Britannia Airways and the Boeing 707

[Mooncrest]

Does anybody know what prompted Britannia to take on a couple of these aeroplanes ? I believe it was 1971 and they were dry-leased from either World Airways or British Caledonian. Whatever the reason, they didn't stop that long and both were in the hands of BCAL by 1973. Was the plan to boost capacity on the busier Mediterranean routes or to get a piece of the ABC transatlantic market alongside BMA, Donaldson et al ? Britannia could have bought a brand new pair of 707s built to their -04 specification but they opted for the used/lease direction, perhaps suggesting an evaluation of the aircraft before committing to new, which never happened.

Thankyou.

[22/04]

They were obtained to get Britannia in the affinity group charters which later became advance booking charters. These allowed members of a club to travel together on charter flights, but the rules surrounding them were widely flaunted. In 1973 the rules required operators of these flights to set up a U.S office and Britannia decided it was not worth their while and disposed of the aircraft. They did do other things - freight charters, racehorses as well as IT flights to the Canaries etc. I remember one going to Kuala Lumper once.

[l.garey]

It enabled me to get from Luton via Keflavik to Oakland on a student charter in 1972 on G-AYSI.

Laurence

[WHBM]

I think it was just a shortage of jets. They were used on conventional IT routes through the summer, one certainly full time at Manchester. The early 737-200 didn't have a huge range, Manchester to The Canaries was sometimes marginal for one, plus they had considerable extra capacity on major hauls like Palma. They did find other long haul work in the off season, more than the 737s were able to.

[Mooncrest]

Thankyou all. I wonder, had the 707 concept had worked for Britannia, if the company would have purchased some new aircraft, as I alluded to upthread ? They were already in the business of buying factory fresh 737s so extending the idea to 707s would have seemed logical. On the other hand, the early 70s was a time when the 320B and 320C 707s were appearing on the used market as their owners upgraded to widebody jets, perhaps making these airframes a more attractive option.

[WHBM]

Monarch of course went for the same, introducing a fleet of onetime Northwest 720Bs from the end of 1971. The 720B is essentially the same as a 707, with a series of structural lightenings etc to suit more medium-haul operations. They ran, mainly from across the ramp from Britannia at Luton, to the same range of Mediterranean etc holiday destinations and the scatter of off-season points further afield.

I wonder, had the 707 concept had worked for Britannia, if the company would have purchased some new aircraft707 production was on its last legs by the time this trial ended, the world had moved on; Laker was getting the DC-10 and Court the Tristar by then. Both were really too big for the holiday flight market which, especially for Britannia witrh their approach of services from every significant UK airport, needed something smaller and more flexible, but with the range to reach the "4 hour" destinations like The Canaries or Cyprus. When the 757 came along 10 years later, that was spot on.

[Mooncrest]

The main difference between Monarch and Britannia in this regard is that this was Monarch's first foray into jet operations whereas Britannia had already racked up three years 'experience with new aircraft. With the benefit of hindsight (i.e. knowing the ABC's days were numbered), Britannia may have been better off with new Advanced 727-200s, in order to reach the distant spots that the 737s couldn't quite manage. Of course, we shall never know.

[BSD]

In the mid-70s Britannia, I believe came reasonably close to buying/leasing 2 DC-8 60 series. They even went so far as to nominate key personnel (fleet captain etc.)
Binning the idea eventually lead to the project that saw the 767 being ordered.

[Mooncrest]

In the mid-70s Britannia, I believe came reasonably close to buying/leasing 2 DC-8 60 series. They even went so far as to nominate key personnel (fleet captain etc.)
Binning the idea eventually lead to the project that saw the 767 being ordered.
I never knew that. The only non-Boeing jet I remember Britannia getting involved with was the Transaer A320 for a couple of summer seasons in the late 1990s.

[kenparry]

BAL had a wet-leased DC-8 for at least a couple of Summers in the 80s. My recollection is that it was Spanish registered and worked mainly to the Canaries. It also ran, mostly, many hours late, and provided very poor customer service. for example, the time they offloaded the pax, then did some hours of base training for new crews - with the baggage still on board. Oh dear.

[Mooncrest]

A shabby DC8 can't have done Britannia's reputation much good. Perhaps they should have kept the 707s after all.

[LGS6753]

I seem to remember seeing the BY 707s used on charters to Georgetown, Guyana, to New York and to Australia, the latter for Austravel. Some of these operated from Luton, other ops were from Gatwick and Manchester.

[kenparry]

AFAIK the Oz/NZ routes only started around 1990, using the B767; yes, for Austravel. If the 707s did go that way, I suspect it was only infrequently and for a different charterer.

[WHBM]

I took this picture in mid 70s, in uuee for RW 07
That photo at Moscow Sheremetyevo is presumably one of the two BA 707-336Bs, actually bought new after the 747 came on line, for the London-Moscow-Tokyo direct route "Russiaway to Japan".

[rog747]

Mooncrest asks that the idea of BY was buying factory fresh 737s so extending the idea to order new 707-304Cs would have seemed logical - but the 707C order heyday in 1971, as WHBM says was almost over - BOAC had just taken its last new 707C, G-AYLT to replace the SVC-10 lost at Dawson's.
Although BCAL formed in 1971 had agreed that their front line long haul aircraft was to be the 707C over the VC-10.

The early 70s was a time when the 720B, 320, 420, and even the better 320B and 320C 707s were appearing on the used market, offloaded as their owners upgraded to wide body jets.

Laker already had, in 1969, a pair of 707-138B's flying for Lord Bros and Group charters.
Caledonian AW had by 1969, a fleet of 7 new or almost new 707C's - Global, Tartan Arrow, Whitehall, Pontinental, and Horizon Holidays were big charterers of Caledonian 707's.
In 1970/71 Dan Air, Lloyd International, and BMA all obtained a pair of old ex Pan Am -321's for IT's and Affinity Group (to become ABC) charters. (Donaldson would also obtain 4 -321's).
All of the above were to be seen in Tenerife, Alicante, Ibiza, or Palma and they of course, also flew to the Far East/USA/Canada as was the norm.

BEA Airtours from 1971 for Enterprise, Flair, Thomas Cook and Martin Rooks Holidays, took on eventually 9 or so ex BOAC 707-420's, but KT had wanted ex AA 707-123B's but HM Govt and/or the BofT said no.
By 1971 Monarch had bought their first 3 720B's for Cosmos, which they used afar as St Lucia (for Pegasus Holidays) via the Azores iirc. They would also add 707-123B's to enable longer range.
Channel AW was looking at Continental 707's.

As mentioned, the 2 BRITANNIA 707's were used on IT's to the Med and the Canaries but they also flew for Thomson Holidays to MBJ Montego Bay, as well as on the Affinity Group T/A flights. Not sure what the KUL operation was - It may have been the jet-ship charter operation for LON to Australia for The FETC. Sabre Air took that on from LGW to SIN.
Both 707 though would soon end up at BCAL.

I was aware that Court Line looked at the DC-8 63 but I never heard that Britannia had.
Lloyd International had an order for 3 brand new DC-8 63PF's

[BSD]

Rog747,

I joined Britanna in 1979 and recall flying with a captain who had been involved in the stretched DC-8 project. He would have beeb the fleet captain if it had gone ahead.

Just how much momentum or traction the project gathered, what the aeroplanes would have been used for or when they would have been bought/leased I can't tell you.

Mind you, during the 70s (when this would have been happening) Britannia engineering looked after the IAS DC-8s, which came to Luton for their hangar visits.

[WHBM]

Caledonian AW had by 1969, a fleet of 7 new or almost new 707C's - Global, Tartan Arrow, Whitehall, Pontinental, and Horizon Holidays were big charterers of Caledonian 707's.

You are correct about the Caledonian (and others) 707 fleet, and about Caledonian's Mediterranean IT charterers, but the latter were almost wholly on their One-Eleven 500s, which broadly (it varied by year) was one in Glasgow, one in Manchester, and the rest in Gatwick, flights often being shared between multiple holiday companies. The 707s, certainly in summer, were principally used on transatlantic charters, for which Caledonian were notably the market leaders, picking up business from both Britain and North America. There were likely a few 707 rotations to Tenerife etc, which were beyond normal One-Eleven range, but not a lot, and not a dedicated aircraft.

The Glasgow Caledonian One-Eleven sometimes operated out of Prestwick rather than Abbotsinch, for a reason I have never been able to put my finger on.

[Mooncrest]

Interesting how the 707 cornered the UK market for long-haul capable narrowbody passenger jets but, for pure freight, the DC8 was the winner. Horses for courses.

[Liffy 1M]

The Glasgow Caledonian One-Eleven sometimes operated out of Prestwick rather than Abbotsinch, for a reason I have never been able to put my finger on.

Runway length, perhaps? The 1-11-500 at high weights was not a stellar performer...

[DH106]

The Glasgow Caledonian One-Eleven sometimes operated out of Prestwick rather than Abbotsinch, for a reason I have never been able to put my finger on.

Runway length at gross weight perhaps?

[rog747]

Rog747,

I joined Britannia in 1979 and recall flying with a captain who had been involved in the stretched DC-8 project. He would have been the fleet captain if it had gone ahead.
Just how much momentum or traction the project gathered, what the aeroplanes would have been used for or when they would have been bought/leased I can't tell you.

Ah thanks for the info -
1979 was much later in the day of course, and I must say BY and Thomsons were quiet about DC-8's and as to whom it was sourcing a/c from ? -
BY's order and planning from 1979/1980 for new 767-200's to be delivered in early 1984 may have had some effect - as did the 1979 Oil Crisis caused by the depose of the Shah of Iran.

I cannot think of any holiday markets at that time (1979) that Thomsons or BY were looking at to warrant flying DC-8 63's - Maybe Mombasa and again back to the Caribbean >?
It would be more than 10 years on before the 767's would start flying to such far away places, and the 767ER also began regular charter flights to MCO etc, and also, initially from LTN to Australia, as well as to New Zealand the following year.

British Midland striving at this time to obtain scheduled route licences to fly from LHR to the USA were also looking at DC-8 63's, but in 1981 decided to fully refurbish it's 3 707C's with new seats/galleys and a wide-look cabin interior, with a view to use these as a stop gap if the CAA awarded the lucrative NYC routes (That never happened) but the 3 smart a/c ended up on Summer IT's to the Med and the Canarias, plus USA and Canada charter flights, with weekend Ski flights in the winter. They flew from 1982 until sold in 1985.
BMA must have spent a lot of money on these 3 refurb's - one of which was converting an ex Pan Am 707-321C, a pure new build cargo/freighter 707 to a Pax a/c.

WHBM, mentions the Caledonian AW 707C fleet, and about Caledonian's Mediterranean IT charterers, of which yes, were almost wholly flown from 1969 on their 3, then 4 new One-Eleven 500s, from GLA, MAN and LGW. (Caledonian still used their Britannia's until 1970)
Their 707's flew IT's mostly at peak summer weekends usually on W patterns from LGW to PMI, IBZ and ALC. The W's were to MAN or GLA, back to LGW, usually on alternate fortnights.
Delays often built up over the weekend.
Tenerife (TCI) was usually for Horizon weekly on a Sunday from LGW, and to both RHO and NIC (Cyprus) were also flown on the 707 for Horizon and Wings.
When BCAL was formed these Med 707 IT's seemed to stop in the main, except the TCI and NIC.
They flew these shorter 707 IT's from summer 1968 to peaking in 1970/1971 then only a few after 1972, usually PMI, with the TCI staying on until Horizon was bought by Court Line.

Mooncrest,
mentions how the 707 cornered the UK market for long-haul capable narrow body passenger jets - whereas in the USA and Canada the DC-8 and DC-8 Stretch was the most popular type used by the affinity group charter airlines, such as ONA Seaboard Loftleidir Universal Saturn AFA TIA Airlift and Capitol, with CP Air in Canada.
World and Wardair used 707C's, as did International Air Bahama at first, who switched to a DC-8, as did World AW and Airlift re-equipping with DC-8 63PF's.

[SWBKCB]

mentions how the 707 cornered the UK market for long-haul capable narrow body passenger jets -

Was the DC-8 certified in the UK until IAS got their freighters much later? Similarly, the earlier reference to Britannia getting 727's, the 727 wasn't CAA certified until Dan Air did a lot of work to get theirs on the register?

[rog747]

Was the DC-8 certified in the UK until IAS got their freighters much later?
Similarly, the earlier reference to Britannia getting 727's, the 727 wasn't CAA certified until Dan Air did a lot of work to get theirs on the register?

Don't know much about the first DC-8's on the UK Register save for the fact of the order for 3 new DC-8 63CF's for Lloyd International due in 1968.
Lloyd went on to acquire 3 707's from 1970.

G- Axxx
DC‑8‑63CF 46062 05/08/1969 Lloyd Int'l AW -- NTU Acquisition cancelled (to Airlift International N6163A)
G-Axxx
DC‑8‑63CF 46061 03/07/1969 Lloyd Int'l AW -- NTU Acquisition cancelled (to Airlift International N6162A)
G-Axxx
DC‑8‑63CF 45969 20/08/1968 Lloyd Int'l AW -- NTU Acquisition cancelled (to Airlift International N6161A)

Not sure when Britannia AW was looking at the 727 ''officially'' - guess that was around 1966/67 as the first new 737's came in July 1968?
Court Line were reported looking at new 727-200 and the DC-8 63
Dan Air's first 3 727-100 arrived in the UK for summer 1973 with extra mod's required for CAA certification.
BMA looked at 3 727-100 before the DC-9 was acquired in 1976.

[treadigraph]

Rog747, I've said it before, you have an excellent book to write in there somewhere, all ancient history these days but bu@@er me it's utterly fascinating. I really would go back in a heartbeat.

Airlift DC-8s I recall seeing, was there a CIA connection?

[SWBKCB]

Dan Air's first 3 727-100 arrived in the UK for summer 1973 with extra mod's required for CAA certification.

Just looked at G-INFO and it looks like '74. Didn't realise it was that early, later in my head!

[WHBM]

the 707 cornered the UK market for long-haul capable narrow body passenger jets - whereas in the USA and Canada the DC-8 and DC-8 Stretch was the most popular type used by the affinity group charter airlines, such as ONA Seaboard Loftleidir Universal Saturn AFA TIA Airlift and Capitol, with CP Air in Canada.
World and Wardair used 707C's, as did International Air Bahama at first, who switched to a DC-8, as did World AW and Airlift re-equipping with DC-8 63PF's.
Truth is the initial DC-8s, before the -60 series, were rather poor aircraft, and depreciated with their original purchasers quite quickly. Had it not been for Douglas going for the big -60 series revamp it probably would have been finished production by the mid-1960s. Boeing back in the 1950s had bought their own wind tunnel (for tax reasons it was ostensibly owned by the University of Washington in Seattle), whereas Donald Douglas didn't invest in one, and just bought time on the NASA etc tunnels. The DC-8 had a series of both high and low speed aerodynamic inefficiencies which really should have come out at the design stage, the most surprising being discovering it cruised better with a little 1 degree of flap set rather than zero. It wasn't until the DC8-62 wing that they finally got a good design there. Boeing had all their B-47/B-52/KC-135 experience to fall back on.

Of course, there was a lot of prior UK experience, both aircrew and engineering, from BOAC initially selecting the 707, then British Eagle doing so from the Eagle-Cunard-BOAC tieup, Eagle going under and personnel becoming available (particularly at Laker), the DC-8 not being UK certified, etc.

In the USA the buildup to the Vietnam war saw several mainstream US carriers buy significant 707-320C fleets specifically for this - Pan Am, Braniff and Continental particularly. Just as they took delivery the DC8-63F came along, the Defence Department liked this better, and placed a whole range of contracts, not with mainstream carriers but with the supplementals, who until then had staggered along with old cheap Connies and such like. They all placed orders for the new Big Doug as specified, which their salesmen readily signed up; the resulting production meltdown at Long Beach and some inappropriate subcontracting which didn't work was one of the key reasons for the end of Douglas independence. These also took over all the US military traffic to Europe, principally Germany, which the many commercial transatlantic charters were very integrated with in aircraft scheduling, often just being back-hauls to military work.

[Mooncrest]

It goes without saying that whichever airline introduced the 727 to the British register would have paid the certification costs (I think that's the rule). But, bearing in mind that Dan Air's first 727s were the 100 series, it's likely that Britannia would have opted for the then current production model, i .e. the Advanced 200. I don't know if the CAA required any modifications to this variant. In any event, it was again Dan Air that introduced the 200 to the UK in about 1980.

Weren't the 707 and 727, and all their derivatives and variants, fantastic aeroplanes ?

[WHBM]

Dan Air's first 3 727-100 arrived in the UK for summer 1973 with extra mod's required for CAA certification.
Just to be specific, a key mod the UK CAA required, the insertion of an extra door in the fuselage, was not a 727 issue per-se, but was because of the high seat count Dan-Air was going to put into them compared to their previous usage on scheduled services in Japan.

I wonder Channel Airways never got hit with the same when they put the 4+3 across seating into the Trident.

[TCU]

It goes without saying that whichever airline introduced the 727 to the British register would have paid the certification costs (I think that's the rule). But, bearing in mind that Dan Air's first 727s were the 100 series, it's likely that Britannia would have opted for the then current production model, i .e. the Advanced 200. I don't know if the CAA required any modifications to this variant. In any event, it was again Dan Air that introduced the 200 to the UK in about 1980.

Weren't the 707 and 727, and all their derivatives and variants, fantastic aeroplanes ?

The D.P. Davies Royal Aviation Society audio interviews provide a fascinating record of both the 707 and 727 UK certifications

[rog747]

Just looked at G-INFO and it looks like '74. Didn't realise it was that early, later in my head!

Dan Air 727's -
The first trio from JAL were all flown into the UK during Q4 1972 - Not sure where the extra door Mods were done> Boeing?

They all certainly were on the airline's books to fly holiday IT's as 146 seaters from Spring 1973 - seating was pretty tight.
I was invited on a LGW-PMI-LGW Fam Day trip at that time (by Intasun I think)
The 727 was due to do a W from PMI to MAN and back, giving us a full day in Majorca.
We were so horrendously delayed by ATC on the ground at LGW after boarding that we got off and did not bother to go!

The second pair of ex JAL 727's came in 1974 - one was G-BDAN, lost on let down to TCI 4/1980 (Thomas Cook Holidays flight MAN-TCI)
All of these 5 727-046 were the only one's that got the extra rear Type 1 doors fitted to enable over the 150 pax limit.

The 6th a/c came from Burma in 1976 (built for Pacific AL)
The next pair, ex Delta/Northeast AL, came in 1977.
These 3 were not modified and seated 131 pax - these often flew IT's for West German tourists from the Berlin TXL base.

In 1974 TSA Transair Sweden offered their 3 727-134 to DA, but chose to merge and then sell them to SAS/Scanair.
These 3 727's had very high hours, and 1 was a 727-134C with a higher empty weight.

Other 727-100 IT operators in Europe were -->
Condor from 1965. (Lufthansa a/c also)
Icelandair - Flugfelag Islands used theirs on IT's from 1967.
Sabena flying for Sobelair from 1967.
Hapag Lloyd also bought some from Japan (and 1 from Sabena) starting in 1972 and had 8 on fleet by 1976.
plus Pan Am from Berlin TXL at weekends.

I guess this post should be in 'Boeing 727 Holiday jets'....SWBKCB

[rog747]

Just to be specific, a key mod the UK CAA required, the insertion of an extra door in the fuselage, was not a 727 issue per-se, but was because of the high seat count Dan-Air was going to put into them -
I wonder Channel Airways never got hit with the same when they put the 4+3 across seating into the Trident.

The Channel Tridents had four Type 1 doors with slides, and four over wing exits, and at 139 seats, did not exceed 149 pax which I think was, and still is an important exit number cut off.
I think the Trident One E-140 was allowed up to a max of 149 pax>?
(One more door than a Trident 2)

The Trident 3B, stretched for up to 180 seats, had five doors, including now one door placed aft, however just two, but larger over wing exits.
BEA/BA deactivated the mid cabin service door - but it was there.
They were up to > 140Y.
Later BA Shuttle a/c were 146Y

The 727-100 had only two Type 1 doors and four over wing exits - 131-134 pax was the norm for them. (They had the rear air stairs too but this was not a main exit?)

[Alan Baker]

As regards exit door limits, 4 main doors and one overwing exit each side meant a maximum of 149 seats (and still does). When Monarch bought Boeing 720Bs from Northwest with this layout, they had them modified at Boeing Wichita with an extra overwing exit each side (as on the 707 and which had always been an option, rarely specified, on the 720). This meant they could put as many seats as they could fit in up to the legal maximum for this layout of 189.

[WHBM]

The D.P. Davies Royal Aviation Society audio interviews provide a fascinating record of both the 707 and 727 UK certifications
Notably, although Davies' classic text "Handling the Big Jets" is titled generically, about what was being introduced in the early 1960s when it was published, it seems to be wholly about the 707 - which of course is the type he was involved with. Somehow I get the impression that the 707 was more of a handful than the DC8, especially in upsets, but overall was the better design, and it would be interesting to discuss why.

We used to have a fascinating experienced poster here, 411A (named after his personal Cessna light aircraft) who had both 707 and DC8 past experience, as well as his all-time favourite Tristar, and who would leapt at such a comparison, but I'm afraid he headed for the heavens some years ago, a sad loss to all.

[boeing_eng]

Mind you, during the 70s (when this would have been happening) Britannia engineering looked after the IAS DC-8s, which came to Luton for their hangar visits.

Britiannia scrapped a Zambian registered DC-8 (9J-ABR) at LTN during the roasting Summer of 1976. IAS had purchased it for spares...

[dixi188]

Mind you, during the 70s (when this would have been happening) Britannia engineering looked after the IAS DC-8s, which came to Luton for their hangar visits.

Britiannia scrapped a Zambian registered DC-8 (9J-ABR) at LTN during the roasting Summer of 1976. IAS had purchased it for spares...
I remember the Zambian DC-8. It had been parked at Bournemouth for a while. I think it was ex Alitalia srs.40 with RR Conways.

[treadigraph]

Correct, 9J-ABR was ex Alitalia. An educational moment; I either didn't know or had forgotten the DC-8 43s had Conways!

[WHBM]

Correct, 9J-ABR was ex Alitalia. An educational moment; I either didn't know or had forgotten the DC-8 43s had Conways!
Douglas had a go at changing over a couple of DC8-40s they had taken in part exchange to Pratt & Whitneys (thus DC8-50s). Apparently cost too much, and didn't work out well at all. More different than one might think. Elements such as the engine mounts on the wing had been done differently for the two engines.

I think the only secondhand sale of any consequence of them was Air Canada selling a couple to Cubana, avoiding issues with US engines when there was a US sales ban on P&W spares to Cuba.