay for the training yourself, then you do not close the door off to BA. With a frozen ATPL that you have got at Oxford, you would be in a very good position to apply for a job with most airlines in the UK.

I wish you all the best!

MG

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...For Radar identification, throw your your jumpseat rider out of the window...

[This message has been edited by Mister Geezer (edited 23 January 2001).]

eeper

23rd Jan 2001, 17:47

John,

All good advice you're getting here. I would especially agree with the advice not to give up your music. Remember that everyone who goes for the aptitude tests and interviews will have passed the basic requirements - you will need something to make you stand out.

Approach 4 A-levels with caution. It will be a hell of a lot of work and could result in you underperforming in all 4. I suspect that BA (and most employers) would prefer someone with 3 good A-Level grades who has also had the time to broaden their horizons outside of academia. Keep the music, it is obviously a passion and is unlikely to be a hindrance. I recall that one of the guys who trained at Oxford when I was there used to be a professional musician. As for Maths and Physics, they used to be a requirement, but are certainly not as essential as some people think. They are, however, good for keeping your basic maths skills current and these are important for the aptitude tests.
Speaking personally, I found Physics the more useful of the two since the CAA technical exams will consist of items such as electrics and hydraulics.

What you should concentrate on is extra-curricular activities that will mark you out as suitable for the cadet scheme. I would recommend that you consider joining the air cadets either within your school or locally. If you go to university (and I strongly suggest that you do!) then join the University Air Squadron or the gliding club. Basically do anything that will show the interviewer that you are in it for the flying.

A PPL will certainly be useful at selection, whether it is useful during the training course is a matter of some debate. I found that it helped me, although I did have a few bad habits to unlearn. The best flying training that you will get however is througgh the University Air Squadron IMHO. That training has stayed with me throughout.

Hope some of this helps, I completed my training with BA about a year ago and I love my job to bits. If you want any more help feel free to ask.

Good luck

eeper

Visual

23rd Jan 2001, 18:35

John744..

You say that it can't be that hard to get in to BA at them moment??? Tell that to the hundreds of people that do not make it through the selection procedure. I know friends who have GCSE's, A-levels, Bachelors and Masters degrees who have not got in at the final interview stage..

Something such as this will never be easy when there are so many people going head to head for the same job. BA are not "desparate" for pilots in fact the indication is that this wave of CEP recruitment will not go on for ever.

The best thing for you to do is to think about the more immediate things such as GCSE's A-levels , degree and build towards the final goal.

Chow

JT8

23rd Jan 2001, 20:52

Sorry John, I have to agree with Visual on this one. BA isn't easy to get into at the moment, and never has or will be.

I just failed my aptitudes but still consider myself a very good sponsorship applicant :rolleyes: :22yrs old, Good Alevels in Maths,Physics and Business Studies, Aeronautical Engineering degree, a years work experience in BA and PPL&Night.

For now, I would concentrate on your A-Levels and get some aviation experience, maybe through work experience and some gliding?

Regarding BA, they are taking less people - intake this year is about 40 cadets less than last. Also, whilst working at BA I met two cadet pilots who were self sponsored at Oxford (Integrated course). They got jobs with frozen ATPL and min hours - They did however have to get a recommendation letter from Oxford and undergo the same selection process (inc. aptitudes etc.)

Good luck, :) :)
JT8

lone eagle

24th Jan 2001, 17:07

There are two things about BA that I do not 'get'. Why is it that they will look at an integrated student out of Oxford and not a modular. At the end of the day if Oxford has an amazing modular pilot who could fly better than any integrated pilot and had a more fitting personality for BA, then BA would not be intersted;they would infact chose the pilot with lesser ability in both flying and life experience(presuming this to be the case). Surely BA have to alter this prejudice. After all both pilots will be in possession of the same licence's. Moreover the mod pilot has shown real determination to succeed. All mod pilots know how hard it is. The only difference that I see is that a mod pilot will pay approx £25K and an integrated pilot approx £48K.

Secondly, If BA does take an integrated pilot then why are they subject to the same aptitude testing as non pilots? Surely they have proven their ability to fly and commitment by passing the CPL,IR,ME,ATPL (frozen), MCC, CRM. Surely these integrated pilots should be assessed on their people skills, life experience etc.

Just one final point, I am not intimating that integrated pilots have less/more ability than anyone else. This situation is hypothetical. I have the greatest respect for anyone who pays for their own training.

John744

24th Jan 2001, 20:28

Thanks again,
the module route at Oxford is a lot cheaper and takes less time. Would BA accept any Module Guys or the integrated ones? Can CEP's start on a big heavy aircraft like the 767 in line training? Do you think the 767 will be around for much longer?
In the first five years in the airline, is the CEP going to be earning that much money because of the huge debt from flight training?
John

JT8

24th Jan 2001, 21:54

John,

I don't know if BA have taken on any guys straight from finishing a modular course. My guess is no.
Regarding aircraft, trainees start off on the 737, A319/320 or B757/767. Crews on the B757 are cross qualified so you can fly both. Just don't expect to fly the 767 very much when you're at the bottom of the seniority list.

Salary wise, I think you pay back 25% of the course costs over a 5year period - Basic salary (less flight pay and allowances) is around 22K for a cadet and 36K (ish-I think!) for a self sponsored recruit.

Lone Eagle - Couldn't agree with you more. I can't get my head around the fact that airlines seem consider low hour integrated students for jet jobs, but the modular guys tend to always start on the turboprops (If I'm wrong please correct me).
As you said, the main difference is the money the student has paid, and this does not reflect his/her abilities. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

Happy Flying
JT8

eeper

25th Jan 2001, 05:34

John,

It's unlikely that any new cadets will be given the 757/767 on joining the BA. The fleet reduction is underway and, as far as I'm aware, there are no new courses for those types. If you get in you will join on the A320/319 at LHR, Airbus or 737 in the regions or whatever exists at the time at LGW. You are then type frozen for 5 years, although it is possible to change types before your freeze is up

As for being crippled by debt, don't give it too much concern. The £15000 will be deducted from your salary over 5 years. It is deducted from your pay packet so you never even see it or get a chance to miss it. All that happens is that at the end of 5 years you get a surprise pay rise!!

John744

26th Jan 2001, 15:20

Do you mean, after one or two years, you can switch to long haul 777 flying?
On shorthaul flying, do you guys get much time to see the city or is it back to London again?
Do you have to keep on going back to London, or will BA operate onward flights to other european destinations?
Thanks again

taildragger2

26th Jan 2001, 16:34

Forget it mate.
I tried all the sponsorships in the world after my A-levels and despite good qualifications and an acceptance from the RAF as a pilot I choose to go the self sponsored route. REASONS:

1) At the end of flight school you end up paying it all back anyway or earning a crap salary.

2) What if you don't like it? Your on a contract remember!

The flexibility of self sponsored route is too great to pass up, it sounds bad paying for it yourself but I don't regret it as you have so many doors open to you at the end and YOU can pick where you want to go. For example if you follow the JAA CPL (FI)R route, instruct for a few years, walk out with 1000+ HRS do the ATPL's, I/R + MCC, apply to any airline, get a job(well paid) and you'll be eligible for command alot quicker than any sponsored cadet! HRS = £ therefore £ = : ).

It is possible to get jobs with only 300 hrs but it's rare. Put down the instruments( no offence longhair but gotta get our priorities right) Nice to have as a hobby to stick on your C.V but if your giving it all out commitment one must come above the other, the airlines will reward you more when they see you dedication to aviation over bashing out symphony no whatever! Sort your A-Levels and get saving your pocket money! Do the PPL, Mister geezers spot on! Good luck with BA but if guys with masters degrees are getting turned down as whats his face said be prepared with plan B!

All the best anyway!
...............Tailwinds.

FlyFreeWbe

31st Jan 2001, 02:50

This is very interesting indeed... honestly, the first time I posted one of these I thought I could only post once... :)

May I also ask why you're doing 7 GCSE's,(because I never thought you had a choice of how many you could do)? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif But even though you do...
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">The BA eligibility checklist only stipulates that you have 5 GCSE's at grade C or above</font>
...so then as long as it's above 5 then it shouldn't matter. I sort of thought that too actually, because I've done 9 subjects (10 GCSE's instead of 11) and I thought it would drastically change the way BA would look at me. WRONG...BTW, have you tried writing to BA instead of just checking the website? You get some really cool info from those letters (of course depending on who replies).

About the PPL stuff, don't do it if you can't afford or don't have time for it. Of course I had shared my interest in becoming an Airline Pilot (Definately BA) with my parents and I was shocked to find out what the had intended, (I mean, these lessons are over a £100 each, and I've only done so many) http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gifBut in the end I was glad. If you do go for it, think of it as an advantage when you finally get into BA, finding yourself ahead of your time (so to speak) with others who've barely even touched an aeroplane before.

I take it that you're an extremely dedicated person and you're one who's stuck in his ways (I've wanted to be with BA since I started to think "How does this work?") and hope to probably see you among the throng of others, and me, in the deep end one day. It should be fun.

Final word: If you're really sure this is what you want to do, stick to it. Wasting money is the lowest form of survival.

Hope it works out (for you and I both)

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FlyFreeWbe ~ flying you to your ultimate destination.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=111006

Pandora

31st Jan 2001, 15:03

John,

speaking as someone who passed the BA aptitude tests and is now flying for them in the right hand seat on a LHR based fleet: When you fill in your application form for BA they give you points for various things you have written on it. your GCSEs and A-levels count toward this but are only part of this. Demonstrating that you have an active interest in aviation is inmportant, so is having a life. For example; if you play a musical instrument in an orchestra you are very well equipped to answer one of the longer questions on the application form asking you about your involvement in a team. you can explain how each individual contributes their own sound, and that the orchestra is noticably lacking if one person doen't pull their weight, and that each player has a chance to lead when they play a solo or lead in a concerto.
Ignore the people who have said drop your music and only concentrate on studies. Don't get me wrong, grades are important but not the be all and end all. I failed my A-level maths and still managed to pass the maths aptitude test and get in. I have 3 A-levels, Biology, chemistry and general studies at BCE. I do not have a single grade A at GCSE (they didn't even have A* when I did them). What I got into BA on was being good at selling and horse riding (all you engineers with A at Alevel who didn;t get in - read it and weep), and being very ,very determined.
Good luck John. Hope you succeed, but remember whichever way you do it it is a long hard slog.

Lucifer

31st Jan 2001, 17:00

Sounds like Cheethams or something like that if it's a music schools which limits the number of GCSEs.

I just want to write something which I saw recently, I think on Morgan Stanley Dean Witter's recruitment webpage, which went along the lines of, 'If you meet the required grades, you are academically capable, but what we are interested in in the selection process is examples of how you have excelled outside of the exam hall.' This is particularly true for most jobs for intelligent people nowadays. Varied extra-curricular life is a must, and I would caution you from dropping something which you obviously excel at.

And don't forget it as taildragger says: far better have somebody pay a bit of it than you pay for all your training.

You cannot fly 777s as a new trainee with a new licence in BA until you have the required hours on licence and in company. Two years is a tad optimistic. Try five at an absolute minimum.

eeper

1st Feb 2001, 04:13

John,
The freeze for new cadets is for 5 years, but if the fleet is reducing or if you are needed elesewhere then you may find yourself shifted inside that time. Every year you get to bid for a new posting and you are encouraged to bid even if you are within a freeze. Reason is that if they have to move you then they would rather send you somewhere that you want to go.

On shorthaul we do a variety of daytrips, and 2,3,4 or 5 day trips. On average you will spend about 7 nights away from home per month, although this can be adjusted up or down according to your personal preference. Typically a nightstop will be either an "early " or "late". That is you either arrive mid afternoon and leave at the crack of dawn the next day or you arive in the dead of night, but leave sometime after lunch the next day.

Nightstops do vary in their duration, but on most there is the chance to get out and about and see something of the city. Accomodation for flight crew is generally in the centre of town and of a high standard.

On longhaul you get longer nightstops (usually at least 24 hours), but I haven't graduated to those dizzy heights yet so I couldn't tell you much more about that lifestyle.

Hope this helps or at least whets your appetite!

eeper