Jets in low flying shock horror!

[Tashengurt]

Beeb reporting that several people were upset by low flying F15s.


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60082431

[Wetstart Dryrun]

As our German lady PRO at gutersloh used to ask in response to a noise complaint....

So no red stars on them?

[kenparry]

500ft? I thought you said low flying!

[esscee]

That is "the Sound of Freedom", enjoy it while we can!

[B Fraser]

I would like to complain that I have not seen any F-15s over my property for some time. The C-130s and Merlins are very welcome but I do like a bit of variety.

[meleagertoo]

I'm not surprised people were shocked to see USAF at 500ft. I had no idea they could fly so "low".

[Doctor Cruces]

I'm not surprised people were shocked to see USAF at 500ft. I had no idea they could fly so "low".
Obviously not seen the 15s in the Mach Loop then!

[Old-Duffer]

"Jet Noise the Sound of Freedom" brings back memories from the mid 80s.
I bought a couple of stickers with that information boldly displayed, however, I was posted to Brampton and was visited one day by OC Police Flt. As per normal for those times, he didn't politely suggest I removed the sticker for security reasons but went straight for the throat with "Remove that sticker before you go home Sir, or we'll ban your car as of tomorrow".
When my wife retired and we gave up our MQ at Cottesmore, I took a house at Brampton - guess who my next door neighbour was?! He was quite nice socially and owned a German Shepherd Dog so he couldn't have been all that awful!

Old Duffer

[trim it out]

"We all thought we were being bombed"
"Thought the world was ending and life flashed before my eyes"

Get in the sea.

[Tashengurt]

"Jet Noise the Sound of Freedom" brings back memories from the mid 80s.
I bought a couple of stickers with that information boldly displayed, however, I was posted to Brampton and was visited one day by OC Police Flt. As per normal for those times, he didn't politely suggest I removed the sticker for security reasons but went straight for the throat with "Remove that sticker before you go home Sir, or we'll ban your car as of tomorrow".
When my wife retired and we gave up our MQ at Cottesmore, I took a house at Brampton - guess who my next door neighbour was?! He was quite nice socially and owned a German Shepherd Dog so he couldn't have been all that awful!

Old Duffer

What exactly was his issue with them? (Acknowledging that reasoning wasn't a strong RAFP trait!)

[MPN11]

I guess Jock McPublic is lucky he didn’t live in East Anglia in the 70s, when the sky was full of fast-jet metal.

Tempus fugit … I guess the drama of a ‘low’ FJ has faded from common memory. Thank the Lord there are still some FJs left to frighten the children, the chickens and the emotionally insecure.

[wiggy]

I guess Jock McPublic is lucky he didn’t live in East Anglia in the 70s, when the sky was full of fast-jet metal.

Tempus fugit … I guess the drama of a ‘low’ FJ has faded from common memory. Thank the Lord there are still some FJs left to frighten the children, the chickens and the emotionally insecure.

Very much agree…I was brought up/went to school in late 60s/early 70s under the centre line a link route (anybody remember those and the smaller LFAs that went with them) between LFA 7 (Wales) and LFA 4 ( Shropshire/Worcestershire)…….on the good days it was a FJ overhead every ten or fifteen minutes….

Youth of today..paah….

[BEagle]

Anybody remember those and the smaller LFAs that went with them?

Yes indeed! The link route from the east, through LFA 4 and into LFA 7 was known as the Ho Chi Minh Trail! I flew that many times!!

[NutLoose]

Startled the poo out of my mate in Stirling.

[MPN11]

Startled the poo out of my mate in Stirling.
Aww, poor wee thing! There are bogles about … run away to the hills! 😀

[reds & greens]

Obviously not seen the 15s in the Mach Loop then!
From the (now limited), number of frames passing through LFA7, the USAF F-15 are consistently higher than others...

[ACW599]

Well, the USAF might have been able to find somewhere the size of Glasgow but I bet they could never find N52.7292 W002.9954.

[Dan Gerous]

I think they were LL all over SE Scotland that night, they were making a bit of noise over the Borders. Wish they had done it in daylight, it would have been nice to see, even better if they put in an appearance in the Selkirk- Moffat valley now and again.

[Bill Macgillivray]

Oh dear, is this really a problem?

Bill

[treadigraph]

Dear Sir, I wish to complain that the two F-15s which buzzed Tavistock on Friday lunchtime and startled the tinkle out of Aunty Flo weren't low enough as we didn't see them. I mean, what is the point of us paying all those tax dollars if our Yankee cousins can't have a proper go at scaring the bejazus out of our wrinkly old relatives...

(Two F-15s over Tavistock on Friday is true; I confess, under duress, to making up the rest including the complaint... )

[TheOddOne]

"While we take maximum care to avoid overpopulated areas

That's the whole planet, now. David Attenborough reckons that the World population has tripled in the time he's been making nature programmes...

TOO

[langleybaston]

Stationed a Finningley, still a V Force dispersal, and living in Bessacarr Doncaster, the 0400 scramble or two sounded like an insurance policy. The country believed in the sound of freedom in those days.

On reflection, about half the Met. Office of Finningley and Bawtry lived in Bessacarr or thereabouts.

[First_In_Last_Out]

Idiots. All of them. And that includes the “journos” who even bothered reporting on a non event.

[VX275]

Very much agree…I was brought up/went to school in late 60s/early 70s under the centre line a link route (anybody remember those and the smaller LFAs that went with them) between LFA 7 (Wales) and LFA 4 ( Shropshire/Worcestershire)…….on the good days it was a FJ overhead every ten or fifteen minutes….

Youth of today..paah….

I remember those days well. Especially keeping an eye out for the A10's that would roll in to 'attack' the tractor I was driving across my sisters Worcestershire farm.

[Tengah Type]

Probably the only thing of interest to happen in Scotland all that day!!

[falcon900]

Simply a lack of public awareness of what it takes to protect the nation, which surely Channel 5 could remedy effortlessly "Warplane - Life in the Air"? Simples!

[Bob Viking]

Let me first add some perspective. I love low flying. It’s awesome. It’s the most fun you can have whilst flying and I still get to do it regularly in some incredible terrain and I will never get bored of doing it.

Sadly low flying just isn’t the panacea it used to be in terms of a tactic. Therefore we just don’t need to practise it as much as we used to. That means you won’t see low level jets as regularly as you used to. That’s sad but it’s just the way it is.

The British Army no longer practise cavalry charges or fighting squares any more. The RN probably don’t practise 50 gun broadsides either. That’s because military tactics evolve.

As much as I’d love to see the RAF/RN/USAF wazzing round the Welsh/Cumbrian/Scottish hills all day every day it’s just not as necessary as it once was. And watching jets on FR24 (I know they don’t show up on FR24 - I’m being facetious) cranking/notching/aborting in D323 just doesn’t compare in terms of pure excitement.

BV

[OvertHawk]

BV...

Careful with your talking sense - You'll get moderated!!! ;):ok:

[Timelord]

This was night low level. Does this indicate a renewed interest in the F15E night TF capability that has been allowed to wither for several years iaw BV’s explanation? Maybe LL is coming back into fashion?

And I wouldn’t be so sure about the army and cavalry charges if I were you!

[langleybaston]

I remember those days well. Especially keeping an eye out for the A10's that would roll in to 'attack' the tractor I was driving across my sisters Worcestershire farm.
and approaching the Lincoln edge below edge height and startling the sh1t out of drivers where the A15 [?] S to N is near the edge. Brown trouser moment.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Let me first add some perspective. I love low flying. It’s awesome. It’s the most fun you can have whilst flying and I still get to do it regularly in some incredible terrain and I will never get bored of doing it.

Sadly low flying just isn’t the panacea it used to be in terms of a tactic. Therefore we just don’t need to practise it as much as we used to. That means you won’t see low level jets as regularly as you used to. That’s sad but it’s just the way it is.

The British Army no longer practise cavalry charges or fighting squares any more. The RN probably don’t practise 50 gun broadsides either. That’s because military tactics evolve.

As much as I’d love to see the RAF/RN/USAF wazzing round the Welsh/Cumbrian/Scottish hills all day every day it’s just not as necessary as it once was. And watching jets on FR24 (I know they don’t show up on FR24 - I’m being facetious) cranking/notching/aborting in D323 just doesn’t compare in terms of pure excitement.

BV

Now now BV, that's very fixed wing centric isn't it! Go rotary and you can low fly all you like (subject to serviceability!)

[NutLoose]

The question should be why now?

Practising for places East of here? ;)

[Ninthace]

I remember bimbling along the Kirkstone Pass in a gyrocopter and being advised to keep well to the right as the fast jets used the bit in the middle. Or the time over Shobdon in K8 unable to do much to get out of the way of a couple of approaching FJs on account of the Harrier passing underneath me, I just increased the bank angle so they could see the wing flash.

[Bob Viking]

On a thread specifically about low flying jets I felt that this could be a designated safe space. Obviously low flying in helicopters still retains a certain tactical relevance (necessity!).

Also, as I mentioned, I still get plenty of LL flying but it’s not all about me.

BV

[DogTailRed2]

In the current climate I would be more alarmed by low flying Migs.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

On a thread specifically about low flying jets I felt that this could be a designated safe space. Obviously low flying in helicopters still retains a certain tactical relevance (necessity!).

Also, as I mentioned, I still get plenty of LL flying but it’s not all about me.

BV
Nowhere is safe.....!

[ShyTorque]

Aah, the old Cold War days in West G. when our exercise Air Control Orders required us rotary chaps to fly "not ABOVE 150 feet AGL", to give us a buffer altitude from the jets who were supposed to be not BELOW 250 feet AGL.. Interesting when the HT pylons were up to 300 feet AGL....

The locals were often not too impressed. but I suppose they were more used to it then than today.

[Maoraigh1]

Just an 80 year old civvie. Today at 15.27, 3 medium size light grey helicopters, in formation, passed me on the beach ~12 NM east of Lossie. No roundels, no star of any colour, no script showing. No complaint.

[MPN11]

Stationed a Finningley, still a V Force dispersal, and living in Bessacarr Doncaster, the 0400 scramble or two sounded like an insurance policy. The country believed in the sound of freedom in those days.I remember vividly the last 1Gp mass survival scramble of Vulcans from WAD and SCA. A lovely sunny day, as both stations launched everything they had … each departing on their 4 designated fan-tracks in turn … Track 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4 … it went on and on and on, smoke trails from both sets of tracks clearly defined in the N. Lincs sky. And the County vibrated from the roar of both Wings launching for several minutes. How many launched? No idea, but there were lots of them!

I never heard of any noise complaints in circulation.

[langleybaston]

Damn!

Dust and grit in my eye ..............

[Thrust Augmentation]

LFA14(t) was a great place to grow up & there was always a surprisingly wide variety of aircraft from numerous countries to see. If it wasn't for the occasional duo or trio of F-15E's these days, there would be less than nothing now.

[Hydromet]

Living in suburban Sydney, we were treated on a couple of consecutive Saturday afternoons to a Pitts Special & a Cessna playing Snoopy & the Red Baron. Almost all the comments on the local FB page were +ve except for a couple of people who didn't think it was a good place to do aerobatics. (They weren't, just some tight turns.) Turns out, they had all the appropriate clearances and were over the home of one of the pilots.
Then again, if the rescue or police helicopter is around for any length of time, (common here, as there are often lost or injured hikers), we have complaints.

[Gooey]

BV, is the old rule-of-thumb no longer valid, of everyone except OCA/DCA going LL if there is a REDAIR threat? Especially, if sausage side with SA-20 etc around? ... and you are a Herc ... or non-Stealth aeroplane?

[Bob Viking]

The old idea of having pure strikers is what has changed. Every fighter nowadays carries Fox3s so they do not want to be hanging around at LL. They will be part of the OCA, then swing to drop their bombs and go back to being OCA again.

There is still a requirement to have the pure flying skill to operate safely in a LL environment (just ask the RCAF what happens when you pretend you are competent at LL flying) but the idea of pure low level fighter strike missions is now a thing of the past. Remember as well with modern SAMs the idea of getting in under the radar is just not feasible any more. Yes I know we should never say never but when you can’t do everything you prioritise the things that you are most likely to do.

As for Hercs etc at low level, you’re going to have to think very carefully before you put them into a contested environment especially when there are modern SAMs about.

BV

[EESDL]

Utter Tosh - they were nearer 250', or atleast they were earlier in the day ;-) The beauty of living on the NE corner of the LBA zone enroute to The Lakes from Suffolk :-)
Happy Days

[cliver029]

There is the "remains" of an LFA over the back of my place and a real assortment of aircraft used to use it. An example was every Monday morning a pair of A10's doing lazy 8's over the village school, nobody minded. There also used to be a large chimney where all the aircraft running along the LFA would make a sharp turn over it and head north.
it's gone now replaced by some very expensive houses and the odd Apache ( or two ) heading west, so sad

[SnowFella]

Grew up with the parents owning a summer house in what must of been a Swedish LFA, from memory there even was an off the grid airbase not far from there, and not once did I feel like I was about to get bombed when getting surprised by some Viggen's, SK60's or the odd Draken roared by at "I can count rivets" heights!

[b263354]

Have to agree with the complaint, used to live and work near Soesterberg, and it was every so now and then those snotty nosed jet teens having a jolly ride opening up that afterburner, or some high placed whatevere necessitated a small 'flight show' again with afterburners and all. do it above the north sea, away from public places. Sick of everything trembling including windows etc, just to have a second, and wowy dowy, sometimes even jee a third teenager in tail playing catch up. I'm an aviation fan and like watching them, but not where I live with animals. Not needed, save for a QRT...

[Gooey]

Thanks Bob. Appreciate your insight here.

Noting how small RAF force is now, I had wondered about the multi-role concept. I had mistakenly assumed the AAM on attackers were more for self defence.It does surprise me still: I understood that IAF are approaching LL from west Lebanon IOT avoid radar & C2/SAM & reduce reaction time from the target areas; also, that the mighty Typhoon has enough power and fuel to do OCA/DCA, launch a couple of Storm Shadows, and re-role back.

Agree entirely about slow movers. As for Hercs & SH etc at LL, it always is a careful balance b/w planning risk and mission. That's why you train at LL, good intelligence, blah blah. To support the customers.

[langleybaston]

Would current flyers care to comment on whether Met. has kept pace with operational demand and changing needs? Especially low level?

As an ex-professional I have a nasty feeling that, whereas the RAF were THE customers on whom we focussed, to good or bad effect, the Met. Office now sees the military need as a bit of a side-show. I hope not.

"the older I get the better I used to be" applies of course.

[newt]

Best way to see Scotland…….. one hundred feet doing 500 kts!👍👍👍

[trim it out]

Would current flyers care to comment on whether Met. has kept pace with operational demand and changing needs? Especially low level?

As an ex-professional I have a nasty feeling that, whereas the RAF were THE customers on whom we focussed, to good or bad effect, the Met. Office now sees the military need as a bit of a side-show. I hope not.

"the older I get the better I used to be" applies of course.
Check AeroWeather, look at Windy and look out the window. Does the job.

[langleybaston]

'twas ever thus!

[Wetstart Dryrun]

I loved the map with colour state tags hanging from hooks...

Bit short of hooks these days?

[langleybaston]

I can cap that.

Met Office JHQ RAFG's first attempt at using magnetic smarties RED AMB YLO GRN WHT BLU on a map of NW Europe failed to note that the back-plate for the large wall map was non-ferrous. Just before my time there.

The C Met O [whose invention it was] was apparently displeased. The staff delighted.

It took a junior assistant to diagnose the problem, it was said.

Thereafter the board worked well, although labour intensive, bridging the gap to the computer age.

[Wetstart Dryrun]

But you only need yellow in Germany.

[Wetstart Dryrun]

Sorry, and yellow 2 for the target area

[langleybaston]

Sorry, and yellow 2 for the target area

YLO 2 was never an official construct except within the customers. We never called it, and never forecast it.

BLK was added by ATC as an option but, again, we never used it.

[ShyTorque]

At Gutersloh in winter we could have yellow colour states lasting for weeks. We used to launch and “grobble” our way around when it went up from colour state red (no flying).

One snowy day, during a colour state red, we heard on the squadron that a certain Puma (U.K. based but not the usual squadron) on a mission had just called up for a refuel but it had been denied landing request due to the airfield weather state. The crew insisted that they urgently needed to come in for fuel but were then informed that the station commander had been consulted and had personally denied them landing permission at his airfield. A short time later a Puma appeared out of the snow and landed on the sports field just across the public road, outside the main gate. The crew marched across to the guard room and requested the use of a telephone for a call to U.K. A very short time later the Station Commander received a mainly one way telephone call from a certain office back in Blighty, after which a bowser was sent across the road in very short order and the Puma soon continued on its merry way.

Stumblefingers might be able to confirm or correct my recollection.

[Wetstart Dryrun]

Thread drift continues....... ( But it is jetblast )

YLO 2. Had a place in life...

Not so good for a white instrument rating
Not so good for a weather diversion ( 1 GRN or 2 YLO 1)

Not so good for a run in and break

Good indicator of forthcoming beer, as in divs dropped to YLO 2.
.
You shouldn't have mentioned black.. maybe better memories than mine could confirm
BLK 1. Crash cat 0
BLK 2 ice and snow
BLk 3. Crosswinds
BLK 4. Unpublished shut for party, siesta etc

Ok, I made the last one up
Oh dear, not jetblast.... Time for medication

[Alchad]

From the (now limited), number of frames passing through LFA7, the USAF F-15 are consistently higher than others...

The key word in your statement is "consistently" and having been taking photographs in the Mach Loop for the past 12 years, I have to say you're right, However some F !5 pilots can still pass muster......this from last week in the Loophttps://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/461a0358red_659e4f26bab858c734faf0641ec8fb75072743dd.jpg

and some of the 495th Valkaries made a creditable first attempt.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/461a0142red_595f52758788443a3bb16fada97ce8d02fe07f53.jpg

Alchad
. .

[langleybaston]

At Gutersloh in winter we could have yellow colour states lasting for weeks. We used to launch and “grobble” our way around when it went up from colour state red (no flying).

A short time later a Puma appeared out of the snow and landed on the sports field just across the public road, outside the main gate. The crew marched across to the guard room and requested the use of a telephone for a call to U.K. A very short time later the Station Commander received a mainly one way telephone call from a certain office back in Blighty, after which a bowser was sent across the road in very short order and the Puma soon continued on its merry way.

Stumblefingers might be able to confirm or correct my recollection.

Sure enough, there is a football field showing on Google Earth. I lived a stone's throw further East, in Zeppelinstrasse, easy walk through side gate to Mess and work, easy stumble home.

[ShyTorque]

Sure enough, there is a football field showing on Google Earth. I lived a stone's throw further East, in Zeppelinstrasse, easy walk through side gate to Mess and work, easy stumble home.

Langley, I know that the football field exists. I was based at Gutersloh at the time….

[langleybaston]

Best place to be: easily my favourite tour, easily the most difficult for Met forecasting. Fortunately the customers were clever enough or resigned enough to accept the cockups.

There was a very noisy bar between Zep Strasse and the field: it played Puppet on a string** full volume well into the night.

** or something of that ilk.

[SLXOwft]

Do these Caledonians not know they are living in the McLoop?

I am of course biased but I miss the brief exposure to the sound of freedom that is a passing FJ. Nearest thing we get to a lowish one round here these days is the Sparrows on their way to/from Goodwood for the Festival of Speed (met men conditions permitting).

I suspect the moaners would be even more irritated by a low A400 rattling the windows like we had a few weeks back. Usual that's Odiham's finest:ok: arriving what feels like 15 minutes after first 'wok' being heard :E (I suspect some of my neighbours grump about the late evening ones) but they're rapid compared to the Merlin that distracted me from my gardening for some time on Sunday crawling by sounding like it was diesel powered (probably a CHF one but my 90° view across the roofline obscured the presence or absence of Blue Kestrel). :8

[blimey]

The thing is, if you can do it at low level, especially in dodgy weather, medium level is a breeze. So train for the most difficult scenario. And it's the most fun.

[Bob Viking]

Can you define what ‘it’ is? If you mean practice dropping bombs from the last century in a contested air environment then yes low level is good. But ‘it’ doesn’t work that way any more. The role of modern fast jets is not one that happens at medium level just because it’s easier. It’s done at medium level because that is where the tactics and the weapons dictate that they can be most effective and survivable. Practicing their modern role at low level would be pointless.

During flying training there is definite value for low level as a training tool and a way of assessing and developing mental capacity. That doesn’t mean it will ever have any application in a modern conflict.

There are of course times that certain A-G weapons may need to released with a visual line of sight which may require a FJ to get below the cloud which is why some LL training is still done, but it is nothing like the old fashioned four ship 45/60 second splits from the good old days.

BV