Flights to/from Ukraine

[davidjohnson6]

As many will be aware, there are some very serious geopolitical tensions affecting Ukraine right now. See the website of BBC, Sky, CNN or another major news organisation for details
At what stage do commercial airlines (or their insurers) make the decision to stop ordinary passenger flights ? When non-domestic Govts start telling their citizens to leave ? When bullets start flying ? Something else ?

[RA85684]

So far I don't think there's any need to be stopping passenger flights in and out of Ukraine and to do so would be knee-jerk and damaging to the Ukranian economy which is no doubt already struggling just like everywhere else in the world.

I don't think we will see bullets fly. War will be avoided at all costs. This one is a case of 'stay calm and wait it out' and hope the diplomats know what they're doing.

[OzzyOzBorn]

Remember too that Ukraine is huge. The troubled border area is a long way East.

[Bergerie1]

Following up on the remarks about serious geopolitical tensions in Ukraine, the first thing to understand is that Ukraine is not really a homogenous country, there are major differences between the western and eastern parts. Next I would ask do we in the west really understand the Russian point of view? One of the most important things in any crisis or conflict is to understand the needs, fears, motives and main strategic interests of the other side. I am certainly not an apologist for Putin, but is the Russian perception that there was a deal not to expand NATO eastwards a myth or is it something convenient for Putin to use it now?

Furthermore, have we miscalculated and not fully understood Russian concerns?. Other than Ukraine being a territory through which much of Europe's natural gas is supplied, is Ukraine really of such great strategic importance to us in the west that we should risk a war? I know there is much talk in the press about not appeasing aggressors but might we not be pushing Putin (for whatever reasons that might exist in his paranoiac mind) just a little too far as this American academic suggests?

Take a look at this video:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4

[SWBKCB]

Take a look at this video:-

Or maybe read all the other Pprune threads on the subject, and leave this one to the question asked?

[LGS6753]

At present there are no aircraft showing over any part of Ukraine east of Kiev on FR24. Almost all of the aircraft in Ukraine airspace are flying to/from a Ukrainian destination - the exception being a single FlyDubai 737 in transit over the far west of the country, some 500 km from the nearest point of the Russian border.

[Bergerie1]

SWBKCB, The answer to your question is when the airline concerned receives either a goverment warning, or the country concerned isssues a NOTAM or the airline make its own assesment using many inputs from many organisations that it is no longer safe to operate there. It is a complex problem.

[davidjohnson6]

I was rather hoping to (as far as possible) minimise the discussion of politics... and focus entirely on the operational side for airlines - i.e. what would trigger an airline (or its insurer) to start cancelling flights, even if the commercial revenue is acceptable
Lufthansa (plus OS and LX) and also KLM decided yesterday to stop overnighting in Kyiv-Boryspil, and fly only in the day time - i.e. spend no more than maybe 90 mins on the ground in daylight
Yes, I'm aware that airlines in western Europe are going to be more cautious about flying to (for example) Kharkiv close to the Russian border in the east, compared to Lviv close to the Polish border in the west

Would anyone have any opinions as to what airlines who approach Ukraine from the west might choose to do, when the risk is deemed too high, and what would be the trigger points for making those decisions ?

In case anyone is wondering - I'm not a journalist - please have a look at the record of my previous posts as verification that I ask the question in genuine curiosity

[nighthawk117]

Airlines will cease flying there when either they deem it no longer economical to do so (too many people cancelling over the fear of war) or when the foreign office issues a warning to avoid travel to the region.

[pabely]

W6 flights from LTN departed as normal today so they see no issues, suspect loads will be light outbound though.

[BA318]

Skyup Airlines has said it has been told by insurance companies that they will no longer cover flights within Ukrainian airspace.

They also said global leasing companies have told them to return the planes to the EU as soon as possible.

Last night’s flight from Funchal to Kiev diverted to Moldova because of the situation.

[Dannyboy39]

I suspect this is Ops normal but lots of Russian airliners straddling the border regions on the Russia side - presumably because Ukraine wouldn’t give them overflight permissions?

[DaveReidUK]

I suspect this is Ops normal but lots of Russian airliners straddling the border regions on the Russia side - presumably because Ukraine wouldn’t give them overflight permissions?

Or Russia is keeping civilian aircraft out of the way ...

[davidjohnson6]

Or Ukraine is refusing entry to Russian aircraft

[DaveReidUK]

Yes, I think we've exhausted all the possibilities ...

[pabely]

Skyup Airlines has said it has been told by insurance companies that they will no longer cover flights within Ukrainian airspace.

They also said global leasing companies have told them to return the planes to the EU as soon as possible.

Last night’s flight from Funchal to Kiev diverted to Moldova because of the situation.
As I look now, SkyUp seem to be operating as normal.

[RedDragonFlyer]

Things do seem to be fairly 'normal' at the moment.

Ukrainian airlines, including SkyUp, are still flying in and out of Ukraine. As are most foreign airlines. A Lufthansa plane has just landed in Kiev.

I imagine passenger loads inbound are pretty poor mind.

[davidjohnson6]

Ukraine Intl Air (UIA) has been asked by lessors to move 5 aircraft out of the country
https://www.avianews.com/ukraine/2022/02/14/mau_planes_fly_away/

[TBSC]

AUI ferried five B738s and an Embraer 195 to Castellon and two B738s to Belgrade today.
A Bees B738 is being ferried from Kyiv to Monpellier.
A Windrose ATR is on its way from Dnipro to Ostend through Prague.

[davidjohnson6]

Vueling have zero'ed out all flights to/from Kyiv for all dates up to and including 28 February. FR24 shows flights were 2x weekly up to and including 13 February

[USERNAME_]

W6 flights from LTN departed as normal today so they see no issues, suspect loads will be light outbound though.

LWO and IEV are going out pretty full. 211 and 176 respectively on tomorrows departures from LTN.

[davidjohnson6]

Lessors to demand that Bees Airline move all (yes, all) its aircraft out of Ukraine
https://www.avianews.com/ukraine/2022/02/15/beesairline_all_fleet_to_fly_away/

[davidjohnson6]

The UK and USA are both shutting down their embassy offices in Kyiv and moving functions to Lviv instead. Joe Biden has stated in a news conference he believes Putin has made a decision to invade Ukraine

While Ryanair and Wizzair have carried on flying (and I admire them for doing so)... I'm wondering now what their insurers are saying to MOL and Váradi...

[davidjohnson6]

Lufthansa Group to suspend flights to Kyiv and Odesa
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/19/lufthansa-group-to-suspend-kyiv-odessa-flights.html

[davidjohnson6]

Large chunks of Ukrainian airspace are now closed

[BA318]

Large chunks of Ukrainian airspace are now closed

It seems the invasion is underway. Reports Russian forces are trying to take Kiev Airport.

[BA318]

Ivano-Frankivsk airport took a direct hit. https://twitter.com/BNONews/status/1496738880749727755?s=20&t=Pqe55BI62c3VFNrEUzZldQ

[Pain in the R's]

The EU and U.K. need to ban all Russian aircraft from overflying its airspace.

[macdo]

WIZZ were crowing about continuing ops into Ukraine only a day or so ago. Maybe unwise with hindsight.https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/02/24/wizz-air-tries-rescue-staff-four-planes-stranded-ukraine/?utm_content=business&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1645711437-2

[Icerefugee]

The EU and U.K. need to ban all Russian aircraft from overflying its airspace.
Surprised / horrified to see BA and LH operated into and thankfully out of Moscow today.
It's a thin line between being brave and stupid.

[AirportPlanner1]

Surprised / horrified to see BA and LH operated into and thankfully out of Moscow today.
It's a thin line between being brave and stupid.

Why? What missiles do you think are heading for Moscow?

Probably a good idea though for citizens to get in/out before Russia reciprocates airspace bans.

[BA318]

Why? What missiles do you think are heading for Moscow?

Probably a good idea though for citizens to get in/out before Russia reciprocates airspace bans.

Doesn't have to be missiles for it to be dangerous. Russia’s lack of rule of law means they could easily impound or make life difficult for crew and passengers.

Tomorrow’s BA LHR-Moscow flight has been cancelled.

[Fairdealfrank]

The EU and U.K. need to ban all Russian aircraft from overflying its airspace.

The UK has more to lose if this course of action is taken and Russian Federation retaliates.

It would almost double the distance between the UK and north Asia (e.g Heathrow-Tokyo/Hong Kong/Shanghai/Seoul etc.) if aircraft were banned from Russian airspace and had to fly via Cairo, Bombay, and Bangkok, as was the case in the "bad old days" before the 1980s. It would add a great deal of fuel expenditure and could mean the end of non-stop flights.

May not happen as Russia earns a lot revenue from these flights. Banning UK flights from Russian airspace would have a far bigger impact than vice versa.

[albatross]

Persistence in the face of reality.

[BA318]

The UK has more to lose if this course of action is taken and Russian Federation retaliates.

It would almost double the distance between the UK and north Asia (e.g Heathrow-Tokyo/Hong Kong/Shanghai/Seoul etc.) if aircraft were banned from Russian airspace and had to fly via Cairo, Bombay, and Bangkok, as was the case in the "bad old days" before the 1980s. It would add a great deal of fuel expenditure and could mean the end of non-stop flights.

May not happen as Russia earns a lot revenue from these flights. Banning UK flights from Russian airspace would have a far bigger impact than vice versa.

IAG have said they will no longer use Russian airspace. https://twitter.com/Jamie_Freed/status/1497113275498057728?s=20&t=a9ym5rvFcDqVZTjnUjWKYA

[DaveReidUK]

The UK has more to lose if this course of action is taken and Russian Federation retaliates.

It would almost double the distance between the UK and north Asia (e.g Heathrow-Tokyo/Hong Kong/Shanghai/Seoul etc.) if aircraft were banned from Russian airspace and had to fly via Cairo, Bombay, and Bangkok, as was the case in the "bad old days" before the 1980s. It would add a great deal of fuel expenditure and could mean the end of non-stop flights.

May not happen as Russia earns a lot revenue from these flights. Banning UK flights from Russian airspace would have a far bigger impact than vice versa.

Russia has indeed now banned UK aircraft from its airspace.

[Icerefugee]

Why? What missiles do you think are heading for Moscow?

Probably a good idea though for citizens to get in/out before Russia reciprocates airspace bans.
Don't you think there was a risk of aircraft and passengers and crew being held? Putin is not the most predictable of leaders. Pleased to see IAG have now decided not to overfly or land. Good to see they took the decision before Putin decided to ban UK overflying.

[SealinkBF]

Russia has called the UK banning Aeroflot "unfriendly". Which beggars belief.

[daz211]

Most of Aeroflots aircraft are registered in Bermuda, (British overseas territory). I’m sure the government could if they wanted to, make things very difficult for Aeroflots operations.

[LTNman]

Meanwhile the EU is still welcoming Russian flights

[LGS6753]

Meanwhile the EU is still welcoming Russian flights
No surprise there.

[daz211]

Meanwhile the EU is still welcoming Russian flights
Im not surprised, without getting political, the EU was designed to secure peace in the west, I have never known anything so disjointed and unorganised, every destination seems to take an age, surly a fast joint announcement on the banning of flights should have happened within hours and been fully inclusive of all Nato members.

[LGS6753]

Moldovan airspace now closed too for safety reasons.

[ATNotts]

Im not surprised, without getting political, the EU was designed to secure peace in the west, I have never known anything so disjointed and unorganised, every destination seems to take an age, surly a fast joint announcement on the banning of flights should have happened within hours and been fully inclusive of all Nato members.

NATO doesn't make laws so far as I can see. And naturally because the EU consists of 27 independent nations (a fact overlooked by some) it will always take longer to come to a compromise. Any of those independent states can take unilateral action should they so wish but the EU wants to show unity, hence, I suspect, the delay.

[LTNman]

ATNotts has just given 27 good reasons why the proposed EU army would never work. Meanwhile the U.K. bans Aeroflot while the EU has to consult 27 members. Reminds me of the early days EU vaccination fiasco.

[SWBKCB]

ATNotts has just given 27 good reasons why the proposed EU army would never work. Meanwhile the U.K. bans Aeroflot while the EU has to consult 27 members. Reminds me of the early days EU vaccination fiasco.

Agreed. Mind you, the whole 'Western' response seems odd. It could hardly have come as a huge surprise and you'd have thought they would have planned for the different scenarios and agreed what they were going to do in advance and then just rolled it out...

[AirportPlanner1]

ATNotts has just given 27 good reasons why the proposed EU army would never work. Meanwhile the U.K. bans Aeroflot while the EU has to consult 27 members. Reminds me of the early days EU vaccination fiasco.

Arguably, although of course they ended up overtaking us on vaccines. Slightly different dynamics though, we’re about 3% Russian gas whereas some in EU are more or less 100%. On the other hand they seem better at hitting individuals, whereas we’ve been weak (not hard to see the politics of why) with cross-party calls to do more.

An EU airspace ban for Russia would be much more effective though…ours is a minor inconvenience. Theirs would be devastating.

[daz211]

Just hearing Poland and Czech Republic are to close Airspace to Russian aircraft as from 23:59 tonight Friday 25th February.

[daz211]

The Uk has now banned all Russian private jets from its airspace.
(from RT News).

[AirportPlanner1]

And Bulgaria have also joined Czechia and Poland

[nomilk]

Meanwhile the EU is still welcoming Russian flightsMeanwhile the EU member states make sure that their citizens don't get stuck in Russia and give them time to get out. These "Russian" flights are full of people trying to get out. It is not Russian oligarchs or tourists on a shopping tour in Munich or Geneva.

Sometimes I despair with comments on here.

[daz211]

Countries have been advising their citizens to leave for weeks and flights are still operating for bordering countries.

[Spanish eyes]

The Russian people are subject to the state propaganda machine so most seem to support the war due to a distorted view of events. If the Russian people are to be impacted by sanctions I can’t see how Russian airlines should be allowed to take its citizens on nice little EU holidays to the beach while Ukraine is occupied.

[DaveReidUK]

The Russian people are subject to the state propaganda machine so most seem to support the war due to a distorted view of events. If the Russian people are to be impacted by sanctions I can’t see how Russian airlines should be allowed to take its citizens on nice little EU holidays to the beach while Ukraine is occupied.

On the other hand, you could argue that the more Russians citizens who are exposed to opinions other than the viewpoint of the state-controlled Russian media, the better for the world.

[DaveReidUK]

The UK has now banned all Russian private jets from its airspace.
(from RT News).

Correct - yesterday's NOTAM has now been amended to remove the "on a scheduled service" qualification. It continues to apply to any aircraft of any type (not just jets).

[eu01]

On the other hand, you could argue that the more Russians citizens who are exposed to opinions other than the viewpoint of the state-controlled Russian media, the better for the world.
Generally, I doubt it. Over 20 years ago to my EU town came an immigrant from Russia. Being able to listen to our "Western" news she dos not believe a word. Her recent viewpoint: "I am so glad that Putin is putting an end to injustice in Ukraine now, will remove Nazis and save Russians from the hands of Ukrainian murderers". I'm not sure if a short holiday on Canaries would do anything better to re-shape such opinions.

Btw. Only four countries in the world have banned Russian flights by now. Is it enough?

[BA318]

Generally, I doubt it. Over 20 years ago to my EU town came an immigrant from Russia. Being able to listen to our "Western" news she dos not believe a word. Her recent viewpoint: "I am so glad that Putin is putting an end to injustice in Ukraine now, will remove Nazis and save Russians". I'm not sure if a short holiday on Canaries would do anything better to re-shape such opinions.

Btw. Only four countries in the world have banned Russian flights by now. Is it enough?

The EU is now banning the supply and leasing of aircraft to Russia. According to reports this could mean they lose half the planes operating in Russia at the moment.

[eye2eye5]

Excellent news. Assume this means that any leased aircraft operating outside Russia will be at risk of being impounded?

[AirportPlanner1]

On the other hand, you could argue that the more Russians citizens who are exposed to opinions other than the viewpoint of the state-controlled Russian media, the better for the world.

Other languages aren’t widely spoken in Russia. So in theory yes, in reality no because they aren’t going to be watching or reading.

[daz211]

Estonia 🇪🇪 has joined the list of countries banning Russian aircraft from its airspace.

[Wycombe]

Most of Aeroflot's fleet is Bermudan reg'd. Surely action can be taken (maybe it already is) to remove C of A's etc?

[pabely]

Most are leased, Aeocap a big player, being Irish based then if any planes hit EU soil then they could be impounded?

[eu01]

All three Baltic States have now joined the UK, Poland, Czechia and Bulgaria in banning Russia the access to their airspace. Locally it will mean e.g. traveling from Moscow to Königsberg (Kaliningrad) via Gulf of Finland.

Only came to my mind: would they dare to just ignore that and use the Lithuanian airspace in spite of that?

Right now I can see Aeroflot SU2467 flying to SVO via Germany (and still Lithuania), soon this flight too will have to use this Northern route.

Btw. Germany, wake up, do what you should have done already.

[BA318]

All three Baltic States have now joined the UK, Poland, Czechia and Bulgaria in banning Russia the access to their airspace. Locally it will mean e.g. traveling from Moscow to Königsberg (Kaliningrad) via Gulf of Finland.

Only came to my mind: would they dare to just ignore that and use the Lithuanian airspace in spite of that?

Right now I can see Aeroflot SU2467 flying to SVO via Germany (and still Lithuania), soon this flight too will have to use this Northern route.

Btw. Germany, wake up, do what you should have done already.

I don’t think anyone is stupid enough to start ignoring such restrictions. That way lies Russian planes being shot out the sky.

[DaveReidUK]

I don’t think anyone is stupid enough to start ignoring such restrictions. That way lies Russian planes being shot out the sky.

Quite so. The Baltic States' ban has been announced, but not yet implemented.

[LTNman]

Ukraine invasion: More countries issue airspace ban on Russian planes https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60539303

[daz211]

Some very interesting activity currently over Russian airspace, it looks like Lufthansa and DHL aircraft are being denied and are being turned around well into Russian airspace.

[TBSC]

LH Frankfurt-Tokyo turned around over Estonia and is now landing in Berlin. LH Munich-Seoul is returning to west from over Perm.

[daz211]

LH Frankfurt-Tokyo turned around over Estonia and is now landing in Berlin. LH Munich-Seoul is returning to west from over Perm.
DHL turned back and is currently over the Estonian border.

[LGS6753]

Even Russian domestic flights are now avoiding the Russian/Ukraine border area. The closest seem to be tracking between the Caspian Sea, Samara and Moscow.

[daz211]

I’ll put money on the whole of EU Airspace being closed to Russian aircraft with in the next 12-24 hrs.

[LTNman]

Germany talking of an airspace ban. Not bad for a country that has been weak on Russia. When Russians cannot head out of their country for their summer beach holidays then they will be directly impacted. So will Spain and particularly Italy and Turkey introduce a ban?

[NickBarnes]

Whole EU is expected to ban all Russian Flights/Aircraft very soon

[daz211]

Whole EU is expected to ban all Russian Flights/Aircraft very soon
I think they will wait until SU2549 TFS-SVO passes into Russian airspace, it is currently Between Spain and France and would have to land in the EU if not allowed to continue to SVO.

[eu01]

"Finland is preparing to close airspace from Russian air traffic."
Timo Harakka, Finnish Minister of Transport & Communications on Twitter today.

[Max Tow]

And yet Russian airlines with rich holidaymakers (no doubt with wallets full of $ rather than soon-to-be-worthless roubles) still apparently welcome in Canada & U.S.

Aeroflot110 currently en route to MIA, and others all day up & down the East Coast airways en route to/from Caribbean - most odd?

[LTNman]

Ukraine invasion: Russian planes face near-total airspace ban to west https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60539303

[daz211]

Ukraine invasion: Russian planes face near-total airspace ban to west https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60539303
I know it not the Russian people who invaded but I feel a bit uncomfortable seeing holiday makers from Russia jetting of to Spanish beaches at the same time Ukrainian people are sheltering in subways or fleeing the country.

[pabely]

Not just Spain. Egypt used to welcome Ukraine citizens but still the Russians, ok with extended routing, are arriving. I have seen the TUI wave often arrive, park up at Hungarda next to S7 arrivals. The potential for a flash point in the terminal let alone the hotel beaches.
Maybe the Russian planes are arriving empty, I don't know?

[chaps1954]

Especially when half of them don`t even know about it

[pabely]

Especially when half of them don`t even know about it
Yes, just watch Russia Today news channel. Shows this is a rescue mission by people who want them on Ukraine soil!

[daz211]

A few Russian aircraft returned to Russia mid flight.

SU2300 SVO-FRA.
U61867 ZIA-FNC.
SU6603 LED-VIE.

[daz211]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1125x1069/9825a04e_a6d5_4188_bfc5_3611377612ea_2c8806e3ecd8a3c172a5ec2 dd21775bf1b2c04bc.jpeg
This is the updated no fly zone for Russian aircraft updated 13.00 27/02/22.

[pabely]

Moldova stands out, no flights at all over the last couple of days, I think it is a NATO member but not EU but it does have the disputed Transnistria area held by Russia.
Then France, Spain dragging their heels.

[DC3 Dave]

Moldova stands out, no flights at all over the last couple of days, I think it is a NATO member but not EU but it does have the disputed Transnistria area held by Russia.
Then France, Spain dragging their heels.

Moldova is a neutral state.

[daz211]

Moldova stands out, no flights at all over the last couple of days, I think it is a NATO member but not EU but it does have the disputed Transnistria area held by Russia.
Then France, Spain dragging their heels.
France has just announced it will also close its airspace.

[Atlantic Explorer]

France has just announced it will also close its airspace.

A bit late to the party. Looking at the map above it’s a bit pointless anyway as there’s no route through from Russia.

[pabely]

I did note some flights out of Switzerland Moscow bound so it will hinder such flights.

[Pain in the R's]

Yes, just watch Russia Today news channel. Shows this is a rescue mission by people who want them on Ukraine soil!

Why would anyone watch Putin’s big lie TV channel?

[daz211]

Breaking News,
All Counties in European Union agree to close their Airspace to Russia 🇷🇺
(EU Commission).

[SealinkBF]

I’ll put money on the whole of EU Airspace being closed to Russian aircraft with in the next 12-24 hrs.

They've just announced it

[daz211]

CANADA 🇨🇦
Have just announced it will also close its airspace to Russia with immediate effect.

[daz211]

Aeroflot SU124 approaching Greenland 🇬🇱 routing SVO-JFK.

[renfrew]

Seems to be turning back now.

[pabely]

Why would anyone watch Putin’s big lie TV channel?
Unfortunately a few do.

[LGS6753]

I know it not the Russian people who invaded but I feel a bit uncomfortable seeing holiday makers from Russia jetting of to Spanish beaches at the same time Ukrainian people are sheltering in subways or fleeing the country.
The idea is to bring domestic pressure on Putin. By making Joe Russian aware of what his government has done, the argument is that Putin's position is weakened.

[Wycombe]

2 Aeroflot 350's currently in the Carribean area (PUJ, CUN) - will be interesting to see what happens to them

[daz211]

There is going to have to be a very complicated repatriation operation by the Russians to repatriate Russian citizens from many holidays destinations, for example the Canary Islands 🤔.

[BA318]

Aeroflot has announced they will suspend all flights to Europe from tomorrow.

[daz211]

Aeroflot has announced they will suspend all flights to Europe from tomorrow.
I think that decision was made for them today.
They have probably spun it to the Russian people that it’s their way to punishing the west.

[Pain in the R's]

So how did Aeroflot react to the immediate airspace ban from Canada? With the aid of Navcan AFL111 took no notice. Questions now being asked why.

[Max Tow]

2 Aeroflot 350's currently in the Carribean area (PUJ, CUN) - will be interesting to see what happens to them

The return ex CUN SU159 overflew the still friendly U.S. but not Canada, the PUJ kept to the East.

[pulse1]

This morning I noticed at least 11 A320 sized aircraft on the route from Moscow to Sochi, obviously extended to avoid Ukraine. I cannot believe that that is a normal level of traffic between those cities.

[BA318]

This morning I noticed at least 11 A320 sized aircraft on the route from Moscow to Sochi, obviously extended to avoid Ukraine. I cannot believe that that is a normal level of traffic between those cities.

Lots of airports in southern Russia are closed so traffic is being rerouted to Sochi. Rostov, Krasnodar and Voronezh among the closed airports so they used to get a lot of flights.

[DaveReidUK]

Even before the current fracas kicked off, there were around three dozen flights a day between SVO/DME/VKO and Sochi.

[DP.]

So how did Aeroflot react to the immediate airspace ban from Canada? With the aid of Navcan AFL111 took no notice. Questions now being asked why.

I'll be interested to see what the TC inquiry finds for this. They were certainly asked on first contact with Moncton Center whether they were aware of the NOTAM, and I have seen it said that they were also asked the same question by Boston prior to crossing the border.

[Atlantic Explorer]

Any word on those Wizz aircraft caught up at Kiev? They still on the ground there?

[TBSC]

Yes, they are.

[Sober Lark]

Yes, they are.
How many? Thanks

[davidjohnson6]

FR24 reckons HA-LWY, HA-LPJ and HA-LPM are in Kyiv Zhuliany and that HA-LWS is at Lviv

You can verify for yourself with the following links:
On the ground at Kyiv Zhuliany:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airports/iev/ground
On the ground at Lviv:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airports/lwo/ground

Or look at the following links to see recent history of individual aircraft
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ha-lwy
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ha-lpj
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ha-lpm
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ha-lws

[Sober Lark]

Thank you David

[Chesty Morgan]

SU7236 SVO to VRN, having been airborne for over 5 hours already is currently holding over Greece.

[Pain in the R's]

Now landing at Istanbul

[DP.]

SU7236 SVO to VRN, having been airborne for over 5 hours already is currently holding over Greece.

Diverting to IST. I don't understand what it was doing down there anyway given that the Italians closed their airspace at 1400Z yesterday.

[DaveReidUK]

SU7236 is an ad-hoc flight number. I wouldn't be surprised to find that it was never planned to go to Italy.

[davidjohnson6]

SU7236 is an ad-hoc flight number. I wouldn't be surprised to find that it was never planned to go to Italy.
Is that a polite way of saying this was Russia testing the EU to see if they really mean what they say about airspace closure, and whether the EU is willing to enforce the closure ?

[pabely]

With Irish lessors AerCap and SMBC Aviation wanting their hundreds of leased aircraft back then flying even internally in Russia is going to bite!

[ATNotts]

With Irish lessors AerCap and SMBC Aviation wanting their hundreds of leased aircraft back then flying even internally in Russia is going to bite!

Question is, how would they get them back?

[pabely]

Question for the lawyers, I don't know if some sort of bond is held in escrow?

[SotonFlightpath]

If the conflict escalates, I wouldn’t have thought there would be the remotest possibility that any of the leased aircraft would be returned to the leasing companies. The Russian regime almost certainly would not allow anyone into the country to reclaim them, and would probably destroy them rather than hand them back.

[Cunliffe]

Volga-Dnepra IL76 fro Moscow just overflew Poland and landed at Bratislava.
I wonder why?

[Curious Pax]

Volga-Dnepra IL76 fro Moscow just overflew Poland and landed at Bratislava.
I wonder why?

Slovakians have stated it was nuclear fuel, and permitted under the terms of the ban. Don’t know how often they take such deliveries, but if infrequently the timing was a bit unfortunate.

[daz211]

Who owns these aircraft, registered in Bermuda 🇧🇲 all flying now over the Atlantic.
If they are leased maybe this is the opportunity to get them back.

VP-BGK
VP-BJH
VQ-BZC
VQ-BZA

[Hartington]

Apparently a twitter account that has been following Elon Musk's plane has now taken to following Russian Oligarchs jets (https://twitter.com/RUOligarchJets)

[daz211]

I read earlier that Aleksej Mordasjov a (Russian Oligarchs) is a major share holder in TUI.

[pabely]

Apparently a twitter account that has been following Elon Musk's plane has now taken to following Russian Oligarchs jets (https://twitter.com/RUOligarchJets)
Good on him, they won't like that!

[davidjohnson6]

I think Russian oligarchs may not be quite so understanding as Elon Musk

[DP.]

Who owns these aircraft, registered in Bermuda 🇧🇲 all flying now over the Atlantic.
If they are leased maybe this is the opportunity to get them back.

VP-BGK
VP-BJH
VQ-BZC
VQ-BZA

Three of them are AerCap, not sure on the other one (BJH)

[Hartington]

The Russian Oligarchs twitter feed has me wondering? All this fuss about closing airspace then you look at that feed and planes are still flying (but not in closed airspace?). Do "the authorities" know that a lot of western made Russian aircraft are registered outside Russia?

[DaveReidUK]

The Russian Oligarchs twitter feed has me wondering? All this fuss about closing airspace then you look at that feed and planes are still flying (but not in closed airspace?).

I'm not familiar with that particular Twitter feed, but I wouldn't have thought that Russians flying around in airspace that isn't closed to them was particularly noteworthy.

[DP.]

Do "the authorities" know that a lot of western made Russian aircraft are registered outside Russia?

Yes. Hence, for example, the UK NOTAM;...NO AIRCRAFT WHICH IS OWNED, CHARTERED OR OPERATED BY A
PERSON CONNECTED WITH RUSSIA, OR WHICH IS REGISTERED IN RUSSIA SHALL
FLY IN UNITED KINGDOM AIRSPACE, INCLUDING IN THE AIRSPACE ABOVE THE
UNITED KINGDOM'S TERRITORIAL SEA...

Other countries have similar formulations in their NOTAMs.

[STN Ramp Rat]

So how are CARGOLOGICAIR still flying out of the UK then?

[LGS6753]

If the non-Russian-built aircraft in use in Russia were subject to a spares embargo, Russian civil aviation would quickly slow down. Is this likely?

[davidjohnson6]

Iran managed to keep its Boeing aircraft going for many many years while the US applied maximum sanctions. If Iran can find a way to keep aircraft in the skies, I imagine Russia can do so as well, and more effectively

[ATNotts]

If the non-Russian-built aircraft in use in Russia were subject to a spares embargo, Russian civil aviation would quickly slow down. Is this likely?

Now Russia is essentially limited to operating internally along with international connections to the likes of China, DPRK and Cuba (though how they get to the latter without flying through airspace closed to them I can't readily see!) they ought to have plenty of grounded western equipment which they could cannibalise to keep a core fleet in the air, and that's before they start thinking about bringing 134s, 154s and IL62s back into service - supposing there are that many still extant that could be brought back to operational condition.

(OK I don't know if any of the former USSR nations - e.g. Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, etc. have banned Russian airlines)

[ericlday]

Boeing announced on Tuesday that it would be pulling support for all Russian aircraft.This includes sales of spare parts and maintenance support for Russian Airlines, the biggest of which is Aeroflot, Russias flag carrier. The airline operates a fleet of 37 737s and 22 777s.

The company also said it would be temporarily closing its office in Kyiv. The pulling of support comes as tensions and sanctions escalate in the ongoing conflict between Russia and Ukraine.

[Economics101]

FR 24 is currently (c 1330 in UK/Ireland) showing 2 Antonov 124 near Constanta, Romania. One outbound and one inbound, both passing 16,000 ft. Both have Ukranian registration , and are flagged as Antonov Airlines. Any more info about Antonov Airlines continuing operations?

[DaveReidUK]

FR 24 is currently (c 1330 in UK/Ireland) showing 2 Antonov 124 near Constanta, Romania. One outbound and one inbound, both passing 16,000 ft. Both have Ukranian registration , and are flagged as Antonov Airlines. Any more info about Antonov Airlines continuing operations?

Most of ADB's business is outside Ukraine (only 2 of their 7 An-124s are stuck at Gostomel). No reason for them to have ceased operations.

[WillFlyForCheese]

Civil ATC is not a police service, any flight entering your airspace with a flight plan will be given service, what happens afterwards is a matter for the authorities after landing. There are more worrying things happening right now than worrying if one Aeroflot aircraft is entering an FIR supposedly not being allowed into .We should be far more worried about the Western aircraft currently taking shortcuts around Ukrainian airspace when hell will break loose.

Like KAL007? MH17? Sometimes hostile countries that are trigger happy take care of the perceived threat before landing.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Most of ADB's business is outside Ukraine (only 2 of their 7 An-124s are stuck at Gostomel). No reason for them to have ceased operations.
The AN-225 and AN-22 were both at Hostomel for maintenance. The AN-225 has sustained damage, severity unknown as yet. Status of AN-22 is unknown at this time. Hope this helps

[Aero Mad]

Japan's JAL, ANA cancel or reroute Europe flights due to Ukraine crisishttps://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/japans-jal-ana-cancel-all-flights-europe-thursday-2022-03-03/

[daz211]

Sabre Has announced its “cutting off” Aeroflot’s technology.
Sabre is removing Aeroflot’s flight content from its global distribution systems, making it almost impossible to sell tickets.

[pabely]

Amadeos have as well.

[pabely]

Some silly prices for flights from neighbouring countries further west now. Ryanair & Wizz will be happy.

[DP.]

Some silly prices for flights from neighbouring countries further west now. Ryanair & Wizz will be happy.

Wizz have offered up to 100,000 free seats from Poland, Romania, Hungary and Slovakia for refugees.

[SWBKCB]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-02/ryanair-wizz-join-ukraine-relief-push-with-aid-refugee-flights


Ryanair Holdings Plc (https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/RYA:ID) said it will help airlift medical supplies bound for Ukraine, while fellow discounter Wizz Air Holdings Plc (https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/WIZZ:LN) has offered 100,000 free tickets to refugees once they reach neighboring countries.

[SealinkBF]

Sabre Has announced its “cutting off” Aeroflot’s technology.
Sabre is removing Aeroflot’s flight content from its global distribution systems, making it almost impossible to sell tickets.

Well done Sabre!

[pabely]

S7 worried about frames being seized?https://simpleflying.com/russian-s7-suspend-all-international-flights-airspace-bans/

[Hartington]

Travelport and Amadeus have also stopped handling Aeroflot bookings but I'm a little confused. For a start there are other Russian airlines like S7 - I've not seen anything about anyone other than Aeroflot.

Then there's the Sabre PSS which is used by Aeroflot (which systems do other Russian airlines use - I think S7 use Amadeus Altea?). The Sabre release only talks about their GDS so are Aeroflot still using the Sabre PSS?

[BA318]

Travelport and Amadeus have also stopped handling Aeroflot bookings but I'm a little confused. For a start there are other Russian airlines like S7 - I've not seen anything about anyone other than Aeroflot.

Then there's the Sabre PSS which is used by Aeroflot (which systems do other Russian airlines use - I think S7 use Amadeus Altea?). The Sabre release only talks about their GDS so are Aeroflot still using the Sabre PSS?

Yes. They are still using the PSS. The Loganair CEO commented on LinkedIn about how it was a PR stunt by Sabre considering they still allowed this.

S7 had an A320 impounded in Yerevan and suspended all international flights. Now all airlines with leased planes have been ordered to do so.

Aeroflot has been the main target because it is partly state owned and very much gets state support.

[Lance Shippey]

S7 airlines announce on 5th March that it is cancelling all International flights. It is said that 100 of its 105 a/c are currently leased from Western lessors. S7 is the second largest airline in Russia. 777 of 980 pax a/c in Russia are on lease. E.U. sanctions state that leasing companies must terminate contracts with Russian carriers over the next weeks. Many of the a/c are leased through Irish leasing companies. Sabre is taking immediate steps to remove Aeroflot flight content from the GDS. and Amadeus has begun suspending distribution of State backed fares in its system. Putin was shown yesterday at a brunch with newly qualified Aeroflot stewardesses at the SU training centre outside Moscow. I wonder if he told them to enjoy their sole international route to Minsk.? Good luck to all the pax claiming their money back for cancelled Russian carrier flights.

Lance Shippey

[Mr Mac]

A number of home bound Russians from the Caribbean are going to have longer routes home. I noticed on flight radar 24 a number routing between Iceland and Greenland then around North Cape to Moscow and St Petersburg.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[Wycombe]

A number of home bound Russians from the Caribbean are going to have longer routes home. I noticed on flight radar 24 a number routing between Iceland and Greenland then around North Cape to Moscow and St Petersburg
There were still some going the other way when I looked yesterday, to places like Havana, Varadero, Punta Cana and Porlamar

[pabely]

Probally only moping up those who are left.
Currently Egypt which used to have a good flow of Russian tourists to Red Sea resorts, today has a couple of 777 & 747s only. Again I suspect only picking up pax.
It will become quite obvious soon as the hotels which catered for Russian tourists mainly empty out.

[VLCfkight]

i see that Azul are routing their central Russian flights (Yekaterinburg) to the Dominican Republic out over Turkey, along the southern mediterranean coast with a stop-over in Agadir, presumably for fuel, before heading across the Dominican Republic, whilst there Moscow flights head north before flying down the Atlantic - seem to have several aircraft airborne at the moment. Wonder if these are flying outbound empty as the new restrictions placed by Mastercard and Visa will make it extremely difficult for Russian's to travel overseas.

I wonder how Azul are managing to pay for their fuel (suitcases full of dollar notes?) and whether any of the leasing companies will soon start to seize these aircraft when they are at foreign airports as most of their fleet are leased?

[Lance Shippey]

DXB Arr/Dep boards interesting for flts from / to DME / VKO / SVO.
Lance Shippey

[FFHKG]

interesting article in the Financial Times about the various Aircraft Leasing company's exposure in the Russian market with most airlines leasing their aircraft from Western countries

https://www.ft.com/content/9a24a4b3-a3fa-4a37-b783-cbe393461473

[Lance Shippey]

I would be interested to learn how many leased Boeing and Airbus a/c have been : 1. Seized outside Russia. 2. Returned to the lessors voluntarily ? 3. Remaining in Russia with non intention of the lessee returning them ?
Lance Shippey

[BA318]

I would be interested to learn how many leased Boeing and Airbus a/c have been : 1. Seized outside Russia. 2. Returned to the lessors voluntarily ? 3. Remaining in Russia with non intention of the lessee returning them ?
Lance Shippey

According to this article Russia has “lost 78 planes to being seized overseas”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/russia-offers-to-buy-out-jetliner-fleet-from-foreign-lessors/ar-AAVnfTS?ocid=entnewsntp

[davidjohnson6]

I would be interested to learn how many leased Boeing and Airbus a/c have been : 1. Seized outside Russia. 2. Returned to the lessors voluntarily ? 3. Remaining in Russia with non intention of the lessee returning them ?
Lance Shippey
This blog post may be interesting - https://about.ch-aviation.com/blog/2022/03/17/an-overview-of-russian-aircraft-outside-of-russia/

[Lance Shippey]

Dear BA318 and David Johnson,
Thanks so much for the attachments, very interesting..
Lance Shippey.

[pabely]

Doesn't seem right that Turkey signs deal with Russian tour operators to ship Russian tourists to Turkey and set up a new joint airline.
Sit in Turkish sun while comrades are kill Ukraine citizens.
Don't think I will be supporting Turkish tourism this Summer!

[ATNotts]

Turkey takes a different stance from most of NATO, that is their choice.

If I were a Russian tourist I would be quite concerned about how other holiday makers might react to me whilst I was on my jollies.

[Lance Shippey]

Pabely and ATNotts,
Much time in Turkey from the 90's 'NOT AGAIN' I think searching where your new washing machine, cooker and oven are coming from should be accessed. MANY European brands are manufactured in Turkey.

Where are the Grandchildren of Putin ? and do they possess Second E.U passports e.g. "D" or "N.L". ? Why not photographs ?

Lance

[LGS6753]

Even your Ford Transit is now made in Turkey, thanks to the EU offering incentives to Ford to move production from Southampton (when we were in the EU!). With friends like that.....

[Lance Shippey]

Also Renault ,Fiat Chrysler ,Toyota and Hyundai.
L.S.