Psychometric testing

[Skippy69]

Heard that there are some higher up GA or even aero med companies now conducting these tests pre employment. They've obviously been in the airlines a while (Jetstar's maybe no so good)- so what are the opinions etc? Do they work or what are they looking for?

[TimmyTee]

Best bet is learn how to fit into a quota, then the tests won't matter

[Uplinker]

I cannot see their worth for selecting pilots, since the tests bear no relation to the flying task.

They test for intelligence, which is fair enough, airlines or aircraft operators do not want to employ dim people. A dim person could have good hand-eye coordination, but a pilot needs also to have intelligence to deal with all the peripheral tasks outside actually flying a plane: fuelling and loading calculations, delay management, team work, knowledge of limitations, procedures, rules and regulations etc.

But when they put very tight time limits on the tests, I am pretty sure that they are being used as a proxy for age. As we get older, our thought processes slow down because, like a computer whose hard disk is nearly full, our thought processing involves going through more memory content than when one is younger.

Age discrimination is illegal in most countries, so I think airlines develop ways of selecting the younger candidates, and I think they do this through tightly timed tests. At one airline, we had to do 25 or so maths questions in 12 minutes, and a similar tight restriction on a verbal comprehension test. One important thing pilots are taught is that in an emergency don't do anything quickly; sit on your hands, assess all the information carefully. DODAR etc.

The only things pilots need to do quickly is get the rudder in to keep straight on the runway during an engine failure; operate the flight controls when landing in a turbulent crosswind, or do an RTO. These are all physical actions, involving hand-eye coordination, not answering maths or verbal questions, or whether you like poetry or guns.

So to have to pass time-limited computer based puzzles and tests cannot be anything to do with pilot ability. They are arguably fair enough for newbies applying for their first jobs, but any pilot with decent experience has proved their psychometric ability already.

[NaFenn]

Having worked for a company that did psycometric testng for flight training... its a waste of time if not implemented properly. Because it was a university looking at the data - they were only interested in the score and nothing else. So 2 students that I had who were by far the hardest I have had (Neither of which made it to first solo) got onto the course because, although they were flagged in the interview as not likely to be successful, were entered into the course because they had a perfect score on the aptitude test. Both students were academically very intelligent but could not transfer that to hands on flying.

[Torukmacto]

All the airlines I’ve worked for never did psychometric testing and it showed and it was great , some really great characters who could fly .

[lucille]

As soon as someone can define what a “good” pilot is then maybe psychometric testing may be of value.

[Ladloy]

It's generally a filter for HR and lines the pocket of people like Kirsty from Pinstripes. Once you start buying ways to cheat the test, they're virtually useless.

[airdualbleedfault]

Maybe, underline maybe, for culling purposes if you're hiring cadets or people with little or no time in the industry but for pilots who have 10,15 years plus in major airlines and have unblemished records? Complete and utter BS. Airlines that are tied to Phsyc tests because of the useful idiots in the parent company HR dept are missing out on great opportunities to hire good people with real world experience because of that useless test

[unobtanium]

As soon as someone can define what a “good” pilot is then maybe psychometric testing may be of value.

I would say being able to solve problems quickly when under pressure would be a good start.

[neville_nobody]

It's generally a filter for HR and lines the pocket of people like Kirsty from Pinstripes. Once you start buying ways to cheat the test, they're virtually useless.

Yes once everyone is getting coached on how to pass the exams it defeats the purpose as it isn't a genuine result.

[Uplinker]

I would say being able to solve problems quickly when under pressure would be a good start.

Professional transport pilots are taught NOT to rush or do things quickly in emergencies; that was my point.

Time is taken to correctly and calmly identify a failed engine for example or feather the correct prop. Even a TCAS or GPWS escape manoeuvre or a go-around should not be rushed, just performed properly and calmly.

I suspect that HR people - not being pilots - go by what they see in films and believe that pilots should fly the way they did in Top Gun, and other aircraft disaster movies.

[Torukmacto]

The really good ones seem to be one step ahead of pressure.

[das Uber Soldat]

But when they put very tight time limits on the tests, I am pretty sure that they are being used as a proxy for age. As we get older, our thought processes slow down because, like a computer whose hard disk is nearly full, our thought processing involves going through more memory content than when one is younger.
I got a genuine laugh out of this.

The ageing process of the brain has nothing to do with the fact you have 'more memory content'.

Psychometric testing looks at one aspect of a pilots competencies. It doesn't claim that it covers them all, so your example where people 'aced the test' but couldn't fly is a meaningless straw man.

The only things pilots need to do quickly is get the rudder in to keep straight on the runway during an engine failure; operate the flight controls when landing in a turbulent crosswind, or do an RTO. These are all physical actions, involving hand-eye coordination, not answering maths or verbal questions, or whether you like poetry or guns.
The only things? Really? So when we get an ECAM/equivalent at V1 - 20kts you've got all the time in the world to assess, analyze and make a critical decision do you? Personally, if I'm sitting in the hold over my recently closed destination on min fuel looking for alternates, maybe with weather, I'm happier sitting next to someone who can quickly do the math, rather than old mate who wants to sit on his hands because a bit of time pressure buckles his/her/its ability to do the 3 times tables.

[Dookie on Drums]

Personally, if I'm sitting in the hold over my recently closed destination on min fuel looking for alternates, maybe with weather, I'm happier sitting next to someone who can quickly do the math, rather than old mate who wants to sit on his hands because a bit of time pressure buckles his/her/its ability to do the 3 times tables.

I would have hoped that being the prudent pilot that you are, you would have already planned for this and not painted yourself into a corner in the first place. Plan for the worst, hope for the best. 6 P's etc.

[ULH Extreme]

Many yrs ago when i joined the RAAF, One cadet aced ground school and then bombed out in the first stages of flying, taught us a lesson. 20 yrs later i did a stanine test in the US for World Airways , 4 guys failed, all Irish and they were all good operators. We all reckoned they failed on the low side and HR got rid of them. In the nineties i flew with a bloke who was a genius, IQ through the roof, failed every attempt at Command.

[Stationair8]

I thought psychometric testing, determined your ability to spend a lot of your cash, to sell your soul for a minimum wage, so that one day you may get your dream job flying a jet.

[das Uber Soldat]

I would have hoped that being the prudent pilot that you are, you would have already planned for this and not painted yourself into a corner in the first place. Plan for the worst, hope for the best. 6 P's etc.
You fly a commercial airliner and carry alternate fuel for every destination regardless of weather?

I need to hear more about this.

[Uplinker]

The only things? Really? So when we get an ECAM/equivalent at V1 - 20kts you've got all the time in the world to assess, analyze and make a critical decision do you?

Have another read of my words - that you actually quoted - before weighing in: I cited an RTO as something we do need to do quickly :D

As for your mate not being able to do the three times table........... huh ? :ugh: And are you telling us that you don't do DODAR or anything in emergencies; you just make a snap decision?

I think Stationair8 has given us the real reason for psychometric testing.

[Xeptu]

In my experience the best pilots are the ones that get the comments "he can fly" or "he's the one you want to be with" they are usually the ones that don't go unnoticed.

[Keg]

Psychometric testing looks at one aspect of a pilots competencies. It doesn't claim that it covers them all…


Yet in many cases they make up a very significant part of the selection process- if not all of it when it comes to many cadet pilot schemes.

[Dookie on Drums]

You fly a commercial airliner and carry alternate fuel for every destination regardless of weather?

I need to hear more about this.

No, I don't carry alternate fuel for every destination regardless of weather however there are exceptions. That's where prudent planning comes in. Anyway, enough of the thread drift.

[das Uber Soldat]

Have another read of my words - that you actually quoted - before weighing in: I cited an RTO as something we do need to do quickly :D
Oh I read your words, but amusingly I don't think you've quite understood mine. Or even your own. Yes, you did mention RTO in your list of 'do quickly', but my point wasn't that you had omitted RTO, but that your foundation for its inclusion was wrong. You wrote;

These are all physical actions, involving hand-eye coordination

This is why psychometric testing has a reading comprehension component. :D

My inclusion of the RTO is to demonstrate, using your own example for effect, that your foundation isn't correct. V1 isn't called "hand eye coordination speed", its called decision speed. You have to recognize, analyze and decide in an extremely time compressed environment. There is no 'sitting on your hands', dodar or any other such nonsense.. It has nothing to do with how well you can pat your head whilst rubbing your stomach. The aircraft has presented you with a problem. You have 3 seconds to make the right decision, the consequences of which could be significant. Would you like me to list examples of what happens when the wrong decision is made? Where do you think those pilots went wrong? Hand eye coordination not good enough I suppose?

As for your mate not being able to do the three times table........... huh ?
Do.. .do you need me to explain the example more simply? It is an example of a situation where you may be required to do simple math quickly, under time pressure. One of dozens I could provide if necessary.

You claim that being a pilot involves no requirement to make decisions or do basic arithmetic in an environment of time pressure. You have claimed that anything that is in that environment of time pressure is a hand eye coordination task, not a cognitive task. (Side note, you also amusingly claim that the human brain slows down because it gets 'full', but I see you've decided to abandon ship on that vapid argument).

I can, and have shown that this is nonsense.

And are you telling us that you don't do DODAR or anything in emergencies; you just make a snap decision?
Again with the reading compression skills, no wonder you're so against having them tested. Where have I said that, or even implied it? Making a case that there exists circumstances where decisions are necessary under time pressure is NOT analogous to saying ALL situations require decisions under time pressure.

:ugh:

I think Stationair8 has given us the real reason for psychometric testing.
I'd argue you have.

[das Uber Soldat]

No, I don't carry alternate fuel for every destination regardless of weather however there are exceptions. That's where prudent planning comes in. Anyway, enough of the thread drift.
Right, neither do I. Yet on the odd occasion, such as an airport shutting due to runway damage as happened in Sydney a few years ago, we're left with a last minute planning exercise on low fuel. Other aircraft are diverting and taking slots, you need to work out where you can go, if you can go and how long you even have to even make the decision.

The point was, sometimes you have to do math under time pressure, that's all. No matter how well you do your 6P's.

[Alt Flieger]

I know a bloke involved in creating the curriculum for a medical degree. He said very little of medical degree requires more than average year `12 knowledge but what a high score does predict is the ability to absorb a huge amount of information in a limited time and the ability to integrate it into a coherent whole. It does not predict how good a Doctor the candidate will be. Hence the increase in emphasis on personality profiling in Med. schools.
Same in Aviation. Psychometric testing doesnt predict if you will be a good Pilot. It does however predict the likelihood of the candidate getting through ground and line training efficiently.and successfully in the limited time available.
In the diversion scenario described by US ( I remember that day ) you find out if the newbie next to you absorbed the appropriate information during line training.
Reciting rules and Regis wont cut it. Otherwise its single Pilot IFR. I’ll take an ordinary GA Pilot with single pilot IFR in a Turbine any time.
But those days are gone. Welcome to the world of 200 hours F/O’s. Glad I’m retired.

[Ascend Charlie]

runway damage as happened in Sydney a few years ago,

Like this? I was in a helicopter just off Botany Bay heads, waiting to come in along the shoreline, and the panic from the Air Tragic Controllers meant that they had no brain cells left to allow me to sneak along the shore (there was no longer any air traffic) to land well clear of the runway - just too hard. And in a nice piece of irony, the pilot of the 747 had given up on flying helicopters a few months earlier when I showed him that he couldn't fly, hold a map, navigate, and talk on the radio, without a copilot.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/841x595/4_747_nose_2_5dce3c570a7e483bf36cacad7103158486361950.jpg

[das Uber Soldat]

Flaps 30, four greens. Nothing to see here. :E

[Alt Flieger]

Yeah that was a good one.
More recently a Heavy departing on 16R in SYD blew an Engine and in the RTO burst a tyre. The tyreless hub scoured the surface of 25 and debris from the engine and tyre closed 16R. Bingo. Down to one runway. Never happens the Fuel gurus say. Oh yes it does. You find out at lot about your buddy on days like that.
Mede for a long day at the office if you were trying to do a double MEL-SYD shuttle.

[morno]

I cannot see their worth for selecting pilots, since the tests bear no relation to the flying task.

They test for intelligence, which is fair enough, airlines or aircraft operators do not want to employ dim people. A dim person could have good hand-eye coordination, but a pilot needs also to have intelligence to deal with all the peripheral tasks outside actually flying a plane: fuelling and loading calculations, delay management, team work, knowledge of limitations, procedures, rules and regulations etc.

But when they put very tight time limits on the tests, I am pretty sure that they are being used as a proxy for age. As we get older, our thought processes slow down because, like a computer whose hard disk is nearly full, our thought processing involves going through more memory content than when one is younger.

Age discrimination is illegal in most countries, so I think airlines develop ways of selecting the younger candidates, and I think they do this through tightly timed tests. At one airline, we had to do 25 or so maths questions in 12 minutes, and a similar tight restriction on a verbal comprehension test. One important thing pilots are taught is that in an emergency don't do anything quickly; sit on your hands, assess all the information carefully. DODAR etc.

The only things pilots need to do quickly is get the rudder in to keep straight on the runway during an engine failure; operate the flight controls when landing in a turbulent crosswind, or do an RTO. These are all physical actions, involving hand-eye coordination, not answering maths or verbal questions, or whether you like poetry or guns.

So to have to pass time-limited computer based puzzles and tests cannot be anything to do with pilot ability. They are arguably fair enough for newbies applying for their first jobs, but any pilot with decent experience has proved their psychometric ability already.

Funniest **** I’ve read in a while. Thankfully it appears that psychometric testing does work, because it filters out the crowd of “I can fly a 389ft circuit using only my superior skills and I don’t need maths” pilots who can’t accept that through human factors research, we are discovering that there’s a lot more to being a pilot than plonking it down without waking row 4.

If you can’t pass them, maybe you need to accept that you may be one of the type they’re not looking for.

[Derfred]

Did Jetstar have psychometric testing when that serial killer was employed?

[das Uber Soldat]

Did Jetstar have psychometric testing when that serial killer was employed?
No idea. Do you think the ability to do math and match shapes in a limited time makes one more likely to kill?

[Keg]

Do you think that’s all these psychometric skills measure for? Maths and reasoning?

[galdian]

Funniest **** I’ve read in a while. Thankfully it appears that psychometric testing does work, because it filters out the crowd of “I can fly a 389ft circuit using only my superior skills and I don’t need maths” pilots who can’t accept that through human factors research, we are discovering that there’s a lot more to being a pilot than plonking it down without waking row 4.

If you can’t pass them, maybe you need to accept that you may be one of the type they’re not looking for.

2+2 = 4, ok basic maths so profiles, fuel calculations and so on - even only as a basic cross check - should be ok.
"Witch" Vs "Which", ok basic understanding of the english language which will be useful.

Answering a question with your "best" multiple choice then having to select your next "best" (or least worst) answer as well - great idea in a profession where Jung, Freud and all the other proponents would interpret the answers differently from each other - yeah, that really makes sense. :*
Finally because an individual has made up "their" progression it is the only possible progression that can be seen so anyone who doesn't see it are wrong? :ugh:

The HR apparatus have enforced a position that their psychobabble means everything, experience nothing.
I think that's a great imbalance - but at least I get to see sequentially the person being bent over the desk and rodgererd!

Seems a strange one to me - but who's to argue with the psychobabblers?? :ok:

Cheers.

[galdian]

Do you think that’s all these psychometric skills measure for? Maths and reasoning?

OK as you opened the door and have experience in the recruitment side of the QF machine - just what DO these tests demonstrate?

Being of an older generation it's never been explained to me the benefits for the make up of the pilot group?
Uniformity? Conformity? Ease of manipulation into prevailing dogma?

Sort of defeats the purpose of CRM if the aim is to have everyone wired the same.

Cheers.

[morno]

2+2 = 4, ok basic maths so profiles, fuel calculations and so on - even only as a basic cross check - should be ok.
"Witch" Vs "Which", ok basic understanding of the english language which will be useful.

Answering a question with your "best" multiple choice then having to select your next "best" (or least worst) answer as well - great idea in a profession where Jung, Freud and all the other proponents would interpret the answers differently from each other - yeah, that really makes sense. :*
Finally because an individual has made up "their" progression it is the only possible progression that can be seen so anyone who doesn't see it are wrong? :ugh:

The HR apparatus have enforced a position that their psychobabble means everything, experience nothing.
I think that's a great imbalance - but at least I get to see sequentially the person being bent over the desk and rodgererd!

Seems a strange one to me - but who's to argue with the psychobabblers?? :ok:

Cheers.

When I did mine for the airline which required it, I then went through it with a psychologist afterwards and had it explained to me what my results revealed. It was rather interesting and I’d actually say spot on. Certainly taught me a bit about myself and areas which I could work on when it came time to upgrade.

[galdian]

When I did mine for the airline which required it, I then went through it with a psychologist afterwards and had it explained to me what my results revealed. It was rather interesting and I’d actually say spot on. Certainly taught me a bit about myself and areas which I could work on when it came time to upgrade.

Suppose badly explained from myself, presently there's clearly a mantra in some organisations that experience is worth nothing, psycho stuff everything.

I believe that's crap and a very unhealthy and unbalanced way for said organisations to approach things but like group thinking and wokeness the proponents are in the ascendancy for now.

If I were starting out it's an area I would have to spend significant money in gaming as the penalty for NOT succeeding is your career.

[Keg]

Galdian. Psychometric assessments have their place as one small part of the recruitment process. They’re not the be all and end all and how the results are used is just as important as what they’re looking for.

I’ve heard of examples of of the benchmark being lowered and one Aussie airlines accepting candidates that their own psychometric testing disqualified in the years prior when they’ve been faced with the lack of suitable applicants. (Around the 2007-2009 time frame). Obviously this is a poor use of them. Why bother if you’re going to ignore the results?

Whether they’re used well is a very subjective assessment. Just as looking at a logbook full of ‘experience’ doesn’t tell a full story, and asking questions about the time you demonstrated great teamwork doesn’t tell the full story, psychometric testing also won’t tell the full story.

So I’m not defending the way they’re used by many airlines, I’m simply saying that they’re a tool that can be used well.

[galdian]

Keg

All fair enough, your last sentence sums it up - are certain organisations using the tool well?

Be different opinions, I believe in some organisations it is a totally unbalanced and unhealthy domination of psychometric testing over other aspects of an application.

Cheers

[Keg]

I don’t disagree with your assessment! When all HR has is a hammer, it should be no surprise that everything around them looks like a nail.

[das Uber Soldat]

So I’m not defending the way they’re used by many airlines, I’m simply saying that they’re a tool that can be used well.
Which is all I've been saying all along. Psychometric testing is a useful tool to examine one aspect of a pilots competencies. Like any tool, it can be used correctly, or misused. That isn't the fault of the tool. I disagree with the assertions made by others that psychometric testing is entirely irrelevant to a pilots skills set, and that in no circumstances are we as pilots ever required to call upon the metrics examined by psychometric testing.

Do you think that’s all these psychometric skills measure for? Maths and reasoning?
No. But the joke didn't flow as well if I sat there and listed every metric :)

[The Banjo]

I got a genuine laugh out of this.

The ageing process of the brain has nothing to do with the fact you have 'more memory content'.

Psychometric testing looks at one aspect of a pilots competencies. It doesn't claim that it covers them all, so your example where people 'aced the test' but couldn't fly is a meaningless straw man.


The only things? Really? So when we get an ECAM/equivalent at V1 - 20kts you've got all the time in the world to assess, analyze and make a critical decision do you? Personally, if I'm sitting in the hold over my recently closed destination on min fuel looking for alternates, maybe with weather, I'm happier sitting next to someone who can quickly do the math, rather than old mate who wants to sit on his hands because a bit of time pressure buckles his/her/its ability to do the 3 times tables.


Perhaps having the intuition to not end up in such a situation in the first place is a better option.

[das Uber Soldat]

Perhaps having the intuition to not end up in such a situation in the first place is a better option.
Perhaps. Or perhaps the 'intuition' to read the thread first so you don't rehash something that's already been asked and answered.

[galdian]

Perhaps having the intuition to not end up in such a situation in the first place is a better option.

Replace the word "intuition" with "experience" and I'd be there like a shot.
Sadly experience of f**k all value, the psycho dogma's got it all covered.

Probably the reason why major airlines (QF also??) are looking to amend their manuals, in the near future cadets straight out of school into the LHS of a RPT jet, the psycho says they'll be fine so why not?? :ok:

Experience is so old school and passe! :p

Cheers

[neville_nobody]

Probably the reason why major airlines (QF also??) are looking to amend their manuals, in the near future cadets straight out of school into the LHS of a RPT jet, the psycho says they'll be fine so why not?? https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Experience is so old school and passe!

Now run the same argument but replace Captain with the word CEO/CFO/ General Manager and watch the pushback that starts up. The same people who say someone can be a airline captain with no experience will never say that a top uni graduate could be in senior management. Alan Joyce was only recently justifying pay rises for management in the midst of another billion dollar loss to maintain experience. But don't worry a guy who could kill 500 people and destroy the entire company doesn't need any.

[Roj approved]

Now run the same argument but replace Captain with the word CEO/CFO/ General Manager and watch the pushback that starts up. The same people who say someone can be a airline captain with no experience will never say that a top uni graduate could be in senior management. Alan Joyce was only recently justifying pay rises for management in the midst of another billion dollar loss to maintain experience. But don't worry a guy who could kill 500 people and destroy the entire company doesn't need any.

This is so true, the same people that push everyday to save “cost” ie: wages, also say at Executive level “if you don’t pay the market rate, you won’t attract the talent”. Look at the disparity between Executive salaries vs worker’s salary in the last 30 years.

https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-compensation-2018/

[airdualbleedfault]

Now run the same argument but replace Captain with the word CEO/CFO/ General Manager and watch the pushback that starts up. The same people who say someone can be a airline captain with no experience will never say that a top uni graduate could be in senior management. Alan Joyce was only recently justifying pay rises for management in the midst of another billion dollar loss to maintain experience. But don't worry a guy who could kill 500 people and destroy the entire company doesn't need any.
That's a bluddy good point :ok:

[AerialPerspective]

This is so true, the same people that push everyday to save “cost” ie: wages, also say at Executive level “if you don’t pay the market rate, you won’t attract the talent”. Look at the disparity between Executive salaries vs worker’s salary in the last 30 years.

https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-compensation-2018/

I despise that vacuous piece of garbage. Exactly what talent is that?? Look at Telstra and the 'import' that they brought from the US several years back, one decent former QF CEO (Menadue) apparently resigned from the Board of Telstra in disgust at the way it was being run, the CEO in question who's behaviour and that of the management led JM to do that had a string of corporate disasters in his wake, but the LNP government at the time paid him tens of millions. How could they possible NOT have come across his previous disasters??

I don't know what talent it is that they are looking at but IMHO, over the last 30+ years, the quality of management at senior level has declined significantly and the remuneration has risen exponentially.

This is now a 'club'. Don't bother working your way up and knowing something about the business anymore (and yes, pilots, engineers and ground ops people can make good CEOs), because that job is reserved for someone who fits a whole different set of parameters and once they're in, regardless of performance, they either get a golden parachute or stay as long as they like, followed by which they then spend the rest of their comfortable lives being 'invited' to serve on the Board of various companies. I seem to remember someone who drove one of our airlines into the ground, who then got an AO and several Board seats as 'reward'. Yet another, who came into a now defunct airline right at the end when it was already sinking, found it very hard to get a job afterward.

Now, incompetence and even billions in accumulated losses are no barrier to future reward.

[Chris2303]

This is so true, the same people that push everyday to save “cost” ie: wages, also say at Executive level “if you don’t pay the market rate, you won’t attract the talent”. Look at the disparity between Executive salaries vs worker’s salary in the last 30 years.

That fallacy is getting really boring and those who propound it are just feathering their own nests.

Would the Irishman refused the job if he was paid 50%, 25% or 10% of his current salary for the chance to live in the "lucky country"?