NPAS News 2022

[RotaryJ]

Happy New Year Everyone, hoping that 2022 is a great year for all of us!

It's going to be an interesting year ahead in the land of NPAS:

The planes are to go... Currently lots of head scratching from the NPAS SLT.

Still no force is wanting to step up to take over West Yorkshire Police, leaving the MPS and WMP feeling pressurised into taking NPAS into their hands.

BVLOS drones to happen or fantasy? Half job rotary fleet replacement? Who knows...

I'm also waiting patiently for the next issue of PAN! :)

[Cabby]

Happy New Year Everyone, hoping that 2022 is a great year for all of us!

It's going to be an interesting year ahead in the land of NPAS:

The planes are to go... Currently lots of head scratching from the NPAS SLT.

Still no force is wanting to step up to take over West Yorkshire Police, leaving the MPS and WMP feeling pressurised into taking NPAS into their hands.

BVLOS drones to happen or fantasy? Half job rotary fleet replacement? Who knows...

I'm also waiting patiently for the next issue of PAN! :)

Maybe a question for the next quiz on tv.

Question: Which of the following will win the NPAS baton?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_police_forces_of_the_United_Kingdom

Answer A... BTP

Answer B... Humberside

Answer C... MOD police

I think BTP might have it with it being a national set up ;) :oh:

Is there a press release about selling the planes?

[RotaryJ]

There isn't a press release, the subject features quite heavily in the most recent meeting minutes that is uploaded on the NPAS website.

[PANews]

Thank you Rotary I had not noticed them.... a month to study them now!

Initially though these minutes do not improve the situation one bit.So all the fixed wing are to go now – along with the 25 lease at Doncaster. Two from four does strain the economics somewhat, who does the sums at NPAS? I "failed" in Secondary Modern and yet all these people with good education and University top ups do not have a clue!

These are of course 3 months ago and yet there is no sign that the forces have decided to pick up NPAS. I see that the larger forces are being expected to say why they would not want to run NPAS.... where did they begin?

A real horror story that never seems to end.

[MightyGem]

The latest wheeze for drones instead of helicopters. :rolleyes:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10362349/Plan-DRONES-spotlight-thermal-camera-protect-women-walking-night.html

[PANews]

Having had a little time to read through the latest sets of minutes to be released by NPAS it is clear they continue the thread of "its only public money", and therefore of no account when seeking best value.



As always expensive items are simply picked up and tossed aside regardless of the cost. The purchasing of bases and the fixed wing are the prime examples but there have been so many more from transport to working practices. Even if there are intelligent, well trained beings in the organisation, the outside world has for too long been getting projected the idea that they are all idiots. Clearly they are not, there cannot be that many in one place. It is just that the unknowing rule the roost and talk down the good advice. There must be some good advice in NPAS I have heard it..... but it seemingly never rises to the top.



Perhaps the problem lies in size. There seems to be a belated realisation that the project needed a lead police force that was big in the first place. Now they are looking at a couple of large forces to take up the task (in March!!!!). For them NPAS might be a relatively small division but for West Yorkshire it was a monster they could not control. At the beginning most of the forces were set against a large force undertaking the task – jealousies prevailed. And yet, for all its faults, the Metropolitan Police had operated multiple aircraft of varied types for years yet the police chiefs agreed to West Yorkshire, the volunteer that had never operated multiple aircraft in its history, taking on the role.



If only it were that easy. There are other elephants in the cupboard. The interference, sorry guidance, by the National Police Chiefs Council and the gargantuan NPAS Strategic Board, each mainly filled with people who do not have a clue how to run an aircraft operation need to butt out and go back to growing roses or do cooking not interfere with aircraft things.



When the Metropolitan Police had six helicopters on strength the operation was run, quite adequately by a police inspector and a couple of sergeants who reported to the commissioners on mutually acceptable dates at the Scotland Yard HQ. The operation was part of a larger division [TO and SO] that did all sorts of specialist roles, and if it worked at a reasonable price when required it was allowed to do what it knew with little or no interference. The West Yorkshire experience has been interference from the start.



The latest from the NPAS Strategic Board, a monolith of the unknowledgeable is that they want to bring in all sorts of additional representatives. They are already straining under the virtual presence of three dozen attendees and eight apologies and now they want more! This is not a strategic meeting this is a quarterly conference and a million miles away from an inspector popping up to Scotland Yard to brief the unknowing. It is also worth noting that the NPCC answer to its many worries was to call in a now retired "an inspector" for advice. No one is perfect but ... an inspector? That must really stick in the craw of many a County Police ACCs throat.


I cannot see the Met accepting a Strategic Board, that must go first. They can have the minutes to read every quarter if they must. If not it will never work.

[ShyTorque]

So these fixed wing assets aren’t fit for purpose. Many were saying from the outset (myself included) that they were the wrong aircraft for the role, for many reasons. It’s a travesty that all this public money is being wasted, simply cast aside it seems.

The rationale for the forming of NPAS was to save money whilst improving efficiency. The organisation has failed miserably on both counts and it seems to get worse as more time goes by.

As a founder member and ex chief pilot* of a now disbanded police ASU, I can no longer bear to watch police “camera action” type TV programmes because I get frustrated seeing how the public and police drivers are often unnecessarily put at risk during vehicle pursuits due to the failure of NPAS to provide a helicopter. The unit I flew for had a good record of the police drivers being able to back off and sometimes even switch off their blue lights once we arrived overhead, which had the effect of calming a “fail to stop” situation. We could still provide continuity of evidence which still resulted in arrests, but with less risk to those on the ground, including innocent members of the public. One can only wonder how much more money has been wasted due to unnecessary damage to police vehicles caused during these incidents.

Bringing in more and more personnel to committees and studies at this late stage (at high cost) seems to indicate desperation. They should have listened to the qualified and experienced aviation experts already in post.

*I wish to make it clear that I wasn’t put out of a job by the formation of NPAS. I had already moved on from police aviation quite some years before it was formed.

[PANews]

While the fixed wing airframe was predicted to be the wrong aircraft and was, it is still not a lost cause. They have four and they should be using all four for their service life [if not actually buying the other two planned].

Buying four wrong aircraft is not the end of the world but simply dumping them is crass. They transport exactly the same role equipment to the scene as the helicopters do and might stay on scene for a little longer and, as newer airframes, they should provide better overall availability. Not perfect but better than nothing.

What is happening is that the NPCC are throwing all their toys out so they will have none. They ditched the Explorers which was sensible on a cost basis but reduced their overall aircraft numbers then delayed the replacement waiting for FIKI [when the alternatives already had it]. Six f/w at Doncaster will solve a lot of short term problems.

Beggars and all that.

[tigerfish]

The NPAS structure was wrong right from the start! Yes it is a NATIONAL Police Air Service, but the National bit should only have meant Policy and Central purchasing etc. Service Delivery should be on a Regional basis not a national basis. Regions know what is best for them, and should be able to act accordingly. After the West Yorkshire failure, It is understandable that no force wants the same problems, but a Regional responsibility would be well within the capabilities of most larger Forces.

This went wrong right from the start when NPAS was set up with only one main aim, - that of Saving Shed loads of money! Increasing efficiency and effectiveness was never the aim!

TF

[Rigga]

In my little experience I knew just one 'an Inspector' who knew his aviation stuff. And even he never interfered with those working in their particular 'professions' within the ASU. Lets hope it's that 'an Inspector'...

[PANews]

Although I had one specific 'an inspector' in mind I deliberately did not mention his name (although it was he that was called in to help) because the same applied in many ways to his immediate predecessor and the couple before him. The difference was that they were not called in as they had been out of air support for several years.

In a broader sense I could put up several other 'an inspector' people who ran their operations well, or very well, and were therefore savvy but most of them did not fit in with the multi-aircraft operator that was also part of the thrust of the text at 6 above.

[black.beard]

If (as some have suggested) these 4 FW frames are to be sh1t canned then it will be a tragic waste of public money. Quite why there is so much 'hate' for these FW aircraft is a total mystery to me, and frankly does nothing more than confirm the silo mentality within the wider UK Police and the farcical lack of aviation knowledge within NPAS.

These individuals do not seem to give 2 sh1ts about the waste of public money, instead they care more about their own self-serving agendas and career progression. As a tax payer, I could nt give a rats how various criminals are caught and brought to justice - only that they are caught and are brought to justice; I don't care whether its a FW, or a RW, or a drone in the sky - I care that good people do their job and catch the badies.

The unavoidable facts regarding FW assets are that they offer a significant cost saving/flying hour/maintenance hour; over any existing Police RW asset.
Are they perfect? No but dovetail the operations of FW with RW, and together they provide much better coverage to the UK Police Air Support - demonstrated capably during G7 and COP26.

[ShyTorque]

I politely suggest that you search for and read what has been previously discussed here about the lack of suitability for these aircraft in this particular role. It all proved to be true.

[black.beard]

I politely suggest that you search for and read what has been previously discussed here about the lack of suitability for these aircraft in this particular role. It all proved to be true.

Proved?
I politely suggest that perhaps some of us have different definitions of the word "Prove". All I can see is opinions, based upon inaccuracies and assumptions. Either way I think we shall just agree to disagree

[EESDL]

If (as some have suggested) these 4 FW frames are to be sh1t canned then it will be a tragic waste of public money. Quite why there is so much 'hate' for these FW aircraft is a total mystery to me, and frankly does nothing more than confirm the silo mentality within the wider UK Police and the farcical lack of aviation knowledge within NPAS.

These individuals do not seem to give 2 sh1ts about the waste of public money, instead they care more about their own self-serving agendas and career progression. As a tax payer, I could nt give a rats how various criminals are caught and brought to justice - only that they are caught and are brought to justice; I don't care whether its a FW, or a RW, or a drone in the sky - I care that good people do their job and catch the badies.

The unavoidable facts regarding FW assets are that they offer a significant cost saving/flying hour/maintenance hour; over any existing Police RW asset.
Are they perfect? No but dovetail the operations of FW with RW, and together they provide much better coverage to the UK Police Air Support - demonstrated capably during G7 and COP26.
so how long do you keep throwing hard-earned public money after FW assets so that they can finally deliver their potential?
the crime here is the decision to continue throwing good after bad.

[ShyTorque]

Proved?
I politely suggest that perhaps some of us have different definitions of the word "Prove". All I can see is opinions, based upon inaccuracies and assumptions.

Unless you expect an official statement from NPAS admitting they completely messed this up, what else do you expect?

However, as an ex police chief pilot, also a fixed wing CPL holder, at least I do have a certain amount of knowledge of the job and I keep in contact with some ex colleagues who remain in the role.

The police spent a very large amount of public money on these aircraft and new accommodation for them, including a long lease agreement for the hangar at Doncaster airport, despite professional advice that they were far from ideal for the role. They spent a lot more public money gaining for an icing clearance for them, which it appears they didn’t initially understand would be needed. They were advertised as more capable in this respect than existing helicopters, which was false at the time. They use relatively ancient piston engines when many of the larger airfields open at night no longer supply the AVGAS they need, limiting where they can be flown and radius of operation. Also, these are high wing aircraft with relatively small windows which means that when turning on scene (which they must continually do, of course, being unable to hover) the job is more difficult to keep in the line of sight. The restricted payload of the type means that only one observer can be carried, rather than the two previously carried on helicopters and initially planned for, which only incredibly only became apparent to the hierarchy after the deal was done.

None of those points are just my opinion.

Now they are to be disposed of, after very few years of productive service. If they were fit for purpose, they would be kept for many more years.

[EESDL]

Just read the advert for 5 pilots offering paltry pay with the hope of Tupe'ing across when it goes tits-up again - where do I sign???

[Bravo73]

From that current NPAS advert:

”Those applying for NPAS London should be aware that the provision of Air Support for London is being outsourced to a commercial provider and pilots based at NPAS are likely to transfer (under TUPE) to the new provider in approximately 18 months’ time.” (My bold).

[Brutal]

Transfer under TUPE to the new provider...so they take the 59-62k +7k ( so basic pay is 66-69+) market factor with them? This puts the laughable Babcock HEMs latest vacancies pay look rather pathetic...About time BC caught up with the rest of the onshore market?:=
Anyone know what SAS pays their commanders?
There is now becoming a very serious experienced helicopter pilot shortage in the UK. To their credit, It's why NPAS put the market factor payment onto the basic pay:ok:
Fly safe.
B.

[black.beard]

Attempting to bring some objectivity to what seems to be a discussion of the misinformed/promote own agenda/silo mentality/FW bitch fest. I did a bit of research (as advised) and discovered the following.

“They use relatively ancient piston engines” The Lycoming IO engine designed and flew in 1960's apparently this suggests it is a 'poor performer' and there are better engines. The IO360 engine is built like the proverbial 'brick out-house' it is extremely robust, reliable and fuel-efficient. For comparison the P&W PT6 engine was built around the same time and is widely regarded as amongst the best in class. I have never heard negative comments on this engine; rather that it is amongst the best turbine engine of its category and is used in RW and FW.

It has a limited payload and consequently can only have 2 crew – not true. How does anyone think ‘line checks’ or TFO checks/training flts are carried out? The normal FW crewing is 2. The Observer operates the radios AND the cameras. Whereas RW has 3 crew 1 pilot & 2 Observers 1 operating the radios the other operating the cameras.

The high wing design means that is has small windows; If it was a ‘low wing’ aircraft the wings would obscure the camera and Observer LoS surely

Only operates from limited number of airfields due to AvGas availability – not true see below. Additionally there was also a Value For Money issue by “throwing hard earned public money away” – if anyone wishes to look at the map they could discover that just 1 of those sorties lasted almost 9 hrs yes 9 HOURS covering a vast area of the UK’s policing needs. Therefore it represents excellent Value For Money and also could solve the opinion of never needing to land to refuel with this extremely scarce AvGas.

Purchase costs: 1 x P68 costs approximately £900,000: 1 x H145 costs circa £6million – do the maths

Please look at Twitter at NPAS NorthEast the map is there in all its glory and shows where the P68 has operated from and covered

Good Morning from

NPAS East team. With the help of clever software we've tracked tasking since 2019. The map shows the range of locations in, the majority of deployments are from our base at NPAS Doncaster, however we've utilised numerous airports and smaller airfields

[Fortyodd2]

Black Beard – no FW Bitch fest intended. However, if you’ve been in the business a while you will know that the 2nd most expensive single item is the wrong aircraft – not only did you buy it but you now have to spend even more on it in an attempt to make it the right aircraft. One P68 may cost £900K but NPAS bought four, then had to spend more on converting them to the police role, then insisting on them being capable of flight into known icing which added more cost, then getting them all certified again which added more cost. Add to that the undercarriage/high wing configuration that limited the choice of camera to the “Sub-optimal” camera system which was subsequently fitted. Nobody is ”Anti Fixed wing” but, like the helicopter, they have their strengths and weaknesses. The purchase of a fixed wing solution that played to its strengths – endurance, ability to operate at greater heights with a larger and more capable camera – as the military does and GMP used to do - would have made sense. Buying them to replace the proven rotary fleet in the hope of saving money was a poor decision. UK Policing has long been in the business of spending millions to save a few pounds and has little concept that spending can also be investing if it brings results.

NPAS trialed fixed wings prior to purchase (Based at an RAF Helicopter Unit in the Thames Valley area) and, having seen the trial reports, I wouldn’t have bought a bucket that performed that badly never mind an aircraft. It doesn’t matter how “Cheap” it is to buy or operate, if it can’t do what you purchased it for then it is not “Best Value”. If you put so much role equipment in it that it cannot maintain level flight on one engine then it was a poor decision. If you buy an aircraft than runs on a fuel type not readily available in the wee small hours then it was a poor decision. If you buy an aircraft that takes 10 minutes to start up from cold and then has to taxy to a runway to take off then it is not an ideal “reactive” platform. The pre-purchase trial showed that for a task less than 17 miles from the base, the rotary platform would always get to the task quicker than the chosen fixed wing operating from the same location. Speed of arrival means that the “Search Area” is smaller as the scrote/misper has less time to move from place last seen. If you buy an aircraft before you decide where you are going to base it, hangar it or how you will crew it then it was a poor decision. If, during the purchase process, you keep changing your mind about which propellors you want to fit then it was a poor decision. If you have to keep looking for ways to shave weight from your role equipment in order for the aircraft to meet its performance requirements for certification then it was a poor decision. If you buy an aircraft for the purpose of observation and surveillance at lower altitudes and then choose one with small windows and only one crew member looking out of them whilst the other has twice the workload they used to have then it was a poor decision.

Yes, you can have 3 crew on board for line checks and even for ops – but you won’t be airborne for 9 hours or anything close to it. I remember well when Westlands were selling the Lynx to the Army as a multi role aircraft that could carry 8 TOW Missiles plus reloads, 8 fully armed troops and have fuel for 2 ½ hours. Sounded great and all three statements were true – but not all at the same time – 8 troops meant around 35 mins fuel. 8 TOW missiles meant no troops and not much more fuel. The same salesman was around this time and all those who pointed out the shortcomings were demonised and silenced by the Senior Officers in charge.

For an idea of what could have been – with all the required kit, bells, whistles, legroom and headroom - Google “DA62 MPP”.

Anti-fixed wing? – emphatically No.

Anti poor decision making based on assumptions and little or no experience of the task required – I’m in the same camp as Tigerfish on that one.

[MightyGem]

Excellent summation, Forty. I'm going to save that. :ok:

[ReefPilot]

Confirmed: All FW to be retained as national assets based at Doncaster

[[email protected]]

DA 62 MPP certainly looks the business, what does it cost? You wouldn't be doing much visual searching in that but that's probably not required much nowadays with such good sensors.

[[email protected]]

Is there an over 60 cutoff for NPAS pilots?

[ShyTorque]

Public transport, single pilot…..

[Cabby]

Is there an over 60 cutoff for NPAS pilots?

Does that count for the TRE's?

How many pilots, and TRE's do NPAS currently employ?

[ShyTorque]

I’ve not worked for NPAS but in my time in that role the company TREs also flew as line pilots.

[Cabby]

I’ve not worked for NPAS but in my time in that role the company TREs also flew as line pilots.

Recalled a 2018 advert for training captains.

Training dept chiefs must be on more. £100k - £120k?

https://westyorkshirepolice.tal.net/SAN/live/bespoke/system/461/7b8072d9-7894-4aa8-8dfe-000581d496f4/css/brand/3/img/WYP-Logo.png (https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/recruitment)XP147 Training CaptainLocation
National Police Air Service
Salary
£75,000 to £80,000 per annum

Job Advert
Training Captain
National Police Air Service (NPAS)
Wakefield

Part of the 2018 advert below:
"NPAS is the national provider of air support to the Police Forces of England and Wales with West Yorkshire Police being the lead Force. As part of its commitment to delivering the National Police Air Service, West Yorkshire Police is looking to recruit a Training Captain.

In this exciting and challenging role, you will report to the Head of Training to achieve the delivery of a safe, cost effective and high quality service, within appropriate strategic, fiscal and regulatory provisions. You will plan, conduct training and examination tasks to meet EASA and CAA standards as detailed by the NPAS Approved Training Organisation and NPAS Operations Manual.

Eligible candidates must hold a current EASA Part-FCL Commercial Pilots Licence (Helicopters) with single pilot instrument, multi-engine helicopter, TRI (H) ratings IR, RT Licence and a current EASA Class 1 medical certificate for single pilot operations carrying passengers.

All applicants must hold EASA Type Rating Instructor (TRI) and Type Rating Examiner (TRE) H Licensing Certificate for single pilot, multi-engine helicopters.

This post is suitable for job share. The online application process will close at 23:55 hours on 30th November 2018."

[[email protected]]

Public transport, single pilot….. I thought that was the case but wondered if they had an exemption - thanks Shy.

[PANews]

This morning the Air Accidents Investigation Branch published a 24 page report into an investigation into a "serious incident involving an MBB-BK 117 helicopter which occurred on 12th March 2021 at North Weald Airfield, Essex."

[OvertHawk]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/aaib-report-g-mpsb-heavy-landing-during-simulated-single-engine-training-north-weald-airfield-essex

[garlichopper]

"Fixed wing air support extended to all England and WalesWednesday 9 February 2022

The National Strategic Board, which governs the National Police Air Service (NPAS) has taken the decision to extend the service provided by its fleet of four fix wing aircraft to support policing operations across England and Wales.

Chair of the National Strategic Board, John Campion said: “Since January 2020, the aeroplanes have mainly served the North East region, from their base in Doncaster. The aircraft will now be used to support operational policing, in conjunction with the helicopter fleet, across England and Wales.

“Following consideration of the fleet’s capability, endurance and cost, the Board determined that the aeroplanes offer increased value as a national asset.

“The excellent endurance of the aeroplanes makes them particularly suitable for policing large scale events, as well as being highly effective in conducting lengthy searches and carrying out prolonged vehicle pursuits.”

NPAS operates four aeroplanes from its base in Doncaster.

Crewed by a pilot plus one tactical flight officer, the aircraft are kitted out with the same mission equipment as police helicopters, with a specialist camera, mapping system, downlink transmitters and UK-wide radio communication.

Once in flight, they can remain airborne for around eight hours, covering a range of 800 miles.

Between January 2020 and December 2021, the aeroplanes were deployed 1,564 times.

The service is currently seeking to recruit two additional fixed wing pilots to join the Doncaster-based crews.

The National Strategic Board which governs NPAS comprises nine Chief Constables and nine Police and Crime Commissioners, each representing the regions of England and Wales.

NPAS was formed in 2012 as part of a national collaborative agreement and is funded by the police forces.

It operates 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and has a fleet of 19 helicopters operating from 15 bases plus the four aeroplanes."

[MightyGem]

On the bus, off the bus. :confused:

[tigerfish]

NPAS now provides a very small fraction of the effective Police Air support that was available across the Country before its creation!

TF

[ShyTorque]

Once in flight, they can remain airborne for around eight hours, covering a range of 800 miles.

“On paper” (!), maybe but bearing in mind that these aircraft have no “facilities”, how long can the crews hold out?

800 miles in 8 hours…..so they now cruise at only 100 knots? What happened to the business case claims that they were much faster than the helicopters they were to replace?

[Cabby]

NPAS are advertising for fixed wing pilots..
Closing date 29th Feb
https://twitter.com/NPAShq

Good luck to those pilots out of work at the moment :ok:

[Dusty_B]

P68 will cruise at 150 kts, faster still if you pour more fuel in to it.
It will loiter comfortably at 80-100 kts burning a lot less fuel.
As for physiological endurance, I used to regularly fly 8 hour surveys (now flying kerosine burner that can't dream of staying up that long). I've never used a travel john... but the advantage of a fixed wing is "look Mum, no hands!" :E

[ShyTorque]

Dusty,

I know about the cruise speed. It’s similar to modern helicopters. But I can also do basic mathematics.

[MightyGem]

but the advantage of a fixed wing is "look Mum, no hands!
Believe it or not, you can do that in helicopters these days. :rolleyes:

[ShyTorque]

They can fly in cloud, too.

[Fortyodd2]

They can fly in cloud, too.

They certainly can - but, it doesn't matter how clever your "Fully IFR & FIKI" platform is - be it rotary or fixed wing, it's purpose is to transport the camera pod, TFO's and radios to the scene of an incident.
If, when it gets there, said camera and TFO's cannot see the ground because of cloud/fog then they are bringing nothing useful to the party.

[ShyTorque]

Fortyodd2,
Yes, exactly. Hence the PR bumph initially put out by NPAS about how much better a fixed wing was going to be "because it could fly in worse weather" was nonsense of the first degree.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Agreed. Unless your Force heli exists primarily as a means to transport the Chief Constable around, and you need your pilots to turn down operational tasking to keep their IRs current, then a police helicopter in cloud is just a helicopter. I wonder which Force I could be thinking of...

[J.A.F.O.]

On a lighter note, Above the Law is now out as an audiobook. Above the Law :ok:

[southwest lad]

Agreed. Unless your Force heli exists primarily as a means to transport the Chief Constable around, and you need your pilots to turn down operational tasking to keep their IRs current, then a police helicopter in cloud is just a helicopter. I wonder which Force I could be thinking of...

Or use the IR to get to the remote incident via a IFR transit and instrument approach to VFR when the weather in between would keep a VFR pilot on the ground. Or an expeditious way of rtb in a straight line to refuel and be ready of the next task rather than struggling back low level at risk if the weather is not as advertised. Or delivering or collecting an operationally needed a/c from a maintenance provider when the weather is poor that would leave it grounded under VFR. Other than that, no real use, yes.

[ShyTorque]

No different to an IFR equipped helicopter.

But VFR rules for rotary wing are less stringent than for fixed wing. So some marginal weather jobs that cannot be completed under VFR by a fixed wing could be done by a helicopter.

[Phoinix]

True true, never thought of it that way, but yes.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

southwest lad, I've used IR variously with police helis (way up north), Air Ambulance (including a HEMS task from the Pennines to ILS minima at Blackpool) and a particular utility operation in all the circumstances you have described, as well as positioning for/ recovering from training and moving the Chief Exec and team around on the annual brief-and-talk-to-the-workforce rounds. My thinly-disguised gripe was with a particular force - one which despite its large area had among the lowest operational hours per year among UK police helis - and it's, er, sub-optimal approach to operational use of a very valuable force asset.

[backtothebeat]

This wasnt a southern constabulary who's chief was a major player in NPAs by any chcance was it..? :rolleyes:

[Thud_and_Blunder]

If you're referring to one with the force HQ right next to the only Motorway in the region, but whose traffic units (remember those?) did not employ a protocol for heli-control of pursuits because they knew it would never be available, then yes, it was.

[black.beard]

“On paper” (!), maybe but bearing in mind that these aircraft have no “facilities”, how long can the crews hold out?

800 miles in 8 hours…..so they now cruise at only 100 knots? What happened to the business case claims that they were much faster than the helicopters they were to replace?
#should_a_gone_to_spec_savers, talksh1te I suggest you re-read post #21 again, the FW aircraft HAVE FLOWN for 9 HOURS on Ops it isn't fiction it is fact!

[ShyTorque]

#should_a_gone_to_spec_savers, talksh1te I suggest you re-read post #21 again, the FW aircraft HAVE FLOWN for 9 HOURS on Ops it isn't fiction it is fact!

Then I suggest YOU read post #34, which is what I quoted, not from yours.

And I also suggest you read the forum rules.

[4468]

I wonder how many posts there’d be here regarding police fixed wing flying, if only those with relevant first hand experience were invited to make pronouncements? How typical of police aviation. Strong opinions based on little first hand knowledge. All part of the problem.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Reading this thread always leaves me with the impression that is full of a bunch of whinging misfits. Police aviation is about protecting the public. Catching scrotes or finding misters etc. the ****e talked about IFR and the benefits it offers to police ops is dangerous. Having spent a fair chunk of time flying VFR and IFR I would state that if you are not in very regular practice in either discipline you will struggle. Converting VFR to IFR on an op like police and EMS is fraught with risks and probably scuppers the very urgency required of the task. Converting IFR to VFR…..best done during an IAP, or above MSA (so why not remain VFR).
in my day we got airborne as fast as possible, gripped and ripped it to the task with the ground in plain sight. You can’t catch a scrote in a cloud. Giving a police pilot who’s normal role is VFR and IR is like handing a loaded gun to………….an actor! Eventually he will try to use it.

[PANews]

Double Bogey the fixed wing (sorry I know this is Rotorheads) fixation with IFR was all about delivering the service from a clear air base (VFR) to a clear air area of need (VFR) through mucky weather (IFR) but somewhere along the way the basics got lost. That police air support is not a IFR task at the point of delivery is a long held truth but when you are trying to sell it to get the £10M funding four aircraft from people who do not understand such things the truth may get a little bent. In this case it most certainly did.

The world can stand aghast at what arguments will next be put forward to fund the use of [rotary] BVLOS drones. That will be a real loaded gun because no one will perceive that getting it wrong will kill people.

[RotaryJ]

Any news on who will becoming the new lead force for NPAS?

It's all a bit quiet at the moment from NPAS HQ... apart from the boring BVLOS Drones Tender, there has been no meeting minutes uploaded by NPAS for 2022.

Still no information how the aeroplanes are going to be deployed nationally.... will all aircraft still be stationed at DSA? forwarded to operate from bases across E&W? New permanent bases for these to operate from?

Then there's a fleet replacement that has been in the works since like 2016? Oh? No news on that either!!

I know this post seems like I'm having a big old rant, but emergency aviation in GB doesn't have the same exciting feeling as it used to.

[Cabby]

The governments initial proposals into setting up NPAS thought that BTP would be the ideal organisation to run NPAS.

Part of the NPCC archives regarding the formation of NPAS shown below. Its shown on the internet.

BTP would save money paying for their own rail patrols if they took over. Will the Home Office offer them more money to run NPAS?

"6.5 British Transport Police (BTP) are one of the very few organisations that have national control rooms. Discussions are therefore ongoing with BTP to establish whether they are able to host the NPAS dispatch facility."

[JulieAndrews]

any news on the Wakefield divestment - the year is almost up?

[PANews]

Early in May an associate contacted the West Yorkshire Combined Authority for a comment on the position relating to the leadership of the National Police Air Service. The reply on progress was simply a stall statement.

With a month to go it is not going to happen within the stated year. The two forces likely to do anything about it have their own problems with a chief constable retiring, a major event to plan and there being no commissioner in London. If nothing else they will be months off a 'yes' and why would they ever say yes?

Meanwhile, the failed organisation, NPAS remains wholly in charge of all that is manned and those that do not have air support, and it is not everyone of course, are finding that most of their day-to-day air support needs can be met by drones in their own control.

I would suppose that the biggest danger by far to the future is that someone proposes that NPAS gets into some sort of national drone operation and complete destroys that too.

And of course they have said that they want to get into drones. Fortunately perhaps they have been saying just that since at least 2017 and have not yet managed anything that was not provided by others.

Its all down to weak management of course, not in West Yorkshire they are as bolshy as ever, it is elsewhere. The Home Office is massively distracted by Migrants and key staff are probably more interested in getting the children to the zoo whilst working from home and when it comes to oversight of each other the NPCC are simply not keen at shouting "wos going on?" or stabbing each other in the back just in case it effects their mental health profile. I got further bad news for them, it seems that Ibuprofen is now deemed bad for you.

[gipsymagpie]

Statement by Mayor of West Yorkshire (https://www.westyorks-ca.gov.uk/policing-and-crime-news/mayor-agrees-extension-to-npas-withdrawal-deadline/)
unsurprisingly it's been pushed by 2 years.

[PANews]

I we could all spend all day dismantling that statement which appears not to have been written by Mayor Tracey.

But I have another one from a different mayor to marvel at. It appeared on line as a quote from the London Assembly Hansard last month.In late June a member of the London Assembly, Unmesh Desai, put in a request for information after receiving a number of complaints from members of the public on Brewer Street, in the Soho District of central London. He was asking on average how many Police helicopters are there flying over London per day and how often do they fly past Brewer Street?



The Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, replied that although the Metropolitan Police advised that it was not possible to indicate how many times a police helicopter has transited specifically over Brewer Street.

In contrast NPAS stated they spend limited time over central London due to the extensive Closed Circuit TV network that can provide similar imagery overview. That is the future then, CCTV and drones.

The Mayor was provided with information regarding deployments of NPAS helicopters to Westminster postcodes between January and May 2022 inclusive:

January 1

February 5

March 1

April 2

May 0

In five months only 9 passes were made over Soho central London with a helicopter from a fleet of four?

It is fair to say that those people with knowledge of police helicopter flights over central London ‘a few years ago’ were horrified at the low numbers.
NPAS London struggled to get anything over the Jubilee celebrations, just one 145 out of four it now has allocated. The real reason may well be mechanical and management related.

[Rigga]

It is fair to say that those people with knowledge of police helicopter flights over central London ‘a few years ago’ were horrified at the low numbers.
NPAS London struggled to get anything over the Jubilee celebrations, just one 145 out of four it now has allocated. The real reason may well be mechanical and management related.

I seem to remember that, prior to NPAS, Lippetts Hill managed to average some 9FH per day with three EC145s. Most of the time, one engineer was available or on call. To get all three up for a weekend event, such as Notting Hill, would mean some 6 weeks of preparations to clear close to 50FH of flying time for each, and then there was defect control and finally recovery from that tasking. Not easy with limited staff.

[PANews]

It is said that NPAS (or a person in NPAS) were horrified how the Met made their maintenance work. This was an organisation that started up around 1980 and built up expertise focussed on the aircraft in their charge (successively Bell 222, AS355, EC145) to make it work. In the early days there may have been some eyebrows lifted in surprise at the style but in later years less so. As Rigga stated they produced the goods when needed.

It worked but it was not how things were to be done in the new regime.

The operatives were made redundant. The maintenance was transferred to Airbus at Oxford.

Unfortunately, as anyone who is familiar with the maintenance line up at Oxford will testify, there are lines of EC135 and AS350 and 355 in bits but not a sign of any BO105 or BK117 derivatives other than the newly arrived NPAS airframes. In short they may as well have sent Oxford three Mil Mi-8s for all the expertise that they had. They have been behind the curve ever since, even as they got the hang of maintaining the engineer hungry 145s NPAS pulled the PBH to save money.

[Cabby]

Doncaster Sheffield Airport may be closing according to different news outlets.

Will NPAS move their new hangar or become night watchmen for Peel which happened at another airport a few years ago.

Peel owners news statement.

https://www.business-live.co.uk/economic-development/doncaster-sheffield-airport-could-set-24477162

[SilsoeSid]

Fixed wing move to North Weald… sorted :ok:

[PANews]

There are several stories in publication on this. Wikipedia gives a fair outline.

This may be a tactic.

In their dealings with other properties (they are after all simply property dealers and have no expansive knowledge or love of aircraft) they have changed their ownership percentages to suit their war chest. They managed to divest themselves of Teesside to the local authority after threats to close and may have thoughts of doing the same here. It is notable the Peel go where UK emergency services aviation goes. Liverpool [John Lennon, once home of Merseyside and Cheshire], Manchester City [police and air ambulance], Sheffield City [South Yorkshire], Teesside [NEASU] and DSA. They have NPAS and 2Excel the ever growing suppliers of Coast Guard fixed wing. So they are not without customers and 25 year leases at DSA but the Peel empire is only partly based on aviation.

Sheffield City was closed because it was failing and was a threat to their new project DSA [when it was Robin Hood]. That wrong footed South Yorkshire but they are still there using an industrial unit.

Another hard runway down the road at Gamston/Retford is now reducing aviation in favour of car testing.... possibly because there is simply insufficient aviation there. The industry is in a state but hopefully it will pass and the people of Doncaster and Sheffield will be off on holiday again and this [like Sheffield City] will just be a bad taste.

[Fuzz Burner]

Fixed wing move to North Weald… sorted :ok:

No runway lights!

[SilsoeSid]

No runway lights!
Back to the idea of having a main hub base and the operational aircraft being based at airfields across the ‘N’ n n nation :ok:

Or was that an idea that came up earlier from the great unwashed?

[helihub]

Article written by a respected aviation journalist, rather than the general mass media

https://www.regionalgateway.net/doncaster-sheffield-airport-faces-uncertain-future/

[FloaterNorthWest]

There are several stories in publication on this. Wikipedia gives a fair outline.

This may be a tactic.

In their dealings with other properties (they are after all simply property dealers and have no expansive knowledge or love of aircraft) they have changed their ownership percentages to suit their war chest. They managed to divest themselves of Teesside to the local authority after threats to close and may have thoughts of doing the same here. It is notable the Peel go where UK emergency services aviation goes. Liverpool [John Lennon, once home of Merseyside and Cheshire], Manchester City [police and air ambulance], Sheffield City [South Yorkshire], Teesside [NEASU] and DSA. They have NPAS and 2Excel the ever growing suppliers of Coast Guard fixed wing. So they are not without customers and 25 year leases at DSA but the Peel empire is only partly based on aviation.

Sheffield City was closed because it was failing and was a threat to their new project DSA [when it was Robin Hood]. That wrong footed South Yorkshire but they are still there using an industrial unit.

Another hard runway down the road at Gamston/Retford is now reducing aviation in favour of car testing.... possibly because there is simply insufficient aviation there. The industry is in a state but hopefully it will pass and the people of Doncaster and Sheffield will be off on holiday again and this [like Sheffield City] will just be a bad taste.

PANews,

As usual, Wikipedia is way off the mark suggesting Peel are following emergency services aviation.

Manchester Barton - They jointly owned Barton with Manchester City Council under the Manchester Shipping Canal Company. GMP moved to Barton under this ownership when the City Centre site was found not to be suitable for the AS355. When the joint ownership came to a natural end, Peel continued ownership and put money in to develop the airport. In fact they built a new home for the Air Ambulance in the Manchester Heliport site. The plan was to develop scheduled flights from it but the business case wasn’t there. It is probably kept now due to its closeness to Peel’s HQ at the Trafford Centre.

Liverpool John Lennon - This was bought as part of their ports and airports business which forms part of the even bigger Mersey Gateway Project a multi-billion pound project that links Manchester and Liverpool via the Manchester Ship Canal, which Peel own, along with huge amounts of land either side which are being developed for commercial and residential property. When passenger numbers at JLLA grow to a level where increased security meant that the Police crews had to go through the main airport security, it became unviable so the new base at Woodvale was built.

Sheffield - This was bought for the land. It was a huge brown field site near the City Centre that was never viable as a commercial airport. Even after Peel bought, then closed the runway, SYASU continued to operate from it. It was NPAS that closed the base.

Teeside and DSA - Bought as part of expanding Peel Airports Group and to be run as commercial airports. The above article highlights this and the reason why it is under review.

You cannot run commercial ventures solely on the little rent provided by NPAS or 2Excel.

Peel are a very successful property company that identify opportunities at low prices and then develop them with private and government money. If they prove successful they keep them in the portfolio, if they don’t, they sell them. Nothing to do with following emergency services aviation.

FNW

[PANews]

FNW, the reference to Wiki was only so I did not have to give chapter and verse on the broader history of the company.

I note your comment on the rental value of NPAS and 2Excel but a letter has emerged on Twitter from the Mayor of South Yorkshire to the local MP that suggests that others are involved. Apparently Peel are trying to get a £20M loan off the local authority. Discussions were paused while Peel opened their books..... (pregnant pause?)

It seems that there are other loans out there £3.5M by the MCA in 2018/19 and another £5.02M in March 2020. These amounts are in addition to the local investment in infrastructure the Gateway East Site and the Great Yorkshire Way. I assume the 'MCA' is Coast Guard money and, if my assumption is correct, very much in addition to the 2Excel rent and a real time MCA investment in the services provided by 2Excel. It seems that 'government' is actively pouring loads of money into the airport in loans and builds.

****** Although the letter on-line at Twitter clearly states "MCA" reading through the Twitter account of Oliver Coppard the Mayor of South Yorkshire also later states "... loan would have been on top of the £8 million already loaned to them by South Yorkshire." I now think that by MCA he may mean something akin to Metropolitan County Authority as the numbers are the same. The fact that there are other MCA's on the airfield was just a diversion.



I am not greatly into airlines but I read the loss of Wizz as not a major change. Wizz announced they were setting up a base at DSA in 2020. It appeared to be a statement that Wizz were 'basing an A320 there' so if, two years later, they are no longer having that one aircraft base it is not as if there is a massive change in fortunes - indeed was it ever instigated?

Lots of land has already been turned over to house building and there appears to be more areas where that might continue. Hence my query about tactics.

[MightyGem]

Fixed wing move to North Weald… sorted :ok:
Oooo....Sid. Commenting on NPAS stuff. Have you retired from Police flying?

[MightyGem]

Here are the stats for 2021/22. The slow decline continues. Even with the inclusion of Fixed Wing Action Calls the number is less than last year. Flying hours are down on last year as well with the total now less than half of what was being flown prior to NPAS.

The overall cost of Air Support is down by 4.4%, but there is the usual mix of some paying more than last year and some less. The way that NPAS charge Forces continues to be somewhat of an enigma. Going by the easy option of cost per Actioned Call, we have at opposite ends of the scale, GMP at £1215 per call and Cambridge at a whopping £10,382 per call!

So, I asked NPAS the following:
With regards to charges made to Forces for Air Support, how is that broken down? A couple of items don’t appear to make sense.
Cambridgeshire were charged £705,951 and had only 68 Actioned Calls, which works out at £10,382 per call. GMP paid £1,325,186 and had 1091 Calls, which equates to only £1215 per call. Amongst the other Forces charges per Call range from £1413 to £8258. Why is there such a variation?

Their answer:
Their answer: The action calls to service model has not been used in NPAS for 2 financial years. When it was used it was based on the previous years calls so there wasn’t a direct correlation between Forces contributions in a financial year and the actioned calls for the same year.

Is there a “standing charge” raised as soon as an aircraft arrives on scene, regardless of how long it remains? If so, how much is that?
The new funding model sees Forces contributing towards the fixed costs of NPAS within a regional structure as well as making a contribution towards variable costs based on an agreed regional user requirement.

Well that wasn't much help so I went back to them:
In order to help me further understand the charging regime for Air Support, would it be possible to have a breakdown of how the amounts for Cambridgeshire and GMP(for the period 2021-22) were arrived at?
West Yorkshire Police can advise that amounts for all Forces are arrived at by applying the National Police Chiefs Council Direct Cost Charging model. This is done on a Regional Basis and then Forces within those regions agree how much each Force will pay as their share of the regional total.

The total regional charges are established by allocating three types of cost per Region. Those costs are Fixed Costs of Bases, Variable Costs of Flying Hours and an allocation of NPAS Operating Overhead.

As clear as mud then. :ugh:



https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x1014/2021_22_dff83a88723335841433db47db7849c3e09eb79d.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x729/hours_cc0990869c2262413af15427a349b49bd1da05f4.png

[J.A.F.O.]

Thanks for taking the time to do all of that MG.

It's been almost a decade now and it would seem nobody but me, you and a handful of others really cares what has happened to air support in the UK. I am now just thankful that I saw and played a very small part in the golden years.

[PANews]

A depressing read MG but I guess wholly expected.

[Cabby]

Doncaster Airport owners Peel are making an announcement on Monday at 11.30 regarding the future of the airport.

NOTAM - Airport is closed for an hour 11.30-12.30 so the staff can attend the meeting.

Wonder if the NPAS management have been invited?

[SilsoeSid]

‘I’ve heard’ that the South Yorkshire Mayor wants to take over PCC powers and put SYP into the hat of taking over NPAS. This could possibly be a move in order to safeguard Doncaster Airport with the proviso that government money will guarantee the future of the airport and with it, job security for the community.

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/oliver-coppard-could-take-over-south-yorkshire-police-commissioner-powers-from-2024-3696144

Well, stranger things have happened :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

…. or b.BREAKING NEWS
Flights to start 'winding down' as bosses say Doncaster Sheffield Airport will close.
https://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2022-09-26/bosses-confirm-closure-of-doncaster-sheffield-airport

[Cabby]

NPAS announcement.
No mention of where the planes are going. Wonder if they can move the new hangar?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-63052160?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA

[PANews]

It is unlikely to be that quick and NPAS do have a big empty hangar at North Weald that is nearly identical barring a AvGas bowser. It would be daylight only but it would be an option while they consider moving the Doncaster hangar.

problem there is that no one with the right landing aids really wants them.

[Cabby]

According to local DSA aviators, NPAS along with other DSA operators have been told by Peel that they have to be out by 1430L on the 18th November.

Any news on the new fixed wing base for NPAS?

[md 600 driver]

Surely the police would have got a lease on the land before building a hangar

if not that’s a huge waste of taxpayers money someone wants taking to task

[Fortyodd2]

I stopped using the word "surely" in matters concerning the Police a long time ago :ugh:

[PANews]

The identical hangar at North Weald came with a 25 year lease so it may be similar for DSA. It all depends on what the small print says of course.

North Weald is no good as there are no ILS but it is a potential home to go to while the rights and wrongs are argued about.

2Excel, a far more savvy organisation are in the same boat of course and they need the same facilities as NPAS. They moved their governmental air support operation into DSA in 2017, the same time as NPAS [sort of] moved in and completed their facility.

[PANews]

A strangely final sounding post appeared on the Doncaster NPAS Twitter Account yesterday.In recent days the main parties to the development I had contacted were holding off on comment until later in the month. Even if it is useless there is a lot of activity going on in the background between the politicians and, I thought, all interested residents of the hangars.

Even as everyone else was apparently doing their best on October 6 NPAS tweeted a video clip of G-POLV UKP155 and a very final sounding “the last time she will depart DSA”. She has now been turned over to maintenance support of Gama Aviation and “they will be looking after her until a new operating base is identified. We also say goodbye to three of our staff and contractors who have supported the operation at Donny.”

Perhaps that November date is hard and fast after all? But it does seem an early white flag,

Apparently in time with the announcement about G-POLV and some staff "leaving forever" that aircraft flew DSA to North Weald yesterday. It would therefore seem that all fixed wing operations will shortly become daylight only from North Weald until something permanent is created (post November). I understand that Teesside are interested and they ran the NEASU fixed wing from there. That was effectively a 24/7 operation.

[Cabby]

A strangely final sounding post appeared on the Doncaster NPAS Twitter Account yesterday.In recent days the main parties to the development I had contacted were holding off on comment until later in the month. Even if it is useless there is a lot of activity going on in the background between the politicians and, I thought, all interested residents of the hangars.

Even as everyone else was apparently doing their best on October 6 NPAS tweeted a video clip of G-POLV UKP155 and a very final sounding “the last time she will depart DSA”. She has now been turned over to maintenance support of Gama Aviation and “they will be looking after her until a new operating base is identified. We also say goodbye to three of our staff and contractors who have supported the operation at Donny.”

Perhaps that November date is hard and fast after all? But it does seem an early white flag,

Apparently in time with the announcement about G-POLV and some staff "leaving forever" that aircraft flew DSA to North Weald yesterday. It would therefore seem that all fixed wing operations will shortly become daylight only from North Weald until something permanent is created (post November). I understand that Teesside are interested and they ran the NEASU fixed wing from there. That was effectively a 24/7 operation.

How about Elvington if the P68's don't need an ILS? They might bump into the Hamster off Top Gear ;)

Will GAMA be moving with the fixed wings, or travelling to when they are needed?

Will be interesting to see if a tender is advertised for the new base, and will a tender be offered to remove of the current DSA hangar?

[ShyTorque]

My understanding is that NPAS had secured a long lease at Doncaster. Mind you, it took them so long to get airworthy that a fair amount of it was spent even before they first operated any aircraft from there…….

[PANews]

Cabby, my understanding is that they need airport standard landing aids and traffic control in the dark. There are no other 24/7 options that will accept a tiny P68 mixing it with the big boys. Both the Dutch and the Belgian police proved that big airports are fraught for light police aircraft (albeit Cessna singles) when operating from Amsterdam and Brussels.

Last chance saloon may be somewhere not too major like Teesside.

It seems Gama engineers are moving to North Weald because the hangar there is the same size as the DSA hangar.

[Cabby]

Cabby, my understanding is that they need airport standard landing aids and traffic control in the dark. There are no other 24/7 options that will accept a tiny P68 mixing it with the big boys. Both the Dutch and the Belgian police proved that big airports are fraught for light police aircraft (albeit Cessna singles) when operating from Amsterdam and Brussels.

Last chance saloon may be somewhere not too major like Teesside.

It seems Gama engineers are moving to North Weald because the hangar there is the same size as the DSA hangar.

Thanks PAN, I looked up Teesside Airports current status, and noted the Tees Valley Mayor bought it off Peel for £40m, but the press say its losing £10m a year.

Part of the airport land has been given to a private company who had previous links with Manston airfield. Not sure how thats happened?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teesside_International_Airport

Teesside looks a quiet place, so the P68's shouldn't affect any commercial traffic, but how long will it be open for, with it being a money pit?

Can a small regional airport survive in between Leeds and Newcastle airports when its costing the tax payer £10,000,000 every year! :confused:

May not be the best place for NPAS to build another expensive hangar.

[SilsoeSid]

May not be the best place for NPAS to build another expensive hangar.At an SMT meeting somewhere in the north of England…

“E-E-Exactly! And that is what is so brilliant about it! We will catch the ever watchful PPRuNErs totally off guard! Doing precisely what we have done eighteen times before is exactly the last thing they’ll expect us to do this time!”
:ok:

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x1452/01a30391_47dd_4951_80c3_1c89e3ce5b9d_93c7c255490efe6d6023f78 3f9ee9d367eb05176.jpeg

[SilsoeSid]

Maybe it is time to have a separate servicing base and operate individual fixed wing craft from ‘possibly capable’ locations that are already NPAS bases; such as Birmingham, Bournemouth, Exeter, Newcastle, North Weald, St. Athan, or Redhill. I would imagine any future recruitments would be attractive with more nationally spread locations :ok:

[PANews]

Seems I have been misled by technology.

The Flight Tracker [FlightRadar24] shows text that the P68 last flew from DSA to North Weald on 6/10 but the track map on the same app relating to the same flight also shows that flight to have been from Doncaster to Hurn where Gama have their main maintenance base.

The result is the same, one NPAS permanently out of DSA, but the detail about North Weald is now suspect.

[Beafer]

Cleveland Police PPC Steve Turner said he is a big fan of drones. The force now has 29 drone pilots.

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/more-drones-being-used-cleveland-25205095

[ericferret]

[QUOTE=PANews;11309710]Cabby, my understanding is that they need airport standard landing aids and traffic control in the dark. There are no other 24/7 options that will accept a tiny P68 mixing it with the big boys. Both the Dutch and the Belgian police proved that big airports are fraught for light police aircraft (albeit Cessna singles) when operating from Amsterdam and Brussels.

Last chance saloon may be somewhere not too major like Teesside.

The coastguard operate 24/7 from Humberside which is not too far away.
You would think they could have a similar arrangement for the P68.
Diversion fuel for bad weather to one of the airports with full aids.

[ShyTorque]

Retford/Gamston is only a few minutes from DSA and has runway lighting. Shame they’ve recently closed the relevant runway.

[PANews]

Not truly a Rotorheads or NPAS matter as it relates to a foreign power and coast guard and air ambulances.

This morning the French announced that they are updating their emergency services communications system. If you will their replacement for their Airwave.The consortium led by Airbus and Capgemini was selected by the French Ministry of the Interior and Overseas territories for the role of Package 2 integrator for the Réseau Radio du Futur (RRF – radio network of the future), the secure and resilient broadband network for domestic security and emergency rescue forces. This pioneer project, led by France, is key to modernising domestic security forces.
The Réseau Radio du Futur will be a national, secure and high-speed (4G and 5G) priority mobile communication system, with a high level of resilience in order to guarantee the continuum of security and emergency rescue missions on a daily basis, including in the event of a crisis or major event. RRF intends to equip up to 400,000 users in the security and emergency rescue forces, such as the national gendarmerie, the national police force, firefighters and other civil security forces.
It will allow these users to benefit from many new data-centred services, such as video, in particular.

With the notification of the RRF construction contract to the selected manufacturers, the Ministry of the Interior began construction of the future network in September. The construction and then the tests of a first version of the RRF will extend over a period of 19 months. , making it possible to secure the technical robustness of the solution and its appropriation by future users. From 2024, the RRF will become the backbone of operational communications for security, emergency services and crisis management actors.

The race is on! A mere four years (barring problems I guess).

If they manage it, that will be four years before the UK ESN is in place (latest guess 2028) and of course ESN was supposed in place in 2017, five years ago.

I guess we can see blame being levelled at Truss and a long line of Home Secretary’s but I think it may be a bit closer to the coal face than that……

[the_flying_cop]

Cabby, my understanding is that they need airport standard landing aids and traffic control in the dark. There are no other 24/7 options that will accept a tiny P68 mixing it with the big boys. Both the Dutch and the Belgian police proved that big airports are fraught for light police aircraft (albeit Cessna singles) when operating from Amsterdam and Brussels.



We managed fine at Manchester with our Islander.

[handysnaks]

Retford/Gamston is only a few minutes from DSA and has runway lighting. Shame they’ve recently closed the relevant runway.
I think you may find that they have even more recently re-opened it.😊

[ShyTorque]

Something to do with an airfield re-opening is always good news!

[Fortyodd2]

"We managed fine at Manchester with our Islander."
You certainly did Flying Cop - but your Islander didn't run on Avgas.............

[Mike Flynn]

Cleveland Police PPC Steve Turner said he is a big fan of drones. The force now has 29 drone pilots.

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/more-drones-being-used-cleveland-25205095

Cost effective when it comes to missing persons and similar operations. A lot of high speed chases are also non productive using helicopters when you look at sentences given to car and drug crime criminals.

In my opinion police car pursuits are not worth the risk of collision with innocent parties.

[ReefPilot]

Cost effective when it comes to missing persons and similar operations. A lot of high speed chases are also non productive using helicopters when you look at sentences given to car and drug crime criminals.

In my opinion police car pursuits are not worth the risk of collision with innocent parties.

But they are extremely good fun....

[Cabby]

According to some reports in Westminster, the last Home Secretary wasn't happy about planned reductions in her office budget. The new chancellor has ordered reductions in all departments.

Civil servants are also unhappy about possible compulsory redundancies. 91,000 jobs mentioned..

Will the rumoured financial cuts affect the NPAS budget, and its fleet?

https://www.itv.com/news/2022-06-09/government-could-use-compulsory-redundancies-to-cut-civil-servants-by-91000

[backtothebeat]

Cost effective when it comes to missing persons and similar operations. A lot of high speed chases are also non productive using helicopters when you look at sentences given to car and drug crime criminals.

In my opinion police car pursuits are not worth the risk of collision with innocent parties.
Missing person searches are probably the least productive use of an expensive to run helicopter. Because the vast amount of time the aircaft is tasked with an inappropriate search, on an incident which isnt a "true" missing person, and is normally there to tick a box to say "area searched to no gain". (with the obvious exceptions of those jobs where its a genuine misper, there to be found,)

The loss of air support provision since NPAS has proliferated Police pursuits exponentialy over the last ten years.
Where once a protracted pursuit was very rare, it is now a daily occurance.
You cannot give criminals free reign over the road network in the knowledge they will not be pursued.
Banning pursuits was played with by various Forces (Notts and Humbs come to mind) with disastrous results.

Its the age old question of the kid pinching mars bars from the local shop.. the bean counters and politicians may say that its only a mars bar, vastly out of proportion to the costs of investigating, detaining and prosecuting.. which is fine until its your shop that hes in every day pinching from, and until you investigate it you dont know that he's pinching from fourteen other shops.

Sentencing criminals is not part of policing. It is independant for a reason. Once you join law enforcement a tough early lesson is to see past the policitics, get on with the job in hand, and do the best you can as an indiviudual with the tools you are given.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

I think backtothebeat's excellent post deserves more than a mere 'like' - the points made are extremely pertinent. W Mids was one of the forces that believed the advice (I think it was a Home Office report by a Dr Best) that pursuits were dangerous and unproductive; training and policy changed (no T-Pack, follow-only) until a couple of incidents (including one I sadly was directly involved in which led to the deaths of 2 police officers from a neighbouring force) obliged them to change their minds. As officers directly involved with the work had pointed out, in an urban area many of the vehicle crimes are associated with other offences (burglary being one of the most common) so reducing the success-rate of criminals evading capture had a wider effect on community safety. I also experienced the "waste of police time" accusation when, having completed a search in the Wilts police a/c, the police observer was told of a foot pursuit nearby involving a scrote who'd nicked a bottle of something from the Off-Licence down the road. It was on our route home to Devizes, so we spent about 6 minutes locating the miscreant and orbiting him until the bobbies made their arrest - there were 'letters to the editor' about misuse of police assets, but as b-t-t-beat pointed out the offender had history of targeting the same premises and it was a good day for the owner to see justice being served for once.

[ShyTorque]

I agree that some “misper” searches can be very resource hungry. I was involved in some that were a complete waste of resources… in some cases because the persons weren’t actually missing. A couple of examples:

One involved a so-called vulnerable person who had disappeared from a care home in the midlands. He was found safe and well the following day, having decided to take a holiday at Blackpool and was at the seaside funfair enjoying himself. The search tied up the force helicopter for a whole day and part of the next.

A tourist had been reported missing to the police after she failed to return a bicycle to a countryside hire shop at the end of the day. A significant percentage of the local police, including the force helicopter, were called to an RV point near the hire shop for an operational briefing. As the briefing was taking place, the missing lady appeared with the bicycle on her car’s roof rack. She explained that as far as she was concerned, she had hired the bicycle for 24 hours and therefore she was returning it 24 hours later.

The first job in particular was an instance of when a drone could have sufficed at far less expense.

However, vehicle pursuits are better done with a helicopter, for what should be obvious reasons - but only if the helicopter is close enough to get on scene at the time. Unfortunately, those in charge of NPAS failed to understand that. Reducing the number of helicopter bases by almost half and replacing them with an unsuitable fixed wing based some forty five minutes flying time away was never going to work. A fixed wing aircraft can patrol an area more economically and for longer than a helicopter but other than that it has no practical advantage, especially if it flies no faster than the helicopters it replaces and takes far longer to get airborne in the first place. A helicopter can land almost anywhere and can transport personnel and search dogs. It can also transport personnel from the scene, such as those needing urgent medical assistance, where there is no other resource to do it.

[Cabby]

There appears to have been a number of FOI requests to NPAS.
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/body/npas

[chopper2004]

"We managed fine at Manchester with our Islander."
You certainly did Flying Cop - but your Islander didn't run on Avgas.............


Speaking of islanders, the Garda are looking to replace their Islander pair and add an additional help, under 32 million Euro plan.

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/2022/12/26/garda-to-spend-over-32m-on-upgrading-aircraft-fleet/

cheers

[SilsoeSid]

Wishing you all a Happy & Safe New Year with the very best of wishes with whatever 2023 brings to the world of Police Aviation.
:ok:

[Art E. Fischler-Reisen]

Rumour says that NPAS staff were seen at a certain midlands airport a couple of days ago. Eyeing up the territory again, perhaps?

[Brutal]

Which one?

[Cabby]

Rumour says that NPAS staff were seen at a certain midlands airport a couple of days ago. Eyeing up the territory again, perhaps?

Looking for a job, or the Duty Free? ;)

[ShyTorque]

Or, maybe looking for a new op base?

[Warren Peace]

Seems I have been misled by technology.

The Flight Tracker [FlightRadar24] shows text that the P68 last flew from DSA to North Weald on 6/10 but the track map on the same app relating to the same flight also shows that flight to have been from Doncaster to Hurn where Gama have their main maintenance base.

The result is the same, one NPAS permanently out of DSA, but the detail about North Weald is now suspect.


You ought to be looking at 360Radar.co.uk in order to get the complete unfiltered picture.