A VERY close call for this pilot in Pacoima CA

[India Four Two]

A Cessna 172H had an engine failure after takeoff from Whiteman Airport and ended up on railway tracks. Great work by LAPD officers getting the pilot out before the train arrived.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1676x938/screen_shot_2022_01_09_at_9_20_46_pm_2af4fdf0e40f1445e1bd87a 34aaff54e24930957.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JMlX3m0u0o

Another view of the really close call:

https://abc7.com/pacoima-plane-down-crash-metrolink-train-video-of-pilot-being-saved/11447057/


He almost made it:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1553x1329/screen_shot_2022_01_09_at_9_42_42_pm_copy_a1c72cbac1397dcac0 c291e82aad57ddfd594df9.jpg

[mickjoebill]

Light plane crashes onto a railway crossing, in California, Twitter has police bodycam footage of the rescue of pilot just 5 seconds before a train ploughs into the wreckage.

Police bodycam
https://twitter.com/LAPDHQ/status/1480363436311670784?t=-ztPqir8JkVGI3dchmuuXA&s=19

bystander ducks wreckage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp1VM_iFDys

[Magnetomick]

Cool heads there by LAPD, that was close.

[hunbet]

It was reported he did an emergency landing on the tracks. Airplane was complete except for the damage caused when the nose gear eventually touched down on the crossties.

Should make for an interesting NTSB investigation. Do they have to call in railroad experts and aircraft experts ?

[Less Hair]

Very brave policemen.

[DaveReidUK]

Kudos to the first responders.

One wonders, though, whether there had been any attempt (presumably unsuccessful) to pull the Cessna, which appeared to be still on its mainwheels, out of the path of the train before extricating the pilot.

While the train obviously wasn't in any danger from hitting the aircraft, the bystanders certainly were:

Train Crashes into Plane - Whiteman Airport Pacoima, California [WARNING: GRAPHIC FOOTAGE] - YouTube

[mickjoebill]

6 seconds before the train hit, he was still behind the control column...

Mjb

[Alan Baker]

Looks like a great place for an airport, any kind of problem results in ploughing into buildings or a busy rail line.

[FUMR]

Very well done those LAPD officers. That took a great deal of courage and they are true heroes. I trust that they will get the recognition they fully deserve!

[340drvr]

Looks like a great place for an airport, any kind of problem results in ploughing into buildings or a busy rail line.
Totally valid point, But, Whiteman is certainly not the only airport, small GA or airline, to be situated like that. The LA area, like many other spots around the world, has many of those "small" GA-only aerodromes that were originally built outside the city limits, are now surrounded by urban sprawl and congestion.

[TWT]

Bravo LAPD ! :D:D:D

[OPENDOOR]

Very well done those LAPD officers. That took a great deal of courage and they are true heroes. I trust that they will get the recognition they fully deserve!

Possibly the time spent stringing yellow tape might have been better employed moving the aircraft out of the path of the train?

[muppetdodger]

Possibly the time spent stringing yellow tape might have been better employed moving the aircraft out of the path of the train?
I was thinking that, the fact that the tape is up, all the rescue services are parked up on the other side of the crossing and people are stood videoing, why on earth didn't someone get the train stopped up the line. Seems a bit odd to me tbh. You'd think as soon as the plane crashes the tower and or police would tell the railroad company to stop all trains.

[NutLoose]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/lapd-plane-crash-video-train-los-angeles-police-b975773.html

Bodycam there

[Pilot DAR]

why on earth didn't someone get the train stopped up the line. Seems a bit odd to me tbh. You'd think as soon as the plane crashes the tower and or police would tell the railroad company to stop all trains.

'Depends of course, on how close the train is! That said, in my capacity as a fire fighter in Canada, I've had to stop a few trains over the years for interference on the tracks. I was instructed by a rail company official that short circuiting the rails to each other near the site of the obstruction could alert the rail dispatcher as to some kind of problem - again, depending if there's a train on that section of track or not. I did it a couple of times with an aluminum step ladder off the truck, across the rails, the highway crossing arms lowered, and no trains came, so it did something that the rail company knew about!

[FakePilot]

I was going to say this. Also a good survival tip if you are lost in wilderness and find a railroad track.

[FUMR]

I would assume that with the number of officers on scene there could only be a limited number who could physically attempt to free the pilot. Others may have busied themselves securing the scene. It wouldn't have taken that long to put that tape up. Again, others may have been in the process of contacting the rail authorities to stop all trains. For sure that train was travelling at considerable speed. No doubt the facts will eventually emerge but I'd like to believe that pilot extraction had begun whilst others put the tape up.

[Clay_T]

I was thinking that, the fact that the tape is up, all the rescue services are parked up on the other side of the crossing and people are stood videoing, why on earth didn't someone get the train stopped up the line. Seems a bit odd to me tbh. You'd think as soon as the plane crashes the tower and or police would tell the railroad company to stop all trains.

There are (supposed to be) signs posted at each crossing with an emergency phone number to call in case the crossing is obstructed.

https://metrolinktrains.com/globalassets/news/quietzones1.jpg

I would imagine police officers/first responders have it on speed dial.

[Spooky 2]

That airport has been there for at least the last 60+ years. It was just an uncontrolled dirt strip initially with another small uncontrolled airport very close by. (San Fernando). More than one mid air over the years.

[nevillestyke]

Very brave policemen.
And policewoman.

[TRENT210]

As others have pointed out. They had the time to put the safety tape up.

It would have probably only taken a couple of cops to drag the aircraft off the tracks by it’s tail with the pilot still in (probably less likely to cause further injury than dragging him out in a panic)

But hindsight eyy

[visibility3miles]

But if you don’t know much about planes, e.g., how light they are compared to cars or SUVs, and you do know that a train IS coming that may have too much momentum to stop in time, and some idiots might try to drive or walk across the RR crossing, then putting up the warning tape seems like a really good idea.

I didn’t hear the pilot ask them to pull his plane off the train tracks…

[India Four Two]

I had also noticed the yellow tape and wondered how long the police had been there. I have moved enough Cessnas over the years to know that a few policemen pressing down on the stabilizer and pushing would have got it off the tracks PDQ. I also wondered why the police on site or the dispatcher hadn't call the railroad signalling center.

That's a great tip about short-circuiting the rails, Pilot DAR. I'm sure my battery jumper cables are more than 4' 8½" long!

With regards to airports in built-up areas like the Los Angeles basin, several years ago piperboy84 took me for a tour of the area. We had several discussions about where to land in an emergency. One of the plethora of freeways would be the obvious choice, but they are usually too busy. I favoured railroad tracks - luckily there are no overhead wires - but piperboy84 preferred the concrete ditch that is euphemistically called the Los Angeles River. I warned him that he would have to look out for the Terminator on a Harley!

On final to Fullerton, I commented that the warehouse roofs would be an option. He was flying high on the VASIS which was a good idea, considering the undershoot:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1592x892/screen_shot_2022_01_10_at_6_09_01_pm_e62c53fc98e5df466b47aaf 3c752cb22cef2c1a7.png

See here for more pictures of our "Cook's Tour":
https://www.pprune.org/private-flying/557919-scotsman-englishman-glens-la.html

[Squawk7700]

I was going to say this. Also a good survival tip if you are lost in wilderness and find a railroad track.

Do I need to carry a step ladder with me in case I get lost in the wilderness?

[theFirstDave]

Possibly the time spent stringing yellow tape might have been better employed moving the aircraft out of the path of the train?
Unknown as to why the responders didn't check the train schedule or have Dispatch call Metrolink. Departures from the Sylmar / San Fernando station (just a few miles away upline) to Union Station , according the the Sunday schedule around that time, look to be 12:42pm, 2:06pm and 3:51pm,. The timestamp on the police bodycam says 2:15pm so maybe they thought the 2:06 train has already passed? Metrolink has different schedules on M-F vs Sat. vs Sun.

[DaveReidUK]

6 seconds before the train hit, he was still behind the control column...

My point exactly - how long had it taken the responders up to then to extricate the pilot from his harness and the cockpit ?

As I pointed out (admittedly, with hindsight) in the post immediately prior to yours, and echoed subsequently by other posters, that time might have been better spent dragging the 172 off the tracks - plenty of muscle available, no train collision, no dangerous flying debris, no traumatised train driver (who gets nary a mention in any of the media reports).

[SWBKCB]

As I pointed out (admittedly, with hindsight) in the post immediately prior to yours, and echoed subsequently by other posters, that time might have been better spent dragging the 172 off the tracks - plenty of muscle available, no train collision, no dangerous flying debris, no traumatised train driver (who gets nary a mention in any of the media reports).

That looks like leaking fuel you'd be dragging it through, down by the nose, and it isn't clear what posts/street furniture were around.

[alfaman]

My point exactly - how long had it taken the responders up to then to extricate the pilot from his harness and the cockpit ?

As I pointed out (admittedly, with hindsight) in the post immediately prior to yours, and echoed subsequently by other posters, that time might have been better spent dragging the 172 off the tracks - plenty of muscle available, no train collision, no dangerous flying debris, no traumatised train driver (who gets nary a mention in any of the media reports).
I would hazard a guess that in the heat of the moment, you make a call as to which is the quicker course of action, & go with that decision. Hesitating whilst deciding whether it's easier for a couple of people to extract the pilot, or whether you have sufficient time & people to move the aircraft, could be vital seconds lost. In saying that, perhaps that process was undertaken off camera, & the conclusion was the aircraft was wedged in some way & it would be quicker just to extract him. Hindsight also says they were right, I suggest.

[Repos]

Am I right in thinking that there is no apparent braking by the train? I appreciate it probably wouldn't have stopped in time but wouldn't hitting emergency brakes be an automatic response or maybe SOPs dicate otherwise?

[sitigeltfel]

As I pointed out (admittedly, with hindsight) in the post immediately prior to yours, and echoed subsequently by other posters, that time might have been better spent dragging the 172 off the tracks - plenty of muscle available, no train collision, no dangerous flying debris, no traumatised train driver (who gets nary a mention in any of the media reports).

Dragging the wreckage with the pilot still inside could have caused him further injury.

[mnttech]

Hats off to the first responders.
My 0.02$, we all know you can move a Cessna, but that does not mean the first responders do. I would assume they are more trained (no pun intended) to get people out, or to secure the wreckage in spot.
In looking at the images in the first post, the nose wheel is on the ground along with the left wing, so I dont think coming "forward" would work all that well, you would have to go "back wards" across the tracks??
We weren't there, I still think the first team did great.

[Pilot DAR]

I trained firefighters in extrication for years, including from GA planes. We would never attempt to move a vehicle with a patient in it. Only stabilize and extricate. If you try to move a vehicle with someone in it, and something goes wrong, which is really possible, it's now your cause. The patient could be further injured, further trapped, it could catch fire, roll over, or another first responder could be injured - stabilize only. I've crawled into a lot of unpleasant places to cut a patient out of a car. For the couple of accidents where the vehicle had to be moved first, we had already determined that there was no rush, as we'd wait for the coroner. Though we did do auto extrication on or very near railway tracks, we were always able to get the trains stopped first, or it had already stopped. But, knowing that could be impossible to stop a very near train at track speed, my admiration of these police officers!

[First_Principal]

To my mind the thing about accidents/disasters etc is that while training for them may be able to assist in the event, by their very nature they're impossible to train for specifically.

Each event is different and will require decisions to be made on the spot and often with little time. To say that you should never move a vehicle regardless seems to me to dangerously limit options that first or second tier responders may have to rescue or prevent further injury. Perhaps we're lucky here but I wonder, DAR, from your comments, if Canada has a similar legal environment to what I understand the U.S. to have, and that as a rescuer you could be held liable for all sorts of things - and that's a significant reason for not moving as an option?

While I quite understand the reasons not to move a person from a vehicle there are times when other factors can overrule that, IMO. Just the same as with moving a vehicle. In my life I've had occasion to attend several disasters and accidents, and make important decisions about what to do. At least one of those was to extract two people from a vehicle that had crashed into a bridge abutment; the rapidly increasing smoke and leaking petrol tipped the balance for me against leaving them inside and potentially reaching a point where it would have been impossible to rescue them.

Perhaps it's an indictment on today's society, but I suggest competence-based training is more what's needed than rules-based, sadly however I see much more of the latter - all I can hope is that if I'm ever in a position to need assistance the person(s) who turn up will know what to do, rather than what rules they must follow. So good on these police for doing what was needed at the time, whether it was extraction or moving the 'plane it seems they made a decision based on circumstances and went with it :D

[Pilot DAR]

there are times when other factors can overrule that, IMO.

Of course. Our actions as firefighters are defined by operating guidelines. Each guideline, includes a reference to the possible need to do something else. But, if you, as a firefighter singularly decide to do something which contradicts a guideline, you will probably called upon to explain later, particularly if something goes wrong. If you're operating within the guideline, and something goes wrong, it's pretty well an automatic "well, you did your best". If you were outside the guideline, people are going to ask and think a lot before they may reach the same conclusion.

We move patients as little as possible, but sometimes you have to move them. If you have to move them, you control their condition and position as much as you can before you move them. But, if there's a critical need to move them, you do what you have to do, with the foregoing considered. So If I have to suddenly drag someone out of immediate peril, it is what it is, I may not make their condition worse, while I'll probably save their life. But, to move someone, possibly loose inside a vehicle, by pulling the vehicle, means that they could flop around inside the vehicle as it moves (or rolls over), and become more badly injured. The vehicle could catch fire while being moved, and then you just trapped them inside, and caused a fire! Or, the vehicle could further jam, so when moved, is less accessible for extrication. We've taken as long as 45 minutes to cut someone from a car without inuring them further.

Upon arrival, the first thing you do before patient assessment and assistance is to assess the scene, which these police obviously did well - patient safety and condition, bystander safety, and your safety. Correctly done (and hopefully called in), that assessment forms the basis of what you'll do next, and how urgently. If the patient is injured, it is never not urgent, you have an hour. But, particularly with medics arriving on scene, if you have the time, you should use some of the time to do it right, assess and immobilize the patient, then move them.

During auto extrication training I conducted, I had an old 172 fuselage taken to the wrecking yard too. While I was teaching to look for airbags before cutting through a B post, I was teaching that's where the fuel lines are in a Cessna!

Experience comes from both doing it a lot, but also realizing how close your success was to non success in many ways, and remembering that for next time!

[DaveReidUK]

Dragging the wreckage with the pilot still inside could have caused him further injury.

Indeed it could.

And if extricating him had taken 5 seconds longer, his worries would have been over permanently.

Just because the outcome was a good one doesn't mean that lessons can't be learned.

[Pilot DAR]

Lessons can always be learned!

Attempting to move that plane with the pilot in it would have been a wayyyy less good choice compared to what the police succeeded in doing. Can you imaging taking the time to find the rope or tow strap, hook it to a structure you do not understand, and then onto a hard point on your patrol car that you also do not understand, to find the as you pulled, the plane rolled a bit, the pilot's arm flopped out, and got caught, so you stopped dragging it, or it hooked on the track and wouldn't move, and maybe what you'd hooked too broke off? All of that did not work, took time, and prevented the direct rescue of the pilot in the mean time - then the train hits and kills the patient. The police would have been in for massive criticism then! As it was, it had a lot of risk to both pilot and police officer. The risk went down for the pilot as it went up for the police officer - but the police officer never increased the risk to the pilot as a patient.

I have had times when I could not save a person, I tried. I did what I was trained to do, it did not work. patient died, I did not. I did my job. I've had times when I refused to start a zero zero in snow night rescue, because I knew that the very remote chance we could find them was offset by immense risk to our team, and the slight risk that finding the patients could have been by running them over with the airboat. But the lesson learned was that we needed FLIR, then the Chief let me buy one - we just needed the lesson!

From time to time on scene I'd shout "Freeze". That means that everyone has to stop, while we consider something safety related which a firefighter has noticed. The minute I witnessed someone connecting a tow anything to that airplane with someone in it, I would have yelled freeze for sure!

[megan]

Dragging the wreckage with the pilot still inside could have caused him further injuryDragging the wreckage and possibility of causing sparks may not be a good idea as there has been fuel spillage - evident under right wing. What could they have used as an attach point on the aircraft in order to tow it, looks as though the engine is no longer attached to the firewall, possible sparking from dislodged battery in the engine compartment. 70 year old ex fighter pilot lives to fly another day.

[Bueno Hombre]

There are (supposed to be) signs posted at each crossing with an emergency phone number to call in case the crossing is obstructed.

https://metrolinktrains.com/globalassets/news/quietzones1.jpg

I would imagine police officers/first responders have it on speed dial.
Probably a dud number , staffed at best, by tree monkeys.

[lightonthewater]

The step ladder trick to stop the train is excellent and worth noting for similar emergencies. On most operational main lines in the UK, and probably in the US, short circuiting the very low voltage across the rails mimics the presence of a train, automatically puts the nearest signal on that track to red / danger, and alerts the signalman. However, it takes a long time and distance to stop a speeding train and there is no guarantee that a train hasn't already passed the signal when it goes to red.

[[email protected]]

I was going to say this. Also a good survival tip if you are lost in wilderness and find a railroad track. then all you need to find in the wilderness is a stepladder:)

[lightonthewater]

Doesn't everyone carry a ladder while trekking? Surely essential when climbing a tree to escape bears. But any metal short circuit across the rails will do to put signals at danger, whether in the wilderness, in town or elsewhere.

[netstruggler]

Doesn't everyone carry a ladder while trekking? Surely essential when climbing a tree to escape bears. But any metal short circuit across the rails will do to put signals at danger, whether in the wilderness, in town or elsewhere.

Out in the wilderness signals will be very far apart. Chances are there isn't going to be one between you and the train.

[lightonthewater]

Netstruggler: True, but better to take the chance of stopping it than to guarantee to wreck the train. In any case, I seem to remember that the incident that sparked this thread was in a busy city environment, (which was rather the point of it, in fact)

[Feathered]

Police cars usually have jumper cables available to help someone with a discharged automobile battery. If anyone had taken a jumper cable and connected it to both rails before unrolling the yellow tape around the scene,, it likely would have informed the train signalling system that the track was busy, causing a stop signal (in the cab or along the wayside) to approaching trains. It also would have caused a nearby crossing gate/signal to activate.
Signaling systems detect trains on the tracks by measuring resistance between the rails on a given section (block). A train's axle (or your jumper cable) will trigger low resistance, which is detected as the block is busy.
Another approach would have been to call the railroad emergency number. The police officers' dispatch should have been able to do this as there was a bunch of time after landing.
With all that said, this is incredible bravery by the officers on the scene and a fabulous rescue of the injured pilot.

[Timmy Tomkins]

It was reported he did an emergency landing on the tracks. Airplane was complete except for the damage caused when the nose gear eventually touched down on the crossties.

Should make for an interesting NTSB investigation. Do they have to call in railroad experts and aircraft experts ?
NTSB does both; all types of transport.