Of Ukraine, Russia and QF9

[KRviator]

With the Russkies fart-arsing about in the Ukraine again, the UK CAA looks to have banned any Russian-affiliate aircraft from their skies, whether it is owned, registered or otherwise associated with, their Federation.

Which makes me wonder how long it may be until Russia retaliates against the west and closes their airspace to any nation that has done it to them?

Where does that leave the Leprechaun's flagship Darwin-London routing, given as things stand it spends about 40% of their time over Russian soil?

[morno]

I’m going to guess the speeding up of the PER-LHR route again.

[dr dre]

These days it looks as if going past Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Iran will be the “safe” route.....

[t_cas]

. With the Russkies fart-arsing about in the Ukraine again,

Understatement of the year so far….
It is a brutal reality that VP has jumped completely over the line. (Of sanity)

My thoughts are with the Ukraine citizens and the Russian citizens that are completely against this action.

Qantas will be fine.

[AQIS Boigu]

The Russians need the money from overflight charges.

No change expected

Flown over Afghanistan when the Yanks were still bombing

[FullOppositeRudder]

I’m going to guess the speeding up of the PER-LHR route again.

The problem here is the Western Australian policy on matters relating to the virus. They have a very restrictive hard border policy at present, and it's been very difficult for other Australians to get into WA - much less overseas people. Whilst I'm not sure, I think this is the reason why QF9 and QF1 are exiting and entering Australia via YPDN/Darwin at present.

https://www.wa.gov.au/government/covid-19-coronavirus/covid-19-coronavirus-international-travel

[C441]

Flown over Afghanistan when the Yanks were still bombing
Likewise Iraq, including the last northbound QF DXB-LHR flight over Iraq. As we were about to leave Iraqi airspace a huge ISIL instigated explosion near Mosul lit up the night sky; a reminder to us why Qantas was about to switch to operating over Iran rather than Iraq. Days before this overflights of Iran were out of the question due to sanctions.:rolleyes:

[Max Tow]

BA no longer routing via Russian airspace & Russia reportedly just followed up by banning UK aircraft.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/british-airways-avoiding-russian-airspace-overflights-iag-ceo-says-2022-02-25/

[crewmeal]

So how will BA reroute flights to Tokoyo and Hong Kong? Surely not via Anchorage like the old days. Mind you I loved the time there back on 747-100's

UK aircraft banned from over flying Russia (https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-invasion-uk-flights-banned-from-russian-airspace-and-airports-after-aeroflot-not-allowed-to-fly-to-britain-12551000)

[Capt Fathom]

No doubt it will be profit before safety for most operators. ☹️

[Max Tow]

So how will BA reroute flights to Tokyo and Hong Kong? Surely not via Anchorage like the old days. Mind you I loved the time there back on 747-100's


I think you'll find that BA not currently flying those routes, however SIN (& SYD from end March) will have to route south.

I wonder how many DRW/LHR pax have the faintest idea of routing?

[morno]

I think you'll find that BA not currently flying those routes, however SIN (& SYD from end March) will have to route south.

I wonder how many DRW/LHR pax have the faintest idea of routing?

Probably only once the moving map starts flying over funnily spelt place names in a very northern part of the world :E

[Derfred]

The Australian Prime Minister just criticised Vladimir Putin and announced heavy sanctions against Russia, and wealthy Russians connected to the Russian Government.

Qantas just announced that they would continue to fly QF9 over Russia.

What could possibly go wrong?

[Fairdealfrank]

So how will BA reroute flights to Tokoyo and Hong Kong? Surely not via Anchorage like the old days. Mind you I loved the time there back on 747-100's

Will be a looong flight without a stop at ANC, some aircraft may not have the range.

With the Russkies fart-arsing about in the Ukraine again, the UK CAA looks to have banned any Russian-affiliate aircraft from their skies, whether it is owned, registered or otherwise associated with, their Federation.

Which makes me wonder how long it may be until Russia retaliates against the west and closes their airspace to any nation that has done it to them?

Difficult to tell, Russian Federation makes a lot of money charging for overflight rights, on the other hand, it will make a fortune selling oil and gas to China....

Where does that leave the Leprechaun's flagship Darwin-London routing, given as things stand it spends about 40% of their time over Russian soil?

Probably be OK once Western Australia opens its domestic border, great circle route goes just south of Ukraine (Black Sea).

[blubak]

The Australian Prime Minister just criticised Vladimir Putin and announced heavy sanctions against Russia, and wealthy Russians connected to the Russian Government.

Qantas just announced that they would continue to fly QF9 over Russia.

What could possibly go wrong?
I think the plan to fly QF9 over russia will be just that,A PLAN.

[Ken Borough]

I think the plan to fly QF9 over russia will be just that,A PLAN.

Well, not for the QF1 and QF9 currently in Russian airspace! But…for how much longer?

[Icarus2001]

Why avoid Russian airspace? Avoid the area around the Ukraine by all means, as per FAA Notams etc but the greater part of the Russian FIR is as “safe” as it has been.
Putin has no interest in picking a fight with any other nations by endangering their aircraft. The risk is around Ukraine only.

[C441]

Why avoid Russian airspace?……....
Sanctions and overflight fees revenue when many western countries are trying to minimise any source of finance to the Russian regime.

[KRviator]

IT isn't about the risk of being attacked I was thinking, that the economic cost, ie if EASA bans Russian overflights, etc, then, well, Russian airspace is a major thoroughfare for a lot of Asia-Europe type flights, even QF9 now out of Darwin spends a significant portion over Russian territory. Would Russia in turn close their airspace to everyone who has locked Aeroflot out, thus forcing QF and others into a long-winded route via the Middle East or SE Asia with additional fuel, landing fees etc?

As an example, right now over Russia there's:
AI186 from Vancouver to Delhi
AI174 San Fran - Delhi
ANA224 Frankfurt-Haneda
ANA212 London-Haneda
JAL44 London-Tokyo
KAL082 Chicago - Shanghai
KAL038 Chicago - Seoul
KAL094 Washington - Seoul
And another couple dozen more, not to mention QF9 or QF1 - who has just left Russian airspace.

One would imagine that everyone closing their airspace to Russian aircraft would have much less impact on world air travel than if Russia were to close their airspace to everyone else.

[dr dre]

IT isn't about the risk of being attacked I was thinking, that the economic cost, ie if EASA bans Russian overflights, etc, then, well, Russian airspace is a major thoroughfare for a lot of Asia-Europe type flights, even QF9 now out of Darwin spends a significant portion over Russian territory. Would Russia in turn close their airspace to everyone who has locked Aeroflot out, thus forcing QF and others into a long-winded route via the Middle East or SE Asia with additional fuel, landing fees etc?


If that’s the case in 5 days they can operate unrestricted through Perth, the city they want to operate through and the one they’ll eventually be operating through in 3 months anyway, flying over the now safe area of the Middle East and Southern Europe to LHR and FCO, well away from the Ukraine and Russian airspace. The great circle track from Perth only comes close to some parts of the Black Sea, but they can just make a very minor diversion to the south to stay over Turkey, or stay well south and go over Saudi then Egypt and the eastern Mediterranean. Plenty of airlines flying these tracks on FR24 right now.

[overthewing]

Why avoid Russian airspace? Avoid the area around the Ukraine by all means, as per FAA Notams etc but the greater part of the Russian FIR is as “safe” as it has been.
Putin has no interest in picking a fight with any other nations by endangering their aircraft. The risk is around Ukraine only.
What happens if there's an emergency over Russia and a 787 from a NATO-member country has to land in, say, Novosibirsk? Would you trust Putin with a couple of hundred stranded hostages?

[Max Tow]

What happens if there's an emergency over Russia and a 787 from a NATO-member country has to land in, say, Novosibirsk? Would you trust Putin with a couple of hundred stranded hostages?

Quite so - I certainly wouldn't be happy with a such a long routing with non-Russian diversion points. This of course in addition to any moral considerations of adding overflight revenue to the Russian economy.

Almost all EU countries have announced overflight bans today with turn back of LH & KL flights planned to cross Russian airspace.

[Icarus2001]

What happens if there's an emergency over Russia and a 787 from a NATO-member country has to land in, say, Novosibirsk? Would you trust Putin with a couple of hundred stranded hostages Yes of course, why would you not. You need to look at his moves in Ukraine a little more closely.

[AQIS Boigu]

I recon it will be a non-event from the political side of things if an Indian plane needs to divert Pakistan or a western plane into Tehran with a fire.

ICAO rules are very clear.

[Max Tow]

ICAO rules are very clear.

Sure they are, but remind me why no-one's been flying over Belarus for the last year? ICAO rules didn't stop the Ryanair flight being forced to land & pax abducted in Minsk..

[Sue Ridgepipe]

Just published in The Australian:
Qantas will stop sending its London flights through Russian airspace following similar moves by other carriers amid the worsening conflict in Ukraine.

As recently as Saturday, Qantas confirmed it was maintaining a flight path over northern Russia, more than 800km from the border with Ukraine.

Airlines that operate through the airspace of foreign countries pay a fee to do so and Qantas confirmed it was paying Russia to operate in its airspace.
Qantas’s Darwin-London flights will now fly through the Middle East and southern Europe to the south of Ukraine instead, adding about an hour to the flight time.

“Given the current circumstances and complexities, we’re opting to use one of our alternative flight paths that doesn’t overfly Russia while we continue to monitor this evolving situation,” a Qantas spokesman said.

“We regularly review our flight paths and make any *adjustments we consider prudent.”

The first flight to operate on the alternative route is flight QF2 from London to Darwin, which is due to takeoff on Sunday just before 9pm AEDT.

[tossbag]

Putin has no interest in picking a fight with any other nations by endangering their aircraft. The risk is around Ukraine only.

Like MH17?

[Derfred]

“We regularly review our flight paths and make any *adjustments we consider prudent.”

Obviously not regularly enough.

[Icarus2001]

Like MH17? Which was a mistake by Russian backed Ukraine separatists, not an executive order from Putin.

Mistakes...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_International_Airlines_Flight_752

[tossbag]

Yeah, of course, Putin had nothing to do with it, just a mistake.

[dr dre]

Yeah, of course, Putin had nothing to do with it, just a mistake.

Putin didn't order the deliberate targeting of a Malaysian aircraft flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur for a specific reason. It was reckless use of force in a civilian heavy area. I believe the West calls it "Collateral damage".

As the routing of the flights were well to the north of Moscow I doubt whether there was any risk to the aircraft. But they couldn't be seen paying overflight fees to Putin, and there is an alternative route that will cost them but is doable.

Interestingly at this very moment United Airlines ORD-DEL is over Russia, no real way to avoid it to make direct US to India flights. As well as Finnair, Korean, Japan and Air France and others that are all speaking against Russia in this conflict. It looks as if the PR benefit to not paying Russian overflight fees is weighed against the ability to route your aircraft around it's airspace and still be able to perform direct flights.

[Icarus2001]

Putin is not stupid. What possible motivation is there for him to shoot down a civilian airliner? What does he gain?


The PR benefit? Does that mean the EU will stop buying the Russian gas? No I did not think so. which means...virtue signaling. The new scourge of the western world.
It is partly what got us here, instead of spending time worrying about which comedian is telling unacceptable jokes and what pro noun to use, we should have been anticipating this.
Putin put 30,000 troops on the border nearly a year ago.

[tossbag]

Putin is not stupid. What possible motivation is there for him to shoot down a civilian airliner? What does he gain?

Oh, he's definitely not stupid, far from it. But the west is weak, and getting weaker by the day. Whether he 'ordered' the firing of that missile or not, they fired it under his regime. He's not been held to account and won't be. It's doubtful he'll be held to account over this atrocity while the weak west keeps their fingers crossed for sunny and windy days to keep their Teslas charged and fight over legislation to ensure a male born can cane a women in the swimming pool. But Putin it was that brought MH17 down, argue the technicalities but he's PIC.

[Icarus2001]

I am picking up what you are putting down but I think F up not an actual strategic decision.

[SOPS]

Putin is not stupid. What possible motivation is there for him to shoot down a civilian airliner? What does he gain?


The PR benefit? Does that mean the EU will stop buying the Russian gas? No I did not think so. which means...virtue signaling. The new scourge of the western world.
It is partly what got us here, instead of spending time worrying about which comedian is telling unacceptable jokes and what pro noun to use, we should have been anticipating this.
Putin put 30,000 troops on the border nearly a year ago..

Very well said. Too many people running around worrying about which person to cancel next.

[Derfred]

While you all discuss whether or not it is risky for Qantas to fly its aircraft through Russian airspace at this point in time, Qantas have now conducted a security analysis and decided it is not prudent.

My point was that it took them 4 days to make this decision, and even made a recent announcement that they were continuing to fly in the airspace - which they have just backflipped on.

Qantas historically has been very conservative in avoiding conflict zones (WWII excluded). For example, when MH17 was shot down, from memory, QF had already ceased flight planning through that airspace.

So this recent decision to continue flying in Russian airspace was interesting to me. Especially considering the alternate flight path south of Ukraine appears to be not too many more track miles, and indeed less track miles than the original PER-LHR route. So the original decision to continue flying over Russia was based on a drop-in-the-ocean fuel impost.

The Townsville refueller was predicting back in December that Putin was going to go all-out on Ukraine. This was hardly unexpected. And no, Putin wouldn’t waste an S-500 on a QF B787, but if there happened to be a high ranking Australian official on board when they had to make an emergency landing? Well, we all know what happened in Belarus. Some situations are best avoided.

[Hamley]

.

Very well said. Too many people running around worrying about which person to cancel next.

You guys sound like those old people in the 60s/70s saying we shouldn’t listen to rock and roll because of the devil.

How exactly would all the people who are busy running around ‘cancelling’ take a break and prevent Russia invading Ukraine?

[dr dre]

You guys sound like those old people in the 60s/70s saying we shouldn’t listen to rock and roll because of the devil.

How exactly would all the people who are busy running around ‘cancelling’ take a break and prevent Russia invading Ukraine?

Well said. We could of had a nice thread going about airspace limitations and the benefits and limitations of flying particular routes, yet the usual types came in and for absolutely no reason brought up cancel culture, transgendered people, comedians, climate change and whatever issue they are told to have a sook about by their chosen shock jock that has no relevance to their life or this thread.

I’m a bit over the politicisation of every thread here, we saw it on the Covid threads so let’s not bring it in everywhere. There’s a forum called Jet Blast where you can argue about this stuff to your hearts content.

[Bad Adventures]

Effective immediately, flight path now changed. LHR flights will now over fly the Middle East and Southern Europe adding around 1 hour to the total flight time.

[Chris2303]

Putin is not stupid. What possible motivation is there for him to shoot down a civilian airliner? What does he gain?

No he is not stupid. He is, however, IMHO a megalomaniac who does anything that he thinks is right and killing foreigners is one of those things.

One of the NZ papers had a report yesterday that he has lost the support of the Russian Parliament, but that won't stop him.

[SHVC]

Also been reports there are protest against his invasion. So what support does he have. Now he has made the threat of nuclear attack if he launches one of those it will be on WW3.

[KRviator]

Also been reports there are protest against his invasion. So what support does he have. Now he has made the threat of nuclear attack if he launches one of those it will be on WW3.That's all it is. A threat. No leader is going to launch a nuclear weapon, of any description, these days because they know full well that doing so is to invite a nuclear attack on their own country.

Putin might be egotistical and may have overestimated the ease with which this little skirmish would play out, but he is not stupid. He knows full well the global condemnation that would befall Russia should he launch such an attack, and it wouldn't just be words this time, but likely complete isolation of Russia as a country. But on the opposite side of the coin, were the Ukraine to launch one (if they had any...), I think they would be forgiven for doing so, given they didn't start this kerfuffle.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Build a “wall” around Russia and their mates in China, freeze all international dealings and hope he is overthrown by his own people. The airspace should be treated as unflyable.

[tdracer]

That's all it is. A threat. No leader is going to launch a nuclear weapon, of any description, these days because they know full well that doing so is to invite a nuclear attack on their own country.

Putin might be egotistical and may have overestimated the ease with which this little skirmish would play out, but he is not stupid. He knows full well the global condemnation that would befall Russia should he launch such an attack, and it wouldn't just be words this time, but likely complete isolation of Russia as a country. But on the opposite side of the coin, were the Ukraine to launch one (if they had any...), I think they would be forgiven for doing so, given they didn't start this kerfuffle.

I'm not so sure about Putin - he's showing serious signs of being mentally unstable. It's pretty questionable that a sane person would have launched the invasion, and his threats leading up to it and especially after the invasion was launched really bring his sanity into question.
No telling what someone in his apparent mental state might do as this turns into an unmitigated disaster for both him and Russia. I just hope and pray that if Vlad does elect to play the nuke card, cooler minds will immediately remove him from power.

[SHVC]

Well he destroyed the AN-225, he is capable of anything.

[Icarus2001]

Build a “wall” around Russia and their mates in China, freeze all international dealings and hope he is overthrown by his own people.

No dealings with China, right then, forget shopping for a while, are you wearing anything NOT made in China. When Covid hit we needed masks and PPE for goodness sake. We RELY on what they supply. Not to mention what we SELL them in raw materials.

It's pretty questionable that a sane person would have launched the invasion, His timing and strategy is not indicative of an unstable man. The world is not a friendly warm and fuzzy place, he is doing what is best for Russia, taking back what is theirs and building a buffer from NATO forces.
The US invaded Libya why? Certainly not to help Libya. What about Iraq and those pesky non existent WMD?

Wake up and smell the roses, the Cold War never ended. Russian agents poisoning people in the UK ring a bell?

[tdracer]

The US invaded Libya why?
When exactly did that happen. NATO went after Libya, then had to ask for US assistance.

[Icarus2001]

Actually it wasn’t even NATO to begin with but a “coalition of the willing”. Neither fact alters the basic point, “Western” countries have their share of invading other countries when it suits them. Here have some freedom…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya

[gordonfvckingramsay]

No dealings with China, right then, forget shopping for a while, are you wearing anything NOT made in China. When Covid hit we needed masks and PPE for goodness sake. We RELY on what they supply. Not to mention what we SELL them in raw materials.

Oh my, that will be inconvenient!!
It’s pretty clear what Russia and China are doing. Stopping them won’t be achieved through diplomacy and the only other options are either economic or military. I think most people would think the economic option is most palatable initially, although I do think the military option will be forced upon the world whether we like it or not. These two leaders are not stable people.

The airspace should be closed in any case.

[Icarus2001]

GordonFR…I agree with your assessment. There are two ways to resolve this, either Ukraine surrender territory, all or part to Russia, or there is a land war with Russia. Do you think sleepy Joe and Kamala (here are my pronouns) Harris are up for that? NATO are scared of starting WW3.
So assuming Putin gets all or part of Ukraine, which country is next? Getting close to NATO line here.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1560x2000/02e57130_3005_4acd_938c_e59d07173b3b_f020814da094f7c2d4da9e2 02d830e8ed6d45ad1.png

[tossbag]

It's been made clear if he steps foot in a NATO country that it's on like Donkey Kong.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

It's been made clear if he steps foot in a NATO country that it's on like Donkey Kong.

And it won’t be a multi year war if Putin gets his way, it will be over in about a week.

[oicur12.again]

No dealings with China, right then, forget shopping for a while, are you wearing anything NOT made in China. When Covid hit we needed masks and PPE for goodness sake. We RELY on what they supply. Not to mention what we SELL them in raw materials.

His timing and strategy is not indicative of an unstable man. The world is not a friendly warm and fuzzy place, he is doing what is best for Russia, taking back what is theirs and building a buffer from NATO forces.
The US invaded Libya why? Certainly not to help Libya. What about Iraq and those pesky non existent WMD?

Wake up and smell the roses, the Cold War never ended. Russian agents poisoning people in the UK ring a bell?

An accurate perspective

[tossbag]

I'm a bit over the politicisation of every thread here, we saw it on the Covid threads so lets' not bring it in everywhere. There's a forum called Jet Blast where you can argue about this stuff to your hearts content.

You're a big boy/girl. Don't like it? Don't read it.

Are you forgetting where you are? You're on a social media site, you're on aviation facebook. If you want intelligent, reasoned debate you're in the wrong place.

[Ascend Charlie]

If Putin wants a buffer against NATO, why is he moving west TOWARDS it?

And can you imagine how it would play out if that other lunatic Trump was still Prez, with his erratic finger on the red button.

[Icarus2001]

If Putin wants a buffer against NATO, why is he moving west TOWARDS it? Because then Ukraine as a non NATO country becomes a buffer between Russia and NATO.

There is an argument that Putin waited until after Trump because he knew that Trump was just crazy enough to send troops in. Biden is unlikely to do anything more than wet the bed.

[das Uber Soldat]

No dealings with China, right then, forget shopping for a while, are you wearing anything NOT made in China. When Covid hit we needed masks and PPE for goodness sake. We RELY on what they supply. Not to mention what we SELL them in raw materials.
You know what else China supplied? Covid.

His timing and strategy is not indicative of an unstable man.
This cannot be a serious statement.

The world is not a friendly warm and fuzzy place, he is doing what is best for Russia
Precisely how is invading a free, independent and sovereign nation that poses absolutely no threat to Russia, "doing whats best for Russia". Look at the consequences. The ruble is in freefall, inflation is currently around 70%, the people have been limited to ATM withdrawals of $20 to avoid a run on the banks further destroying the economy. They are cut off from their international foreign currency reserves, their banks and major institutions are cutoff from SWIIFT and unable to do business, the airspace of the entire western world is now closed to Russian aircraft. And the suffering has only just started. I won't even bother mentioning the thousands of dead Russian soldiers, the majority of whom seem to be bordering on children.

Russia is rapidly becoming a pariah state, like NK and Iran.

Yeh, Putin is doing whats 'best' for Russia alright.


taking back what is theirs and building a buffer from NATO forces.
Whats 'theirs'? What the hell exactly is 'theirs'. What is literally the first point of the Budapest Memorandum, signed by Russia in 94?

>Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.

Explain to me how a single inch of Ukraine is 'theirs'. That the Russians want a buffer to NATO does not legitimize their efforts to create one.

The US invaded Libya why? Certainly not to help Libya. What about Iraq and those pesky non existent WMD?
Oh of course, the tried and true US whataboutism that is trotted out by every Putin lapdog whenever the inexcusable actions of their Government are brought into focus.

Putin is a psychopathic kleptocratic lunatic, bent on restoring the soviet empire. There would be few people on earth who care less about the welfare of the Russian people than him, given his course of stealing everything they own over the last 20 years, and now taking action that has effectively condemned them to economic hardship for a generation or more.

Absolutely nothing about his current course of action is justified, warranted or even sane. The only safe way out of this mess is for his circle of power to realize the path we are on and to drag him out of his Ural mountains bunker and hang the bastard.

Slava Ukraini

[Icarus2001]

Well thankfully we live in a country that allows us to have different views. No one gets shot for that here.

[das Uber Soldat]

Well thankfully we live in a country that allows us to have different views.
And yet you shill for a country that doesn't. Disgraceful.

[KRviator]

Well thankfully we live in a country that allows us to have different views. No one gets shot for that here.Not shot, no, but certainly arrested for it. Who can forget that pregnant bird in Victoria who got pulled out of her own home for "incitement" - for encouraging others to protest against Danistan's pandemic directions...And let's not forget it was an unelected bureaucrat who made those orders curtailing peoples freedoms, it wasn't the Government of the day...

When you can be arrested for merely planning or simply encouraging a peaceful protest against a Government decision or action, yet alone actually participating in one, are we all that different to Russia, really?

[Icarus2001]

Where did I say I thought Vlad was doing the right thing? Critical thinking is really a lost art. Take a look at what he is doing from the Russian history perspective rather than just consuming the woke media portrayal of him as some crazed lunatic. I think the invasion is appalling but I see what he doing rather than seeing a crazed megalomaniac.

[tossbag]

If you can't see a crazed megalomaniac then your 'critical thinking' is a little skew-iff.

[das Uber Soldat]

Where did I say I thought Vlad was doing the right thing?

When you write that Russia is "taking what is theirs" and putin is "doing what is best for Russia". You are a shill for Putin, and a complete disgrace. None of what you wrote is phrased in a way that says you're simply presenting the Russian side of the argument, if such a thing even exists. You assert it as objective fact. When your weak as piss 'argument' is challenged, you capitulate with nothing more than 'agree to disagree'.

Critical thinking is really a lost art.
A critical thought hasn't crossed the diminished synapses of your brain in a very long time I'd wager.

Take a look at what he is doing from the Russian history perspective rather than just consuming the woke media portrayal of him as some crazed lunatic.
The unbelievable arrogance to assert that my position, my understanding of current events could only be arrived at through superficial consumption of 'woke media'. And I thought you couldn't disgrace yourself further. My understanding of these events goes well beyond what I saw on "TMZ", you blithering pompous idiot. The Russian perspective may present insight into why these actions have taken place, but critically, any rational educated person would understand that this doesn't excuse their illegal and murderous conduct. Is the only reason you disagree with the Nazis that you don't understand their perspective? :rolleyes:

And of course again, you defend the character of Putin, denying that he is a lunatic, despite him threatening to literally end all life on earth, to destroy the entire f'in planet should they come to the aid of a sovereign, free and democratic nation that he is currently invading.

I think the invasion is appalling (I don't believe that for a second) but I see what he doing rather than seeing a crazed megalomaniac.
You know what they say about the worth of any statement that is followed by "but" ?

You're a pathetic Putin shill, a disgrace to this board. There is no excuse, no justification, nothing at all that justifies what is happening to the people of Ukraine right now. Any attempt to do so merely marks one as an enemy of the liberal and free population of the world.

[Icarus2001]

Gosh, you really are hanging on quite tightly. Relax. Nothing we do here in Australia will affect the outcome.

So saying that “ Russia is taking what is theirs” refers to Vlad’s point of view. I do not think it is theirs to take and as I said, repeating for clarity, I think the invasion is appalling. He clearly believes that NOW is the time to invade, he has had thirty thousand troops there on the border for nearly a year. If he was crazy it is a very long drawn out craziness, which implies strategy. Why not just invade when “his mate” Trump was in office? Thereby assuring himself an easy reaction from the US? Have a think about that.
As to him doing “ what is best for Russia” I believe that HE believes that is what he is doing. The current RUB crash and the financial punishments will not last very long. Especially since Europe needs his gas. Can you imagine for one minute what would happen in Europe if he turned of gas supply? A very cold spring ahead I think. Any world leader wants to increase their empire, except Trudeau perhaps who knows what he wants. So accessing the trade route through Ukraine, their mineral reserves and access to ports is all a strategic win for Russia, which will last much longer than the sanctions.
As far as the western alliance response? Sleepy Joe will not even declare a no fly zone as he would not want to enforce it. Ukraine has specifically asked for a NFZ. What about the EU and their NATO allies? Very quiet n’est pas.
I may disagree with you but I will defend your right to say it. Personal attacks on me do you no credit, try playing the ball not the man.

Finally; the world is a tragedy to those who feel and a comedy to those who think - Horace Walpole 1769

[das Uber Soldat]

> Personal attacks on me do you no credit, try playing the ball not the man.

There is no ball to play, you have no argument. You're a pathetic shill. Watching you back peddle out of your absurd posturing has been most entertaining. "I wAs jUsT prESenTinG thE RusSian PerspEctIve".

Explain to me again how a person who has repeatedly threatened to destroy the entire world and murder every single person in it, is not a lunatic. I'll wait.

As for the rest of your drivel predicting the future financial position of Russia, nothing more than the musings of an idiot. The Ruble crash will not last very long?
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1522x1403/image_9867332281feb4db494ff74272f2827003ed5220.png


Yeh, look at that Ruble go, recovery will be any minute now... aaaanny minute now.

Russia is being sent back to the stone age. If you think this is a temporary or transient occurrence, that Russia will have markets to operate in anytime soon, you're even dumber than I thought.

I want to hear out of your mouth that you agree there is absolutely no justification, no excuse at all for Russia's conduct here. Their perspective, their viewpoint is utterly irrelevant. Say that and I'll believe your protestations that you find the invasion appalling. Otherwise, its just more maneuvering.