Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

[Matthew Illsley]

​​​​​​I'm a researcher assisting Dr David Clarke of Sheffield Hallam University.

On or around 4th August 1990, an unidentified, "diamond-shaped" aircraft was photographed flying beside a Harrier jump jet near Calvine, Scotland, having possibly used the Machrihanish U.S. air base.

The negatives were passed to the Daily Record newspaper (Scotland’s biggest tabloid) which quickly handed them to the Ministry of Defence. After being twice interviewed by the military, the photographer (likely a deer poacher) has never again come forward and his identity is unknown, the negatives have never been located (and have likely been destroyed), and the newspaper itself never ran the story (likely because the Daily Record's editor in 1990 was himself a member of what today is known as the Defence and Security Media Advisory Committee, the body which issues "do not publish" notices to the media).

The MoD conducted at least 2 investigations into the photos in both 1990 and 1992. Declassified letters written on 18th and 22nd December 1992 by the British Air Attaché in Washington D.C. state that the UK's Defence Intelligence Staff contacted the DIA & CIA, ‘to ask if the United States had anything flying off Machrihanish,’ and that the best of the 6 photos was to be taken to the USA in January 1993, ‘so that both intelligence communities can look at it together.'

Two witnesses have independently confirmed that a copy of the best of the 6 photos was blown-up to poster size and pinned to the wall in the Secretariat Air Staff office for several years in the early 1990s, but that a positive declaration of the craft’s identity was never made.

Twelve former RAF Harrier pilots from the period in question have also told us that they never heard of this incident during their careers, and that tallies with our belief that the Harrier was itself American and flying from Machrihanish.

The case files that the MoD saw fit to preserve and release are very limited and highly disorganised. They contain no negatives, no photos, no vu-foils, and no analysis reports related to this case, all of which at one time are known to have existed. What they do contain is a very low-resolution scan of a fax of a photocopy of part of just 1 of the 6 photos, plus a couple of pages of heavily redacted “minutes”. Moreover, in January 2020, the MoD contacted The National Archives and successfully arranged for the redactions in the file to remain in place until 2076.

If anyone therefore has any relevant information on this matter, Dr Clarke and I would be very grateful to hear from you.

Thank you.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/852x761/capture_d57d6a38f249a9d30901b102f054a9106fd56b5f.jpg


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/767x542/calvine01_fa57fbdf876128633bf89b0c5825d3ef45afd3df.jpg


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/854x456/capture2_6a63df23cbb79dbfa8acb4070c836cf4aa1328af.jpg



https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/729x802/capture3_7f75518ccda34e4d6d4e72dc47a77436feb85076.jpg

[India Four Two]

Good luck, Matthew. It sounds like an interesting story.

Based on my one visit to Macrihanish as supernumerary crew on a Lyneham C-130, you should probably talk to the Campbeltown fish merchants. When I was there, there were several transport aircraft of various sizes, picking up orders of fish, during their "practice diversions". ;)

While waiting for our fish to arrive, the captain kept one engine running, rather than trust the APU, because he wasn't supposed to be there!

[Spunky Monkey]

Why would a deer poacher be carrying a camera?

[SpringHeeledJack]

If the 'Harrier' was an AV-8 of the USMC, that would lead me to think that the accompanying mystery craft would have been of terrestrial origin and from the USA. Allegedly Macrihanish was used for other test-flights of the enigmatic Aurora spotted by that ex-observer corps chap on an oil-rig some time in the early-90's, so perhaps this was another such flight with an accompanying aircraft to muddy the radar returns should any ATC become overly interested.

[Matthew Illsley]

Thank you to everyone who replied. We understood initially that the men were out walking, but it was then suggested to us by a senior ex-military source that they had been poaching, hence the camera. They were out in the middle of nowhere on a remote, private, 90,000-acre deer reserve at dusk, having driven 13 miles to get there. The camera was to capture a shot of they bagged a prize, but they allegedly got more than they bargained for.

[chevvron]

There were several other UFO sightings near Macrihanish in about 1989 and later but these were all triangular not diamond shaped.

[Matthew Illsley]

llegedly Macrihanish was used for other test-flights of the enigmatic Aurora spotted by that ex-observer corps chap on an oil-rig some time in the early-90's, so perhaps this was another such flight with an accompanying aircraft to muddy the radar returns should any ATC become overly interested.

Yes, we agree this is a distinct possibility. The odd thing was, the chief witness described the Harrier overflying from south to north at high altitude the stationary, hovering UFO (and we use that term strictly in a literal non-alien sense), and then a few minutes later, presumably the same Harrier came from the north and circled the UFO several times before leaving again. The UFO then took off vertically (allegedly).

[treadigraph]

Looking at the "photograph", I can't help but think F-117 - front looks very similar, perhaps with some form of shadowed condensation creating an illusion for the rear of the diamond? I note the text in the first image added by Senior Pilot says that it was "stationary" but it seems credible to me that the poachers, er, walkers have either got their story wrong or embellished it a bit. I mean, that's never happened before! :}

[Timelord]

I was shown an original print of this photo in the course of my duties around that time. As a UFO sceptic I was utterly gobsmacked. It wasn’t an F117 (and why would an F117 be at low level?) , or any aircraft revealed before or since. I had no explanation for it and have been a lot less sceptical since!

It was noted at the time that it was taken on a Saturday when, as we know, no routine FJ LL flying takes place.

[dervish]

Well, the letter is genuine. Check out the spelling.

[Matthew Illsley]

I was shown an original print of this photo in the course of my duties around that time. As a UFO sceptic I was utterly gobsmacked. It wasn’t an F117 (and why would an F117 be at low level?) , or any aircraft revealed before or since. I had no explanation for it and have been a lot less sceptical since!

It was noted at the time that it was taken on a Saturday when, as we know, no routine FJ LL flying takes place.

Hi Timelord. Thank you so much for your post. I have messaged you directly through PPRUNE. Would you check your inbox, please? Thanks again.

[Yellow Sun]

Dr David Clarke (https://www.shu.ac.uk/about-us/our-people/staff-profiles/david-clarke#content) has quite an interesting profile. It's not too difficult to see that his interest is serious but he's certainly not a ufologist. If you wish to delve deeper into this sort of thing I would recommend Michael Shermer's book as a primer. (https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=30892871751&cm_sp=Searchmod-_-NullResults-_-BDP)

They were out in the middle of nowhere on a remote, private, 90,000-acre deer reserve at dusk, having driven 13 miles to get there. The camera was to capture a shot of they bagged a prize, but they allegedly got more than they bargained for.

Poachers don't take photos.

YS

[bobward]

Looking at the 'defensive lines to take' in the original post, reminds me of the classic Yes Minister series.
Any time they wanted to trash a report certain lines were taken. Some of the statements in the quote above look very familiar.....
Remember the Official Secrets Act is not to protect secrets: it protects officials.
According to Sir Humphrey, try one or other of the following:
It leaves important questions unanswered;
Much of the evidence is inconclusive;
Certain findings are contradictory;
Some of the main findings have been questioned (if not, question them yourself)


Thinking back to air shows (remember those?). Every time a 'low observable' aircraft flew past it would have a couple of F15's in close escort. Maybe the same applied in the case above.

[Matthew Illsley]

Poachers don't take photos.

YS

Well, I would be more than happy to hear from you if you were in some way involved and know otherwise, but on this point we have a senior former defence intelligence source who interviewed the witnesses at the time, and we're only repeating what he says they were doing. They initially told the RAF they were out walking, but who takes a camera out on a walk at 8.30pm?

[unmanned_droid]

The most sus thing about all of this is US Harriers operating from RAF Machrihanish. I know there is/was a US presence there, however a US harrier det would have been recorded somewhere, either photographically or on paper. I see you posted the same thing on fightercontrol - someone there probably has logs.

The 'photo' looks pretty iffy. Would not trust it at all.

The shape vaguely resembles some projects which could have looked like 'pumpkin seeds' but they were for very fast applications.

The whole thing seems like a cover for a F-117 Det or the thing that supposedly worked with them. Visits of the F-117 to the UK are rumoured to have happened in this period and a little before. An F-117 attended Mildenhall Air Fete in 92, which I think is the first acknowledged public visit?

[Maoraigh1]

Calvine - off the A9? Nowhere near Cambeltown. Speculation it was operating from there. there.
August 4, it would be light at 8.30 PM BST there. Returning from a walk with a camera would not be unusual.

[Matthew Illsley]

I was shown an original print of this photo in the course of my duties around that time. As a UFO sceptic I was utterly gobsmacked. It wasn’t an F117 (and why would an F117 be at low level?) , or any aircraft revealed before or since. I had no explanation for it and have been a lot less sceptical since!

It was noted at the time that it was taken on a Saturday when, as we know, no routine FJ LL flying takes place.

Hi Timelord,

For no reason I can fathom (I'm a newbie?), PPRUNE is allowing me to have just 1 message on the system, and that's for my inbox, outbox, etc. As I had sent you 1 message, I received an email saying it had refused to accept your 1 message to me. Very helpful.

[Dan Gerous]

Never been to Machrihanish, but looking on gaggle earth, there's a town at one end of the runway, a golf course at the other, and plenty of housing dotted around the airfield, so I find it hard to believe that nobody has seen or heard anything strange going on there over the years.

[Lima Juliet]

Looks like a fake to me…

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/810x539/image_f875b44455077e6fd40f5096d1265ad30fdaa8a9.jpeg
in fact, it looks like this is a colourised version mocked up by Nick Pope (the chap that thinks he is Mulder out of the X Files :8). [Edit - Pope was an EO grade (now a D grade) in the MOD - equivalent to Flt Lt in RAF terms, ie. Not very senior).

Anyway, let’s look at the facts. The alleged photo was taken in Perthshire which is about 115 miles away from Machrihanish. The base is the other side of Glasgow airspace and so hardly a likely routing. There is no reason to use a crappy Harrier to intercept it either - it’s slow, in 1990 the Shar only had a crappy BLUE FOX radar and the USMC’s APG-65 AV-8Bs weren’t ready until 1993. Anyway, there were no Harriers on QRA back in 1990 - that would have been either F4 Phantoms or Tornado F3. Seeing as 4 Aug 90 was a Saturday then the only assets would have been the QRA intercept jets, the TANSOR tankers, the national standby helos and tactical air mobility aircraft and the various Air Cadet flying activities in Chipmunks and Ventures. No Harriers - in fact, given it was 1990 then the UK’s Harrier GR5s were not even combat capable due to wiring issues in the hard points (hence they didn’t go to Op GRANBY in the following months in 1990) and so that picture above shows a Harrier with tanks which is unlikely. It could be a RN SHar but then again, why send your slowest non-RADAR missile equipped interceptor when you have F4s and F3s that are way faster and more capable than the FRS1? RAF Leuchars with live armed F4s in 1990 is just 50 miles from Calvine, Pitlochry - they are on 10 minutes standby and could be there within 15 minutes of being scrambled from scratch. Also, the UK Low Flying System is normally closed at weekends to fast jet traffic.

Then there is the dubious story of the “Poachers”, how very convenient. It reminds me of the “Surgeon’s Photo” of the Loch Ness Monster. For years Nessie hunters swooned over the most likely photo of the ‘monster’ because it was taken by a respected Surgeon. The photo analysis folks said it was genuine and for years it was the goto picture of Nessie:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/976x549/image_65cccdba1b989152150fe3df9f366f83a47f6d70.jpeg

Well it was, right up to the point when the Surgeon’s family said it was actually a FAKE. It was a plasticine head stuck on a clockwork toy submarine!


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/298x246/4401b33c_9360_48d1_953f_e4ebfb971ea1_cc48ab9b62e67a6d9799ca0 e20fb170844153495.jpeg

There is so much that doesn’t quite add up about the 4 Aug 1990 story. I also find it hard to believe that someone from an intelligent alien race would be flying around the glens on a Saturday without dropping in to speak to the country’s leadership - they’ve come a long way for a mundane smash along the glens!! Again, it could be a trial aircraft, but why would you fly a test and evaluation aircraft around the glens of Pitlochry on a Saturday?

So sadly, using the Occam’s Razor theory then the most likely explanation is a fake. The photo analysis people couldn’t find evidence of tampering (like the Surgeon’s photo) and so they had a flap about in Town and the whole thing has become a legend in itself (just like the 1934 Surgeon’s photo of Nessie that was only revealed as a fake some 60 years later!).

[Timelord]

That is a fake. It’s a mocked up reproduction of the actual photo.

[Timelord]

Hi Timelord,

For no reason I can fathom (I'm a newbie?), PPRUNE is allowing me to have just 1 message on the system, and that's for my inbox, outbox, etc. As I had sent you 1 message, I received an email saying it had refused to accept your 1 message to me. Very helpful.

Would you mind, therefore, emailing me directly with your original message, please? My address is [email protected] or on Twitter @IllsleyMatthew

I apologise for the inconvenience.

Kind regards,

Matthew

e mailed Dr Clarke, info you.

[KPax]

I saw this picture, it was sent to RAF Pitreavie Castle where the picture was given to the Int Cell, we never saw the picture again years later I thought it was an F117 with 2 Harriers.

[Lima Juliet]

KPax

That would make more sense. The Gulf War was just starting with the invasion of Kuwait 2 days prior. The F117 hadn’t broken cover then even though the RAF had flown it several times prior. Sqn Ldr Graham Wardell was on the programme and is listed as BANDIT 282 here: F-117 pilots - Bandit Numbers (http://www.ais.org/~schnars/aero/bandits.htm)

Sadly, I saw Graham perish executing a loaded roll at an Airshow in Slovakia several years later.

So, the most likely explanation is that a F117 came over and was being escorted in the low flying system by a Harrier (possibly a non-RAF one from the USMC or maybe even BAe? Wardell worked for BAe shortly afterwards). That might by why the file is locked away as it may be linked to a US UK ‘special arrangement memoranda. I know that the RAF considered buying into the Nighthawk Programme.

So no little green men to be seen in all likelihood!

Also, the “Poachers” reported seeing the aircraft go straight up and out of sight. Seeing as it was reportedly low cloud then a weather abort upwards will look like that to the untrained eye.

I should say that I saw with my own eyes the RQ-170 Sentinel well before it became popular knowledge - I had to give my eyes a rub to ensure my eyes weren’t tricking me. For a while after it was subject to much speculation as “The Beast of Kandahar”, but even then it was forbidden to talk about it. There were pictures adorning walls for some time and spotters websites speculated constantly about it. There are aircraft that fly under a cloak of secrecy for many years like F117 and RQ-170, and so it wouldn’t surprise me at all that this is what happened back in Aug 1990.

[Timelord]

I have no idea if the picture was genuine, but it wasn’t an F117.

[Lima Juliet]

May have been a HAVE BLUE development? Or a version of the so-called “hopeless diamond” of which there is no acknowledgement nor photographs? I still think this is far more likely than an episode of Mulder and Skully!


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x600/image_63bb6f19807ea41bf10b405ba7930ed1cfec0f8e.jpeg

Lockheed Martin did patent a design of it

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/500x522/image_80d5917f33359cb5f2d55b226aec907993a3fbbc.jpeg
First filed in 1979: https://patents.google.com/patent/US5250950A/en

[Matthew Illsley]

May have been a HAVE BLUE development? Or a version of the so-called “hopeless diamond” of which there is no acknowledgement nor photographs? I still think this is far more likely than an episode of Mulder and Skully!


Hello,

I also thought this was a likely answer, so I spoke to James C. Goodall about it (I'm not allowed to post URLs, but more is available about him online).

He told me that, 'The two Have Blue technology demonstrators and Senior Prom were never flown outside of the Nellis range. Not sure what [is in the photo], but it wasn’t a Skunk Works aircraft.'

As he is also a recognised expert on the F-117 (according to what it says online), that only added to the mystery.

He suggested it may have been a British-made stealth prototype, or it might have been a stealth variant from another US works, although again, he pointed out that there's no real evidence any such craft were made.

If the Hopeless Diamond thus ever flew real missions, or even came into British airspace, it's one really well-kept secret.

[dead_pan]

Dunno about the mystery shape in the photo, but the chase aircraft looks more like a Hunter to my eye.

[Matthew Illsley]

Just as another point of potential interest, the diamond-shaped craft shown in file DEFE-31-180-1 appears to possibly have a blunt right-hand end. This could, of course, be many things, but...

It's often derided as being akin to the "blueprint for the Millennium Falcon", but in Salvatore Pais's U.S. Navy patent US10144532B2, the diamond-shaped craft that's depicted there has, 'a frustum or cone on its leading portion of its main body... the frustum is rotatable about its own axis or has the ability to rotate.'

Again, I can't post URLs or images ( :mad: ) but searching online for US10144532B2 will bring it up if anyone is interested.

[unmanned_droid]

Just as another point of potential interest, the diamond-shaped craft shown in file DEFE-31-180-1 appears to possibly have a blunt right-hand end. This could, of course, be many things, but...

It's often derided as being akin to the "blueprint for the Millennium Falcon", but in Salvatore Pais's U.S. Navy patent US10144532B2, the diamond-shaped craft that's depicted there has, 'a frustum or cone on its leading portion of its main body... the frustum is rotatable about its own axis or has the ability to rotate.'

Again, I can't post URLs or images ( :mad: ) but searching online for US10144532B2 will bring it up if anyone is interested.

More likely to be a bad butcher or mask of a photo of a 117 that has then been stretched slightly.

[treadigraph]

Again, I can't post URLs or images ( :mad: ) but searching online for US10144532B2 will bring it up if anyone is interested.

Once you've reached the magic 10 posts you should be able to post images and PM people...

Interesting discussion, love to see the original photos were it possible.

[dead_pan]

Matthew - I'm intrigued to know about the purpose of this research. Is this a part of Dr Clark's primary research effort?

Aurora is interesting as, although its existence has been repeatedly denied, it was explicitly referred to in an edition of the Pentagon's 'Soviet Military Power' back in the day, the publication in question being hastily withdrawn at its launch event when one of the bigwigs spotted the oversight (this story was recounted in Flight International at the time). Of course, its mention could have been some elaborate disinformation scheme.

There was also a story circulating about a mishap at Boscombe Down, I believe in the early/mid-90s, the Americans turning up in force with screens to prevent spotters prying with their long lenses.

[treadigraph]

According to Ben Rich, "Aurora" was the DoD's code name for B-2 development funding... true/untrue?

[Ewan Whosearmy]

LOMCEVAC was there that day and is adamant that it's all over active imaginations.

[dead_pan]

According to Ben Rich

How many conspiracy theories start with these four words?

Talking of which, I recall attending an energy conference in the US a few years back during which an esteemed professor from a prestigious US uni ended his lecture with an entirely serious and non-ironic comment that, "according to Ben Rich", Einstein had got his famous equation all wrong, that it was in fact e=mc^2.5. Cue fits of giggles from us assembled Brits.

[Matthew Illsley]

Matthew - I'm intrigued to know about the purpose of this research. Is this a part of Dr Clark's primary research effort?

Aurora is interesting as, although its existence has been repeatedly denied, it was explicitly referred to in an edition of the Pentagon's 'Soviet Military Power' back in the day, the publication in question being hastily withdrawn at its launch event when one of the bigwigs spotted the oversight (this story was recounted in Flight International at the time). Of course, its mention could have been some elaborate disinformation scheme.

There was also a story circulating about a mishap at Boscombe Down, I believe in the early/mid-90s, the Americans turning up in force with screens to prevent spotters prying with their long lenses.

Hello. I've messaged you via PPRUNE. Thanks

[Beamr]

A blimp is what comes to mind. Stationary mid air, leaves vertically. Climb speed probably exaggerated, but one could look at how the Good Year blimp zoom climbs, it is surprisingly good. There was serious airship development in the UK up until early 90's when Aerospace Developments/Airship Industries failed.

Noteworthy is that in the 80's there was development of lenticular airships in the UK by Thermo Skyships which acquired AD and formed Aerospace Skyships.

Thene there are the hybrid airships that combine airplanes and airships.

I've no evidence what is in the original picture nor if it is legit, but also I've no idea what is the attitude of the diamond shape object in the grainy picture. It could by all means be eg Aereon 26 from a certain angle (it is not, but I'm trying to make a point here).

Knowing that eyewitnesses are unreliable and that the good quality original pictures are not available and that the related documents have been classified for further 50 years well until 2070's, someone knows what it is, and I believe it is terrestial. A blimp fits the general description of maneuvers, rigid airship may fit the shape on the picture and classifying fits the military design purpose.

[Timelord]

I have no idea if the picture was genuine, but it wasn’t a blimp.

[Davef68]

Well, I would be more than happy to hear from you if you were in some way involved and know otherwise, but on this point we have a senior former defence intelligence source who interviewed the witnesses at the time, and we're only repeating what he says they were doing. They initially told the RAF they were out walking, but who takes a camera out on a walk at 8.30pm?

In that part of Scotland at that time of the year it's not going to get dark until well after 10PM.

On the grainy picture, it's hard to say what the aircraft is - could be a Harrier, could be a Hunter or even a Phantom (Both of the latter based in Scotland at the time). I doubt it's a USMC aircraft - as others have said, these would have been spotted and logged. It could have been a BAE or AAEE aircraft. Both GR3s and the Development GR5s did operate out of West Freugh in the late 80s/early 90s and that would seem a much more likely location than Macrahannish. (For some reason everything sneaky beaky in Scotland seems to be linked to Mac, when West Freugh was a much more secret place).It's also more likely for a Saturday flight than 'regular' RAF or RN

It's probably too early, but BAE did test some 'stealth' shapes via sub-scale remote control/UAV aircraft

[scotpen]

I saw this picture, it was sent to RAF Pitreavie Castle where the picture was given to the Int Cell, we never saw the picture again years later I thought it was an F117 with 2 Harriers.
Ex Pitreavie Int here. We did have a dark red file on this general topic but it contained nothing that persuaded me we were having ET visitors.
Also later worked in the next office to Nick Pope and same applies.

[Haraka]

As in any investigation, the provenance of any evidence submitted has to be established before furthering for any evaluated consideration.....

I don't see that here......

[Yellow Sun]

Well, I would be more than happy to hear from you if you were in some way involved and know otherwise, but on this point we have a senior former defence intelligence source who interviewed the witnesses at the time, and we're only repeating what he says they were doing. They initially told the RAF they were out walking, but who takes a camera out on a walk at 8.30pm?

Matthew, before embarking in an enquiry you need to do some groundwork. That’s what enables you to discard the elements that aren’t worth any effort and formulate a plan with proper lines of research. Here’s a short reading list that will help:

We are Bellingcat by Eliot Higgins (https://www.bellingcat.com/book/). If you are not already familiar with it, have a good look at the Bellingcat website as well.

Spying on the Bomb by Jeffrey T Richelson (https://wwnorton.com/books/Spying-on-the-Bomb/) A good primer on the use of open source intelligence.

I note with interest that one of Dr Clarke’s main interests is in “Contemporary Legend”. (https://www.shu.ac.uk/about-us/our-people/staff-profiles/david-clarke#content)

YS

[KiloB]

According to Occam, the most likely explanation is that someone took a picture of a passing Harrier without noticing that a kid was flying a kite in the foreground.

[LowObservable]

Ex Pitreavie Int here. We did have a dark red file on this general topic but it contained nothing that persuaded me we were having ET visitors.
Also later worked in the next office to Nick Pope and same applies.

Nick Pope didn't have ET visitors?

[Matthew Illsley]

Matthew, before embarking in an enquiry you need to do some groundwork. That’s what enables you to discard the elements that aren’t worth any effort and formulate a plan with proper lines of research.

YS

With respect to several other comments, we have no preconceived ideas one way or the other. UFO was used by me as a popularly understood term of reference purely in the literal sense of the MoD files apparently showing a flying object that remains publicly unidentified. I have not suggested that aliens were visiting Scotland in 1990.

With respect to our groundwork, as others have correctly indicated, we're up against official secrecy and a 32-year history gap. We've found multiple witnesses who were somewhat involved, but many won't talk, others are quite elderly and understandably don't recall matters in great detail, and, of those who have spoken out, none have had a "smoking gun" or retained any revelatory evidence. Many other key witnesses are dead, including the Daily Record's then-editor and photo editor. Moreover, the state appears to have destroyed almost all the evidence it once possessed, it might not be being truthful about other aspects of the case, and it is still covering up key details by actively preventing the release of information from the National Archives until 2076.

Overall, we are pursuing multiple lines of enquiry, a minor one of which is to solicit new and useful responses on public fora, some of which we were grateful to receive from members of PPRuNe. Hopefully, other witnesses will come forward, or our other avenues of research may bear fruit. Given the circumstances and the passage of time, though, we accept that the odds are against us.

Elsewhere, Davef68's comments re: a privately operated UAV seem reasonable to me and I will look into that angle. Thank you for that suggestion.

[BFM]

Why the interest?

[Matthew Illsley]

Why the interest?

Hi BFM,

I presume this was to me.

I have always enjoyed mysteries and this seemed to fit the bill. The photos, according to Nick Pope, are the "best ever" of a UFO (however that word is interpreted) ever taken.

That seemed to be a good enough reason to take a look.

​​​​​​​All the best.

[Ninthace]

The only pictures I can find are the one posted in this thread and ones of the ac and object in the self same orientation but with a different landscape. I note that in the most popular image, that published in this thread, the object is more sharply focussed than anything else in the picture. It looks like it has either been retouched or is an artist’s impression. Is that actually the real picture?

[Lima Juliet]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x387/image_bd9a4b40867fefb4ddf8d69d64490f59ab65918a.jpeg


The UAV/Drone people are hinting at are Corax and Raven - some photos here: https://ukdefenceforum.net/viewtopic.php?t=370

Howevet, these were pretty small having seen them. Around 15ft wingspan at the most. They led to the full sized Taranis that is about the size of a BAe Hawk. However, these are 21st century aircraft.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/710x401/image_391582d439fe7da9d3e6b496c61195b59fccbd29.jpeg

[Matthew Illsley]

The only pictures I can find are the one posted in this thread and ones of the ac and object in the self same orientation but with a different landscape. I note that in the most popular image, that published in this thread, the object is more sharply focussed than anything else in the picture. It looks like it has either been retouched or is an artist’s impression. Is that actually the real picture?

Hello. We have been told by multiple people directly involved that 6 clear, full-colour photos were taken. The photographer supposedly sent all 6 negatives to the Daily Record. "The best" of the 6 was printed and sent to the RAF in Scotland for comment. This was forwarded to the MOD, and then the newspaper, at MOD's request, sent on the negatives for analysis. They were allegedly returned to the newspaper, which itself claims to have no record of them. After the passage of decades, and the transfer to digital imagery, that's not particularly unbelievable, especially as they never printed the story. They may even have sent them back to the photographer who has maintained his silence ever since he was interviewed by the military.

Again, to the best of our knowledge, the black and white image is a very low quality scan of a photocopy (perhaps of another photocopy) of just a fraction of 1 of the 6 photos.

Every colour image online is a recreation to our knowledge.

[Beamr]

Again, to the best of our knowledge, the black and white image is a very low quality scan of a photocopy (perhaps of another photocopy) of just a fraction of 1 of the 6 photos.


That does not boost confidence on the picture at hand. Considering the 90's photocopy and scanning technology including zoom we could be looking at just about anything.
Timelord: have you actually seen an original color version without any zoom? What is your recollection compared to the recreated versions? Which are recreated out of someones (Nick Popes) memory so I would not give much credit to it as memories fade and people tend to emphasize what they think they saw/heard/thought.

[Timelord]

Beamer, It was a long time ago, but my recollection is that the copy I saw was black and white. It was sharp, on glossy photo paper ( not a photocopy) and looked authentic. The mock up on line is a pretty accurate recreation but I think the “object” was lower and not exactly side on. My impression at the time was that the circling aircraft was a Hunter but it could have been a Harrier.

I was a UFO sceptic, but the picture was enough to give me pause for thought . The story that Mathew Illsley tells makes it even more interesting. It may have been a fake, but it was certainly not any aircraft revealed before or since or a blimp / balloon/ kite etc.

[dead_pan]

We have been told by multiple people directly involved that 6 clear, full-colour photos were taken.

But I assume not all of them featured the RAF chase aircraft, just the mystery object in question.

Re the negatives, all you can say definitively is that their whereabouts are unknown (to you and your colleagues). Anything more is speculation which could undermine the credibility of the investigation.

Final comment about the MoD seeking to retain the redacted elements of their report until 2076. Whilst I understand there may be a desire to read into the existence of some nefarious scheme to hide 'the truth' from the public, there is often a more mundane, down-to-Earth explanation regarding national security. Don't forget the Govt didn't reveal the activities of Station X until the mid 90s, due in a large part to the groundbreaking work they did their which formed the basis for western intelligence gathering for the next 50 years.

[dead_pan]

My impression at the time was that the circling aircraft was a Hunter but it could have been a Harrier.

I noted that earlier in the thread. This could explain why the 12 former Harrier pilots had no recollection i.e. asking the wrong people? Who were flying Hunters at this time?

[chevvron]

.
Also later worked in the next office to Nick Pope and same applies.
Then you will know that he wasn't operating the 'UFO desk' like people try to make out but was just a glorified clerical officer who filed things.
I still have a photocopy of the list of duties carried out in that section but I can't reveal it because of the OSA.

[Dan Gerous]

That would make more sense. The Gulf War was just starting with the invasion of Kuwait 2 days prior. The F117 hadn’t broken cover then even though the RAF had flown it several times prior.



The F117 was known about before the invasion of Kuwait. There were pictures of it in the aviation press in 1989. I was sitting by the pool at the compound I lived in in Saudi when a KC10 and 2 F117's broke overhead for Khamis, just after the invasion, and we all knew what they were.

[scotpen]

Then you will know that he wasn't operating the 'UFO desk' like people try to make out but was just a glorified clerical officer who filed things.
I still have a photocopy of the list of duties carried out in that section but I can't reveal it because of the OSA.
Agreed. My role gave me excellent access and, as I meant to imply, nothing I saw or heard suggested any ET activity.

[Davef68]

I noted that earlier in the thread. This could explain why the 12 former Harrier pilots had no recollection i.e. asking the wrong people? Who were flying Hunters at this time?

Still a few about - 237 OCU at Lossie had some two seaters and there was a mix of two and single seaters at A&AEE/ETPS/RAE.

[Matthew Illsley]

But I assume not all of them featured the RAF chase aircraft, just the mystery object in question.

Re the negatives, all you can say definitively is that their whereabouts are unknown (to you and your colleagues). Anything more is speculation which could undermine the credibility of the investigation.

Final comment about the MoD seeking to retain the redacted elements of their report until 2076. Whilst I understand there may be a desire to read into the existence of some nefarious scheme to hide 'the truth' from the public, there is often a more mundane, down-to-Earth explanation regarding national security. Don't forget the Govt didn't reveal the activities of Station X until the mid 90s, due in a large part to the ground-breaking work they did their which formed the basis for western intelligence gathering for the next 50 years.

Hello.

Yes, the negatives' location (nay, continued existence) is publicly unknown and unknown to us, too. I'm trying not to speculate, but perhaps my words aren't as accurate as I intended them to be.
A directly involved source has told us the Daily Record made 6 colour photos from the negatives.
A directly involved source has told us that the RAF was sent at least 1 of these colour photos and that the MoD received all the negatives.
A directly involved source has told us that Nick Pope's claim about the Calvine poster being on the wall was true.
We know, again from directly involved sources, of two important documents (not including the photos themselves, JARIC analysis, etc.) that were made during the course of the RAF's and Defence Intel's investigations that were not included in the released files and which are now presumed deliberately destroyed.

Just to clarify, the MoD/National Archives insist that there are no other Calvine-related (or UFO-related for that matter) files in existence, and that EVERYTHING has been released. They say that the ONLY thing they're keeping secret now is the FOIA Section 40 material in the released files (names, addresses, job titles, etc). They used to release these without any problem (you can see even the names and addresses of children who allegedly saw UFOs in the 60s and 70s in the files, names and phone numbers and job titles of civil servants, etc), but since DPA/GDPR/FOIA, the shutters have come down.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Hi Matthew

You are presumably aware that some years ago the MoD released/declassified a UFO report in which the only major redaction was one entry on a list of possible US aircraft that could be mistaken for extra terrestrial craft. From memory, the list included the SR-71 and F-117.

You are also presumably aware that there are RAF aircrew who have seen unidentified aircraft (not aliens) in UK airspace, at least one of whom mentions it in his autobiography.

It might be helpful to FOIA for the redacted identity of the aircraft in the report. This might have absolutely nothing to do with do with the Calvine incident, but as others have indicated, there is much we don't know about "black" aerospace programmes from that time, and a 'worldly' explanation is much more likely that an 'other-worldy' one.

[Ninthace]

The area itself makes no sense to be stooging around at apparently low level in broad daylight in an unusual aircraft with a chase plane. Why Calvine? Somewhere in the area of Spadeadam might have made some sort of sense

Machrihanish is mentioned but I do not see why. There seem to be no reports of odd looking aircraft though Campbeltown is close by.

There is no mention of any other sightings on that day from anywhere else or by anyone else. If a thing really was that odd, surely there should be other sighting reports of it in transit?

[Matthew Illsley]

Hi Matthew

You are presumably aware that some years ago the MoD released/declassified a UFO report in which the only major redaction was one entry on a list of possible US aircraft that could be mistaken for extra terrestrial craft. From memory, the list included the SR-71 and F-117.

You are also presumably aware that there are RAF aircrew who have seen unidentified aircraft (not aliens) in UK airspace, at least one of whom mentions it in his autobiography.

It might be helpful to FOIA for the redacted identity of the aircraft in the report. This might have absolutely nothing to do with do with the Calvine incident, but as others have indicated, there is much we don't know about "black" aerospace programmes from that time, and a 'worldly' explanation is much more likely that an 'other-worldy' one.

Hi Ewan,

Thanks for replying.

1. I think you are referring to the Condign Report. If so, I understand that information is being withheld from it in accordance with Section 26 (Defence), Section 27 (International Relations), and Section 40 (Personal Information) of the FOIA. In 2021, I did request (via FOI) access to certain sections of it, but the MoD said it had lost all unredacted copies of it (despite at one point having had several of them). I was then made aware that in 2018, the MoD said they had a complete copy of the report and that they should have sent it to the National Archives in 2020, so I went back to the MoD. I'm currently awaiting their reply...

2. I do know of several aircrew who say have seen unidentified aircraft (not aliens) in UK airspace, but most are quite dated sightings. I'm not sure which autobiography you are referring to. If you would clarify that, and/or you know of recent versions, I would be very keen to hear about them, please. I can be messaged through PPRuNe or via email. My address is on this thread. Thank you.

[dead_pan]

Still a few about - 237 OCU at Lossie had some two seaters and there was a mix of two and single seaters at A&AEE/ETPS/RAE.

The former could make sense given the alleged location, the latter if said craft was indeed some experimental vehicle.

Matthew - maybe another line of enquiry worth pursuing?

[Timelord]

Two hours after contributing to this thread I found myself on the A9 south passing a sign to Calvine. Beautiful flying day but nothing to see! There were indeed Hunters at Lossiemouth in 1990 but I would have thought that operating them on a Saturday night would have attracted a lot of comment. I knew most of the Hunter qualified Lossiemouth pilots at that time and never heard any mention of this incident, but then, if there is anything to it maybe I wouldn’t have.

[Matthew Illsley]

Hello,

If anyone has a direct method of contacting Roger Beazley CBE, I would be very grateful if they might share it with me via DM or email.

Thanks

https://www.linkedin.com/in/roger-beazley-cbe-afc-98b18b14/
https://radaris.co.uk/p/Roger/Beazley/

[Matthew Illsley]

The former could make sense given the alleged location, the latter if said craft was indeed some experimental vehicle.

Matthew - maybe another line of enquiry worth pursuing?

Thank you again to everyone who has commented and/or messaged me privately.

Just as an update, and having collated a few suggestions, it seems that:

1. Many people are doubting Nick Pope's (and the MoD Loose Minute's) claims about the aircraft in the photocopied picture actually being a Harrier.
2. It is being suggested that it might have been a Hunter, although few of either aircraft were flown on weekends in 1990.
3. It is being suggested that Machrihanish is an unlikely site for the chase aircraft to have been based.
4. It is being suggested that I look instead at:

A&AEE = Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment at RAF Boscombe Down in Wiltshire.
ETPS = Empire Test Pilots School at MoD Boscombe Down in Wiltshire.
RAE = Royal Aerospace Establishment (as it was then called in 1990), based at at RAE Farnborough in Hampshire and/or RAE Bedford in Bedfordshire.
237 OCU = Operational Conversion Unit: No 237 OCU, based at Wyton, Cambridgeshire (but which was at Lossiemouth in 1990?).
RAF West Freugh (now MoD West Freugh)

Lossiemouth to Calvine, as the crow flies, is 70 miles straight over the Cairngorms national park (i.e. almost no one there to see anything).
Machrihanish to Calvine, as the crow flies, is 114 miles straight over the Firth of Clyde and Loch Lomond national park (i.e. again, almost no one there to see anything).
West Freugh to Calvine, as the crow flies, is 139 miles straight over Paisley/Glasgow.

(Incidentally, the MoD messaged me today to say that there are no extant unredacted copies of the Condign Report, so we'll never know what was behind the redactions.)

[Ninthace]

August, that area, there would have been enough people about at that time of year to have seen something. The areas are popular with the hiking fraternity and tourists at that time of year. Also, why fly something like that in broad daylight? Sunset would have been around 21:20 and it would not have been properly dark until gone 22:00.

Most airfields have spotters - anything like that leaving an airfield risks being noticed. Enlarging the image provided, I'm pretty sure the ac in the picture is a Harrier, not a Hunter. I would put a pint on it anyway.

[Matthew Illsley]

August, that area, there would have been enough people about at that time of year to have seen something. The areas are popular with the hiking fraternity and tourists at that time of year. Also, why fly something like that in broad daylight? Sunset would have been around 21:20 and it would not have been properly dark until gone 22:00.

Most airfields have spotters - anything like that leaving an airfield risks being noticed. Enlarging the image provided, I'm pretty sure the ac in the picture is a Harrier, not a Hunter. I would put a pint on it anyway.

Thanks, Ninthace.

No one has really questioned the Harrier's identity before tbh (which is not to come down on either side of whether it was or wasn't one). The MoD, for example, has always claimed it's a Harrier in the picture(s), but it has also always denied having any Harriers in the air on that day/time. We've sourced formerly classified Operations Records Books (ORBs) from August 1990 for Harrier Squadrons 1, 3, 4, 233, 800, 801, and 899, but none of them give any indication that anyone flew in Scotland in that period. (Of course, that doesn't mean that someone in a Harrier wasn't vectored in from somewhere else.) Oddly enough, we're also yet to find any Harrier pilots who have even heard of the story before we ask them about it.

FWIW, the hand-written report indicates the witness to have said that the diamond-shaped craft 'ascend[ed] vertically upwards at high speed', so if that's true, it may not have flown to or from any recognised airfield, although given it's alleged size, it would logically have needed to at some point (perhaps in darkness).


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1321x581/123_b64b91a173c4fbbda71c122de3bbf71488321581.png

[Ninthace]

Were there even any Harriers airborne that day from any location according the the ORBs?

No mention of any noise from the object?

Edit to add: 233 Sqn - are you sure? According to what I can find, they disbanded in 1964. I think you mean 233 OCU

Edit to further add. 800 and 801 operated the Sea Harrier and the Harrier in the pictures looks more like a blunt Harrier.

That means your prime RAF suspects for the Harrier were 3(F) and IV(AC) Sqns and they were based in Germany at the time or the OCU at Wittering.

[Haraka]

Oddly enough, we're also yet to find any Harrier pilots who have even heard of the story before we ask them about it.

Shouldn't that tell you something?

[Davef68]

Most airfields have spotters - anything like that leaving an airfield risks being noticed. Enlarging the image provided, I'm pretty sure the ac in the picture is a Harrier, not a Hunter. I would put a pint on it anyway.

The one that never did was West Freugh - they were soon chased by the security.

[Davef68]

Were there even any Harriers airborne that day from any location according the the ORBs?

No mention of any noise from the object?

Edit to add: 233 Sqn - are you sure? According to what I can find, they disbanded in 1964. I think you mean 233 OCU

Edit to further add. 800 and 801 operated the Sea Harrier and the Harrier in the pictures looks more like a blunt Harrier.

That means your prime RAF suspects for the Harrier were 3(F) and IV(AC) Sqns and they were based in Germany at the time or the OCU at Wittering.

It doesn't cover those aircraft operated by the experimental establishments nor BAE, which would seem far more likely for a Saturday night.

[Ninthace]

It doesn't cover those aircraft operated by the experimental establishments nor BAE, which would seem far more likely for a Saturday night.
Were any of them they operating Harriers in 1990, especially on a Saturday evening?

[Lima Juliet]

233 OCU started flying the Harrier GR5 at Wittering in 1988. 1(F) Sqn shortly after in 1989. The Strike Attack OEU IN 1987 from RAF Boscombe Down. Pretty likely that Harrier GR5 was flying in and around West Freugh as they were struggling with the GR5’s weapon systems and hard points around this time. It was the main reason why it didn’t go to Op GRANBY for 1990/91.

Of course, West Freugh has its very own UFO incident from 1957: https://ekladata.com/6OxHJh2L0whv-4ISC0dukL5UOc8/westfreugh.pdf

[Matthew Illsley]

Hi All,

Thanks again for the info. To try and respond to several comments:

1. Re: noise at Calvine, we have a first-hand account from a directly involved source contemporaneous with the incident itself. The source told us that the witness was specifically asked what noise the diamond-shaped craft made, both when it was allegedly hovering and when it took off vertically. The source says that the witness was categorical: "It didn't make any noise at all." Nick Pope, in his book, claims to have learned years later that the craft made a ‘weird humming noise,’ but our source says that is definitely not what the witness said.

2. Yes, I did mean 233 OCU. That was my error. We were told by a former RAF Harrier pilot (flying in 1990) that in that year, 1 Squadron and 233 OCU were the only 2 Harrier units flying in the UK from RAF Wittering. Of course, others did come back for various reasons, including low-level flying.

3. Re: Harriers in August 1990, there's a good article here outlining several of the squadrons' activities: https://www.uapmedia.uk/articles/calvineupdate

4. To date, I believe we have not found any official record of any Harriers over Scotland in August 1990. I believe the closest we've found a unit to have come to Scotland in 1990 was three GR.3s from No.4 Sqn which went to RAF Chivenor at the start of the month and which did sorties over Wales. (EDIT: We assume there must have been some Harriers flying in Scotland, but proving it is another matter.)

5. Strike Attack Operational Evaluation Unit remains an unknown. I have FOI requests in with MoD and TNA asking what, if any, records are held. We also knew that 800/801 operated Sea Harriers, but we just wanted to be thorough in looking at every possibility for which records exist.

6. Re: Haraka's points, [1] We are attempting to establish the provenance of the evidence in having these conversations. Yes, we agree that we don't know if the evidence is wholly genuine. But we disagree that that means we shouldn't try to investigate. [2] Re: the lack of knowledge on the part of 12 former Harrier pilots, we really don't know what it means. We've found 12 who've not known anything. Is that a lot? We don't know how many there were in 1990 in total. We've also only got the MoD's word for it that the aeroplane in the photo was a Harrier and that it was seen on the date in question, plus the MoD destroyed everything else it ever possessed. We also don't know if the assumed Harrier pilot(s) at Calvine in 1990 ever told anyone about what he/they had seen, or if they were flying from experimental bases, for the Americans, or for BAe. If he/they have never spoken out, the lack of knowledge on the part of other mainstream RAF Harrier pilots is understandable. We certainly do know, though, that colour and black-and-white photos did exist and were seen by multiple people up to at least 1998, including several members of PPRuNe.

7. I have received messages regarding West Freugh as a likely site of operations and BAe (or other private, arms-length, aviation companies) as a likely source of the Harrier(s) and/or the diamond. If that was truly the case, we have few to any options, as BAe et al aren't "FOIAable".

8. Presently, one of the biggest issues for me is that we are yet to find anyone who worked at JARIC in 1990. I'd be extremely keen to talk to anyone who was there. If anyone has any contacts, I'd be very grateful if they'd privately let me know.

Thank you.

[SWBKCB]

Re: noise at Calvine, we have a first-hand account from a directly involved source contemporaneous with the incident itself. The source told us that the witness was specifically asked what noise the diamond-shaped craft made, both when it was allegedly hovering and when it took off vertically. The source says that the witness was categorical: "It didn't make any noise at all." Nick Pope, in his book, claims to have learned years later that the craft made a ‘weird humming noise,’ but our source says that is definitely not what the witness said.

If there was a Harrier anywhere near at the time, what else are you likely to hear?

We seem to have two choices here - that the object was 'secret project' operating from a secluded research establishment like West Freugh, in which case a regular squadron Harrier would seem highly unlikely. If it was - what was it doing flying around on a Saturday evening in daylight at low level in central Scotland. Surely more likely places to go and play. It's almost like they wanted to draw attention to themselves.

If it wasn't a 'secret project' and is genuinely an unknown object the time and place become less relevant, but there is still the issue of why a Harrier is there - surely one of the last things you'd send to have a look (availability/speed/radar)?

[Matthew Illsley]

If there was a Harrier anywhere near at the time, what else are you likely to hear?

We seem to have two choices here - that the object was 'secret project' operating from a secluded research establishment like West Freugh, in which case a regular squadron Harrier would seem highly unlikely. If it was - what was it doing flying around on a Saturday evening in daylight at low level in central Scotland. Surely more likely places to go and play. It's almost like they wanted to draw attention to themselves.

If it wasn't a 'secret project' and is genuinely an unknown object the time and place become less relevant, but there is still the issue of why a Harrier is there - surely one of the last things you'd send to have a look (availability/speed/radar)?

Hi SWBKCB,

Thanks for replying.

1. According to the account from the source we have, the witnesses parked at Calvine and then followed a public footpath. They walked over some moorland, entered a copse of trees, climbed a fence onto more open moorland, spotted the diamond craft, leapt back over into the trees and hid. After a moment or two, they re-emerged and the craft was still there just hovering. After a couple of minutes, a Harrier overflew at mid-to-high altitude, apparently returned a couple of minutes later, circled the diamond several times and was photographed doing so, flew off, and then the diamond itself took off vertically. From that account, you can see that there are several periods during which the Harrier wasn't present, hence the witnesses (if honest and accurate) could have "heard" that the diamond wasn't making any noise (if that isn't too contradictory).

2. I concur with your assessment given what we think we "know". For me, the odds of a truly unknown craft appearing over rural Scotland, then randomly being overflown by a Harrier, then circled by the same or another Harrier, seem long (not impossible, of course, but unlikely). If it wasn't a hoax, and despite acknowledging objections to the alleged hovering and silent operation, a secret test would seem to be the "best fit" at the moment. We have been told by a very senior ex-military source that the "several" photos are "definitely NOT a hoax", and that other photos in the set of 6 show two Harriers, one British and one American, which again would fit with this theory (if true and accurate).

3. With regard to, "flying around on a Saturday evening in daylight at low level in central Scotland. Surely more likely places to go and play. It's almost like they wanted to draw attention to themselves," we do only have one alleged witness (there were 2 men walking there apparently, but only 1 is named in the file, only 1 sent the photos in, and only 1 was interviewed), so despite the general area being a popular place for hiking (which in places it is), it's basically in the 1,748 sq mi Cairngorms national park, it's extremely rural, very isolated, and has a lowest-low population density, so, to me at least, the lack of any other sightings isn't that unreasonable. One can only speculate, but if it was secret tech, a temporary mechanical, propulsion, communication, or navigational issue that forced the aircraft down to low level for a few minutes wouldn't seem unreasonable.

Thanks again.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/590x680/calv_56f52b4eb471c73bf3bbdad7aae6da35db27f396.png

[Recc]

3. With regard to, "flying around on a Saturday evening in daylight at low level in central Scotland. Surely more likely places to go and play. It's almost like they wanted to draw attention to themselves," we do only have one alleged witness (there were 2 men walking there apparently, but only 1 is named in the file, only 1 sent the photos in, and only 1 was interviewed), so despite the general area being a popular place for hiking (which in places it is), it's basically in the 1,748 sq mi Cairngorms national park, it's extremely rural, very isolated, and has a lowest-low population density, so, to me at least, the lack of any other sightings isn't that unreasonable. One can only speculate, but if it was secret tech, a temporary mechanical, propulsion, communication, or navigational issue that forced the aircraft down to low level for a few minutes wouldn't seem unreasonable.


I live fairly close by and spend a lot of time in the hills around there. Some of the most popular hills in Scotland are in the area just N of Pitlochry/ Calvine, and at that time of year, on a Saturday evening the area is packed with tourists and hillwalkers, even that late in the evening. There are one or two genuinely remote and unfrequented areas of the Scottish highlands, but the Cairngorms NP / A9 belt are most definitely not in this category. The idea that an event like that could have just a single witness seems highly improbable/ incredible to me. Couple that with the fact that 1. the photographer has remained anonymous 2. they contacted a tabloid newspaper (presumably with the intention of selling the photos) and 3.the newspaper chose not to publish, seem to point in one direction only.

[Alchad]

For what it is worth - probably very, very little - close to Pitlochry is Glen Tilt which amongst the low level aviation fraternity is known as "Star Wars Valley" (not to be confused with Star Wars Canyon in Death Valley),back in the 90's it would probably have seen low level traffic, at least during the week, so perhaps it is not inconceivable that an aircraft could have been spotted there.

Alchad

PS for my money - definitely a harrier in the photo.

[Matthew Illsley]

Then you will know that he wasn't operating the 'UFO desk' like people try to make out but was just a glorified clerical officer who filed things.
I still have a photocopy of the list of duties carried out in that section but I can't reveal it because of the OSA.

Hello,

I've just been re-reading the thread.

With regard to comments re: the Official Secrets Act or OSA, and being very mindful of not wanting to cause any offence or coming across as flippant, I understand that any release of material must be considered "damaging" for prosecution under OSA to take place, that the length of time between an "unauthorised or unlawful disclosure" and the event or situation it relates to is a significant factor in whether to prosecute, and that there's less than 1 prosecution per year under OSA as per https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7422/. When one also considers the cases listed in the Commons document, the punishments seem very slight and very few for anyone except obvious spies clearly endangering national security and others clearly risking others' lives and limbs, e.g.

In July 2007, a senior civilian worker at Scotland Yard was jailed for eight months for leaking information about a planned al-Qaeda attack on the West, but that was on a charge of "wilful misconduct in public office", not for breaching the Official Secrets Act.
Also in 2007/8, a Cabinet Office official was fined £2,500 under the Official Secrets Act after he left classified papers relating to al-Qaeda and Iraq on a train.

Thus, one might argue that someone showing us a 1990 list of duties or a 1990 photo of an unidentified aircraft that they perhaps shouldn't strictly have kept, especially after the passage of 32 years, wouldn't seem to be particularly "damaging" (though, again, I appreciate others might feel differently). We also don't ask people to send us stuff or tell us things if they themselves feel it's a breach of OSA or of loyalty, and we understand many ex-military people still feel bound "in conscience" even after retiring.

As an addendum, it was also pointed out to me that attempted prosecution would be "all but impossible" in this instance because if someone did, say, have a copy of any of the 6 photos, they sent them to me, and the state found out, not only would the "damage" to national security be essentially nil (How would a clearer photo be any more damaging than the photocopy, for example?), but instigating prosecution would in itself confirm the truth of the story, which is what the government has been at pains to prevent all these years (e.g. with the MoD always claiming that the incident was "of no defence significance").

Thanks

[Ninthace]

We still have the issue of one, possibly two, Harriers stooging around the highlands late on a Saturday afternoon in August with no audit trail for where they might have come from. What evidence is there beyond the declaration of the anonymous photographer, that the picture was take at the date and time in question? For example, does the weather in the picture tally with the weather at the time? Is the light angle right for the time of day? The pictures I have seen have two very different backgrounds, has the site of either been physically identified?

The idea of Harriers themselves is interesting - why that type? As has been suggested, it not the best type for a chase aircraft and certainly not a QRA type. Moreover, there is no evidence to suggest they were just passing. Nothing seems to stack up and that diamond does not look like it belongs in the picture.

As to the lack of an MOD paper trail, I would read nothing sinister into that. Files are culled all the time and sent for destruction when they no longer serve any function. The files deemed worthy of retention are sent to long term storage but they undergo further culling to conserve shelf space.

[Matthew Illsley]

We still have the issue of one, possibly two, Harriers stooging around the highlands late on a Saturday afternoon in August with no audit trail for where they might have come from. What evidence is there beyond the declaration of the anonymous photographer, that the picture was take at the date and time in question? For example, does the weather in the picture tally with the weather at the time? Is the light angle right for the time of day? The pictures I have seen have two very different backgrounds, has the site of either been physically identified?

Hello. The senior ex-mil source insists that 1 Harrier was UK, 1 was US, the diamond was real, and the US harrier was there because of the diamond in case it went down. He could, of course, be leading us down the garden path, but one has to trust somebody in all this. The only "real" photo anyone has is the terrible quality photocopy from TNA, and little to nothing can be read from it about the weather/location. All the rest out there are mock-ups, but all the people we've spoken to who saw the actual photos in the 1990s agree that the mock-ups pretty much match what they themselves were shown back then. We think we might know the real location where the photo was taken (TBC).

The idea of Harriers themselves is interesting - why that type? As has been suggested, it not the best type for a chase aircraft and certainly not a QRA type. Moreover, there is no evidence to suggest they were just passing. Nothing seems to stack up and that diamond does not look like it belongs in the picture.

Nothing has ever been said as to "Why were they Harriers?" I speculate, but it is only that, that the Harriers' ability to hover/land might have been potentially required in the event something went wrong with the diamond. Or they just might have been what was to hand on that Saturday at whichever base/installation they came from.

Reasonably, what even accounts for the diamond (assuming it was real and worked as suggested) even flying near Calvine and hovering there, except for some kind of adverse issue? The diamond, perhaps, had an issue, and the Harriers were then despatched to escort it. They flew past, doubled back, found it, had reasonable endurance to stay on site while whatever was wrong with it was overcome or "worked around", and then when that was completed, they left and the diamond went on its way. Is there any other likely reason?

Thanks

[Ninthace]

I will leave a Harrier pilot to comment on your land/hover theory but I think it unlikely. You have also compounded the issue by throwing a USMC Harrier into the mix. Where would that have come from? Why would they want to land or hover - what could two Harrier pilots do? As to the idea it was what was to hand - an RAF Harrier and a US Harrier? Does that sound plausible? Where were Harriers from 2 nations operating together in 1990? Solve that and you may get closer to an answer.

The other issue you need to address is why a late August Saturday afternoon? Trials are normally conducted weekdays unless it wasn't "one of ours". If it wasn't ours, surely it would be a QRA job, not a Harrier, especially as there is no evidence that any Harriers were airborne anywhere in the UK that day.

If you cannot account for the only two credible objects, the story starts to fall apart.

[Mogwi]

A Harrier would have to be at a low fuel weight to be able to hover - and then still have to recover to whatever base it was flying from. Vertical landing on anything other than a prepared (concrete or PSA planking) surface would result in a trip home on a Queen Mary with a knackered donk.

Neither idea is a starter.

Mog

[unmanned_droid]

On the one hand, much of this event is implausible in the extreme. On the other hand, I have on my desk a copy of 'Greenglow' by Ronald Evans that I sometimes pick up for a read wondering whether its an elaborate joke or if there's something in it.

[MPN11]

A fascinating Thread that surely deserves the Nessie Award for 2022?

As a complete outsider, it seems riddled in holes and conspiracy theories.

However, I shall continue to read in a state of suspended reality.

[Matthew Illsley]

I will leave a Harrier pilot to comment on your land/hover theory but I think it unlikely. You have also compounded the issue by throwing a USMC Harrier into the mix. Where would that have come from? Why would they want to land or hover - what could two Harrier pilots do? As to the idea it was what was to hand - an RAF Harrier and a US Harrier? Does that sound plausible? Where were Harriers from 2 nations operating together in 1990? Solve that and you may get closer to an answer.

Hello.

Believe you me, I would be the first to admit there are many holes in all this, and what's left is itself contradictory! With the physical evidence destroyed or missing, we're really seeking personal testimonies from involved parties.

I have admittedly never flown anything, so I am more than happy to accept Mogwi's point re: Harriers not being able to land on anything other than a man-made surface. Thanks for that.

In fairness, I am only repeating, to the extent I'm able, what we've been told by a very senior former military source who volunteered the information to us unprompted. Admittedly, he could be deliberately misleading us. He could even be unintentionally misleading us (telling us what he thinks is true but he has himself been misled). Once one starts to go down that route, though, one seems to lose sense of what's up and what's down, so when people who we don't yet have reason to doubt tell us something, we have tried to treat them as if they were straight shooters.

Where were Harriers from 2 nations operating together in 1990? [I would be extremely grateful for an answer to this question if anyone knows. Or even if anyone knows where just US Harriers were in Scotland in 1990, other than Machrihanish.

The other issue you need to address is why a late August Saturday afternoon? Trials are normally conducted weekdays unless it wasn't "one of ours". If it wasn't ours, surely it would be a QRA job, not a Harrier, especially as there is no evidence that any Harriers were airborne anywhere in the UK that day.

I'm not trying to split hairs, but according to the file, it was closer to 9pm. Again, though, we don't (yet) know. We don't know if it was a trial per se or whether it was some kind of semi-abort during a pre-Gulf War mission. If it was American, as suggested to us, we assume it would have been a fully functional craft on its way to a target or destination. A source has indicated that the diamond was on its way to the Gulf, but that's yet another as yet uncorroborated (if potentially logical) piece of the puzzle.

We also understood QRA to be a matter of pilots being on duty at immediate readiness for foreign incursions, such as when the Russians muck about off the top of Scotland. I would be happy to stand corrected on this, but if a US craft suddenly needed assistance and sought to enter UK airspace, (a) how difficult would it be and/or (b) how quickly could it be done, for those in the know to call up RAF ATC and say, "If you see a blip or 3 near Calvine, just ignore them, OK? Don't launch QRA."

Fleetingly, we toyed with the idea of the AV-8B having been from a ship such as an amphibious assault ship, but we couldn't locate a suitable candidate in Atlantic waters in August 1990. [Again, we're happy to be told otherwise.] There was a NATO training exercise in the North Sea and Norway in September 1990 (TEAMWORK 90), so we had wondered if the plane had been on a ship that had come over early, but so far we don't have any evidence for that theory.

Thanks

[Ninthace]

The occupation of Kuwait did not begin until 2 Aug 90. Is it remotely plausible that an extremely classified US asset would risk exposure just 2 days later? The West had have plenty of ways of gathering intelligence via the usual methods. The Gulf War had not even been thought of.

Exercise TEAMWORK 90 did not take place until 6-23 September 1990. The only carrier involvement I can find is HMS Ark Royal. A USN carrier would not pitch up in early August for something not starting for another month. The landing forces were marines from the UK and the Netherlands, no mention of USMC that I can find.

[Timelord]

I don’t really understand how the senior military source gets one RAF and one USMC Harrier from the photo. As I said earlier,my initial impression was of a Hunter, and no sign of a second aircraft. If JARIC, or whoever could identify the nationalities of the aircraft they must have seen a MUCH better picture than I did. OR they have another source of information.

[Lima Juliet]

How about a development of the MBB Lampyridae? That was in development in the 1980s. Looks spookily like the craft described:

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1760x797/abff6dc0_97c6_4d6e_a3f8_6f4f2978e71d_530fdf5576446cd1e9b9465 1151ec5840bd137d2.jpeg

Here is a YouTube video about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQGdozOrQEo

Also, some more details here: http://www.rp-one.net/lampyridae/lampy.html

[Ninthace]

It can't hover and only a 12m long piloted model was produced and would not have been flying over Scotland at the weekend.
A better contender (it we ignore the ability to hover and no sound aspect) would be an F-117

[Matthew Illsley]

I don’t really understand how the senior military source gets one RAF and one USMC Harrier from the photo. As I said earlier,my initial impression was of a Hunter, and no sign of a second aircraft. If JARIC, or whoever could identify the nationalities of the aircraft they must have seen a MUCH better picture than I did. OR they have another source of information.

According to the senior source's version of events, the source got the RAF and USMC information from the 6 prints originally taken by MoD from the negatives and, later, from the Americans themselves.

We have 5 separate witnesses who claim to have seen the photos in the 1990s, and none of them say the diamond was the F-117.

[MPN11]

The “Senior source” quote worries me a bit. What does the OP regard as as such? Wing Commander, Air rank?

I appreciate the higher up the chain the greater risk of identifying an individual, but in some circles a wg cdr was seen as “senior”.

[Ninthace]

The “Senior source” quote worries me a bit. What does the OP regard as as such? Wing Commander, Air rank?

I appreciate the higher up the chain the greater risk of identifying an individual, but in some circles a wg cdr was seen as “senior”.
Technically anything from Sqn Ldr and above but competence is far more important than seniority.

[Milarity]

From post 86:
"(b) how quickly could it be done, for those in the know to call up RAF ATC and say, "If you see a blip or 3 near Calvine, just ignore them, OK? Don't launch QRA."
Theoretically, very easy to achieve. QRA required the duty officer to authorize launch. If that officer was prebriefed on planned unusual flying activity, they would be able to tie reports of something unusual that would ordinarily require investigation with the prebriefed activity, and hold any launch. Of course, the surveillance officers that had reported the unusual activity would have to be told that said activity was nothing to worry about.. Always a give away that something classified was happening. My personal favourite explanation from the duty controller was that the Mach 2 track at 40k was a harrier on an engine test. Funnily enough, same part of the world and similar timeframe to this incident.

[Matthew Illsley]

233 OCU started flying the Harrier GR5 at Wittering in 1988. 1(F) Sqn shortly after in 1989. The Strike Attack OEU IN 1987 from RAF Boscombe Down. Pretty likely that Harrier GR5 was flying in and around West Freugh as they were struggling with the GR5’s weapon systems and hard points around this time. It was the main reason why it didn’t go to Op GRANBY for 1990/91.

Of course, West Freugh has its very own UFO incident from 1957: https://ekladata.com/6OxHJh2L0whv-4ISC0dukL5UOc8/westfreugh.pdf

Hello. If anyone is interested in looking into this for themselves, and they live near or visit Kew, I believe TNA have some undigitised files on it: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1225338

This link is for the page below (but larger), and it is from the above TNA file, I believe: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_RDphvXIAcazss?format=jpg&name=large

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x1593/e_rdphvxiacazss_5b33540dc5f2995524a96e827c442a8e70abd7fd.jpg

[Matthew Illsley]

From post 86:
"(b) how quickly could it be done, for those in the know to call up RAF ATC and say, "If you see a blip or 3 near Calvine, just ignore them, OK? Don't launch QRA."
Theoretically, very easy to achieve. QRA required the duty officer to authorize launch. If that officer was prebriefed on planned unusual flying activity, they would be able to tie reports of something unusual that would ordinarily require investigation with the prebriefed activity, and hold any launch. Of course, the surveillance officers that had reported the unusual activity would have to be told that said activity was nothing to worry about.. Always a give away that something classified was happening. My personal favourite explanation from the duty controller was that the Mach 2 track at 40k was a harrier on an engine test. Funnily enough, same part of the world and similar timeframe to this incident.

Thanks very much for this.

My personal favourite explanation from the duty controller was that the Mach 2 track at 40k was a harrier on an engine test. Funnily enough, same part of the world and similar timeframe to this incident.

Was this something you were personally involved in? If you have specifics on this incident, would you let me have them either by PPRuNe message or email, please? Thank you.

[dead_pan]

My personal favourite explanation from the duty controller was that the Mach 2 track at 40k was a harrier on an engine test.

Sharky says its true and will fight anyone who says otherwise!

[Matthew Illsley]

Technically anything from Sqn Ldr and above but competence is far more important than seniority.

Re: MPN11 and Ninthace. Being careful of my wording, we have several sources who were, they claim, directly involved in this matter (and from what they've said which tallies with what others have said, we believe they were involved). Of the 2 main ones, one is older, was more involved, and of a higher rank than the other, hence "senior". Neither wishes to be publicly identified, though.

[Beamr]

Was this something you were personally involved in? If you have specifics on this incident, would you let me have them either by PPRuNe message or email, please? Thank you.

I have no knowledge of this specific event, but in case of explaining a mach 2 target at 40k with a Harrier I'd google SR-71. Though it would be a bit slow and a tad low for the Blackbird :}

[MPN11]

Re: MPN11 and Ninthace. Being careful of my wording, we have several sources who were, they claim, directly involved in this matter (and from what they've said which tallies with what others have said, we believe they were involved). Of the 2 main ones, one is older, was more involved, and of a higher rank than the other, hence "senior". Neither wishes to be publicly identified, though.
Thank you. I fully understand the need for PERSEC, and will of course press this no further.

[ShyTorque]

About forty years ago I was told a tale by a military radar controller about “fast movers”. He was told to anticipate one and to disregard it. He was very much used to seeing high speed military aircraft pass across his radar screen and therefore wasn’t too surprised by the message.

However, in this case, he WAS surprised to see how fast the object in question passed across his screen. It appeared as just three “blips”, then was gone. He’d never seen anything moving anywhere near as fast as that before. But it was obviously known to the hierarchy.

[Matthew Illsley]

Hello.

Some new info has come to light that might be of interest/use.

As we know, the MoD has always denied having Harriers in Scotland at the time/day when the Calvine photo was allegedly taken. They might well be telling the truth, or they might be being a little pedantic due to official secrecy and the nature of parliamentary answers, e.g.

Q: "Can the Minister please say whether the RAF had Harriers near Calvine at 9pm on 4th August 1990?"
A: "No, we didn't." (Unsaid: We had Harriers near Calvine at 8.55pm, but you didn't ask that.)

Anyway, according to Hansard, between 30th July and 3rd August 1990 (the day before the Calvine sighting allegedly occurred), the low-flying exercise Mallet Blow 90/2 was undertaken in northern England and the Borders region of Scotland (which doesn't include Calvine, but it's reasonably close).
In the 18 Mallet Blow exercises from Mallet Blow 84/1 to Mallet Blow 89/2, Harriers were involved in every instance.
In Mallet Blow 89/2, a total of 193 Tornadoes, Jaguars, Harriers, F-111s, F-16s, and F-18s took part, so it was quite large.
And in Mallet Blow 90/1, aircraft flew from the following bases:

RAF Brize Norton
RAF Coltishall
RAF Coningsby
RAF Cottesmore
RAF Honington
RAF Leeming
RAF Leuchars
RAF Linton-on-Ouse
RAF Marham
RAF Waddington
RAF Wattisham
RAF Wittering
A & AEE Boscombe Down
RAF Alconbury
RAF Bentwaters
RAF Lakenheath
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Bruggen
RAF Laarbruch
331W
RAF Gutersloh
GAF Büchel
GAF Bremgarten
GAF Leck
GAF Norvenich
NAEWF Geilenkirchen

A few thoughts/queries:

Q1. Do any old hands hence recall Mallet Blow 90/2 and the involvement of any Harriers, please?
Q2. During Mallet Blow exercises up to 90/2, night flying wasn't apparently permitted (11pm to 7am), and scheduled flying seemed to end 30 minutes after sunset. (Sunset on 4.8.1990 in Calvine was at 21:22, so in practical terms, was there enough time for a Harrier or two to be in the air at 9pm over Calvine and fly back to a nearby base by 21:52?)
Q3. If Mallet Blow 90/2 ended on Friday 3rd August 1990, might there have been any reason for a Harrier or two to just stay over in southern Scotland or northern England (at a base other than their home squadron base), and hence be in the air on Saturday 4th August?
Q4. Were exercises like Mallet Blow ever extended for 24 hours or into a weekend for any reason (bad weather, logistics, more practice requested)?

Thank you.

[Timelord]

This is a bit embarrassing, and will be a gift to our RN friends but it is hard to overstate how unusual fast jet weekend flying was then!
( Nimrods, yes, yes I know)

I’m sure that Harriers took part in that Mallet Blow.
I very much doubt that it was extended into a weekend.
Mallet Blow areas did not extend as far North as Calvine but a Harrier COULD have detached to Calvine but would have had to land at Leuchars / Lossiemouth thereby attracting attention.

In short, I don’t think this avenue of inquiry will help much.

[Matthew Illsley]

Much appreciated, Timelord. Cheers

[SpeedFanatic]

About forty years ago I was told a tale by a military radar controller about “fast movers”. He was told to anticipate one and to disregard it. He was very much used to seeing high speed military aircraft pass across his radar screen and therefore wasn’t too surprised by the message.

However, in this case, he WAS surprised to see how fast the object in question passed across his screen. It appeared as just three “blips”, then was gone. He’d never seen anything moving anywhere near as fast as that before. But it was obviously known to the hierarchy.


Hi! What parts of the UK the man saw that radar blimps? Was it regular route or unspecified or random one?
forty years gives it back to the 80's... was it just happening at the time or later as well?

[SpeedFanatic]

Hi Matthew,

I did send you a private message on here, check this out, please.

[El Grifo]

Matthew, I used to shoot Mallet Blow for RAF Strilke Command, High Wycombe for years.
I have no photographic records of what aircraft were involved sadly.
They gave me 12 numbered rolls of B/W on arrival and I had to return 12 rolls at the end of each day.
Flying normally finished prior to sundown.
I never shot anything at weekends or was ever asked too.
I have no memory of any Harriers,which are very distinctive, but it was a long time ago.

Sorry !

El Grifo

[Matthew Illsley]

Hi Matthew,

I did send you a private message on here, check this out, please.

Matthew, I used to shoot Mallet Blow for RAF Strilke Command, High Wycombe for years.
I have no photographic records of what aircraft were involved sadly.
They gave me 12 numbered rolls of B/W on arrival and I had to return 12 rolls at the end of each day.
Flying normally finished prior to sundown.
I never shot anything at weekends or was ever asked too.
I have no memory of any Harriers,which are very distinctive, but it was a long time ago.

Sorry !

El Grifo

Thanks, gents. All info is very much appreciated.

[Ninthace]

Were not RAF Harriers eliminated from the the investigation by Ufologists following examination of the relevant ORBs at Kew?
https://www.uapmedia.uk/articles/calvineupdate

[ShyTorque]

Hi! What parts of the UK the man saw that radar blimps? Was it regular route or unspecified or random one?
forty years gives it back to the 80's... was it just happening at the time or later as well?

It was "blips", not blimps. ;)

I assumed it occurred in W.Germany, at least that is where the controller told the story. It would have been somewhere between early 1981 to late 1983. I don't have any more detail because I didn't ask for any and in those days most things military were on a "need to know" basis.

But it does make me realise that certain unusual, very high performance aerial objects that might be otherwise described as "UFOs" were actually known about, at least by part of the military.

[Matthew Illsley]

Were not RAF Harriers eliminated from the the investigation by Ufologists following examination of the relevant ORBs at Kew?
https://www.uapmedia.uk/articles/calvineupdate

Hi Ninthace. To my (admittedly imperfect) knowledge, the ORBs of Sqns 1, 3 and 4 don't show anything, nor do the Sea Harrier ORBs, but SAOEU is as yet unaccounted for.

Re: 233 OCU, due to the invasion of Kuwait, the ORBs mention many aircraft movements to and from OCU for Operation Granby prep, with Wittering mentioned. No smoking gun, though, date-wise as yet.

[Ninthace]

Hi Ninthace. To my (admittedly imperfect) knowledge, the ORBs of Sqns 1, 3 and 4 don't show anything, nor do the Sea Harrier ORBs, but SAOEU is as yet unaccounted for.

Re: 233 OCU, due to the invasion of Kuwait, the ORBs mention many aircraft movements to and from OCU for Operation Granby prep, with Wittering mentioned. No smoking gun, though, date-wise as yet.
Iraq did not invade Kuwait until 2 Aug 90, Granby was a long way off. I would not even bother to pursue that idea

[chevvron]

I have no knowledge of this specific event, but in case of explaining a mach 2 target at 40k with a Harrier I'd google SR-71. Though it would be a bit slow and a tad low for the Blackbird :}
One of the military controllers at Northern Radar pointed out an SR71 to me one day in 1973. It would travel at 'normal' speed ie about 500kt then stop, then repeat. This was because they would climb vertically several times on departure and the blip stopping meant one of these vertical climbs (raw radar not MTI equipped.)
The same controller (same year) also pointed out a Phantom which was positioning to Leuchars fromm Coningsby. It headed up the Wash then turned north and the blips suddenly got wider and wider spaced as it went supersonic. I was told later they did brakes off to touchdown in 7 minutes.
Years later at Farnborough (late '90s) I often watched aircraft indicating FL660 appear from somewhere off the south coast heading just east of north and crossing high over Heathrow; I presume these were U2s.

[Ninthace]

It was "blips", not blimps. ;)

I assumed it occurred in W.Germany, at least that is where the controller told the story. It would have been somewhere between early 1981 to late 1983. I don't have any more detail because I didn't ask for any and in those days most things military were on a "need to know" basis.

But it does make me realise that certain unusual, very high performance aerial objects that might be otherwise described as "UFOs" were actually known about, at least by part of the military.

Of course the "high performance", high speed object could just be space debris or items being recovered from orbit which happened from 71-86

[SpeedFanatic]

Years later at Farnborough (late '90s) I often watched aircraft indicating FL660 appear from somewhere off the south coast heading just east of north and crossing high over Heathrow; I presume these were U2s.

What speed they were? Was it routine events?

[SpeedFanatic]

It was "blips", not blimps. ;)

I assumed it occurred in W.Germany, at least that is where the controller told the story. It would have been somewhere between early 1981 to late 1983. I don't have any more detail because I didn't ask for any and in those days most things military were on a "need to know" basis.

But it does make me realise that certain unusual, very high performance aerial objects that might be otherwise described as "UFOs" were actually known about, at least by part of the military.

Can we rule out possibility of it being just the SR-71?

[ShyTorque]

Can we rule out possibility of it being just the SR-71?

How would we do that?

[SpeedFanatic]

How would we do that?

By a speed on the radar... I guess the only possibility.

[NickB]

Sorry, late to the party here, but if the aircraft was a Hunter, nobody has mentioned FRADU Hunters from Yeovilton (that I’ve seen in this thread). I’ve definitely seen these fly at weekends during exercises. Probably not important, but just thought I’d throw it into the mix!

[ShyTorque]

By a speed on the radar….After 40 years? :confused:

[SpeedFanatic]

After 40 years? :confused:

Nah... I thought the person excluded it being the SR-71 and thus I asked whether that was the thing as similar conversation may took place but gauging by your response, it didn't ;)

[Timelord]

Sorry, late to the party here, but if the aircraft was a Hunter, nobody has mentioned FRADU Hunters from Yeovilton (that I’ve seen in this thread). I’ve definitely seen these fly at weekends during exercises. Probably not important, but just thought I’d throw it into the mix!

Good point. Were they still operating Hunters then? FRADU and their successors did indeed fly at weekends during JMC exercises, and sometimes out of Lossiemouth but almost exclusively over the sea.

[chevvron]

Sorry, late to the party here, but if the aircraft was a Hunter, nobody has mentioned FRADU Hunters from Yeovilton (that I’ve seen in this thread). I’ve definitely seen these fly at weekends during exercises. Probably not important, but just thought I’d throw it into the mix!
Gawd that dates me; when I first started training at the College of ATC at Hurn, FRADU were still flying Scimitars!!

[NickB]

Good point. Were they still operating Hunters then? FRADU and their successors did indeed fly at weekends during JMC exercises, and sometimes out of Lossiemouth but almost exclusively over the sea.

Indeed they were, right up to 1995.

Wish I could have seen those Scimitars flying - I know they weren't that successful, but what an aircraft...

[Mogwi]

Indeed they were, right up to 1995.

Wish I could have seen those Scimitars flying - I know they weren't that successful, but what an aircraft...


Our American cousins were apparently amazed that we could produce a twin-engined fighter and keep it sub-sonic!

Mog

[Ninthace]

Good point. Were they still operating Hunters then? FRADU and their successors did indeed fly at weekends during JMC exercises, and sometimes out of Lossiemouth but almost exclusively over the sea.
Has it not been established by "senior RAF" people the ac in question are Harriers? Sure looks like on in the picture.

[Timelord]

Ninthace, the mocked up picture on this thread is a Harrier but as I said earlier my first impression on seeing the original was Hunter. You are correct though, Mathew has stated that RAF analysis of the original did apparently say Harrier.

[NickB]

Our American cousins were apparently amazed that we could produce a twin-engined fighter and keep it sub-sonic!

Mog

I think it was something to do with the thickness of the wing cord? You'll probably know more about that than me, but that aside, they were dangerous times flying FJs from a carrier in the 60s...not sure the losses would be acceptable today...

[SpeedFanatic]

Hi,

I'm aviation enthusiast especially in the military matter. I'm really curious about SAP's and special access programs of the past as well as current ones.

Through many years I was able to collect many sighting reports which are pretty interesting to me as they give some light on the subject.

Mentioned below is a thread authored by some other poster a few years back and I'm re-approaching it again.

In the beginning of 2011, a group of aviation enthusiast from England(and possibly from other places too) came with interesting topic on MilitaryPhotos forum. There was a specific member "2495" that led all the discussion. Howewer, soon afterwards he disappeared from the scene. Group from England had one aim - to disocver the fastmover that roves through UK airspace by the decades. They've spent over 14 years on watching and making conclusions and finally they decided to show results of their work.

Their thread called "Hunting the Fast Movers" included photos of supposed fastmover(s) that were roaring through the UK airspace. The file included 6 pics. Unfortunatelly, OP post was deleted later.

Here is original "2495" post that I've found using Internet archive.

--- --- --- --- ---

First a point I'd like to make – very important point actually. At no time has any serving member of the UK (or any other nations) Armed Forces spoken to, engaged in, or in any way assisted us on our project. It has been done exclusively by civilians who have acted within the laws of the United Kingdom at all times – this includes remaining on public land / waters for all excursions. (Please note also that the photos clearly are not the originals nor high resolution and the hi res will never become available either. Reason being that this wasn't an exercise based in malice / monetary gain in any way shape or form).

The second point I'd like to draw to peoples attention is that for many decades it has been proven beyond all doubt that the CIA, NSA, NRO and all other agencies protect their SAP (Special Access Projects) behind a wall of obfuscation and deceit, and since the 'U-2' and A-12 (later to become SR-71) they have used the field of ufology as an effective counter intelligence firewall. The murkier the better as far as these agencies are concerned, and for us it is a validation of the fact that this area is a very valid research tool if you are selective about the materials you gather.

It was after years (literal years) of sifting, sieving, discarding, interviewing and traveling to follow the most promising leads we got a focus target area. This was the 'Black Triangles' mystery – and what a can of worms. There is enough material in that alone to chase a potential 8 in test / operational vehicles of varying forms / uses. However the work served a purpose and funneled us downwards to the core of what we wanted to investigate. I am sure many are familiar with the topic.

What appeared after a time was a very resounding pattern.

Cornwall – Mysterious sonic booms shaking windows and high altitude lights heading towards Wales.

Wales – high altitude black triangles rushing over head with a single strobing red light light on the underside. North Wales sightings were of particular clarity.

Scotland. The cluster of sightings and audio reports from here was astounding in detail, witness integrity and sheer numbers. Reports ranged from 'Space shuttles with snubbed noses' , 'Massive 'S' shaped curves being carved in the skies', night time 'express trains' roaring through the air and the sudden rash of 'Low level Tornado flights deep in the night along side a deeper more rumbling engine sound heading East'. Girvan, Stranraer, they all started to trickle in reports. Oh one snippet from a report of interest from 2008 - “If a C-17 goes low westward in the day time over Girvan wheels down, its an absolute100% caste iron guarantee of a night time rumbling roaring sound”. We are not sure why this is so urgent unless its bringing in fuel / fresh crews or other needed items for the mission but it actually did assist us some what.

Pattern became clear enough – It comes in high, very high over Cornwall, gets lower over wales and hits Scotland at altitudes low enough to be visible. We decided we should start to organize a hill walking holiday.

Then the tragic events of 9-11 in New York and the Global War On Terror. Fast Black triangles and air quakes didn't just hit the UK any longer – they moved down the eastern coast of the UK and started to creep across Europe, into eastern Europe and aimed right at the middle east.

Eye witnesses from the North Sea into Europe once again reported an extreme fast ' black arrow head with a single red light' and the characteristic shaking windows. Further into Europe it again became a single extreme speed pulsing red light and no noise. Climbs to altitude and races off is our boys signature and we knew it had in all probability gone from test article / dust off research craft to fully pressed into use – but we had no concrete sightings in the ME or Afghanistan.

Then pay dirt dropped into our laps.
First the grape vine started to rumble with rumors of a very unusual airframe making sporadic stops in Afghanistan.

What ever this was it came in with zero engine noise onto a blacked out runway – just a rush of air and thumping heavy landing. On take off it sounded like a 'B-1b with an attitude problem' – again though when it lifted off it was on an all blacked out runway.

Then a Civilian in Afghanistan was taking photos of the stars in long exposure, and there it was – the single fading in and out red light crossing the skies. Taking the exposure length we knew it then.

If it was a test article, it was now operational and we knew for certain why the black triangle low level sightings had it as silent; it is, but only when landing approach is being made.

Hope you like the montage. Yes the engines are mounted above the wings, yes the hull is a flattened shallow 'V', and it indeed has a single tail not a pair unlike the SR-71. (The pictures are free to share / use but please remember they are low res for a very valid reason – the underside thermal protection system and hull shape is unique and we agreed that for the time being is should stay under wraps. We were not looking to damage any assets, just to find them).

The picture on the top left shows the shovel nose to perfection and the top right is one of the rarer out at sea 'Space shuttle like' 's' curves and airframe re-entry like flight profile. These really were baffling and the last reported sighting was yesterday evening (28th Feb. 2011).#1

Is it loud? Ungodly bastards yes it is. Is it fast? Jaw dropping acceleration into the night sky. Does it land in silence? Yes it does.

I saved the best till last.

It might have two of the biggest loudest jet engines I have ever heard that fling it skywards, but theres a third engine on board – the ear splitting roar? Its a rocket engine. Yes you read that right – the airframe climbs into the dark sky and away, then a sudden 'pop – rolling boom followed by a deep bass rumbling' and the bright exhaust signature Sprints into the night.

If you do hunt it, take a stop watch. The numbers are beautiful.

Thats all folks – a twin seat manned high speed aircraft getting lots of use – airframe numbers are low, 6 at the very most from sighting frequency / locations but they getting lots of air time. If you think all this is pie in the skies?


Beside it, there are other reports, too. I'll quote some that are publicly available on the net:

" After reading all the reports I can add to this, in august 2003 over lowestoft I was watching some f15s dogfighting early evening and a second and third flight coming over later in the evening. Just after 11:00 there was a tanker and another large jet which I could not tell what it was, only 2 engines, come in over the coast and an hour later another tanker and with it was 2 f15s trailling on either side. There was a jet just trailling the tanker slightly in front on the f15s with no nav lights, strange shape to it, a distinctive sound which was hard to tell giving the number of jets up there. Shortly after a C5 came over all on the same flight path. It was a very clear night no moon. I travelled up to the hall and the heath the next day and there was a C5 at hall parked with its tail towards the sheds where the ospreys are based. I was talking to a gentleman at the fence and he made some comments that it was a strange night at lakenheath and that the C5 had been in there and then came over to the hall. Also that lakenheath had some strange activity the night before.. I went up the next night and a few spotters where there but no planes!"

"Early 2000's.A good friend of mine Bill was staying on his boat south of Norwich.About 10pm he was watching F15's perform through his binoculars against a starry sky.A couple of tankers headed home as well.A bit later on hearing more F15's he saw two heading inland with a large, almost tanker sized plane behind them, no lights on it but clearly a triangular shape against the sky."

If anyone therefore has any relevant information on this matter, I would be very grateful to hear from you.

If anyone has similar sightings and would like to share them feel free to do so and/or just PM me.

Thank you.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/534x395/attachment_1_40e84b8d59fb894d2223efc2e3b846a82c468a54.jpg

[SnowFella]

Don't have any relevant information about it but way back then I was a member at MP.net and remember the thread well. The bit you have posted above would of been the original posting that later was lost when the forum had a fatal meltdown and the backups didn't work.
The thread was restarted once the forum came back online, before going totally dead after the forum owner was forced to shut due to repeat copyright infringements being tossed at him. I do have the last few months of posts saved as .pdf files but don't think they contain anything of any importance other than the moment 2495 went MIA.

[Haraka]

Looks like a mash up including some shots of a possible D 21 ( or representation thereof) in post 129... :)

[Lima Juliet]

Looks like X-43A

BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Jet speed record attempt delayed (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4007267.stm)


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/416x258/image_af07281edfe5e60fdbc48dab58e65d315e12dcac.gif

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/564x415/image_2dcda3c7e4e74307063cf32d74cdb4661a239e87.jpeg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KpFjyTWVuo

[SpeedFanatic]

Don't have any relevant information about it but way back then I was a member at MP.net and remember the thread well. The bit you have posted above would of been the original posting that later was lost when the forum had a fatal meltdown and the backups didn't work.
The thread was restarted once the forum came back online, before going totally dead after the forum owner was forced to shut due to repeat copyright infringements being tossed at him. I do have the last few months of posts saved as .pdf files but don't think they contain anything of any importance other than the moment 2495 went MIA.

I was able to brought back the original thread by Wayback Machine and there was one member who saved it all as a PDF file with dates and any other information. The File also included the final post left by 2495 where he stated he would come back in September same year but actually it never happened. Is it the PDF file you are referring to?

[SnowFella]

I was able to brought back the original thread by Wayback Machine and there was one member who saved it all as a PDF file with dates and any other information. The File also included the final post left by 2495 where he stated he would come back in September same year but actually it never happened. Is it the PDF file you are referring to?
Yep, that's likely the same file. I got access to them, it's 4 files in all, just a month or so ago through an MP.net facebook group.

[NorthSouth]

Apologies for coming to this fascinating thread late and for any answers that I may have missed, but (given that the photo in post #19 is clearly a Harrier), could it/they have been Jaguars? The estimable British Aviation Review tells me that on 4th August 1990 2 x Jaguar GR1As visited Newcastle, callsigns Wildcat 1&2. I believe Wildcat was a 226 OCU callsign at the time, which would mean they were likely to have come from Lossiemouth, and Calvine is certainly in the frame for a route from Lossie to Newcastle, especially at low level.
At another level, as a regular traveller on the A9 at that time, frequently at weekends, I cannot believe that the scenario was not witnessed and reported by many other people. Even just the presence of a couple of Harriers/Jaguars/whatever at low level on a Saturday night would be bound to lead to some complaints. So my suspicion is this is all boilleaux. But perhaps there are some ex-226 OCU folks out there who may have some memories of a rare weekend trip to Newcastle?
NS

[Matthew Illsley]

Apologies for coming to this fascinating thread late and for any answers that I may have missed, but (given that the photo in post #19 is clearly a Harrier), could it/they have been Jaguars? The estimable British Aviation Review tells me that on 4th August 1990 2 x Jaguar GR1As visited Newcastle, callsigns Wildcat 1&2. I believe Wildcat was a 226 OCU callsign at the time, which would mean they were likely to have come from Lossiemouth, and Calvine is certainly in the frame for a route from Lossie to Newcastle, especially at low level.
At another level, as a regular traveller on the A9 at that time, frequently at weekends, I cannot believe that the scenario was not witnessed and reported by many other people. Even just the presence of a couple of Harriers/Jaguars/whatever at low level on a Saturday night would be bound to lead to some complaints. So my suspicion is this is all boilleaux. But perhaps there are some ex-226 OCU folks out there who may have some memories of a rare weekend trip to Newcastle?
NS

Thanks for replying, NorthSouth.

The image in #19 is actually a mock-up created, we understand, by Nick Pope and a Channel 5 computer artist. It reflects Mr Pope's best recollections abut the "real" photos that he saw of the alleged Calvine diamond and its chase aircraft while he was working in Sec(AS)2a.

Is there an online source for the British Aviation Review about the 2 x Jaguar GR1As on 4th August 1990, or, if it's from a magazine, would you be able to post/email a photo at all, please?

Thank you.

[Haraka]

"Mr Pope's best recollections abut the "real" photos that he saw of the alleged Calvine diamond and its chase aircraft while he was working in Sec(AS)2a."
Well that says it all
:)

[NorthSouth]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1449/img_20220317_124221_c4272a8d22e947ee69f79a242bae7f9d422313da .jpg
Photo of the relevant page. Looking at it now I'm not sure where I got the info on the callsigns but you'll see from the right hand page that they were both deployed to take part in the River Wear Festival Air Day the following day.

[Timelord]

I was shown the “real” photo. Certain it wasn’t a Jaguar.

[Doctor Cruces]

From post 86:
"(b) how quickly could it be done, for those in the know to call up RAF ATC and say, "If you see a blip or 3 near Calvine, just ignore them, OK? Don't launch QRA."
Theoretically, very easy to achieve. QRA required the duty officer to authorize launch. If that officer was prebriefed on planned unusual flying activity, they would be able to tie reports of something unusual that would ordinarily require investigation with the prebriefed activity, and hold any launch. Of course, the surveillance officers that had reported the unusual activity would have to be told that said activity was nothing to worry about.. Always a give away that something classified was happening. My personal favourite explanation from the duty controller was that the Mach 2 track at 40k was a harrier on an engine test. Funnily enough, same part of the world and similar timeframe to this incident.
M2.0 Harrier? Really?

[Matthew Illsley]

Hi All,

Does any of the following ring true to anyone, please, or does it sound like something from the brothers Grimm?

Further to everything that's been said, it's recently been suggested that the craft at Calvine was the same as one seen over Belgium in the "flap" that occurred from roughly 1989 to 1991. Calvine was August 1990.

Here's a couple of example reports:

https://ufologie.patrickgross.org/be/1dec1989eupen.htm
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8M-ls_qP98M

The suggestion is that the craft was an unmanned surveillance platform (high speed, stealthy, prolonged ability to linger over a target) which was designed to map targets using "lasers" or something similar. It was being secretly tested both over Scotland and Belgium in preparation for going into hostile territory.

Please note: I am emphatically not saying any of this is accurate. All the above has been suggested by a former military source, so I am just soliciting opinions from those who have more professional insight into these sorts of things.

As but one point, the Belgian vehicle(s) allegedly shone beams of red light at a lake, a building, and the ground, but would visible red light even be used in aerial mapping scans by craft trying to avoid detection? We are doubtful, as you might be able to tell, but I wanted to offer it up as it's something we've been told.

Thank you.

[chopper2004]

Good luck, Matthew. It sounds like an interesting story.

Based on my one visit to Macrihanish as supernumerary crew on a Lyneham C-130, you should probably talk to the Campbeltown fish merchants. When I was there, there were several transport aircraft of various sizes, picking up orders of fish, during their "practice diversions". ;)

While waiting for our fish to arrive, the captain kept one engine running, rather than trust the APU, because he wasn't supposed to be there!

Laughingly I dug up my copy of Stealth Fighter Pilot (D M Giangreco Motorbooks 1993) and Macrihanish is mentioned as secure FOb in Europe for the 117.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x2000/f1efacb7_8734_4b4f_a081_fa7ac7dd688c_b978bf661b92d04014593ee b16446c7167cecf00.jpeg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x960/562fd9a9_5cf9_4e2c_8852_3c08ef85d49e_47305c8c3aa6480a3f18415 0d198ef9381030113.jpeg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x960/35413928_03ff_4a0b_b7ca_589b4c4bfca8_62f8cbdfda342df0ae26d53 94cc6843d8f9ca1c7.jpeg

Cheers

[Matthew Illsley]

Very enlightening. Thank you very much, Chopper.

[fdr]

That is a fake. It’s a mocked up reproduction of the actual photo.

as a representation it is interesting. The Harrier is of course not an AV8B, unless it has had it's nose pinched in a vice, but poetic license...
The shape is not inspiring as a lifting body, but as noted, could be a really poor rendition of an X-43 type hypersonic lifting body. It also is slightly reminiscent of the lower speed X-45 or X-47. Size-wise, it seems like a B2 size aircraft, and that first flew in 1989. If in a turn at the time, it could give a profile that could look like your seriously, horribly hopeless diamond, to hint back to Ben Rich and the 117. I'd be looking at the B-2 testing program for clues. From the side they are an odd device.

[fdr]

How many conspiracy theories start with these four words?

Talking of which, I recall attending an energy conference in the US a few years back during which an esteemed professor from a prestigious US uni ended his lecture with an entirely serious and non-ironic comment that, "according to Ben Rich", Einstein had got his famous equation all wrong, that it was in fact e=mc^2.5. Cue fits of giggles from us assembled Brits.

Actually, MC^2 is an approximation. Near enough for all of us, but it is not quite correct. Einsteins T-Shirt looks better than a value other than 2.00000000000

[fdr]

How many conspiracy theories start with these four words?

Talking of which, I recall attending an energy conference in the US a few years back during which an esteemed professor from a prestigious US uni ended his lecture with an entirely serious and non-ironic comment that, "according to Ben Rich", Einstein had got his famous equation all wrong, that it was in fact e=mc^2.5. Cue fits of giggles from us assembled Brits.

Actually, MC^2 is an approximation. Near enough for all of us, but it is not quite correct. Einsteins T-Shirt looks better than a value other than 2.00000000000

(E^2=mC^2 + pC^2 is more accurate). The proof of the T-Shirt does work, but it is for a specific condition which is why the additive gets put into the equation for all cases.

or:
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1210x362/screen_shot_2022_04_26_at_12_53_38_am_2ea02054543403f60ca48b 48e773aceda2c56af3.png


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/962x892/screen_shot_2022_04_26_at_12_55_29_am_6c72b8f472b6e1649ac873 ccfa787ff571f35843.png


whether it is close depends...

For E at rest, for a mass it is correct, if the mass is invariant
For a photon it is incomplete
For other cases, it is an approximation

Was a great presentation from Fermi Labs that made the point neatly.

[Matthew Illsley]

Hi All,

We have learned from an RAF source that checks were carried out to identify the Harrier(s) with the Scottish Air Traffic Control Centre (Military) (ScATTC Mil) at Prestwick. We don't know the results, though.

It's a tiny snippet of non-Earth-shattering information, but it might jog someone's memory or prompt someone to reminisce about their time there. Does anyone know anyone who served there in 1990?

An ScATCC pamphlet from 1980 may also be found here: https://atchistory.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/scottish-oceanic-accs.pdf

I'll have more in the next few weeks, but that's all for now.

Cheers.

[Matthew Illsley]

Hi All
It has been claimed that an American "air pad", which I understand to have been a concrete or AM2-matting "expeditionary airfield" was operational at or near Glen Tilt near Calvine in 1990 and was supporting AV8Bs, aka Harriers.

We'd be very grateful to know if that assertion is true. Anyone know?

Thank you

[El Grifo]

Keep at it mate !
Let no one grind you down !

El G.

[Ninthace]

Hi All
It has been claimed that an American "air pad", which I understand to have been a concrete or AM2-matting "expeditionary airfield" was operational at or near Glen Tilt near Calvine in 1990 and was supporting AV8Bs, aka Harriers.

We'd be very grateful to know if that assertion is true. Anyone know?

Thank you
What difference would it make if there was?

[chopper2004]

Slightly digressing, speaking of Harrier or SHAR in Scotland, I was in the and was in the business suite in my digs for Heli Expo 2011 in Orlando,. I got chatting to one of the guests who was from somewhere on the eats coats of USA and he was a former Navy SEAL..who had roots here from Manchester. He said when he was on exercise over here for likes of Joint Warrior or the equivalent in the 1990s and was offered a ride in the back of a T.4N or whatever the two seat SHAR was, off the deck of Invincible, Ark or Lusty. He took up the offer with glee and spoke highly of our RN.

TBH i did not think the two seat trainer would be present at these exercises unless some Flag staff came up to see manuouvers.

Cheers

[chopper2004]

Hi All,

Does any of the following ring true to anyone, please, or does it sound like something from the brothers Grimm?

Further to everything that's been said, it's recently been suggested that the craft at Calvine was the same as one seen over Belgium in the "flap" that occurred from roughly 1989 to 1991. Calvine was August 1990.

Here's a couple of example reports:

https://ufologie.patrickgross.org/be/1dec1989eupen.htm
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8M-ls_qP98M

The suggestion is that the craft was an unmanned surveillance platform (high speed, stealthy, prolonged ability to linger over a target) which was designed to map targets using "lasers" or something similar. It was being secretly tested both over Scotland and Belgium in preparation for going into hostile territory.

Please note: I am emphatically not saying any of this is accurate. All the above has been suggested by a former military source, so I am just soliciting opinions from those who have more professional insight into these sorts of things.

As but one point, the Belgian vehicle(s) allegedly shone beams of red light at a lake, a building, and the ground, but would visible red light even be used in aerial mapping scans by craft trying to avoid detection? We are doubtful, as you might be able to tell, but I wanted to offer it up as it's something we've been told.

Thank you.

Look at the 'Whale' or Tacit Blue

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/41892/new-light-shed-on-the-once-top-secret-tacit-blue-aircraft-by-veteran-program-manager

It was meant to (if the balloon went up) and the hordes of WarPac arnor went over the Three Ladies (any USAREUR folk on here will know what i am on about perfect rolling tank country) then several of these low observable stealthy battlefield radar platforms would fly over, loiter behind enemy lines to act as targeting for the likes of LGB and artillery.. By the time it was finalised testing or what not then cold war comign to an end. J-Stars ended up with that role for which experimental first airframes served combat for first time during Desert Storm.

cheers

[Matthew Illsley]

What difference would it make if there was?

Hi Ninthace,
Thanks for replying.

In answer to your question: "Quite a lot... possibly."

Since 1996, the jet in the photo has widely been suspected to have been a Harrier, but no British Harrier could ever be found in the correct location at the right time. (See: Graeme Rendall's work online.)

The occasional suggestion that it was American (i.e. an AV-8B) was hence often dismissed out of hand by many people because it was a violation of Occam's Razor ("You're making this more complicated than it should be if it's a true story"), it was argued that there weren't supposed to be any in the UK at the time, plus logs from the nearest bases suggested no Harriers were there, and certainly no AV-8Bs.

We were told recently, however, that the craft in the photo WAS indeed an AV-8B. And that in another of the 6 photos, which no one has seen publicly but which is referred to in the loose memo from 1990 in TNA's files, that a second jet on-site was a British Harrier.

Now, a different source has come forward and told us that the Americans had 1 or more portable, temporary airfields in or around Glen Tilt in 1990. If that is so, suddenly, the possibility of someone flying from there to Calvine increases greatly, because it's a stone's throw away, and the encounter need not even have been planned. If there was a problem with the Diamond, for example, the nearest American air asset that could have been ordered to investigate might well have been only moments away. Might the diamond even have secretly come from the temporary base? The area has, after all, been home to secret aircraft trials since at least the early 1900s. If so, another long-standing objection - that the Diamond must have come from a long way away, and, if so, it would have been seen elsewhere along its flight path (but wasn't, ergo this is a hoax) - also perhaps starts to crumble.

Cheers.

[Matthew Illsley]

Look at the 'Whale' or Tacit Blue

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/41892/new-light-shed-on-the-once-top-secret-tacit-blue-aircraft-by-veteran-program-manager

cheers

Thank you very much, Chopper. That was a really eye-opening article. Cheers

[Timelord]

Remember that Harriers taking off vertically was strictly for air shows so some sort of strip would be required (cf “Sid’s strip in the Falklands) . Given that the whole area was thick with low flying aircraft at the time it would have needed some sort of avoid around it to avoid a 420 kt Buccaneer or Jaguar bumping in to a landing or launching Harrier. Such an avoid would be promulgated by Notice to Airmen (yes, yes, I know) or NOTAM. Is there a record somewhere of NOTAMS extant on the relevant dates.?

Plonking a “portable airfield” down in the middle of a very busy low flying area would not be a small undertaking, and would attract a lot of attention from the air and the ground. I never heard of such a thing, and I was doing a lot of low flying around then.

[Mogwi]

Slightly digressing, speaking of Harrier or SHAR in Scotland, I was in the and was in the business suite in my digs for Heli Expo 2011 in Orlando,. I got chatting to one of the guests who was from somewhere on the eats coats of USA and he was a former Navy SEAL..who had roots here from Manchester. He said when he was on exercise over here for likes of Joint Warrior or the equivalent in the 1990s and was offered a ride in the back of a T.4N or whatever the two seat SHAR was, off the deck of Invincible, Ark or Lusty. He took up the offer with glee and spoke highly of our RN.

TBH i did not think the two seat trainer would be present at these exercises unless some Flag staff came up to see manuouvers.

Cheers

BS! T4s did not operate from carriers. There were good physical reasons for this - the refuelling nozzles did not fit. The only time that one was landed onboard, they had to fit an in-flight refuelling probe and fill it through that!

Mog

[Timelord]

And I’m afraid that the idea of operating a Top Secret, highly advanced machine from a muddy field in the highlands is a complete non starter.

[Matthew Illsley]

Remember that Harriers taking off vertically was strictly for air shows so some sort of strip would be required (cf “Sid’s strip in the Falklands) . Given that the whole area was thick with low flying aircraft at the time it would have needed some sort of avoid around it to avoid a 420 kt Buccaneer or Jaguar bumping in to a landing or launching Harrier. Such an avoid would be promulgated by Notice to Airmen (yes, yes, I know) or NOTAM. Is there a record somewhere of NOTAMS extant on the relevant dates.?

Plonking a “portable airfield” down in the middle of a very busy low flying area would not be a small undertaking, and would attract a lot of attention from the air and the ground and I never heard of such a thing, and I was doing a lot of low flying around then.

Thanks, as always, Timelord.

I agree that no one's landing a jet or high-tech craft on a patch of moorland. Please forgive the speculation. I'm just asking the Qs as they occur to me.

"Remember that Harriers taking off vertically was strictly for air shows." So this VTOL feature simply wasn't used under normal circumstances?

Can we read anything into this having allegedly been seen on a weekend, i.e. theoretically, the senior military knows this diamond is going to be brought in as a one-off, so they schedule it for a Saturday as no low flying is occurring? Would there hence be a need for a NOTAM for a top secret craft appearing just the once on a non-permanent airbase?

If (or rather IF) there also was a temporary airfield, though, and IF it had been built on private land, would that have aroused the same kind of interest from military personnel? There's what appears to be a simple turf airstrip at Blair Atholl, for example, not 5 miles from Calvine, that's over 300m/1,000ft long, with hangars, equipment, etc. One might imagine that being overlaid with matting, for example.

How quickly could a temporary runway or airpad be constructed? It looks, from the videos on YT, like a relatively simple task etc, especially if the land itself is already relatively flat.

Elsewhere, for example, https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/san-carlos-fob/ says:

"A little known aspect of the air war over the Falkland Islands in 1982 was the use of an austere Forward Operating Base (FOB) at San Carlos for Harriers and helicopters.
The design of the Harrier was predicated on operating away from large airbases and in austere operating bases that made use of rapidly laid runways, supermarket car parks and roads.
The dispersed operating concept for RAF Harriers was by 1982, both firmly established and well practised. 300m runways and 7 square metre vertical landing pads were the norm for such."

Similarly, there's this video of a Harrier taking off in the normal manner from an improvised airstrip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lykFvqPk_Y4

Plus here are videos of a pad being constructed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-C3bORpQtc, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4pUO3D3ufw.

Thank you.

[Timelord]

I’ll let the Harrier experts comment on most of that but regarding Blair Atholl: There is indeed an airstrip there, and there is (was anyway) a big blue circle around it on everyone’s maps meaning avoid. Any temporary operating surface would need to be similarly protected. If the whole thing was too super secret to put on a NOTAM there would have been a red (Provost Marshal Protected) circle around it without explanation. I can’t remember either but there may be records somewhere.

[Ninthace]

And there you have your problem Matthew. Harriers do not just plonk themselves on and off strips. There is a sizeable support package that goes with them. Vehicles, refuellers, a few 12 by 12s, personnel and so on. Such a deployment does not go unnoticed, especially as you need a road to act as a take off strip. People tend to notice that sort of thing and it would have been commented on. Unless there was an exercise going on, it would be v unlikely. Where would the ac have come from and which sqn would have been operating in support?

[Mogwi]

200m of level grass (Landrover @30kts test) with a CBR (Californian Bearing Ratio) of 2.5 at 6” increasing, will make a decent Harrier strip. Somewhere in a land far away, I pogo-sticked myself across more fields than I care to remember. Still say that this is all a figment though.

Mog

[Ninthace]

200m of level grass (Landrover @30kts test) with a CBR (Californian Bearing Ratio) of 2.5 at 6” increasing, will make a decent Harrier strip. Somewhere in a land far away, I pogo-sticked myself across more fields than I care to remember. Still say that this is all a figment though.

Mog

In Paderborn we always used a convenient strip of road, much to the chagrin of pongos trying to get home for lunch. Wasn't that the reason for the distance between the outriggers or was it a coinicidence?

[Timelord]

I stand to be corrected but I think that these Harrier strips were in established military training areas / danger areas which is where you would choose to do something secret. Calvine / Glen Tilt is not such an area.

[BEagle]

No doubt an ex-RAFG Harrier sites mate could put this nonsense to bed PDQ, eh Mog?

[Matthew Illsley]

Re: the suggestion that there was a temporary airfield constructed at or near Glen Tilt in Perthshire in the late 80s or early 90s (operational certainly in 1990):

For the Harrier people here, did you ever operate from a strip outside a military training area or hear of US aircraft doing so in the UK?

Thank you.

[Matthew Illsley]

Hi Everyone,

A big thank you to all who contributed on here, and additional gratitude to those who emailed me privately with additional information.

The Disclosure Team's YouTube channel will be revealing a video that should interest those of you who are into this case.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IgekUVzMSCc

Also, there's a Daily Mail article which kind of spills the beans in its title:

https://www.mailplus.co.uk/edition/features/211532/revealed-after-32-years-the-top-secret-picture-one-mod-insider-calls-the-most-spectacular-ufo-photo-ever-captured

Cheers

[El Grifo]

Nice one Matthew !
Of immense interest to those of us who were following this story and one in the eye for the detractors !!

El Grifo

[Haraka]

Why does this nonsense still drag on? Nothing fits, nor is anything independently verifiable.!
Embarrasingly naive!

[Matthew Illsley]

Cheers Grifo! It was a good chase. At times we thought we'd never get there but we persisted and thankfully prevailed (with the photo at least)!

Nice one Matthew !
Of immense interest to those of us who were following this story and one in the eye for the detractors !!

El Grifo

[Ninthace]

Have you tracked down the ac in the background, which in the picture in the Mail, looks more like a Hunter than a Harrier?

[Matthew Illsley]

No, we drew a blank on that one unfortunately. It's a possibility, certainly, but others are equally insistent it's a Harrier, so that's still a mystery.

We've also tried everywhere we could think to look to find NOTAMs, but no one seems to have preserved any.

Cheers

Have you tracked down the ac in the background, which in the picture in the Mail, looks more like a Hunter than a Harrier?

[Haraka]

Seriously, Do you really think that this wouldn't have leaked from FJ aircrew after all these years?

[cynicalint]

Haraka,
It does not matter the amount of evidence, or lack of, that is presented, like flat-earthers nothing will shake their conviction that there is an official cover-up or conspiracy.

[Yellow Sun]

Haraka,
It does not matter the amount of evidence, or lack of, that is presented, like flat-earthers nothing will shake their conviction that there is an official cover-up or conspiracy.

Kids these day! Here’s a real example of proper investigative journalism (https://www.workshopshed.com/2018/04/world-war-ii-bomber-found-on-moon/) revealing a cover up, not just A blurred photo.

😜YS

[Davef68]

It’s a picture of a rock or island in a loch with its reflection and that of a jet (probably a Hunter) flying over, probably slightly under exposed to take the detail out. Nicely done but as real as all those Nessie photos.

[cynicalint]

It’s a picture of a rock or island in a loch with its reflection and that of a jet (probably a Hunter) flying over, probably slightly under exposed to take the detail out. Nicely done but as real as all those Nessie photos.

Nah, it is a tiny shard of glass, probably from the reflex mirror. It just looks large, and in focus due to the contact with the lens face.

[etudiant]

Nah, it is a tiny shard of glass, probably from the reflex mirror. It just looks large, and in focus due to the contact with the lens face.

That may be, but it seems implausible considering the source. Why would a guy keep mum about this for decades if it was a 'shard of glass'?
Obviously he could be lying, but the combination of getting this photo and then having the military disappear it for decades is provocative.

[cynicalint]

Etudient, I refer you to post 173...

[etudiant]

Etudient, I refer you to post 173...

Fair point.

[iranu]

I did some analysis: Someone overlaid part of the photo with the view that is claimed the point the photo was taken from. Here is the brief Youtube video. It's bang on. Yes the fence posts aren't quite inline, but it's as near as anyone will get:

https://youtu.be/xy-KBoZklV0

Here's a still frame I got from the Metabunk thread on the same subject (from the same video) because I'm lazy - I've cropped that still video image for size:



https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/738x563/calvine_ufo_304e64e14588dbaa512a35bcd3a0610749e654ba.png

The point the photo is claimed to have been taken from is here - note the copse, which would match the trees in the above shot. NB: An Teampan is 415m above sea level:

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/945x426/photo_area_9ba69b391bfacdeef1ec5d55f8a6c26d157f859f.png

Here is a more detailed OS shot of the same area. Big red arrow points close to the copse and fence. Note the dotted line which is the path up to An Teampan past Struan point from Struan and the road. The description of the two Chefs walking up through a forest matches as there was once a plantation on that slope. You can see the lines on google maps/earth where the trees once were. Also note the solid black lines which are fences - that also matches the fence in the Youtube shot.:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/946x586/photo_point_close_up_56488f1d3c0b6dceb5c017541f00e74e9cecd27 4.png

If you go to An Teampan (56 45 46N 3 59 07W) on google earth and play around you can find the direction of the image in the Youtube video - the POV in the image below is clearly higher at 440m than the original point (415m), but you can see the same features which I've labelled. Obviously the farm (Auchanruidh) in the valley and between the forestry track and Allt Féith a' Chabair cannot be seen from the lower photo POV. You can also see the fences around the copse and others, which match the above OS map:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/882x492/3d_google_earth_line_2e33f454ce93fe0477617c3252279bf765d061e 7.png

If you follow Allt Féith a' Chablair, which is a stream/burn, towards the mountain, you find the mountain is Farragon Hill at 783m and 7 miles away from the point the Youtube still is taken from, which is from the video of the researchers earlier in the thread:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/864x729/line_of_sight_to_farragon_hill_901ff6c49f8d04c5ed193d17cde9f 2170acd8d11.jpg

I think everything matches up. There's a lot of info and images in this post so I'll leave it there and comment on another post.

[iranu]

Here are my own thoughts:

Mirror image/reflection in water.

There are a few debunkers who are speculating that the symmetry of the "UFO" (for want of a better word) in the image could be caused by a reflection in water. What they've forgotten about is where the photo was claimed to have been taken and ask themselves if there is a) a body of water in the vicinity which could provide a reflection and b) can that body of water be in the camera's lens/view.

Loch Tummel is in the direction of the camera lens, but it's far below at some 630m below Farragon Hill and miles away from it, thus a reflection in water is not going to produce any symmetry.

The aircraft, not the UFO.

I'm pretty sure the aircraft in the image is real. It does look like a Harrier, but it also looks like a Hunter. As far as RAF operations are concerned, this area was not one where anyone would expect a Harrier of whatever mark to train/fly and the MoD said there were no Harrier aircraft flying in the region at the time. Well they would say that wouldn't they!! However, that would make sense. If someone asks and the answer is no, it's not a conspiracy, but what about Hunters or even USMC Harriers? I had a brief google and 237 OCU (Operation Conversion Unit) Squadron were flying Hunters from RAF Lossiemouth at the time. Occam's Razor would suggest that's the likely case and some bugger has a logbook showing such!

Is there a possibility the aircraft is a USMC AV8B? I haven't spent the time to look into that, but I know there are far more knowledgable people than me who will know.

So how did such an image come about?

Having seen the video above, which matches the surrounding terrain and having looked into it as per my post above, I'm convinced that the photo shows the top of Farragon Hill with a Harrier/Hunter in the foreground heading along the valley and going west to east along one of the valleys.

I've done a good bit of hill walking and mountain biking in Scotland, albeit 25 years ago, but not in the region the photo was taken. There were plenty of times I saw low flying aircraft, including a pair of Tornados, way below Ben Etive coming into the valley via Loch Etive, as I was climbing up. You felt you could reach out and touch them. Obviously the aircraft photographed was much further away, but, as we all know, it's not unusual to see military aircraft at low level in Scotland.

I think the noise of that aircraft made them look in the general direction and see something that looked weird. The two chefs claimed that the object (UFO) was stationary for 10 minutes and that the aircraft circled around. The top of a mountain doesn't move. It's silent and not man-made. The only thing the top of a mountain doesn't do is shoot straight up having been stationary for 10 minutes.

I think there's much more to this story and it isn't aliens or secret US aircraft. I think the pair heard the aircraft, turned and watched, saw something they couldn't immediately explain, got spooked and took photos, but, because of the weather conditions at the time, the photographic quality of the camera and the way the negatives were produced ended up with what we see today and the idea of the UFO shooting straight up was part of them being spooked.

I've no explanation as to why the mountain top ended up being the only part of the photo, along with the aircraft, which were seen so clearly (along with the fence and overhanging tree) in the resulting photo, but I think that's simply the camera, the media, conditions and the way the negative was processed. We can only see the camera result, not the human eye.

I think this photo is genuine, but the interpretation is wrong as far as wishing this to be an alien craft or a 'black' US project.

[cynicalint]

Iranu,
your analysis is spot on. It is an original, unadulterated image taken from where it was purported to have been taken. Your map, video and image work is spot on, as is your final sentence. A tiny, free- moveable shard of glass, probably chipped from the reflex mirror would give the diamond shape in the image, but would have fallen out of frame for subsequent shots, thus not appearing again on any frame.

[Matthew Illsley]

Hi All,
Fwiw, the metabunk forum is here: https://www.metabunk.org/threads/calvine-ufo-photo-reflection-in-water-hypothesis.12572/
The analysis by the Sheffield Hallam photography lecturer is here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QPqd-G9f7vMW77orEHlvQHagrxm3uZ9r/view
And there's a forthcoming Q&A here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kQqt0d34nbI
Cheers

[Matthew Illsley]

I've no explanation as to why the mountain top ended up being the only part of the photo, along with the aircraft, which were seen so clearly (along with the fence and overhanging tree) in the resulting photo, but I think that's simply the camera, the media, conditions and the way the negative was processed. We can only see the camera result, not the human eye.

I think this photo is genuine, but the interpretation is wrong as far as wishing this to be an alien craft or a 'black' US project.

I think therein lies the problem. Some hoax explanations seem partially or superficially correct whilst having very big holes in them. On the other hand, there's lots of testimony (which is not evidence, I grant you) about this being real, a lot of which we can speak about in the Q&A.

The answer might lie with the witnesses, and believe you me, we've tried (and are still trying) to find them. Until and unless we do, I'm still a bit on the fence (in the foreground!). Cheers.

[Haraka]

My guess is that the hoaxers got scared off of being identified as such.

[cynicalint]

My guess is that the hoaxers got scared off of being identified as such.
Exactly! They saw the aircraft below and tried to photograph it. The glass shard ws there when the film was exposed for that exposure and became apparrent when the film was processed. What followed was just speculation. The MOD would have said nothing as the exercise in determining a real picture of a UFO or not would have used techniques, then, that were probably classified and anyone who has worked with classified information knows it ios easier to store for 30 years than downgrade or get rid of it. This is just a hoax.

[Haraka]

Nothing ties in here that justifies further serious consideration:
No original negative has surfaced..
No probable Harrier was around at the time and place of the alleged sighting,
The claimed object moved in a way that no high speed American "Black Project"could reasonably be expected to do.
The anonymous 'witnesses" have absented themselves from being interviewed .
So pretty much no provenance to justify any further attempts at serious analysis
Nick Pope,of course, was a fairly junior desk clerk in the MoD Secretariat and never in the particular DIS environment where incoming imagery of interest was technically analysed by qualified engineering and imagery interpretion professionals. See https://ico.org.uk/media/action-weve-taken/decision-notices/2021/4019229/ic-80931-x2x9.pdf

[Corporal Clott]

Fairly sure that your Harrier is actually a Hunter!

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1307/805b74a4_09df_4a33_b15f_af9df8bd4b55_298c3f52746423e3dbbb340 c0a50f73fd22b8f3f.jpeg


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/108x155/c273cc5b_9929_46d2_9954_9835da92fbde_ff06fa611f5f1bf53880d3a 379c3b29ed4ec2f96.jpeg

[Haraka]

I would suggest that the photo comparison just submitted rather seems to support the alternative Harrier contention ,. :)

[chevvron]

Take a look at 'Spectators Balcony' for a thread about the 'Aurora'

[Matthew Illsley]

Hello Everyone,

The research team and I have an article in The Daily Record today that may be of interest. (Link below)

It names the photographer and even contains a photograph of him from 1990.

There will also be a chat about the Calvine case to be released at the end of the week on https://m.youtube.com/c/DisclosureTeamVinnie where we will go through how we have arrived at this point.

​​​​​​https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scots-hotel-porter-could-hold-29380068

Thanks

[typerated]

Hello.

Some new info has come to light that might be of interest/use.

As we know, the MoD has always denied having Harriers in Scotland at the time/day when the Calvine photo was allegedly taken. They might well be telling the truth, or they might be being a little pedantic due to official secrecy and the nature of parliamentary answers, e.g.

Q: "Can the Minister please say whether the RAF had Harriers near Calvine at 9pm on 4th August 1990?"
A: "No, we didn't." (Unsaid: We had Harriers near Calvine at 8.55pm, but you didn't ask that.)

Anyway, according to Hansard, between 30th July and 3rd August 1990 (the day before the Calvine sighting allegedly occurred), the low-flying exercise Mallet Blow 90/2 was undertaken in northern England and the Borders region of Scotland (which doesn't include Calvine, but it's reasonably close).
In the 18 Mallet Blow exercises from Mallet Blow 84/1 to Mallet Blow 89/2, Harriers were involved in every instance.
In Mallet Blow 89/2, a total of 193 Tornadoes, Jaguars, Harriers, F-111s, F-16s, and F-18s took part, so it was quite large.
And in Mallet Blow 90/1, aircraft flew from the following bases:

RAF Brize Norton
RAF Coltishall
RAF Coningsby
RAF Cottesmore
RAF Honington
RAF Leeming
RAF Leuchars
RAF Linton-on-Ouse
RAF Marham
RAF Waddington
RAF Wattisham
RAF Wittering
A & AEE Boscombe Down
RAF Alconbury
RAF Bentwaters
RAF Lakenheath
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Bruggen
RAF Laarbruch
331W
RAF Gutersloh
GAF Büchel
GAF Bremgarten
GAF Leck
GAF Norvenich
NAEWF Geilenkirchen

A few thoughts/queries:

Q1. Do any old hands hence recall Mallet Blow 90/2 and the involvement of any Harriers, please?
Q2. During Mallet Blow exercises up to 90/2, night flying wasn't apparently permitted (11pm to 7am), and scheduled flying seemed to end 30 minutes after sunset. (Sunset on 4.8.1990 in Calvine was at 21:22, so in practical terms, was there enough time for a Harrier or two to be in the air at 9pm over Calvine and fly back to a nearby base by 21:52?)
Q3. If Mallet Blow 90/2 ended on Friday 3rd August 1990, might there have been any reason for a Harrier or two to just stay over in southern Scotland or northern England (at a base other than their home squadron base), and hence be in the air on Saturday 4th August?
Q4. Were exercises like Mallet Blow ever extended for 24 hours or into a weekend for any reason (bad weather, logistics, more practice requested)?

Thank you.

Yes there would have been Harriers on the Ex - there were on all Mallet Blow's
But your area is a long way from the Exercise area - the ground attack aircraft (such as Harrier) did not route over any part of Scotland. The route was essentially - Yorkshire Dales - Lake District - Spadeadam - Otterburn - Boulmer and down the East Coast - Reverse on Tuesday and Thursday!
The exercise would also essentially finish at lunch on Friday. Certainly no flying on Saturdays.
Red Herring I'm afraid

[Ninthace]

Didn’t we also establish in previous discussions that no Harriers were airborne anywhere that weekend? Certainly no UK owned Harriers anyway.

[NutLoose]

SNP arriving in Scotland?

[Matthew Illsley]

Yes, certainly from all the publicly available declassified squadron record books, there were no RAF Harriers in the air on Saturday 4th August 1990.

Cheers
Didn’t we also establish in previous discussions that no Harriers were airborne anywhere that weekend? Certainly no UK owned Harriers anyway.

[Matthew Illsley]

Hello
Previously, it was explained to me by people with RAF experience that military contractors like BAe sometimes used Hunters as in-flight camera platforms during tests of new vehicles.

It's now doing the rounds that BAe had its own Harriers. Does anyone have any knowledge to support or contradict that claim, please?

Thank you.

[Ninthace]

BAe is not listed as an operator and there is still the flying at the weekend issue.
List of Harrier operators - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Harrier_operators)
Not listed in their historic fleet either
BAE Systems Fleet Details and History (planespotters.net) (https://www.planespotters.net/airline/BAE-Systems)

[treadigraph]

BAe did operate the two seater demonstrator G-VTOL between 1970 and 1990, though I'd think the image doesn't suit the T.2's longer profile.

[NutLoose]

The picture in the Daily Record link is a lot more clearer. Surely if Aliens were going to visit the World they would choose an area with more intelligent life forms.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/810x539/image_4403b4620b87611a9181f970c09eeb74d37ef998.png

[Ninthace]

The fins at the back are fun
https://i.postimg.cc/VvsY9zBP/2023-03-06.png (https://postimages.org/)

[Matthew Illsley]

The Record has used the mock-up version of the Calvine image originally produced by a computer artist and Nick Pope many years ago for an article in The Sun (or a TV show on Channel 5, I forget which came first).
The picture in the Daily Record link is a lot more clearer. Surely if Aliens were going to visit the World they would choose an area with more intelligent life forms.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/810x539/image_4403b4620b87611a9181f970c09eeb74d37ef998.png

[El Grifo]

The picture in the Daily Record link is a lot more clearer. Surely if Aliens were going to visit the World they would choose an area with more intelligent life forms.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/810x539/image_4403b4620b87611a9181f970c09eeb74d37ef998.png

Considering that Scotland voted 62% in favour of remaining in the EU, that perhaps demonstrates a higher intelligence :8

El G

[Ninthace]

The Record has used the mock-up version of the Calvine image originally produced by a computer artist and Nick Pope many years ago for an article in The Sun (or a TV show on Channel 5, I forget which came first).
Are you saying that the picture we are currently looking at has been doctored? If so, surely all bets are off,

[Matthew Illsley]

No, not at all.

The image above is fictional. It came from Nick Pope talking to an artist about his memory of the real Calvine photo he said he saw posted to the wall in the Sec AS office in London in the early 1990s.

The real photo is the one the Daily Record sent to Craig Lindsay when he was the RAF Press Officer for Scotland and Northern Ireland. That's available in many places, e.g. https://drdavidclarke.co.uk/2022/08/12/the-calvine-ufo-revealed/

Cheers

Are you saying that the picture we are currently looking at has been doctored? If so, surely all bets are off,

[Davef68]

Hello
Previously, it was explained to me by people with RAF experience that military contractors like BAe sometimes used Hunters as in-flight camera platforms during tests of new vehicles.

It's now doing the rounds that BAe had its own Harriers. Does anyone have any knowledge to support or contradict that claim, please?

Thank you.

The first three Harrier GR5/7s (ZD318, ZD319 and ZD320) remained with BAE as test/trials airframes throughout the life of the Harrier II, although they were never owned by BAE

[Matthew Illsley]

Thank you very much.

The first three Harrier GR5/7s (ZD318, ZD319 and ZD320) remained with BAE as test/trials airframes throughout the life of the Harrier II, although they were never owned by BAE

[Davef68]

The Record has used the mock-up version of the Calvine image originally produced by a computer artist and Nick Pope many years ago for an article in The Sun (or a TV show on Channel 5, I forget which came first).
This is the one I see

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scots-hotel-porter-could-hold-29380068


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/615x492/0_js292672141_1_9ff2edcd199a32d97d4b0bc1d744a7bf7215a73e.jpg

[Matthew Illsley]

Yes, this one below is the real, untouched one that Craig Lindsay was sent and kept for 32 years. No one's ever altered it.

Cheers
This is the one I see

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scots-hotel-porter-could-hold-29380068


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/615x492/0_js292672141_1_9ff2edcd199a32d97d4b0bc1d744a7bf7215a73e.jpg

[Davef68]

Thank you very much.
Should have said they did swap back and forward with AAEE/DERA etc during that time

[Ninthace]

This is the one I see

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scots-hotel-porter-could-hold-29380068


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/615x492/0_js292672141_1_9ff2edcd199a32d97d4b0bc1d744a7bf7215a73e.jpg
That is not the same picture as posted higher up, The ac is in a different position and the terrain is different.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

I recall seeing an airship that shape. However, at the time it was speared on its mooring mast LOL

[The B Word]

It does make you wonder if the late 1970s Thermo-Skyship technology was taken further under wraps. This is the open-source version that flew at Cardington:
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1114x1532/5da912d8_1bbe_4fe6_a62b_c9ce8830f21e_d54c73c387b67b4669e5a29 d2cebd9577e839854.jpeg

More details in this article: https://lynceans.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Thermo-Skyships_hybrid-thermal-airships_R1a-converted-compressed.pdf

This was the claim at the time in the late 70s as it was being developed:
A major European car ferry operator financed the development of the British Thermo-Skyship, a saucer-shaped airship using helium and super-heated air for lift and ducted thrust from turbofan engines for vertical take-off and landing and for cruise flight. A 9.14-m (30-ft) diameter model of the ship has flown, from which will be developed a Skyship car ferry capable of carrying 60 passengers and their cars from England to France at 165 kph (103 mph), and 152- and 508-tonne (150- and 500-ton) cargo-carrying saucers.

Thermo-Skyship was big news in the late ‘70s, and I remember reading about it in the aviation magazines as a very young kid. It even made a debate in the House of Lords as recorded in Hansard: https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/1977-04-28/debates/96cbb107-27c6-4f87-8ad2-9ccb6c76475e/LighterThanAirTransport

Here is a colour still of the original flying mock-up:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1618x1252/0a4f6aba_8a98_437d_8ca7_ab69bba18b0e_d407ef12f4776d4f0b4b897 eaca746c0fa33ffe4.jpeg
This is a link to the video on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df-d3QsEPBE

But by the 1980s it kind of went all quiet. All too difficult and we saw some conventional airships being made a at Cardington instead. The linked article states:

Late 1982: In late 1982, a “de-merger” was agreed, and the former TSL rigid airship technical and management team left AI and formed Wren Skyships, Ltd. on the Isle of Man with Malcolm Wren serving as Managing Director. Their focus was on developing the R.30 and the RS.1 rigid, metal-clad airships. Roger Munk remained with AI and focused on developing the Skyship line of non-rigid airships.

Hmmm… “metal-clad airships”, “Isle of Man” and “demerger” of technology?

So, here is a way out theory, but probably more likely than “little green men”. Suppose that the Thermo-Skyship design and development was bought out by a British Defence consortium in 1982/3 leaving the Cardington-based company to switch to the more conventional SkyShip-500 design as seen in the 1985 Bond movie “A View To A Kill”? Suppose that the turbojet version of Thermo-Skyship was developed and built in secret? Suppose that this turbojet craft had a speed of closer to 150-200kts and the Hunter chase aircraft as shown in the photo was a T-bird with someone else operating it remotely over a fairly quiet area of Scotland? Or maybe they lost control of it and the Hunter (it still doesn’t look like a Harrier to me) was trying to regain control of it having flown out of the range at West Freugh? This technology is either now shelved or cancelled like several of the remote control craft built by British industry (Corax, Raven, Demon, HERTi, Mantis and Taranis come immediately to mind). Now, wouldn’t that make a more likely story than ET coming to visit?

Now, take a look at this:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1801x1356/d1f75cd5_bf43_4f3f_92d9_f9c6f5078bb4_85ed7217fc8e538fe80c08f 90973f45122b479c3.jpeg
Look at Thermo-Skyships and everything in between it and Hybrid Air Vehicles (HAV). Also, look at the date of Airship-Industries being broken up - Aug 90 - 1 month before your alleged sighting. Then look at the HAV Airlander 10, that is a descendent of that Thermo-Skyship, and especially the ducted thrust unit on the tail - doesn’t it look similar to the tail-end arrangement in your 1990’s grainy photo? I also suspect the black blob on the side of the unidentified aircraft is another turbo-jet mounted on the side as per the original Thermo-Skyship design in the video to give manoeuvre and forward thrust when needed.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1192x951/281b4bc2_c544_483a_90b3_2e7b833b87a7_ae3968b6559f55864e534b9 dc2b7beee037583d7.jpeg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/480x320/c92d40aa_936d_4a20_8a67_3855595bce70_24fda87491dff443dc8fcdc 47f7d0e9e3686b36b.jpeg

So, my guess is that the grainy photo above shows a highly secretive development of Thermo-Skyship, with the envisioned turbo-jets powering a more aerodynamic shape (possibly with some early stealth features) with a company test aircraft escorting it - probably a Hawker Hunter by the looks of it. I’d say that this is more plausible than some of the theories put out there…

[Ninthace]

An airship that can suddenly appear in a remote area without anyone seeing it transit there or move on from there? Silent turbojets? No operating base?
Not, not buying it.

[The B Word]

Why ever not, Ninthace ? Even the Russians were at it in the 90s too…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx5AmHxoQJY

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoplan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx5AmHxoQJY)

The Thermo-Skyship also predicted a 600-900 mile range at over 100kts in its original envisaged configuration in the magazines of the day. it could also quite easily go in and out under cover of darkness. It does have a large heat signature though, but in those days the average layman didn’t have that sort of tech to see it at night without lights.

As for silent turbojets - wouldn’t the Hunter (or Harrier) have created a bit of racket, or are you suggesting they were glider variants? :}

Finally, the Russians also, according to this article: https://lynceans.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Thermoplan_hybrid-thermal-airships-converted.pdf were developing a nuke powered thermoplane that could fly for 8 years! :eek:

[Ninthace]

Too big, too cumbersome, too slow and too noisy to operate unnoticed. Again, how did it go I unremarked for the rest of its sortie to and from wherever it launched, both visually and on radar? If it was a chase plane, why did not stay with it?

I still think it is a Surgeon’s photograph.

[The B Word]

Ninthace here are some answers that might fit:

1. Firstly, this is not really an airship as you would normally think of. The Thermo-Skyship (or Thermoplan) that the Russians built uses bleed air, heated to up to 1200 deg C, to supplement normal ballonettes full of helium to create a significant amount of buoyancy. Just like the Hybrid Air Vehicle Airlander, they create more lift in forward flight by the shape of the hull as a lifting body (plenty of examples of that). Vertical flight is augmented by vectored thrust by rotating the jet turbines, and as the Thermo-Skyship weighs nearly at ‘lighter than air’ then less thrust is needed for vertical lift. Once lifted it transitions to horizontal flight by a fixed engine at the rear (with thrust vectoring nozzles) and rotating the lift jets to the horizontal giving it at 150kts-200kts forward speed (or maybe more depending on the design). To generate that near to negative bouyancy in flight then the engines at close to idle may produce enough heat to keep the hot air flowing into the lifting body shape making appear to hover (as per the YouTube video above).

2. As stated, they were experimenting with rigid structures by using light-gauge alloy plating instead of normal airship farbric/rubber skins. Research it, rigid airship structures are a thing and oddly enough Thermo-Skyship and Thermoplan used such. Also, look at the shape in the 1990 photo - it is seriously faceted - the same techniques to make it low observable to radar as used on the earlier stealth aircraft of the time.

3. Look at the weather in the photo. It looks like a fairly low cloud base. So it was either flying low level beneath it - which would make it suddenly appear to an observer on the ground - or it it was flying above the cloud and had a malfunction that saw it drop, very slowly due to its partial negative bouyancy through the cloud into view. Now, the approach speed of a Hunter is around 130-135 kts, so flying around slow speed would be possible (obviously a Harrier could go slower, but if it is a Harrier it is more likely a GR3 given the timeline).

4. Where did it go after the picture? Maybe back to VMC on top? Maybe to West Freugh, maybe to BAe Warton or the Wren Skyship company had set up on Jurby on the Isle of Man from 1982 (they even built a big airship sized hangar there). At the time of the photo Jurby Army Trg Camp was still MOD and the TA used its domestic accommodation from time to time. It’s fairly quiet at Jurby on the north of the Isle of Man, so that is possible.

I agree, this could be a “Surgeon’s Photo” equivalent of Nessie, but from what I understand many poured over it for years. To me it seems more plausible that someone spotted a compartmented research aircraft on camera on that day in 1990. There are many things that still have “kept their lid on” from the Cold War (or the end of it) and the technology is certainly feasible, if only to compare it to the Russian (that started as Soviet) Thermoplan in the other video. The observer sees this object, the shock of seeing something so unusual that means their brain fills in the gaps of ‘what they want to see’, then you get a story about some UFO type thing. Brains are good at giving things to believe on recollection!


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1072x1600/45ba3394_12b8_4ac0_9741_21178616a745_4599d7a6fbb15a1add4ff40 1e5b7e8ea88db0940.jpeg

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/270x187/99e179e9_c1bd_4443_be17_6fda57349a59_657db29013ecbf69e81de1c 309f8d8841c101ca2.jpeg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x437/05aa119d_b021_4ed7_8738_6e6992c3533b_fb14d9cdfbba95f92e8e038 5b110ee0f534de94f.jpeg

[Ninthace]

You are still ignoring that this is the only time it was ever seen that day or, as far as we know any other day, It has not been seen going in an out of any of the locations you mention, ever. It was not seen en route at any point, ever. Given the transit speeds you suggest that is unlikely. A craft like that would be visible on radar, it is not that stealthy, so we have to assume they are all in on it too, both civil and military.

Finally, why on earth would a fancy airship be a black project?

[The B Word]

Because it isn’t really an airship as we know them. We also have no idea of scale in that photo.

I can recall when BAe released this photo in the early 2000s:

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x387/3bd6b338_53d1_4530_b7b0_50101200bb96_59d68af71395d8966826007 046c5666fd95eef96.jpeg

This is Raven. I envisaged a massive Typhoon sized aircraft. When I saw it, it had about a 4-5ft wingspan! Maybe that is why there aren’t many photos of it? It also flew at the remote Woomera range, so not many folks there to photograph it either (nor Corax, Kestrel or Demon).

[Ninthace]

And yet you can provide a clear picture of it and its existence is well known as are similar projects.

[Haraka]

Ninthace . You are wasting your time I fear. :) (As with anything involving the unqualified and unfounded Walter Mitty assertions of individuals such as Nick Pope who was a fairly junior secreterial clerk letter response writer without any aeronautical engineering or imagery analysis background)

[Ninthace]

Yes Nick Pope is one of those who rose without trace and now makes a successful career out of not a lot because folk want to believe,

[chevvron]

Yes Nick Pope is one of those who rose without trace and now makes a successful career out of not a lot because folk want to believe,
In my work, I used to have access to the MOD Directory and although there was a section to which he could have been attached, it was one of those places where they sent details of anything which they felt was outside their remit and there were a lot of these 'pigeon holes' to be dealt with in addition to just UFO Reports which were right at the bottom of the list I saw.
Pope would have been able to see some documents but only in as much as he would have forwarded them to others in MOD who were trained experts in their field. The way he reads is that he was in sole charge of any investigations whereas nothing could be further from the truth.
I always assumed that he was the EO (Executive Officer) in charge of his section but from what I've read, he was much lower in the food chain.
I once had occasion to speak to a young lady at MOD when I was able to explain away a UFO sighting which had been sent to me in my capacity as an Air Traffic Controller at RAE Farnborough (as it was then); she phoned me to thank me for my input as it helped clear at least one case from their files which she would otherwise have been obliged to forward to other MOD experts. This would have been after Nick Pope ceased his connection with the secretariat as she said she was the one in charge; I believe they move civil servants round in MOD every few years.

[langleybaston]

I believe they move civil servants round in MOD every few years.[/QUOTE]

Tiny digression on MoD civil service mobility back in the day.

Indeed so. I ran a sort of refresher course at the Met Office College for three years late 1970s. About 5 courses of 12 or so bodies on each, total sample about 180, 90% men.

I gathered stats of their careers to date ........ aged mid 30s to early 40s, borderline HSO to SSO material [SSO being charged S/Ldr Mess rates].

Average period on one station or civil airfield before next "permanent" posting 3 years, average detachments during each posting about 4. Thus most of them had moved house [or undertaken long commutes] a goodly number of times. In those days many wives did not do full time work. The big shift to working wives was when mortgages could be based on joint salary income [my opinion].

No complaints, it was a mobile contract and we had a degree of say over most moves, or at least the timings. The one kiss of death was to a day job at Bracknell. [Me? One Bracknell stint of 19 weeks, and later-on another of 12 weeks. More than enough].

[Ninthace]

Back in the day (early 1980s) the Orderly Officer's pile of useful bumf included a pad of UFO forms in case a member of the public phoned in. They must have disappeared soon afterwards as I don't recall seeing them on anything other than my first tour.

It was an odd collection of stuff in the briefcase and the safe, everything from gloves and the key to rescue the Royal Standard in the event of a fire and sealed envelopes containing instructions in case a royal shuffled of their mortal coil, right through to the UFO forms. Most of it, other than the pad of signal forms, was pretty much useless in dealing with most crises that arose during your shift. I always wondered how the porn stash was maintained though, as it was never the same and sometimes never there.

[langleybaston]

One knew that one had been accepted in the team when the location of the porn was revealed.
This was always significantly later than subscribibg to the coffee swindle.

[J.A.F.O.]

That photo looks to me like an island reflected in calm water with the reflection of an aircraft nearer the camera.