Cheap Aircraft for Resistance Fighters

[nomorecatering]

I could be asking a dumb question.

Could a air superiority fighter of any nation, or air defence system take out an expertly flown extra 300. That is, if an Extra 300 got bounced by an F16 or similiar, could the high g turning ability of the Extra keep it in the fight long enough to hold off an attack by a jet fighter.

There is a video of a Pucara (correction OV10 Bronco) beign taken on by an F16 and it manage to hold out for quite some time before being shot down due to it's low speed and tight turn radius. There is also a story of several raids on airfields by biplanes I think in the Vietnam war that proved near imposible to engage due to the sub 100kt speed and turning ability, especialy at tree top height. Are small composite aircraft harder to see with radar?

Thus, I was wondering of the viability of designing a version of an Extra type aircraft with 2 x fuselage mounted light machine guns. Something like .303 with 400 rpg. yes it would reguire some type of interupter mechanism. A 2 seat Extra 300NG with the 2 guns under the belly and ammunition storeage in the front cockpit seems to be the go.They wouldn't win a war but could prove an extreme irratitant and destraction to a conventional military force. Especially if there were hundreds of them.

The next size up I was immagining would be a modern day carbon fibre Mosquito with 2000 hp Pt6's and 4 x .50 Cal machine guns.

Thoughts anyone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6Xw8e7lFi8

[ORAC]

You either have a helmet mounted sight for firing a missile over your shoulder or you extend out of the fight, gain energy then turn back in and blow them away with a missile while they fly pretty circles in the air.

Modern short range missiles can pull far more G than any aircraft and don’t need a tail aspect for a lock.

[nomorecatering]

But would a radar guided missle detect a flea sized Extra, especially if it was flying between trees, can a heat seeking missle detct the heat signature from the exhaust of a piston engine? if a high speed fighter can do a turn to put it out of the turning capability of missle, I would have thought an unlimited category aerobatic aircraft with it's ability do literaly square turns would be even harder. I admit my knowledge of missle is of the Vietnam era however. I stand to be corrected.

Most of my knowledge comes from articles such as this.

http://www.ausairpower.net/TE-Evading-Missiles.html

This clip explains what I mean about maneouverability of these aircraft.at low level. I cant imagine any missle flying at 2000 mph matching the directional/angle changes of these aircraft.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvvvv51duVE

[NutLoose]

They tried the Lightning against a Spitfire but a Lightning isn’t a F16 in any sense.

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/lightning-vs-spitfire-why-the-iconic-mach-2-interceptor-struggled-to-win-mock-dogfights-against-the-legendary-wwii-plane-during-the-trial-flights-conducted-by-the-raf-between-the-two-types/

[B2N2]

OP,

What is the mission of the aircraft?
Light ground support?
Air superiority?
Something like a Cessna Caravan could be used for extraction of wounded or ground support.
Small turbine aircraft are being sold to 3rd world dictatorships for ground support and suppression roles.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/275x183/image_5bb2dc59c5678b0c6ae08cf179b3e3ea5c355563.jpeg

To “fight” a fighter with a light civilian aircraft and you’d need to catch them on the ramp or taxing with a weapon load.
That’s essentially a suicide mission.
A light machine gun on a light aircraft is not going to have the range to do anything or the ballistics. A shoulder fired missile strapped to the fuselage of a light twin will work…once.
My suggestion would be to use a Piper Seminole as they’re no good for anything else anyway :E

Honestly you’ll be better off using drones, weaponizing commercially available or home building simple one way attack drones like the Houthi rebels in Yemen are currently doing.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x400/1645713053_6f5b0b32f5c1dde4323dd0a06e23b45fd7467d9a.jpeg

[Asturias56]

Aircraft are the very last thing that insurgents need - aircraft need bases, lots of expensive repair (even the cheapest aircraft) and skilled support. They're relatively easy to track and when you hit them a small amount of damage puts them or their bases out of action

AFAIK no real insurgent air force has existed other than as a small irritant. Even naval actions is tough although the Tamil Tigers caused the Sri Lankan Govt a lot of pain that way

[RatherBeFlying]

We are about to see the effectiveness of shoulder launched missiles against tanks and aircraft in the Ukraine. Hoping they're really good and the Ukes have lots in the right hands:E

[Bob Viking]

What exactly would be the point of these aircraft? Just to get airborne and not get killed?
Whilst they would be tricky to shoot with an A-A gun if they were doing their best Aeros display that is not really how BFM works. Especially not with missiles and a little thing called tactics.

Also, the kind of gun that an Extra could carry would be pretty puny and not really worth the hassle. You’d be surprised at how A-G gunnery can be very up close and personal and the kind of calibre you’re talking about with it’s associated range would leave the aircraft open to all manner of ground fire.

So basically if you just wanted to take off and buzz around seeing how long you could live I think you’d be better off finding a better hobby.

Finally, as has already been mentioned, if all you want to do is saturate the sky, use drones.

BV

[chevvron]

Google 'Malmo MFI-9' where armed light aircraft similar to Bolkows were used in the Biafran war in 1968..

[Beamr]

Google 'Malmo MFI-9' where armed light aircraft similar to Bolkows were used in the Biafran war in 1968..
yet again, they took the mig-17's and iljushins on the ground.

[Bob Viking]

I’m not sure the example of Malmo MFI-9s from 1968 really answers the original question.

An Extra 300 could only really wield such a small calibre weapon that you may as well just give the weapon to the infantry.

BV

[Asturias56]

"Google 'Malmo MFI-9' where armed light aircraft similar to Bolkows were used in the Biafran war in 1968.."

Good fro PR but made not the slightest difference to the war or it's outcome

[Saintsman]

But would a radar guided missle detect a flea sized Extra, especially if it was flying between trees, can a heat seeking missle detct the heat signature from the exhaust of a piston engine? if a high speed fighter can do a turn to put it out of the turning capability of missle, I would have thought an unlimited category aerobatic aircraft with it's ability do literaly square turns would be even harder. I admit my knowledge of missle is of the Vietnam era however. I stand to be corrected.

Most of my knowledge comes from articles such as this.

Evading the Guided Missile (http://www.ausairpower.net/TE-Evading-Missiles.html)

This clip explains what I mean about maneouverability of these aircraft.at low level. I cant imagine any missle flying at 2000 mph matching the directional/angle changes of these aircraft.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvvvv51duVE

But to be of any use, they would need pylons on the wings to attach weapons to.

No high G turns if you want to keep the wings on…

[Lima Juliet]

NMC

You obviously have little knowledge of modern short range air to air missiles. Have a watch of this video to update your thinking that seems to be based around 1970s/1980s Sidewinder tech:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKN_2ViE4eM

Also, putting anything like a Stinger onto an Extra 300 would make it handle like a dog (very draggy) and as others have said the puny machine gun you could fit (with significant airframe strengthening required) would further reduce the performance.

Anyone who has done modern fighter affiliation against a tactical mobility aircraft or helicopter knows the real truth. Oddly enough it’s normally only the crews of these aircraft that puff their chests out to say that they are hard to shoot down - some call that living in denial, right up to the point where it happens for real and there is a smoking heap on the ground.

[nomorecatering]

Maybe this might be the go then.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTgNB2zrkfQ

I'm not talking about a war winner, or an A-10 tank buster, or even battle space domination. You are correct, if it was about 1v1 FCM against a gen 4 fighter, the result is set in stone. What I'm talking about is harrasment. The element of surprise. Get bounced, it's game over. Possible suicide missions....absolutely.

I've worked on farms where ag aircraft are operating. They are down in the weeds, less than 30 feet agl. behind the trees. Sometimes you can hear them, but you can't see them until they are on top of you. I have backseated on an AT-802. The pilot demonstrated to me what ultra low flying is like. Under power lines, under overhanging tree branches, between trees. You don't understand what it's like until you do it for real.

During WW2, the French Resistance used assassins on bicycles. Pedalling down a street they would spot their mark, whip out a pistol and a single shot hopefully to the head then escape by using crowds and back alleys for cover. By the accounts I have read, it didn't have any material effect, but it did rattle the Germans quite significantly.
War is not won by a single heroic act (except in US war movies - they always have to have the singular hero).

War is won by multiple players nawing away, little bite by little bite.

[nomorecatering]

Super Tucano looks rather sporting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkgeladdlaI&t=194s

[Beamr]

Ok, what is rhe definition of cheap? The cost of the weapons systems on the above AT-802 are probably way above the airframe price. The Super Tucano having a price tag too.

[Asturias56]

As the Tamils discovered you can get an awful lot of suicide bombers for the price of a modern piece of hi-tech kit

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

before being shot down
You answered your own question.

[Lima Juliet]

Air Defence 1.01 continues…

Flying at 30ft isn’t going to save you, neither is hiding behind a tree line (unless you land as you have to come out eventually!). A modern look down-shoot down multimode pulse Doppler radar will detect and then support a missile to target even at 30ft. The modern air to air missile is going to come down from above, so your so-called ‘hiding’ at 30ft just won’t work.

There is an old story called Occam’s Razor, which applies to your hair brained idea. There are lots of folks that are subject matter experts on air defence that look for an advantage in the next air to air war, if your idea was goer then we would have seen it already. There are so many flaws in your plan of using an Extra 300 or crop spraying aircraft that I simply run out of the energy to point them all out (much of which has been said already). If it were so obvious then every Air Force would be fielding cheap aircraft to outfox their adversaries - oddly enough they aren’t!

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

During WW2, the French Resistance used assassins on bicycles. Pedalling down a street they would spot their mark, whip out a pistol and a single shot hopefully to the head then escape by using crowds and back alleys for cover. By the accounts I have read, it didn't have any material effect, but it did rattle the Germans quite significantly.
War is not won by a single heroic act (except in US war movies - they always have to have the singular hero).

War is won by multiple players nawing away, little bite by little bite.

I think you’d be better off with the bicycle and pistol than your Extra 300. It will be cheaper, equally as effective in defeating the Russians, and less vulnerable to modern A-A missiles.

[mickjoebill]

"modern look down-shoot down multimode pulse Doppler radar will detect and then support a missile to target even at 30ft"

​​​​​​Before this thread comes to a dead stick ending... would an electric powered aircraft be harder to track? presumably with a lower heat signature? Do air to air missiles have radar as well as thermal sensors?

Would agree that drones are the go, perhaps we may see the resourceful Ukrainians have a go...

Whilst we are on air to air combat 101, is it feasible to adapt a consumer drone, load with a lightweight explosive payload (say 0.3 kilo ) to fly itself into the source of enemy radar and at least disrupt it?

​​​​​​
Mjb

[rudestuff]

I've often thought that an R66 painted green would make a useful cheap short range military aircraft - bear with me on this!
They're cheap under $1M
You could put bench seats on the outside for 4 pax or stretchers.
When compared to a $20M 20 seat transport helicopter they're 4x cheaper per seat mile. Yes, to carry those 20 pax you'd need 5x the pilots, but initial/recurrent training can be done on an R22. Having 20 guys in 5 aircraft rather than one spreads the risk and requires 5x the ordinance to destroy.

[Beamr]

I've often thought that an R66 painted green would make a useful cheap short range military aircraft -
didn't the Estonian air force do that already?

[MJ89]

Surprised there is anything but drones left, but there seems to be few jet Fighters left, and gunships, which are common types, HInds, Mig 29s. Got to be a few 29s that are on the market surely or perhaps from Ukrainian ally's even? perhaps the polish could donate to a good cause and re type on Falcons. There's got to be a few 100 Ukrainian pilots still familiar on the type. which is what mainly matters.

Takes a brave pilot tho to fly against such odds but they have shown how brave they are by doing just that.
And with lines of tanks and fuel & ammunition trucks 3 miles long!, no warning from a 30mm Cannon, if your the target anyhow. same Cal as ADEN and A-10s Avenger. so sure some of you have experience with this type o thing.

[Sue Vêtements]

This is an interesting concept and one that I've often wondered about - if you have two weapons systems from two different historical timeframes, could they actually engage each other? I'm thinking not of a 300, but say a Sopwith Camel or even an archer with longbow. I'm not saying they could do any damage, but could they even be detected and given the relative speeds, could they be engaged?


But to get back to the original question, I wonder why drones aren't one of the main battlefield weapons at this point - not a huge UAV, but a $1000 DJI Phantom or something similar. Sure the payload wouldn't be great, but does it need to be if it can find a three mile long convoy, hover in front of the windshield of the first vehicle and explode?

I'm also surprised they haven't been used more extensively for assassination attempts. We already have plexiglass walls surrounding people giving speeches, but there's no plexiglass roof, AND the coordinates should be already known, so no need to have a jammable control signal. That just seems like a logical next step, becaause it seems like everything humans invent sooner or later gets turned into a weapons system, aircraft being the perfect example

[Sue Vêtements]

Damn, I forgot the other thing I meant to say - what about hand held lasers?

Might not be much use against fast jets, but helicopters might be vulnerable to them (or for that matter ground vehicles). It seems like it's a problem for civil aviation, so why not use them as a cheap and easy to use resistance weapon?

Sure you'd give away your position, but that might not matter at that point anyway

[Beamr]

With a laser pointer you'll become a target. Shortens life expectancy significantly.

[Ozgrade3]

If your going to do a laser - might as well do it properly.....and DIY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAI7Lu4UFi4



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzUoe-9bKa0&t=4s

[B2N2]

The ol’ interwebz has plenty of sites where you can buy Chinese handheld lasers that are verboten in pretty much any Western country for being too strong.
To reiterate an earlier point, allegedly our Ukrainian friends have scored some successes with Turkish made TB-2 drones.

Ukraine has been acquiring Turkish-made drones since 2019 to use its high-performance cameras to monitor the battlefield and laser-correct artillery strikes. The TB2 can stay in the air for 24 hours and has an altitude limit of roughly 7,620 meters. The drone can be controlled from up to nearly 300 km, weather permitting.

https://twitter.com/UKRinTR/status/1497857490976972804?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembe d%7Ctwterm%5E1497857490976972804%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-9440093691152158368.ampproject.net%2F2202142035002%2Fframe.h tml

[Sue Vêtements]

If your going to do a laser - might as well do it properly.....and DIY

Yes that's sort of what I meant, though I have to say, he's not very considerate of anything downrange ... like his neighbour's house !!!

As for pointing it into the air . . .

[rigpiggy]

How much are the turkish kargu drones. How long to ship 500 to start with another 1000 on order. Setup with one of three charges antiarmor/antipersonnel/thermobaric. 20 drones firing the equivalent of a 1/2 claymore or shaped charge would devastate a motorized column or infantry batallion. In addition it could be sent after radar and surveillance systems blinding the enemy. Forbes has a write up on it 20/6/17


kind of the ultimate in assymetric warfare.

[Lima Juliet]

The whole swarming drone thing for low end drones makes me chuckle. Easy prey for C-RAM, Goalkeepers or the new capabilities like Rheinmetal:
https://youtu.be/pb5_F4_Eod8

[Sue Vêtements]

well I bet even I could hit eight drones if they were hovering in a tight box like that

...but if I was the attacker, I'd send my eight drones on different routes, as fast as possible and probably not in a straight line either

[ehwatezedoing]

On a side note, one or two decades ago the French Air Force hired as contractor a local company flying Pawnees for a one time "test" The goal was to fly undetected (No Awacs involved) To a particular base... Which they managed to do! :p All by flying below tree tops and following/Slaloming a big power line!


I'm sure this flaw has been corrected since.

[Sue Vêtements]

The there was Mathias Rust . . .

[MJ89]

Any ideas how long and how much modding it would take to remove nato standard Equipment before transfer. or is it just radios really.

[MJ89]

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-poland-offers-all-of-its-mig-29-fighter-jets-to-us-in-plan-to-provide-aircraft-to-ukrainians-12561039?fbclid=IwAR1R4il_nobeySSCE85u4q_0s5NkkI7zHT18OV1zK1 SHDcDl38fF4KWGbus

[Lima Juliet]

@sue vetements - Have you ever seen a C-RAM operate effectively against multiple rockets and mortars? They aren’t exactly a small swarm in formation! The drones in formation in the video was a test of the ammunition’s effectiveness to take down several drones with a single round. The Rheinmetall is designed to do that and deal with many more drones than shown in that demonstration video.

You can see the type of airbrust ammunition they are developing for this specific purpose here:

https://youtu.be/Drm3kdDYBI4

Sadly, swarming drones are some of the Koolaid/Snake Oil that the idiot called Williamson swallowed when he was a dismal Secretary of State for Defence. The swarming drones are going to need to be highly capable (read expensive) and so all the toy quadcopter developments and trials that we see from uniformed personnel that fly their pride and joy with military insignia/roundel on it, that spout that there will be no aircrew required in the future, are sadly deluded - like Captain Smith in his unsinkable ship called Titanic.

[639]

But to be of any use, they would need pylons on the wings to attach weapons to.

No high G turns if you want to keep the wings on…

Actually the opposite, wing mounted mass will lower the overall structural loading on a wing in a high G turn

[nomorecatering]

Ok, time for the dumb question.

These turkish drones are apparently giving the Russians quite some curry. The drone being used (TB2) has a wingspan of 39 feet, cruises at 70 kts. So why arent they being blown out of the sky before they get to the target with the Russian Stinger equivalent. The Russian Air Force is MIA so they don't have top cover and the mythical "lookdown, shootdown" capability. They certainly seem not to have any AWACS support.

Maybe 50 x AT-802U's roaming around the countryside at low level is not such a daft idea after all.

Some enterprrising chaps and chapetts have rigged up drones to carry molotove cocktails. But what about an even simpler idea. A simple hook & release system to pick up a morter bomb. Fly off the top of a small building, hover over a tank and bombs away then a pre programmed random track back to landing sight for the next morter bomb load, rinse and repeat. Now I have no idea if the vertical accuracy of a dropped morter from say 500 feet - does it swirl around etc. A friend of mine was able to drop a steel dart on a wrecked car from 300 feet. It was hard to see the drone at 300ft even when you know it was there with the naked eye. Couldn't hear it either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcQdbEpfjTY

[nomorecatering]

Well, well, well..............it seems some of my "hairbrained ideas" as some here have put it................may not be so wacky afterall.

Inventive Ukranians are attaching small grenades to drones with a cobbled up release mechanism, and dropping them on soft targets like trucks and other non-hardened material. Apparently they are driving the Russians bat**** crazy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D0Zu4dDXjo

[The B Word]

It’s been done before this conflict by Daesh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz2jrmnm7ds

Limited effect really, you have none of the speed, reach and persistence that Air Power doctrine requires. It might get lucky, but it’s not exactly a war winner…

[nomorecatering]

Told ya - I was right all along.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxesPrz267Q

[Bob Viking]

It would appear you are attempting to gaslight us!

You started the thread by asking about Extra 300s in dogfights and were told by many of us that drones were a better option. Now you’re trying to tell us the drones were your idea all along.

You can’t have it both ways.

BV

[skua]

There is a fascinating article in the current edition of Aviation Historian about Rhodesia's use of civil aircraft for counter-insurgency back in the day. Their reservist police force used civil pilots and aircraft such as a Cessna 206, and a v-tailed Bonanza armed with machine guns in underwing pods (Bonanza), and out of the rear doorway (Cessna). The Bonanza additionally had a home-made grenade launcher through a hole in the floor. Amazing ingenuity (and balls). Clearly the threat environment is a little different in the present case!

[KiloB]

There is a fascinating article in the current edition of Aviation Historian about Rhodesia's use of civil aircraft for counter-insurgency back in the day. Their reservist police force used civil pilots and aircraft such as a Cessna 206, and a v-tailed Bonanza armed with machine guns in underwing pods (Bonanza), and out of the rear doorway (Cessna). The Bonanza additionally had a home-made grenade launcher through a hole in the floor. Amazing ingenuity (and balls). Clearly the threat environment is a little different in the present case!

True! The unit involved was called PRAW (Police Reserve Air Wing). I played a small part in it as I was ‘loaned’ to do tests on a Browning/172 combination for them as they didn’t have people trained on Browning.

[Just a spotter]

The Irish Air Corps did equip some of their Cessna/Reims 172 H's with under wing rocket pods.

Might not be the best platform, especially over contested locations.

JAS

[ORAC]

Read Air America (don’t watch the movie).

[fdr]

Actually the opposite, wing mounted mass will lower the overall structural loading on a wing in a high G turn


er....


ummm....


ah...

absolutely or relatively?

if the option is between having a load on the fuselage or on the wings, quite correct.
If the mass is just added as "wing-mounted mass will lower the overall structural loading on a wing in a high G turn", then.... er... nope. The only thing that affects the wing bending moment is the load at the wing root, the mass of the fuselage. Adding a decorative load to the wings without removing same from the fuselage isn't going to change the outcome, other than increasing the CL required to achieve a certain g loading if the whole weight is greater as a result of the decorative bangles applied to the wings.

[fdr]

Well, well, well..............it seems some of my "hairbrained ideas" as some here have put it................may not be so wacky afterall.

Inventive Ukranians are attaching small grenades to drones with a cobbled up release mechanism, and dropping them on soft targets like trucks and other non-hardened material. Apparently they are driving the Russians bat**** crazy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D0Zu4dDXjo

The Ukrainians have used their homegrown "dial a dump" quadcopter on T-72 tanks resulting in it brewing up, so it is not a trivial capability, or at least the Russian tank crew would think not.

Fighting the Russians symmetrically is a poor option, it is trading blows and the differences in losses are dependent on surprise, fortification, logistics, morale and luck. Surprise is not present in most of this fight, fortification is not a way to winning, it is a way to not loosing, logistics are definitely a prime interdiction target and then defensive measures come into play, morale, Ukraine: politicians in the front line, lines of volunteers, a population that will never forgive Russia for the was of extermination that they have brought to their home, vs, Russia: the Oligarch's billionaires club. conscripts, desertions, refusal to fight, surrendering to Ukraine, handing over weapon systems to Ukraine citizens.... and luck. You tend to make your own luck, and attacking Ukraine in spring was just outright dumb. Assuming that the other team is less competent than you are, is less committed, less smart or brilliant tends to reflect in what appears as luck, (hubris).

Crowdfunding drones for Ukraine would seem to be a great idea, every quadcopter in the air adds to the static and increases the amount of intel that the warfighters have. There is a morale aspect as well, it doesn't take long to learn that the sound of a $50 drone is followed by explosions targeted nearby, and in the end, arty has caused more losses to armies than any other single cause, the AK-47 doesn't even come close in it's headcount.

Start a crowdfund, I'll donate.

An alternative suggestion, the farmers are probably short of tow ropes, which is worthy of crowdfunding...

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/864x575/russian_tank_tow_cc4ba32403b4c586aeaf72ad546669a4d36cfa10.pn g

[BEagle]

The only thing that affects the wing bending moment is the load at the wing root, the mass of the fuselage.

Nope. That's why large aircraft with multiple fuel tanks use centre tank fuel first, aiming to keep the distributed fuel mass in outboard tanks for as long as possible.

[nomorecatering]

Not only are the Ukrainians using drones to drop bombs, they are using commercial of the shelf units.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bsgCRVcCN0&t=23s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT5FKNQ2Fg8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jrXMlp4ReE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA8ZHmAcLuU

[fdr]

The Irish Air Corps did equip some of their Cessna/Reims 172 H's with under wing rocket pods.

Might not be the best platform, especially over contested locations.

JAS

Were the rockets facing forwards or backwards?

[Asturias56]

well of course the World's most effective low level penetration ever was carried out by a Cessna/Rheims 172 piloted by Mathias Rust :ok:

Thirty five years ago this month