Covid Vaccines and Pilots

[KeepItStraight]

Got sent sent this link today. Airline Pilots Fight For Safety (https://www.thedailyexaminer.co.nz/airline-pilots-fight-for-safety-for-themselves-their-passengers/)
Seems to me to be a typical click bait beat up, particularly when I see a certain ex Qantas pilot quoted.
Australia’s Graham Hood, a former Qantas airline pilot and now motivational speaker, has provided a list of incidents within the airline industry in Australia that had either been sent to him or involved people he knew personally.

This gem really put the whole article in perspective. To date, we are aware that only approximately 300 medical exemptions have been issued nationwide for covid vaccines. As we understand is the case with Air NZ, those pilots who were to get medical exemptions would still be faced with job loss or indefinite leave without pay as any medical condition to receive such an exemption would preclude them from holding an aviation medical.
How can someone lose their job as a pilot when they have a medical condition preventing them from holding a medical to start with? What Einstein wrote this?

[Wizofoz]

How can someone lose their job as a pilot when they have a medical condition preventing them from holding a medical to start with? What Einstein wrote this?

Because people have suddenly "discovered" conditions to try and get an exemption.

Shame that means "discovereing" you can't hold a medical....

Daily examiner- wasn't that the same rag Mullah Kintyre used to spread mis-information?

[TimmyTee]

Maybe it’s a duty of care to the 99.98% of pilots who do comply (in before “but if they’re vaccinated then what’s their worry!?)

[Buttscratcher]

I got vaccinated, we all did..... you pussys stop whinging and get vaccinated FFS!

[74world]

Excellent article, thanks for sharing. Hopefully more people will wake up !
Thanks also to Graham Wood for having the guts to speak up...

[morno]

Excellent article, thanks for sharing. Hopefully more people will wake up !
Thanks also to Graham Wood for having the guts to speak up...

Oh dear 🤦‍♂️

[Hamley]

Hopefully more people will wake up !..

Something I don’t understand is why people who have ‘woken up’ and formed a very strong opinion about why vaccines are ‘bad’ don’t go and inform the authorities.

You’ve got it all worked out and they’re wrong - you should go and let them know! Your views must be based on very solid evidence and reasoning, so why don’t YOU go to your local state health department, the UN or whatever and explain it to them?

The decision makers are living a big lie because of big pharma/qanon/Hilldawg/etc and you’ve found huge flaws in the whole deal with your internet connection. Surely even the rusted in ‘bias’ of doctors, scientists and medical experts will be persuaded by your incredible evidence because you’ve WOKEN UP!

You have solid proof! Irrefutable evidence! Watertight theories! Boundless and prodigious medical knowledge!

Why haven’t you walked in there and told them?

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Why haven’t you walked in there and told them?

Because they’re all part of the deep-state conspiracy, and if you go anywhere near them, you’ll be implanted with a 5G tracking device which they’ll use to do, well, something or other.

[C441]

Thanks also to Graham Wood for having the guts to speak up...
Graham (Graeme) Wood? Didn't he open the batting for Australia in the 80's? Run out king if I remember correctly. :)

[Wizofoz]

Thanks also to Graham Wood for having the guts to speak up...

You mean the shameless, God-bothering self-promotor who now thinks he's a "Motivational speaker"? Yeah- thanks Graham...

[Car RAMROD]

From the list of people affected in the article:

”5 Dec 2021.... Jetstar.... 737 Check Captain....”
hmm ok then

[shortshortz]

should be 787 CC

[PoppaJo]

I know one on that list that had nothing to do with the vaccine. Stop peddling bull****.

Anyone employed inside who provides these clowns with the fuel they need to write these articles, quoting people’s names that are lies, needs to be sacked.

[43Inches]

Yes, that list is the first time I've seen anyone list (real or not) severe side effects for Australian employees. But I don't know anyone personally or even through hearsay that has lost their medical to the jab. However I have spoken directly to a few pilots that have now lost their medical in the US from Covid virus complications to the heart and lung.

[The Baron]

Just get vaccinated Stupid! Plenty of other careers for paranoid fruit loops, just not this one.

[goodonyamate]

Thanks also to Graham Wood for having the guts to speak up...

he certainly is a wood.

[Ollie Onion]

That article is the biggest bunch of bull**** I have read in a long time, at least two of the entires in that list are total garbage from my personal knowledge so I assume the ones from the other airlines are also total bull****.

[Jock p]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1476533021444648963

[TimmyTee]

Hahahaha what a nutter. If accurate, they could ground the entire United States, or they could just change one word and move on. But nah, every pilot is gonna be in super bad trouble

[megan]

Just came to a thought that airline bean counters will fall in love with. Since its been determined that the money and time spent in training of the medical profession and epidemiologists has been of no use why then do we spend inordinate sums of money and invest lengthy periods of time in training people in the aerospace industry? The airline could just ask for volunteers to occupy the two front seats, if the machine breaks there will be a handy man on board who knows about spanners, screwdrivers, hammers and things, there will undoubtedly be someone on board who sells TV's and white goods so electronics and electrics are covered. The $2 ML - SY airfare will be a reality, forget fast trains, you heard it here first, you know it makes sense.

[ThunderstormFactory]

They think Pfizer and Moderna aren’t FDA approved…they say cominarty and spikevax have been approved, but Americans don’t get those (they are identical). I know when I got Pfizer here it was labeled as cominarty (the fda approved version according to ‘them’)

[Pinky the pilot]

Because they’re all part of the deep-state conspiracy, and if you go anywhere near them, you’ll be implanted with a 5G tracking device which they’ll use to do, well, something or other.

What really makes me wonder is that there are actually people who really believe that!:eek: And they are capable of both breeding and voting.

I don't know which scares me the most!:ugh:

[dr dre]

Got sent sent this link today. Airline Pilots Fight For Safety (https://www.thedailyexaminer.co.nz/airline-pilots-fight-for-safety-for-themselves-their-passengers/)


I can say for certainty at least one of those "incidents" was blown out of proportion, was minor, related to pre existing conditions and happened months after that person was vaccinated.

We all know how close a community aviation is so surely we can identify most of these "incidents" and see if that list is accurate or not. We also know how aviation workers love gossip and rumours. Funny I haven't been hearing of all these brain aneurysms, heart attacks, defibrillations, chronic health conditions and deaths that have supposedly plagued the industry in the last few months. No one I know has had long term issues from any jab.

But of course those affected by those "incidents" have been coerced into silence, the "deep state" and "big pharma" will get them if they speak out. It's only these far right religious inspired conspiracy sites which somehow are able to get the truth, which is funny because almost all pilots I know stay clear of such groups generally.

[Jock p]

Will be interesting to see how the FAA responds to this :rolleyes:

According to the letter signers, which include attorneys and medical doctors, the airline industry is operating in violation of Title 14 of the Federal Aviation Regulations, and related federal rules, which prohibit pilots from flying with non-FDA approved agents in their bodies, such as the Covid-10 vaccines, if those substances put the general public at risk for serious injury or death. The writers distinguish between FDA-approved vaccines and those that are actually being used to reduce the danger of Covid-19.

https://mustreadalaska.com/faa-warned-by-doctors-in-letter-describing-vaccine-hazard-health-faa-violations/

[rattman]

They think Pfizer and Moderna aren’t FDA approved…they say cominarty and spikevax have been approved, but Americans don’t get those (they are identical). I know when I got Pfizer here it was labeled as cominarty (the fda approved version according to ‘them’)

Because pfizer is the name of the company that make it. cominarty is its actual product name. Like boeing is the company name and 737 is the product

[belongamick]

I don't get why so many are against Pfizer, after all it's the same drug company that brought us Viagra. They've been looking after pilots interests for years!

[De_flieger]

Will be interesting to see how the FAA responds to this :rolleyes:

According to the letter signers, which include attorneys and medical doctors, the airline industry is operating in violation of Title 14 of the Federal Aviation Regulations, and related federal rules, which prohibit pilots from flying with non-FDA approved agents in their bodies, such as the Covid-10 vaccines, if those substances put the general public at risk for serious injury or death. The writers distinguish between FDA-approved vaccines and those that are actually being used to reduce the danger of Covid-19.

https://mustreadalaska.com/faa-warned-by-doctors-in-letter-describing-vaccine-hazard-health-faa-violations/
In the same way as NASA responds to people writing in with their new theories of perpetual motion machines, a quick glance over, an observation that it's a load of poorly thought through gibberish, a form letter reply and stifled giggles through the office.

[43Inches]

According to the letter signers, which include attorneys and medical doctors, the airline industry is operating in violation of Title 14 of the Federal Aviation Regulations, and related federal rules, which prohibit pilots from flying with non-FDA approved agents in their bodies, such as the Covid-10 vaccines, if those substances put the general public at risk for serious injury or death. The writers distinguish between FDA-approved vaccines and those that are actually being used to reduce the danger of Covid-19.


First the FAA will ask what is a Covid-10 vaccine, 2nd anyone taking that will probably be grounded as injecting fictitious or imaginary drugs is probably a sign of mental illness. Actually I doubt the FAA will go any further than glance at this rubbish as vaccine safety with regard to aviating was ascertained over a year ago. As with all other BS in this pandemic the evidence is really out there, I mean so many pilots have collapsed and died and planes are obviously falling from the sky in enormous numbers, or is the deep state hiding the burning wrecks as well?

I really want to find this place they hide everything, from 1000s of captured aliens and spaceships, to various ships, MH 370, Elvis and Harold Holt (probably still in the Russian submarine), the shooter on the grassy knoll, the control center for all the false flag activities to stage 911, the stage set for the lunar landings, Justin Biebers talent, Amelia Earhart and her B18, Hitlers ball that hung on the wall, The Grail, the world weather control LASER weapon, the mini/invisible nuclear powerplants that run each mile of maglev track and last of all Trumps tax returns for the last 20 years and so many other things that I have missed....Oh I forgot the 5 star day spa where Bin Laden, Saddam and Ghadaffi have been hanging out since their fake deaths. Oh and I couldn't miss Freddy Valentich who's now on the run from his thirteenth engagement.

[Ollie Onion]

Well the FAA specifically authorises Covid Vaccines for use with applicable stand downs so I don’t really see the argument. https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/pilots-and-air-traffic-controllers-may-receive-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-appropriate

[sagan]

I am pissed off at the hours I have wasted on CRM and HF crap.
This thread is the greatest example of groupthink I have seen.

[Australopithecus]

In your case, yes, wasted hours. There is no point being awash in data contrary to your preconceived notions and ignoring it all.

[SOPS]

First the FAA will ask what is a Covid-10 vaccine, 2nd anyone taking that will probably be grounded as injecting fictitious or imaginary drugs is probably a sign of mental illness. Actually I doubt the FAA will go any further than glance at this rubbish as vaccine safety with regard to aviating was ascertained over a year ago. As with all other BS in this pandemic the evidence is really out there, I mean so many pilots have collapsed and died and planes are obviously falling from the sky in enormous numbers, or is the deep state hiding the burning wrecks as well?

I really want to find this place they hide everything, from 1000s of captured aliens and spaceships, to various ships, MH 370, Elvis and Harold Holt (probably still in the Russian submarine), the shooter on the grassy knoll, the control center for all the false flag activities to stage 911, the stage set for the lunar landings, Justin Biebers talent, Amelia Earhart and her B18, Hitlers ball that hung on the wall, The Grail, the world weather control LASER weapon, the mini/invisible nuclear powerplants that run each mile of maglev track and last of all Trumps tax returns for the last 20 years and so many other things that I have missed....Oh I forgot the 5 star day spa where Bin Laden, Saddam and Ghadaffi have been hanging out since their fake deaths. Oh and I couldn't miss Freddy Valentich who's now on the run from his thirteenth engagement.

I just need to point out.. Harold Holt was taken by a Chinese sub.. everyone knows that.

[Australopithecus]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1309x1036/10a1d507_7121_4cab_b1c9_47c1a947e796_e1aff1303a8245c5c7f38ac e23078bb9940b0eb6.jpeg
This is one of my favourite examples of Aussie humour, intended or not.

[telomere]

I didn't think there were too many knuckle-draggers like Sagan left in the industry. Obviously I was wrong !

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

THANKS "Mick'....#26....BEST and 'most sensible' post thus far.....
Cheeerrrsss

p.s. Keep it up Mick....

[belongamick]

THANKS "Mick'....#26....BEST and 'most sensible' post thus far.....
Cheeerrrsss

p.s. Keep it up Mick....

Remember, if Pfizer can raise the dead, it can save the living...

[Aussie Bob]

Blimey Mick, all Pfizer have raised is massive revenue for their shareholders. Their vaccine is a total failure and a dud. Blind Freddie himself can even see that. The vaxed get and spread covid everywhere. Can't you read and interpret the news? Streth, we been shafted right royally. Look at the insane queues for testing, do you reckon they are all unvaxed? I doubt it very much. I would go so far as to say 99.9% have taken the vaccine in good faith. What a total let down. What a joke.

[43Inches]

Blimey Mick, all Pfizer have raised is massive revenue for their shareholders. Their vaccine is a total failure and a dud. Blind Freddie himself can even see that. The vaxed get and spread covid everywhere. Can't you read and interpret the news? Streth, we been shafted right royally. Look at the insane queues for testing, do you reckon they are all unvaxed? I doubt it very much. I would go so far as to say 99.9% have taken the vaccine in good faith. What a total let down. What a joke.

You do know we don't care about spread anymore because everyone is vaxxed? The numbers are high because everyone is out doing what they want and catching it, without the vaccinations the hospitals would be stuffed with patients at 100 times the rate, like what happened in Melbourne last year when you had a a 3-4% chance of dying from covid. Now its less than 1% and dropping, hmm wonder why that is, maybe it's because everyone is vaccinated....

As for making money, when you offer cutting edge technologies en-masse first to the world and only a few can do it, you make billions, Microsoft did it with computing, Ford did it with mass production, Apple did it with stupid people and many other things like Tesla is doing now as well.

[Aussie Bob]

Indeed 43, but we were hyped up so much. Remember 2 weeks to flatten the curve? Then 70% vaxed would give us herd immunity. Remember that line? Then we had to take the jab to protect the old and vulnerable but taking it offers them nothing at all Nada, zip.. Remember that coercion? We would be free to travel again. Blah Blah Blah. Empty promises all of them. Then we lost so many health workers who refused the jab that we have to shorten the isolation for the overworked sods who remain. How is a positive covid but vaxed worker better than a negative unvaxed worker?

We been led up the garden path for a product that promised so much but delivers very little. You can excuse it all you like. Some of us remember yesterday's hype though. You might say it has saved us from dying but many would argue. In the healthy population with a BMI less than that of a sloth, the survival rate is more like 99.9%

You can wax lyrical all you like but the old axiom, "you can't polish a turd" still springs to mind.

[43Inches]

I remember a crying polli saying no kids will live in poverty by xxx as well and many other statements from govs about many things. Inevitably the pollis are all sales reps selling ideas and notions to the masses, small bits of what they say get done, other stuff is just fairy land. If you get hung up on everything they say and don't look at whats actually happening then you get lost in the words. A virus does not play games, make promises or have rules, it does what it does, we react to it, pollis will say things to make it look like they are on top of it and we have answers. Saying that its some made up way of controlling us is just thinking like swimming through thick mud, rather look at what is happening globally and just relax and understand nature is just kicking us in the balls for a few years.

In the healthy population with a BMI less than that of a sloth, the survival rate is more like 99.9%

As has been said before a society is judged by how it looks after the sick and old, all you are saying is that you would fit in better with a horde of mongols in the middle ages than in modern society. A certain party in the 1930s also believed that it was better to just let the aged, disabled, sick and inferior just die as they were a burden to the rest of them.

[TimmyTee]

So you’re unvaccinated Aussie Bob?

[Hamley]

…with a BMI …
"you can't polish a turd"

BMI was invented by a mathematician and is medically irrelevant. But you know that because you have a high level of medical knowledge.

Have you presented your evidence to your local medical authorities Aussie Bob? You seem sure that they’ve made obvious mistakes, that you know what the problem is. Have you gone and told them?

[Hamley]

You might say it has saved us from dying but many would argue.

Who would argue? Disgraced chefs? Un-electable furniture salesmen? ‘Freedom fighters’ collecting thousands in ‘donations’ from people who have ‘woken up’?

Sorry to reply again but just noticed this gem.

[morno]

So you’re unvaccinated Aussie Bob?

I’d say unemployed as well, plenty of time to do all his “research”.

Maybe you need more time to research your own questions Bob, and work out how stupid you really are 🤦‍♂️

[Aussie Bob]

Ha ha, when you have difficulty with the message, you shoot the messenger 😀

43 excluded.

[Wizofoz]

Ha ha, when you have difficulty with the message, you shoot the messenger 😀

43 excluded.
Your message is a vaccine that slows the spread and drastically reduces deaths and hospitilizations is a 'dud".

And as you are the author OF that incredibly stupd message, taking aim is entirely appropriate.

[TimmyTee]

Ha ha, when you have difficulty with the message, you shoot the messenger 😀

43 excluded.
I do enjoy knowing that I don’t/won’t be flying with your crackpot-self anytime soon :)

[megan]

I'd take heed of these folk rather than anything Aussie Bob has to say.Covid-19 patients from Sydney's Concord hospital have shared their experience of the Delta variant's symptoms and pleaded for Sydneysiders to get vaccinated. Lung specialist Lucy Morgan shared the stories of 50-year-old construction worker Fawaz, 30-year-old pharmacy worker Ramona and 35-year-old tradie Osama in a video from Sydney Local Health District. Fawaz and Osama infected family members who have also been hospitalised, while single mother Ramona says she has been unable to see her children for weeks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKiPeAkXmys

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

At the risk of 'flogging a dead horse'.....

Had my 'booster' yesterday. Previous two jabs were 'AZ'. This one was 'Pfizer'

All good. Nil after-effects. Nothing at all. Just a very small 'bruise' where the skin was punctured.
Mentally....'I Feel Better Now'......Although we are yet to feel the full effect in 'The West'.

We will see what Feb 5th (?) brings.

[Ascend Charlie]

I had completed the 2 Astra-Zeneca shots, and then had a Pfizer booster after 4 months, but apparently I had already been infected the previous day. The symptoms were very mild, a little headachy and just fatigued, lasted for about 10 days. It felt like side effects from the booster, but was the actual disease.

Get the shots. Don't believe idiot fat slugs like Palmer and Christensen, who have their own political agenda to push.

[Eclan]

I had completed the 2 Astra-Zeneca shots, and then had a Pfizer booster after 4 months, but apparently I had already been infected the previous day. The symptoms were very mild, a little headachy and just fatigued, lasted for about 10 days. It felt like side effects from the booster, but was the actual disease.

Get the shots. Don't believe idiot fat slugs like Palmer and Christensen, who have their own political agenda to push.
Why? It doesn't work anymore. Even the manufacturers are now admitting that. You may as well wait around for the next one which should be out soon, maybe this year? Who knows... but for most people the current version is a waste of time. Maybe if you're obese or have heart issues it's worth doing and you'd be slightly better off than without it. For a little while until it wears off.

What are Clive's political agendas regarding the vaccines, Charlie? What are George's agendas? Anything you can put your finger on? Sounds a little conspiratorial.

Speaking of Clive and George, they should probably strongly consider the shot as they appear quite overweight. Just my opinion.

They sell you something which you didn't really need and which doesn't do what it's supposed to. Then when everyone finds out it doesn't work they tell you you have to buy it again (and again). Then, they blame the failure of it on the people who didn't buy it. Then they tell you if you don't buy it (even if it doesn't work) you can't go to work or to the pub. Then they get really angry at anyone who asks why it doesn't work and prevent them speaking about it by "cancelling" them. I think Aussie Bob has a point. Have the vac or don't have it, but don't judge others for their choices. Did you judge them on their choice re the flu shot?

As for how society treats it's old and infirm, this line has been trotted out a bit lately but long before covid-19 we already had an abysmal record on this: nursing home scandals, old people being ripped off, abused, not given proper care. Indifferent and absent relatives. Offspring more interested in inheritance than caring for their folks. Robberies and beatings of vulnerable old people in home-invasions, rapes even. The "pandemic" treatment saw even worse with old folks in homes deprived of visits by loved ones, isolated from their only friends in the homes, denied human touch by the people in spacesuits "caring" for them, denied decent funerals, you get the idea. That line doesn't really work.

[De_flieger]

Why? It doesn't work anymore. Even the manufacturers are now admitting that. You may as well wait around for the next one which should be out soon, maybe this year? Who knows... but for most people the current version is a waste of time. Maybe if you're obese or have heart issues it's worth doing and you'd be slightly better off than without it. For a little while until it wears off.



Why would you say this when it is factually wrong? It's not a debate or a matter of opinion or preference. Here's how it's looking in Switzerland at the moment. Pretty clear that, yes, fully vaccinated people, including ones that have had boosters, can contract covid and die, however it is at a vastly lower rate, as the existing vaccines provide a very significant level of protection. Deaths per 100,000 people are 48 times higher in the unvaccinated group than the vaccinated and boosted group.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1074x758/fjvma_50c67a0680ad997c9df6f05301cad79d7b190f91.jpg


As to the political motivations of Clive Palmer, being able to split off an angry set of both left and right leaning voters, and then direct preferences as best suits his political goals or be a kingmaker holding a couple of seats in a closely balanced parliament, is a fairly obvious one, and getting $2.91 for every first preference vote received is also a decent incentive for most political parties, although probably less so for one being bankrolled by someone of Palmer's wealth. George Christensen is retiring at the next election to start up his "pro-freedom news website" and youtube channel, so again he has a keen financial interest in keeping a high profile and keep the views and clicks coming in.

[43Inches]

As for how society treats it's old and infirm, this line has been trotted out a bit lately but long before covid-19 we already had an abysmal record on this: nursing home scandals, old people being ripped off, abused, not given proper care. Indifferent and absent relatives. Offspring more interested in inheritance than caring for their folks. Robberies and beatings of vulnerable old people in home-invasions, rapes even. The "pandemic" treatment saw even worse with old folks in homes deprived of visits by loved ones, isolated from their only friends in the homes, denied human touch by the people in spacesuits "caring" for them, denied decent funerals, you get the idea. That line doesn't really work.

If you believe in conspiracies then the next step is Soylent Green, you will have been conditioned to fear old age, you will get sick and die, you will get beaten, it's not worth living, so why not just die, and be turned into nutritious biscuits. If you think being mandated to have a vaccination is bad, just wait until you are mandated to die by a certain age, that is what you are alluding to. Old people cost too much, they are a drain on society, they don't work, are unproductive and cost lots in health cover and services. The record you mention with treatment of the old is not because we chose that route, it was reached by negligence, allowing a virus free reign to just kill the old and infirm is the same as consciously mandating an age limit by which we stop caring and let nature take its course. That is the difference between what happened during the pandemic and what happens in general, choice as to make a difference. I would much rather be mandated to live than mandated to die.

covid-19-surveillance-report-20220120.pdf (nsw.gov.au) (https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/covid-19/Documents/covid-19-surveillance-report-20220120.pdf)

That is the latest from NSW health, quite definitive data, for those that don't want to bother reading the statistics are as follows;

If you contract covid;

1. You are 9 times more likely to be hospitalised if unvaccinated. (the hospitalisation rate of unvaccinated was almost 10% of cases)
2. You are 15 times more likely to end up in ICU if unvaccinated.
3. You are at least 30 times more likely to die if unvaccinated.

That is including current strains and so on, so yes the vaccines are still very effective and yes the majority of deaths are still in the 70+ bracket with surprisingly still many unvaccinated dying.

[3 Holer]

Just to let you know Bob, legitimate Doctors and Epidemiologists tend to publish their research in academic journals NOT on You Tube or Dr Google.

[No Idea Either]

Omicron is a variant. More contagious but less lethal, I believe. Most of the vaccinated elderly deaths at the moment are waning AstraZeneca vaccines who have not been boosted, contracting Delta which is more lethal (delta is still around) But what if…..and we’re all pilots here very much engaged in the ‘what if’ line of thinking……what if the next variant is more lethal to say children. Will that change the antivaxers logic. The only way to avoid mutations is to beat the virus down and not allow it to spread right throughout the population. More chances for variants to pop up. So get vaccinated, then soldier on and live your life. Oh and pleeeaaassseee spare me the 5G, Bill Gates, Lizard people crap.

Incoming………Tin foil aka hard hat………ON:ugh:

[Wizofoz]

Omicron is a variant. More contagious but less lethal, I believe. Most of the vaccinated elderly deaths at the moment are waning AstraZeneca vaccines who have not been boosted, contracting Delta which is more lethal (delta is still around) But what if…..and we’re all pilots here very much engaged in the ‘what if’ line of thinking……what if the next variant is more lethal to say children. Will that change the antivaxers logic. The only way to avoid mutations is to beat the virus down and not allow it to spread right throughout the population. More chances for variants to pop up. So get vaccinated, then soldier on and live your life. Oh and pleeeaaassseee spare me the 5G, Bill Gates, Lizard people crap.

Incoming………Tin foil aka hard hat………ON:ugh:

The progrssive variations have been interesting but predictable. There is no actual evolutionary advantage to killing the host. Producing a condition where the host spreads the virus- such as sneezing or coughing- IS an advantage.

Therefore a varient that is more transmissable, but sickens the host without killing them, is going to become dominant- we've seen this with Dela and now Omicron.

It's probably in the sweet-spot where it speads like wildfire while keeping hosts alive- HOPEFULLY it's the peak varient.

[ampclamp]

Just to let you know Bob, legitimate Doctors and Epidemiologists tend to publish their research in academic journals NOT on You Tube or Dr Google.

university of facebook

[Eclan]

Thank you, Flieger, points noted.

Re the NSW Health doc, leaving the unqualified to interpret raw data is not ideal when people don’t understand the difference between relative and absolute risk.

43 inches said: If you contract covid;

1. You are 9 times more likely to be hospitalised if unvaccinated.
WRONG. From your document, at 13.5% the no-dose people are only 5.1% more likely to be hospitalised than those with 2 doses (8.4%). Hardly a damning figure.
2. You are 15 times more likely to end up in ICU if unvaccinated.
WRONG. From your document, unvaxed are 1.9% more likely.
3. You are at least 30 times more likely to die if unvaccinated.
Wow! Quite an alarming statistic. Fortunately, that myth is also busted. WRONG again. Your document says unvaxed are 0.2% less likely to die than two-dosed people. If that wild claim was true we’d be seeing hundreds of deaths per day given the admissions we are now seeing on how many deaths were of vaccinated people.

Using that system, if one unvaxed person was infected and died you’d tell everyone they are 100% likely to die of covid if they catch it without a jab. That’s the problem with people playing with stats they don’t understand. You have to be exposed to be infected and this is unrelated to vaccination status except to say that if you lock up all the unvaxed, only the vaxed are left to spread it amongst themselves.

The lack of impartiality of NSW Health toward the interpretation of their stats by the unqualified public is evident in their helpful note on P30: “The percentage of cases who died is slightly higher for those with two effective doses compared to those with no effective dose because elderly people were more likely to have received two doses before or during this period.” They don’t want anyone getting the “wrong idea” about an inconvenient stat which doesn’t suit the narrative. By default though they’ve illustrated where the greatest risk is.

Of course the stats above are almost entirely related to Delta and not the current strain so the numbers for the current times will be even more balanced.

Some condensed definitions from your document to help illustrate the misinformation:
“People with COVID-19 can be hospitalised because of the disease but may also be hospitalised for other reasons not related to their COVID-19 diagnosis. …reported hospitalisation counts include all people who were admitted to any hospital ward … around the time of their COVID-19 diagnosis. This does not mean that all … are due to a worsening of COVID-19 symptoms.”People who have bad covid experiences usually have other conditions, which often means hospitalisation. That should be obvious by now.
“A COVID-19 death is defined … as a death in a confirmed COVID-19 case, unless there is a clear alternative cause of death that cannot be related to COVID-19 (e.g., trauma).”
They are still allowing the unqualified and the wilfully pigheaded to incorrectly presume covid caused each reported death.

On the elderly, the comments on treatment of the aged are confused and aimless. You said anyone unvaccinated isn’t doing the right thing by our aged and should be judged, I said people have already done not-well by our aged and should already have been judged, you attempted to twist things with something bizarre about Soylent Green and eating people and lost the point.

The bottom line is, most people are vaccinated and the case numbers are still going through the roof. Aussie Bob pointed this out and everyone jumped on him.

Just get vaxed.

[Eclan]

Damn, you been owned, 3 Holer!

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

WRONG. From your document, at 13.5% the no-dose people are only 5.1% more likely to be hospitalised than those with 2 doses (8.4%).

Well, no. If one thing has a probability of 2% and a second thing has a probability of 4%, that second thing is 100% more likely than the first. Not 2%.


That’s the problem with people playing with stats they don’t understand.

Agreed.

[43Inches]

Sorry Eclan you are way off the mark, as I said IF you are infected with Covid, not for the total population, which is the issue here for vaxxed vs not.

As per the chart on Page 7 of the document

Vaxxed is 1% of cases hospitalised vs 8.9% of cases that are unvaxxed, that's a 9 times higher rate.

Vaxxed is .1% rate of ICU vs 1.5% of cases that are unvaxxed, thats a rate of 15 times higher.

And last of all you had to do some maths, because so few of the vaxxed cohort have died that it leaves you with a % well below .1%;

Vaxxed is 0.02% death rate vs 0.6% death rate, ie 30 times higher death rate.

BTW when considering stats the graph on page 7 is the only one relevant here as it covers the period from November 21 to January 22, therefore covering the figures during the latest outbreak.

SO sorry mate you are in with the amateur brigade in interpreting medical statistics and showing yourself as lacking.

I think you need to rethink how you interpret statistics as you have to match relative cohorts, the reason you say rates as XX times is because simply if you were to extrapolate the unvaxxed cases out to the same as the vaxxed cases you would have 23 times the number of deaths as the current vaxxed cohort. The reason I came up with 30 is because of rounding small numbers that multiply large figures ie .02 vs 0.6 when its more like .025% or so, in any case 23 times is still a huge rate more. It means that if the unvaxxed cohort were the size of the vaxxed cohort 1604 would have died instead of 67. WRT hospitalisations if the vaxxed cohort were unvaxxed the hospitalisation numbers would have been 23,000 vs 2,600 as is now. I think that should have made it easy enough to understand.

And before there's any piping up about 'but that's only for the infected people' etc etc, we are measuring the effectiveness of the vaccines vs the virus, so you have to compare statistics from only the infected population. Those 'yet' to be infected should follow a similar pattern. Other things that are not considered here are how many of the 'unvaxxed' had previous covid infection and also how many of the vaxxed were exposed to the virus but did not contract it.

People who have bad covid experiences usually have other conditions, which often means hospitalisation. That should be obvious by now.

Again we are comparing the same thing with only one major variation, vaccination status, so the rate difference between them is the effectiveness of the vaccine. Both cohorts will have a mix of conditions and ages.

They don’t want anyone getting the “wrong idea” about an inconvenient stat which doesn’t suit the narrative. By default though they’ve illustrated where the greatest risk is.

Of course the stats above are almost entirely related to Delta and not the current strain so the numbers for the current times will be even more balanced.

Some condensed definitions from your document to help illustrate the misinformation:

That statement was in regard to that final graph, which you used in error, if you noticed the vaccinated cohort was only 6600 or so, meaning mainly the aged and so in in the initial tranche of vaccinations, so they are warning that in that graph the distribution of cohort ages is inappropriately matched to be of statistical benefit.

They are still allowing the unqualified and the wilfully pigheaded to incorrectly presume covid caused each reported death.


Again irrelevant to this convo as above, both cohorts are subject to the same assessment of 'died with covid' etc.

[turbantime]

Eclan,
Wow just wow. You tried to get on your high horse and completely got it wrong. Oh look at me, I know how to interpret statistics and do maths! In reality, you just showed us your ineptitude.

[3 Holer]

Elclan and ampclamp, please let me know when your next performance at the Comedy Club is scheduled. I want front row seats
and am prepared to pay big bucks for the laughs :)

[ampclamp]

Elclan and ampclamp, please let me know when your next performance at the Comedy Club is scheduled. I want front row seats
and am prepared to pay big bucks for the laughs :)

I may need to ring a satire bell next time I post something taking the p1ss out of anti vaxxers and their moronic meme driven facebook research. How Elclan took that as 3 holer being owned I have no idea.

[Eclan]

Sorry Eclan you are way off the mark, as I said IF you are infected with Covid, not for the total population, which is the issue here for vaxxed vs not.

As per the chart on Page 7 of the document

Vaxxed is 1% of cases hospitalised vs 8.9% of cases that are unvaxxed, that's a 9 times higher rate.

Vaxxed is .1% rate of ICU vs 1.5% of cases that are unvaxxed, thats a rate of 15 times higher.

And last of all you had to do some maths, because so few of the vaxxed cohort have died that it leaves you with a % well below .1%;

Vaxxed is 0.02% death rate vs 0.6% death rate, ie 30 times higher death rate.

BTW when considering stats the graph on page 7 is the only one relevant here as it covers the period from November 21 to January 22, therefore covering the figures during the latest outbreak.

SO sorry mate you are in with the amateur brigade in interpreting medical statistics and showing yourself as lacking.

I think you need to rethink how you interpret statistics as you have to match relative cohorts, the reason you say rates as XX times is because simply if you were to extrapolate the unvaxxed cases out to the same as the vaxxed cases you would have 23 times the number of deaths as the current vaxxed cohort. The reason I came up with 30 is because of rounding small numbers that multiply large figures ie .02 vs 0.6 when its more like .025% or so, in any case 23 times is still a huge rate more. It means that if the unvaxxed cohort were the size of the vaxxed cohort 1604 would have died instead of 67. WRT hospitalisations if the vaxxed cohort were unvaxxed the hospitalisation numbers would have been 23,000 vs 2,600 as is now. I think that should have made it easy enough to understand.

And before there's any piping up about 'but that's only for the infected people' etc etc, we are measuring the effectiveness of the vaccines vs the virus, so you have to compare statistics from only the infected population. Those 'yet' to be infected should follow a similar pattern. Other things that are not considered here are how many of the 'unvaxxed' had previous covid infection and also how many of the vaxxed were exposed to the virus but did not contract it.



Again we are comparing the same thing with only one major variation, vaccination status, so the rate difference between them is the effectiveness of the vaccine. Both cohorts will have a mix of conditions and ages.



That statement was in regard to that final graph, which you used in error, if you noticed the vaccinated cohort was only 6600 or so, meaning mainly the aged and so in in the initial tranche of vaccinations, so they are warning that in that graph the distribution of cohort ages is inappropriately matched to be of statistical benefit.



Again irrelevant to this convo as above, both cohorts are subject to the same assessment of 'died with covid' etc.My apologies, yes, I used the earlier chart which had nearly 5 ½ months of data versus the six weeks or so in the P7 table you used. I did say it is more relevant to Delta. It appears you do understand statistics which is refreshing to see around here where many posts are simply white noise. Again, my apologies to you. Table 5 data are emerging and by definition don’t include the unknown but large number of people still incubating it which may well influence the pattern.

I understand you intended your post to refer to only those who got the disease. Fair point based on the data there however the outlook that “it works” is still erroneous as the table clearly shows the vast majority of known cases have two doses, out of proportion to vaccination rates. As a rough calculation in NSW against the population, the two dose cases are 3.5% of the two-dose population. The zero-dose cases are 0.7% of the zero-dose population. These are possibly slightly skewed as age isn’t taken into account but not by 5x. Restrictions may account for some of it however they are eased now so the fact of a quarter of a million two-dose cases says Aussie Bob was right.

Despite your % probabilities Aussie Bob’s comment is valid re deaths given the very small numbers – inho, obviously, as I’m not one of the elderly. I’d still recommend all measures for them however you can safely say most other people can breathe easy.

In the previous 48 hours 64 people in NSW died “with” Covid-19, three quarters of whom had two doses or three doses. Some had one. Less than a quarter had zero. Not a good proportion for the zero-dose, no, however given the small numbers Aussie Bob’s point still stands. Most of the <70yos had “significant underlying health issues” and given the explanatory notes and definitions you can see the death rate from covid is not what it is being held to be.

Table 5 indicates two dose cases at 75x the number of zero dose while in the general population two dose are only 15x the zero dose numbers. Aussie Bob was alluding to this in the bigger picture than just a proportional number.

The relevance is that for a total of “only” 88 deaths the effect of pre-existing conditions can massively sway the picture – in either direction.

[43Inches]

I have to agree the 'died with covid' thing is getting a bit silly, and really it's only used because they have no other way of releasing figures in real time, there seems to be about a 20-30% error factor for using this method. To ascertain cause of death this takes another week or so, and by then people are not interested in what happened last week, this is why the UK has the ONS which collates all the data and separates 'died with' (had covid within x timeframe) vs 'died of' (covid was listed on the death certificate) and releases regular reports on mortality, which includes well thought out covid statistics. Australia has the RBS which should be doing the same but is not really keeping up.

Personally I don't see the need for the general public to get boosters at such frequent stages, only those that are vulnerable. In any other case the residual run down of the vaccination is fine for most of the public out past 6 months, more than enough to stop you from getting seriously ill of die. That stats are proving that.

Table 5 indicates two dose cases at 75x the number of zero dose while in the general population two dose are only 15x the zero dose numbers. Aussie Bob was alluding to this in the bigger picture than just a proportional number.

That's obviously due to a number of factors, one being those that are vaccinated tend to be less careful about how they move around. Also there are not the clusters of unvaccinated in Australia like there is in the UK and USA where it spreads like wildfire and kills a vast number. Even the death rate shows that it has dropped to 1/4 of what it was during delta for the unvaxxed, which is again probably due to lower age groups and prior infections, although still nowhere near as low as the vaxxed population.

[Surreal]

I am someone who has been injured by the covid-19 vaccines. So before you put it all down to conspiracy theories, at least take the time to read my story:

I worked as a pilot in GA for 12 years, but I haven’t flown for about 5 years. I was working behind the desk but I had been toying with getting back in the air once things return to some sort of normal.

I wasn’t keen on getting vaccinated, as I have a healthy distrust of the pharmaceutical industry. My father worked for a few companies (Boots/ J& J) in a 20 yr period and he had told me quite a few horrid stories about their unethical behaviour. I am not, however, a conspiracy theorist or joined any protests. I just would prefer to focus on being as healthy as possible.

I had to get vaccinated because of the aviation job I had. I had my first jab in Aug ‘21. A couple of days later I started to get a weird pain in my face. It progressively got more painful and more frequent. Two weeks later and I was in agony. It was seriously the most painful thing I have had in my life. The first night that it was really bad, I couldn’t sleep and I sat up all night trying to diagnose myself by googling. I came across mention of facial pain and paralysis as possible side effects from Pfizer, listed on two foreign government websites. Since the timing matched up, I started to wonder whether it was from the vaccine.

I went to a GP. He got me to go to the dentist and check there were no teeth issues. The dentist cleared me and then the GP diagnosed Trigeminal Neuralgia (TN) He prescribed 2 nerve drugs but nothing helped. I found a few medical journal articles mentioning TN resulting from covid vaccines and brought them up with my GP. He said “I don’t know if it’s related”. I asked if I should get the second one and if it would get worse. He provided no help and said “I don’t know”.

The horrid pain persisted on and off, with no relief, except putting a heat bag on my face. They call TN ‘suicide pain’ and I can understand why. I did even think that if I had to put up with the pain long term, I would just kill myself.

I decided to try natural therapies to help, as the GP offered nothing except drugs that did not work. I tried quite a few things out of desperation. Not until I went to a Kinesiologist did the pain calm down and subside.

I left the second jab as long as I could, and had it at the end of October. Three hours after the second Pfizer jab, the pain came back. Not only that, the next day it also started on the other side of my face. Then I started getting itchy feet, then burning feet, then my calves would ache or just feel like they were on fire. Then I started getting stinging pain all over my body. Then my thighs started aching or were on fire. Over time the intensity and frequency has increased, and the more of my body is affected. Then I also started getting dizzy after trying a different drug. The dizziness has stayed even though I stopped taking the drug. It appears that it has had some sort of interaction with my vagus nerve, because my nerve system has been damaged. The dizziness doesn’t stop and I don’t drive.
The more I move the worse the pain is. Most of the time I have some level of pain. I still get the pain in my cheeks, but the pain in my feet and legs is the worst. Sometimes I can’t walk or stand up. My legs will feel heavy and on fire. Sometimes I can’t sleep.

The more I looked into it the more I realised that neurological problems were a well reported side effect, and articles were appearing in medical journals (including neurology journals) about the connection between the vaccines and nerve problems, which specifically mentioned TN and Small Fibre Neuropathy (SFN). Some were published as early as Feb 2021.

I tried to get an exemption for the booster but I didn’t qualify (very few people do). Pain is not sufficient, you have to nearly die. This meant I had to leave my office aviation job, as 3 vaccines were mandated and I couldn’t risk doing more harm to my body. I moved states and got a hospitality job, but I realised very quickly that I can’t work more than about 10 hrs a week, as all the pain gets worse with the more I am on my feet. I can’t do any more exercise than short walks. I can’t drive due to the dizziness.

No, I have not seen a neurologist, as I live in a rural area and there are none here. I am waiting on a date which will be in about 9 months, if I am lucky. All the GPs do is suggest different drugs.

My health has been ruined by the vaccines. I have never had any serious health issues before, or any nerve problems before. I have never tried so many horrid and serious drugs before, in desperation, to try and deal with the pain. I can’t think straight due to the constant dizziness. I am trying to finish a law degree and I can’t focus. I really don’t know if I can finish it.

I was not anti-vaxxer, but I would never get anther vaccine - EVER. I should have been able to get an exemption after the first vaccine, as there was sufficient evidence then, to show that it was negatively affecting my nerves. There was sufficient evidence to show that it could negatively affect the human nervous system.

My sister has also had an adverse reaction to the vaccines. She had to have 3 jabs for her job as well. She has neurological problems and they are even worse.

I have lost a job I loved.
I had to move state.
I am spending lots of money trying various alternative treatments.
I am not earning much money because the pain is too great.
I have connected with many other people who have the same symptoms.
Who knows how long it will take to heal, or before I can work more, or drive?
Who knows if I will ever be able to fly again?


So before you assume that everyone is a conspiracy theorist, think of me.

There are also many other people who have been harmed, but the media is not reporting and it looks like the only people against the vaccines are nutters and the anti-mask wearers. They are not.

Sometimes, you really don’t know, what you don’t know.

[JJ 789]

I am someone who has been injured by the covid-19 vaccines. So before you put it all down to conspiracy theories, at least take the time to read my story:

I worked as a pilot in GA for 12 years, but I haven’t flown for about 5 years. I was working behind the desk but I had been toying with getting back in the air once things return to some sort of normal.

I wasn’t keen on getting vaccinated, as I have a healthy distrust of the pharmaceutical industry. My father worked for a few companies (Boots/ J& J) in a 20 yr period and he had told me quite a few horrid stories about their unethical behaviour. I am not, however, a conspiracy theorist or joined any protests. I just would prefer to focus on being as healthy as possible.

I had to get vaccinated because of the aviation job I had. I had my first jab in Aug ‘21. A couple of days later I started to get a weird pain in my face. It progressively got more painful and more frequent. Two weeks later and I was in agony. It was seriously the most painful thing I have had in my life. The first night that it was really bad, I couldn’t sleep and I sat up all night trying to diagnose myself by googling. I came across mention of facial pain and paralysis as possible side effects from Pfizer, listed on two foreign government websites. Since the timing matched up, I started to wonder whether it was from the vaccine.

I went to a GP. He got me to go to the dentist and check there were no teeth issues. The dentist cleared me and then the GP diagnosed Trigeminal Neuralgia (TN) He prescribed 2 nerve drugs but nothing helped. I found a few medical journal articles mentioning TN resulting from covid vaccines and brought them up with my GP. He said “I don’t know if it’s related”. I asked if I should get the second one and if it would get worse. He provided no help and said “I don’t know”.

The horrid pain persisted on and off, with no relief, except putting a heat bag on my face. They call TN ‘suicide pain’ and I can understand why. I did even think that if I had to put up with the pain long term, I would just kill myself.

I decided to try natural therapies to help, as the GP offered nothing except drugs that did not work. I tried quite a few things out of desperation. Not until I went to a Kinesiologist did the pain calm down and subside.

I left the second jab as long as I could, and had it at the end of October. Three hours after the second Pfizer jab, the pain came back. Not only that, the next day it also started on the other side of my face. Then I started getting itchy feet, then burning feet, then my calves would ache or just feel like they were on fire. Then I started getting stinging pain all over my body. Then my thighs started aching or were on fire. Over time the intensity and frequency has increased, and the more of my body is affected. Then I also started getting dizzy after trying a different drug. The dizziness has stayed even though I stopped taking the drug. It appears that it has had some sort of interaction with my vagus nerve, because my nerve system has been damaged. The dizziness doesn’t stop and I don’t drive.
The more I move the worse the pain is. Most of the time I have some level of pain. I still get the pain in my cheeks, but the pain in my feet and legs is the worst. Sometimes I can’t walk or stand up. My legs will feel heavy and on fire. Sometimes I can’t sleep.

The more I looked into it the more I realised that neurological problems were a well reported side effect, and articles were appearing in medical journals (including neurology journals) about the connection between the vaccines and nerve problems, which specifically mentioned TN and Small Fibre Neuropathy (SFN). Some were published as early as Feb 2021.

I tried to get an exemption for the booster but I didn’t qualify (very few people do). Pain is not sufficient, you have to nearly die. This meant I had to leave my office aviation job, as 3 vaccines were mandated and I couldn’t risk doing more harm to my body. I moved states and got a hospitality job, but I realised very quickly that I can’t work more than about 10 hrs a week, as all the pain gets worse with the more I am on my feet. I can’t do any more exercise than short walks. I can’t drive due to the dizziness.

No, I have not seen a neurologist, as I live in a rural area and there are none here. I am waiting on a date which will be in about 9 months, if I am lucky. All the GPs do is suggest different drugs.

My health has been ruined by the vaccines. I have never had any serious health issues before, or any nerve problems before. I have never tried so many horrid and serious drugs before, in desperation, to try and deal with the pain. I can’t think straight due to the constant dizziness. I am trying to finish a law degree and I can’t focus. I really don’t know if I can finish it.

I was not anti-vaxxer, but I would never get anther vaccine - EVER. I should have been able to get an exemption after the first vaccine, as there was sufficient evidence then, to show that it was negatively affecting my nerves. There was sufficient evidence to show that it could negatively affect the human nervous system.

My sister has also had an adverse reaction to the vaccines. She had to have 3 jabs for her job as well. She has neurological problems and they are even worse.

I have lost a job I loved.
I had to move state.
I am spending lots of money trying various alternative treatments.
I am not earning much money because the pain is too great.
I have connected with many other people who have the same symptoms.
Who knows how long it will take to heal, or before I can work more, or drive?
Who knows if I will ever be able to fly again?


So before you assume that everyone is a conspiracy theorist, think of me.

There are also many other people who have been harmed, but the media is not reporting and it looks like the only people against the vaccines are nutters and the anti-mask wearers. They are not.

Sometimes, you really don’t know, what you don’t know.

Sorry to hear what you have experienced/still going through. It boggles the mind how something like this can be mandated in order to work. It has risks, some serious ones at that too.
I'm still having intermittent chest pains after my Pfizer vaccine. Had bloods done and echo cardiogram but couldn't find any abnormalities. Now waiting to get an MRI. A friend of mine also has confirmed myocarditis due to the vaccine. For a month after the jab I also had paresthesia down the left side of my body which was pretty scary and uncomfortable.
From my experience I would prefer to get covid. At least a dozen unvaccinated family and friends here in Perth have had covid over the past several months and they all recovered within days. While I'm still suffering the effects from this vaccine... I won't be going for my booster either. Quite frankly I'm scared of what long term effects may come to light in the years ahead. Time will tell if these mandates were the right or wrong thing to do. Especially for something that doesn't stop an individual catching or transmitting the virus...

[HappyBandit]

I am someone who has been injured by the covid-19 vaccines. So before you put it all down to conspiracy theories, at least take the time to read my story:

I worked as a pilot in GA for 12 years, but I haven’t flown for about 5 years. I was working behind the desk but I had been toying with getting back in the air once things return to some sort of normal.

I wasn’t keen on getting vaccinated, as I have a healthy distrust of the pharmaceutical industry. My father worked for a few companies (Boots/ J& J) in a 20 yr period and he had told me quite a few horrid stories about their unethical behaviour. I am not, however, a conspiracy theorist or joined any protests. I just would prefer to focus on being as healthy as possible.

I had to get vaccinated because of the aviation job I had. I had my first jab in Aug ‘21. A couple of days later I started to get a weird pain in my face. It progressively got more painful and more frequent. Two weeks later and I was in agony. It was seriously the most painful thing I have had in my life. The first night that it was really bad, I couldn’t sleep and I sat up all night trying to diagnose myself by googling. I came across mention of facial pain and paralysis as possible side effects from Pfizer, listed on two foreign government websites. Since the timing matched up, I started to wonder whether it was from the vaccine.

I went to a GP. He got me to go to the dentist and check there were no teeth issues. The dentist cleared me and then the GP diagnosed Trigeminal Neuralgia (TN) He prescribed 2 nerve drugs but nothing helped. I found a few medical journal articles mentioning TN resulting from covid vaccines and brought them up with my GP. He said “I don’t know if it’s related”. I asked if I should get the second one and if it would get worse. He provided no help and said “I don’t know”.

The horrid pain persisted on and off, with no relief, except putting a heat bag on my face. They call TN ‘suicide pain’ and I can understand why. I did even think that if I had to put up with the pain long term, I would just kill myself.

I decided to try natural therapies to help, as the GP offered nothing except drugs that did not work. I tried quite a few things out of desperation. Not until I went to a Kinesiologist did the pain calm down and subside.

I left the second jab as long as I could, and had it at the end of October. Three hours after the second Pfizer jab, the pain came back. Not only that, the next day it also started on the other side of my face. Then I started getting itchy feet, then burning feet, then my calves would ache or just feel like they were on fire. Then I started getting stinging pain all over my body. Then my thighs started aching or were on fire. Over time the intensity and frequency has increased, and the more of my body is affected. Then I also started getting dizzy after trying a different drug. The dizziness has stayed even though I stopped taking the drug. It appears that it has had some sort of interaction with my vagus nerve, because my nerve system has been damaged. The dizziness doesn’t stop and I don’t drive.
The more I move the worse the pain is. Most of the time I have some level of pain. I still get the pain in my cheeks, but the pain in my feet and legs is the worst. Sometimes I can’t walk or stand up. My legs will feel heavy and on fire. Sometimes I can’t sleep.

The more I looked into it the more I realised that neurological problems were a well reported side effect, and articles were appearing in medical journals (including neurology journals) about the connection between the vaccines and nerve problems, which specifically mentioned TN and Small Fibre Neuropathy (SFN). Some were published as early as Feb 2021.

I tried to get an exemption for the booster but I didn’t qualify (very few people do). Pain is not sufficient, you have to nearly die. This meant I had to leave my office aviation job, as 3 vaccines were mandated and I couldn’t risk doing more harm to my body. I moved states and got a hospitality job, but I realised very quickly that I can’t work more than about 10 hrs a week, as all the pain gets worse with the more I am on my feet. I can’t do any more exercise than short walks. I can’t drive due to the dizziness.

No, I have not seen a neurologist, as I live in a rural area and there are none here. I am waiting on a date which will be in about 9 months, if I am lucky. All the GPs do is suggest different drugs.

My health has been ruined by the vaccines. I have never had any serious health issues before, or any nerve problems before. I have never tried so many horrid and serious drugs before, in desperation, to try and deal with the pain. I can’t think straight due to the constant dizziness. I am trying to finish a law degree and I can’t focus. I really don’t know if I can finish it.

I was not anti-vaxxer, but I would never get anther vaccine - EVER. I should have been able to get an exemption after the first vaccine, as there was sufficient evidence then, to show that it was negatively affecting my nerves. There was sufficient evidence to show that it could negatively affect the human nervous system.

My sister has also had an adverse reaction to the vaccines. She had to have 3 jabs for her job as well. She has neurological problems and they are even worse.

I have lost a job I loved.
I had to move state.
I am spending lots of money trying various alternative treatments.
I am not earning much money because the pain is too great.
I have connected with many other people who have the same symptoms.
Who knows how long it will take to heal, or before I can work more, or drive?
Who knows if I will ever be able to fly again?


So before you assume that everyone is a conspiracy theorist, think of me.

There are also many other people who have been harmed, but the media is not reporting and it looks like the only people against the vaccines are nutters and the anti-mask wearers. They are not.

Sometimes, you really don’t know, what you don’t know.

When I started reading before you even mentioned Trigeminal Neuralgia I knew it was that. Having experienced this for 3 long years I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I didn't care if I died to ge honest as the pain was that intense.

I can understand you not wanting to get a booster as there does seem to be a link in your case. Having said that, the number of reported adverse events involving neurological involvement is very rare. Not wanting to diminish your experiences, including the other author noting ongoing chest pain, however the reason mandates were brought in at the time was that infective and more importantly the case fatality rate was high. Now, with the omicron variants, the CFR is much lower by factor of 10 to 100 and disease severity is lower. I believe the mandates were necessary at the time. Now, no.

As for side effects, I have witnessed no less than 10 people who have had covid and are dealing with long-Covid. As for vaccine related illness, I know of no one. Not to say it doesn't exist but if you compare the data on covid systemic side effects and long covid to reported adverse side effects from vaccine, the data shows significantly higher adverse events in covid infected vs vaccinated.

Vaccinations work. Yes there will always be risks, but the mRNA vaccines are incredibly safe.

[Wizofoz]

I am someone who has been injured by the covid-19 vaccines. So before you put it all down to conspiracy theories, at least take the time to read my story:

I worked as a pilot in GA for 12 years, but I haven’t flown for about 5 years. I was working behind the desk but I had been toying with getting back in the air once things return to some sort of normal.

I wasn’t keen on getting vaccinated, as I have a healthy distrust of the pharmaceutical industry. My father worked for a few companies (Boots/ J& J) in a 20 yr period and he had told me quite a few horrid stories about their unethical behaviour. I am not, however, a conspiracy theorist or joined any protests. I just would prefer to focus on being as healthy as possible.

I had to get vaccinated because of the aviation job I had. I had my first jab in Aug ‘21. A couple of days later I started to get a weird pain in my face. It progressively got more painful and more frequent. Two weeks later and I was in agony. It was seriously the most painful thing I have had in my life. The first night that it was really bad, I couldn’t sleep and I sat up all night trying to diagnose myself by googling. I came across mention of facial pain and paralysis as possible side effects from Pfizer, listed on two foreign government websites. Since the timing matched up, I started to wonder whether it was from the vaccine.

I went to a GP. He got me to go to the dentist and check there were no teeth issues. The dentist cleared me and then the GP diagnosed Trigeminal Neuralgia (TN) He prescribed 2 nerve drugs but nothing helped. I found a few medical journal articles mentioning TN resulting from covid vaccines and brought them up with my GP. He said “I don’t know if it’s related”. I asked if I should get the second one and if it would get worse. He provided no help and said “I don’t know”.

The horrid pain persisted on and off, with no relief, except putting a heat bag on my face. They call TN ‘suicide pain’ and I can understand why. I did even think that if I had to put up with the pain long term, I would just kill myself.

I decided to try natural therapies to help, as the GP offered nothing except drugs that did not work. I tried quite a few things out of desperation. Not until I went to a Kinesiologist did the pain calm down and subside.

I left the second jab as long as I could, and had it at the end of October. Three hours after the second Pfizer jab, the pain came back. Not only that, the next day it also started on the other side of my face. Then I started getting itchy feet, then burning feet, then my calves would ache or just feel like they were on fire. Then I started getting stinging pain all over my body. Then my thighs started aching or were on fire. Over time the intensity and frequency has increased, and the more of my body is affected. Then I also started getting dizzy after trying a different drug. The dizziness has stayed even though I stopped taking the drug. It appears that it has had some sort of interaction with my vagus nerve, because my nerve system has been damaged. The dizziness doesn’t stop and I don’t drive.
The more I move the worse the pain is. Most of the time I have some level of pain. I still get the pain in my cheeks, but the pain in my feet and legs is the worst. Sometimes I can’t walk or stand up. My legs will feel heavy and on fire. Sometimes I can’t sleep.

The more I looked into it the more I realised that neurological problems were a well reported side effect, and articles were appearing in medical journals (including neurology journals) about the connection between the vaccines and nerve problems, which specifically mentioned TN and Small Fibre Neuropathy (SFN). Some were published as early as Feb 2021.

I tried to get an exemption for the booster but I didn’t qualify (very few people do). Pain is not sufficient, you have to nearly die. This meant I had to leave my office aviation job, as 3 vaccines were mandated and I couldn’t risk doing more harm to my body. I moved states and got a hospitality job, but I realised very quickly that I can’t work more than about 10 hrs a week, as all the pain gets worse with the more I am on my feet. I can’t do any more exercise than short walks. I can’t drive due to the dizziness.

No, I have not seen a neurologist, as I live in a rural area and there are none here. I am waiting on a date which will be in about 9 months, if I am lucky. All the GPs do is suggest different drugs.

My health has been ruined by the vaccines. I have never had any serious health issues before, or any nerve problems before. I have never tried so many horrid and serious drugs before, in desperation, to try and deal with the pain. I can’t think straight due to the constant dizziness. I am trying to finish a law degree and I can’t focus. I really don’t know if I can finish it.

I was not anti-vaxxer, but I would never get anther vaccine - EVER. I should have been able to get an exemption after the first vaccine, as there was sufficient evidence then, to show that it was negatively affecting my nerves. There was sufficient evidence to show that it could negatively affect the human nervous system.

My sister has also had an adverse reaction to the vaccines. She had to have 3 jabs for her job as well. She has neurological problems and they are even worse.

I have lost a job I loved.
I had to move state.
I am spending lots of money trying various alternative treatments.
I am not earning much money because the pain is too great.
I have connected with many other people who have the same symptoms.
Who knows how long it will take to heal, or before I can work more, or drive?
Who knows if I will ever be able to fly again?


So before you assume that everyone is a conspiracy theorist, think of me.

There are also many other people who have been harmed, but the media is not reporting and it looks like the only people against the vaccines are nutters and the anti-mask wearers. They are not.

Sometimes, you really don’t know, what you don’t know.
Corelation does not equal causation.

[t_cas]

Corelation does not equal causation.

That is a cold remark.

Given the general state of the medical system in Australia, it is possible that these events are either not being captured, or are being treated with contempt.

The political pressure on the medical system is abhorrent. Add to this a regulatory overlord that threatens de-registration to those who may speak against the mandate.

When an individual has shared his concerning experience we each have a choice or our own.

To Surreal: It is very concerning to hear of your experience, thank you for sharing. I hope you are able to first and foremost recover your quality of life. Then as time goes by, be able to hold a class 1 or worst case class 2…. And be able to enjoy some flying again.

PS. To those who choose to cry conspiracy. If anyone ends up “unlucky” to have complications either from the vaccine, or from complications of Covid or Covid like syndrome; let’s hope your experience with the medical system meets with your expectations.

[Ollie Onion]

There is no evidence that any of those symptoms were caused by the covid vaccine, I know a single person who says the vaccine ruined his life and like you he was exceptionally hesitant and now suffers from generalised symptoms with no apparent cause that he has directly attributed to his vaccine. There was a Cardiologist who appeared on the news last week who said that he has had a 170% increase in referrals for cardiac symptoms due to people saying they are experiencing cardiac symptoms post vaccine, he hasn’t found a SINGLE case amongst the vaccine injured where they actually have ANY cardiac implications and said they react very badly when he tells them their heart if fine and they are experiencing anxiety related symptoms. You kind of lost me when you said ‘I stayed up all night to diagnose myself’ and I am having severe neurological symptoms but ‘I haven’t seen a Neurologist as I am rural’. Your story reads the same as the cases of people who are so hesitant that anxiety causes symptoms that are then made worse by more anxiety. I would suggest before you say the vaccine has ruined my life you might actually want to see a neurologist to diagnose if you actually have any neurological problems.

[Surreal]

Thank you Dr Ollie Onion for diagnosing. I really appreciate your medical expertise.

1. Like most people these days, when you get an unusual symptom, you get on Google and look things up. That’s what I did. I found 3 things that could have caused the pain - sinus, Trigeminal nerve, or dental. As I was googling, I came across a few medical articles which mentioned Trigeminal Neuralgia and that people had presented to ER after being vaccinated. I raised it to my GP as a possibility. I didn’t know. He didn’t know. He admitted it was a new vaccine and they just didn’t know.

2. The TGA now recognise paresthesia as an adverse reaction to Pfizer, which is one of the symptoms I have.

3. If people can’t get into to neurologists for months and months, how is it then neurologists can make a connection? How many people are there like me, who can’t get to a specialists and just have clueless GPs offering them drugs. The adverse effect reporting is very basic and captures only a small amount if information from people. Many doctors simply won’t report symptoms if they are not aware of the possibility of connection.

4. The TGA do recognise other neurological conditions as a side effect of the vaccine, one of these is Gullian-Barre syndrome. This is a condition where the immune system attacks the nerves, which can lead to breathing and walking problems. There are mild cases of Gillian-Barre and it could be that I have a mild case. The GP didn’t want to label it and wanted that left to a neurologist and after further test.

5. I have collected over 100 medical journals articles on the vaccine and neurological problems, and many mention symptoms exactly like mine.

6. Many people with long haul covid have neurological problems like mine. I haven’t had covid. So how do they know the symptoms are from covid and not from the vaccine? How is it that you immediately accept the position that the symptoms are a direct result of covid and yet dismiss the possibility that it came from the vaccine.

7. My symptoms started 2 days after the first vaccine, then came back 3 hrs after the second vaccine. Is that just a coincidence is it?
I have never had nerve problems and I was healthy up until that point.

8. I have been to 4 GPs. And none of them dismissed the possibility the the nerve problems I had were caused by the vaccine, they said they didn’t know.

9. In Feb 2021, the Pfizer report on adverse reactions reported 16 350 adverse neurological reactions. I have a copy of the report if anyone would like it. They range from mild to severe.

10. I have never had anxiety in my life.
But thanks to you I can put the pain and dizziness down to anxiety. I’ll just go away and sing kumbayah and everything will be right as rain.

11. You think you have been given the full picture and that we live in a society with a free-flow of information. That’s not true. There has been a deliberate censorship of adverse reactions, so most people think it is not happening. I met a woman whose immunologist admitted to her that they have been told to deny any connection to the vaccine.
She wouldn’t tell me his name, because he told her in confidence.

12. The number of people harmed will eventually come out. Unfortunately, it’s only weirdos like MP Craig Kelly and Pauline Hanson who are saying anything at the moment. I wouldn’t listen to those people either. If I wasn’t sitting here in pain, I probably wouldn’t have thought there was an issue. Ultimately, I just want to get better but if I can’t even see a neurologist, or if there is not even a consideration that the vaccine harmed my nervous system, how does one even treat it?

[t_cas]

Very good retort Surreal.

I understand exactly what you are saying.

inwould not wish it on anyone, and some of these responses are devoid of critical thought.

Keep your chin up.

[Ollie Onion]

No, it just makes no sense that you have lost a job, had your life ruined by these symptoms yet haven’t seen a neurologist. If you had gone to a neurologist prior to requiring a ‘booster’ and they had said the vaccine had not likely been the cause of your issue would you have then taken the shot and kept your job? I am very sorry that you have had these issues but you can’t just label it a vaccine injury, you admitted you were hesitent and stressed about getting the second shot and felt pressured to get it, what if your condition is triggered by stress and not the vaccine itself? You didn’t get an exemption because you obviously didn’t meet the conditions for showing you had an adverse reaction. You stated that you don’t trust the Government, Medical Professionals or the Pharmaceutical Industry and will never take another vaccine again yet you say you are not an anti vaxxer despit using their most common saying ‘I have done my own research’. I hope you get diagnosed and find effective treatment, you might be vaccine injured but it needs to be proven as just like was said above Correlation is not causation.

[dr dre]

Although it’s not disputed that vaccine complications exist, it is also not disputed that the complications from a vaccine happen at a far lower rate than those same complications when infected with Covid.

Myocarditis is at least 6 times more common (https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg25133462-800-myocarditis-is-more-common-after-covid-19-infection-than-vaccination/amp/) in Covid infection than vaccination. Other studies put it up to 30 times as higher (https://theconversation.com/myocarditis-covid-19-is-a-much-bigger-risk-to-the-heart-than-vaccination-174580).

Neuropathy? 4 times higher (https://idp.nature.com/authorize?response_type=cookie&client_id=grover&redirect_uri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nature.com%2Farticles%2Fs4159 1-021-01556-7) in infection vs vaccination.

I would say if the poster had gotten infected with Covid without vaccination the susceptibility of them to develop neuropathy or myocarditis from Covid infection would have been at least the same as from Covid vaccination, except in greater severity due to a more severe disease.

It’s a bit of a moot point, vaccination rates at 97-98% of adults across the nation. The public has made their choice.

[ElZilcho]

Whenever you multiply a very small number (chance of something happening) by a very large one (number of people exposed) you’ll get a result greater than 1. It’s just basic maths.

I have absolutely no doubt there are people who were (are) severely injured by the Vaccines, because with such a large global distribution, those “1 in a Million” or eve “1 in a Hundred Million” risk factors will result in cases higher than 1.
I also have no doubt that the numbers of Genuine Vaccine injured people are less than number of people severely injured (or killed) by the virus… but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

On face value, surreals experience looks quite genuine. Again, there are legitimate cases of Vaccine injuries out there… so unless they have a posting history littered with Anti Vaxx quackery, I don’t believe anyone should dismiss their experience outright.

2 years into this Pandemic I haven’t met a single person who has been Vaccine injured beyond the usual side effects.
I also don’t know a single person who has died of the Virus or even hospitalised by it. Though I do know a few who were quite sick, but at home.

Our own anecdotal experiences are quite limited and we’d do well to remember that. But I can’t ignore the fact, that the few anti-vaxxers I know through work happen to personally know dozens of Vaccine injured individuals. What are the chances?

[Lezzeno]

It’s a bit of a moot point, vaccination rates at 97-98% of adults across the nation. The public has made their choice.

Actually I suspect in many cases the politicians have made the choice for them via mandates

[dreamjob]

If anyone actually thinks the rate of 95%+ was achieved free from coercion, you're kidding yourself.

[dr dre]

If anyone actually thinks the rate of 95%+ was achieved free from coercion, you're kidding yourself.

The Melbourne Uni Vaccine Hesitancy Tracker (https://melbourneinstitute.unimelb.edu.au/publications/research-insights/ttpn/vaccination-report) had the percentage of Australians unwilling to be vaccinated at 6% of 18+ and unsure at 3% when they finished up in December last year. Although mandates did probably convince some to get a vaccine whereas prior they would have been hesitant we got 90% of the nation vaccinated of their own accord, and big drops in hesitancy were seen at points like more Pfizer becoming available and as more people saw others get vaccinated without adverse consequence.

And no one was “coerced”, you could choose not to get vaccinated and accept the potential loss of employment with that choice. Would you say denial of childcare spaces and government benefits to those parents who chose not to get their children vaccinated per the required schedule was “coercion”?

This is a debate that was concluded months ago. Be thankful Australia copped a softer blow than a lot of other places.

[ScepticalOptomist]

And no one was “coerced”, you could choose not to get vaccinated and accept the potential loss of employment with that choice.

Well coerced can be defined as:
“to compel to an act or choice.”

Sounds like coercion to me!!

[Lezzeno]

The Melbourne Uni Vaccine Hesitancy Tracker (https://melbourneinstitute.unimelb.edu.au/publications/research-insights/ttpn/vaccination-report)

From their website;

The survey is fielded every two weeks, and each survey wave contains responses from 1200 persons, aged 18 years and over.

1200 persons out of a population of 26,000,000 thats 0.004% of the population

[WingNut60]

From their website;

The survey is fielded every two weeks, and each survey wave contains responses from 1200 persons, aged 18 years and over.

1200 persons out of a population of 26,000,000 thats 0.004% of the population
Considering how difficult it is to get a reliable opinion out of an infant then your 1200 will actually be out of something like 15 million.
But that's pretty much how every survey works.

[mikewil]

Funny how being "fully vaccinated" was so important 3 months ago when the Australian government created an absolute circus over Novak Djokovic and the huge risk he posed to the Australian community if they let him in.

And 3 months later....all international arrivals are no longer required to be vaccinated, nor quarantine on arrival. Funny how the so called "expert medical" advice can change so drastically in the blink of an eye.

I regret getting my Pfizer jabs too as I have had intermittent chest pain since being vaccinated (as have many others that I know personally).

[HappyBandit]

Funny how being "fully vaccinated" was so important 3 months ago when the Australian government created an absolute circus over Novak Djokovic and the huge risk he posed to the Australian community if they let him in.

And 3 months later....all international arrivals are no longer required to be vaccinated, nor quarantine on arrival. Funny how the so called "expert medical" advice can change so drastically in the blink of an eye.

I regret getting my Pfizer jabs too as I have had intermittent chest pain since being vaccinated (as have many others that I know personally).

I don't believe it's overly funny. On your first point, it wasn't so much personal risk from the Joker. It was the public perception. At the time there were enforced restrictions at the border. If they let one person, particularly a celebrity, there would have been anarchy.
As for your second point, again not overly funny (I sense you have a warped sense of humour). The expert medical advice is dynamic. Public health is all about risk management. That's why the entire world didn't go into lockdown with so many more deadly diseases (think Ebola). At the time of Delta and high case-fatality, governments needed to be seen as doing something to minimise this ratio. Border restrictions and lockdowns, as well as personal protective measures were utlised and worked. The stats speak for themselves. As soon as that risk-benefit alters, so should and does the protective measures including removing the border restrictions. Thankfully now with greater immunity through either infection or vaccination, the disease severity has decreased, along with the pathogenicity of the the virus (eg. infects upper respiratory tract vs lower etc).

As for your last comment. For the upteenth time, it's not about you. It's about society. I'm assuming your wait for your 'cleared for takeoff' instruction before actually pushing those thrust levers forward. Why? Because if you blatantly ignored their (ATC) instructions, bad things happen to not just you but the 170 sitting behind your paddle-pop opening door, as well as the 170 plus you could collide with. My point is you follow the law with mandated policies for safety and minimisation of risk. It's the same with vaccines. Hospitals introduced Hep B, MMR, Varicella, Influenza vaccines (mandatory) to protect the provider, but more importantly the patients. It's not a conspiracy of the government or pharmaceutical companies to make more money. I didn't see Scomo retreating his arm as the cameras closed in on his biceps. Public good. Now I'm off to deliver food to the door of my son who has covid and thankfully a mild case in all likelyhood because he was vaccinated.

[swh]

Funny how being "fully vaccinated" was so important 3 months ago when the Australian government created an absolute circus over Novak Djokovic and the huge risk he posed to the Australian community if they let him in.

And 3 months later....all international arrivals are no longer required to be vaccinated, nor quarantine on arrival. Funny how the so called "expert medical" advice can change so drastically in the blink of an eye.

I regret getting my Pfizer jabs too as I have had intermittent chest pain since being vaccinated (as have many others that I know personally).

NJ never had any desire to ever comply with the requirements, he would have needed to have had his first vaccination 10 weeks before turning up, He would have had a lot more credibility with his case if he had one vaccination and then subsequently tested positive. However even when he tested positive he should have already had his second immunisation.

To hold a valid exemption in Australia the doctor that issues the exemption needs to place that on the Australian Immunisation Register (AIR), the same place the vaccination records are kept. However he did not meet the requirements to have an exemption on the AIR.

Hong Kong had a policy of zero COVID, locking individuals and communities up if they had COVID. The vaccination drive was low. At the start off the year Hong Kong had around 200 deaths from COVID, and a low community wide vaccination rate. Omicron got in and spread rampant, there is now over 9000 COVID deaths, overtaking Australia with a smaller population. 75% of the people who died were unvaccinated.

you can read the data for yourself https://www.covidvaccine.gov.hk/pdf/death_analysis.pdf

[mikewil]

As for your last comment. For the upteenth time, it's not about you. It's about society. I'm assuming your wait for your 'cleared for takeoff' instruction before actually pushing those thrust levers forward. Why? Because if you blatantly ignored their (ATC) instructions, bad things happen to not just you but the 170 sitting behind your paddle-pop opening door, as well as the 170 plus you could collide with. My point is you follow the law with mandated policies for safety and minimisation of risk. It's the same with vaccines. Hospitals introduced Hep B, MMR, Varicella, Influenza vaccines (mandatory) to protect the provider, but more importantly the patients. It's not a conspiracy of the government or pharmaceutical companies to make more money. I didn't see Scomo retreating his arm as the cameras closed in on his biceps. Public good. Now I'm off to deliver food to the door of my son who has covid and thankfully a mild case in all likelyhood because he was vaccinated.

There is an obvious difference between the necessity to follow rules like instructions given by ATC and laws made "in the name of safety" just for the sake of it. When we are constantly being given conflicting instructions state by state and month by month, it is no wonder that people don't trust the official narrative. Like to be considered a "close contact" of someone with the virus, the magical number was increased from 15 minutes to 4 hours. I wonder what "scientific" data that was based on. 4 hours sitting next to someone on a couch, or 30 seconds walking past someone who happens to sneeze at just that moment. Hey, I'd still not be a close contact of the second option there, rules are rules.

At my grandmothers nursing home they now have a requirement that in order to visit, you are required to wear both a mask and a face shield to prevent the spread of COVID to this vulnerable group of people, seems reasonable I guess...not of you consider that I can also pick my grandmother up and take her out and spend a day at a Westfield or a few hours at the MCG with crowds cheering and spitting all over her only to return her to the "safety" of the COVID free nursing home afterwards. Too bad if one of the hundreds of drunks projecting their saliva all over her at the footy happened to have COVID....oops, but better make sure I wear that shield when visiting. Rules are rules and always for good reason.

And about there not being some 'conspiracy' for pharmaceutical companies to make money. It is no conspiracy that a company wants to make money - as much of it as possible. Pharmaceutical companies do not want illnesses to be cured for the same reason that oil companies do not want electric cars to become viable and affordable. As far as a pharmaceutical company is concerned, a sick society is a profitable one, you don't have to be a 'conspiracy nutter' to work that one out.

[22k]

Corelation does not equal causation.

What?! Keep those fingers in your ears and scream as much as you like.

What you have just done is show how much of a moron you are, and subhuman.

Honestly, you’re so up yourself that you’d tell Stephen Hawking he’s got astrophysics wrong and that you know better.

Insufferably arrogant.

Surreal, god I feel for you mate, so sorry that has happened to you and I hope you’re able to make some sort of recovery from that. That’s just horrible. Don’t worry about the know it alls here who seem to know about your medical life better than you, they obviously aren’t liked by their families and have too much time to spend alone. I’m sure that they will tell you what’s wrong with you and how to fix it anyday now, as they all seem to be medical experts now as well as space shuttle pilots!

[Ollie Onion]

What?! Keep those fingers in your ears and scream as much as you like.

What you have just done is show how much of a moron you are, and subhuman.

Honestly, you’re so up yourself that you’d tell Stephen Hawking he’s got astrophysics wrong and that you know better.

Insufferably arrogant.

Surreal, god I feel for you mate, so sorry that has happened to you and I hope you’re able to make some sort of recovery from that. That’s just horrible. Don’t worry about the know it alls here who seem to know about your medical life better than you, they obviously aren’t liked by their families and have too much time to spend alone. I’m sure that they will tell you what’s wrong with you and how to fix it anyday now, as they all seem to be medical experts now as well as space shuttle pilots!

Yea because Stephen Hawking is the same as some guy diagnosing himself via Google, you Sir are the moron, the world is falling apart because lay people have decided they know better than the scientists and medical professionals. No one here is saying Surreal is not vaccine injured but are saying you can’t say that you are vaccine injured based on the fact you have had the vaccine, it requires investigation and a medical professional to show a link…l remind me again how many of the Doctors Surreal has seen have told him his condition was caused by the vaccine?

[t_cas]

What?! Keep those fingers in your ears and scream as much as you like.

What you have just done is show how much of a moron you are, and subhuman.

Honestly, you’re so up yourself that you’d tell Stephen Hawking he’s got astrophysics wrong and that you know better.

Insufferably arrogant.

Surreal, god I feel for you mate, so sorry that has happened to you and I hope you’re able to make some sort of recovery from that. That’s just horrible. Don’t worry about the know it alls here who seem to know about your medical life better than you, they obviously aren’t liked by their families and have too much time to spend alone. I’m sure that they will tell you what’s wrong with you and how to fix it anyday now, as they all seem to be medical experts now as well as space shuttle pilots!


Thanks for articulating my thoughts with more vigor…..

👍🏼

[Wizofoz]

What?! Keep those fingers in your ears and scream as much as you like.

What you have just done is show how much of a moron you are, and subhuman.

Honestly, you’re so up yourself that you’d tell Stephen Hawking he’s got astrophysics wrong and that you know better.

Insufferably arrogant.

Surreal, god I feel for you mate, so sorry that has happened to you and I hope you’re able to make some sort of recovery from that. That’s just horrible. Don’t worry about the know it alls here who seem to know about your medical life better than you, they obviously aren’t liked by their families and have too much time to spend alone. I’m sure that they will tell you what’s wrong with you and how to fix it anyday now, as they all seem to be medical experts now as well as space shuttle pilots!

So you believe co-relation DOES prove causation?

[t_cas]

So you believe co-relation DOES prove causation?

It would appear you are a binary type…..

Zero empathy.

[Wizofoz]

It would appear you are a binary type…..

Zero empathy.

No, I am very empatheric. But pointing out someone may be mistaken in their conclusions isn't being mean, it's being truthful.

[tossbag]

You lot are embarrassing. Novak has the courage of his convictions, he is risking more career wise than all of you. He hasn't backed down on what he believes in and it has cost him significantly legacy wise. Why are you threatened by someone who has different beliefs than you? Has he and others not the right to question science? That's what science is right? Or is it blindly believing a scientist, many who have got it seriously wrong over the covid period. If you are not questioning the science that is put forward than you are a sheep and I question your career choice.

(Double vaxxed, boosted, vaccination believer but not threatened by people who question the world they live in)

[Lloyd Braun]

This is worth watching for alternative opinions from credible avmed doctors

https://www.bitchute.com/video/AFe5osde2WjX/

[Ollie Onion]

‘Credible’ is a bit of a stretch.

[Lezzeno]

‘Credible’ is a bit of a stretch.

Which of the doctors in the video is not 'credible'?

[74world]

https://www.thedailyexaminer.co.nz/air-nz-accepts-covid-natural-immunity-exemption-for-pilots/?fbclid=IwAR25STSEuQduY3E8fYGZeyLUB1Mpjwjhhqn71eP39iXfNmVXgU BSoDzDyj0

👍👍👍👍👍

[tossbag]

Which of the doctors in the video is not 'credible'?

Exactly, who's credible? Who's not? And how do decide who is and not?

[dr dre]

Exactly, who's credible? Who's not? And how do decide who is and not?

Those in the above video:

A doctor who thinks vaccines contain anti-freeze (https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/574770-army-brigade-surgeon-claims-in-lawsuit-vaccines/amp/)

A doctor who threatens to ground those who had received the vaccine (https://thetexan.news/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Peter-Chambers-affadavit.pdf)

A lawyer who says the Covid Vaccine causes AIDS (https://wisconsinexaminer.com/brief/in-interview-sen-johnson-says-it-may-be-true-that-covid-vaccines-cause-aids/)


Generally you can determine who is credible by looking at the platforms where they get their opinions published and voices heard. And how much they are respected by their peers. Those featured in Hood’s video above are restricted to having their opinions posted on anti vax conspiracy sites and are not widely regarded by known medical associations.

[HappyBandit]

That was perhaps the biggest load of **** I have ever watched in my life. I seriously wanted to punch that so-called female Dr in the throat. I lost count of the number of times she mentioned, "Long term effects" Give me a break! How does she know the long term effects of anything she ingests on a daily basis? And it looks like she is well versed on that part. How does she know the long term effects of Covid? How does she know the long term effects of any of the new medications she prescribes? eg Fosinopril. The list just goes on and on ad nauseum. The answer of course is, she doesn't. No one does. It's not based on hope. If it were, it wouldn't have got past phase 1 or 2 clinical trials.

This video is nothing but fear mongering and non-correlative data with biases as long as my 10 acre yard.

[dr dre]

l

This video is nothing but fear mongering and non-correlative data with biases as long as my 10 acre yard.

The sad thing is they are giving false hope to those who lost their jobs, meaning they’ll pump whatever savings they have left into these frivolous lawsuits that have no hope of succeeding, and be penniless at the end of it.

[tossbag]

Well. It looks like you're stuck with these individuals and 'their' science while ever the state trains and licences them as medical practitioners. Believe the science. Pick your side and become a rabid evangelist for your side.

[Wizofoz]

You lot are embarrassing. Novak has the courage of his convictions, he is risking more career wise than all of you. He hasn't backed down on what he believes in and it has cost him significantly legacy wise. Why are you threatened by someone who has different beliefs than you? Has he and others not the right to question science? That's what science is right? Or is it blindly believing a scientist, many who have got it seriously wrong over the covid period. If you are not questioning the science that is put forward than you are a sheep and I question your career choice.

(Double vaxxed, boosted, vaccination believer but not threatened by people who question the world they live in)

It's fine to believe in a political system or a religion. But when you act and encourage other to act based on a "belief" whch is informed by mistakes, misinformation and misunderstanding of data, your belief is often harmful.

The idea the all beliefs are equal is not valid. It is quite possible to vehemently believe something and just br plain wrong.

[tossbag]

Athiest here. I don't belief in 'beliefs'

Science is the key, not blindly following it, but reading it, understanding it, questioning it. When all of these professionals are trained in the same science and there are contrary views what do you do? Unfortunately there are zealots on both sides that find it impossible to discuss, debate and argue the differing views. To my mind the rabid vaxxers are every bit as bad as the anti-vax crew.

And the moral high grounders tend to be the vaxxers. Given recent information on the vaccines you don't find it prudent to ask questions?

[Pinky the pilot]

I am at present unsure of all the details and will try to gain more information in due course but a local Bloke, whom I knew on a 'saying G'day' basis was earlier this week found dead in his bed, the morning after receiving a vaccination injection. Apparently his first one.

The fact that he was a Blackfella (and please, no tirades of abuse from anyone, because that is how he described himself!) may or may not have anything to do with it but I hope that the Post Mortem may reveal any causes.

He was a bloody good Bloke, a hard worker and will be missed by many locals.:{

[Ollie Onion]

Considering hundreds of people die every day I am sure it is not unusual for a percentage of them to have had a vaccination in the recent past.

[dr dre]

Given recent information on the vaccines you don't find it prudent to ask questions?

What would that info be?

[Wizofoz]

Athiest here. I don't belief in 'beliefs'

Science is the key, not blindly following it, but reading it, understanding it, questioning it. When all of these professionals are trained in the same science and there are contrary views what do you do? Unfortunately there are zealots on both sides that find it impossible to discuss, debate and argue the differing views. To my mind the rabid vaxxers are every bit as bad as the anti-vax crew.

And the moral high grounders tend to be the vaxxers. Given recent information on the vaccines you don't find it prudent to ask questions?

You listen to those qualified to interpret the information. You critically examine claims that are against the general consensus. They are not always wrong, but that's usually a safe bet. You realise there will always be a percentage of the population that will seek to not believe the majority view BECAUSE it's the majprity view, and others who will seek to exploit those people for personal gain.

It's fine to ask questions. The problems start when you refuse to believe the answers if they don't conform to your pre-conceptions. And i echo dr dre- WHAT informion re vaxxines? That 10 BILLION doses have been goen and it's proven to be one of the safest healh initiatives in history?

[Chronic Snoozer]

That 10 BILLION doses have been goen and it's proven to be one of the safest healh initiatives in history?

But you have to wait ten years before you can say that, don’t you?

[Wizofoz]

But you have to wait ten years before you can say that, don’t you?

No. Why would you think that?

[dr dre]

But you have to wait ten years before you can say that, don’t you?

When they talk about long term trials of vaccines they don’t mean they study test subjects for years on end and follow up 5-10 years after they’re jabbed.

Follow ups happen within months at most. Almost all reactions happen with a month or two of the trial vaccine.

“Long term trials” are because most diseases haven’t been recorded and monitored as in-depth as Covid. It may take several years to gauge how much protection a vaccine provides against a less common less communicable disease. This was not a problem for Covid, with large numbers of cases closely monitored it was possible to gauge the effectiveness of the vaccine quickly in the test subjects, who would number in the thousands or tens of thousands.

The long term surveillance after that is when the vaccine is approved and hundreds of millions and billions of people are jabbed. Then they try to measure the extremely rare effects, the one in 100 million effects, that will only arise when such a large number are jabbed.

It’s very simple science really

[Chronic Snoozer]

No. Why would you think that?

Hint: I don't. Should have used that sarcasm face.:rolleyes: There it is!

[Wizofoz]

Hint: I don't. Should have used that sarcasm face.:rolleyes: There it is!

Hehe- we ARE at the point where parody is indistinguishable from real opinion!!

[tossbag]

Given recent information on the vaccines you don't find it prudent to ask questions?

The continuing evidence and action against the questionable practices of some pharmaceutical companies.

[tossbag]

You listen to those qualified to interpret the information.

Have done that since the start.

You critically examine claims that are against the general consensus. They are not always wrong, but that's usually a safe bet.

Don't think I've done anything but that.

You realise there will always be a percentage of the population that will seek to not believe the majority view BECAUSE it's the majprity view

Bit of a generalisation there right?

and others who will seek to exploit those people for personal gain.

Human nature in every facet of life.

It's fine to ask questions. The problems start when you refuse to believe the answers if they don't conform to your pre-conceptions.

Preconceptions? How do you know it's other peoples preconceptions or a decision they've made based on the science?

That 10 BILLION doses have been goen and it's proven to be one of the safest healh initiatives in history?

Where did I dispute this? I think people have the right to make decisions that effect their own health and wellbeing.

[Wizofoz]

Where did I dispute this? I think people have the right to make decisions that effect their own health and wellbeing.

Yes. But we should work as a society to make sure they are doing so based on the truth, and expose when they are being lied to.

[Wizofoz]

The continuing evidence and action against the questionable practices of some pharmaceutical companies.

There has been none to suggest anything other than that the vaccines are safe and effective. So his is a good example- you asked, it's answered, topic closed unless new information comes to hand, right?

[tossbag]

Yes. But we should work as a society to make sure they are doing so based on the truth, and expose when they are being lied to.

100% agree.


There has been none to suggest anything other than that the vaccines are safe and effective. So his is a good example- you asked, it's answered, topic closed unless new information comes to hand, right?

I had the Astra vaccine, I did a bit of reading before choosing this one, the ongoing misinformation, in particular from the hysterical, incompetent, so called health professionals and government in QLD was bordering on libel/defamation. Yet the side effects of the pfizer vaccine were conveniently glossed over. People have the right to the side effect information of these vaccines without the hysterical rubbish from both sides, be it vax/antivax. And then make health decisions based on that.

You say 'safe and effective.' Yes, for the overwhelming majority of people they are. But there are some people that may make the decision, due other health complications or concerns that they are better off without the vax. These people are being vilified by vaxxers.

I don't care for the anti-vaxxers, healthy people that rant and rave about vaccinations are a special kind of 'citizen.' The extreme on both sides are as bad as each other.

[Wizofoz]

100% agree.




I had the Astra vaccine, I did a bit of reading before choosing this one, the ongoing misinformation, in particular from the hysterical, incompetent, so called health professionals and government in QLD was bordering on libel/defamation. Yet the side effects of the pfizer vaccine were conveniently glossed over. People have the right to the side effect information of these vaccines without the hysterical rubbish from both sides, be it vax/antivax. And then make health decisions based on that.

Had exactley the same experience, though the most stupid respose I got was from an anti-vaxer who said "You know Astr Zenica is now altering your DNA!!" There WERE missteps around AZ, and some things said that shouldn't have neen by people who should have know betere- BUT science did it's thing and self-corrected.

You say 'safe and effective.' Yes, for the overwhelming majority of people they are. But there are some people that may make the decision, due other health complications or concerns that they are better off without the vax. These people are being vilified by vaxxers.

Not by anyone sensible. People unable to take the vaccine have always been cited as a reson why people who CAN get vaccinated SHOULD> You mention people making choices for their own health. This glosses over the impact on others- particulrly those with conditions thatmean they can't take a vaccine, but are more vulnerable to the disease.

I don't care for the anti-vaxxers, healthy people that rant and rave about vaccinations are a special kind of 'citizen.' The extreme on both sides are as bad as each other.

There are always extremists in any argument. In this case, which extreme (all vaxxed v none vaxed) would produce the better result?

[Mach E Avelli]

Athiest here. I don't belief in 'beliefs'

Science is the key, not blindly following it, but reading it, understanding it, questioning it. When all of these professionals are trained in the same science and there are contrary views what do you do? Unfortunately there are zealots on both sides that find it impossible to discuss, debate and argue the differing views. To my mind the rabid vaxxers are every bit as bad as the anti-vax crew.

And the moral high grounders tend to be the vaxxers. Given recent information on the vaccines you don't find it prudent to ask questions?

Fellow atheist here.
I am not a complete moral high grounder, not rabid (except in my opinions on religion and Putin), but firmly pro-vax. With very much the attitude that natural selection will take care of those who are destined for an early departure from this mortal coil, whether due bad luck or stupidity. Having access to vaccines surely defers that date for a good proportion of the population, though we have to accept that vaccines won’t work for everyone.
But to relate personal experience of two 'elderly' people (70+). Wife had all 4 shots of Pfizer at the recommended intervals. I had two of AZ then the two Pfizer boosters, also at the recommended intervals. A few months after the second booster wife got covid from a close contact in the workplace. I could have avoided her by staying on my boat, but chose to go home and see how long it would take to catch it, because I really did not want to have a later scheduled overseas holiday spoiled. I was seeking the 12 week immunity on offer (though of course not guaranteed) which supposedly follows recovery.
After two days, I tested positive, but with no symptoms. Mild symptoms 24 hours later. Neither of us had symptoms any worse than those of a common cold, and by day 7 of our respective isolation periods we were absolutely fine.
I appreciate that good luck,(or genes) may have played a part, but I also dips me lid to the scientists who brought us vaccines so quickly.

[Pinky the pilot]

Re my post, #106; I have since been able to discover that the Person referred to in that post had had BOTH Vaccinations injections and had had the booster injection the day before his unfortunate demise.

Apparently, and admittedly so far it is only hearsay, he had had reactions to both the initial vaccinations, the severity of the reactions increasing with each subsequent jab.

I will endeavor to find out more information in due course.

[HappyBandit]

Fellow atheist here.
I am not a complete moral high grounder, not rabid (except in my opinions on religion and Putin), but firmly pro-vax. With very much the attitude that natural selection will take care of those who are destined for an early departure from this mortal coil, whether due bad luck or stupidity. Having access to vaccines surely defers that date for a good proportion of the population, though we have to accept that vaccines won’t work for everyone.
But to relate personal experience of two 'elderly' people (70+). Wife had all 4 shots of Pfizer at the recommended intervals. I had two of AZ then the two Pfizer boosters, also at the recommended intervals. A few months after the second booster wife got covid from a close contact in the workplace. I could have avoided her by staying on my boat, but chose to go home and see how long it would take to catch it, because I really did not want to have a later scheduled overseas holiday spoiled. I was seeking the 12 week immunity on offer (though of course not guaranteed) which supposedly follows recovery.
After two days, I tested positive, but with no symptoms. Mild symptoms 24 hours later. Neither of us had symptoms any worse than those of a common cold, and by day 7 of our respective isolation periods we were absolutely fine.
I appreciate that good luck,(or genes) may have played a part, but I also dips me lid to the scientists who brought us vaccines so quickly.

Finally, I well considered and appropriate post. Thank you Mach. I concur with your assessment of the science. We are very fortunate. The wheels are in motion for an Omicron specific vaccine as we speak too. I've seen first-hand both the positive attributes of those vaccinated and boostered, as well as those that opted for selfish attitudes. The latter definitely fair far worse. And when offered medication (eg. antivirals, convalescent sera, Mab's etc), not one have I heard say to me, "Do you know what the long-term effects are of those drugs?"

[magyarflyer]

here (myself) An AME MD having had all 4 series Modena and pfizer doing a locum last December the boss (74) rabid antivaxer rx ivermectin and additional drugs to all his patients we were seeing 30-40 pts a day with Covid +….
one month later he tested + and after agonizing 5 weeks on a ventilator family turned off the machine.
just got back from London and became + on arrival business class caught mild symptoms on plaxovid did not seem to make much difference
to each his own. Most of patients in clinic who had vaccines had mild sx, those unvaccinated did not fare well
we could tell by simply checking oxymeter readings …I am same age as was the boss
Medicine is an art rather than science

[Bend alot]

From 1 April 2022 QLD has 651 reported covid deaths, WA has 393 over the same period.

WA has about half the population of QLD so you would expect closer to 326 - even lower as WA has about a 20% higher vax rate than QLD.

Both states had single digit numbers before opening borders.

[27/09]

It's genuinely scary that people possibly even as stupid as this could be allowed access to a cockpit.
Looks like jamsession only joined to spread misinformation. One post made, one post full of tripe.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Looks like jamsession only joined to spread misinformation.

Or to rectify a perceived satire shortfall. “Vaccine-informed” is a good one, though. :D

[Bend alot]

From 1 April 2022 QLD has 651 reported covid deaths, WA has 393 over the same period.

WA has about half the population of QLD so you would expect closer to 326 - even lower as WA has about a 20% higher vax rate than QLD.

Both states had single digit numbers before opening borders.
I guess this does not meet the narrative of the "the vaccines save lives" or the under vaxed are over represented in hospitals.

https://covidlive.com.au/report/daily-deaths/wa
https://covidlive.com.au/report/daily-deaths/qld
Oh and QLD had far more Delta than WA.

[das Uber Soldat]

It was a first post so call me crazy but you know there are non pilots in here?
Yeh, though in my experience most of the Karens that sport this type of non-sequitur garbage typically remain within the walls of their enclose, ie Facebook.

My moneys on one of the clowns who got shown the door last year for refusing the vaccine and is now super salty about it. Hence the burner account and obvious emotional investment in pure nonsense.

Given this..

"An unlawful dismissal claim brought by 12 former employees of Virgin Australia and Jetstar who were sacked after failing to get vaccinated against COVID-19 is “unintelligible and rambling”, the Federal Court has heard."

Remind you of someone? :E

[cxflog]

Remind you of someone? :E
Sums it up almost to a T!

They really should stick to Facebook, it’s embarrassing seeing that nonsense on here

[Bend alot]

Sums it up almost to a T!

They really should stick to Facebook, it’s embarrassing seeing that nonsense on here
You have a issue with my excel math?

Or the data collection points?

Or you just jab to keep a job?

Tested they are not - they got the MAX approval.

Certainly never tested in Australia only stamped with data from the manufacturer (self reporting).

[Jamsession]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It’s encumbent on you to provide the sources and evidence my friend.

That's a transparent self-disclosing lie then, isn't it?

[Bend alot]

I am not a big fan of censorship but this thread needs to be not just shut down but removed.
I doubt your truthful - many court cases in Oz states (even frontline workers) - are based on censorship and blind faith of unelected officials, by governments with zero qualifications that elect the officials.

Are starting to be heard - heavily defended by the government/s

[Sal-e]

https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/5.3.6-postmarketing-experience.pdf

Page 30 onwards is a side effects box of chocolates. All 1,291 of them. Gotta wonder why Pfizer tried to gag this info until 2085!

[dr dre]

https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/5.3.6-postmarketing-experience.pdf

Page 30 onwards is a side effects box of chocolates. All 1,291 of them. Gotta wonder why Pfizer tried to gag this info until 2085!

Since Dec 2020 when the first Covid vaccine was developed there have been a multitude of rubbish anti vax propaganda links posted on this forum, and that one is no exception.

And like every single one of them that link above is easily debunked:

A scheduling dispute related to an FOIA request for COVID-19 vaccine data was misconstrued on social media. (https://www.snopes.com/news/2021/11/19/fda-2076-vaccine-data/)

Pfizer documents do not reveal dangers of Covid-19 vaccine (https://factcheck.afp.com/doc.afp.com.329Y6J4)

So we've had 98%+ of Australian adults receive at least one vaccine dose. Pretty much everyone in the industry except the incredibly small handful (maybe 0.2%) who chose not to have it. Now I don't like using anecdotes as evidence but apart from a bit of unwellness for a day after I've not heard of anyone in the industry suffering long term effects from vaccination. Out of many people I know outside the industry none have had severe long lasting after effects from vaccination.

[Sal-e]

I’d best start fact checking these fact checkers?
But riddle me this. For all you “gotta get boosted coz the virus MUTATES” mob…with the SAME shot…for the ORIGINAL strain…4th booster. What am I missing? Insanity comes to mind.

[umop apisdn]

I’d best start fact checking these fact checkers?
But riddle me this. For all you “gotta get boosted coz the virus MUTATES” mob…with the SAME shot…for the ORIGINAL strain…4th booster. What am I missing? Insanity comes to mind.

What are you missing? A perfectly logical question to ask. Thinking you already have the answer. Insanity.

[glekichi]

Not only that, but anecdotally it would seem that regions/nations with high booster rates are having the highest numbers of cases/deaths. Not that Ive done any kind of study, but comparing where I live (Japan - low boost rates, low covid deaths despite literally including traffic accidents in the numbers in half the prefectures, ageing population, high population density, lots of mass transit) vs where my parents live back home (New Zealand - sparse population, no public transport, very high booster rates, higher deaths per capita, higher case numbers per capita), it certainly seems the shot designed for the original strain isn't helping with Omicron.

New Zealand is recording roughly the same number of daily deaths despite having 1/25th the population and being much much more 'boosted'.
Infections are 3x higher per captita... deaths are 25x higher per captita...
New Zealand 96% 2x vaxxinated, 76% 3x or more
Japan 76% 2x vaccinated, 60% 3x or more.

[Bend alot]

Not only that, but anecdotally it would seem that regions/nations with high booster rates are having the highest numbers of cases/deaths. Not that Ive done any kind of study, but comparing where I live (Japan - low boost rates, low covid deaths despite literally including traffic accidents in the numbers in half the prefectures, ageing population, high population density, lots of mass transit) vs where my parents live back home (New Zealand - sparse population, no public transport, very high booster rates, higher deaths per capita, higher case numbers per capita), it certainly seems the shot designed for the original strain isn't helping with Omicron.

New Zealand is recording roughly the same number of daily deaths despite having 1/25th the population and being much much more 'boosted'.
Infections are 3x higher per captita... deaths are 25x higher per captita...
New Zealand 96% 2x vaxxinated, 76% 3x or more
Japan 76% 2x vaccinated, 60% 3x or more.
Your example is one of many - but gets mostly ignored.

[Wizofoz]

Your example is one of many - but gets mostly ignored.
The older strains still exist, and current boosters are effective against then. the vacccines ARE being constatly developed, and the latest ones will be aimed at the newer varients.
No-one says any of this is perfect, but the veilied idea that it's all some kind of con is where it gets silly.

[Sal-e]

The older strains still exist, and current boosters are effective against then. the vacccines ARE being constatly developed, and the latest ones will be aimed at the newer varients.
No-one says any of this is perfect, but the veilied idea that it's all some kind of con is where it gets silly.

Never said it is one big con job. Just asking logical questions and you gave a reasonably logical answer. But..if you’re being vaccinated for the original strain, why should you be again boosted for the original strain? Is the vaccine’s effectiveness ultra short-term? At this rate, can we see a 10th booster by this time next year? I’m fast likening this to the majority of profits made by Airbus in their maintenance/parts business..but for big pharma. So yeah, no con there. So, why then are boosters being PUSHED to combat variants? Are they withholding the “..constantly developed” batches for when the current batches are used up? Sounds like a sound business plan.
In any case, you’re right. This whole charade is not perfect. And I take a massive issue on that. 1, because we have stood our industry and livelihoods and indeed the county’s economy and personal freedoms on it’s head with a solution that hasn’t worked and most importantly 2. we’ve had to inject this crap into our bodies as many times as our employers required in order to keep working for them.

[BuzzBox]

Is the vaccine’s effectiveness ultra short-term?...So, why then are boosters being PUSHED to combat variants? Are they withholding the “..constantly developed” batches for when the current batches are used up?

As I understand it, the current vaccines (designed for the original variant/s) still provide good long-term effectiveness against severe illness/death caused by the newer variants, but only short-term effectiveness (perhaps a month) against infection. Boosters are being 'pushed' to prevent the health system from becoming overloaded over the winter period, when other illnesses such as the 'flu are far more prevalent, resulting in more hospital admissions. They are also being pushed in an attempt to keep the number of cases (and employee absences due to isolation requirements) as low as reasonably practical.

Vaccines are not being "constantly developed [in] batches" to keep up with the new variants. The vaccines that are currently available were designed for the original variant/s and there are new vaccines under trial for one of the earlier Omicron variants (BA.3 as I recall). A multi-variant vaccine is also under development. The problem is that it takes time for new vaccines to be designed, manufactured and trialled, and the virus keeps mutating faster than new vaccines can be developed. As a result, the vaccine manufacturers and regulators are always a step or two behind the virus. It is by no means a perfect system, but it's the best we've got.

[Wizofoz]

Never said it is one big con job. Just asking logical questions and you gave a reasonably logical answer. But..if you’re being vaccinated for the original strain, why should you be again boosted for the original strain? Is the vaccine’s effectiveness ultra short-term? At this rate, can we see a 10th booster by this time next year? I’m fast likening this to the majority of profits made by Airbus in their maintenance/parts business..but for big pharma. So yeah, no con there. So, why then are boosters being PUSHED to combat variants? Are they withholding the “..constantly developed” batches for when the current batches are used up? Sounds like a sound business plan.
In any case, you’re right. This whole charade is not perfect. And I take a massive issue on that. 1, because we have stood our industry and livelihoods and indeed the county’s economy and personal freedoms on it’s head with a solution that hasn’t worked and most importantly 2. we’ve had to inject this crap into our bodies as many times as our employers required in order to keep working for them.


1,000,000 Americans are dead. If America had dealt with this as we did, something like 700,000 of them would still be alive. We, yes imperfectly (as is anythng) did our best under the circumstances and no doubt a lot of people are still with us as a result. Exactley who would you have been OK with dying who didn't? It DID work, every but as well as could have been hoped.
And "This crap" has been a huge part in making it work.

[Bend alot]

1,000,000 Americans are dead. If America had dealt with this as we did, something like 700,000 of them would still be alive. We, yes imperfectly (as is anythng) did our best under the circumstances and no doubt a lot of people are still with us as a result. Exactley who would you have been OK with dying who didn't? It DID work, every but as well as could have been hoped.
And "This crap" has been a huge part in making it work.
Oh the USA!

As you can clearly see above - The We Did It Better.

WA far tighter iron ring and vax rates v QLD far less restrictive and if I recall not even a booster program when they opened.

Yet WA has higher per capita death rate than QLD (admit QLD has had a bad week/wave, but WA will follow).

If you look it up they have had a Omnicron vax - but they do not want to use it as the virus is too similar and they fear if it is too close to the previous and after a while your imune system will think it is the same as the last & not trigger the spike protein response (crying wolf).

[Troo believer]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-21/third-of-victorias-2022-covid-19-deaths-unvaccinated/101253540

Between January 1 and June 28 there were 2,171 deaths in the state related to COVID-19, just over half of the more than 4,200 such deaths recorded in Victoria since the pandemic began
The data — provided to the ABC by Victoria's health department — showed that 799 people (37 per cent) who died during that period of time with COVID-19 had received no vaccine doses, while just 58 (3 per cent) of those who died had received four vaccine doses.

[lucille]

What worries me is the goalpost shifting of the outcomes of vaccination.

Early on Pfizer claimed 96% efficacy in preventing Covid infections. Now, it’s all about minimising the symptoms, not actually stopping it.

So, as I write, I’m Covid positive with three boosters (I.e. 4 jabs in total). The ONLY people, I personally know who have tested positive have also had 4 jabs. What are the odds? Should I go buy a lotto ticket?

Oh, and by the way, the symptoms are less than mild. A slight cough, croaky voice and a runny nose. 4 months ago, I caught a head cold which was many times worse and I didn’t have to self isolate.

I suspect a lot of these Covid horror stories in the news lack the inclusion of that one vital word: Co-morbidities.

[clark y]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-21/third-of-victorias-2022-covid-19-deaths-unvaccinated/101253540

Interesting that the 799 who passed away with Covid are list in the table as "Unvaccinated/unknown". What does "unknown" mean? Unknown needs to be separated.

[ElZilcho]

What worries me is the goalpost shifting of the outcomes of vaccination.

Early on Pfizer claimed 96% efficacy in preventing Covid infections. Now, it’s all about minimising the symptoms, not actually stopping it.

So, as I write, I’m Covid positive with three boosters (I.e. 4 jabs in total). The ONLY people, I personally know who have tested positive have also had 4 jabs. What are the odds? Should I go buy a lotto ticket?

Oh, and by the way, the symptoms are less than mild. A slight cough, croaky voice and a runny nose. 4 months ago, I caught a head cold which was many times worse and I didn’t have to self isolate.

I suspect a lot of these Covid horror stories in the news lack the inclusion of that one vital word: Co-morbidities.

That was always going to happen as the virus mutated. Early on we were dealing with the Alpha strain, now we’re up to Omicron BA.5 which I believe has an R0 value around 18 compared to Alpha’s 3 and Delta’s 6. It’s basically up there with measles in terms of transmission rate.

Have you thought that maybe the reason why you only had a mild case of COVID was because of the vaccine rather than in spite of? I’ve had 3 doses and COVID was also a non event for me. For what it’s worth, I won’t be getting a 4th unless there’s a new Vaccine.

What are the odds that vaccinated people are catching COVID? Pretty bloody high given most of the population is vaccinated and we know it does little in terms of transmission of Omicron. If we’re looking at anecdotal evidence, I personally only know a single person who isn’t vaccinated and they were off work sick for nearly 3 weeks. Definitely wasn’t COVID though, if you don’t test then did you ever really have it?

Getting really tired of people overplaying co morbidities and underlying conditions as if they were a death sentence anyway. Most people who die of the Flu actually die from pneumonia caused by the Flu. Sure it’s mostly oldies, as that’s the case with any illness, it always kills the old and the sick at a higher rate. But plenty of people live perfectly healthy lives with their underlying conditions (such as asthma) before COVID came along.

I don’t support lockdowns or mandates, but we can call out political BS without trying to twist the data around vaccines.

[Eclan]

So you believe co-relation DOES prove causation?
Corelation does not equal causation.
And many others....

My god, man, you don't even know how to spell many of the words you try to use and yet you won't give up. I'm not convinced you even know what they mean. Ceaseless inanities, wrongly spelt, trying to win your internet argument. It's embarrassing. Reminds me of that Chester the Terrier in Looney Tunes, bouncing and yapping along beside, trying to get attention and never quitting. Please spare us!

[das Uber Soldat]

I don't think English is his first language.

[Wizofoz]

And many others....

My god, man, you don't even know how to spell many of the words you try to use and yet you won't give up. I'm not convinced you even know what they mean. Ceaseless inanities, wrongly spelt, trying to win your internet argument. It's embarrassing. Reminds me of that Chester the Terrier in Looney Tunes, bouncing and yapping along beside, trying to get attention and never quitting. Please spare us!

Actually, those posts lead to some meaningful and frank exchanges which, while not resolving all disagreements, led to some concensus and mutual repect. People able to engage and share views can often lead to some very fulfilling and interesting interactions, for those willing and able to do so.

This doesn't incluse you, obvioulsy...

[Wizofoz]

I don't think English is his first language.

I make you look foolish on one thread so you get a dig in in another.

Brave....

[das Uber Soldat]

I make you look foolish on one thread so you get a dig in in another.

Brave....
Again with the unnecessary aggression. I was actually defending you here.

As for the other thread, I'm not entirely sure how blowing up at other people about their 'facts', whilst being yourself completely wrong on a point of fact that would have taken you 30 seconds to google is 'making me look foolish'.

[Wizofoz]

Again with the unnecessary aggression. I was actually defending you here.

As for the other thread, I'm not entirely sure how blowing up at other people about their 'facts', whilst being yourself completely wrong on a point of fact that would have taken you 30 seconds to google is 'making me look foolish'.

If you don't get how rude a lot of your posting is, it's not me with the communication problem.. Telling someone "You just don't understand" or a native english speaker "it's not his first language:" isn't as polite as you seem to think. When you pointed out I was in error, I imediatley thanked you for the correction, while you doubled down on being both passive aggressive and trying to say incorrect information wasn't.

[das Uber Soldat]

If you don't get how rude a lot of your posting is, it's not me with the communication problem.. Telling someone "You just don't understand" or a native english speaker "it's not his first language:" isn't as polite as you seem to think. When you pointed out I was in error, I imediatley thanked you for the correction, while you doubled down on being both passive aggressive and trying to say incorrect information wasn't.
Well, no offence, but you clearly didn't understand. Further, your spelling and grammar are frankly, terrible. It was because of this I believed you may not be a native speaker. I didn't assert it as fact, merely posed it as as a possibility due the manner in which you write. No offence was intended.

Perhaps if you find the notion that others suspect you of not being a native speaker offensive, construct sentences in a manner that would not lead them to conclude as such?

[Wizofoz]

Well, no offence, but you clearly didn't understand.

Yes, I did. If you fly 56 hrs/mth with Jetstar you do not get 150k, so that's not what Jetstar pay.

Further, your spelling and grammar are frankly, terrible..

At times,Entirerly true. You should see my handwritting...

It was because of this I believed you may not be a native speaker. I didn't assert it as fact, merely posed it as as a possibility due the manner in which you write. No offence was intended.

I accept that- but it's a bit like how I mentioned what I THOUGHT was Jetstars pay. It is however, presumptive and potentially offensive to go around questioning peoples language skills- I accept there was no offence intended.

Perhaps if you find the notion that others suspect you of not being a native speaker offensive, construct sentences in a manner that would not lead them to conclude as such?

I'm quite capable of doing so, but can't always be arsed.

[das Uber Soldat]

Yes, I did. If you fly 56 hrs/mth with Jetstar you do not get 150k, so that's not what Jetstar pay.

Well, in my opinion and with the greatest respect, that's the part I don't think you understand. The OP was never claiming that as a literal statement of fact. I work for J*, I know the EBA. It was obvious to me and I suspect everyone else in the thread that the point wasn't "There exists a scenario where JQ will literally pay you 50k below your base". That would be factually incorrect and easily refutable, as you said. The guy was simply making an hourly rate comparison, an extremely common methodology to make apples to apples comparisons of pay between employers.

The fact he was doing that in my view, was obvious. If you had spent 10 seconds doing the math (200,813 / 75 * 56), it may have been obvious to you as well? But who knows, perhaps what is obvious to you or me isn't the same as to others, and we're making far too great an issue out of a nothing.

Perhaps we can rephrase the argument as "Airlines don't pay pilots enough", and leave it at that :)

[Wizofoz]

"There exists a scenario where JQ will literally pay you 50k below your base". That would be factually incorrect and easily refutable,:)
That is Exactly what he said. 150k for 56 hours.

[Eclan]

Actually, those posts lead to some meaningful and frank exchanges which, while not resolving all disagreements, led to some concensus and mutual repect. People able to engage and share views can often lead to some very fulfilling and interesting interactions, for those willing and able to do so.
In the other thread you hopped in with basically guesses and unfounded claims in a fashion reminiscent, quite frankly, of someone who just wants to post something, anything, to be part of the jabber. Wouldn't it be wonderful if posts on prune contained fact and only fact instead of wild-arsed guesses dressed up as fact and people who had no idea (especially on topics like $$$) stayed out of it. It's almost as though someone's paying you by the post. Sorry but I find it hard to "repect" that sort of random, pointless and unhelpful input. I am thrilled, though, at your response time to posts on here; I wish CASA, Telstra, the ATO and my bank could be so efficient.

This doesn't incluse you, obvioulsy...
Weren't you complaining about others being rude toward you?

Bye.

[das Uber Soldat]

That is Exactly what he said. 150k for 56 hours.
Deary me. We certainly like making things difficult. If it's your contention that op meant specifically 150k for 56 hours, guess what. He's still right!

Go have a read of the eba. If one elects, then min guarantee drops to 56 hours a month.

I'll give you one guess as to what the base pay they will receive for those 56 hours.

Take all the time you need.

[Mach E Avelli]

WTF has min guarantees to do with the subject of vaccine? A 3 year old has a longer attention span .

[das Uber Soldat]

2.5 years of arguing about covid vaccines not enough for you?

[Wizofoz]

Deary me. We certainly like making things difficult. If it's your contention that op meant specifically 150k for 56 hours, guess what. He's still right!

Go have a read of the eba. If one elects, then min guarantee drops to 56 hours a month.

I'll give you one guess as to what the base pay they will receive for those 56 hours.

Take all the time you need.

No, I didn’t know that. And yes, it mean HE’S right, at least technically. He was, however, trying to paint it as if Bonza conditions were the same as Jstar. Having the choice to reduce your hours is a plus, not a minus.
AND if your contention is that 150 for 56 is the SAME as 200 for 75, why is that choice available? Why? Because most people prefer the higher guarantee because it’s a higher guaranteed pay, and not the same at all.

[Mach E Avelli]

Das & Wiz, treatment for Asperger's is available, but meantime your most recent posts should be in the 'Terms and Endearment' section. Mods could maybe help by shunting all such discussions in that direction?
Back on topic (sort of):
Most adults are now vaccinated, and according to a recent study, approximately 50% of those are likely to have already caught Covid at some stage (and somehow miraculously survived). Not everyone will have reported it, or even bothered to self-test, so the real number will forever be unknown.
Therefore, is it time to dump the requirement to isolate for 7 days? For those experiencing only mild effects, is it time to allow them to continue working?
Of course aircrew would need to consider the risks of flying with URTI symptoms, which could vary from non-existent to severe. Discuss.

[tossbag]

Wiz, welcome to the world of relentless deadsh!ttery. It doesn't end, it will keep going with the mindless and relentless pursuit of a 'win'

[No Idea Either]

Mach

aspergers can be mitigated…..maybe…..but there ain’t no ‘treatment’. In any case why would you. By the way under the latest DSM
Asperger’s no longer exists, it’s high functioning autism now……..back on topic.

[Flying Binghi]

Senator Malcolm Roberts brings up the issues Qantas pilots have been facing:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VnZH8fTrfLM

[Wizofoz]

Senator Malcolm Roberts brings up the issues Qantas pilots have been facing:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VnZH8fTrfLM
He supports a very small minority of Qantas pilots who share his mis-informed view. Has he enquired how MOST Qantas pilots feel about working with people who won't minimize the chance of spreading infection?

Top tip- if Malcolm Roberts is the best you can do, you might want to re-think your stance...

[TimmyTee]

Wow, I've seen it all now - attempting to support an argument by citing Malcolm Roberts.

[Ladloy]

Senator Malcolm Roberts brings up the issues Qantas pilots have been facing:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VnZH8fTrfLM
where is his empirical evidence?

[FatPilot]

He supports a very small majority of Qantas pilots who share his mis-informed view. Has he enquired how MOST Qantas pilots feel about working with people who won't minimize the chance of spreading infection?
Havn't you been paying attention? The jab don't stop you catching it and it don't stop you spreading it. Everyone's agreed on that now, even the hardest core vac-whackkos. Where have you been? Them pilots got more chance catching the bug from all the pax they walk by in the terminnal, standing in cues at security, ect. Same as with a cold. use some critical thinking!! That's why the mandates are gone and they not coming back. Sorry to dissapoint you.

PS: my bold, your silly bad

PS: he aint 'misinformed" the facts he quoted about the fact of the matter are true enough. Those guys did lose their jobs. All he done is proposed an amendmnent to discrimination, nohing wrong with that. makes sense too, you refuse a jab that don't work and lose your job? You think that makes sense? Please Explain/.

[Wizofoz]

The jab don't stop you catching it and it don't stop you spreading it./.

It minimizes both and leads to much lower hospitalization and death rates if you are infected. There is no argument about THAT amongst people who have actual qualifications in the field.

[dr dre]

PS: he aint 'misinformed" the facts he quoted about the fact of the matter are true enough. Those guys did lose their jobs. All he done is proposed an amendmnent to discrimination, nohing wrong with that.

Is he also proposing an amendment to anti-discrimination legislation so that employees who violate other SOPs and company policies can’t be fired? /s

Plus his “facts” are dubious too. The anecdotes about supposed vaccine injuries seem to have come from this list earlier in the year. When posted on this forum here (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/644445-covid-vaccines-pilots.html) many users (including) myself replied that the list was inaccurate and contained medical issues that had nothing to do with vaccination. They seemingly just compiled a list of any airline worker in Australia who suffered a medical issue in 2021 and attributed it to the Covid vaccine.

As far as court cases go not a single anti mandate case has succeeded, despite how solid the plaintiff says their claims are. Just because you sue and have high priced lawyers doesn’t mean you will come out in a good position, Ben Roberts Smith can attest to that.

[Bend alot]

Is he also proposing an amendment to anti-discrimination legislation so that employees who violate other SOPs and company policies can’t be fired? /s

Plus his “facts” are dubious too. The anecdotes about supposed vaccine injuries seem to have come from this list earlier in the year. When posted on this forum here (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/644445-covid-vaccines-pilots.html) many users (including) myself replied that the list was inaccurate and contained medical issues that had nothing to do with vaccination. They seemingly just compiled a list of any airline worker in Australia who suffered a medical issue in 2021 and attributed it to the Covid vaccine.

As far as court cases go not a single anti mandate case has succeeded, despite how solid the plaintiff says their claims are. Just because you sue and have high priced lawyers doesn’t mean you will come out in a good position, Ben Roberts Smith can attest to that.
As far as court cases go? it takes years to get to court - many still under way. Very telling will be when the evidence used to make the mandates needs to be presented.

Sydney Trains had a Mandate & recently lost in Fairwork )that moves slightly faster than the courts).
https://rebekahbarnett.substack.com/p/unvaccinated-sydney-train-drivers

[FatPilot]

Is he also proposing an amendment to anti-discrimination legislation so that employees who violate other SOPs and company policies can’t be fired? /s
well why would he? i guess hes not. Doesn't say he is. can you see the diference between what you jus said a what he purposed in the senate? Do you discriminate between one persons right not to be discriminated against and anothers? he's porposing an amendnment to the act. Pretty simple.



Plus his “facts” are dubious too. The anecdotes about supposed vaccine injuries seem to have come from this list earlier in the year. When posted on this forum here (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/644445-covid-vaccines-pilots.html) many users (including) myself replied that the list was inaccurate and contained medical issues that had nothing to do with vaccination. They seemingly just compiled a list of any airline worker in Australia who suffered a medical issue in 2021 and attributed it to the Covid vaccine.


I didnt see any anecdotes about inuries in the video, maybe need to watch again but not got the time now. got a time stamp? i think his amendment isn't about injuries, just discriminination right? whats wrong with preventing discrimination?


sorry i havent read your list and not liekly to now but imagine its about as useful as the lists everyone else (including you im guessing) seemed okay with about how many pepole died of covid instead of with covid, people hit by a bus, had the germ = "died of covid " , ect ect you get the idea. lots of stuff made no sense, but some of you seem to cherry pick what you like the sound of based on your own decisiion re the jab. let others make there own decisions. hands off. lockdowns made no sense, check out dr Jay chayabayayathnagra or whatever it is, banned form tiwitter for disagreeing on lockdowns and mandates, the guys a professor at Stanford, youd think hed know what hes talking about right? better quals then you im guessing?



As far as court cases go not a single anti mandate case has succeeded, despite how solid the plaintiff says their claims are. Just because you sue and have high priced lawyers doesn’t mean you will come out in a good position, Ben Roberts Smith can attest to that.


as far as i know Ben Roberts Smith VC MG is still waiting thedecision on his case. it might turn out the way you might seem to want it but bit early to be crowing about it now dont ya think? don't forget his post nomininals.... whatever else you might think, he earnt them letters.

[Wizofoz]

well why would he? i guess hes not. Doesn't say he is. can you see the diference between what you jus said an what he purposed in the senate? Do you discriminate between one persons right not to be discriminated against and anothers? he's porposing an amendnment to the act. Pretty simple.



QUOTE=dr dre;11350036]Plus his “facts” are dubious too. The anecdotes about supposed vaccine injuries seem to have come from this list earlier in the year. When posted on this forum here (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/644445-covid-vaccines-pilots.html) many users (including) myself replied that the list was inaccurate and contained medical issues that had nothing to do with vaccination. They seemingly just compiled a list of any airline worker in Australia who suffered a medical issue in 2021 and attributed it to the Covid vaccine.


I didnt see any anecdotes about inuries in the video, maybe need to watch again but not got the time now. got a time stamp? i think his amendment isn't about injuries, just discriminination right? whats wrong with preventing discrimination?


sorry i havent read your list and not liekly to now but imagine its about as useful as the lists everyone else (including you im guessing) seemed okay with about how many pepole died of covid instead of with covid, people hit by a bus, had the germ = "died of covid " , ect ect you get the idea. lots of stuff made no sense, but some of you seem to cherry pick what you like the sound of based on your own decisiion re the jab. let others make there own decisions. hands off. lockdowns made no sense, check out dr Jay chayabayayathnagra or whatever it is, banned form tiwitter for disagreeing on lockdowns and mandates, the guys a professor at Stanford, youd think hed know what hes talking about right? better quals then you im guessing?



QUOTE=dr dre;11350036]As far as court cases go not a single anti mandate case has succeeded, despite how solid the plaintiff says their claims are. Just because you sue and have high priced lawyers doesn’t mean you will come out in a good position, Ben Roberts Smith can attest to that.[/QUOTE]


as far as i know Ben Roberts Smith VC MG is still waiting thedecision on his case. it might turn out the way you might seem to want it but bit early to be crowing about it now dont ya think? don't forget his post nomininals.... whatever else you might think, he earnt them letters.[/QUOTE]

Shall we count the "silly bads" in this abomination?

[dr dre]

As far as court cases go? it takes years to get to court - many still under way. Very telling will be when the evidence used to make the mandates needs to be presented.

Sydney Trains had a Mandate & recently lost in Fairwork )that moves slightly faster than the courts).
https://rebekahbarnett.substack.com/p/unvaccinated-sydney-train-drivers

The Sydney Trains case regarded backpay and leave entitlements for those who were stood down in accordance with the policy, it was ruling on the HR processes involved. Not the mandate itself and the Commssion made that clear in the case.

Legal cases in Australia arguing unfair dismissal and challenging mandates themselves have been unsuccessful (https://www.mondaq.com/australia/employee-rights-labour-relations/1232564/employee-litigation-following-termination-on-account-of-vaccination-status) in multiple industries (https://www.hcamag.com/au/specialisation/employment-law/health-worker-terminated-for-refusing-vaccination-loses-unfair-dismissal-case/428855).

[dr dre]

I didnt see any anecdotes about inuries in the video, maybe need to watch again but not got the time now. got a time stamp?

It’s this link (https://www.thedailyexaminer.co.nz/airline-pilots-fight-for-safety-for-themselves-their-passengers/) in the first post of the earlier thread I posted. Scroll down the page to see a list of all the “adverse reactions”, which posters in that thread then debunked as rubbish. I never heard of a spate of heart attacks, defibrillations, comas and deaths plaguing the industry in the second half of 2021, as I never heard of it in circles out side of aviation.

i think his amendment isn't about injuries, just discriminination right? whats wrong with preventing discrimination?.

Failing to comply with company policies is not discrimination. It is legal grounds to have your job terminated. If any pilot stated they refuse to operate an aircraft in accordance with SOPs and company policies then they too would have their employment terminated.

[brokenagain]

After the events in Queensland last week, Senator Roberts might want to be careful which cookers he hitches his wagon up to in his opportunistic chase for votes (albeit from a very small percentage of the total population).

[Ollie Onion]

Just get the vaccine, simple really.

[FatPilot]

Failing to comply with company policies is not discrimination. It is legal grounds to have your job terminated. If any pilot stated they refuse to operate an aircraft in accordance with SOPs and company policies then they too would have their employment terminated.

do you also work for Quantas? if so you may already know the in' s and out' s of the contract. have you seen the claus for jabs made retrospecitivly mandatry? maybe such jabs must be on ' reasonable " grounds, maybe such changes must be discussed with the employee group prier to implimnetation. maybe there IS no claus. other companys (a few not all) are finding this out in court.

you mightbe under the misconceptiion the legal world is exactly as it appears to the laymen and is simple and straightforward. It isnt. So to spell it out if the policy is introduced improperly then it possibly has no grounds and anyone sacked mightve been sacked wrongfuly and been discriminated against. A employer mandate esp one brung in improperly is compleetly different to an SOP.

having said that if an errent SOP is brought in which pilots believe has potential to lead to undesired aircraft state or outcome or simillar and pilots refuse to comply and raise a stink and you were cheif pilot do you still expect them to comply? but its an SOP!

Having said all that the senator is trying to upgrade an anti discrimination act or whatever. not so long ago if you prefered the company of other men youd be sacked and more. where do you draw the line Dre.? Whose okay to discrimintate against and who isnt? who died and left you in charge?

Having said all that and assuming thr courts find in favour of the defenedents in each case the one guy who had cancer and said hed comply when he was through with treatment and still sacked....... how do you justify that Dre? seems pretty tough. standing up against someone elses personal decision on a jab that doesnt even work. Your a tough man, Dr Dre! well at least on here.

[FatPilot]

After the events in Queensland last week, Senator Roberts might want to be careful which cookers he hitches his wagon up to in his opportunistic chase for votes (albeit from a very small percentage of the total population).
thats a funny way of looking at it. i think Roberts could find a lot more votes if he went mainstream on his views woudnt you say? seems to be taking the hard road, maybe he believes in something else, no not the tooth fairy, not area 51, im talking about ethics. maybe his motoivation is different to some of the other pollies. what could it be?

[Wizofoz]

do you also work for Quantas?



No one does. Now Qantas on the other hand...

[Wizofoz]

thats a funny way of looking at it. i think Roberts could find a lot more votes if he went mainstream on his views woudnt you say? seems to be taking the hard road, maybe he believes in something else, no not the tooth fairy, not area 51, im talking about ethics. maybe his motoivation is different to some of the other pollies. what could it be?
No. Because he is only in the Senate because he is with One Nation, and whacky views are a pre-requisite.. There's no way in hell any other party would put him on their ticket.

[dr dre]

No. Because he is only in the Senate because he is with One Nation, and whacky views are a pre-requisite.. There's no way in hell any other party would put him on their ticket.

Actually if you look at the anti vax legislation he proposed he gained the support of 4 LNP Senators, Canavan, Antic, Rennick and McLachlan, along with Palmer’s Babet, all of whom are in the whacky Roberts club anyway.

But only 6 votes out of 76 in the Senate will ensure that type of legislation has zero chance of ever getting up.

So despite our spelling challenged mate’s assertions, vaccine mandates are legal and will not be overruled by legislation.

do you also work for Quantas? if so you may already know the in' s and out' s of the contract. have you seen the claus for jabs made retrospecitivly mandatry? maybe such jabs must be on ' reasonable " grounds, maybe such changes must be discussed with the employee group prier to implimnetation. maybe there IS no claus. other companys (a few not all) are finding this out in court.

you mightbe under the misconceptiion the legal world is exactly as it appears to the laymen and is simple and straightforward. It isnt. So to spell it out if the policy is introduced improperly then it possibly has no grounds and anyone sacked mightve been sacked wrongfuly and been discriminated against. A employer mandate esp one brung in improperly is compleetly different to an SOP.

Employee groups, unions and OH&S groups were consulted before implementation of the policy. Courts have upheld mandates, the government will not legislate against them. What happened was 100% legal if the proper HR processes were followed.

[Hamley]

.. maybe he believes in something else, no not the tooth fairy, not area 51, im talking about ethics….

Malcom Roberts and ethics is a long bow to draw in the same sentence.

I don’t believe in the tooth fairy, nor Area 51. But at least I’m not a massive on-record racist like Malcom Roberts.

[MalcolmReynolds]

Nope I've had three Vax and never again no more, no masks no quarantine, no border closures. It's just a flu people! Nothing should have been mandatory, no lockdowns and no criminalising it. A total **** fight it was with idiots in State and Federal Parliament making it up as they went.

[Wizofoz]

Nope I've had three Vax and never again no more, no masks no quarantine, no border closures. It's just a flu people! Nothing should have been mandatory, no lockdowns and no criminalising it. A total **** fight it was with idiots in State and Federal Parliament making it up as they went.

Remember that time a single flu killed 1 000 000 people in America?

No, me neither...

[Flying Binghi]

Nope I've had three Vax and never again no more, no masks no quarantine, no border closures. It's just a flu people! Nothing should have been mandatory, no lockdowns and no criminalising it. A total **** fight it was with idiots in State and Federal Parliament making it up as they went.

Sweden set the example of how it should have been done.

[HappyBandit]

Nope I've had three Vax and never again no more, no masks no quarantine, no border closures. It's just a flu people! Nothing should have been mandatory, no lockdowns and no criminalising it. A total **** fight it was with idiots in State and Federal Parliament making it up as they went. ​​​​​​​You looked at the excess deaths for the last few years? It's insane. Yeah, just a flu. For many, the illness is mild now. Initially, prior to vaccines, anti viral etc, mortality rate for developed countries sat around 4%. So, to minimise this risk especially to those less fighting fit than yourself, Malcolm, the government had little option but to restrict movement. A smart decision I feel. You can retrospectively wax lyrical all you like about what the government did wrong. It won't change the fact that vaccine mandates etc weren't a stab at ones' autonomy. Humans exist collectively. This was for the collection of humans. The same ones you transport day in and out. From your sentiment unfortunately, it seems you're only thinking of yourself. I picked up covid recently. I thankfully recovered ok. I spoke with someone else who caught it from same person. She's now on a ventilator as we speak, having oxygen forced into her diseased, and weakening lungs. The spreader only then apologised that she knowingly went to the function not realising the consequences as it was mild for her. Moral of story is: You have no idea what other comorbidities someone else has, if they're immune compromised etc. Instead she assumed that her illness would be the same. This is why the government mandated, why companies mandated, why border restrictions put in place. Show some compassion to your fellow humans.

[Flying Binghi]

…

..You can retrospectively wax lyrical all you like about what the government did wrong. It won't change the fact that vaccine mandates etc weren't a stab at ones' autonomy…



Perhaps you can show us all the ‘science’ behind the vaccine mandates ?

:hmm:​​​​​​​

[Wizofoz]

Perhaps you can show us all the ‘science’ behind the vaccine mandates ?

:hmm:
​​​​​​​Why would anyone bother? You'll just counter with a link to Infowars and believe that instead.

[Ollie Onion]

Perhaps you can show us all the ‘science’ behind the vaccine mandates ?

:hmm:


​​​​​​​What is the point, no one who is anti mandate or vax seems to have the ability to understand and trust science anyway.

[Freeotispriest2020]

Which airlines have a mandate?

QF group? Virgin? Alliance? Cobham?

I can only think of one top end operator who doesn’t

[FatPilot]

Why would anyone bother? You'll just counter with a link to Infowars and believe that instead.
There s many many opinions out there to the efect that mandates were a bad idea, here in aus and a broad. i would only rely on the qualifiied ones myself. If you dont want "infowars " whatever that is then whos opinoin WOULD you accept ? you dont seem to want to understand that jus because the machine shuts down a highly qaulified expert in the feild that doesnt mean hes wrong or a quack. yesterday he or she was a respected proffessional, today shuned because he /she didnt agree with the agenda. there 's a huge diference in those 2 scenarios. Why dont you like hearing it? look up congitive disonannce. see if it fits your outlook. Just trying to help./

[romeocharlie]

There s many many opinions out there to the efect that mandates were a bad idea, here in aus and a broad. i would only rely on the qualifiied ones myself. If you dont want "infowars " whatever that is then whos opinoin WOULD you accept ? you dont seem to want to understand that jus because the machine shuts down a highly qaulified expert in the feild that doesnt mean hes wrong or a quack. yesterday he or she was a respected proffessional, today shuned because he /she didnt agree with the agenda. there 's a huge diference in those 2 scenarios. Why dont you like hearing it? look up congitive disonannce. see if it fits your outlook. Just trying to help./

Perhaps people would be more inclined to listen to you if you were more predisposed to using spellcheck. Actually no, they probably wouldn't. Carry on. :}

[dr dre]

Some trying to refight battles already fought and lost.

Covid was a problem.

The vaccine overcame that problem.

Mandates were legal and those who chose to not comply with them will not get their jobs back no matter how hard Malcolm Roberts tries.

[Bend alot]

The Sydney Trains case regarded backpay and leave entitlements for those who were stood down in accordance with the policy, it was ruling on the HR processes involved. Not the mandate itself and the Commssion made that clear in the case.

Legal cases in Australia arguing unfair dismissal and challenging mandates themselves have been unsuccessful (https://www.mondaq.com/australia/employee-rights-labour-relations/1232564/employee-litigation-following-termination-on-account-of-vaccination-status) in multiple industries (https://www.hcamag.com/au/specialisation/employment-law/health-worker-terminated-for-refusing-vaccination-loses-unfair-dismissal-case/428855).
If you read the full decision - This is what was said.

"I am not prepared, in the absence of appropriate evidence, to simply conclude that the Policy is reasonable and/or lawful or proportionate as a workplace health and safety response to the risks presented by COVID 19.
& This

"However, I also give significant weight to the fact that a vaccination policy such as that included in the Policy intrudes on one’s right to bodily integrity if it is complied with. The practical effect of the Policy is to place pressure on an employee to give up this fundamental right, given that non-compliance is accompanied by potential disciplinary consequences that include termination of employment. This weighs against the Policy being assessed as reasonable."

Also the recent teacher one.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/nov/05/psychological-injury-nsw-teacher-wins-compensation-payout-over-handling-of-vaccine-mandate

[bolthead]

The vaccine overcame that problem.
Sure it did. Did more people die from Covid in the US in a vaccinated 2021 than an unvaccinated 2020?

[Wizofoz]

The vaccine overcame that problem.
Sure it did. Did more people die from Covid in the US in a vaccinated 2021 than an unvaccinated 2020?
Meaningless question- NO-ONE died of it in 2018, because it didn't exist. In 2020 it hadn't spread as far as in 2021.

Now, what was the incidence of death and serious illness in the vaccinated versus the unvaccinated? Answer, FAR higher (like a factor of ten) among the unvaccinated.

The fact that you ask the question means you absorb distorted figures from partisan sources.

[dr dre]

If you read the full decision - This is what was said.

"I am not prepared, in the absence of appropriate evidence, to simply conclude that the Policy is reasonable and/or lawful or proportionate as a workplace health and safety response to the risks presented by COVID 19.

There was no appropriate evidence presented in the case because the mandate itself was not on trial. A judge will not make a judgement on something that isn’t relevant to the case or isn’t even part of the case.

& This

​​​​​​"However, I also give significant weight to the fact that a vaccination policy such as that included in the Policy intrudes on one’s right to bodily integrity if it is complied with. The practical effect of the Policy is to place pressure on an employee to give up this fundamental right, given that non-compliance is accompanied by potential disciplinary consequences that include termination of employment. This weighs against the Policy being assessed as reasonable."​

Of course a vaccine mandate intrudes on bodily integrity. That doesn’t mean it isn’t legal, the judge himself said that mandates are reasonable actions.

We already surrender bodily autonomy. It is a requirement for a pilot holding a class 1 medical to submit a part of their body (their blood) to the government every several years to see if their cholesterol and sugar levels aren’t so high as to indicate a medical problem. In this case the right to bodily autonomy is overruled by the greater r interests of safety.

Also the recent teacher one.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/nov/05/psychological-injury-nsw-teacher-wins-compensation-payout-over-handling-of-vaccine-mandate

That person had a medical exemption that was apparently not considered, and the payout was related to improper consultation and process. The judge did not make a ruling on the legality of the mandate itself. The case also noted the teacher could work remotely as a factor in the judgement, which is not an option for most airline workers.

As the links I posted above show there were several cases challenging the mandates themselves, in those case the judges upheld the mandates as being reasonable and in compliance with all the applicable laws.

[Troo believer]

What is the point, no one who is anti mandate or vax seems to have the ability to understand and trust science anyway.
Couldn’t agree more.
There are a few pilots at the Roo that have been shown the door because of their recalcitrance. One decided to post some claptrap on YT and we all know how that ended.
Why is it that a few amongst us refuse to admit that the science is irrefutable? Why do these same people pilot an aircraft, placing absolute trust in the aeronautical engineers whom designed and built it together with the licensed engineers that keep the thing safe, yet refuse to acknowledge that the science of Covid and the associated vaccines are effective in limiting deaths and severe illness is well understood. Why do they believe that they alone know better than some of the smartest people on the planet yet with little or no education beyond HSC. Do these same folk have degrees in medicine, immunology or pharmacology? Doctorates? Professors of Virology? Have they spent decades studying? Can they think critically? No, they suffer from confirmation bias searching for any fringe article written by dubious authors to reinforce preconceived conspiracy theories founded in Dunning Krueger effect dazzled with their own brilliance.
Your theories are no longer relevant and this thread has run its course. Still out in the wilderness are we. I’ve been back flying for two years so whose the fool here? I’m just glad it’s all over and time to move on.
2023 should be a better year.
Cheers.

[Flying Binghi]

Couldn’t agree more.
There are a few pilots at the Roo that have been shown the door because of their recalcitrance. One decided to post some claptrap on YT and we all know how that ended.
Why is it that a few amongst us refuse to admit that the science is irrefutable? Why do these same people pilot an aircraft, placing absolute trust in the aeronautical engineers whom designed and built it together with the licensed engineers that keep the thing safe, yet refuse to acknowledge that the science of Covid and the associated vaccines are effective in limiting deaths and severe illness is well understood. Why do they believe that they alone know better than some of the smartest people on the planet yet with little or no education beyond HSC. Do these same folk have degrees in medicine, immunology or pharmacology? Doctorates? Professors of Virology? Have they spent decades studying? Can they think critically? No, they suffer from confirmation bias searching for any fringe article written by dubious authors to reinforce preconceived conspiracy theories founded in Dunning Krueger effect dazzled with their own brilliance.
Your theories are no longer relevant and this thread has run its course. Still out in the wilderness are we. I’ve been back flying for two years so whose the fool here? I’m just glad it’s all over and time to move on.
2023 should be a better year.
Cheers.

Failures in aviation science are dramatic and get plastered all over the country side, and the media. Failures in medical science are quietly buried one by one.

For further research: “Why Most Published Research Findings Are False”. https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124

[Flying Binghi]

He supports a very small minority of Qantas pilots who share his mis-informed view. Has he enquired how MOST Qantas pilots feel about working with people who won't minimize the chance of spreading infection?

Top tip- if Malcolm Roberts is the best you can do, you might want to re-think your stance...

Cats and dogs and most other animals can spread the “infection”. Wizofoz, did you give a vaccine to your cat ?

I think the meme that the unvaxed will spread the china virus any more than the vaxed is now well understood to be debunked.. its only just the bots don’t know it by now..;)

[Flying Binghi]

After the events in Queensland last week, Senator Roberts might want to be careful which cookers he hitches his wagon up to in his opportunistic chase for votes (albeit from a very small percentage of the total population).

Yer saying he should avoid school teachers with mental illness..:hmm:

Perhaps the senator should be pushing for all school teachers to be checked for mental illness… or maybe he’s not so stupid as to try to tie the actions a couple of school teachers to all the others.

The government and media created hysteria over the Tara incident is looking more and more as being used as a diverter to the vaccine cluster-fleck..:hmm:

[Flying Binghi]

Why would anyone bother? You'll just counter with a link to Infowars and believe that instead.

Seems yer caint find it, eh..:hmm:

It used to be that new vaccines took 8 to 10 years to pass all the required tests. It used to be that no legal indemnities were given to vaccine manufacturers. It used to be that at least some common sense were used……

…………Suddenly, we have a new fully tested vaccine ready to go in 6 months… but, we just need to give full legal indemnity to the manufactures and then they can give us all a dose right now..:)

Yer gotta give-’em credit. Them bridge salesmen of the twentieth century have evolved to be the vaccine salesmen of the 21st century..:D
.



:hmm:​​​​​​​

[dragon man]

https://www.news.com.au/technology/science/human-body/dr-kerryn-phelps-reveals-devastating-covid-vaccine-injury-says-doctors-have-been-censored/news-story/0c1fa02818c99a5ff65f5bf852a382cf

Nothing to see here.

[Chronic Snoozer]

It used to be that new vaccines took 8 to 10 years to pass all the required tests.

Why do YOU think they took that amount of time?

[dr dre]

Why do YOU think they took that amount of time?

The reasons why the time period for the vaccine trial was shortened have been well explained multiple times over the course of the pandemic. Those questions have been answered yet anti-vaxxers still pretend they’ve found a huge problem that “no one will answer”:

Here’s How It Was Possible to Develop COVID-19 Vaccines So Quickly (https://www.healthline.com/health-news/heres-how-it-was-possible-to-develop-covid-19-vaccines-so-quickly)

[Chronic Snoozer]

The reasons why the time period for the vaccine trial was shortened have been well explained multiple times over the course of the pandemic. Those questions have been answered yet anti-vaxxers still pretend they’ve found a huge problem that “no one will answer”:

Here’s How It Was Possible to Develop COVID-19 Vaccines So Quickly (https://www.healthline.com/health-news/heres-how-it-was-possible-to-develop-covid-19-vaccines-so-quickly)

Yeah, I know, I know. Just indulging the chap.

[Flying Binghi]

The reasons why the time period for the vaccine trial was shortened have been well explained multiple times over the course of the pandemic. Those questions have been answered yet anti-vaxxers still pretend they’ve found a huge problem that “no one will answer”:

Here’s How It Was Possible to Develop COVID-19 Vaccines So Quickly (https://www.healthline.com/health-news/heres-how-it-was-possible-to-develop-covid-19-vaccines-so-quickly)

Lets pull a few quotes from that article:

“..There was a lot of money that was freed up and moved to the places where research was being done,” Burton told Healthline..


..it typically takes 10 to 15 years for a vaccine to come to fruition.


..The COVID-19 vaccines that are currently available in the United States were granted emergency use authorization from the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). They’re not fully approved.

“The reason that there is not a full licensure given to the vaccines is essentially because we have very limited time in understanding… the mid-term and long-term benefits of the vaccine in the individuals that were vaccinated,”..”

Seems I were wrong with me 8 to 10 years approval time frame.. Oh well, can’t be right all the time..:hmm:

dr dre, perhaps you best ask the question why, if these vaccines are so well researched, the manufactures are granted full legal indemnity ?

[dr dre]

Lets pull a few quotes from that article:

Seems I were wrong with me 8 to 10 years approval time frame.. Oh well, can’t be right all the time..:hmm:

This isn’t cutting corners. Rather, it’s an extensive standard review process that is expedited, he said.

“The standards could never be compromised even under an emergency authorization use of the vaccines; the data integrity is there and the safety of the participants is paramount,”
Burton pointed out that in the fall of 2020, the Moderna, Pfizer-BioNTech, and Johnson & Johnson vaccine trials all paused due to a safety signal.

“[The] truth is, that is part of the clinical trial process… we have people watching for any sign or symptom from the individuals that are in the trial, and the fact is that when we see something that meets the criteria, we [pause] the study… It’s integral to the design of every single study and shows that the process is working,” she said.

At one point in the trial the use was halted due a concern, the concern was addressed and the trial resumed. This is exactly how it’s meant to be.

“The reason that there is not a full licensure given to the vaccines is essentially because we have very limited time in understanding… the mid-term and long-term benefits of the vaccine in the individuals that were vaccinated

The key word is benefits. They know from the trials the vaccine is safe. But the long term efficiency over a large scale was partially unknown. The early indications were it would be effective at reducing severe disease. So it was assessed as safe and probably effective enough to put into mass production. And it worked.

[HappyBandit]

Lets pull a few quotes from that article: “..There was a lot of money that was freed up and moved to the places where research was being done,” Burton told Healthline.. ..it typically takes 10 to 15 years for a vaccine to come to fruition. ..The COVID-19 vaccines that are currently available in the United States were granted emergency use authorization from the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). They’re not fully approved. “The reason that there is not a full licensure given to the vaccines is essentially because we have very limited time in understanding… the mid-term and long-term benefits of the vaccine in the individuals that were vaccinated,”..” Seems I were wrong with me 8 to 10 years approval time frame.. Oh well, can’t be right all the time.. dr dre, perhaps you best ask the question why, if these vaccines are so well researched, the manufactures are granted full legal indemnity ? ​​​​​​​you're a ****. I suspect you didn't even read the article. You conveniently left out all the references to not compromising on safety or cutting corners....This isn’t cutting corners. Rather, it’s an extensive standard review process that is expedited, he said.

Regulatory agencies in the world look at two things:


The safety of the participants and that they wouldn’t be compromised under an emergency use authorization.
The data quality and data integrity of any submissions to the agencies.

“The standards could never be compromised even under an emergency authorization use of the vaccines.

You're an embarassment to critical thinking and proper analysis. So you lost your job in aviation hey? Comalco aluminium smelter in Gladstone are looking for workers at the moment. Not sure on their vaccine requirements however.

[Ollie Onion]

Lets pull a few quotes from that article:

“..There was a lot of money that was freed up and moved to the places where research was being done,” Burton told Healthline..


..it typically takes 10 to 15 years for a vaccine to come to fruition.


..The COVID-19 vaccines that are currently available in the United States were granted emergency use authorization from the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). They’re not fully approved.

“The reason that there is not a full licensure given to the vaccines is essentially because we have very limited time in understanding… the mid-term and long-term benefits of the vaccine in the individuals that were vaccinated,”..”

Seems I were wrong with me 8 to 10 years approval time frame.. Oh well, can’t be right all the time..:hmm:

dr dre, perhaps you best ask the question why, if these vaccines are so well researched, the manufactures are granted full legal indemnity ?


The normal approval time frame is only that long because of 2 factors:
1 - Funding, it takes a lot of time to raise the billions required for a 3 stage approval
2 - Disease! You need outbreaks of the disease that are big enough and consistent enough to actually run the trials. The MERs vaccine never progressed to approval as by the time they were ready for trials the disease had killed itself off.

With Covid we had both, the funding was enormous and plentiful, the disease was everywhere, no shortage of people to participate in the trials, no steps were skips or shortcut.

Pretending otherwise is scaremongering just like your selective quoting. These RNA vaccines were under development for years with the biggest area of research being the vaccination and treatment of Cancer, the most promising of these had stalled as they needed to raise over $3bn for the trial stages, thankfully Covid had super accelerated this area and we have just seen the first mRNA vaccine for Melanoma enter its last stage trials. I assume you will also be reluctant to take advantage of the cancer saving vaccines developed as a direct result of the Covid research and funding?

[dragon man]

https://www.instagram.com/jab_injuries_australia


Have a read of these and tell me again how good these jabs are please!

[dragon man]

Former federal MP Dr Kerryn Phelps has revealed she and her wife both suffered serious and ongoing injures from Covid vaccines, while suggesting the true rate of adverse events is far higher than acknowledged due to underreporting and “threats” from medical regulators.

In an explosive submission to Parliament’s Long Covid inquiry, the former Australian Medical Association (AMA) president has broken her silence about the “devastating” experience — emerging as the most prominent public health figure in the country to speak up about the taboo subject (https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/outright-lying-australian-scientist-hits-out-at-tga-after-lifechanging-covid-vaccine-injury/news-story/c57a554e4f7b6750e8ae6ff2db6c9514).

“This is an issue that I have witnessed first-hand with my wife who suffered a severe neurological reaction to her first Pfizer vaccine within minutes, including burning face and gums, paraesethesiae, and numb hands and feet, while under observation by myself, another doctor and a registered ®️ nurse at the time of immunisation,” the 65-year-old said.

“I continue to observe the devastating effects a year-and-a-half later with the addition of fatigue and additional neurological symptoms including nerve pains, altered sense of smell, visual disturbance and musculoskeletal inflammation. The diagnosis and causation has been confirmed by several specialists who have told me that they have seen ‘a lot’ of patients in a similar situation.”

Dr Phelps married former primary school teacher Jackie Stricker-Phelps in 1998.

[dr dre]

Phelps was always seen as a bit of an outlier within medicine (she promoted homeopathy) and has been concentrating on politics for 20 years, rather than epidemiology. news.com.au is a very sensationalist site and it’s noteworthy that apart from them and the Daily Fail other more sensible media are not reporting this, or waiting to see how the actual wealth of knowledge from immunologists will respond.

Unlike anti vaxxers who immediately latch onto anything they think confirms their beliefs, I’ll wait for a while and see what the experts say, but I’ll note that nowhere in Phelp’s submission (which doesn’t include any verified references, just a few anecdotes), does she say she wants Covid vaccinations stopped. She is actually encouraging children to receive Covid boosters. And she says she wants to go even further with Covid restrictions, look at re-introducing masks, isolation and partial lockdowns as required.

What she said re vaccines was more on the grounds that those with an adverse reaction should receive a bit more care. Now no proper medico has ever said that vaccines are 100% safe, but the risks of being infected with Covid are much higher. Like myocarditis. The way anti-vaxxers carried on you’d think every second person was getting myocarditis from Pfizer. There were some cases, but it was estimated the risk of myocarditis from Covid infection was 6-8 times more likely, and the cases were generally more severe.

So cookers I’m afraid this doesn’t back up your theories, just like how every other time you’ve found a news article in the last two years that you are convinced “proves” Covid is a hoax/vaccines are dangerous etc doesn’t.

Here’s the OzSAGE (a group of doctors whom Phelps is a board member of) press release (https://ozsage.org/media_releases/ozsage-christmas/) today stating children under 5 should get Covid boosters. Phelps’s comments today were not anti vax.

[Flying Binghi]

The normal approval time frame is only that long because of 2 factors:
1 - Funding, it takes a lot of time to raise the billions required for a 3 stage approval
2 - Disease! You need outbreaks of the disease that are big enough and consistent enough to actually run the trials. The MERs vaccine never progressed to approval as by the time they were ready for trials the disease had killed itself off.

With Covid we had both, the funding was enormous and plentiful, the disease was everywhere, no shortage of people to participate in the trials, no steps were skips or shortcut.

Pretending otherwise is scaremongering just like your selective quoting. These RNA vaccines were under development for years with the biggest area of research being the vaccination and treatment of Cancer, the most promising of these had stalled as they needed to raise over $3bn for the trial stages, thankfully Covid had super accelerated this area and we have just seen the first mRNA vaccine for Melanoma enter its last stage trials. I assume you will also be reluctant to take advantage of the cancer saving vaccines developed as a direct result of the Covid research and funding?

Seems you have not been keeping up with developments:Press Conference: Dr. Aseem Malhotra’s New Peer-Reviewed Paper Calls for Immediate and “Complete Suspension” of Covid-19 Vaccine

“..The World Council for Health hosted a press conference in London on September 27, 2022 featuring one of Britain’s most influential cardiologists:

Dr. Malhotra presented on his new peer-reviewed paper published in the Journal of Insulin Resistance

…real-world data reveals that in the non-elderly population the number needed to vaccinate to prevent one death from Covid-19 runs into thousands and that re-analysis of randomized controlled trial data suggests a greater risk of suffering a serious adverse event from the vaccine than to be hospitalized with Covid-19.

Dr Aseem Malhotra is an award-winning Consultant Cardiologist, Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians, and President of the Scientific Advisory Committee – The Public Health Collaboration. Dr. Malhotra is an internationally renowned expert in the prevention, diagnosis and management of heart disease. His areas of expertise include evidence based medicine and collaborative shared decision-making with patients. Aseem Malhotra is also an honorary council member to the Metabolic Psychiatry Clinic at Stanford University school of medicine California..”

https://worldcouncilforhealth.org/multimedia/aseem-malhotra-press-conference/

[Flying Binghi]

you're a ****. I suspect you didn't even read the article. You conveniently left out all the references to not compromising on safety or cutting corners....This isn’t cutting corners. Rather, it’s an extensive standard review process that is expedited, he said.

Regulatory agencies in the world look at two things:

The safety of the participants and that they wouldn’t be compromised under an emergency use authorization.
The data quality and data integrity of any submissions to the agencies.

“The standards could never be compromised even under an emergency authorization use of the vaccines.

You're an embarassment to critical thinking and proper analysis. So you lost your job in aviation hey? Comalco aluminium smelter in Gladstone are looking for workers at the moment. Not sure on their vaccine requirements however.

Hmmm… a certain Dr Malhotra would disagree. He would likely suggest if the vaccine development were properly done and not rushed with corners cut that it likely would only have been allowed to be used in the aged at their own risk. Certainly not approved for general usage until all proper trails were completed satisfactorily.

There are good reasons why vaccine trails normally take 10 or so years to be completed..:hmm:

[dr dre]

Seems you have not been keeping up with developments:Press Conference: Dr. Aseem Malhotra’s New Peer-Reviewed Paper Calls for Immediate and “Complete Suspension” of Covid-19 Vaccine

Debunked here:

The Aseem Malhotra lecture isn’t what you think it is (https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-aseem-malhotra-lecture-isnt-what-you-think-it-is/)

Article by cardiologist Aseem Malhotra made unsupported claims about the benefits and risks of COVID-19 vaccination (https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/article-by-cardiologist-aseem-malhotra-made-unsupported-claims-about-benefits-risks-covid-19-vaccination/)

He isn’t convincing anyone apart from cookers.

And digging more into this guy he has a very chequered background. Basically a Dr Oz, promoting his “Low Carb, High Fat” diet books and claiming that diet would decrease the severity of Covid. Quack is a perfect definition for this guy.

Aseem Malhotra (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aseem_Malhotra)

[Flying Binghi]

Debunked here:

The Aseem Malhotra lecture isn’t what you think it is (https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-aseem-malhotra-lecture-isnt-what-you-think-it-is/)

Article by cardiologist Aseem Malhotra made unsupported claims about the benefits and risks of COVID-19 vaccination (https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/article-by-cardiologist-aseem-malhotra-made-unsupported-claims-about-benefits-risks-covid-19-vaccination/)

He isn’t convincing anyone apart from cookers.

And digging more into this guy he has a very chequered background. Basically a Dr Oz, promoting his “Low Carb, High Fat” diet books and claiming that diet would decrease the severity of Covid. Quack is a perfect definition for this guy.

Aseem Malhotra (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aseem_Malhotra)

Diet is a massive factor in just how effective the body is in keeping all of life’s ‘bugs’ at bay. For starters, there is the food type intake effect on the body's vitamin D levels.
Vitamin D levels are deficient in the elderly and the obese… guess who were the main ‘victims’ of the china virus..:hmm:

As to the so-called rebuttal article:

https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/article-by-cardiologist-aseem-malhotra-made-unsupported-claims-about-benefits-risks-covid-19-vaccination/

“..Scientists such as surgeon and cancer researcher David Gorski, biostatisticians Jeffrey S Morris, and nanomedicine expert Susan Oliver pointed out several issues in the study..”


One a ‘research’ doctor looking to make the next big drug… now, who will be marketing that billion dollar profit drug…. Thinking, thinking..


The next, a researcher who were involved in papers that found gems such as: “..the benefit of the mandates was potentially stronger within Republican-leaning counties..”
or the “Racial Disparities” found with zero reference to vitamin D deficiency.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35675599/


And lucky last, if this is the same Susan Oliver, then it looks like we found us a live one: “..People who are not vaccinated for Covid are more likely to be involved in car crashes..” ..:hmm:

https://twitter.com/drsusanoliver1





.

[tossbag]

Why is it that a few amongst us refuse to admit that the science is irrefutable?

You poor bastard, you believe everything you're told? Question nothing? If you look really hard you might find some thalidomide lying around, it's good for morning sickness.

[dr dre]

You poor bastard, you believe everything you're told? Question nothing? If you look really hard you might find some thalidomide lying around, it's good for morning sickness.

Thalidomide was used before any real testing and trials (1950s). Protocols are far better developed now.

Plus there have been millions of babies born to Covid vaccinated parents, and no widespread birth defects reported.

[tossbag]

Thalidomide was used before any real testing and trials (1950s).

So?

Trust the science they said back then.

Doesn't change the fact that millions will believe anything they are told, and can't/won't do any critical analysis. I've got a mate, him and his family refused the vaccine, none of them have contracted covid, me, vaccinated, caught it twice so far.

[Break Right]

A lot of Conformation bias in play here. 🤣🤣

[tossbag]

Oh there's a lot of bias going on bro ;)

[Flying Binghi]

You poor bastard, you believe everything you're told? Question nothing? If you look really hard you might find some thalidomide lying around, it's good for morning sickness.

How do you get to post about thalidomide ? My posts referencing it get removed.. ?

[megan]

Life is a terminal disease, anyone able to recommend a pill or vaccination.

[tossbag]

Hey Binghi, dunno. I think it's due the high quality posts I'm known for in general :cool:

[Bend alot]

Thalidomide was used before any real testing and trials (1950s). Protocols are far better developed now.

Plus there have been millions of babies born to Covid vaccinated parents, and no widespread birth defects reported.

A pre covid publication.
A history lesson of the last pandemic - they then said safe and effective (you read this and you even see the lied - this year 2 court cases have been resolved -10 years later &more to come).

https://archive.hshsl.umaryland.edu/bitstream/handle/10713/8270/Doshi_Pandermrix2018.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
In October 2009, the US National Institutes of Health infectious diseases chief, Anthony Fauci, appeared on YouTube to reassure Americans about the safety of the “swine flu” vaccine

[dragon man]

“ The association of increased risk of COVID-19 with higher numbers of prior vaccine doses in our study, was unexpected. A simplistic explanation might be that those who received more doses were more likely to be individuals at higher risk of COVID-19. A small proportion of individuals may have fit this description. However, the majority of subjects in this study were generally young individuals and all were eligible to have received at least 3 doses of vaccine by the study start date, and which they had every opportunity to do. … This is not the only study to find a possible association with more prior vaccine doses and higher risk of COVID-19. … We still have a lot to learn about protection from COVID-19 vaccination, and in addition to a vaccine’s effectiveness it is important to examine whether multiple vaccine doses given over time may not be having the beneficial effect that is generally assumed“


https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.12.17.22283625v1.full.pdf

[dr dre]

“ The association of increased risk of COVID-19 with higher numbers of prior vaccine doses in our study, was unexpected. A simplistic explanation might be that those who received more doses were more likely to be individuals at higher risk of COVID-19. A small proportion of individuals may have fit this description. However, the majority of subjects in this study were generally young individuals and all were eligible to have received at least 3 doses of vaccine by the study start date, and which they had every opportunity to do. … This is not the only study to find a possible association with more prior vaccine doses and higher risk of COVID-19. … We still have a lot to learn about protection from COVID-19 vaccination, and in addition to a vaccine’s effectiveness it is important to examine whether multiple vaccine doses given over time may not be having the beneficial effect that is generally assumed“


https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.12.17.22283625v1.full.pdf

Yet you omit this part of that report: Those who chose to receive the bivalent vaccine might have been more worried about infection and might have been more likely to get tested when they had symptoms, thereby disproportionately detecting more incident infections among those who received the bivalent vaccine.

So basically (in the US where the vaccine was highly politicised) if you didn’t believe in the vaccine you probably weren’t in a rush to get yourself tested when symptoms occurred, so the infection appeared lowered amongst unvaccinated.

[dragon man]

And you missed this then.

The association of increased risk of COVID-19 with higher numbers of prior vaccine doses in our study, was unexpected. A simplistic explanation might be that those who received more doses were more likely to be individuals at higher risk of COVID-19. A small proportion of individuals may have fit this description. However, the majority of subjects in this study were generally young individuals and all were eligible to have received at least 3 doses of vaccine by the study start date, and which they had every opportunity to do. Therefore, those who received fewer than 3 doses (>45% of individuals in the study) were not those ineligible to receive the vaccine, but those who chose not to follow the CDC’s recommendations on remaining updated with COVID-19 vaccination, and one could reasonably expect these individuals to have been more likely to have exhibited higher risk- taking behavior. Despite this, their risk of acquiring COVID-19 was lower than those who received a larger number of prior vaccine doses. This is not the only study to find a possible association with more prior vaccine doses and higher risk of COVID-19. A large study found that those who had an Omicron variant infection after previously receiving three doses of vaccine had a higher risk of reinfection than those who had an Omicron variant infection after previously receiving two doses of vaccine [21]. Another study found that receipt of two or three doses of a mRNA vaccine following prior COVID-19 was associated with a higher risk of reinfection than receipt of a single dose

[tossbag]

(in the US where the vaccine was highly politicised)

:D :} :D

And it wasn't here, and everywhere else in the world. I notice Kerryn Phelps and her partner now whinging about vaccine effects.

[Senior Pilot]

How do you get to post about thalidomide ? My posts referencing it get removed.. ?

Flying Binghi Not a single post of yours has been removed nor Moderated on this thread.

Public notice (since you seem unable to note the previous private advice): one more example of publicly moaning about Moderation or Moderators and you won’t have access until next year.

[FatPilot]

You poor bastard, you believe everything you're told? Question nothing? If you look really hard you might find some thalidomide lying around, it's good for morning sickness.
I pitty the fool who cannot see this is about money , not conspirracy def not altruism, not aliens ,not tin foil hats or micrro chips.not conspiarcy theories.
Wake up. money is not a conspiracy it's a way of life. Fpizer has a market cap of almost 300 billion. dollars. moderna 80 billion. dunno about the other's but the shortcutts pfizzer took in testing are well doccumented. thewy want moeny and they want it now. they convinced everyone to have this shot. no one 's getting in the way and everyo0ne 's payed off. Pretty obvious, like the sun rising each day ,amazing how so many just don want to see it.... fingers in ears saying nahnahnah im not listening to you!!! .
Why else do you tihnk the idiots on CHAN 9 news and the rest dont report the side effects. it's caled MONEY. stop crapping on about conspiarcy theories and stop getting angry because you had it an someone else didnt'. . you people watch CHAn 9 news FFS???

You got people here who think the jab just cam along out of the goodness of andwell meaning all fully tested nothing to think twice about.... BS!
i didn't have it , not becassue im worried abotu tin foil or micro chips but becaus i don 't usualy jab myself with stuff that turned up in reccord time, doesn 't even work ,for a bug that won 't even kill me. waste of time. "butt wer'e all in it together ,do it forsocieity" ...BS. pepole do it for themselfs because they convinced there own selfish lives are worth preserving. nothing more nothing less. be honest,.
i had the bug an bearly noticed it. non event. And Im FAT. glad I dont have to worry if my imune sysim still works or not, or which cancer i'll get in 5 to 10 years. But more than that im happy i made my own decision liek an adult on what works for me and told the govt and the mask wearing wackers to GF.

[dr dre]

I notice Kerryn Phelps and her partner now whinging about vaccine effects.

That was already addressed but to re-iterate:

Kerryn Phelps never said she was anti-vaccine, and recommends taking the vaccine as the real benefits outweighs the risks. Just two days ago the group she is a board member of, OzSAGE, put out this submission (https://ozsage.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/OzSAGE-Here-to-Help-Press-Release-20-December-2022-Final-without-contact.pdf), calling for booster shots in children under 5.

Phelps and her group are calling for even stronger vaccines, they want a vaccine that can stop transmission of Omicron. Their POV is that long Covid will cause a disability crisis. Until an omicron stopping vaccine is developed they want a return to mandatory indoor masks, capacity restrictions, mandatory isolation, a return to mass testing, contact tracing, movement restrictions, curfews and even considering returning to lockdowns (https://ozsage.org/ventilation-and-vaccine-plus/). Do they Craig Kelly’s and Malcom Roberts’s of this world actually think she’s on their side?

If anyone thinks Phelps has joined the conspiracy theorists you have the wrong idea, she wants to be even stronger in the Covid response, even today, which the conspiracy theorists would be against.

Instead of those harsh restrictions, or just pretending that Covid isn’t a problem like the conspiracy theorists, I think the mass vaccination was a good middle ground. Do you really want to experience all the masks, movement restrictions, testing, isolation again for another couple of years until an omicron stopping vaccine is found?

[FatPilot]

Yes yes she 's fully on the vaccine team, that's why her husband or wife or whatever is suffering side affects and her face is falling off but she 's okay with uit and she sufered side efects herslef but she 's okay with that too. still mouthing of abuot restrictions and lockdowns against pervailing world opinion . of course she is , she still wants to get paid and still on the team and you lapp it up. Seriously , try to use your nut. You don 't hav to rant about conspiracy theorys but you also don 't have to drink all the kool aid you can get and jump up and down with your panties in a bunch if any one else doesnt' believe all the same crap you get told on CHAN 9 nightly news.

[FatPilot]

Instead of those harsh restrictions, or just pretending that Covid isn’t a problem like the conspiracy theorists, I think the mass vaccination was a good middle ground. Do you really want to experience all the masks, movement restrictions, testing, isolation again for another couple of years until an omicron stopping vaccine is found?
Well you got both . did you enjoy it all ? How many shots are you up to now ? The next one shuold do it. prety sure the next one wil work. all good. If CHAN 9 news says it 'll work i 'll do it..

[Flying Binghi]

Reference the above comments…

Seems Phelps knows there’s an issue though is in a quandary just how to handle it. On the one side her ‘colleagues’ would be saying one thing and yet she is seeing evidence of actual different results. Must be a bit mind bending for her at the moment.


Jo Nova has a ‘cautious’ look-see at the Phelps comments:

“..One of the top doctors in Australia Dr Kerryn Phelps — a familiar face on the news here, has come out saying that she has suffered “devastating” side effects from the Covid vaccines herself. She also says that her doctors are seeing ” ‘a lot’ of patients in a similar situation, but they are afraid to talk about it for fear of being de-registered and losing their career…

..Phelps speculates that 1 in 3000 adult Australians may have had a serious reaction to each Covid vaccine, so after 3 doses, that’s 1 in 1000 and rising with every booster..

​​​​​..If Kerryn Phelps had started a conversation in August or September 2021, perhaps other doctors would have spoken up then too. Fear kept many people silent. Censorship is a life and death thing..”

https://joannenova.com.au/2022/12/former-head-of-australian-medical-association-suffered-devastating-vaccine-effects-says-doctors-are-being-silenced/#more-88452

[tossbag]

Do you really want to experience all the masks, movement restrictions, testing, isolation again for another couple of years until an omicron stopping vaccine is found?

No, I'll tell you what I want, what I really, really want..........

A proportional response to the risk to the population, consider that the median age of deaths in Australia was 84.7, consider that the most common co-morbidity was chronic cardiac conditions.

Holy **** Batman, what if we tactically isolated those most at risk, what if we financially supported those most at risk and allow those not at risk to go about their business, do you think we would have saved billions of dollars, our international reputation and wouldn't have made heroes out of dead**** politicians, but most of all Batman, is it actually true that there were 20,000 more, yes 20,000 more excess deaths in 2022 than the baseline average? Holy **** Batman, did we sacrifice 20,000 peoples medical care and mental well being to save a bunch of people that were going to die in the next few years anyway?

[dr dre]

Instead of listening to cookers put their spin on Phelps’s words, why not listen to this interview where she, radio host Josh Szeps and a prominent Cardiologist explain the statements in greater detail and in terms most people can understand.

People should note that between them about a half a dozen times they say (in fact they make it abundantly clear) that vaccination is essential as any side effects are not as bad as the consequences of the virus. And cookers should note that Phelps wants “Vaccine Plus”, where she wants mandatory masks and isolation brought back until stronger vaccines are developed. Her comments do not back up the cooker cause I’m afraid:

The rare side effects of Covid vaccines in the spotlight (https://www.abc.net.au/sydney/programs/breakfast/vaccine-side-effects/101796390)

[slats11]

Interesting paper showing correlation between increased number of doses of vaccine and increased cases of C19 infection.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.12.17.22283625v1.full.pdf

51,000 employees of Cleveland Clinic, so its not a small study.


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1124x634/screen_shot_2022_12_22_at_8_46_15_pm_4c85f5c456242477d37b831 8da5e2895e5be6485.png

C (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.12.17.22283625v1.full.pdf)ould be lots of reasons for this, and correlation in an observational study is not causation.

Maybe those most concerned about C19 are more likely to vax and also more likely to test themselves if any symptoms.
Or maybe older sicker are more likely to vax and more likely to come into contact with health system and be diagnosed with incidental infection - although in this study they were all employees of a health organisation and so they were all of working age and sufficiently well to be working.
Or maybe those who vax are higher risk (either older, or increased occupational risk) and thus really do get more infections (as above, this may be a significant factor in this particular study of working age people).
Or maybe vax does (somehow - ?? ADE) predispose you to infection.

Conversely, it seems quite likely that those people who avoided the vaccine had a higher risk tolerance - and hence may be more likely to acquire the infection. However the non-faxed had fewer infections.

The data is a mess and it’s very difficult to tease out.

However several studies from different countries have all found similar results over the past 12 months. More vaccine is associated (for whatever reason) with more infections.

[Flying Binghi]

Instead of listening to cookers put their spin on Phelps’s words, why not listen to this interview where she, radio host Josh Szeps and a prominent Cardiologist explain the statements in greater detail and in terms most people can understand.

People should note that between them about a half a dozen times they say (in fact they make it abundantly clear) that vaccination is essential as any side effects are not as bad as the consequences of the virus. And cookers should note that Phelps wants “Vaccine Plus”, where she wants mandatory masks and isolation brought back until stronger vaccines are developed. Her comments do not back up the cooker cause I’m afraid:

The rare side effects of Covid vaccines in the spotlight (https://www.abc.net.au/sydney/programs/breakfast/vaccine-side-effects/101796390)

Hmmm… the ABC eh..:hmm:

More Phelps comments:

Dr Phelps said both reactions were reported to the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) “but never followed up”. She revealed she had spoken with other doctors “who have themselves experienced a serious and persistent adverse event” but that “vaccine injury is a subject that few in the medical profession have wanted to talk about”.


https://joannenova.com.au/2022/12/former-head-of-australian-medical-association-suffered-devastating-vaccine-effects-says-doctors-are-being-silenced/#more-88452

[dr dre]

Hmmm… the ABC eh



Well yeah. They’re the ones who’ve given Kerryn Phelps a long format interview to explain and expand on her comments.

Maybe take it as a hint that she isn’t running onto Graham Hood’s channel as to who she best believes will portray her message accurately.

[Flying Binghi]

Instead of listening to cookers put their spin on Phelps’s words, why not listen to this interview where she, radio host Josh Szeps and a prominent Cardiologist explain the statements in greater detail and in terms most people can understand.

People should note that between them about a half a dozen times they say (in fact they make it abundantly clear) that vaccination is essential as any side effects are not as bad as the consequences of the virus. And cookers should note that Phelps wants “Vaccine Plus”, where she wants mandatory masks and isolation brought back until stronger vaccines are developed. Her comments do not back up the cooker cause I’m afraid:

The rare side effects of Covid vaccines in the spotlight (https://www.abc.net.au/sydney/programs/breakfast/vaccine-side-effects/101796390)

I’m not surprised then that Joanne Nova made some ‘cautious’ comments re Phelps. Jo Nova were very pro lockdown, etc. A stance I disagree with.

As to the ABC ‘interview’, well…:D…….:) Seems half the time the ABC chap were stating the ‘facts’ and the other two, Phelps and Walker, were nodding their heads so to speak..

Of interest, that Walker chap makes money from his radio and TV interviews. I wonder how many more ‘interviews’ he would get if he had some doubts about the vaccines..:hmm:

“..Dr. Ross also appears weekly on the national Macquarie Radio network & the Super Radio network. He had his own national radio show, Healthy Living for 8 years on radio 2UE. Healthy Living recommenced nationally on the Macquarie Radio network on March 29th 2020..

..Dr Walker is a non-executive director for MGC Pharmaceuticals, a company researching, developing & marketing medical cannabis around the world..”

Now thats an idea. Maryjane to the rescue. All pilots should smoke a joint preflight to stop that china virus thingy..;)




https://www.drrosswalker.com/about-us/

[tossbag]

I don't care what she wants, don't care whether she's pro vax or not, don't care whether she's a pronoun warrior, green champion or anti coal zealot. What I made a comment on is her whinging about the vaccine effects. She's got about as much credibility as Brett Sutton, that's why she was unceremoniously dumped in Wentworth. Good riddance to you and your ilk.

[dragon man]

https://igorchudov.substack.com/p/covid-boosters-are-killing-germans?publication_id=441185&isFreemail=true

Look forward to why he is wrong.

[Bend alot]

The vaccine wains - FACT.

Australia only will give you 4 shots.

You can not buy it to even keep current (every 3 months get a booster).

Most only ever got stabbed twice (never protected against omnicron or decatron variants - EVER)

If history repeats again - manufactures will soon remove this product (unless the governments re mandate it's use).

8-10 years from now the court cases will be costly (again if history repeats on the last pandemic).

[NumptyAussie]

The vaccine wains - FACT.

Australia only will give you 4 shots.

You can not buy it to even keep current (every 3 months get a booster).

Most only ever got stabbed twice (never protected against omnicron or decatron variants - EVER)

If history repeats again - manufactures will soon remove this product (unless the governments re mandate it's use).

8-10 years from now the court cases will be costly (again if history repeats on the last pandemic).
to which pandemic are you referring?